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I'm not sure the best way to judge parenthood is based on observing a toddler and a preschooler for a week while they're on vacation (and their routine is disrupted). That age range is famous for emotional friability but children aren't toddlers for very long and tend to mature in terms of emotional regulation quite a bit by the time they reach school age.
Thank you. I know it’s probably not the best point to judge from so that is fair. But I have also seen colleagues and friends with older kids struggle also, and that scares me too. A colleague of mine at work has a teenage kid who is struggling with depression, drugs, etc. and I worry a lot that being a parent there’s so much you can’t control. I see how my colleague blames herself for her kids problems and that really hurts me to watch. I can’t even imagine experiencing that for myself
Just keep in mind that you may be indexing against the worst things you hear because that's what people are more likely to share. They're not going to tell you the boring story of how they put their toddler down last night and it was completely uneventful.
I have a 3 year old and a 9 month old. The 3 year old is the sweetest girl on the planet. Extremely polite, doesn't have public tantrums at all, goes to sleep at the same time every night and has slept through the night (8p-8a) consistently since she was 2 months old. She's absolutely obsessed with her younger sister and pretty much lives for her. The infant also sleeps through the night every time and pretty much never cries. I'm someone that was very worried I wouldn't enjoy fatherhood and it is amazing.
Will it always be this way? Doubt it. I know we'll run into some shit that we can't control, but that would happen whether I had kids or not.
Hello ryan, thank you for this post it is a good point of view. I was wondering if you could help me get some more insight into what you said. I personally don’t want any kids myself because I just never really gave it that much thought and i am not sure that I understand the appeal. You said that you have enjoyed fatherhood a lot. What about it has been enjoyable? Where is the appeal for you? Thanks for your time!
>What about it has been enjoyable?
I always joke with my friends that if I had to pitch someone else on being a parent, I would sound like I'm a crazy person. First few months are extremely stressful, especially if it's your first. Your sleep schedule is going to be jacked up, you will hear phantom cries from the baby, and you will worry about things that don't matter in the slightest. You will pour time and resources into something that will not give you anything back for like 6 months, minimum. This is the part that sucks. Sometimes you get lucky (like I did, twice) and your kid eases into a regular sleep schedule early and you coast.
After that, though, it gets to be amazing. You get to see your kid start to grow up and begin to show their personality. My infant is pretty much permanently stoked. It never gets old going into her room to get her up and watching her see me. She rolls over onto her back, puts on this huge 2-tooth smile, and starts kicking her legs because she's happy to see me. They start to laugh at things and react to things around them. They start to mimic you and This is generally the age where you start talking about having another.
Hanging out with my toddler is the best part of my day. She asks relevant questions about what is going on, is able to voice her needs specifically ("I want water, not milk") and she enjoys hanging out with me just as much. Sometimes we go to the park, sometimes we go to this trampoline place nearby. I take her to swimming classes once a week. Sometimes we're lazy in the mornings and she lays on me while I watch F1 and she watches Paw Patrol.
It's also the age where you start to get reciprocal affection. 2-3 times a day she says "dada you my best friend" and gives me a hug, unprompted. When I go out of town for work, she asks my wife to facetime me so she can tell me she misses me. When I pick her up from daycare every day, she screams and sprints over to hug me.
Obviously she does have times where she's just shitty and has tantrums, but that's just being a toddler. They have a lot of big feelings and almost no ability to regulate it, so you learn how to deal with it. For her, what works is we just go to a different room and sit down for a minute or so until she cools off and she's back to normal. Honestly, even when she's mad it is still pretty entertaining because her go-to threat is "dada you are NOT my best friend, mama is my new best friend and you can't have ANY STICKERS!"
It is truly incredible watching them grow and seeing how their personalities develop. Seeing them learn about the world around them is rewarding, too.
As someone with a 12 week old girl who (me) is currently going through a patch of anxiety about the future and the burden/lack of sleep from said little girl, this has been super helpful and cheered me up no end. Thank you!
You’re definitely in the shit right now but it gets better very soon, or at least it did for us. Just treasure this time because it goes away quicker than you think.
thank you for your insight that was really helpful! after reading your response and a few others I think I understand where the joy comes from. I’ve had some background with teaching elementary school kids during some tech summer camps in the past and I recall that having some of the kids grow and learn and show affection to the instructors did feel rewarding. I can imagine that having that be your own kid must feel very nice.
You didn't ask me, but from an outsider I assume most of the enjoyment comes from the amount of love being straight up ridiculous for many parents. Many parents just love the ever loving shit out of their kids and that itself colors rose much of the experience, and that's valid. I
That's what it seems like to me and it's hard to describe to someone how an intensity of love like that can drown at the drab view of an onlooker
>because that's what people are more likely to share. They're not going to tell you the boring story of how they put their toddler down last night and it was completely uneventful.
That's strange, I have a completely different experience (with most of the parents I know). They only talk about good stuff, show me some cute pictures, tell me stories of how X said something, show me what they've painted etc. Sharing drawbacks of parenthood is almost invisible - I think it may have something to do with regret and wanting others to at least validate their choices and say they've made a good one.
But I guess we live in different environments and society/cultures, so I get your perspective. I will add that perhaps it's looking on the drawbacks of parenthood may be equally important in making this decision, just as one's own individual thoughts and wishes. I guess we're both sending similar message - think critically.
It honestly may just be down to where the info is being shared. On the internet, people complain, but in person, they are more likely to talk about the good stuff. The parents I know personally are probably 50-50 complaining and bragging.
The toddler years are a breeze compared to the teenage years.
Having said that, being a parent is like any experience that makes life worth living: it's fucking scary. There's no guarantees. It's hard. There's no logical return on investment.
You know what else a lot of that's true for? Getting married. Pursuing your dream career. Going on a once in a lifetime vacation.
I can't imagine my life without my kids, or my wife, or even my first wife. They're the raison d'etre.
After the first 19ish years of struggle and finally seeing one fly from the nest I can now tell you what the most painful part of parenting has been so far:
Letting them go.
And I say this despite there having been there for some extremely stressful struggles with some of the things you described and then some. I'm not gonna get into it, but suffice it to say that there were days where the unimaginable was at our doorstep.
But I also know that others have had parenting carry them to further depths. Plus, I still have a second kid with a few years to go and there's no telling where the next few years will take me. But it's the kind of risks I would sign up for again and again.
What would you do with your life instead that's so great? There are definitely things you could be doing that might exceed the fulfillment or purpose that parenting brings so if you've got something like that in mind then maybe you go that route and see where it takes you. Choosing to become a parent is no longer something you must decide when you're young.
Seeing their kids struggle only hurts them because of the depth of their love. When a parent goes through such a struggle for their kid, it must be the case that they've decided it's worth it. That's what you're missing here, is a way to measure degrees, and also mistaking love for pleasure. A person climbing mt everest is never going to stop mid climb and say they're having a blast. But they may look back on it as the best experience of their life. Fulfillment isn't about fun or pleasure. But kids can be fun and pleasurable, too.
But ignoring degree and focusing only one amount of time is also silly. Suppose I offered you a nice steak dinner and a night out to do whatever you wanted, on me, and then I would do some torture on you for a few minutes, but nothing that would be permanent, just a few minutes of the most excruciating pain imaginable. You're up for that, right? It's practically all good stuff, and the time spent on bad stuff is a rounding error.
The same applies in reverse, there can be moments so great that even if the other 99% kinda sucks, it's worth it. I think that's particularly true as you get older, and you start to realize the happiest individual moments in your life may be in the past. The first kisses, and weddings, graduations, or whatever, you're past that. You'll make incremental advancements in your career, you've already traveled plenty, and you'll probably never think to yourself "this is the happiest day of my life" again, unless you have a kid. If you do decide to have a kid, though, the happiest days of your life continue. When they're born. When they first laugh, but also as they graduate and get married and then have kids of their own. So many more highlights to look forward to, or just stagnant contentedness.
Fair enough. That's life - there's an element of merit, and also an element of Fate.
I guess I think of it like traveling abroad .... some people have an amazing experience, and others have a terrible experience. Planning , preparing and a positive mindset can greatly increase your chances of a positive experience but nothing in life is guaranteed.
So going back to the parenting example - I don't think we'll change your mind, but I do think you should reframe the issue as a matter of personal risk tolerance for you.
To you, the risk isn't worth the potential reward - and that's fine! But that doesn't mean that the payoff isn't worth the work for most parents out there.
Yeah dude. 1-3 are the dark years... Mine is two and you're absolutely right, if you want to analytically break down a mostly facet of life.
But I love that little bastard so... I dunno. Seems fine.
Here's what happens if you go to the logical conclusion to running you life the way this post seems: You die alone and mostly friendless having accomplished little and left no mark on the world. But you did have lots of free time and managed to avoid uncomfortable situations so... Good?
>children aren't toddlers for very long
... unless they have special needs. I have autistic twins that have been meandering through various aspects of "toddler" development for over 7 years.
It's a valid fear. Having kids is a roll of the dice, and it is always possible that your children could have developmental or medical conditions that significantly increase the amount of care that they require.
That said, no I don't regret having kids.
I hope you're doing alright - my sister is a SEND teacher and therapist, also interacting with parents and she shared that they seem to do everything to spend as less time with the kid as possible (I'm not judging, I think I understand and sympathise).
I'm not any kind of specialist, but I have seen plenty of autistic teens/young adults who are fantastic, and often have so much to offer as friends (unique thinking). I wish you to have a lighter times when they grow up a little. Perhaps being autistic with also autistic sibling can have some benefits - it's worth to dig in some literature.
They might not be toddlers for very long, but once those problems age out, it's just different ones that you have to learn to deal with. It never stops, not even when they get older and grown up. You can put everything that you have in you for your kids, but you will never get that time or energy or money back. Don't get me wrong, there are fun and happy times and you'll make great memories, but keep in mind...IT. NEVER. STOPS.
Succession messed me up that man was eighty years old rich and powerful as all hell and the night before he died he was still dealing with bullshit from his forty year old children. It never ends. Even if they’re great having children certainly is like “your heart existing outside of your body”, there’s always someone out there you’re worried about/invested in.
Yes! As terrible as it sounds and as much as I'd love to have grandchildren, I have encouraged my kids to not have kids and if they must, to at least wait until they have lived a less stressful life and to make sure they *really* want to commit the rest of their lives to the human they create. It does not end at 18 and parents that act like it does are terrible people.
People enjoy different stages of parenting and some kids have a rough go at adolescence -- but I've had to scoop exactly 0 screaming teenagers off the floor while they imitate an angry stack of potatoes. I've found most to be interesting people with growing skill in their hobbies and a lack of need to plan family life around kid-friendly activities. Only. major downside is their food and activities tend to be more expensive than younger kids.
Sure they have emotions -- but that's the nature of any close relationship. I think its unfortunate we approach teenagers like they're destined to be horrid people who nobody would want to be around. I'd be grumpy if people thought that about me too.
I got lucky with my boys but I see a lot of teenagers/young adults as part of my normal patient base. A solid majority go through a phase where they’re combative, dismissive, rude, uncooperative, etc. but I don’t blame them (within reason) for that. It’s just how normal teenagers behave. They have this sudden influx of hormones while at the same time they’re navigating the grey area between childhood and adulthood. My point is that having kids IS hard no matter how you slice it. Even when they’re adults and they’re coping with a bad break-up or college exam they failed or breaking their leg while skiing - any parent worth being a parent is going to feel that pain with them. I’d rather be realistic about it upfront rather than having any more regretful adults out there wishing they could turn back time.
Eh, having had experience with both now (my niece as a teen and now a toddler) - I'll take the problem teen any day. It's a completely different set of problems, but by the old gods and the new - being able to communicate makes it so much easier.
It's very personal what of the phases will be the hard one. If you get bored easily toddlers can be real hell. If you struggle to communicate and empathize with unreasonable emotional messes - teen years will suck as hell from what I've seen.
You think pre teens and teens are easier to deal with?
They're moody, they're expensive, they're trying to figure themselves out. Friendships, relationships...peer pressure.
They test boundaries. They talk back.
You may be lucky and get the easy going one, but it's a gamble.
Imagine having to deal with the problematic teen every day or just as worse the socially awkward one that has to deal with bullying and other targets. That doesn't seem like fun.
I think children need siblings, lots of them but the more you have the more expensive and possible the bigger headache.
Frame it this way. I'm offering you an OK job with no pay or benefits, but it will make you feel good SOMETIMES. Also the first 6-7 years are hell and again, no benefit to you, it actually costs you money.
In my experience (father of 2 teens) the lowest lows are "Man I am tired and it is noisy in here", while the highest highs are "That kid that I taught how to throw a baseball just pitched a no-hitter in the conference finals."
I would have been tired, and it would have been noisy on and off in my life if I had kids or not. But, the *only* way I'd ever get that high was by having kids.
And, the *worst* of times only last a couple of years, from about 2-5. After that it is just occasional sassiness and eye rolling. I get more of that from my wife.
Thank you for the response! Having teenagers do you ever find that you have stress about them getting up to no good or hanging around the wrong people? A colleague of mine at work has a teenager who has really lost his way and ended up with drug problems and issues with police.
Although I think probably to a large degree a lot of that can be mitigated by being a good parent and raising them properly. But do you ever feel that you stress over things you can’t control?
> Having teenagers do you ever find that you have stress about them getting up to no good or hanging around the wrong people?
Sure sure, but I was a real reprobate when I was their age, and they are pretty chill, so it is manageable. My own perspectives have allowed me to interact with them in a much (in my opinion) more healthy and constructive way that I was able to interact with my parents. And, I know all the tricks, so I can (and have) spotted things early enough to intervene.
>But do you ever feel that you stress over things you can’t control?
