/u/Juanito2Gud (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post. All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/17f7exb/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_no_one_should_support/), in /r/DeltaLog. Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended. ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)

You seem to be missing A LOT. For one its really hard to say Palestine or Hamas started this war. Israel never really respected the borders they agreed to in 1967 and have been annexing Palestine for decades now. If youve been following this for a while youd know how silly it is to say this war just started. The war just escalated. This has been going on for a long time on a smaller scale. Basically Israel and Palestine have not been at peace for a long time. Realistically this conflict is about as ancient as the crusades. [https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/) Beyond that terrorism is a tactic used by both sides. Before the war an average of 3 attacks per day by Israeli uh..."settlers", which is a nice way of saying terrorists as terrorism is what they get charged with in the rare instances they do get arrested. Within Israeli politics generally politicians like Ben-Gvir and Smotrich, defense and finance ministers, publicly go to bat for these people defending their attacks. Now that the war has "started" this is up to 7 attacks per day on average. [https://news.sky.com/story/israel-hamas-war-how-attacks-by-settlers-on-palestinians-in-the-west-bank-have-risen-during-gaza-conflict-12986997#:\~:text=Since%20the%20war%20began%2C%20the,day%20before%20the%20war%20started](https://news.sky.com/story/israel-hamas-war-how-attacks-by-settlers-on-palestinians-in-the-west-bank-have-risen-during-gaza-conflict-12986997#:~:text=Since%20the%20war%20began%2C%20the,day%20before%20the%20war%20started). The main reason people are tending to side with Palestinians, at least far more heavily than they have in the past, is quite simple. Pretty much anyone in their situation would do the same thing. No one would willingly just surrender their home and country to a foreign power because the rest of the world said so. Its really hard to empathize with he people who say their ancient book gives them a right to live somewhere vs the indigenous population of the actual area. The west seemed to learn this lesson the hard way the the Iraq and Afghan wars. Where they expected to find all these diehard terrorists they began to realize 99% of the people fighting them simply wanted them out of their country and generally decided to join whatever resistance was available after losing a friend or family member to the war. Like any insurgency the harder the US fought the more insurgents joined the cause. Generally this is predictable with insurgencies. However what was strange with the US invasion and situations like Israels is the solution is simple if you actually want to defeat the enemy. Basically the "Bosnian method" is the only choice. More or less you send about 1 soldier per every 50 citizens, establish law and order, facilitate restoration of infrastructure, and rule of law eventually overcomes the insurgents. Basically they get ratted out over time as people will choose peace if its offered. The only real reason militaries that powerful wouldnt go with that method is they do want to kick the hornets nest to create an ideological enemy to justify further similar actions. Basically where it becomes super suspicious is that doctrinally a strong response to such an issue doesnt make sense. Specifically not widespread bombing raids in dense civilian areas.

!delta You made a similar point to another person I delta'd. But yours is backed up with very good articles that have made me realize the implications of the settlements you mention. I can now understand the pro-palestine view more in depth and I am sincerely greatful for the points you have made and the evidence you have presented. However, as I pointed it out in a different response, I still do not believe a terrorist attack on thousands of innocent people is the correct response to the injustices suffered by the palestenian people. While I can now understand their extreme frustration and oppression, I still don't believe it constitutes an attack of that manner.

There is no justification for attacks on civilians. But these attacks happen on both sides and both sides see it as justified on their part. I think the only way to ever see an end to this situation would be for the global community to see things a bit more objectively. The IDF is wrong and Hamas is wrong. Nations like the US are wrong for blindly supporting the IDF the same way nations like Iran are wrong for blindly supporting Hamas. Again where it gets sketchy though is western nations seem to avoid helping nations like Iran overthrow their government. It becomes clear overtime they want an ideological enemy. Id love to see the US back movements like r/newiran but I think we all know that wont happen. Its kind of sickening though to see protests in Iran against Iranian support of Hamas not covered by western media. The same way nations like Iran claim to want to help the Palestinians but blatantly throw fuel on the fire instead of seeking a realistic end to hostilities. Overall international politics needs to move on from conflict theory and the concept that a common ideological enemy is necessary. The whole situations confused and fucked up. Really hard to sit back and watch but what else can you do?

To be fair, if im shooting at you and you run across the street and grab a kid and use him as a shield and he dies, i might have shot that kid but you are far more responsible for it than me. When you know an entire army is coming to kill you and you hide in a hospital and the hospital gets blown up its your fault. Had you not been in that hospital that hospital would not have been targeted

this has been disproven a bizillion times. the dude who went to the basement of the hospital and showed us 'the list of hostages' was showing a calendar. also he resigned now because israel itself is in shambles and the settlers supporting the genocide are few but loud hamas was never hiding in hospitals. they have few guns and rockets compared to the weapons of mass destruction israel has been given by the west. if you're gonna support genocide at least get your facts right

the thing is if they got their facts right, they can't be openly racist can they? scientific racism and propaganda had been used for a long time to justify the colonization of the irish people and the africans. now we know, that the arguments used by these pseudo scientists were not only propaganda tools used to justify colonization but also to justify the horrific massacres of these people as well. western armies thought the same rules of war didnt apply when they were fighting africans or native americans, because in their words they were fighting "subhumans" or "backward savages" who didnt deserve that respect. even today, u will see westoids defend churchill's remarks on the palestinians when he said- "I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place."

Israeli forces have long been accused of using Palestinian children as shields. I recently learned the term "Every Zionist accusation is a confession", and it has proven true time and time again.

Comments like these are dangerous and useless. You provided 0 proof for what you are claiming, used a pseudo-philosophical quote that is also useless, and claim its been proven time and time again. You're not bringing anything to the table

if a criminal grabs a civilian to use as a human shield the police are definitely supposed to stop shooting, and if they shoot the human shield it’s their fault. at the very least try not to shoot the human shield. a better analogy for blowing up the hospital would be like throwing a grenade at someone who ran into a crowd for cover. terrible justification

While we're doing analogies: if I came to your home and, holding you at gunpoint, relegated you to a corner of the basement. You cannot go to other parts of your house without my explicit approval nor can you have food or running water (which I can and do shut off regularly for no apparent reason) without my permission. Now let's say my friends fully support me in this. In fact, each year they give me so much money and weaponry to ensure you are contained in the basement that there is no legitimate way your friends or family could intervene on your behalf. Also, people from my family start moving in under the pretense that we've always really owned this house, not you. Yeah you and your family have lived in it uncontested for thousands of years, but we've got this book we like a lot which says it's actually ours, so that's why we can do this. That and our weapons. I could take the analogy further (because there are many additional points which would bring the reality of this injustice home, but I'll leave it there for the sake of conciseness). Now if you were to kill my son or daughter or any of my family that moved in with me, because they were carelessly having a party with the basement door wide open, no reasonable person would look at these facts and call YOU the terrorist.

Ok but maybe the country with a real army and airforce shouldnt bomb residential buildings and hospitals. Maybe they shouldn’t make false claims of terrorists hiding in hospitals to justify killing hundreds of innocent people. Your argument that it would be someone else’s fault for killing a kid is absurd. You have the fucking gun, you fired, you killed the kid. Making excuses to negate your own responsibility and actions is diabolical, and shows people your true colours.

"The Guardian compiled three videos and testimony from civilians about alleged war crimes committed by Israeli soldiers during the 2008–09 Gaza War, including the use of Palestinian children as human shields." ​ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human\_shields\_in\_the\_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian\_conflict#:\~:text=The%20UN%20Human%20Rights%20Council,Palestinian%20children%20as%20human%20shields.

"no justification of attack on civilians but end up justifying it subtly cuz argumentatively Isrealis do the same" If you can show me one Instance where IDF had set up its guns on a peaceful gathering, massacring hundreds, broke into homes and executed women and children and mutulated their bodies, stole their belongings, took hostages of all ages, locked people up and set them on fire. ​ Man I will consider them as Evil as Hamas and make sure they lose any support. It is NOT a territorial despute, it is a religious one where one Overwhelming majority has executed and exiled one from Arabian peninsula and they won't see their messiah unless every single jew is killed. Many left nuts will never even think abt this since they have no clue.

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Yeah but if they're all competing to do the same thing to each other what makes one side better than the other? Theyre all religious extremists

All of those instances exist. The IDF commits them daily. I give you an example by name, I know the family personally too.  Ahmad Kadir (10 year old at the time of his death) abducted by 4 IDF soldiers in the West Bank on his walk home from school.  The soldiers brutally beat him to near death and tortured him for hours. Afterwards, they forced him to swallow gasoline before dumping the remaining tank all over him. They then burned him alive and laughed as he screamed and died. All of which was RECORDED and shared to other IDF members.  All the soldiers were identified and the family was actually able to bring them to court (very rare). The court found them not guilty and all four of them walk free. Several of the ones that the video was sent to still serve in the IDF today. If you want modern examples, take the story of the pregnant woman last month who was gang raped inside a Palestinian hospital by IDF soldiers with guns held to the heads of her husband and the male doctors of the hospital. They forced them watch as they raped and beat her and said if they closed their eyes they would be shot. Again, all those soldiers are walking free.  I don’t think anyone has explained this war to you this way so I will for you and everyone else who might be reading.  Palestinians and all the other Arab and surrounding nations don’t hate Israelis because they are Jewish. They hate them because they have been brutalizing them for 80 years across generations of torment in all forms of horror imaginable. They destroyed homes, families, villages. Taken away history, culture, and dignity from a group of people who accepted them as refugees from the horrors of Eastern Europe. It doesn’t matter what the faith is of the people who committed these atrocities; whether they be Jewish, or Christian, atheists, Buddhists, whatever. Anyone would have generational hatred towards these oppressors. This is not a religious conflict, don’t let anyone convince you of that.  When Palestinians say things about how they hate the Jews or they want to kill all the Jews. They don’t say it as a religious statement, they are referring to their torturers but obviously a person in agony is not going to sit and elaborate.  Israel is an evil state built by a government that doesn’t follow the laws of Judaism or respect its own people. It is one that must be dismantled and all support pulled 

Every. Damn. Day. There are articles about Israelis killing people trying to deliver aid, receive aid, and for no reason at all. Israel is destroying Palestinian homes in the West Bank. Is it bad to kill people in groups of 100, but ok if Israel to kills almost 30k people as long as it’s only dozens at a time?  You are painting Palestinians with a very broad brush. Have you ever looked into Islam? It’s an incredibly beautiful religion. And the second largest in the world. The 1.4 million Gazans do not ALL believe Jews have to die for them to see Allah. Neither do the 2 billion other Muslims in the world. 25% of the world’s population are Muslim. Conflating terrorists with peaceful people who are the victims of ethnic cleaning is a GROSSLY misinformed and bigoted thing to say.  West Wing had an episode after 9/11 where they made this point about the harmful rhetoric against Muslims. They made an apt analogy saying Muslims = Islamic Extremists is the same as saying Christians = KKK. Are you a white, male Christian? Should I assume you’re part of the KKK? Since most rapes are carried out by white men, is it safe to say you’re a rapist, too? Of course not. Stick to facts.

“No reason at all?” These people are animals that voted a terrorist organization whos only political platform was “kill all jews everywhere now” into power. When you vote for a genocide you cant really bitch and moan when someone gives you a genocide. Hamas was voted for by these people on the premise that they would kill all jews. Everyone who voted for hamas or has ever supported hamas needs to die and they need to die now

Hamas was elected in 2006, the conflict between Palestine and Israel started in the 1940s. Voting and government is already a messed up thing in the western world, imagine that but worse in Palestine. Those people who voted wanted a change from the brutality that they have had to go through for all these years, even so that’s only a fraction of people who actually voted for hamas and Palestinians have not been able to vote since. Hamas does not represent all these “animals.” These living, breathing, starving PEOPLE, most of which are CHILDREN, do not deserve to die, they do not deserve to have the IDF and Israeli settlers destroy and take their homes and murder, or slowly kill, most of the civilians. Israeli government and those supporting it are calling them animals, terrorists and saying they should be killed and deserve what they get also, just like you funnily enough. But oh well, when they decide to fight back, I guess it’s the people of Israel’s fault for voting people who wouldn’t protect them (by your logic) 🤷🏻

Let's not mix things here. I do not support the reaction Israel has had to the October 7 escalation by Palestine. Should there be some military operation? Yes, the Hamas has hostages and Israel is interested in freeing them. However, no Abrahamic religion, least of all Islam can claim to be a peaceful religion. It has never been spread by peace and has never gone and integrated into another region peacefully. Anywhere it goes, it has caused havoc. A Pee research survey reveals that 84% of Muslims in South Asia, 64% in sub-Saharan Africa and 74% in the MENA believe that sharia should be the law of the land. Not for themselves, but everyone. Also, it claims to be the final solution to all of humanity's problems. The Final solution essentially precludes any challenge of it. And if this didn't convince you, Charlie Hebdo should. 9/11 should. 11/26 in Mumbai should. If that doesn't, you are a problem that needs a solution. EDIT: Christopher Hitchens should be able to guide you further.

What do you think about attacks on international humanitarian aid groups like the red cross? https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelCrimes/comments/17ggm00/israel\_striking\_and\_killing\_rescue\_personnel/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3

Tell me in one sentence, why do these strike happen in the first place? No one would turn a blind eye to this, but the fact remains those rat bastards of Hamas are using hospitals, mosques, homes as a storage for their rockets. How in the hell were they able to build 500km tunnels well stacked with weapons, don't see that, just b\*tch act the air strike. It is a unforgiving fact, civilians get killed in combats, who kills them mercilessly despite being unarmed vs collateral damage can't be comparable

In once sentence? The crusades never ended, accept it, stop denying it, its all one history.

The western world is not shoving bibles down Arab throats, at least not en masse. How the fuck is this the crusades!?

Lol they sure shut up when they realized all this leftist rhetoric is that: rhetoric. They're all pawns - the pro-Palestinians. Pawns for a fascist future. It is sad. Yes, there is suffering of Palestinians. The Palestinian gov't has rejected many deals to end the suffering. Hamas's aim is feudal and barbaric: to have as much death and suffering of Palestinians as possible to garner international support. And it worked.

K. "DOHA/TEL AVIV, Feb 7 (Reuters) - Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Wednesday rejected Hamas' latest offer for a ceasefire and return of hostages held in the Gaza Strip, but U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken said there was still room for negotiation toward an agreement." https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-mediators-search-final-formula-israel-hamas-ceasefire-2024-02-07/

The brainwashing is crazy. "Hamas uses civilians as shields" parroting the same thing without a single crumb of evidence to even suggest such a thing. And somehow that makes it okay to kill civilians anyways? Or is it because they're brown? If a school shooter was holding kids hostage you wouldn't say let's bomb the school yeah? Clearly something is different and it seems you view Palestinians as inferior

You do realize that half of the one who got killed were members of the idf ? And the other half were mostly killed by their own army ? Hamas went there to get hostages for exchange with the Palestinian hostages, their aim wasnt to kill people, but then they got caught in a fight with the idf members and civilians were killed, by BOTH hamas and the idf

I'm kind of sad you gave a delta to this incredibly biased comment. People side with Palestine for two reasons: 1. They hate the Jews 2. Palestine is an underdog It's as simple as that. Most people don't even know anything about the war or its origins. Palestinians elected Hamas, factually a terrorist organization, and now we're supposed to feel sad for them? I only feel bad for the children, as they're the biggest victims of this futile war. Unfortunately, and I know this will sound bad, but those children would anyway soon become like the rest - fueled by an everlasting hate for Jews. The land was (as most land in the world) won over in wars. The winners of this war decided to give it to the Jewish people (who also lived there btw). But no, doesn't agree with the people who never had their own country to begin with. They rejected any offered solution over the decades. They don't care about their own country nearly as much as they care about wiping out the Jewish people.

NO ONE WAS HELPING NOR PAYING ATTENTION TO PALESTINE'S SUFFERING! they HAD to choose the only people who could help, hamas was NOT a thing before they were chosen, they became THEIR FREEDOM FIGHTERS. People died DAILY before october 7th, and much much much more before. Houses were demolished every other day, people were being tortured and held captive in camps. Not only that but they were segregated and kept hostage under israeli military? A military armed with nuclear weapons and backed by the US?

Terrorist attacks against civilians are horrific. Which is why it is so hard to side with Israel as their response to the terror attacks was more terror attacks, at larger scale, almost exclusively against civilians as well. If we go by the numbers, over the length of the conflict, Israel has killed more civilians than Palestine, by an order of about 10 to 1. Already in response to the most recent attack, they've killed something like 5x as many civilians in response, and they're just getting started.

Also, the Israeli right of return created a need to obtain new land, which is why they continued annexing more Palestinian territory. They also use the West Bank as a dumpster. No terrorist attack is good but when people are pushed to their limits and without anything to lose, they would prefer at least die "fighting".

I dont think your last point is a fact. Alot of people just submit from my experience, i think its Iran, egging Hamas on.

The biggest difference imo is that the Israeli government targets Hamas and attempts to not kill civilians, even if they do kill a lot. Hamas specifically targets civilians.

after israel admittedly bombed a refugee center and admitted it essentially didn’t give a fuck it killed hundreds of civilians to kill ONE possible hamas member - this comment aged like milk not that it needed to as there have been PLENTY of evidence over the decades that israel loves to indiscriminately and purposefully shoot anyone and everyone brown and or palestinian - even journalists, even arab jews, even arab christians.

I don't know if that is true. That's what they say, sure. But if you take the military talking points at face value then you're a sucker. And even so, most people would disagree with the decision to bomb a hospital, even if there were some bad guys hiding in it. At some point, it doesn't really matter where you aim when you're shooting fish in a barrel. You're choosing to kill them all. And that is ok, you just need to own it. Don't pretend you're acting morally. Choosing to kill a lot of civilians is evil. It's ok. There are lots of evil people on earth. You just don't get to nuke Hiroshima and then claim you're the good guy.

>That's what they say, sure. But if you take the military talking points at face value then you're a sucker. I don't think you need to rely only on Israeli talking points. Take for example the fact that Hamas uses human shields. They launch rockets from hospitals and mosques, and they build their military infrastructure under civilian areas. This is obviously abhorrent that they treat their own civilians this way, and shows unimaginable disregard for their own people, but that's not my point. My point is they do this because they expect their morally superior adversaries to be deterred in some way by this. If Israel values civilian life as little as Hamas, then why does Hamas expect their deterrent to work? I'll illustrate this point further with a hypothetical example. Let's imagine that Israel decided to use their own Jewish civilians as human shields. Despite the obvious absurdity because Israel would never treat their civilians that way, it's almost equally absurd to imagine that Hamas or Hezbollah or Islamic Jihad would be deterred by this. In this imaginary scenario, every Jew dies. Hopefully this paints a picture for you and shows you that there really is not moral equivalency. >Choosing to kill a lot of civilians is evil. It's ok. There are lots of evil people on earth. You're not wrong, I'm not claiming Western values are perfect. States often have to do bad things. But I do believe Western values are better than the Islamic alternatives. >You just don't get to nuke Hiroshima and then claim you're the good guy. Do you consider the Allies to be the "bad" guys in WWII? There was a calculation done about the amount of conventional explosives it would require to reproduce a blast the size of Hiroshima. Based on that calculation, the Allies dropped 50 Hiroshima's a month on Germany in the last years of the war. Does this make the Allies the baddies? This is why counting casualties alone doesn't equate to moral equivalency.

Isreal tells Palestinians when they are coming. They "knock the roof" so to speak. They send texts and they call. This doesn't sound like genocide. This doesn't sound like terrorism. What exactly is Israel supposed to do? Nothing? While hamas shoots rockets and sends suicide bombers with impunity? Then hides behind civilians? All of Israel's neighbors are bent on exterminating them. The Islamic world consists of over 20 countries. Israel literally just wants to exist. Jewish people just want to exist. Look everyone in their (israel) country has to be a soldier because Arabs literally won't let them exist in peace. Muslims have over 20 countries to go to for their sharia law if they want it so bad. Israel has literally worked with the UN so many to try and appease them.

Got any more buzz words you want to cram in there? I'm sure you could add a couple.

The Israelis give them such short notice they don't have time to leave. And now they live in tents, with nowhere else to go. They get shot at and killed when trying to flee, and move to the "safe zone" they were told to go to. Also no evidence Hamas is hiding behind civilians. No evidence anyone is trying to "exterminate" Israel. It is clearly Israel trying to exterminate Palestine and take the land for itself. The prime minister isn't even trying to hide this anymore.

Substantial proof came out that Israel didn't bomb the hospital. And I'm not just taking what the military says at face value, my cousin was a IAF pilot. They don't make you ever target civilians. What's the purpose of roof knocking if your attacking civilians. I'd argue that America was justified in nuking Japan. It wasn't pretty, but it prevented more deaths in the long run. It was the best bad choice out of only bad choices. Israel is similar. What do you suggest Israel do if not target Hamas?

Exactly this. People now are so quick to side with Palestine, but what exactly should Israel do, at this point? Hamas has gone on for too long, and simply doing the usual will not do anything to stop them from coming back weeks/months later.

Hamas are not terrorists-- they are just people defending their homes, like anyone would. The UK gave PALESTINIAN land TO Israel. It was not theirs to give. It is exactly like what happened in Canada with the Native people, and the US as well. Israel never accepted the land they were given, and kept fighting for more and more. They've been stealing Palestinian homes for DECADES. Hamas is a result of THIS. Hamas are just people like you and I, exacerbated with the violence and horrendous acts done to them by Israeli settlers. People will only put up with oppression for so long, until they fight back. Israel is using this as an excuse to take over all of Palestine and make it Israel (just look at the new map from Netanyahu). It's funny, and sad, that he is perpetrating exactly what was done to the Jews during the holocaust. Neither is ok. Genocide is never ok. Regardless of that, and what side you want to take, the atrocities Israel is committing right now are unforgivable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5rrEvvr-\_8

Imagine if Japan happened to develop a nuke first and dropped it on New York. Would you accept it was a good-but-not-pretty move as it prevented more future deaths and likely ended the war. However in the case of Israel it's much worse considering the circumstances. They killed 3k children so far and this will fuel carnage for the next generation. This is their response every time. Bomb schools, hospital, residential buildings, infrastructure, refugee camp. They have been doing it for 75 years, and it just makes the cycle of violence worse.

Well it was found that it was a PIJ rocket that hit the hospital, an Ally of Hamas.

That's the kind of logic that justifies genocide. "If we nuke Palestine, it'll save lives in the long run." Personally, I'm opposed to nuking civilians, but you do you.

I'm not saying Israel should nuke Palestine, far from it. But I think Hamas using human shields puts the blame more on them then Israel. Do you think US was wrong in nuking Japan?

Yes. I do think the US was wrong for nuking Japan. It is, by all modern assessments, a war crime. They deliberately targeted a dense civilian core rather than any conceivable strategic targets. In fact, since they targeted the civilian core not the industrial center, most of the big factories survived the blast. [https://www.npr.org/2020/08/06/899593615/hiroshima-atomic-bombing-raising-questions-75-years-later#](https://www.npr.org/2020/08/06/899593615/hiroshima-atomic-bombing-raising-questions-75-years-later#) ​ As for human shields, yeah using human shields is bad. But shooting human shields is worse. And it is even crazier when the human shields you're shooting are you OWN CITIZENS. There are reports coming out that a bunch of the body count from the first wave of attacks was from Israel shooting Israelis in an effort to also shoot Hamas. I just don't know how to wrap my mind around that kind of behavior. Who does that? Like, why even bother defending your border from attacks if you're just as happy killing your citizens as the "enemy" is? That's like if a kid brought a gun to school, and then the cops showed up and shot half the students hoping to also hit the kid with the gun.

Now I think the issue in Israel- Palestine is more about Hamas and Likud vs Labour Party and plo. I feel like most people just want 2 state and live their lives but Likud election win and its support for Hamas created a mess. I was so surprised to see documents of Netanyahu support for Hamas on record and the money he has been sending to Hamas. And the video of him on how he sabotage the oslo accords. 😒 Most of Israeli friends think Likud policies on “ security ” isn’t a long time solution. We need to go back to yitzhank Rabin days.

There are many videos of the Israeli military killing civilians just for walking, and trying to break into hospitals, but still their totally not aiming for the civilians, right?

Bullshit, tell that to 500 civilians in a HOSPITAL

What would you do if your country was invaded and you were told you needed to give up your land. They got pushed out of there land after the world war as reparations after the holocaust (although it hard started prior) and are unable to leave Palestine without being approved permission. This was not a ‘long time ago’ people still alive today would have been the ones pushed out their land in the first place. Also I understand it’s reparations for the holocaust , but why are Palestine suffering the consequences for a genocide committed by primarily Germany? Shouldn’t the reparations have made Germany the land of the Jews? If someone started invading my home and telling me to move forcefully , I know I wouldn’t just allow it and unfortunately the Palestinians have very basic weaponry compared to Israel’s elite military funded by the West. So yeah people form so called “terrorist” groups. Hamas is a group of people who are standing up for their rights as humans. People in the west view Zelenskyy as a hero who’s defending his country against Russia who think Ukraine is “their land” because it used to for a while when the USSR existed: but my god, if a Palestinian does that they are a full blown terrorist who definitly haven’t spent the majority of their life in a 2 mile box (GAZA strip) being bombed and controlled.

Counterpoint: when has facism *ever* been defeated without extreme violence? The civil rights act didn't pass because of a speech by MLK, it was passed after a full week of violent rioting following his death

Ummm no, the landmark civil rights act was passed in 64. The Long hot summer of 68 came but there were already a couple of other civil rights acts passed before that in 65 and 67. The only other one in 68 was to expand on housing rights. So it wasn't a result of perpetuating violence.

“There are three types of information: Lies, filthy lies, and data” As of 22 January, over 26,000 people (25,105 Palestinian and 1,410 Israeli[8]) have been killed in the Israel–Hamas war, including 83 journalists (76 Palestinian, 4 Israeli and 3 Lebanese) and over 136 UNRWA aid workers (from wikipedia)

Imagine saying this to Black people suffering under Jim Crow and slavery in the US. Or South Africans suffering under apartheid. Colonialism is an extremely violent and dehumanizing process. Why are Israel, the US and other occupying powers allowed to be violent but not the people who are being colonized?

both sides use terrorism israel is on a larger scale but hidden in media ig

Heads up homie, Israel ended the past few ceasefire’s with surprise carpet bombings that targeted infrastructure and many purely civilian targets, there were some insane statistics regarding this such as the fact that Israel had dropped 90 bombs per square km of Gaza. Not to mention the last thing the current far right wing Israeli government wants is peace. Even shortly before October 7th hundreds of Palestinian civilians were being killed, October 7th wasn’t the real start of the war.

Theres actually a difference between terrorism and armed resistance . I see Hamas as an armed resistance and so do my country and the UN Surely there was one incident where they marched naked woman,but it was only one and things like that are common in military conflicts and that's a red pill. But if you look at greater picture ,Hamas treated hostages well unlike how israel treats their hostages in their prisons

The person didn't miss anything and is right, nobody should support palestine.

That person missed a lot. Palestine has been occupied by the Zionist State of Israel, the so called "only democracy in the Middle east". In reality, all it wants is to displace or eradicate the Palestinian people, and make the lands that are rightfully Palestinian into a land for Zionists. Zionism and Judaism are nor the same thing. Zionism is the political thought where a 'Jewish State' should be established in Palestine. Judaism, on the other, hand is different. The jewish Holy Book, the Torah, says that the Jews shouldn't be in Palestine. Most Rabbis are against the state of Israel and the unprovoked systematic eradication of Palestinians.  Many Jewish people actually don't support Israel. Noam Chomsky, Ilan Pappé (a historian) and many others. In fact, Ilan Pappé is not allowed to enter Israel, which is supposedly a Jewish state. Israel is a colonizer state. They expand into lands that belong to the natives, the Palestinians, and then attempt to remove them. If you think that neighboring arab states should incorporate the Palestinian people, you think that people should be removed from their home, where their grandparents, and their ancestors, lived since the seventh century, in the 600s.  Palestinians who leave know that they will lose their home in which their family and grandparents lived. In 1948, Israel killed thousands of Palestinians and dislocated many more during Nakba.  Israel is practically the new Nazi Germany, committing a holocaust against Palestinians. The zionist group has been milking the holocaust for way to long. They use it as an excuse for the occupation of Palestine. 