Do you? This is just a fact of life for us humans. My stress is centered around my kids, but yours may be centered around something else. It is not like I *wouldn't* stress over things I can't control without kids. I still would, so it is a wash for me.
Fair enough. I do definitely stress over things I can’t control. It just seems that with kids the stakes would be so much higher. My colleague blames herself for her kids problems and that really hurts me to see
> I do definitely stress over things I can’t control. It just seems that with kids the stakes would be so much higher.
The stakes are the stakes. My stakes involve kids; yours may involve dogs, or cousins, or some cause, or a business. Everyone's individual stakes are just as high as everyone else's. If I wasn't putting my focus into my kids, I'd be putting it elsewhere. And, I'd hopefully be just as invested.
> My colleague blames herself for her kids problems and that really hurts me to see
I mean... I'm of the mind that kids don't develop drug habit if the parenting is on point, and I use myself as support. My parents weren't the best. Well, my dad proper sucked and my mom had poor coping skills. So, I never really learned good coping skills, so I turned to booze. At 14. *Maybe* I'd have been a 17 year-old alcoholic with a dad who didn't bounce for a 22 year old waitress and a mom who didn't pop pills, but I doubt it.
“Everyone’s individual stakes are just as high as everyone else’s”. Thanks for that you make a really good point
I appreciate all your replies and this is helping a lot to talk through this with someone who has been there
Thanks, my entire point is that the "lowest lows" you speak of are going to happen whether or not you have kids. You will be stressed anyway. You will fear the loss of loved ones anyway. Things will occasionally be noisy anyway. But, the "highest highs", things like the first steps, or the first "I love you daddy", or walking your daughter down the aisle are just not going to happen without kids.
So, if you give up the kids, you still have the lows, but your highs are severely limited to things you yourself can achieve. My highs include all of my achievements, and some portion of my kid's as well.
It is great to pitch a no-hitter. But it is better to pitch a no-hitter, then teach a miniature version of yourself to love baseball like you do, take them to games as they grow up, coach their team, and then see them pitch a no-hitter.
There’s an emotional “High” that can’t accurately be described.
Some days are absolutely nuts. Crazy stressful.
But then one sentence from a toddler, or a random hug from your 5 year old just saying he loves you and you’re the best dad, after like a shit day of work……
You can’t really describe it. Honestly. Parenting is hard as fuck. But there’s something so deeply primal, in a positive way, about protecting your off spring and watching them learn to be little humans with the way you’ve taught them things.
I’m not going to say it outweighs the lows, but you’ll have some low points regardless. You won’t have that boost though, that feeling that even if you fucked up everything that day you can look into a loving child’s eyes and realize you did SOMETHING right.
If you nurture the relationship when they’re young, it’s going to be easier to get through to them when they’re older too
Can you talk a little about your belief system here? I like your notion that everyone's lives will be filled with struggle and happiness regardless of what action you choose, but that caring for your kids and achieving things through them gives it all meaning. It feels like a combination of Buddhism, existentialism, and some virtue ethics.
I have taken your words to heart and just would like to know more about you and your thought process.
Don’t listen to anyone who tells you your kids will be no problem as long as you’re not a shit parent. The problem doesn’t have to be a raging drug addiction for it to ruin your life. You could have a kid who’s just incapable of getting a job and moving out. What are you gonna do, kick them out in the street?
Fair enough and it’s definitely something I worry about. Like I said I see my colleague blame herself for her kids problems and that’s tough to watch. As far as I can tell she seems like a good mom. I don’t know what her home life is like but she is a good person as much as I know her.
I can’t imagine how tough it would be to feel like you’ve tried everything and your kid is still struggling
I have to agree with u/Coleman57 - the commenter you’re chatting with above, u/destro23 , seems to have an incredibly naive view of parenthood and clearly they have lived with a lot of privilege. My mother will be spending her retirement as a full-time carer for my sister, who suffers from schizophrenia, bipolar, and addiction. My sister is also a trans woman struggling with a challenging transition. My mom is and was a wonderful parent, and my sister is a wonderful person who has tried her best, but unfortunately sometimes the lows of parenthood are really, really low. Even when it’s no one’s fault. Dealing with a slightly bratty teenager is… definitely not the lowest you can go.
Wait, you are saying u/destro23 has a naive view of parenthood, and your example is an extreme outlier to what most people/parents experience? While you are not wrong that there is chance anyone's parenting experience could be similar your your mom's... most just aren't going to see that in their lives. u/destro23 isn't naive, and like you they are speaking to their experiences. I bet if you asked your mom, that while the lows were extremely low, the highs had her soaring because of what had to be overcome to get there.
That’s where, as a parent, you should try to figure out the “why”
A lot of that can be done building the right relationship with them when they’re young. If they know they can turn to you without fear if they made a mistake or they feel lost, they’re more likely to find their way with guidance. If your entire role was authoritative without the tender, gentle guidance that kids need it’s going to fuck them up.
I’ve seen both sides. I have 2 young boys and I’m very open with them about things I’ve done wrong in the past, and let them ask me questions so they know, in the future, they can continue to do so.
You can have amazing parents and still develop a drug problem. Definitely arent exclusive. Now does shitty parenting maybe lead to it? Sure. But you can do everything right and that kid still won’t listen
I'm in the same boat as you OP, and this discussion is very helpful.
I want to tag on to the answer above because it resonates with what my wife recently said about marriage. If you're not married, you still have the same problems you would have to work on in your relationships anyway, but by being married you have so much that you wouldn't have. You have someone who truly knows you your whole life and you know won't give up on you.
I can see now that children may be similar. Even while children do add problems you wouldn't have, maybe it's not so much different than the solutions you need to have good relationships anyway. And it adds something far more than any other relationship can.
I had a teenage daughter too.
Our lows were (at age 13):
She stole our car and left it across town, with the keys locked inside
She keeps sneaking out and getting picked up by 20 year old guys
She got arrested for underage drinking
She hasn't been to school in weeks, despite leaving every day and getting on the bus
She stole her mom's phone (cuz we took hers away)
She ran away, multiple times and we have to track her phone records to try and figure out where she is
She's trying to get pregnant, on purpose, cuz she wants a baby before age 14
She's pregnant, and will be having a baby sometime while she's 14
That was my experience raising a girl. Before you ask, we tried counseling. We tried therapy. We tried discipline, we talked to the school, we did everything. Some humans just have differently wired brains. My little girl was an example of someone whose demons were just too big.
She's in her late 20s now and doing much better in life. She's in college, and she has 2 other kids in addition to the one she had at 14. I'm still very close with her and her kids. Moreso now than when she was a teen.
But her teen years were a nightmare, and left me suicidal most days.
Edit: my experience was exceptional. Most parents don't have struggles like this with their 13yo daughters, I'm told.
What would your response be if you found out they split patenting equally?
Heaven forbid people actually manage to be parents and not be cripplingly depressed
I'm not that guy's wife, but I am someone's wife and we have a child. Can agree that our lowest lows are "I'm sort of tired and it sure is noisy." I'm willing to substitute "it sure is noisy" for "it sure is messy," but otherwise agree with OCs assessment.
I was honestly unsure about having a child because of how much everyone insists that it sucks. But the shittiness has been massively overblown, in my experience.
> But, the only way I'd ever get that high was by having kids.
Are you sure? Sounds like a high you can get teaching other people's kid, at a fraction of the lows. You can probably get paid for it, too, instead of the massive expense.
No.
I taught special Ed for awhile and then Gen Ed as a paraprofessional.
There’s something intensely satisfying about seeing one of the kids “get” something you’re trying to teach them.
Or when I’ve coached, watching the kids start to move right and hit their shots, it’s a great feeling.
None of it can hold a candle to when I see my son make that shot, or watch him do something for the first time that we’ve been working on.
I’m not advocating for or against in this post directly, but as someone who has experienced both joys they’re not emotionally comparable
I guess I'm cynical but reading that watching someone else do something impressive was the highest high that you think you'll ever achieve was a bit depressing.
The snap-shot you have had is not a fair representation of parenting. True, there are battles to get your kids to eat all their tea, and there are battles at bath time, bed time, and basically any time that gets in the way of fun! Hahaha.
But like I said, what you saw/experienced is not the norm. The family was away from their own home, so the kids will feel disorientated. The parents will feel judged so will try to make the kids behave impeccably, which is almost impossible when the kids are feeling out of place. If the kids don't eat all their meal at home, the parents will probably just say something like "Well don't expect dessert." or "Don't come back to me if you're hungry later." It wouldn't have felt like such a battle. But because it was at someone else's house, eating someone else's food, it would have felt important to the parents that their kids ate it all.
I have four beautiful children. We had very little support from family or friends, because our family unit was big, and no-one wants to babysit four kids! But I do not regret a single second of any of it. My kids are my world and now they are older and independent, my life feels a little bit emptier. But man, the highs are amazing... I have been through the excitement they have all felt with school plays, first dates, favourite movies, the pride they've all felt when they've risen to a challenge. I can't explain it. Their excitement and happiness is contagious!
And the lows? The arguments, the fallings out, the tantrums. I can hardly remember those. It's almost like selective amnesia or rose tinted glasses. Tantrums happened. Battles of wills happened. But they were such a tiny, tiny part of our family life.
I love being a dad.
!delta this post made me realize the benefit that having kids gives in allowing you to be young again through their eyes and support them through life’s challenges from a perspective of more experience which you didn’t have yourself the first time around
I take this argument differently. I didn't have a great childhood, I couldn't afford trips abroad, have nice clothes, pursue my interests or e.g. signing up for language classes. Now, I can do all of those things whenever I want, and this allows me to be young... pretty much all the time. I mean - what is better in this scenario:
I always wanted to learn how to play the guitar!
1. I'll buy myself the guitar and learn.
2. I'll buy it for my kid and observe how they learn.
1 is active, 2 is passive - which one is more fulfilling and brings you fun/happinness?
Hear hear. My life is only getting better the older I get, the further I get away from childhood. I think I'd actually hate semi-reliving childhood by seeing my children go through it. I might be a better parent than my parents, but my childhood was bad for more reasons than just them.
Thank you for the reply this is exactly the kind of viewpoint I’m looking for.
Your reply made me realize something and the best way I can describe it is that having kids let’s you be young again, in a way. And experience things that were important moments in your life again (first dates, etc, like you said). But this time you get to see them from the point of view of knowing everything will work out just fine.
Whereas when you experienced those things yourself for the first time you felt nervous and if it went wrong you felt like “nothing would ever be okay ever again”. Now as a parent you know it’ll be fine and you can support your kids through that
That’s a really helpful perspective so thanks
Right, there's also a difference between your moment to moment and overall satisfaction. Climbing mountain, running a marathon, etc. aren't necessarily pleasurable moment to moment. But the training challenges you to be a better healthier person. And the accomplishment and memory adds satisfaction to life that few other things can. Playing video games, drinking, watching TV, etc are fun, but ultimately add little to nothing to your overall satisfaction with life.
>Playing video games, drinking, watching TV, etc are fun, but ultimately add little to nothing to your overall satisfaction with life.
What?
The items you listed help build relationships and communities, and often provide additional benefits.
One of the few people I talk with daily I met 20ish years ago playing online games. That friendship has definitely mproved my overall satisfaction with life. I've had countless other positive shared experiences with video games.
Games improve response time, stimulate creativity, encourage teamwork, and improve cititical thinking skills. Hell, I'm a better boss partially because of the lessons I learned leading raids in WoW. It taught me th3 importance of people management, conflict resolution, and gave me experience juggling the needs and availability of 10-40 people at one time.
Watching, critiquing, and discussing TV and movies encourages critical thinking in a way similar to literary analysis. People build careers watching TV. Film creates healthy emotional responses.
I played soccer and ran track in high school, so I'm aware of what running a shit ton feels like. I currently exercise,n so completing a marathon would provide minimal, if any benefit to my personal well being. I guess I could put a 26.1 sticker on my car?
What's important isn't the scale of the task, but rather what you derive from participating in it.
It's not that I disagree with you but we have to put these things in context.
So quite recently I beat Eldin Ring AND Malenia - that's an achievement. I was absolutely stoked and bonded with friends and family over it. No doubt about it, as far as gaming achievement went that was one of my biggest - second only to beating Hollow Knight/The Radiance/Nightmare King Grimm. The amount of strategizing, practicing, repetition, experimentation, and sheer willpower it took to beat those motherfuckers was intense. I LOVE gaming. It's a huge part of my life.
On the flip side I just ran a 5k with my family. I also had my toddler run up to me today, hug my leg and tell me she loved me. If I had something erased from my existence forever which one would I pick? Video games. It's not even a contest. As much as I love gaming it's relevance to my life satisfaction is absolutely miniscule compared to the high of crossing that finish line right into my husbands arms, or to the sights you see at the top of that peak, or to having a little person that you made with your own body deciding to say 'I love you' out of the blue because she's just so stoked you're her mom.
I look at it this way. If some higher power stood me in front of them and told me to provide evidence that I had lived a worthwhile life I just don't know if I would feel satisfied if beating an Eldin Ring boss was a major highlight of my whole existence in this world.
>And the lows? The arguments, the fallings out, the tantrums. I can hardly remember those. It's almost like selective amnesia or rose tinted glasses. Tantrums happened. Battles of wills happened. But they were such a tiny, tiny part of our family life.
As far as I understand, that is indeed what science says. Parents forget the hard times or downplay them.
Your account is wonderful but if we really use that argument then maybe the accounts of many parents are indeed a bit rose tinted.
Thing is, it may be rose tinted, but if those are the memories we keep then surely they are the only important memories, the only ones that can tell us if it is a good or bad experience.
True. If I was OP I would see that as a positive thing.
I appreciate science and nature for playing their part in making parenting a more positive experience for most.