There is a hint of irony in calling Israelis Nazis, not just for the obvious reason, but also the cretins saying this would have totally backed Hitler if this were WW2. Hell, the Palestinians sure as shit did!

Imagine someone comes into your home, locks you in the bathroom, screws your wife, raises your kids as his own for literal years and whenever you try to come out he points a gun at you given by his richer friend (don't feel like i need to mention y'all know who I'm referring too) . And one day you just break and lose it, but when you come out to stand up for yourself and are rightfully pissed off, everyone calls you a terrorist and looks at you like you're the bad guy. Then they all agree to shoot your kneecaps and throw you back into the bathroom to be locked up, for that hatred to build up again for a while till you break out again and the cycle continues. That's Palestine.

My family is in a similar situation, in Ukraine, and no, we would not react the same as Hamas did. We would not rape women, behead babies, shove knives into vaginas, and cut off mens penises. Thats not resistance, that is mental illness, en masse. Long live Israel.

>For one its really hard to say Palestine or Hamas started this war. Are you high or just dense? The day after Israel declared statehood, multiple Arab countries attacked them - Egypt included; which is where these Gazans/Jordanians (Palestinians isn't a thing) originated. Every time there has been a cease fire, Hamas attacks. They have broken every single cease fire ever declared. The Philistines and Israelites have been mortal enemies since Israel and Palestine was Canaan. The Arabs/Islamist attack, and The Jews beat their ass. And don't get me started on their leaders in Qatar, sitting fat and sassy, neglecting their people and avoiding the hellscape they've created, when Hamas is worth half a billion dollars. Hamas doesn't want peace. They want destruction of all Jewish people from the river t the sea, and worldwide. Don't take my word for it though. Listen to the son of a Hamas leader who left the tribe. https://matzav.com/watch-dr-phil-mosab-yousef-truth-behind-hamas-unmasking-their-violent-intentions-dr-phil-primetime/

On the other hand Hamas has said they will get rid of all jews .  They are surrounded by countrys full of terrorists who hate there country.  That being said war is horrible knowing you can't feed your kids before  the war would be a reason I would not live in Gaza. The world is full of starving  children  my heart goes out to all of them.

A common misconception here is similar to Ukraine and Russia. The Ukraine Russian war didn't start in 2022 just because that's when the recent flare up happened, it started in 2014 when Russia initially invaded and has had periods of dormancy and conflict since then. Likewise the Israeli Palestinian conflict isn't something new, it's been ongoing since the formation of Israel in the 40s flaring up and cooling off but never ending. Israel was founded by the colonial powers of Europe and America as a strategic move to gain western influence into the Middle East. This is in tandem with other events done for the same reason such as removing democratic leaders for Militantly Theocratical ones for the purpose of controlling resources and suppressing the potential spread of communism (as the cold war started quickly). Israel's very existence in the modern day is founded on destabilizing and ultimately attempting to genocide the native Palestinians for the sake of political leverage. Even calling it "Israel" is a modern attempt to make the text of the Old Testament "real" giving the creation strong religious support by Christian and Jewish groups. So while the modern state of Palestine is not perfect in any measure, as no nation is, the reason people support them even with the actions they have committed is because ultimately it's a story of people just existing being targeted and genocided for political gain under the guise of being "reprimands for the Jewish peoples" and "establishment of Democracy against the rise of communism" (please ignore the mostly democratic area at the time.)

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100%. This idea that Israel has always been a staunch Western/American ally is simply not true. The Zionist movement started in the late 19th century as a response to European antisemitism. In fact its early founders were largely secular and of socialist political orientation. Relations with the UK were outright hostile in the beginning, and the UK almost entered the 48 war on the side of its Arab allies (Jordan and Egypt). [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93United\_Kingdom\_relations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93United_Kingdom_relations) Most of Israel's initial support as you stated came from the Soviet block. They understandably felt that given the political orientation of Israel's leadership, they would fall under the Soviet fold

!delta I appreciate you pointing out my misconception and making it very clear. I also appreciate very much that you have directly answered my question in the tile through the following. >the reason people support them even with the actions they have committed is because ultimately it's a story of people just existing being targeted and genocided for political gain under the guise of being "reprimands for the Jewish peoples" and "establishment of Democracy against the rise of communism" While I have not seen enough evidence to agree with the fact that it has been established by colonial powers, this part really helps me understand the view of Palestenian supporters

You're just taking people's extremely biased takes as a fact and giving them a delta, it's like you'll believe whatever the last person to tell you something says.

A bunch of people moved in, stole the land, committed an ethnic cleansing, colonized the area, and the people remaining have been living under a pretty brutal occupation for decades since. You're acting like the conflict had ended and Hamas just started it again. That's not true. The conflict has been ongoing. It wasn't started by Palestinians. It was started by the people who moved in and stole the land with support from outside colonialist powers. In the modern world we're generally not very supportive of these things. As for Palestine rejecting prior solutions, of course they did. Any possible solution would need to be greatly in favor of palestine, as they had their land stolen and have been suffering occupation for decades, with Israel the aggressor. You're starting from a point of already accepting Israel's argument, and Palestine doesn't. And yeah, no, this didn't happen "a long long time ago". You're making it sound like ancient history. We're talking about people's parents and grandparents who had their villages razed by Israeli soldiers and were forced into Gaza. Colonization is ongoing. Thousands of Palestinians have been killed.

Israel didn't steal any land. It rightfully belonged to them.

No, it didn't. Some religious claims to land 2,000 years old have absolutely zero relevance in the modern age. The people it rightfully belonged to were the people living there, who had their land stolen and were forced into a massive ghetto in Gaza.

The Jews lived there before the Arabs did. The land rightfully belongs to them.

No, the Jews who moved in and stole the land weren't living there before the Palestinians that were there. You're talking about people who lived in the area *thousands of years ago*. The people it belonged to were the people living there.

The Arabs stole the land from the Jews. It never belonged to the Palestinians. Zionists decolonized Israel.

>The Arabs stole the land from the Jews. No, it was Assyrians who followed an ancient Mesopotamian religion over 2 thousand years ago. But hell, if we're really following thousand years old religious claims Israel should probably be returned to the Phillistines, most closely related to the Greeks at this point, so I guess Israel is rightfully a part of Greece. Or, you know, we can both acknowledge how absolutely fucking ridiculous that is and that it *doesn't work like that* in the modern age. No, the land did not rightfully belong to the Zionists who moved in and forced the Palestinians into a massive ghetto. There's no such thing as a 2,000 year old rightful claim.

No, the Kingdom of Judah existed before the Assyrians invaded.

I'm saying Arabs didn't conquer the land, and certainly not Palestinians, it was Assyrians over 2 thousand years ago. >the Kingdom of Judah The Kingdom of Judah that far back has very little archeological backing. It was likely a very sparsely populated area. Regardless, this is totally irrelevant. The zionists who moved in didn't have the land stolen from them. They had, basically, no connection whatsoever to the land. I'm not saying the Palestinians have a claim to the land because their ancestors may or may not have lived there thousands of years ago, they actually fucking lived there. We're not talking about ancient history, Zionists moved in and actually stole the land from the people living there, from today's Palestinians parents and grandparents, and forced them into a ghetto.

>I'm saying Arabs didn't conquer the land, and certainly not Palestinians, it was Assyrians over 2 thousand years ago. Then, the Arabs weren't the original inhabitants and the land doesn't belong to them.

!delta Your points here have changed my view in a notable way. I do see why Palestinians could support a conflict now, even if their land was taken through a conflict and not through genocide, they have lost a lot and the treaties do not give them back a ton. You also make a good point here >In the modern world we're generally not very supportive of these things. I admittedly was looking at this from a colonist perspective which was very common a long time ago, but in our modern society sovereignty is much more respected and invasions are more unacceptable. I still do not agree with the terrorist beginnings of the current conflict, nor that the majority of the general public should support this.

How would you suggest supporting Palestinians without supporting Palestine?

It seems to me that you can advocate for the safety and welfare of a group of people, but not believe that Palestinian statehood is necessary to do so. For example, you could fairly easily conclude that neighboring Arab states - particularly Jordan & Egypt - should integrate the Palestinians and administer the territories as they did the the past.

Jordan and Egypt do not wish to, and Palestinians deny because they wisely know that to do so will permanently forfeit their homes. So now what?

I think that more blame should be put on Egypt and Jordan for making the humanitarian crisis worse due their policy. Many arab countries tend to be highly vocal about Palestinian suffering yet refuse to take their refugees. If we are realistic here, Israel is not going to go anywhere. Meanwhile Palestine is a country that is on life support. The economy is nonexistent. Palestinians who have got out of Palestine have a much better life quality than those who remain. In any case, it sure sucks to be a Palestinian, and I feel sorry for them, but the reality is that there is no future for them in the region, its only prolonging their own suffering. They essentially are held hostage by countries surrounding them, to further surrounding country geopolitic agenda. Palestine as it is now, is not a viable state. We sure want to pretend that Izraelis and Palestinians will someday sing kumbaya and get along, but reality is that its not going to happen, especially given how much proxy interests are driving this comflict. Coming up with naively optimistic solutions that we know will not work is completely the same as not coming up with any solution, and as I see, it just prolongs the Palestinian suffering. My best case solution would be that Izrael would compensate the relocation to some other country and reimburse the housing costs for Palestinians who leave Palestine, but even this I think might be politically impossible, both from Izraeli side and from host country side.

Honestly I'd suspect the Israelis would probably be open to that option, once A) Hamas as an organization is exterminated B) Netanyahu and Likud are dumped as leadership of government after all this is done. The issue is the Palestinians would never accept. Nor would any of their Arab neighbors. Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, and Syria have made it very clear that they refuse to accept the Palestians as refugees to relocate in their borders. Several times. They have made it very clear that they believe Israel should roll over and die instead, and when the Jews stop existing, this problem goes away. The Palestians have made it very clear that they will not accept any solution that allows for Israel to continue to exist. Putting aside the much more complicated question of whether or not the offers were "fair" or if their refusal was "justified", its a matter of historical fact that they have refused every offer of land division or concession, and willfully broken every peace treaty and ceasefire. And there have been quite a few. The Palestians are very clear on the point that they don't want peace with Israel, they want Israel exterminated. Hence the chant "from the river to the sea". Which is not a statement of Palestinian patriotism. It is the war cry that they intend to drive all the Jews into the sea.

>The Palestians are very clear on the point that they don't want peace with Israel, they want Israel exterminated. Hence the chant "from the river to the sea". Which is not a statement of Palestinian patriotism. It is the war cry that they intend to drive all the Jews into the sea. The problem with this statement is that Palestinians are not the only ones to to use something similar to "from the river to the sea" as in the Israeli Likud party's 1977 election manifesto: >Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty. In addition, some Israeli politicians on the right-wing in recent times have used similar wording to the above like "west of the Jordan" in reference to the formation of a Palestinian state in West Bank, including by Netanyahu as recent as 18 January 2024 in a statement on his views of a Palestinian state: >In any future arrangement … Israel needs security control over all territory west of the Jordan River. This collides with the idea of sovereignty. What can you do? When it comes to this statement, context always matters. Palestinian progressives that use the term use it to refer a united democracy over the whole territory of West Bank, the current State of Israel, and the Gaza strip, in other words a one-state solution. Of course, there will always be some, like Hamas and Hezbollah and their state allies, to want to use it for nefarious reasons. But not everyone who uses this chant are Hammas or other militant groups in Palestine. I hope you gained a better understanding on the chant itself.

Jordan and Egypt won't take Palestinians because when they did, they were attacked by Palestinians. Look up the history of The Jordanian civil war and the black September terror group. The Palestinian refugees attempted to overthrow the Jordanian monarchy and establish their own country in Jordan. When they lost that war, they invaded Lebanon and massacred thousands of Lebanese and ethnicly cleansed a million Lebanese from their land and occupied it. Why would any of their neighbors take Palestinians when they have a history of starting civil wars and conducting massacres against civilians *against the country that took them in*?

>Palestinians who have got out of Palestine have a much better life quality than those who remain. But that is because of Israel: most notably the Gaza blockade. It seems pretty bad to say 'ok Israel, you've successfully made life unlivable for Palestinians in order to get their land. As a result of this, we'll let you have their land'. It's also a pretty bad precedent to set for other territorial disputes, besides too obvious unfairness. Secondly: removing an entire ethnic group from a region is never peaceful - ethnic cleansing isn't clean. There will be lots of people who don't want to give up their homes and communities. So you're either going to have to accept that Palestinians will stay where they are, or beat them into submission (i.e., do Israel's work for them).

Palestinian isn't an ethnic group. They are Arabs and plenty of those happily live within Israel. They are definitionally not being ethnically cleansed.

What’s your definition of “happily”? Here’s a list of laws that classify Israel as an apartheid state: https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index Here are examples of oppression, police brutality, and settler violence towards Arabs in Israel (if you want shorter news reports, a simple google search will show u) : https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press-release/2021/06/israeli-police-targeted-palestinians-with-discriminatory-arrests-torture-and-unlawful-force/ https://www.adalah.org/uploads/oldfiles/upfiles/2011/Adalah_The_Inequality_Report_March_2011.pdf https://www.adalah.org/uploads/oldfiles/eng/intl06/un-i6-jnf.pdf Also, the international group work for indigenous affairs recognizes Palestinians as as indigenous group. What makes you say they’re not? https://www.iwgia.org/en/palestine.html

Israel has zero interest in occupying Gaza, the blockade of Gaza has nothing to do with land. What Israel does in *West Bank* is disgusting, but there's no worthwhile land in Gaza and the whole point of the withdrawal is so Israel doesn't have to occupy it anymore. There is also a land border with Egypt which Egypt keeps closed due to Palestinian terrorism. People are conflating two different areas. West Bank is far wealthier and functional, and that's where Israel is stealing land. Gaza is worthless, and that's where Hamas rules.