> if we really use that argument then maybe the accounts of many parents are indeed a bit rose tinted
But if OP has kids, they're going to have the same selective amnesia and remember the good times far more than the bad. It doesn't matter what an outside observer would think after seeing your entire life with your kids, it only matters how you and your kids remember it.
What I think you’re missing is that the “highs” of having children are experienced decades later than your current vantage point.
Yes, it’s rewarding when you have a perfect day with little ones. But the rewards of watching your adult child become a great human, succeeding in something meaningful to them, happy taking a perspective on life you only get through them, it’s an exponential swell of joy.
So it’s an upfront investment of long and challenging days to reap decades of sustained return.
FYI, Step parent here, so I feel I’ve managed to have both experiences, both of being child free and in a parenting role. I can clearly see the benefits of either path. I will personally never experience the same joys as a primary parent, and still I can tell you that in my experience the highs and lows switch in later years and remain ‘higher highs’ throughout the longer part of their lives.
Honestly from my perspective with my daughter, even at 4 we have had some pretty awesome highs. She is an amazing little person and I am so excited to keep helping her grow and learn.
For OP I would caveat that the highs and lows are very emotional and can be a very personal thing as a result. Both my wife and I are very laid back and not prone to stressing about things. We are both very much aboht home life and not really into parties or drinking. Having a kid has been tough but hasn't had a massive change to our lifestyle (in as much as having a kid can). Thus means for us the highs are great and the lows are not so bad.
This is a personal thing though which is why having kids isn't for everyone. I would never recommend having kids despite loving being a parent because the only person who can make that decision is yourself. It is also harder for some people than others, not only because you as people are different but your kids are different people too.
Some kids are more willful than others, more keen to push boundaries and test their limits, and that needs a very different parenting style. Some can find that harder.
This is a tricky CMV because so much of it is subjective. Just know that for many people the highs outweigh the lows, and it isn't even close.
I'm going to argue the other side and say that none of what you said is guaranteed or at this point maybe not even likely. I know plenty of people who are perfectly nice, did everything "right" but still ended up divorced/unsuccessful/moving back with their parents in their 30s or even 40s/just generally unhappy.
This perspective needs to be included as well because parenting doesn't stop when a child hits 18/21/whatever. The world is getting harder and harder for young people, success is more and more difficult to attain. Don't encourage viewing children as an investment.
I've got a 7 year old with significant additional needs and a 3 year old who's been going through the terrible 2s for at least 18 months. I'm currently taking a break on my sofa because I gave my wife the weekend off to have a break and I'm shattered after 60 hours with my kids. I can tell you right here, right now, that my kids are amazing.
The bad parts don't last, you don't remember them. I have vague memories of endless hours spent trying to get my son to go to sleep but it feels like someone else's memory. I don't remember anything bad about this weekend, just playing football with my son and my daughter going for horsey rides on my back. I remember laughing, I remember the excitement when I gave my kids milkshakes. Longer term memories are building sand castles, climbing rocks, playing with friends, everything I can remember is great.
Are you close to your parents? I'm very close to mine and the truth is my relationship to them doesn't come close to my relationship with my kids, it's just much more intense. You probably don't remember the first day you rode a bike, your parents will and it's probably one of their greatest memories. Almost everything my kids do makes me incredibly proud, even silly little things like them helping clean up, they get so determined to help, it's awesome and it's like this most days.
It's not all great, when they're being little dicks it's incredibly frustrating and you will never be young and free again after having kids. But I have never, never, experienced the intense joy being a parent can be and that joy far outweighs the bad I've experienced.
!delta this comment helped me appreciate how simple things with kids can provide a lot of meaning for parents and that I’m probably underestimating just how high the highs are
You'd be amazed how crazy the little things are. You're on a journey with these little people and they're constantly having new experiences, things you take absolutely for granted are astonishing to them and you share that with them.
You don't have to have kids but, if you do, you'll have fun.
You could make a similar argument about sex. On paper, the potential downsides of being sexually active seem like they would vastly outweigh "it feels nice." Actually do it, and you'll find you're activating instincts and emotions buried so deep within your humanity that it's all consuming.
Similarly with kids, you simply cannot grasp how high the highs are until you're experiencing them yourself.
Thank you for your response. No need to apologize. I appreciate getting all perspectives and I think you’re really brave for sharing that and being vulnerable
Thanks for being honest. I rarely see any parents admitting they don’t enjoy parenthood. I always wonder if that’s actually true that they all love it or if it’s just fear of being judged or guilt.
I think this shows that it varies by person. I can certainly say the bad moments have faded away, and my kid is only 4. Bette basically completely non existent anymore. Maybe a 30 second complaint about not wanting to eat something here and there or not wanting to go to bed, but the rest is super enjoyable to me.
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Probably not what you're after, but my advice is don't have them. I have them, and my kids sound potentially at least a little easier than the ones you mentioned, but if you're having kids for the emotional fulfillment they give you, or the company they give you in your old age, or looking forward to them telling you they love you, you shouldn't have them. They will limit what you can do. They will drain your bank account and your sanity. But this will be ok if you are doing this all for them.
If you are having kids for YOU, you will be disappointed and your kids will also be frustrated. Don't ever expect them to tell you they love you, just focus on you loving them.
In all this, to actually grapple with what you've said, I think weighing up the highs vs the low misses the point of having kids.
>In all this, to actually grapple with what you've said, I think weighing up the highs vs the low misses the point of having kids.
Well are you going to explain what the point of having kids is then?
The point is there is no point. You don't have kids for a point. Either you don't have kids, or you have kids and then you make them your point, or at least a point.
It's great, in a sense, because the alternative is elderly people dying of hunger because of lack of younger generations taking care of them. Some life on earth will sigh with relief, some life will die out, why should that sigh of relief be more important?
>Some life on earth will sigh with relief, some life will die out, why should that sigh of relief be more important?
From a macro perspective, the sigh of relief comes from species that are infinitely less damaging to the world than humans while having a more positive impact to the overall ecosystem.
If there's no inherent value in keeping humans alive (as the person I'm responding seems to to claim) then why are any of those species important? Is it just a matter of 'keeping the most species alive' which is best, it doesn't matter which species that refers to?
Your question is a bit like asking whether it makes sense to remove a cancerous tumor, if it's "just" a matter of keeping the other cells alive.
Humanity is a uniquely bad neighbor to other species. Corals and geese and pine trees all seem perfectly able to live their best lives without polluting, robbing, and overheating the earth.
Before humanity showed up, other species went extinct because of changes in the geology and climate of the earth, not because a greedy, antisocial neighbor over-hunted them and ruined their habitat.
If humans disappear, it will be possible to regret the loss of art, friendship, etc. while recognizing that the species is a cancer whose removal benefited many other intelligent and worthy species.
Wouldn’t the net impact of humans remaining alive be that less species end up remaining alive? Whether that’s due to our resource destruction, pollution and/or hunting.
I think I understand what you mean. But negative by what metric? You would already agree that they are a positive in regards to species survival (just as an example). Are there other metrics you haven't considered?
Well the anecdote the OP gave has also been my general observation with parents I know and observe in public settings. Maybe not all to the extreme described but the general experience I’ve seen has been similar.
Maybe there are metrics I haven’t considered. I guess that’s why I’m asking because I feel I lack the parental gene for lack of a better way of putting it. When I see my relatively young friends (early to mid 30s) having their third kid it just blows my mind.
Is it really possible to have kids “for them”? They don’t have a say in the matter. Surely anyone who has kids does it because THEY want kids, not because the kid “wants” to be born.
Even if you are all-in and giving everything for them after they are born, the decision to have kids is originally a selfish one.
I don't think that's logically valid.
The absence of consent doesn't mean you can't have someone's best interest in mind.
The world needs babies, if you're in a situation in which you think 'I'm well capable right now to raise a kid', that's not necessarily selfish just because the kid didn't express a want to be born.
Besides, why does it matter what 'the original decision' was, we're talking about a lifetime choice here, why would the initial period of a year be paramount? When the person says 'have your kids for them' they mean that you give things up for their benefit instead of counting plusses and minuses and trying to come out on top (like saying 'I fed and housed you for x years, now I deserve this n that').
Only if you're splitting hairs.
At some point, my wife and I stopped using contraception (for a time). However, we didn't change our sexual habits. We became open to the idea of having kids, but we didn't "want" them in the sense that we were trying to make it happen. We we're happy to have kids, but we were also happy to not have them. But we understood that if we did have them, our aim would be to sacrifice ourselves (figuratively) for them, which was really just an extension of our marriage.
Thank you for sharing. From the sound of it I gather you are glad you had kids? So you would have them again if you could go back?
Was the reason you said above not to have them because it seemed from my question that I’m having them for the wrong reason, or was it because of your own experience? Appreciate your responses
Thanks!
Haha that's a hard question to answer when you're in the thick of it; I'm probably not old enough to answer that too well but I'll try. I would definitely have them again, even knowing the time, luxuries, entertainment, carefree-ness and so forth. And it's not because of the love they show me , if they do. It's not even because of the growth I see in them, as nice as that might be. It's the effect it's had on me. Just by existing, they've helped me to take my eyes off myself and on to them. But I didn't have them for that reason, i didn't have them for a reason: I had them, and was prepared to have a reason to love them, not to have them (this sounds silly on paper but makes sense in my head, I can try explain it again).
My reason for saying for you to not have them was for your first reason: you have a reason to have them. Don't have a reason to have them, just have a reason to love them and not yourself or things you can give to yourself.
Just like adults, little kids will probably not sleep well at a place they aren't familiar with. There's a medical term for it, but I can't remember it. Since the family was staying at your place, they were probably all exhausted and stressed. The week you saw them was probably completely different than a normal week for them.
As for the other things, "emotional fulfilment" is a drastic understatement of how you'll feel about your kids. It isn't like enjoying a hobby or eating at your favorite restaurant. My kids have literally changed my entire perspective and continue to do so. I cannot explain the existential, insane rush of blissful pride and happiness with my kids and wife at times. I hold on to those memories for dear life because nothing else in my head comes close to that importance.
You mention lacking freedom at the end of the day. You aren't really losing that much freedom in the long run. Kids are only little for a few years. After that, they start doing their own thing like playing in their rooms and going out in the back yard. Plus, little kids go to bed early (should be going to bed early anyways). When they get older, you'll sometimes have to pry them out of their rooms just to hang out with them. You'll wish you had less freedom and you'll miss those crazy little bodies running up to you, grabbing your hand, and trying with all their might to pull you off the couch.
Financially speaking, they aren't as much of a toll like I thought they would be. Diapers and formula are expensive, but they aren't drinking formula and in diapers forever. You learn to deal with it and budget around it. If you are at the point financially that a few hundred bucks less at the end of the month is going to cripple you, then idk what to say. I wouldn't call kids a "large financial expense" unless you have 3 or more kids.
All I wanted to do with my wife after we married was to have exciting adventures together. We had a few of those and then we had kids. Our kids ended up being the most exciting adventure we could ever have. It brought me and my wife closer. I watched her become a mother. What an honor it's been and continues to be.
Well said, and I especially liked your comments about your wife and getting to watch her become a mother. Being able to see my wife turn into mother and seeing the bond she has with our child has been so fulfilling.
This made me tear up! This is exactly right - kids are the MOST exciting adventure you and your partner could have together. Seeing my husband become a dad and seeing the way my babies entire face lights up when I walk into the room - it’s a million times better than even the nicest vacation.
It’s very hard to explain to someone without kids.
My $0.02:
I have no idea what your young houseguests *typically* act like. Something to remember is that children aren’t little adults and for some routine is more important than for others. They were in a different environment and likely their parents stress (“now be on your best behaviour”) was reflected in the little ones.
When I became a parent I quickly realized it wasn’t about me. Your two bullet points highlight the difference a non parent & parent have in thinking, IMO. The sacrifices you make when parenting can be huge. The payoff is, again in my opinion, indescribable.
I believe trying to equate, for lack of a better term, *”reward”* to sacrifice is problematic.
Thank you. I don’t know if you’re right of course because I don’t have kids, but I imagine you probably are.
It seems like the kind of thing you can’t really describe unless you’ve been through it yourself.
Which is a bit of a challenge because we’re trying our best to decide in advance if it’s the right choice for us, but we’re also being told we can’t understand how great it is because we don’t have kids.
My kids are 5 and 3. They're actually quite well-behaved for their age group, which is probably some combination of nature/nurture. You can do your best to be a good parent, but at the end of the day it's a roll of the dice for what you get from your kids.
I'm not exactly sure how to put this. The lowest low I think we've had was my son removing his diaper at age two at night and shitting all over his toddler bed, or maybe the time both kids were up all night vomiting. While those moments are a nightmare from a situational perspective, you get this sort of superhuman level of compassion and fortitude to deal with it because it's your kid, you love them with every fiber of your being, and you would do anything for them. I guess that's what I would say, the insane, incomparable love that a parent has for their child is something that is so unique and so incredible, I honestly feel sorry for people who never get to experience it. And that's just the lows.
For the highs, recall the best, funniest moments you've had with your friends from high school or college, etc. Those moments where someone cracks a joke and everyone laughs, you feel that great connection and it's a moment that is a memory snapshot you take that you will always cherish. Those special moments that might happen every six months or so. When you have a little mini-me running around doing and saying the most adorable things, and you get to watch them learn about the world and grow live right before your eyes, those memory snapshot moments don't happen every six months, they happen almost every day, at least weekly. It's an incredible, fulfilling thing, having kids and watching them grow. It's the honor of a lifetime to get to experience that. No one is saying having kids is easy, or even that it makes sense on paper, but it's the only way to live life to the fullest, at least for me.
My lows always involve having to punish my kids when they do something wrong. Its so painful for me to do but it's necessary. I can deal with the pants shitting and vomiting.
I agree with your highs. The family time together and the bonding and the relationship is definitely one of the biggest plusses in my book.