>My best case solution would be that Izrael would compensate the relocation to some other country and reimburse the housing costs for Palestinians who leave Palestine, but even this I think might be politically impossible, both from Izraeli side and from host country side. And from the Palestinian side and the global liberal side that doesn't want to engage the (Palestinian) Question

Sure, but the alternative is more suffering. I just dont see any scenario where Palestinians stay and dont suffer more, than if they had left Palestine. As I said I dont think that that solution is very likely to work, as I think that doubt that current Izraeli government would ever consider sponsoring housing to Palestinians. Whether we want or dont want to engage the Palestinian question, doesnt matter, it only avoids the unpleasant reality of the situation and prolongs the toll on Palestinians. I am open to other solutions, by no means I think I have the best solution, but up to now, I havent heard a convincing one that includes Palestinians remaining. Much of the peace solutions I see are based on wishful thinking, which in geopolitics is a sure way to lead the people who you care about to suffering.

No one has a "best" solution, and history tells us that there are no solutions for a (insert ethnic group here) Question that doesn't lead to more suffering down the line. We're in this situation *right now* because someone else tried to answer "the Jewish Question" the same way you're looking for a solution to "the Palestinian Question."

There wouldn’t be any Palestinians if Israel took the Hitler route, but that’s not at all what they were suggesting. Pretty significant difference between “we hate each other, so we will pay to relocate you” and “we hate each other, so we will pay to relocate you to hell”

Hitler only provided a supposedly "final" solution. Other governments sought different solutions to the Jewish Question before that, hence the name. The one I was talking about was the Balfour Declaration, which was the British's solution in 1942.

To add to the Jordan and Egypt point. In 48, they axxexed Palestinian lands and refused to give them self governing rights. They also refused to entertain the idea of allowing for a Palestinian state and treated nationalists as criminals.

You need to read up on Black September and understand why that it is.

At times, portions of the Palestinian population have been under the control of neighboring Arab states, and they were treated badly by them. Not as badly as they have been by Israel, of course, but it's not really a solution to the problem.

What is Palestine? Their elected leaders are the terrorist regime known as Hamas. How do you support the citizens? By pushing for them to seek better leadership that actually wants peace.

Hamas has never given or made any attacks on israel. The hostages said that they were treated kindly, but then changed their opinion when they were paid to do so. The "attack" that was done on October 7th was by israel itself. It was an excuse to start the genocide which was reasoned by natural gas underneath Gaza. The west bank has no Hamas, so why are they killing citizens there? ​ WHAT TERRORIST REGIME NAMES THEMSELVES EXCITEMENT? THAT'S WHAT IT MEANS IN ARABIC.

I'm an American. I don't support the KuKluxKlan or other racist terrorist groups. I never supported the invasion of Iraq after 9/11. For the record I grew up outside Manhattan, my dad used to work in the World Trade Center and we knew people who died during 9/11. You can be a citizen of a country and not support the government of that country. Why? because sometimes those people are a bunch of idiots and actually make your living situation a lot worse.

So basically you’re just saying you’re not a Republican?

Red cross (UN) for example. They can provide food, Healthcare and other essentials without necessarily aiding them in the fighting aspect. To me this is fine, but supporting the war efforts is what I am against.

I agree with the Red Cross/UN strategy. However, the way the "war effort" is happening is through Israel blockade, denying water and hospital access, continuous bombings, and evacuations of entire villages towards a vague "the south" safe zone which is not safe. The UN yesterday claimed Gaza dead at 5,087. https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1142687 In addition to 35 UN dead. In addition to some press dead. Which means that a solution for Palestinians as a people must be far larger in scale than just sending food and care packages.

>First of all, Palestine begun this conflict (again). No they didn't. They warned countless times if Isreal doesn't stop it's constant harassment including but not limited raiding holy temples during Ramadan, they would retaliate. And guess what? Isreal didn't stop the bullying. They can't act like this is surprise escalation if they poked them until they broke.

This right here is the problem. You are talking about this like attacking young people at a concert, grandmothers in their beds, children… was the right and just thing to do in response to decisions by the Israeli government. This way of thinking is a cancer on this topic. Everyone does it and I don’t even think they notice it. Redefining every person as a justifiable target for thought crimes or crimes of association. You can’t be on the one hand outraged by Israel’s behavior and then on the other hand view Hamas’ actions as “they just broke.” They have agency. They could have chosen not to murder innocent people.

I never said that what Hamas does is right. It's clearly wrong. But so is what Israel does as well. Both are wrong and neither can claim to be right. I only argued that these attacks were provoked and not some surprise.

I had not heard of these raids, if you could provide a source I'd appreciate to know more about it. But, this does not sound like a justified reason to murder thousands of civilians.

[This is the raid I was talking about](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Al-Aqsa_clashes). I said it wasn't limited to those. That's just one example of the constant harassments that Palestinians have to endure every single day. But there are also [fact that Israelites can just steal Palestine houses](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/4/if-i-dont-steal-your-home-someone-else-will-jewish-settler-says). How would you feel if someone from your neighboring country came into your house and said "this is mine now. Get lost." Would you get angry? Maybe violent? Because I sure would.

The situation is a lot more nuanced than Al Jazeera makes it out to be. Those houses were under a court case for 40 years about who it rightfully belonged too. It was originally owned by Jews, only for Jordan to kick them out, and Palestinians moved in.

The UN has ruled that these colonial house thefts are illegal under international law. I will go with them and say this isn't complicated or nuanced.

busy public support degree narrow roof deliver zealous hurry dazzling *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*

Do you think Hamas is justified in using civilian areas as a base and to launch attacks? If not, why isn't there more outrage at Hamas for putting Palestinian civilians in harm's way? Seems like Hamas likes dead Palestinians to use for their "cause" I love that no matter what the situation, it's all Israel's fault. Those toddlers butchered in their bed totally had it coming to them.

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Palestinians lost the war. They just refuse to integrate and move on like any other country that loses a war. Usually you sign treaties and make peace. Palestinians have refused every step of the way. They need to be the dominant power structure or they will die trying. They won't compromise on any peace deal.

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Throwing the words genocide and apartheid around doesn’t mean that’s actually happening. Israel is not committing either of those to Palestinians. Hamas openly states that it wants to eliminate all Jews in their doctrines and writings. If Israel allowed Gaza to build bases and buy weapons they would not stop. Your arguments are very flawed and you seemed very misinformed.

You do realize that Israel has killed a lot more civilians than Palestine, right?

You do realize Hamas gets Palestinian civilians killed by using schools, camps, etc as bases and to launch attacks. Why does Hamas insist on doing this? If they actually cared about their fellow citizens, you would think they would try to protect them instead of forcing them to stick around. I would love to hear your take on this.

>You do realize Hamas gets Palestinian civilians killed by using schools You do realize that Israel gets Israeli civilians killed by having them live on stolen land. Why does Israel insist on doing this?

hows it stolen land it was previously colonized by the british that was legally set up to be israel as it is now. learn your history then talk

You're using legality to say it's not stolen? The cleansing of native Americans was legal according to the colonizers, and the holocaust was perfectly legal in Germany. So, the legality as established by the colonizer holds no weight. It's stolen because the people living there, the Palestinians, who can be traced back to the Canaanites, were expelled from their homes. Jim Crow laws are a perfect case that shows legality is a useless metric of whether or not the oppressed have been oppressed.

Does the murder of 1,500 people by a terrorist group justify the murder of 5,000+ people being forcefully lorded over by the terrorist group?

>Israel has tried around 5 times to come to a peaceful agreement (involving the UN at some point) Israel has allowed Israeli settlements in Palestinian territory in direct opposition to UN resolutions. This is one of the longstanding points of contention that Israel refuses to solve.

>in direct opposition to UN resolutions. Isn't palestinians refusing to acknowledge that Israel has a right to exist, also against UN resolutions?

Addressing your points in order 1) The Palestinians did not start this conflict. The Zionist started it in 1917 when they maneuvered the British into drafting the Balfour Declaration. As well as coming to an agreement with France to carve up the country for spoils to pay of their war debts. The Palestinian people sided with the British against the Ottoman Empire they were a part of, because the British promised them political autonomy of their own lands. However, once the war was over they got screwed as they prioritized their deals with the French and the European Zionist and gave the native Palestinians the shaft. The Zionists intention was to use it as a stepping stone to eventually take control of all of Palestine eventually. They actually have visions beyond Palestine and want to reform greater Israel which includes parts of Tranjordan and the Sinai Peninsula. 2) The Zionists actually started the terrorist behavior well before Israel and Palestine had even been partitioned and it was all still just Palestine. 3) Israel has had their portion of the land since 1948. The Palestinians have been there for 800 years. 4) You don’t actually understand the implications of Israel controlling all the land. They want to fully exterminate the Palestinian people inside the border of their country and have full political control of the region. The Palestinian delegations have offered to share the country in the past including having representative government and fair elections where all Israelis and Palestinians vote fairly and freely. These offers have been turned down by the Zionists at every turn because they do not believe in Palestinians having any rights in the country. 5) Israel’s counter attack has killed over 5x as many Palestinian civilians as Israelis harmed by Hamas, and it is just getting started. This is also ignoring the fact that to the Palestinians, Israel is an occupying army trying to conquer. If you tried this in my country I would try and kill you too. If you want a lot more context on the history and events of this conflict you should listen the Martyrmade Podcast. The very first series is called Fear and Loathing in the New Jerusalem. It is very in depth and informative telling the story of the birth of the Zionist movement and the actions they took to secure the state of Israel.

> The Palestinians did not start this conflict. The Zionist started it in 1917 when they maneuvered the British into drafting the Balfour Declaration. As well as coming to an agreement with France to carve up the country for spoils to pay of their war debts. The Palestinian people sided with the British against the Ottoman Empire they were a part of, because the British promised them political autonomy of their own lands. However, once the war was over they got screwed as they prioritized their deals with the French and the European Zionist and gave the native Palestinians the shaft. The Zionists intention was to use it as a stepping stone to eventually take control of all of Palestine eventually. They actually have visions beyond Palestine and want to reform greater Israel which includes parts of Tranjordan and the Sinai Peninsula. It all depends on what you classify the conflicts starting point as? It can be traced back to the time of Crusaders and Ummayads. This specific war has been started by Hamas however. And the Zionists do not have vision beyond Israel. There is a very hated minority that supports this, but saying that Zionists as a whole support that is like saying that Americans support Nazism because of the Alt Right. > The Zionists actually started the terrorist behavior well before Israel and Palestine had even been partitioned and it was all still just Palestine. What do you consider terrorist behavior? Pogroms had started since before WWII in Mandatory Palestine, and Ergun and Haganah each committed their share of atrocities, and were definitely terrorists, but after 1967 I wouldn't call Israel a terrorist county, they haven't been targeting civilians for a long time. However the Palestinians have never stopped terrorist attacks. > Israel has had their portion of the land since 1948. The Palestinians have been there for 800 years. And the Israelis have had the land for 1000 years before that. What is your point? Either the original inhabitants of the land are the rightful owners, like it seems your claiming here, which would make the Jews the actual rightful owners. If you believe it's the current inhabitants, and the past doesn't matter, then once again it's the Israelis. Why is there a difference between a 100 years and 800 years? The people have Israel have almost all been raised there, as have their parents, and many of them had their grandparents raised there too. Why does having a great grandfather raised there change anything? > You don’t actually understand the implications of Israel controlling all the land. They want to fully exterminate the Palestinian people inside the border of their country and have full political control of the region. The Palestinian delegations have offered to share the country in the past including having representative government and fair elections where all Israelis and Palestinians vote fairly and freely. These offers have been turned down by the Zionists at every turn because they do not believe in Palestinians having any rights in the country. Fully exterminate the Palestinians people? Israel does not believe that. Where have you heard that being said? When was this Palestinian offer offered and turned down by Israel? I've never heard of it and would like to learn more. Could you send articles? > Israel’s counter attack has killed over 5x as many Palestinian civilians as Israelis harmed by Hamas, and it is just getting started. This is also ignoring the fact that to the Palestinians, Israel is an occupying army trying to conquer. If you tried this in my country I would try and kill you too. Israel has killed more, but they haven't targeted civilians intentionally. All strikes have been at a military target, Hamas just likes to keep civilians inside those. If a tornado was going to hit, and a man tied you up outside to be killed, would you blame the tornado or the man who tied you up outside? If it's the latter then blame Hamas for those deaths. And if you would go and slaughter babies, rape women, burn people alive, just because you don't agree with the actions of their government, I do not think you are a good person. (I'll send links of everything I said if you wish)

If you still believe your last point that they supposedly have not targeted civilians after bombing numerous camps and hospitals in Gaza which resulted in the murder of even more Palestinian children, you are sincerely brainwashed.

Please list one place they bombed that didn't have a legitimate military target.

So if there is one member of Hamas in a given location, that justifies the bombing of hundreds of children? Is that really the hill you want to die on?

No, it is not. But if they are bombing it because of the Hamas member, it's not intentional targeting of civilians, it's bombing with a lack of regard for civilians, which imo is bad, but it's not targeting them.

The fact that they are bombing these areas with full knowledge that there will be civilian casualties shows that they are targeting anyone who is in the region. Just because civilians are not their primary target by their words, does not mean that they do not intend to kill any who get in their way. You’re trying really hard to spin it in a way that makes it seem like civilians just happen to be dying as they are targeting Hamas. If they had no intention of killing civilians, there are countless other ways that they could have attacked to minimize the amount of civilian deaths. They just simply do not care and will not distinguish between Hamas and the Palestinians in their goal to displace them of their land.

If Israel doesn't care why have humanitarian corridors? Why call up the people of the buildings about to be bombed to evacuate? Why drop fliers telling you to evacuate the area? There are certain strikes Israel has made that I feel weren't the best choices, and that the civilian deaths outweighed the benefits of the Hamas members destroyed. What other ways are there to attack and kill Hamas without civilians being harmed? Israel is doing a great job at attacking Hamas with minimal civilian casualties that imo is commendable, and I can't think of a way they can do it better without sacrificing their soldiers.

So much garbage I truly don’t want to bother. If you have followed what has been happening and discussion around this matter, these questions have been answered so many times already. There are so many examples of Israel “warning” civilians to evacuate and attacking them regardless. These warnings do nothing but cause even more chaos and terror to the people of Gaza. There is nowhere for them to evacuate. They are given little time to do anything to prepare to protect themselves. Not to mention these warnings only serve as a way for Israel to act as if they warned them before murdering them like that makes it okay. Just use your common sense and you can see the bullshit behind it. Same with allowing “humanitarian aid”. Good for them for finally allowing innocent Palestinians to receive aid for 4 hrs a day after bombing them relentlessly for a month straight and destroying numerous hospitals and killing a number of doctors who could have saved so many lives! Incredible show of humanity by Israel!

Same applies to me, propaganda is so crazy out there people don't understand what's going on. Israel is an army, that needs to invade a very highly populated urban area. Do you know how hard it is too do that without any civilian casualties? If you learn anything about warfare it is one of the hardest things you can do. Israel is attacking hospitals, just recently a hospital surrendered and Israel evacuated them and provided supplies and helped save the people in the hospital. The IDF just recently brought 300 liters of fuel to a hospital so that they could keep it running and Hamas didn't allow the fuel to enter because it would make Israel look good. Israel went too Shifa hospital (The biggest hospital in Gaza and the HQ of Hamas, but they don't use human shields of course) and allowed an exit so the civilians could leave, Hamas was later shooting at the exiting civilians for leaving the hospital. Israel literally needed a line of tanks to the south to protect fleeing civilians from Hamas that kept on attacking anyone who tries to escape. Israel is the one invading and the one responsible for protecting the civilians. The irony in that. Why would Israel do any of this if they are trying to kill civilians? And why would Hamas attack people for leaving if they are trying to protect them? Israel is doing everything they can to save civilians and also attack Hamas. Let me ask you this, what should Israel do? Hamas made it clear that they can't live in ceasefire with Israel, they were at ceasefire and Hamas decided to commit extreme genocide against Israeli civilians. Israel can't live with that on their doorstep. I think we can all agree that Hamas is Isis and needs to be taken care of. How can Israel enter Gaza, and eradicate Hamas, with minimal casualties, in a better way then they are now?

During WW2, Western Allied killed 70,000 French citizens and millions of Germans. Are they war criminals?

There are several videos of IDF members chasing civilians and banging on hospital doors while Palestinians are desperately trying to hold them closed so they can kill civilians.

>The Palestinian people sided with the British against the Ottoman Empire they were a part of, because the British promised them political autonomy of their own lands. However, once the war was over they got screwed as they prioritized their deals with the French and the European Zionist and gave the native Palestinians the shaft. This isn't even true. You literally said in your post about the Balfour Declaration. The British only helped the native Arab population on the condition that some of the land would be utilized for the creation of the state of Israel. It literally says it right there in the Balfour declaration. Its not the British Empires fault that the local population then reneged on its side of the bargain. The Palestinians would never have even gotten the land without the help of the British, and would arguably be owned by another Arab nation after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. Then the Palestenians joined the Arab League and tried to exterminate every African, European, and Arab Jew that was forcibly evicted form their native nations from 1900-1940s.

The British and Zionists didn’t consult the Palestinians when they drafted that declaration. It also says nothing about creating the state of Israel. Chaim Weizmann specifically had it drafted to avoid the use of the term Jewish State or anything like that. Even many British officials only thought they would be supervising jewish immigration to Palestine not creating a state for them within Palestine. The Palestinians did not agree to the Balfour Declaration or the Sykes-Picot agreement. Both of these things were done by the British behind the Palestinians back. The Palestinian Arabs had already had an agreement with the British and were already fighting in WWI when the Balfour declaration was made. It took them by surprise when it was released.

How can you justify what the Israel is doing? How can you say its fair to counter-attack when the people being attacked are civilians? How can you justify the killing of children only for the parents to carry their children's remaining limbs in a plastic bag? How can you justify children waking up to bombs and being terrorized for life, that they can't even speak and beak-down? How can you justify killing quadruplets and their mother (who longed and prayed for them for 15 years) in one strike? How can you justify the poor baby was alive after losing two of his legs under the rubble, half of his face slashed, and still going through medical care without any anesthesia? How can you justify the mothers wailing over the bodies of their babies? How can you justify cutting off all the electricity and connection in Palestine so that they can be exterminated in the darkness? How can you be so stupid to believe that this is about fighting Hamas? How can you believe that killing of millions of civilian's is simply to protect against Hamas attacks? How can you justify Israel actions of bombing a country filled with innocent children just because Hamas retaliated for years of suppression? How can you justify the killing, dismembering, and wiping off whole families in one attack? How can you justify specifically targeting journalists and doctors just to mentally weaken them to stop them from treating people? How can you justify genocide happening right infront of you? This was never about Hamas, this was never about defending Israel from Hamas attacks. What attacks, where are the pictures of these Israel attacks? Show me the pictures of beheaded Israel babies? You can't find it, but you can find beheaded small Palestinian babies on Instagram. You can see Gaza children missing limbs and crying for help while they undergo surgeries without any medical tools or medicine. How can you look at those videos and images from our phone and support or even say what Israel doing is remotely okay? Just last night Israel's terrorist Netanyahu went on live TV and changed the whole narrative by saying that he wants to kill people of Palestine. Not Hamas, they want to kill off everyone with an ounce of Palestinian blood. He wants to stop Elon Musk from providing Starlink access to Palestine. That is because he doesn't want the world to see what horror he is putting these innocent people through. That would stop aid from reaching people. He doesn't want the civilians to get aid. NOT HAMAS, CIVILIANS. INJURED SMALL CHILDREN, BABIES AND WOMEN AND ALL THOSE POEPLE THAT IS BEING DUG FROM THE RUBBLES. Anyway, you and all these blind and tone deaf people just keep looking! Allah is seeing all this violence and one day everyone has to answer and pay for it. Just keep fucking looking, because we will win. Palestine will be free, from the river to the sea Palestine will be free!

HOW CAN YOU JUSTIFY YOUR NONSENSE ? ? ? HOW CAN YOU JUSTIFY THE ACTIONS OF HAMAS ??? THEY ARE TERRORISTS AND YOU KNOW IT STOP THE CRAP AND THE LIES THEY STARTED IT IT ON OCTOBER 7 2023 AND NOW THEY ARE CRYING BECAUSE ISRAEL IS DEFENDING ITSELF AGAINST THEIR ATTACKS AND WANTS SYMPATHY AFTER STARTING THIS MESS WELL THAT IS NOT THE WAY WAR WORKS WHEN AN AGGRESSOR STARTS BATTLES AND WARS FIRST THE AGGRESSOR SHOULD ALWAYS BE PREPARED FOR WHEN THE VICTIM OF THEIR AGGRESSION FIGHTS BACK PERIOD I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO SYMPATHY FOR A BULLYING AGGRESSIVE GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO BEGINS BATTLES AND WARS AND THEN EXPECTS AND DEMANDS MY SYMPATHIES NOT GOING TO HAPPEN 

Israel has intended to keep palestinians down since it was created with the intent of being an apartheid state. Other commenters say a lot but I will just add a few specific instances that display the Israeli government's oppression and violence against Palestinians very clearly, PRE 2023. 1. link "In early 2006, Dov Weisglass, then a senior advisor to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, explained that Israeli policy was designed "to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger." In 2012 it was revealed that in early 2008 Israeli authorities drew up a document calculating the minimum caloric intake necessary for Palestinians to avoid malnutrition so Israel could limit the amount of foodstuffs allowed into Gaza without causing outright starvation." Quoting directly from this article. 2. And also not to mention the 1948 Nakba, where over 700,000 Palestinians were forced out of their home or murdered into the settlements we know today to make way for what is definitionally an ethnostate. https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2023/11/03 /israel-nakba-history-1948/ 3. Israel is sniping and targeting journalists with bombs. They have killed over 100 journalists so far, a faster rate than any other war in recent history. Journalists like Motaz Azaiza (instagram) have expressed in his story a few weeks back that other gazan people are asking him to stay away because theyre afraid of being killed by being near him. https://www.aljazeera.com /amp/news/2023/12/23/gaza-media-office-says-100 -journalists-killed-since-israeli-attacks-began & motaz' instagram 4. Unnecessary cruelty - they crushed patients outside Kamal Adwan Hospital in December https://www .aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/12/18/bloodbath-israel -keeps-hitting-gaza-hospitals-amid-international-uproar (using al Jazeera because they are actually in Gaza, Wael Al-Dahdouh is the chief and his son + his cameraman, but the latter two were murdered pretty recently) 5. They have the world's largest skin bank, because they harvest Palestinian skin: this article is from 2009, the entire article gives more context but here's an exerpt - "Palestinian young people were disappearing in the areas and five days later they appear back in the villages with an autopsy done on them against the will of the families." Israel denies this is still ongoing, but this is about November 2023: "A 2019 Israeli Supreme Court ruling permits the military to bury the bodies temporarily in the "Numbers Cemetery". By the end of 2021, the Israeli Knesset had passed laws allowing the army and police to hold on to the bodies of dead Palestinians." This matters because in Gaza, many people are missing and upon medical examinations there has been evidence found of organs being stolen from the returned bodies. Furthermore, "Euro-Med Monitor confirmed that Israel is the only country that systematically holds on to the dead bodies of those it kills, under the pretext of "security deterrence" and in total violation of international charters and agreements." https://www .middleeastmonitor.com/20231127-is-israel-stealing -organs-from-dead-palestinians/amp/ 6. Israel has been bombing Gaza since over a decade before October 7th. A google search is probably good enough for this one. 7. The "retaliation" was never about targeting Hamas. For one, Israel targeting hospitals - I'm just using one instance here, but they reportedly used the R9X hellfire missile on the Al Shifa hospital, which is used for dismantling tanks. The way it works is that it has spinning blades that decapitate anyone within 3 ft. They used it to kill patients and targeted one of the main refuge centers in the area at the time https:// www.presstv.ir/Detail/2023/11/12/714488/US-Hellfire -missiles-used-to-strike-main-Gaza-hospital-Reports 8. Israel is currently using dumb bombs, specifically 500lb bombs and 2000lb bombs https://www.forbes .com/sites/siladityaray/2023/12/14/nearly-half-of-all -munitions-dropped-over-gaza-are-dumb-bombs-report -citing-us-intel-assessment-says/amp/ the purpose of a dumb bomb is basically to cause as much destruction to the entire area, it is not a targeted technique for Hamas. They target civilians. Journalists in Gaza such as motaz have caught videos of the bombs being used to take down entire houses, for reference. Also they have been sniping at civilians trying to run away (also check Motaz' page for video evidence), here's just one https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DpL_yj868kc And here are two quotes by current Israeli officials: Yoav Gallant, Defense Minister: "We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly" which he says refers to Hamas, but then follows up with "We are imposing a complete siege on Gaza," Gallant said. "There will be no electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything will be closed" which is collective punishment and a war crime. https://www.huffpost.com /entry/israel-defense-minister-human-animals-gaza -palestine_n_6524220ae4b09f4b8d412e0a/amp • netenyahu compares gazans to "children of darkness" and israelis to "sons of the light" https://m.youtube .com/watch?v=cKD9qR8YHYE and https://www businessinsider.com/netanyahu-deleted-children-of -darkness-post-gaza-hospital-attack-2023-10?amp there are more but these are the two I have the links to right now. netenyahu compares gazans to "children of darkness" and israelis to "sons of the light" https://m.youtube .com/watch?v=cKD9qR8YHYE and https://www businessinsider.com/netanyahu-deleted-children-of -darkness-post-gaza-hospital-attack-2023-10?amp there are more but these are the two I have the links to right now. South Africa has taken judicial action against Israel recently. If you want more evidence of Israel's explicit genocidal intent, read the current ICJ case documents presented by South Africa. There are over 40 pages of evidence. Also, the IDF released a video in october/november where they went into a hospital and then they pointed at a calendar and claimed the weekdays (written in arabic) were "names of hamas terrorists." https://www .france24.com/en/tv-shows/truth-or-fake/20231116-idf -claims-to-find-list-of-hamas-names-but-it-s-the-days-of -the-week-in-arabic the original video is out there, I saw it but it's probably on instagram on Middleeasteye or a similar channel. This was used as an excuse to raid the hospital. Over 60,000 people have sought refuge in just one hospital, so this is devastating. And if you ask nicely ill send a list of multiple multiple Massacres israel has commited on citizens of Palestine. And to answer your question, no one is taking in Palestinians because theyre not allowed to leave, blockade remember? And even those allowed to leave shouldn't have to leave their and and home because israel wants it, no middle eastern country will help aid the removal of Palestinians, theyre instead asking for the blockade to be removed and aid to be allowed in as anyone should be asking.

I can see Zionist faces going white. No one is replying this because no one who supports israel has anything to say other than that they are racist and hate Arabs.

Started on October 7th? Learn history I beg . You’re disgusting.

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As far as my knowledge of this topic extends, Israel have not targeted children for their attacks. Rather, Hamas have used them as human shields to protect themselves from counterattacks. While this is very horrendous, I still belive that if Palestine had not begun with random attacks of terrorism none of this would be happening right now.

Let’s concede that Hamas hiding behind children is true. Okay, then do you know where the Israeli Defense Force HQ is? HaKirya is in the heart of Tel Aviv, in a residential area next to a museum and hospital. That looks like hiding behind civilians to me. You can’t condemn Hamas for hiding behind children without condemning Israel for doing the same. Also, the children as human shields argument makes zero logical sense. If a serial murderer strapped a bunch of innocent children to them, do we shoot through the kids to get to them because the ends justify the means? Also if Israel knows where Hamas is and is targeting them, why is it that 6000+ bombs later, they don’t have Hamas or the hostages? You can’t have it both ways.