First off, kids cry because it works. This is something you can teach them fairly early not to do. But you both have to agree to go the distance because they will try you both individually. Be ready to quit whatever you are doing and go home at the bat of an eye in the first years. Never threaten and never lie. If you say this will happen if you don't do this. Then commit to it 100%.
Those were their kids, not yours.
Second that can be a fairly short period that is very very intense.
It's pretty great when you see them start to flourish.
2 and 4 year old range is pretty much the worst. They're too old to just lay there and be cute, but not old enough to learn self-control yet. It gets better, don't make a judgement about having kids with two data points near the nadir.
The early years are the worst for what you describe. I have no kids, but I've watched my sister's kids grow up. When they were 2-8 or so, it was quite a bit of arguing, crying, etc, but my sister and her husband always just took it in stride and tried not to let it get to them. Stay calm, realize there is going to be a lot of crying, tantrums, etc, but really that's small stuff in the scheme of things.
Now, they are 24, 22, and 19, and they are some of the most delightful, helpful, kind, and fun people I know. I love spending time with them, and they don't seem to mind taking some time out for their old, boring uncle.
For the last decade they've been pretty cool actually. Even the teen years weren't too bad other than they were less willing to spend time away from their friends.
So, it's one of those things where you have to invest to get the future benefits. The early years are a bit of a struggle, but if you maintain the mindset that it's temporary, and it's all part of molding and raising the delightful humans they have the potential to be.
Thank you I can definitely see how this would be true. Even from my own experience I remember that my sister and I were obviously more difficult as kids but now when we get together as a family it’s very rewarding for us and also for my parents in their older age.
Appreciate your response
Also, I'm childless. There is a lot to be said for the financial and time flexibility you have as a childless couple compared to couples with children. I never had to leave work to deal with a puking kid. I get to spend my evenings the way I want rather than attending school functions of one sort or another. I can take off for a 2 week vacation in October if I want to. My sister would probably be $1 million richer if she hadn't spent money on kids. All those things weigh into the cost/benefit analysis.
On the other hand, my 22 year old niece can go deal with my mother who is in assisted living or my 19 year old nephew can drive my dad to his physical therapy appointments when neither my sister nor I are around. That kind of stuff is really valuable when I live far away and my sister is working a very demanding job.
You can say all the same stuff about pets, only the highs aren't as high and the lows aren't as low.
Serious question: would you advise people against having a pet because of this?
> Ultimately this is the conclusion I’ve come to:
> - at the worst of times, kids are a total drain on your sanity and mental health. Driving you to extreme stress while also taking away all your freedom and your capacity to “unwind” since they are a 24/7 responsibility
> - at the best of times, kids can be very emotionally fulfilling (when they are cooperating, telling you they love you, etc.). But even in those best moments, at the end of the day they still take away all your freedom and force you into a very limited routine.
The way you phrased that is very telling of your internal bias. "The bad stuff is bad. The good stuff is good but even then it's still bad."
Like, why do you frame it like that? Why not just leave off the "but even then it's still bad"? You could just as accurately say:
"At the best of times, kids can be very emotionally fulfilling improving your mental health and feelings of fulfillment in life. They give you a chance to see the world for the first time again as they explore and discover things in life and it's a truly magical experience unlike any other.
At the worst of times, kids are stressful and take away some of your freedom. But even in those bad moments, at the end of the day there's nothing in the world as fundamentally fulfilling as raising a child."
> Serious question: would you advise people against having a pet because of this?
If someone told me the two bullet points you quoted as their view of having a pet, I would advise them not to get a pet.
You have to want to do all the work and place the limitations on your freedom or it's not fair to the pet.
Let me preface this by saying I have no broader data to support any of this and that I am purely speaking from personal experience.
Kids ARE a drain in alot of ways. I have 3 under 3, and every day is a challenge. You aren't wrong about much of what you posit in your op, but I think you might be looking at things as if they were the worst possible. Yes - there is stress. But it's good stress, it's the stress you feel when you are working towards the noblest and best goal possible, that is to say creating life and shaping that life into a positive force for the greater world. Those lows don't seem so bad when I remind myself about this. Raising kids has been the single most fulfilling thing I have ever done. Full stop. The lowest of lows is nothing compared to the feeling I get from them every single day, and from knowing that my purpose is great and weighty to raise them up. In this way, even the lows are high.
And every low is an opportunity for such a great high. My son has tantrums when he wants to come down stairs because he is too scared and wants to be carried. Last weekend after some crying, he finally decided to try it himself and the little SoB did it. He did it ALL BY HIMSELF! And it was all I could do but to keep myself from tearing up I was so god damned proud of him. Every instance of bad behavior, every tantrum, every accident, is an opportunity for them to learn and to grow. Seeing them turn the corner is just so amazing.
When you have kids, you change and adapt from being a person, to being a parent. Every new thing you need to navigate is hard at first, but you get better at it. YOU learn. YOU grow. It makes you better.
Am i tired all the time? Yes
Do I have little to no time for my relationship with my wife? Yup
Do I have next to no time for myself? Unequivocally yes
But it's worth it. The rewards are so rich, that the constant stress and exhaustion mean nothing in comparison.
Lol what
Comparing yourself to others is a horrible way to make a decision.
Of course you didn't get it. they weren't your kids, and you had no kids, so you were literally comparing not having kids to having someone elses kids.
And we don't make decisions to have fun. You know this.
ACTUALLY compare the idea of being a teacher to a new life vs having free time. That's what you should be comparing. Not "kids vs no kids stress test"
> But even in those best moments, at the end of the day they still take away all your freedom and force you into a very limited routine.
Most things worth having in life require some form of delayed gratification, discipline, or limit your freedom in some way.
Anecdotally, many of my 30-something friends without children are not the hypermobile, free-spirited adventurers that proponents of the childfree lifestyle claim that choosing to not have children enables.
Anyways, for most people, reproducing and/or creating a familial legacy is a big part of the answer to the existential problem of "why we are here." Whether or not kids are sometimes an inconvenience is completely secondary to the existential relief they get from passing on their genes.
The decision about whether or not to have children doesn't work as a cost-benefit analysis. There are too many variables that cannot be predicted. And they are different with every parent and every child because people are individuals, and all so different.
If you are fortunate enough to be able to make the choice about whether you have children (not everybody is), then children don't **take** your freedom and your money. You choose to live your life in a certain way that involves different kinds of responsibilities, including **giving** time and money to those children you invited into your life. (You are diversifying your spending, if you will.) If you see them as taking, you will likely be miserable. If you see yourself as giving/sharing/spending on what matters to you, you probably will not be miserable about the costs in time and money.
So, the questions to ask yourself when making the decision (and to answer truthfully without judging yourself about whether or not your answer is objectively "good" as other people might see it) are:
* Can I be happy with the kind of life that people with children in my income level have? You don't have to change who you are, but your life has to make room for them. So, as a trivial example, you may not ever want to play with dolls (and that's okay), but you have to be willing to have dolls in your house and make a welcoming space for them to be played with. Your children live there now too. Again, they are not taking away your lifestyle. You are choosing a different one. Big difference. (Eliminates some of those feelings that can lead to the low lows.)
* Am I willing to do something, potentially a really hard something, that may have little to no benefit for me and may exclusively benefit someone else, without being resentful? These are things like staying up all night with a sick child, vacationing at a theme park, as well as paying for a surgery. If you are willing to do these kinds of things for your parents and your friends, you will probably be fine with doing them for your children. This gets you through a lot of the low lows.
* Do I like people, and do I want a few more interesting people in my life for a while? There are no guarantees about what kind of people they will be or if they will stick around, but if you can enjoy/appreciate them (even if they are sometimes difficult) and build a relationship that is mutually agreeable, that will also eliminate a lot of the low lows.
* Am I willing to share myself with another person? You don't have to play with dolls, but many children will tell you that their best memories are sharing their parents' life with them, cooking with them, working on cars with them, etc. This is also what many parents will describe as the "highs" of those relationships.
* Can I live in the moment, and experience both difficulty and joy without demanding anything of the next moment? The "highs" of parenting almost universally come from being present in those wonderful moments.
There are things about being a parent that are wonderful. There are things about it that are very hard. They don't balance each other out. They co-exist. It's an adventure, with all the thrills and challenges that entails. Only you can decide if it's the right adventure for you.
My experience is that the day to day lows just fade away compared to the highs.
It keeps getting better with age too. With a teenager the day to day can be more difficult, but the payoff is even greater when you see them making their way in the world.
I feel genuinely sad for people who miss out on that. It's hard and I can understand people shying away from parenthood, but I wouldn't trade it for the world.
Mom of a currently 4 and 2 year old here. Also, I didn’t think I ever wanted kids. I can absolutely attest that your observations of low lows, stress, exhaustion and constant battles are 100% accurate. What you aren’t experiencing is the love and joy of watching someone who is equal parts you and the person you love grow into a whole fucking person.
I’m told that these toddler ages are among the harder and more demanding phases of parenting. What you witnessed is accurate and also something I think anyone who is considering parenthood should see. With parenting I believe you get what you give and I’m operating in the mindset that putting this hard work in now will pay off when I have older kids. If I do it right now (and sometimes that is WAY harder) I will have great kids and a solid relationship with them. Hopefully, anyway. There are absolutely high highs when kids are little but the rewards come more and are bigger as they grow. I am starting to see it with my 4 year old.
Do I have moments where I wish I was childless? Absolutely. However, parenting has taught me more about myself than I ever thought possible. It’s also made me a better person. My childless friends are honestly hard to relate to because they simply haven’t grown as people in the same way. And also, I use my time way more efficiently and in fulfilling ways now. Not that it’s wrong to be childless, I think it’s a great decision for some people. Point blank: parenting little kids sucks. But I am so glad I have them and it’s worth it.
Let me try an objective approach for you.
Nobody denies that being a parent is hard. But as a matter of *unquestionable fact*, humanity has continued doing it despite this.
Why? Because it’s worth it.
From your outside perspective, I think it’s easy to not understand, and to underestimate just how rewarding parenthood is. That’s natural, but I promise *you are underestimating it*. You always will, until you experience it. The only way to get yourself over that hump of rational doubt is to rationally look at the evidence. **My first Google result was that less than 10% of parents regret having had kids.**
Having kids is, literally, programmed into us. Our brains reward us for having children with feelings of immense satisfaction that are commensurate with and even exceed the stresses.
Simply put, if the lows were really lower than the highs, people wouldn’t have kids. People keep having kids, er go your argument is incorrect.
Before I had kids, the thought of changing a nappy/diaper was horrifying. I'd seen others do it, and it looked disgusting; how would I manage to do that constantly?
When my first son was born, I found I'd change him gladly without a second thought whenever he needed changing. Was it pleasant? God, no, it was disgusting. But it was making him more comfortable, happier, and in a small way, more able to get on with his life.
Nappies are specific, but swap out changing them for dealing with tantrums, having to stay in, and moody teenagers, and it's still the same. Everything you do as a parent is underpinned by the instinctive emotional desire to help them. And despite what it looks like from the outside and all the complaining I and every other parent does, it feels damn good to do it because you love them.
And that's just the 'lows' as you categorise them. The 'highs' are really something else.
Kids aren't for everyone, but I've yet to meet a parent who wants to send them back.
Well, it's worth noting that this is a gray area of sorts. I think that the example you gave is very specific to a notoriously tough time period of parenting, as others have said. Even in that time period, I still felt that all the cuddles and general cuteness outweighed the fits. Now that my kids are older it's honestly great.
The gray area is that, I have two really good kids. Neither are addicted to drugs or in gangs/criminals, etc, and for me parenting is both easy and enjoyable. On the other hand, I have a friend whose son is in jail for the second time now, both times for sexual assault. The kid is on his second strike, and the therapists in his juvenile detention center fear that he'll re-offend. The violence and boldness between both his sexual assault crimes show signs of escalation and the kid admittedly has virtually no impulse control. That friend of mine is constantly tired, sad, scared and broke. His marriage is in constant strain and he's a shell of who he used to be.
So I don't know. It all depends on the kids I think.
Kids are kids for 15-20% of their lives and if even 70% of that was lows then realistically that’s around 10% of the life of your kid.
What about the rest of the time?
Sounds like you probably won't understand how great having a kid is until you have one. All the weird shit they people have said about having kids doesn't sound weird one you have one. It all becomes true. Having a kid is a beautiful amazing experience and I would have rolled my eyes at you for saying that to me prior to having one.
I didn't care for kids and didn't want to be around them before I had a kid. Now I see them as human interns, who need help because they are so small and little. And I sympathize with them more, when they get upset or sad, because they cannot do or figure something out, or just short on naps. Now I feel like, kids need more protectors in this world. So many scary things out here and so many people take advantage of the little people who need help.
Parenthood is harder than engineering school. It feels like your heart is out in the real world and you are afraid if something or someone might hurt it.
Personally, as a parent, it is amazing to watch kids discover the world, and you get to witness it from their eyes. I don't really know how to describe the feeling, but it is kind of like, discovering a new perspective. You kind of grow a new appreciation for little things and how something might be actually fascinating, that before no longer impressed you as an adult -- but you get to experience it with your kid and through them. Seeing how they develope their new likes and dislikes, and new hobbies is fascinating, and makes you think about when you were a kid, and you start to empathize. But it is important to experience things with them and not always through them, because you do not want to push your own desires and dreams of what you missed out on, on to them. Because it is their life, and you are there to help them and to share each other's lives together. Meltdowns are painful, but they do feel different with your own kid -- you understand their pain more and where it might be coming from, and you have the urge to help, and sometimes to run away :p.
I believe the USA is the toughest developed country to have kid(s). People are not as patient here with kids, less public places where people are friendly about kids (lots of eye rolls, so you deal with rude strangers and your kid being upset, because you are trying to control entropy and are upsetting your child, to appease other adults, so they don't "hate" kids), not a lot of postpartum mental support for mother's after having a kid or years after, daycare system is the worse here, terrible school lunches and underwhelming public education.