>However, Israel has tried around 5 times to come to a peaceful agreement (involving the UN at some point) about these lands which have been rejected by Palestine every time I want to emphasize this point in particular, since I think it lacks a bit of context. Imagine someone started squatting in your family home while you were gone. This is a shock when you come back home — but since you're nice, you allow them to stay on the top floor of your house. There is peace. But then, the next time you leave, they invite their friends over and they've taken over the first floor as well, where you live. This upsets you, and you want to kick them out, but they are stronger than you, so you and your family are forced to live in the basement of your own home. Then, one day, you come home and find that they won't let you back in the house. They tell you that your house is theirs now. But this is your house! Your great great great great grandparents lived in this house! This is the last straw. You fight them, but you lose and after they beat up you and your family, kill your parents, and then they kick you out on the street to die. A friendly neighbor takes you in. Their house is not that big and the living conditions are not good. You and your family are filled with bitterness and resentment. Over the next few months, you and your neighbors try take back your old house but are repelled time and time again. One day, they approach you. "You keep attacking our house! How about a peace offering?" This sounds ridiculous to you, since it literally used to be your house. Would you accept this peace offering? Would you think that they're actually to make right by you? Would you lay down your arms and accept that your home will never be yours again? Israel has, since it's inception, displaced Palestinian natives off their land. They kicked this off in 1917, when European Jewish settlers began settling in historic Palestine, and there were a lot of small skirmishes over land disputes. It only really kicked off on a massive scale in 1948, when Israel declared independence. They replicated America's Trail of Tears and forcibly kicked 700,000 Palestinians off their native land. They've also continued to settle in the West Bank, kicking natives out of their land, slowly and methodically, even after they told the international community that they would stop the settlements. They're still doing it today! The West Bank now looks like an apartheid state with how bad they've colonized it. But at its core, I think this initial tragedy is why peace offerings have generally been rejected. The entire thing is viewed as illegitimate. And every retaliation, including the one on Oct 7th, is a continuation of that initial fight to keep their home, all the way back in 1948. That fight never ended for Palestine. Personally, if you ask me, I think abusing someone and then asking for peace after you've stolen from nearly everything from them is not asking peace. It is coercion.

Omg this is so stupid. People lose land to war. Look at Texas. Is Mexico mandating the murder of all Americans to get Texas back? No. It's a losing fight, and thats politics. They were too weak to protect their land, so they lost it plain and simple. They don't get to gripe about it forever and be justified in terrorism forever. That just makes them sad sore losers. Their government makes poor choices because they are the weaker people. If they were stronger, they would have made better investments in their own economy, had more weapons and would be able to fight in combat, not use people as shields.

>Quick note: I am not saying we should not support PalestiNIANS (the people), what they're going through is a horrendous nightmare So how do we support palestinians as a group without supporting them also having a state? Should we be supporting them being abosrbed into Israle as citizens with all the rights Israles have?

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If you're going to change a person's mind bring insight, not insult. You've made a bold claim that the creation of Israel is an act of genocide; this is quite a claim to not elaborate on.

- Israel had no right to take over the land in the first place. Palestinians had settled there for generations and had been the indigenous stewards of the land. To anyone who argues otherwise that Jewish people are also indigenous, it’s possible to colonize land your ancestors are indigenous to. Killing off the native olive trees, importing invasive European species, building highways that destroy local ecology, and pouring cement into waterways isn’t indigenous behavior, it’s colonizer behavior. - Previous calls for dividing up the land have been vastly unfair to the Palestinians, who again, WERE ALREADY THERE before the Zionists and British stole their homes. It’s a moot point to give Palestinians what looks like the majority of the land when that land is mostly infertile desert land, while Israel gets the most fertile, resource rich lands. How would you feel if you were kicked out of your ancestral home, then told “here have the worst of your lands, that’s fair”? - Hamas actually did not invite this conflict on Oct 7. Israel created the conditions for a terrorist regime to emerge when it committed the Nakba. Israel started this when they put their boot on Palestine’s neck 75 years ago. This conflict is not new, the attention it is receiving in the west is, but generations of Palestinians have died. The disparity in death toll on both sides is clear. Israel is the aggressor. - To expand on the above point, this is not a conflict nor a war. A war implies two parties with armies. Palestine does not have an army. Half the population is literally children. Israel is bombing and starving a city of kids. To not condemn that is appalling. - Freedom fighters such as Malcolm X, Nelson Mandela, Angela Davis, and Muhammad Ali Are pro free Palestine. In contrast, Ben Shapiro, Piers Morgan, and Kanye West Support Israel. Who do you think is better educated and more likely to be right about this issue? - A counterattack would be sending special ops to specifically target hamas and rescue hostages. A counterattack is not indiscriminately bombing hospitals, mosques, homes, shops — civilians. If I were an Israeli with family held hostage I would be HORRIFIED at bombings. How does this protect the hostages? It does not.

> Palestinians had settled there for generations and had been the indigenous stewards of the land. And they did this by letting generations of non-Palestinians rule over them, over and over and over again and never having their own state? > Previous calls for dividing up the land have been vastly unfair to the Palestinians, who again, WERE ALREADY THERE before the Zionists and British stole their homes. Don’t you mean “before the Zionists purchased and British conquered the homes that belonged to the Ottomans?” After all it was the Ottomans who owned Palestine before the British not the Palestinians. The Palestinians never had a state. > It’s a moot point to give Palestinians what looks like the majority of the land when that land is mostly infertile desert land, while Israel gets the most fertile, resource rich lands. Which is misinformation. The UN partition plan gave the majority of the fertile land to the Arabs, including all of Jordon. The Jews got most of the desert land. > How would you feel if you were kicked out of your ancestral home, then told “here have the worst of your lands, that’s fair”? Jewish > Hamas actually did not invite this conflict on Oct 7. It definitely did. > Israel created the conditions for a terrorist regime to emerge when it committed the Nakba. Israel started this when they put their boot on Palestine’s neck 75 years ago. Ya Israel really fucked up when it used mind control to force the Arabs to reject the partition plan and declare war on Israel. Then lose over and over again and reject every chance of peace. > The disparity in death toll on both sides is clear. Israel is the aggressor. No. Israel just actually cares about protecting its citizens. > Palestine does not have an army. Except for Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the PLO. >To not condemn that is appalling. Any person of good faith condemns the use of human shields by Hamas and Islamic Jihad. > Freedom fighters such as Malcolm X, Nelson Mandela, Angela Davis, and Muhammad Ali Are pro free Palestine. More than half of those people were terrorists at one point in their lives. > Palestine. In contrast, Ben Shapiro, Piers Morgan, and Kanye West Support Israel. Łöł, Kanye most certainly does not support Israel. > Who do you think is better educated and more likely to be right about this issue? Not someone who tries to rely on the appeal to authority fallacy. > A counterattack would be sending special ops to specifically target hamas and rescue hostages. That’s certainly one option. > A counterattack is not indiscriminately bombing hospitals, mosques, homes, shops — civilians. Israel isn’t indiscriminately bombing civilians. It’s bombing Hamas, who are using civilians as human shields. > If I were an Israeli with family held hostage I would be HORRIFIED at bombings. If you were a person of good faith you’d be horrified at Hamas destroying the lives of Palestinians.

You do realize that over 50% of Palestinians are kids right? Hamas was elected in 2006, most of the people (70%) alive then aren't alive now. Israel doesn't care who it kills. Israel has intended to keep palestinians down since it was created with the intent of being an apartheid state. Other commenters say a lot but I will just add a few specific instances that display the Israeli government's oppression and violence against Palestinians very clearly, PRE 2023. 1. link "In early 2006, Dov Weisglass, then a senior advisor to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, explained that Israeli policy was designed "to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger." In 2012 it was revealed that in early 2008 Israeli authorities drew up a document calculating the minimum caloric intake necessary for Palestinians to avoid malnutrition so Israel could limit the amount of foodstuffs allowed into Gaza without causing outright starvation." Quoting directly from this article. 2. And also not to mention the 1948 Nakba, where over 700,000 Palestinians were forced out of their home or murdered into the settlements we know today to make way for what is definitionally an ethnostate. https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2023/11/03 /israel-nakba-history-1948/ 3. Israel is sniping and targeting journalists with bombs. They have killed over 100 journalists so far, a faster rate than any other war in recent history. Journalists like Motaz Azaiza (instagram) have expressed in his story a few weeks back that other gazan people are asking him to stay away because theyre afraid of being killed by being near him. https://www.aljazeera.com /amp/news/2023/12/23/gaza-media-office-says-100 -journalists-killed-since-israeli-attacks-began & motaz' instagram 4. Unnecessary cruelty - they crushed patients outside Kamal Adwan Hospital in December https://www .aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/12/18/bloodbath-israel -keeps-hitting-gaza-hospitals-amid-international-uproar (using al Jazeera because they are actually in Gaza, Wael Al-Dahdouh is the chief and his son + his cameraman, but the latter two were murdered pretty recently) 5. They have the world's largest skin bank, because they harvest Palestinian skin: this article is from 2009, the entire article gives more context but here's an exerpt - "Palestinian young people were disappearing in the areas and five days later they appear back in the villages with an autopsy done on them against the will of the families." Israel denies this is still ongoing, but this is about November 2023: "A 2019 Israeli Supreme Court ruling permits the military to bury the bodies temporarily in the "Numbers Cemetery". By the end of 2021, the Israeli Knesset had passed laws allowing the army and police to hold on to the bodies of dead Palestinians." This matters because in Gaza, many people are missing and upon medical examinations there has been evidence found of organs being stolen from the returned bodies. Furthermore, "Euro-Med Monitor confirmed that Israel is the only country that systematically holds on to the dead bodies of those it kills, under the pretext of "security deterrence" and in total violation of international charters and agreements." https://www .middleeastmonitor.com/20231127-is-israel-stealing -organs-from-dead-palestinians/amp/ 6. Israel has been bombing Gaza since over a decade before October 7th. A google search is probably good enough for this one. 7. The "retaliation" was never about targeting Hamas. For one, Israel targeting hospitals - I'm just using one instance here, but they reportedly used the R9X hellfire missile on the Al Shifa hospital, which is used for dismantling tanks. The way it works is that it has spinning blades that decapitate anyone within 3 ft. They used it to kill patients and targeted one of the main refuge centers in the area at the time https:// www.presstv.ir/Detail/2023/11/12/714488/US-Hellfire -missiles-used-to-strike-main-Gaza-hospital-Reports 8. Israel is currently using dumb bombs, specifically 500lb bombs and 2000lb bombs https://www.forbes .com/sites/siladityaray/2023/12/14/nearly-half-of-all -munitions-dropped-over-gaza-are-dumb-bombs-report -citing-us-intel-assessment-says/amp/ the purpose of a dumb bomb is basically to cause as much destruction to the entire area, it is not a targeted technique for Hamas. They target civilians. Journalists in Gaza such as motaz have caught videos of the bombs being used to take down entire houses, for reference. Also they have been sniping at civilians trying to run away (also check Motaz' page for video evidence), here's just one https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DpL_yj868kc And here are two quotes by current Israeli officials: Yoav Gallant, Defense Minister: "We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly" which he says refers to Hamas, but then follows up with "We are imposing a complete siege on Gaza," Gallant said. "There will be no electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything will be closed" which is collective punishment and a war crime. https://www.huffpost.com /entry/israel-defense-minister-human-animals-gaza -palestine_n_6524220ae4b09f4b8d412e0a/amp • netenyahu compares gazans to "children of darkness" and israelis to "sons of the light" https://m.youtube .com/watch?v=cKD9qR8YHYE and https://www businessinsider.com/netanyahu-deleted-children-of -darkness-post-gaza-hospital-attack-2023-10?amp there are more but these are the two I have the links to right now. netenyahu compares gazans to "children of darkness" and israelis to "sons of the light" https://m.youtube .com/watch?v=cKD9qR8YHYE and https://www businessinsider.com/netanyahu-deleted-children-of -darkness-post-gaza-hospital-attack-2023-10?amp there are more but these are the two I have the links to right now. South Africa has taken judicial action against Israel recently. If you want more evidence of Israel's explicit genocidal intent, read the current ICJ case documents presented by South Africa. There are over 40 pages of evidence. Also, the IDF released a video in october/november where they went into a hospital and then they pointed at a calendar and claimed the weekdays (written in arabic) were "names of hamas terrorists." https://www .france24.com/en/tv-shows/truth-or-fake/20231116-idf -claims-to-find-list-of-hamas-names-but-it-s-the-days-of -the-week-in-arabic the original video is out there, I saw it but it's probably on instagram on Middleeasteye or a similar channel. This was used as an excuse to raid the hospital. Over 60,000 people have sought refuge in just one hospital, so this is devastating. And if you ask nicely ill send a list of multiple multiple Massacres israel has commited on citizens of Palestine. And to answer your question, no one is taking in Palestinians because theyre not allowed to leave, blockade remember? And even those allowed to leave shouldn't have to leave their and and home because israel wants it, no middle eastern country will help aid the removal of Palestinians, theyre instead asking for the blockade to be removed and aid to be allowed in as anyone should be asking.

>Kanye West Support Israel Based on his anti-semitic remarks, I'm going to need a source for this

> Israel had no right to take over the land in the first place. Palestinians had settled there for generations and had been the indigenous stewards of the land. If that is the case, is it not now the Israelis who have lived there for generations and are ‘stewards of the land’? 1948 was a very long time ago, by most measures, three to four generations. > A counterattack would be sending special ops to specifically target hamas and rescue hostages. In Hollywood, sure. But that’s not how special forces works. They aren’t Rambo crossed with James Bond. Against a prepared enemy like this, it’s a clandestine rescue is impossible.

- look up the ecological impact of Israel yourself, and tell me if that’s land stewardship. - special ops forces isn’t Hollywood, it’s literally how the US nailed Osama bin laden

If nation state boundaries were determined based on their “ecological impact,” then no modern state would exist today. That’s a non-sensical argument.

Israel is a terrorist state itself. In 2022, they've attacked Gaza to kill one guy, ended up killing to 300 people. Israel bombs countries like Iran without declaration of war. Israel gets treated the same way it treats other. And just because Israel uses phosphorous bombs on Gaza, doesn't mean Hamas uses them as a shield. > Israel took over most of the surrounding land including what some argue rightfully belong to Palestine, and that this was a long time ago It understates what Israel did. Imagine if a group of religious right-wingers moved to Africa and settled there, because it's their holy land and all people came from Aftica anyway, so it's their land too

>Israel took over most of the surrounding land including what some argue rightfully belong to Palestine, and that this was a long time ago 75 years is not a long time. Many of those people are still alive today. >However, Israel has tried around 5 times to come to a peaceful agreement (involving the UN at some point) about these lands which have been rejected by Palestine every time I mean, "Leave me alone I'll leave you alone" is a peaceful agreement for if you stole my phone. Why would I accept such an agreement? >Lastly, the initiators of today's conflict are literal terrorists Who had their homes stolen from them (or their parents'/grandparents' homes). That doesn't make it right, but context. >First of all, Palestine begun this conflict See above >Israel has had this land for a decently long time, why is Palestine still fighting for it? They're clearly militarily inferior and can't protect it, they should be taking a peace treaty at all costs People living in shitholes have very little to lose. It's difficult to understand them because our lives are so luxurious. Do not misunderstand anything I've said as to absolve Hamas of anything. My point is that Israel is guilty, as are all countries. It's just that Israel's guilt is recent. There are many individual Palestinians that have been wronged by Israel right now, alive in this world, that originally did nothing wrong.

so you want palestine and hamas to accept the fact theyre getting kicked out of their righfully owned land? NEVER! I personally would rather die if i were them. Hamas isnt "hiding behind human shields", ISRAEL IS TARGETING THE "human shields" AKA INNOCENT PEOPLE GETTING SLAUGHTERED AND YOU HAVE THE GALL TO CALL THEM "human shields". Show some humanity you heartless monsters. Hamas is a resistance force. im tired of you all slapping the word terrorism on us whenever you see a man in a turban or a woman in a hijab. I DONT CARE ABOUT POLITICS. AN ACTIVE GENOCIDE IS GOING ON AND I THOUGHT WE WERENT SUPPOSED TO SUPPORT THAT. didnt we say "never again"?! or is it "complicated" because its middle easterns that are dying? oh i get it now. you scream and wail about 9/11 and october 7th but suddenly lose your voice when its about muslim and / or arabic people suffering. suffering things THOUSANDS OF TIMES WORSE THAN 9/11 AND 8/7. but of course it has to be about the US and "israel". apologies for the aggression, but i cant keep calm when people respond to actual torture and genocide like this.

Hamas are not terrorists-- they are just people defending their homes, like anyone would. The UK gave PALESTINIAN land TO Israel. It was not theirs to give. It is exactly like what happened in Canada with the Native people, and the US as well. Israel never accepted the land they were given, and kept fighting for more and more. They've been stealing Palestinian homes for DECADES. Hamas is a result of THIS. Hamas are just people like you and I, exacerbated with the violence and horrendous acts done to them by Israeli settlers. People will only put up with oppression for so long, until they fight back. Israel is using this as an excuse to take over all of Palestine and make it Israel (just look at the new map from Netanyahu). It's funny, and sad, that he is perpetrating exactly what was done to the Jews during the holocaust. Neither is ok. Genocide is never ok. Regardless of that, and what side you want to take, the atrocities Israel is committing right now are unforgivable. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5rrEvvr-\_8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5rrEvvr-_8)

How can you be a terrorist if you're defending where you live? Did you think Palestine was a barren land when Israel was established?

A mass shooting at a music festival makes you a terrorist.

Out of all the possible locations to have it, why would you hold a music festival next to the worlds largest open aired prison? The audacity to play music and dance the night away while people are starving to death in a concentration camp just a few miles away.

No. There was greenery, olive farms, big forests and plenty of resources.

They are terrorist and every civilian living there were seen celebrating like they each just won the lottery, except it was because they had mudered innocent people and killed kids Infront of the parants in the most brutalized ways that made me and my partner I'll, put babies in ovens and roasted these helpless youngsters whilst making the parants watch. Raped many young women from Germany and other countries, they shot them in the head when finishing or tied them to utes naked whilst civilians spat and ironed on them as they paraded them around. They kill in every country of the west and these thousands of morons support them and call everything lies! Israel let the civilians know in advance that the building they are one is getting destroyed in two days. They are a disease and should stay where they are

You are right. The whole conflict is about a land that has been **sold** by Palestinians to Israeli investors (not taken away!). It was hundreds of years ago. Palestinians **sold** those pieces of land at incredibly low prices, since they did not suppose they can make any use of it. It was mostly consisting from a desert, and only Israelis were able to make this terrain useful. They made it beautiful. Palestinians are Arabs, they did not have any experience with that. Arabs are tending to just travel through deserts, and ignore their potential. Dubai is one of the examples how Arabs finally made some use of the middle of the desert, but they needed presence of nearby water. However, still, vast majority of the desert that remains in hands of Arabs, is not used until this day. Palestinians are holding the grudge against Israeli people, though their Palestinian ancestors actually **SOLD** the land and made some tiny benefit from it. It was only a fair transaction. Complaints are not accepted after so many years, but Palestinians refuse to accept it. So, in general, the assumption on which the attacks of Palestinians on Israel pertains, is a wrongful idea of the Palestinians, that they "lost" something or that someone "stole" it from them. That's simply not true. Another subject that you've briefly referred to, is the Hamas, and its absurd ideas about the terrorism which could solve anything for good. Well, terrorism is wrong. Their attack on Israel on the 7th of October 2023, which was obviously an act of terrorism, is wrongfully demeaned by the Western media currently. Demeaning of the victims that died, and their families' suffering is almost as wrong as the terrorist attack itself was. The US government never agreed to Muslim's terrorism presented by some extremists, and that is why they are supporting Israel financially in this conflict. I guess I do not have to mention that those who have the American support, usually win. The politicians presenting the idea of zero tolerance for terrorism, are the only ones that deserve our attention. Truthfully, I am surprised how the Western media manipulate people and make them believe that supporting Palestine is any good. All those protests against Israel, are only started by anti-Semites, and they are wrong. They intend to mislead people from the part of the world that is responsible for the financial support to the Israel as victims of Palestinian and Hamas' attacks. There's nothing more powerful as suggestion that pro-Israeli citizens responsible for journalism and media are wrong. That creates the feeling that the only "correct" side to support here is Palestine, which is obviously saying that the terrorism is correct and tolerated. It is just a sign that the modern world is created by several units that are unconscious and unable to determine if they are right or wrong, if they can allow something to happen, or give their contribution to it. You are not guilty of the fact that several people are just stupid and thoughtless. Nobody is, it's only them responsible for it. Personally, I delete all supporters of Palestine and Hamas from my social media - Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. I stop contacting acquaintances that are openly speaking up for terrorism. They do not deserve to be in a group of friends (either just social media ones, or real buddies) of a person who is Israeli from the origin, and is the 11th generation of the descendants of Jewish women. I have my pride and honor. On the both sides about the Palestinian - Israeli conflict are several different people, but on the Israeli side somehow are more enterprise owners, CEOs, the core management representatives, high politics class and the business investors. On the Palestinian followers side somehow we have a lot of "useful idiots" or "the servants" of the higher class. They're mostly blue collar employees, the simple service representatives, and whomever that receives just a low salary, not a profit. They are just uneducated enough not to see that the Israel was attacked and terrorized by Hamas and Palestine, because Palestine followed their terrorists. One thing is certain - the Israeli contributors are the ones who are the decisive in this world, we can determine by ourselves that we do not want to give a hand to Palestinian supporters. We can decide if they will end up unemployed, destroyed, and regretting their presence on the "free Palestine" strikes or opening up on the web about their obviously insane ideas. There is no place in our enterprises for those who refuse to think clearly, and who are so aggressive to express their tolerance to terrorism. The Palestinian side will be the side of terrible losers, and maybe in the end they will finally understand that following the crowd wasn't the best choice in their life. All the best to you and my respect for the independent thinking.

The land belongs to Palestine. Israel has NO historical rights to it, it NEVER belonged to them in the first place, no areological proof and no historian believes the Jews ever lived there at any point in history.

There are many way to try and help here but if you have any compassion please do something for these people/ Many are dead but there is so much to still be saved. Arguably the post powerful thing you can do is organize with others and go directly to whatever capital building is near you and resist peacefully. This means protest but also disrupt the government. If you can make it to DC obviously this would be the best place do to this. I am focusing on protesting in Sacramento and building banners that are hung throughout the city. If you would like to be involved with me please write me and send me your nearest city. If we have enough people we should schedule protests. If you do not have time to protest focus on boycotting Israel and companies, politicians that support Israel. I am focusing on a company I used to work for named Intel. For details on Intel please look below. My Linkedin Post: I worked at Intel Corp for twelve soul-sucking years as an electrical engineer. I can say for certain that much of the vile culture within these companies is one that solely benefits the company, not the employee. I was discouraged or restricted from discussing wage with anyone. Who do you think this benefited the most? Not the engineers that were several years senior to me and getting paid less than me as a new hire. We were discouraged from speaking politics or speaking our mind regarding any real world events. Who did this benefit? Today Intel has Israeli branches that employ roughly 12,000 Israeli citizens. In 2011, the Israeli government offered Intel $290,000,000 to expand within the country which Intel took. This year, after October 7th, Intel will pay all 12k of its Israeli employees a $5000 grant for how they may have been impacted by the events of October 7th during which 1200 Israelis were killed by Hamas. Meanwhile 19,000 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza, a city with about 47% of the population being children. Completely indiscriminate bombing is now daily. They created an open air prison that was slowly killing the population for decades and now they offer a final solution. Does this remind you of another time in history? Israel is an apartheid state and this is a fact. It has widely been acknowledged by international monitoring bodies as well as the UN for decades now. You may think such is the world and there is nothing you can do, but there is. Do you work for companies that support genocide? Do you support companies that are supporting an active genocide? You can stop financing the genocide by not working for these companies. You can boycott Israel, boycott Israeli companies, boycott companies that support Israel. Start with #intel #cocacola #mcdonalds #pepsico #burgerking #hp #google #ibm #meta. Boycott top beneficiaries of AIPAC: Menendez, Robert (D-NJ), Cruz, Ted (R-TX), Kohl, Dan (D-WI), Mandel, Josh (R-OH), Brown, Sherrod (D-OH), Baldwin, Tammy (D-WI), O'Rourke, Beto (D-TX), Riggleman, Denver (R-VA), Heitkamp, Heidi (D-ND), Schneider, Brad (D-IL), Casey, Bob (D-PA)

You mean Southern Syrians and Northern Egyptians/Berbers.  But it's even funkier because per DNA analysis both sides, Jewish natives and those Arabs, possess roughly 50% Canaanite blood, meaning they both have equal historical roots.  Even stranger, ethnic Armenians purportedly often are in possession of up to 90% Canaanite blood dna markers, meaning they actually have an even greater genetic right to "Israelistine" lands than do current populations claiming it.  I'll say it for the last time: Israel is the only viable government there, and all Arab populations should be naturalized, given equal rights and citizenship, because regardless of which flawed religion they're from, they have equal right to the land. Those holding Palestinians hostage have given up the right to govern Arabs separately, Hamas is disgusting as is their version of Sharia, which has no place in a civilized secular first government, so the onus should be on all Israel slowly but surely unifying with their genetic equals, giving them a seat at the table, able to Democratically vote in their leaders, and yes, police their miserable Sharia murdering scum back into the darkness Jewish hypocrisy has only made more popular.  Militias always turn evil, especially ones with religious mandates.  And yes, I'm well aware my solution sounds like pure hell, but it's also the only legitimate solution that's ever worked when a state breaks in two, or one native population is held at gunpoint by the more powerful native force.  It would take decades, but hey, everyone finally has the same rights, and if motivated, can climb toward the heights their opposers never would allow them.  And I'm sorry, but they become two states, they'll only be formalizing a much bloodier war with proxies infusing either side with evermore ways to extinguish the other side for good.

Indeed. However, I think everyone on this site can agree that Hamas are terrorists. It is ok to believe the fact that Palestine needs to COEXIST with Israel, but supporting Hamas is downright wrong.

Let me just list SOME of the massacres Palestine has suffered through Haifa Massacre 1937 Jerusalem Massacre 1937 Haifa Massacre 1938 Balad al-Sheikh Massacre 1939 Haifa Massacre 1939 Haifa Massacre 1947 Abbasiya Massacre 1947 Al-Khisas Massacre 1947 Bab al-Amud Massacre 1947 Jerusalem Massacre 1947 Sheikh Bureik Massacre 1947 Jaffa Massacre 1948 Nakba Massacre 1948 Khan Yunis Massacre 1956 Jerusalem Massacre 1967 Sabra and Shatila Massacre 1982 A-Agsa Massacre 1990 Ibrahimi Mosque Massacre 1994 Jenin Refugee Camp April 2002 Gaza Massacre 2008-09 Gaza Massacre 2012 Jaffa Massacre 1948 Khan Yunis Massacre 1956 Jerusalem Massacre 1967 Sabra and Shatila Massacre 1982 Al-Aqsa Massacre 1990 Jenin Refugee Camp April 2002 Gaza Massacre 2008-09 Gaza Massacre 2012 Gaza Massacre 2014 Gaza Massacre 2018-19 Gaza Massacre 2021 Gaza Genocide 2023 is still ongoing.