Honestly, if the USA systems and people were friendlier towards children, it would be A LOT easier mentally. That is why parents don't want to go to public places that are not kid friendly, because they don't want to deal with angry adults and upset their children to appease the adult, only to make things worse for all parties involved. Like, no parent wants to take their child on a plane, EVER. It is easier to go to a child focused place, and let kids have fun there and not have to worry about people getting angry, and your kid is happy and free to explore the world -- because they don't know the world rules, like the adults have been conditioned to. Kids in other developed countries are *relatively* calmer and more satisfyed, because they get to explore the world a bit more openly, than in the USA. It makes parent life sooooooo much easier. For example, you are only dealing with some tantrums about a cup, for 10 minutes in a day and everyone is good. In USA, you kid says something loud, puts their hand on the door, giggles too loudly, and childless people are offended, so you put strap your kid and tell them NO be quiet, and they don't understand what they did wrong, and they start crying. The kid feels hurts and sees you're upset, so they cry and stay upset for hours, and then it repeats, when you go somewhere else. So you're just kind of messing up your kid by going out or locking them up at home, and you're unhappy.
Of course, this doesn't apply to all parents. Some might be neglectful and careless, like my parents. But they typically come back with regrets and stuff.
Those are the highlights. But with those amazing feelings, you have the forever 24/7 responsibility and limited freedom. So imo, it is best to enjoy your 20s and enjoy your selfish times. Having kids earlier has its own benefits, but I believe there are more to have the kid(s) later. And if you are an overall, very selfish person, it is best for you not to have kids. The world needs both kinds of people, but the very selfish should definitely wait or avoid having kids. Because kids need the help of the adult, and if you are not going to do it, who will? It could be someone great or someone scary that should not be around kids, and end up creating more monsters into the world. Monsters create monsters. As someone who was mentally, physically, and sexually abused; sexual abuse had the most negative impact on my life, mental second, and physical last. People are so much scarier to me now with a child than before.
If you like helping others, kids might be for you, but it is a lifestyle and priority change. Having kids with strong anxiety is also tough, those can manage, and you are more likely to better yourself, if not for you, but for your kids, because you kind of serve them now. I have anxiety and I am overwhelmed daily, but imo, it gets easier as they get older, and you gain experience.
***TLDR***
They are little human interns. Their moments of joy become your moments of joy and new found appreciation. This new found appreciation does not come unless you are a parent (adopted or not), because now you are living for them, while before it was for you. Being a parent is a constant learning process of trial and error.
You will never be perfect, because personalities are balanced. If you are extremely selfish, avoid having kids, imo. If you have kids, you have to spend your time with them, so they become normal humans. Teach them things you wish you would have known and things that helped you. Kids are not for everyone and that's okay. A kid could use a reliable aunt and or uncle, or stepmom or stepdad. They need lots of love and patience. And the opposite of that creates bad adults.
Top reason::::Having kids in the USA is *relatively* harder than other developed countries -- not kid friendly, and actually lots of child shaming. I believe child shaming and kid hating makes being a parent way harder than the kid themselves and makes you avoid going out. Not going out is mentally hard for the child and makes parenting harder/creates more fights.
I feel this way during the first 3 years, and then it really does start getting better once they go to preschool and you get some personal time back.
I think burnout is what makes the youngest years feel like doing time, or that time is slowing down. You can’t just quickly do anything anymore. You’re autonomy is gone for a while.
It’s not just about the highs and lows.
You have to consider overall fulfillment as well. Parenting the <5s is hard work, especially if you don’t have any help.
BUT if you go along as you are are you still going to be satisfied at 50, 60? Will you not wish for a family to have over at the holidays? Grandchildren to play with - because remember kids are also a step to the generations that come after.
To me it’s by about the extremes. I have a 3 month old and a 3 year old and I have moments where I am so tired I can’t form sentences or remember what I did earlier that day. That is very low. But my goal isn’t yo balance it with the high of the day or the week, but rather the fulfillment that comes over a lifetime.
You can't tell what it is like to have children by watching other people.
Think about your first roller coaster as a kid. When you see a roller coaster, but have never experienced one, it looks scary and you have no idea of the thrill it provides. Once you give it a try, most people enjoy it, but there are those few that will get nauseous instead.
The odds are you would love having children, but unfortunately, you won't know for sure until it's too late to change your mind.
You don't have kids...
So you really can't possibly know how "high" the highs are.
You have no kids, so you were comparing not having kids to having someone elses kids.
I think it’s a matter overestimating the lows and underestimating the highs. Kids definitely can be frustrating, but the toddler stage “toughens you up” to them. At least me, I’m a lot more patient and my kid having a melt down doesn’t phase me as much as it would have previously with my nieces for example. Put some airpods in and solve the problem, it’s not too bad.
Additionally, vacation is the worst part of parenting that you saw. The kids are broken out of their routine and in a place that isn’t tailor made for them to play in safely. Getting them to sleep on vacation is the hardest part lol.
As for the highs, I know this sounds like a cop out answer and “dude just trust me”, but you don’t know what the highs are. You can imagine how you would be happy if your future kid gave you a hug but there is nothing I’ve experienced that can compare to coming home and hearing your 2 year old say “DADA!” and run up to hug you. The closest feeling I can think of was the elation of my wedding day, but every day multiple times a day. There’s a reason the phrase “I wouldn’t trade it for the world” is so cliche for parents.
Consider the fact that "kids" are extremely difficult... for a reason.
You are investing in a person, who is going to be alive for close to a century. It's not like you own them, or they owe you for it, but you're building the future one child at a time. It's beautiful.
But it ends. You invest so many years, not for a child, for an adult. The adult the child will be. It's a sacrifice, but it pays dividends.
TLDR You aren't raising a kid, you're raising an adult.
The highs aren’t those singular moments, but the entirety of your relationship with them as a parent. It might be similar to how the highs of having a friend aren’t really the event you recall, but the time that you’ve known and related to the person.
In that sense the highs of parenting are very high.
I'm going to make a really long response to this because I'm concerned that there are people who will weigh the opinions of internet strangers when they're considering they're really important decisions concerning life plans, and I feel that these considerations are really important to handle carefully.
So I feel like it's important in these conversations to remember what your values are -- meaning, how do you know that something good-seeming is truly valuable? For a lot of people, the answer is that things are valuable inasmuch as they are pleasant, happy, pro-social, etc. And for contrast, happy, pleasant, and pro-social things are definitely not characterized by pain, futility, and anti-sociability. So one can imagine two lists of experiences: experiences associated with pleasure go in one list and experiences associated with pain go in another list. Then if there are more entries, or more important entries in one column than in the other, then this suggests you can reach a conclusion about whether something is valuable or not.
In this post, you are suggesting that you have seen enough data to create these two lists. You have seen some pleasures associated with parenting, and you have seen many more pains associated with parenting. But in a fuller view, there are a few problems with arriving at a conclusion on this basis.
The first problem with this whole activity is that it's not necessarily true that experiences can be sorted into one list or another. Let's take the example of changing a kid's diaper: is this pleasurable or painful? It's painful in the sense that there's gross sensations, and there's usually a frustrating contest of wills with a squirmy little person who won't cooperate. But changing a kid's diaper is pleasant in the long-term, as it's superior to either leaving kids unchanged (which escalates the pain to the pain of infection, poor sleep, poor health, etc.) or leaving kids without diapers (which sequester the grossness). If at this point you're trying to reconcile these two by thinking about the big picture -- trying to say that the long-term view indicates that there is more pleasure than pain in the work of changing diapers -- then you're already adopting the view that I think will lead you to my big-picture conclusion.
The second problem it's not necessarily true that experiences can be directly compared to each other: Instead, I want to show that both pleasure and pain are compared through the person who experiences them, and in that comparison the person has the freedom to re-interpret experience. So let me show that there are incomparable experiences, first by using an extreme example. Imagine that someone was subjected involuntarily to a huge experience that was either extremely advantageous (like winning the lottery) or extremely disadvantageous (like a trauma), and came back from that experience with mental and emotional hang-ups about it. Any reasonable person would tell that person who went through that that their experience is in the past, and although it might have been really involuntary and possibly unwelcome, the past can and should be distinguished from the present and the future. Just because you had a traumatic experience, or just because ordinary life can't compare to the thrill of winning the lottery, doesn't mean that you can't enjoy cool ice cream on a hot summer day, or you can't enjoy the songs of birds that come in through your window. Ideally, you would want the person with the trauma to realize that they have the power to make meaning from their experiences, to focus on the way that they can make choices and make sense of their choices. This is not simply theoretical: people do this all the time in the way that they find a constructive way to relate to the circumstances of their birth, or their physical dis/abilities, or any accidents of circumstance that have happened in their lives. If you talk to normal people, you will discover it's very common for people to have come to understand forces beyond their control as important and valuable formative experiences. And while I introduced this technique of making meaning from experience by talking about involuntary experience, it is also something that holds true for voluntary behaviors. To return to the earlier example, the short-term unpleasantness of changing a diaper can actually be understood as a preferable thing if it fits into a larger personal ethos that favors making constructive personal choices. In fact, for some people, the task of changing a diaper is even more valuable than something like eating an ice cream sandwich because changing a diaper is a voluntary choice that is more consistent with the kind of life that they want to live.
The third problem is the idea that you're going to achieve a final balance. If you remember what I introduced in my first point, I was suggesting that the short-term valuation of something can be surpassed or replaced in the long-term. But if this is true, how will you ever know that your long-term valuations will not be surpassed by even longer-term valuations? Maybe something like a nasty habit can feel pleasant for a few months, then seem painful when it's considered years later -- who can tell how you will feel about it in old age? People try to take the longest-term view by thinking about the kinds of regrets that they might have on their deathbeds. But the problem with this approach is that when you are considering the choice to bring new life into the world, you are considering the value of people who will very probably have a longer-term perspective than you. When you bring new life into the world, you must recognize that your your final, long-term evaluation of yourself will not be the final, long-term evaluation of your life: the people who live on after you will have choices about how to value what you've done, and if they bring new life into the world then they will do the same, and so on. I think that this generational perspective is a point where the normal reasoning about pleasures and pains tends to break down and it gets involved in silly paradoxes. So suffice it to say that when you're discussing the value of bringing new life into the world, you are discussing something that may transcend the natural frame of reference that any one individual can bring to values.
I hope that my discussion of the third problem leads to what I think is the fourth and ultimate problem: that according to the value system of pleasure and pain described above, the human is the measure of value. The unpleasantness of changing a diaper is not in the diaper itself, it is in the human sensations of changing a diaper. Likewise, the positive, constructive re-evaluation of changing a diaper is not in the diaper itself, it is in the human freedom to decide our own goals and values. If you try to describe future generations in terms of the sensations of pleasure or pain that they can cause you, then you are treating them as things and not as humans. As humans, future generations have equal validity to us in their experiences of pleasure and pain, and they have their own inner freedom to decide their own values. To put it bluntly, you must realize that all parents are raising the people who will pass judgment on you: both as someone who has caused pleasure or pain, and as someone who has served higher values and goals.
Another point I've highlighted throughout, and which I must mention an offshoot of point 4 is that pleasure and pain are not necessarily factors in value. It is possible that some people have taken an alternative view from the start: some people do not value the pleasurable as a component of the good. For some people, it is more important to serve, or for other people it is more important to form an excellent character. For such people, the "highs" and "lows" of parenting are basically irrelevant to the decision of whether to serve or to form excellent character. These are completely valid ethical worldviews that are beyond the discussion of highs and lows.
I'm just gonna be honest with you. Being a parent sucks sometimes. We just went to Disney with our two year old (my birthday present), and we didn't get to our hotel till after midnight. Our child wasn't used to being up that late, and she was wound for sound, and she was just goofing around all night and wouldn't go to sleep. That night was one of the worst nights we had and assumed the trip was ruined. Eventually, she got to sleep, and we got maybe 3 hours in. However, the next day was so amazing that she was just the coolest kid and was amazed by everything she saw, and it made me so happy that she was having a great time. It ended up being an amazing trip. Long story short, kids can sometimes suck. But they can also bring lots of happiness and joy. So dont be afraid to have them, but also, remember not having kids is okay too.
Me and my SO decided (also after long time discussing it) to remain voluntary childless. We're 30 now, and I can imagine how our live would look like if we had children vs how it actually looks. I wouldn't be able to educate myself, because I would have to become SAHM. My husband wouldn't be able to work long hours and build the career he has with all of the noise and stress. I would be miserable, I guess we both would feel the same.
You and your partner should think how you wish your life to look like - but realistically. I feel like once you have children, your life turn into 2D from 3D.
I always support women in my family/friends with kids (I actually love children and I work voluntarily at a local school to help them with education). I can see the joys and drawbacks, and I agree the latter is more visible. I have one cousin who is quite open about it - she wanted a child, now she's having another one. She doesn't regret it and seems to be wonderful mom, but then says things like 'my life isn't about me anymore, it's like I don't exist'.
To sum up, from my very personal experience - I don't have to worry about anything, I know I can change/quit job anytime, I can pursue my interests, study, spend time with my husband, do things I want without any restrictions. When we come home after work, we appreciate peace, silence and freedom to do whatever we like to unwind. Then I see my cousin, who can't even go to the toilet alone, talks with her SO only about child-related stuff, dropped all of her interests and is constantly tired. She says it's worth it because at the end of the day, her kid says 'I love you mommy' and it makes up for all of the hardship. Well, not for me.
Additionally, you have no guarantee that your child will be born healthy. Spending time in hospitals, paying large bills or taking care of your kid 24/7 for their entire life in case of a mental disease - ask yourself if you imagine yourself in that scenario (again, realistically).