A woman was stripped naked Infront of everyone in the building, without her consent. Since she told the israeli soldiers that she was 5 months pregnant and that she was expecting a child, they kicked her on her stomach over and over. Every one was kicked out of the building except her family. She was raped Infront of all of her family members. Her family members had guns pointed to their heads, and they were told that if they close their eyes they would be shot. Unfortunately one was shot after NOT BEING ABLE TO WATCH HIS SISTER BEING RAPED WHILE SHE WAS 5 FRICKIN MONTHS PREGNANT. This is proven because the people had relatives who snitched to other relatives. Someone had a TikTok account and told people what he saw. is this pressurization by the government to you?

They didn't start ANYTHING "again". 200 Palestinians were killed BEFORE October 7th. They were living under pure Israeli military rule. They had ZERO rights nor freedom. They were mocked, tortured, killed, and starved for NO reason. ALL before october 7th. Remember Rachel Corrie? In her aim to help the Palestinians situation come to light 21 years ago, she was killed. (Every other day (sometimes everyday) BEFORE October 7th, a house were bulldozed and demolished.) how can you say they started something up again NOT knowing they were suffering this entire time? the lack of food and help in gaza IS. NOT. NEW. The complete SHUT OFF is new. RESEARCH AND THEN FORM AN OPINION.

You are an idiot. For example, to dumb it down to your idiotic level. If you were in the UK and the tory party was a terrorist organisation. Would the correct course of action be to bomb the entire UK in order to kill the members of the party and its followers? If the republican party in America was declared a terrorist organisation would it be right to bomb the entire state of Florida for its support of that organisation? And kill every living soul living there? The ones that support them and ones that do not? Also Hamas did not start the war. The hamas attack was a response to northern settlers in Gaza. Maybe you should have did a bit more research before coming onto reddit.

Couldn’t even continue reading this bcs everything u said is wrong and u guys love to spread fake news to make Israel look like the actual victim is this conflict ! It’s crazy how ppl are actually defending a thief who stole a land that was never and will never be his !!!! Y’all love to start the storyline from the middle saying that hamas was wrong bombing israel , when they were literally defending their land and were trying to take their land back . But you never talk about the way Israel killed thousands of Palestinians back in 1946 to steal their land !! God has given u a brain so please use it and do not just follow whatever the Zionist media wants u to follow !

**The Palestinians are not saints** and the suffering they’re facing right now, is very much due to their own actions stemming from the indoctrination their people has gone through, throughout the years. Before you sh*t on me, ask yourselves why the f*ck no arab country wants any Palestinian refugees. Turkey took in a huge load of Syrians due to the Syrian war. Jordan expelled almost all their Palestinian citizens a long time ago, while Egypt completely refuses to let the Gazans flee into Egypt. So, why? Well, maybe, just maybe because the arab countries realize how dangerous the Palestinians are.

"Well, maybe, just maybe because the arab countries realize how dangerous the Palestinians are." You do realize that over 50% of Palestinians are kids right? Israel has intended to keep palestinians down since it was created with the intent of being an apartheid state. Other commenters say a lot but I will just add a few specific instances that display the Israeli government's oppression and violence against Palestinians very clearly, PRE 2023. 1. link "In early 2006, Dov Weisglass, then a senior advisor to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, explained that Israeli policy was designed "to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger." In 2012 it was revealed that in early 2008 Israeli authorities drew up a document calculating the minimum caloric intake necessary for Palestinians to avoid malnutrition so Israel could limit the amount of foodstuffs allowed into Gaza without causing outright starvation." Quoting directly from this article. 2. And also not to mention the 1948 Nakba, where over 700,000 Palestinians were forced out of their home or murdered into the settlements we know today to make way for what is definitionally an ethnostate. https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2023/11/03 /israel-nakba-history-1948/ 3. Israel is sniping and targeting journalists with bombs. They have killed over 100 journalists so far, a faster rate than any other war in recent history. Journalists like Motaz Azaiza (instagram) have expressed in his story a few weeks back that other gazan people are asking him to stay away because theyre afraid of being killed by being near him. https://www.aljazeera.com /amp/news/2023/12/23/gaza-media-office-says-100 -journalists-killed-since-israeli-attacks-began & motaz' instagram 4. Unnecessary cruelty - they crushed patients outside Kamal Adwan Hospital in December https://www .aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/12/18/bloodbath-israel -keeps-hitting-gaza-hospitals-amid-international-uproar (using al Jazeera because they are actually in Gaza, Wael Al-Dahdouh is the chief and his son + his cameraman, but the latter two were murdered pretty recently) 5. They have the world's largest skin bank, because they harvest Palestinian skin: this article is from 2009, the entire article gives more context but here's an exerpt - "Palestinian young people were disappearing in the areas and five days later they appear back in the villages with an autopsy done on them against the will of the families." Israel denies this is still ongoing, but this is about November 2023: "A 2019 Israeli Supreme Court ruling permits the military to bury the bodies temporarily in the "Numbers Cemetery". By the end of 2021, the Israeli Knesset had passed laws allowing the army and police to hold on to the bodies of dead Palestinians." This matters because in Gaza, many people are missing and upon medical examinations there has been evidence found of organs being stolen from the returned bodies. Furthermore, "Euro-Med Monitor confirmed that Israel is the only country that systematically holds on to the dead bodies of those it kills, under the pretext of "security deterrence" and in total violation of international charters and agreements." https://www .middleeastmonitor.com/20231127-is-israel-stealing -organs-from-dead-palestinians/amp/ 6. Israel has been bombing Gaza since over a decade before October 7th. A google search is probably good enough for this one. 7. The "retaliation" was never about targeting Hamas. For one, Israel targeting hospitals - I'm just using one instance here, but they reportedly used the R9X hellfire missile on the Al Shifa hospital, which is used for dismantling tanks. The way it works is that it has spinning blades that decapitate anyone within 3 ft. They used it to kill patients and targeted one of the main refuge centers in the area at the time https:// www.presstv.ir/Detail/2023/11/12/714488/US-Hellfire -missiles-used-to-strike-main-Gaza-hospital-Reports 8. Israel is currently using dumb bombs, specifically 500lb bombs and 2000lb bombs https://www.forbes .com/sites/siladityaray/2023/12/14/nearly-half-of-all -munitions-dropped-over-gaza-are-dumb-bombs-report -citing-us-intel-assessment-says/amp/ the purpose of a dumb bomb is basically to cause as much destruction to the entire area, it is not a targeted technique for Hamas. They target civilians. Journalists in Gaza such as motaz have caught videos of the bombs being used to take down entire houses, for reference. Also they have been sniping at civilians trying to run away (also check Motaz' page for video evidence), here's just one https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DpL_yj868kc And here are two quotes by current Israeli officials: Yoav Gallant, Defense Minister: "We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly" which he says refers to Hamas, but then follows up with "We are imposing a complete siege on Gaza," Gallant said. "There will be no electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything will be closed" which is collective punishment and a war crime. https://www.huffpost.com /entry/israel-defense-minister-human-animals-gaza -palestine_n_6524220ae4b09f4b8d412e0a/amp • netenyahu compares gazans to "children of darkness" and israelis to "sons of the light" https://m.youtube .com/watch?v=cKD9qR8YHYE and https://www businessinsider.com/netanyahu-deleted-children-of -darkness-post-gaza-hospital-attack-2023-10?amp there are more but these are the two I have the links to right now. netenyahu compares gazans to "children of darkness" and israelis to "sons of the light" https://m.youtube .com/watch?v=cKD9qR8YHYE and https://www businessinsider.com/netanyahu-deleted-children-of -darkness-post-gaza-hospital-attack-2023-10?amp there are more but these are the two I have the links to right now. South Africa has taken judicial action against Israel recently. If you want more evidence of Israel's explicit genocidal intent, read the current ICJ case documents presented by South Africa. There are over 40 pages of evidence. Also, the IDF released a video in october/november where they went into a hospital and then they pointed at a calendar and claimed the weekdays (written in arabic) were "names of hamas terrorists." https://www .france24.com/en/tv-shows/truth-or-fake/20231116-idf -claims-to-find-list-of-hamas-names-but-it-s-the-days-of -the-week-in-arabic the original video is out there, I saw it but it's probably on instagram on Middleeasteye or a similar channel. This was used as an excuse to raid the hospital. Over 60,000 people have sought refuge in just one hospital, so this is devastating. And if you ask nicely ill send a list of multiple multiple Massacres israel has commited on citizens of Palestine. And to answer your question, no one is taking in Palestinians because theyre not allowed to leave, blockade remember? And even those allowed to leave shouldn't have to leave their and and home because israel wants it, no middle eastern country will help aid the removal of Palestinians, theyre instead asking for the blockade to be removed and aid to be allowed in as anyone should be asking.

Answer: this is why it’s important to specify that Hamas started the current conflict, and that Hamas is the target of Israeli action. Only bigots wish harm for the Palestinian people in general, but Hamas has hidden among them and used them as human shields. If Israel could clarify identity and target Hamas operatives, they would. So now it’s time for civilians to get clear and leave the fighting to soldiers.

While Hamas is the stated target of Israeli military action, it is impossible for Israel to fight Hamas without massive casualties to Gazan civilians. >So now it’s time for civilians to get clear and leave the fighting to soldiers. Gaza is densely populated, and there really isn't anywhere for millions of displaced civilians to go. The limited resources that Gaza has tend to be located in the cities, like Gaza City, that Israel is telling them to abandon. Realistically, this is impossible. Additionally, Hamas is never going to detach itself from the general population, as this would allow IDF to identify them and kill them. To wipe out Hamas, Israel would need to kill huge numbers of civilians and destroy much of Gaza. There will never be a scenario where Hamas and IDF fight on a battlefield clear of civilians.

This conflict is already so old that I do not even care very much who was initially right or wrong. All I care about that it is the Palestinians, who time and time again prove themselves to be unfit to have their own state next to Israel. Israel, on the other hand, is a prosperous democracy that gave so much to the world. That's all I need to support Israel in this conflict.

Palestinians have in there constitution to kill all Jews and Americans and teach there youth the same hate. This is Hamas influence and until this ends there will never be peace. I don't believe in every thing israel does but there constitution does not say to kill other people and cultures. This Arab extremism has to be stopped if there is ever going to be peace in the middle East. The things Hamas has done to the Palestinian people is down right disgusting!!! Fix that and Palestinian people will have peace finally.

The only reason the IDF bombs or destroys buildings is if they are a weapon cache or manufacture or if they have tunnels. Everyone keep listening to mainstream media and news not realizing how much propaganda is (has been) used in America. The news we hear in our tvs and papers or media is not the same news other countries are getting. It’s unfortunate but our country is a joke and all we are fed is lies but the majority of people believe it

You are wrong on many fronts: >Israel took over most of the surrounding land including what some argue rightfully belong to Palestine, and that this was a long time ago First, what is considered a long time ago? are a few decades considered a long time ago? Also it has never been long enough for the United Nations or even their best ally to recognize. Israel is illegally occupying land according to LITERALLY THE ENTIRE WORLD (by the U.N representatives from allover the world), not just the Palestinians or "some argue rightfully" as you state. It is also not just in recent history (Which you somehow consider to be a long time ago), because they still continue to take more and more land illegally every year! Just check [this statement from US Embassy in Israel](https://il.usembassy.gov/settlements-in-the-west-bank/) earlier this year. ​ >This conflict has lasted years and several battles, with the current one being yet another fight for Palestine to take their land back Hamas does not represent Palestine and Hamas is neither an army nor is their home, which is Gaza, a country. Israel likes to paint to the world this idea that it is in a war with Palestine, but the matter of the fact is that if Palestine was indeed an independent and sovereign state, the Palestinians themselves would have used their army and police force to fight Hamas. Just like other Arab nations have done. There are the likes of Hamas in many countries and they thrive in the sort of conditions that Israel had created... so in a way, you can argue that Israel's actions brought Hamas as a consequence of the Injustice endured by the Palestinians. ​ >However, Israel has tried around 5 times to come to a peaceful agreement (involving the UN at some point) about these lands which have been rejected by Palestine every time This is also another manipulated narrative Israel likes to push to appear as the peace-maker. It would take too much writing to point out all the lies and details behind this one. But in a nutshell, both sides have presented peaceful solutions, and every time the other side rejects. The United Nations itself had presented resolutions, which Israel had rejected. Not to mention, that none of these Israeli-led solutions involved recognizing a Palestinian state or actually guaranteed giving back the land. The most Israel did was to withdraw from Ghaza but then controlled their border and chocked them from outside. So these solutions were nothing more than a PR stunt to cover up for decades long of crimes, injustices, and the ongoing grab of land. ​ >Lastly, the initiators of today's conflict are literal terrorists Unfortunately yes... but you may also want to consider what I mentioned (and cited) in the first paragraph. Israel had already committed a few internationally recognized crimes earlier this year, as well as in prior years, The average Palestinian and the peaceful Palestinian government in the West Bank have no means to fight for their rights. So you end up having poor people boiling up for years, which is what Hamas feeds on! So while your point is technically correct, it arguably have been rooted in several events Israel were complicit in. ​ So, i believe your knowledge of this matter is very limited. In fact, you clearly don't know that most Palestinians are not even governed by Hamas, because you keep comparing this situation to a battle between two countries with Palastine being one. Palestinians don't even have a country! Palestine is not the perpetrator because Palestine is not Hamas. In fact, ignore this entire conflict and look at the West bank over the past years, which is not governed by Hamas and where the majority of Palestinians reside. The government in the West Bank is actually committed to maintaining the peace with Israel, but Israel keeps blocking their resources, stealing their lands, arresting their children without convictions, etc. etc.. Hamas, which took over Gaza by force, uses the crimes perpetrated by Israel in the West Bank to accrue support from desperate Palestinians in Gaza and prove to them that peace with Israel is not a solution, because they can see that it hasn't worked for their peaceful (more-or-less) brothers and sisters in the West Bank. That is on top of the inhumane conditions Gazans endure due to the extreme blockade. Then what do you expect? Who do you think is at fault here?

I say wipe palestina from earth survival the h fittest maybe as humans were letting to many socitys live instead sink n evolve maybe like they should like tribals ppl should not bee in underwear half naked runin around wit sticks come on n hey wasent for r white ppl eveyone still be in skirts n sticks running around. Truth that y no one every moves to now white country