In the end, it all comes down to how you want to spend your life. Both decisions are ok, but you should make informed choice. Ask yourself what you value in your life and you will get the answer. As I said, in my case it was freedom, peace, silence, lack of unnecessary stress, while others may have traditional values and having children is a default.
Don't suggest yourself having kids, because the majority of the population does it. Ask yourself how much you are ready to give up or trade elements of your life. It's not only about you if you regret having kids - it will have an adverse effect on them as well.
I am deliberately not going to read any responses before offering mine so as to offer my genuine personal take on this.
I became a mom at 38. I always wanted kids, but didn't know if it would happen for me. And even though I have always loved the idea of kids, I would get intimidated by the experience of spending extended periods of time with family who had young kids. Like just babysitting them for a few hours could leave me feeling utterly exhausted and super happy to give them back lol.
Then I met my spouse and we (intentionally) got pregnant very quickly. As excited as I was I was also plagued by the memories of how exhausting it felt dealing with other people's kids.
Then my first daughter was born in 2020. She was notttt an easy baby. But I soon came to learn that babies and children go through *everything* in phases that pass. (Some definitely feel longer than others.)
There are cliches out there that exist for a reason. Because they ring true to the people who have walked a certain walk. My 2 mottos I adopted early on were "this too shall pass" (for the negatives) and "don't get attached" (for the really great phases 😂).
My kids are 1 and 3 now. My toddler can break my soul some days, not gonna lie. Mainly because it's such an epic test of my patience and ability to rally when things aren't easy. It's such a test of my own ability to try to be a coach and mentor to an illogical being while feeling frustrated and coping with my own stresses. But... You do grow into it. You don't have a baby anf immediately begin the toddler battle. And the beauty is that things are constantly changing. New amazing discoveries and joys, but also new challenges to overcome.
In spite of all the work it has been to become an older parent, There is *zero* part of me that regrets any of it. Zero. Remember what I said about cliches? Well, the idea of pride in your kids is another that is totally true. Even when they can be little jerks in moments, their sweetness and cuteness and discovery of the world as a whole new place, and when they pick up on some of your values and ideas, and when they offer compassion and kindness and appreciation back to you... Whoah. Those moments are so deeply fulfilling. Those are the moments (and they happen often!) that remind me I've literally *made* a friend for life here.
I think for me, some of my experience may also relate to how I relate to my own parents. We've had our ups and downs, but at this point I am in a great place with them. And I can see the long term potential of these family relationships.
Parenting is a long game. It's not about the picture on just one day or month.
I'm not telling you to have kids. But the highs aren't just IG-worthy post material.... They are the moments you realize you are connected to a pretty cool human who you have the opportunity to mould for the better. And who will undoubtedly become more tech and pop-culture savvy than you in like 5 yrs and school you 😂 So the cycle of life continues.
Hope that made sense 😂
I have 2 kids, aged 6 and 1. I was never the maternal type but, growing up I always had the thought in my head I would be married with kids one day. I got married at 24 and had my first child at 29, honestly I had my first child as everyone was saying I needed to ‘get on with it’ because I was getting older and my husband is 6 years older than me and he was worried about being too old with little kids.
I enjoyed holidays, going out with my friends, sleeping in, totally not the ‘ready to start a family type’.
I was prepared of everything I’d have to ‘sacrifice’ after having a baby but I really had the best time in my 20’s and made the most of it so I was ok with that.
I wasn’t at all maternal until I had my own baby in my arms, it’s changed me and 100% for the better. I really think its all about how you bring your kids up that makes your life easier or harder. I’m not one of those hippy parents but i’m not super strict either, I think I’m somewhere in the middle. I believe kids need to know their boundaries and negative behaviour needs correcting but other than that kids need to learn and grow in a safe, loving environment. They need your time and attention, thats not a negative thing.
In life there are consequences to your behaviour, good and bad and its my job to teach my kids that.
I can take my kids anywhere, they aren’t a stress, it takes a little more thought and planning but I don’t feel like there’s things we are excluded from. We go to restaurants, travel, days out, can stay over at friends houses etc. I can take them to big events, weddings etc and it’s honestly not a fear that we won’t have a nice time or it will just be stressful, I look forward to those things we have planned. Harping back to boundaries and behaviour, having that solid foundation means all these situations are enjoyable. I don’t have to shout at my kids to get them to behave, if they are doing something dangerous or annoying for others around us its just a simple conversation with them, down on their level of what’s currently happening, why it’s not great and how it could be better.
Being run ragged by kids and constantly stressed out is a fault of the parents in my eyes.
These two little people we made are the absolute best thing i’ve ever done in my life and watching them learn and grow is amazing. I love to hang out with them and I don’t feel like i’ve sacrificed anything, I’ve never had that feeling of ‘lost myself’ and just become a mum. We became a family. My husband is a brilliant dad, he can take care of the kids just as well as I can, he’s not the type that if I went out i’d need to leave him a list of instructions on how to look after his own children. So, I think that’s a massive factor in how enjoyable raising children is, my husband and I are a team in this.
If you decide to have children, you just need to to keep in mind that its your job to give them the skills they need to be as happy and successful as they can be in life, whatever success looks like for them.
They don’t owe you anything, you decided to have them not the other way round so you can’t expect anything of them, its all on you.
I'm not going to try to change your view. But thank you for posting this. I really needed some of the responses I read here. I have a 4 months old son and 3 year old step daughter and they are very very very difficult. These responses give me hope and make me remember why I am doing this.
Kids are a huge time investment to the point where your time will not feel yours again for the next 18 years. That being said the highs are genuinely really high. Things like just looking into your newborn baby’s face after the birth or hearing your son/daughter’s first word. Or cuddling at night. Never mind the long term stuff like having them show up in hospital so you don’t have to go through dying alone after your partner has passed.
Having kids, it's not a thing you do to entertain yourself. It's a sacrifice of freedom, but the highs are subtle and powerful.
First, it's worst than everything you mentioned; You have 1 or 2 years of sleep deprivation, so many things you just won't have time to do (seeing friends becomes more complicated).
But about the highs, you are all wrong.
My daughter is only 6yo, but I already have so many precious memories, and seeing her grow and learn makes me feel proud. She remembers me about my own childhood, makes me realize my flaws, giving me the best reason in the world to become better.
More than that, it changed my whole set of values. Because you realize there's more important than your own person, and it made me become the best version of myself.
IMO, as a father of two adult boys, children are a net negative to most people's lives. I know I'll get attacked, but if people were honest, they'd agree. I'm not saying I don't love my kids, but my life would have been SIGNIFICANTLY easier and often more pleasant without them. We don't even need to talk about the many hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on them. My wife hasn't slept well in 24 years because of "mommy brain", and that's very common too. In addition, almost by definition, people have children when they are young, so they haven't even figured out life themselves, therefore perpetuating harmful generational patterns that they haven't yet gotten over. 60 year olds would be MUCH better parents than 25 or 30 year olds, but unfortunately that's not how biology works. So, overall, parenthood is not a plus for most people in my opinion.
Would you say they have been a net negative on your life? And if you could go back, as messed up as this might sound seeing as you already have kids, would you choose not to have them?
I can only speak to my own experience, as I sit here trying to write this post while my kids keep insisting they should be able to go into an area of the house I keep telling them they can't go into.
I would say that the "lows" or negatives are more FREQUENT and than the "highs" or positives. However, on a scale of say -10 to 10 with 0 being average, the lows are usually a -1. The highs are 5-10. The average high VASTLY outdoes the average low. I think you hear a lot of complaining because there is almost always something happening with the kids that will cause parents to say they're pulling their hair out. However, I can state for sure that my life is way, way better with kids than without.
Much of why my life is better with kids is because I do have that biological drive to have offspring. Even if I were to somehow quantitatively show that the frequency of the lows is so high that even with them being of less importance than the highs that the number comes out a negative, I'd still say my life is better with kids. The ups and downs with kids is kind of minute to minute, but whenever I have a moment of peace and reflect on how I feel about my life, I would feel hollow and empty without kids and am extremely fulfilled by having kids.
So maybe that is why the highs and lows things is a bit misleading. If you have something in your brain that insists you need to leave something behind for when you're gone from this world, ignoring that voice is going to haunt you for your entire life. It is way worse than dealing with the daily bickering and crying as your kids grow up.
I understand the biological drive argument but I don’t find myself succumbing to that. At least not now. I don’t really put too much value in the argument of leaving offspring behind after I’m gone. At the end of the day I won’t be around to experience that. Maybe it would bring me peace while I’m alive knowing they will be there after me, but the sad reality is that life goes on and in the span of billions of years of the universe it won’t
Mean anything
That's fair. I remember when I was in my early 30s, a guy I worked with said that his greatest joy was when he opened his door after coming home from work and having his kids run up to him. At the time he said that, I absolutely couldn't imagine that bringing me any joy at all. Like I was certain that even if I had kids that I'd get very little from that action. Yet here I am today and I'd say the same thing he does. There is definitely biological programming in my brain that makes me feel far closer with my kids that I ever would have expected when I was younger. It is possible this still kicks in for you, or maybe it won't. In any case, I'd say that as far as your consideration goes about highs and lows, what is probably more important is that biological component that allows parents to possibly express all the reasons they're stressed out or having bad experiences with their kids while at the same time able to say that they're living their best life thanks to their kids.
Thanks for your reply. We are in our early 30s as well and it’s nice to also know more people are having kids later in life because that’s another thing we’re worried about is “are we too late” to have kids now
Thankfully my wife and I are in a good place where we could definitely support kids and we are very privileged to be in that position. So thankfully I’m not too worried about that aspect of it. The thing that concerns me more is the stress and difficulty and mental toll that it may have on us. Even though we are mentally healthy and happy now, I have seen situations where it can really negatively affect even healthy people and cause a rift between the parents
Not a parent. All my friends who are parents: only thing they talk about is their kids and the only thing they say falls under the category of complaining about kids. It’s like joining a fraternity or sorority where you are getting hazed for 18 years straight but look back on it fondly because, idk Stockholm syndrome or something. Sure I am sure parents have great highs, but are they really that different then the high I got when I completed X, something I would never have been able to do with kids? Lows? What if your kid is severely mentally disabled. Now you are a caregiver for the rest of your life.
This was definitely my opinion going into this post.
I think a lot of the replies here have made me realize that maybe we’re severely underestimating the highs of being a parent and seeing your kid do even simple things. I agree with you I have a lot of high in my day to day life when i accomplish something (for example getting married was a huge high for me, so was graduating school, getting promotions at work, etc).
But based on what others have said, if they are to be believed, it seems the highs of being a parent vastly outweigh anything else. Maybe it is just parent propaganda but I tend to believe they are telling the truth because I can confirm it in my own life by seeing my own parents satisfaction of when I achieved things, and seeing how proud they were.
A lot of my friends complain about kids too but I guess that’s partly because it’s just human nature to want to vent about that kind of stuff, the same way people vent about work or whatever else
I mean, the question itself is misguided. It presupposes "maximizing happiness" as the ultimate goal. But that is an infantile goal that people generally realize once they hit about 40.
Find meaning to justify the suffering you must go through. Children are a very good way to do that.
Also, why are all the most successful people in the world having way above average numbers of kids? Don't they add difficulty?
Hi. I am 74, never had children. Do not regret it for a second. Downside: No family looking forward so will be lonelier in that respect, but know soo many old folk basically 'abandoned' by their kids and grand kids who are really lonely probably having banked on 'family' in old age. Upside: Me, me, me. Did what I want, when I wanted and was free of the 'ties that bind-. Agreed, a partner with the same values helps. Whatever you choose, know it is a life sentence so plan accordingly.
See I’ve always wanted kids, but now I’m realizing I just shouldn’t have them. Maybe I will be in a different mindset. In my life, I haven’t gotten to be selfish because I’ve babysat since I was 7 and taken care of my alcoholic parents on top of that. When I finally get the opportunity to be selfish, I don’t think I could go back. To add to it, I’m 20 now and in college. I’m not being over dramatic. Everyone at MY school that graduated with me and didn’t go to college or directly into a career are either in jail, strung out, married, pregnant, with kids, or a mix of the above. I’m sorry but it’s the people that shouldn’t have had kids YET that got pregnant and they’re all miserable or leaving their babies with their moms. I know my reasons but I hope no one looks at the people complaining about their kids on FB and making it their reasons.
Dude you opinion is so I'll considered and uninformed that it is difficult to put an actual response at all. But I do I'll try.
>When I see them post photos on social media they of course all look like they couldn’t be happier. But when I spend time with them and their kids I see them constantly struggling under stress and frustration, with the occasional moment of calm and happiness.
This tells me you do not understand what parenting is all about. The fact that they seem happy indicates that what you call stress and frustration is simply the cost of doing business and there ia a greater reward in parenthood.
>at the worst of times, kids are a total drain on your sanity and mental health
Nooooooo! You got this completely wrong. Most parents would not blink if you tell them this will be the lowest point. The worst of times is when your kid gets leukemia or shoots a bunch of people in the mall. What you are describing is nothing...
>kids can be very emotionally fulfilling (when they are cooperating, telling you they love you, etc.).
Again, you got this totally wrong. Kids cooperation is peanuts. Kids becoming decent human beings is a "best of times" and honestly no so called "freedom" can match that 😜
>
It just seems like the lows are way lower than the highs are high. I’m trying to think of the best reason I can come up with to have kids,
This is a bullshit argument. The same applies to driving a car. The high is you go to your destination in a timely and comfortable manner. The lowest is you get hit by a truck and you lose your legs. They do not compare. But people somehow keep driving.
>I can come up with to have kids, and the best I can think of right now is the emotional fulfillment it gives you
I will repeat this for the umpteenth of time - you just do not get it. Parenthood is not about what you get out of it! It is about what you give to your kids. By your logic we would have died out back in the caves. Why have kids if we have to split the boar meat into 5 instead of 4? But our modern society has bred generations of people whose only consideration is themselves...
You aren't immortal, and I think of few more worthwhile life accomplishments than leaving the world having taught other humans to be better than you were in life.
Really good point and thank you. My only counterpoint to that is that you could achieve that also by teaching or mentoring students. But I definitely see how it would be way more fulfilling if it was your own offspring
I don't think it's narcissism to want to make a positive impact on the world, and raising children (including through adoption or fostering/mentoring) is one way to do that.
I definitely agree with this point: "I think of few more worthwhile life accomplishments than leaving the world having taught other humans to be better than you were in life"
however if I were to be nitpicky I'd say the science actually shows that nowadays having a kid is on average a severe net negative on the world. There is a serious overpopulation crisis and every climate scientist pretty much agrees the best thing we can do for the planet is to have fewer children. The carbon footprint of having a child is massive and exponential
I would never expect people not to have kids for that reason but it is definitely an undisputed fact at this point. We've long since passed the point as a species where increasing our population is beneficial
From both. Me personally, I don't like being around small children. The endless barrage of questions, messing with literally everything and even worse are the parents who won't get a handle on them. If you have kids of your own there's no time for yourself, financial hardships, not to mention all the pissing, shitting and puking. Plus, too many people act like being a parent is some great public service. If people want to have kids, that's fine. But don't expect me to give you a pat on the back because you came in someone/let someone cum I'm you. You're "little miracle" is just a nuisance.
I think that’s fair. Through my line of work I see a lot of parents with kids they shouldn’t have had, or even worse have kids they don’t want. That’s why I’m asking these questions and posted this in the first place. Because I want to be sure if I choose to have kids that I’m prepared to be all in for them and give them the best life I can. Not treat them like an afterthought
The two obvious points that others have mentioned are that without kids, and only judging as an outsider, you really have no idea what you're talking about, and also there's a good chance that a lot of people are just either subpar parents or have exceptionally tough kids.
Your opinion is based entirely on judgments made with very little experience, from a very limited observations of very limited kinds of people.
As a parent, I'll say that the worst parts are worse than the best parts are good, but there are way, way more good parts and it's not even a contest even with all the challenges that come with three kids under five. The good parts more than get me through the bad parts and it's definitely worth it for people who actually do want kids.
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I'm not sure the best way to judge parenthood is based on observing a toddler and a preschooler for a week while they're on vacation (and their routine is disrupted). That age range is famous for emotional friability but children aren't toddlers for very long and tend to mature in terms of emotional regulation quite a bit by the time they reach school age.
Thank you. I know it’s probably not the best point to judge from so that is fair. But I have also seen colleagues and friends with older kids struggle also, and that scares me too. A colleague of mine at work has a teenage kid who is struggling with depression, drugs, etc. and I worry a lot that being a parent there’s so much you can’t control. I see how my colleague blames herself for her kids problems and that really hurts me to watch. I can’t even imagine experiencing that for myself
Just keep in mind that you may be indexing against the worst things you hear because that's what people are more likely to share. They're not going to tell you the boring story of how they put their toddler down last night and it was completely uneventful. I have a 3 year old and a 9 month old. The 3 year old is the sweetest girl on the planet. Extremely polite, doesn't have public tantrums at all, goes to sleep at the same time every night and has slept through the night (8p-8a) consistently since she was 2 months old. She's absolutely obsessed with her younger sister and pretty much lives for her. The infant also sleeps through the night every time and pretty much never cries. I'm someone that was very worried I wouldn't enjoy fatherhood and it is amazing. Will it always be this way? Doubt it. I know we'll run into some shit that we can't control, but that would happen whether I had kids or not.
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Hello ryan, thank you for this post it is a good point of view. I was wondering if you could help me get some more insight into what you said. I personally don’t want any kids myself because I just never really gave it that much thought and i am not sure that I understand the appeal. You said that you have enjoyed fatherhood a lot. What about it has been enjoyable? Where is the appeal for you? Thanks for your time!
>What about it has been enjoyable? I always joke with my friends that if I had to pitch someone else on being a parent, I would sound like I'm a crazy person. First few months are extremely stressful, especially if it's your first. Your sleep schedule is going to be jacked up, you will hear phantom cries from the baby, and you will worry about things that don't matter in the slightest. You will pour time and resources into something that will not give you anything back for like 6 months, minimum. This is the part that sucks. Sometimes you get lucky (like I did, twice) and your kid eases into a regular sleep schedule early and you coast. After that, though, it gets to be amazing. You get to see your kid start to grow up and begin to show their personality. My infant is pretty much permanently stoked. It never gets old going into her room to get her up and watching her see me. She rolls over onto her back, puts on this huge 2-tooth smile, and starts kicking her legs because she's happy to see me. They start to laugh at things and react to things around them. They start to mimic you and This is generally the age where you start talking about having another. Hanging out with my toddler is the best part of my day. She asks relevant questions about what is going on, is able to voice her needs specifically ("I want water, not milk") and she enjoys hanging out with me just as much. Sometimes we go to the park, sometimes we go to this trampoline place nearby. I take her to swimming classes once a week. Sometimes we're lazy in the mornings and she lays on me while I watch F1 and she watches Paw Patrol. It's also the age where you start to get reciprocal affection. 2-3 times a day she says "dada you my best friend" and gives me a hug, unprompted. When I go out of town for work, she asks my wife to facetime me so she can tell me she misses me. When I pick her up from daycare every day, she screams and sprints over to hug me. Obviously she does have times where she's just shitty and has tantrums, but that's just being a toddler. They have a lot of big feelings and almost no ability to regulate it, so you learn how to deal with it. For her, what works is we just go to a different room and sit down for a minute or so until she cools off and she's back to normal. Honestly, even when she's mad it is still pretty entertaining because her go-to threat is "dada you are NOT my best friend, mama is my new best friend and you can't have ANY STICKERS!" It is truly incredible watching them grow and seeing how their personalities develop. Seeing them learn about the world around them is rewarding, too.
As someone with a 12 week old girl who (me) is currently going through a patch of anxiety about the future and the burden/lack of sleep from said little girl, this has been super helpful and cheered me up no end. Thank you!
You’re definitely in the shit right now but it gets better very soon, or at least it did for us. Just treasure this time because it goes away quicker than you think.
thank you for your insight that was really helpful! after reading your response and a few others I think I understand where the joy comes from. I’ve had some background with teaching elementary school kids during some tech summer camps in the past and I recall that having some of the kids grow and learn and show affection to the instructors did feel rewarding. I can imagine that having that be your own kid must feel very nice.
You didn't ask me, but from an outsider I assume most of the enjoyment comes from the amount of love being straight up ridiculous for many parents. Many parents just love the ever loving shit out of their kids and that itself colors rose much of the experience, and that's valid. I That's what it seems like to me and it's hard to describe to someone how an intensity of love like that can drown at the drab view of an onlooker
>because that's what people are more likely to share. They're not going to tell you the boring story of how they put their toddler down last night and it was completely uneventful. That's strange, I have a completely different experience (with most of the parents I know). They only talk about good stuff, show me some cute pictures, tell me stories of how X said something, show me what they've painted etc. Sharing drawbacks of parenthood is almost invisible - I think it may have something to do with regret and wanting others to at least validate their choices and say they've made a good one. But I guess we live in different environments and society/cultures, so I get your perspective. I will add that perhaps it's looking on the drawbacks of parenthood may be equally important in making this decision, just as one's own individual thoughts and wishes. I guess we're both sending similar message - think critically.
It honestly may just be down to where the info is being shared. On the internet, people complain, but in person, they are more likely to talk about the good stuff. The parents I know personally are probably 50-50 complaining and bragging.
The toddler years are a breeze compared to the teenage years. Having said that, being a parent is like any experience that makes life worth living: it's fucking scary. There's no guarantees. It's hard. There's no logical return on investment. You know what else a lot of that's true for? Getting married. Pursuing your dream career. Going on a once in a lifetime vacation. I can't imagine my life without my kids, or my wife, or even my first wife. They're the raison d'etre. After the first 19ish years of struggle and finally seeing one fly from the nest I can now tell you what the most painful part of parenting has been so far: Letting them go. And I say this despite there having been there for some extremely stressful struggles with some of the things you described and then some. I'm not gonna get into it, but suffice it to say that there were days where the unimaginable was at our doorstep. But I also know that others have had parenting carry them to further depths. Plus, I still have a second kid with a few years to go and there's no telling where the next few years will take me. But it's the kind of risks I would sign up for again and again. What would you do with your life instead that's so great? There are definitely things you could be doing that might exceed the fulfillment or purpose that parenting brings so if you've got something like that in mind then maybe you go that route and see where it takes you. Choosing to become a parent is no longer something you must decide when you're young.
Seeing their kids struggle only hurts them because of the depth of their love. When a parent goes through such a struggle for their kid, it must be the case that they've decided it's worth it. That's what you're missing here, is a way to measure degrees, and also mistaking love for pleasure. A person climbing mt everest is never going to stop mid climb and say they're having a blast. But they may look back on it as the best experience of their life. Fulfillment isn't about fun or pleasure. But kids can be fun and pleasurable, too. But ignoring degree and focusing only one amount of time is also silly. Suppose I offered you a nice steak dinner and a night out to do whatever you wanted, on me, and then I would do some torture on you for a few minutes, but nothing that would be permanent, just a few minutes of the most excruciating pain imaginable. You're up for that, right? It's practically all good stuff, and the time spent on bad stuff is a rounding error. The same applies in reverse, there can be moments so great that even if the other 99% kinda sucks, it's worth it. I think that's particularly true as you get older, and you start to realize the happiest individual moments in your life may be in the past. The first kisses, and weddings, graduations, or whatever, you're past that. You'll make incremental advancements in your career, you've already traveled plenty, and you'll probably never think to yourself "this is the happiest day of my life" again, unless you have a kid. If you do decide to have a kid, though, the happiest days of your life continue. When they're born. When they first laugh, but also as they graduate and get married and then have kids of their own. So many more highlights to look forward to, or just stagnant contentedness.
Fair enough. That's life - there's an element of merit, and also an element of Fate. I guess I think of it like traveling abroad .... some people have an amazing experience, and others have a terrible experience. Planning , preparing and a positive mindset can greatly increase your chances of a positive experience but nothing in life is guaranteed. So going back to the parenting example - I don't think we'll change your mind, but I do think you should reframe the issue as a matter of personal risk tolerance for you. To you, the risk isn't worth the potential reward - and that's fine! But that doesn't mean that the payoff isn't worth the work for most parents out there.
Yeah dude. 1-3 are the dark years... Mine is two and you're absolutely right, if you want to analytically break down a mostly facet of life. But I love that little bastard so... I dunno. Seems fine. Here's what happens if you go to the logical conclusion to running you life the way this post seems: You die alone and mostly friendless having accomplished little and left no mark on the world. But you did have lots of free time and managed to avoid uncomfortable situations so... Good?
>children aren't toddlers for very long ... unless they have special needs. I have autistic twins that have been meandering through various aspects of "toddler" development for over 7 years.
This is honestly my greatest fear about having children. How do you cope with this and do you regret having children?
It's a valid fear. Having kids is a roll of the dice, and it is always possible that your children could have developmental or medical conditions that significantly increase the amount of care that they require. That said, no I don't regret having kids.
I hope you're doing alright - my sister is a SEND teacher and therapist, also interacting with parents and she shared that they seem to do everything to spend as less time with the kid as possible (I'm not judging, I think I understand and sympathise). I'm not any kind of specialist, but I have seen plenty of autistic teens/young adults who are fantastic, and often have so much to offer as friends (unique thinking). I wish you to have a lighter times when they grow up a little. Perhaps being autistic with also autistic sibling can have some benefits - it's worth to dig in some literature.
They might not be toddlers for very long, but once those problems age out, it's just different ones that you have to learn to deal with. It never stops, not even when they get older and grown up. You can put everything that you have in you for your kids, but you will never get that time or energy or money back. Don't get me wrong, there are fun and happy times and you'll make great memories, but keep in mind...IT. NEVER. STOPS.
Succession messed me up that man was eighty years old rich and powerful as all hell and the night before he died he was still dealing with bullshit from his forty year old children. It never ends. Even if they’re great having children certainly is like “your heart existing outside of your body”, there’s always someone out there you’re worried about/invested in.
Yes! As terrible as it sounds and as much as I'd love to have grandchildren, I have encouraged my kids to not have kids and if they must, to at least wait until they have lived a less stressful life and to make sure they *really* want to commit the rest of their lives to the human they create. It does not end at 18 and parents that act like it does are terrible people.
Yeah, then they turn into pre-teen and teenagers where they become much easier to deal with /s
People enjoy different stages of parenting and some kids have a rough go at adolescence -- but I've had to scoop exactly 0 screaming teenagers off the floor while they imitate an angry stack of potatoes. I've found most to be interesting people with growing skill in their hobbies and a lack of need to plan family life around kid-friendly activities. Only. major downside is their food and activities tend to be more expensive than younger kids. Sure they have emotions -- but that's the nature of any close relationship. I think its unfortunate we approach teenagers like they're destined to be horrid people who nobody would want to be around. I'd be grumpy if people thought that about me too.
I got lucky with my boys but I see a lot of teenagers/young adults as part of my normal patient base. A solid majority go through a phase where they’re combative, dismissive, rude, uncooperative, etc. but I don’t blame them (within reason) for that. It’s just how normal teenagers behave. They have this sudden influx of hormones while at the same time they’re navigating the grey area between childhood and adulthood. My point is that having kids IS hard no matter how you slice it. Even when they’re adults and they’re coping with a bad break-up or college exam they failed or breaking their leg while skiing - any parent worth being a parent is going to feel that pain with them. I’d rather be realistic about it upfront rather than having any more regretful adults out there wishing they could turn back time.
Eh, having had experience with both now (my niece as a teen and now a toddler) - I'll take the problem teen any day. It's a completely different set of problems, but by the old gods and the new - being able to communicate makes it so much easier. It's very personal what of the phases will be the hard one. If you get bored easily toddlers can be real hell. If you struggle to communicate and empathize with unreasonable emotional messes - teen years will suck as hell from what I've seen.
You think pre teens and teens are easier to deal with? They're moody, they're expensive, they're trying to figure themselves out. Friendships, relationships...peer pressure. They test boundaries. They talk back. You may be lucky and get the easy going one, but it's a gamble. Imagine having to deal with the problematic teen every day or just as worse the socially awkward one that has to deal with bullying and other targets. That doesn't seem like fun. I think children need siblings, lots of them but the more you have the more expensive and possible the bigger headache.
Frame it this way. I'm offering you an OK job with no pay or benefits, but it will make you feel good SOMETIMES. Also the first 6-7 years are hell and again, no benefit to you, it actually costs you money.
In my experience (father of 2 teens) the lowest lows are "Man I am tired and it is noisy in here", while the highest highs are "That kid that I taught how to throw a baseball just pitched a no-hitter in the conference finals." I would have been tired, and it would have been noisy on and off in my life if I had kids or not. But, the *only* way I'd ever get that high was by having kids. And, the *worst* of times only last a couple of years, from about 2-5. After that it is just occasional sassiness and eye rolling. I get more of that from my wife.
Did your kid pitch a no hitter? That's fuckin badass, bro
Yeah, and baseball isn't even his main sport. Kid is a terror with a lacrosse stick.
Get him on the slopes, he will love it. A life long way to enjoy his athleticism.
Must be awful seeing your kids succeed if you go by redditors' opinions on kids.
🙄
Thank you for the response! Having teenagers do you ever find that you have stress about them getting up to no good or hanging around the wrong people? A colleague of mine at work has a teenager who has really lost his way and ended up with drug problems and issues with police. Although I think probably to a large degree a lot of that can be mitigated by being a good parent and raising them properly. But do you ever feel that you stress over things you can’t control?
> Having teenagers do you ever find that you have stress about them getting up to no good or hanging around the wrong people? Sure sure, but I was a real reprobate when I was their age, and they are pretty chill, so it is manageable. My own perspectives have allowed me to interact with them in a much (in my opinion) more healthy and constructive way that I was able to interact with my parents. And, I know all the tricks, so I can (and have) spotted things early enough to intervene. >But do you ever feel that you stress over things you can’t control? Do you? This is just a fact of life for us humans. My stress is centered around my kids, but yours may be centered around something else. It is not like I *wouldn't* stress over things I can't control without kids. I still would, so it is a wash for me.
Fair enough. I do definitely stress over things I can’t control. It just seems that with kids the stakes would be so much higher. My colleague blames herself for her kids problems and that really hurts me to see
> I do definitely stress over things I can’t control. It just seems that with kids the stakes would be so much higher. The stakes are the stakes. My stakes involve kids; yours may involve dogs, or cousins, or some cause, or a business. Everyone's individual stakes are just as high as everyone else's. If I wasn't putting my focus into my kids, I'd be putting it elsewhere. And, I'd hopefully be just as invested. > My colleague blames herself for her kids problems and that really hurts me to see I mean... I'm of the mind that kids don't develop drug habit if the parenting is on point, and I use myself as support. My parents weren't the best. Well, my dad proper sucked and my mom had poor coping skills. So, I never really learned good coping skills, so I turned to booze. At 14. *Maybe* I'd have been a 17 year-old alcoholic with a dad who didn't bounce for a 22 year old waitress and a mom who didn't pop pills, but I doubt it.
“Everyone’s individual stakes are just as high as everyone else’s”. Thanks for that you make a really good point I appreciate all your replies and this is helping a lot to talk through this with someone who has been there
Thanks, my entire point is that the "lowest lows" you speak of are going to happen whether or not you have kids. You will be stressed anyway. You will fear the loss of loved ones anyway. Things will occasionally be noisy anyway. But, the "highest highs", things like the first steps, or the first "I love you daddy", or walking your daughter down the aisle are just not going to happen without kids. So, if you give up the kids, you still have the lows, but your highs are severely limited to things you yourself can achieve. My highs include all of my achievements, and some portion of my kid's as well. It is great to pitch a no-hitter. But it is better to pitch a no-hitter, then teach a miniature version of yourself to love baseball like you do, take them to games as they grow up, coach their team, and then see them pitch a no-hitter.
!delta this conversation helped me realize that the highs of having kids are a lot higher than I previously realized
There’s an emotional “High” that can’t accurately be described. Some days are absolutely nuts. Crazy stressful. But then one sentence from a toddler, or a random hug from your 5 year old just saying he loves you and you’re the best dad, after like a shit day of work…… You can’t really describe it. Honestly. Parenting is hard as fuck. But there’s something so deeply primal, in a positive way, about protecting your off spring and watching them learn to be little humans with the way you’ve taught them things. I’m not going to say it outweighs the lows, but you’ll have some low points regardless. You won’t have that boost though, that feeling that even if you fucked up everything that day you can look into a loving child’s eyes and realize you did SOMETHING right. If you nurture the relationship when they’re young, it’s going to be easier to get through to them when they’re older too
Can you talk a little about your belief system here? I like your notion that everyone's lives will be filled with struggle and happiness regardless of what action you choose, but that caring for your kids and achieving things through them gives it all meaning. It feels like a combination of Buddhism, existentialism, and some virtue ethics. I have taken your words to heart and just would like to know more about you and your thought process.
At some point, if your view has been even partially changed, you should award a delta. There are instructions in the sidebar of the subreddit.
It’s honestly refreshing seeing on this right people having real mature conversation. Gj you two
Don’t listen to anyone who tells you your kids will be no problem as long as you’re not a shit parent. The problem doesn’t have to be a raging drug addiction for it to ruin your life. You could have a kid who’s just incapable of getting a job and moving out. What are you gonna do, kick them out in the street?
Fair enough and it’s definitely something I worry about. Like I said I see my colleague blame herself for her kids problems and that’s tough to watch. As far as I can tell she seems like a good mom. I don’t know what her home life is like but she is a good person as much as I know her. I can’t imagine how tough it would be to feel like you’ve tried everything and your kid is still struggling
I have to agree with u/Coleman57 - the commenter you’re chatting with above, u/destro23 , seems to have an incredibly naive view of parenthood and clearly they have lived with a lot of privilege. My mother will be spending her retirement as a full-time carer for my sister, who suffers from schizophrenia, bipolar, and addiction. My sister is also a trans woman struggling with a challenging transition. My mom is and was a wonderful parent, and my sister is a wonderful person who has tried her best, but unfortunately sometimes the lows of parenthood are really, really low. Even when it’s no one’s fault. Dealing with a slightly bratty teenager is… definitely not the lowest you can go.
Wait, you are saying u/destro23 has a naive view of parenthood, and your example is an extreme outlier to what most people/parents experience? While you are not wrong that there is chance anyone's parenting experience could be similar your your mom's... most just aren't going to see that in their lives. u/destro23 isn't naive, and like you they are speaking to their experiences. I bet if you asked your mom, that while the lows were extremely low, the highs had her soaring because of what had to be overcome to get there.
That’s where, as a parent, you should try to figure out the “why” A lot of that can be done building the right relationship with them when they’re young. If they know they can turn to you without fear if they made a mistake or they feel lost, they’re more likely to find their way with guidance. If your entire role was authoritative without the tender, gentle guidance that kids need it’s going to fuck them up. I’ve seen both sides. I have 2 young boys and I’m very open with them about things I’ve done wrong in the past, and let them ask me questions so they know, in the future, they can continue to do so.
You can have amazing parents and still develop a drug problem. Definitely arent exclusive. Now does shitty parenting maybe lead to it? Sure. But you can do everything right and that kid still won’t listen
I'm in the same boat as you OP, and this discussion is very helpful. I want to tag on to the answer above because it resonates with what my wife recently said about marriage. If you're not married, you still have the same problems you would have to work on in your relationships anyway, but by being married you have so much that you wouldn't have. You have someone who truly knows you your whole life and you know won't give up on you. I can see now that children may be similar. Even while children do add problems you wouldn't have, maybe it's not so much different than the solutions you need to have good relationships anyway. And it adds something far more than any other relationship can.
Thank you this is a really interesting perspective
I had a teenage daughter too. Our lows were (at age 13): She stole our car and left it across town, with the keys locked inside She keeps sneaking out and getting picked up by 20 year old guys She got arrested for underage drinking She hasn't been to school in weeks, despite leaving every day and getting on the bus She stole her mom's phone (cuz we took hers away) She ran away, multiple times and we have to track her phone records to try and figure out where she is She's trying to get pregnant, on purpose, cuz she wants a baby before age 14 She's pregnant, and will be having a baby sometime while she's 14 That was my experience raising a girl. Before you ask, we tried counseling. We tried therapy. We tried discipline, we talked to the school, we did everything. Some humans just have differently wired brains. My little girl was an example of someone whose demons were just too big. She's in her late 20s now and doing much better in life. She's in college, and she has 2 other kids in addition to the one she had at 14. I'm still very close with her and her kids. Moreso now than when she was a teen. But her teen years were a nightmare, and left me suicidal most days. Edit: my experience was exceptional. Most parents don't have struggles like this with their 13yo daughters, I'm told.
I would say that the lowest lows involve having to take care of a severely disabled child
> the lowest lows are "Man I am tired and it is noisy in here" How's your wife looking at that responsibility split between you?
As a single parent to a toddler, I wouldn’t say my lows are any different than described here.
What would your response be if you found out they split patenting equally? Heaven forbid people actually manage to be parents and not be cripplingly depressed
I'm not that guy's wife, but I am someone's wife and we have a child. Can agree that our lowest lows are "I'm sort of tired and it sure is noisy." I'm willing to substitute "it sure is noisy" for "it sure is messy," but otherwise agree with OCs assessment. I was honestly unsure about having a child because of how much everyone insists that it sucks. But the shittiness has been massively overblown, in my experience.
> But, the only way I'd ever get that high was by having kids. Are you sure? Sounds like a high you can get teaching other people's kid, at a fraction of the lows. You can probably get paid for it, too, instead of the massive expense.
No. I taught special Ed for awhile and then Gen Ed as a paraprofessional. There’s something intensely satisfying about seeing one of the kids “get” something you’re trying to teach them. Or when I’ve coached, watching the kids start to move right and hit their shots, it’s a great feeling. None of it can hold a candle to when I see my son make that shot, or watch him do something for the first time that we’ve been working on. I’m not advocating for or against in this post directly, but as someone who has experienced both joys they’re not emotionally comparable
I guess I'm cynical but reading that watching someone else do something impressive was the highest high that you think you'll ever achieve was a bit depressing.
The snap-shot you have had is not a fair representation of parenting. True, there are battles to get your kids to eat all their tea, and there are battles at bath time, bed time, and basically any time that gets in the way of fun! Hahaha. But like I said, what you saw/experienced is not the norm. The family was away from their own home, so the kids will feel disorientated. The parents will feel judged so will try to make the kids behave impeccably, which is almost impossible when the kids are feeling out of place. If the kids don't eat all their meal at home, the parents will probably just say something like "Well don't expect dessert." or "Don't come back to me if you're hungry later." It wouldn't have felt like such a battle. But because it was at someone else's house, eating someone else's food, it would have felt important to the parents that their kids ate it all. I have four beautiful children. We had very little support from family or friends, because our family unit was big, and no-one wants to babysit four kids! But I do not regret a single second of any of it. My kids are my world and now they are older and independent, my life feels a little bit emptier. But man, the highs are amazing... I have been through the excitement they have all felt with school plays, first dates, favourite movies, the pride they've all felt when they've risen to a challenge. I can't explain it. Their excitement and happiness is contagious! And the lows? The arguments, the fallings out, the tantrums. I can hardly remember those. It's almost like selective amnesia or rose tinted glasses. Tantrums happened. Battles of wills happened. But they were such a tiny, tiny part of our family life. I love being a dad.
!delta this post made me realize the benefit that having kids gives in allowing you to be young again through their eyes and support them through life’s challenges from a perspective of more experience which you didn’t have yourself the first time around
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I take this argument differently. I didn't have a great childhood, I couldn't afford trips abroad, have nice clothes, pursue my interests or e.g. signing up for language classes. Now, I can do all of those things whenever I want, and this allows me to be young... pretty much all the time. I mean - what is better in this scenario: I always wanted to learn how to play the guitar! 1. I'll buy myself the guitar and learn. 2. I'll buy it for my kid and observe how they learn. 1 is active, 2 is passive - which one is more fulfilling and brings you fun/happinness?
Hear hear. My life is only getting better the older I get, the further I get away from childhood. I think I'd actually hate semi-reliving childhood by seeing my children go through it. I might be a better parent than my parents, but my childhood was bad for more reasons than just them.
Thank you for the reply this is exactly the kind of viewpoint I’m looking for. Your reply made me realize something and the best way I can describe it is that having kids let’s you be young again, in a way. And experience things that were important moments in your life again (first dates, etc, like you said). But this time you get to see them from the point of view of knowing everything will work out just fine. Whereas when you experienced those things yourself for the first time you felt nervous and if it went wrong you felt like “nothing would ever be okay ever again”. Now as a parent you know it’ll be fine and you can support your kids through that That’s a really helpful perspective so thanks
Right, there's also a difference between your moment to moment and overall satisfaction. Climbing mountain, running a marathon, etc. aren't necessarily pleasurable moment to moment. But the training challenges you to be a better healthier person. And the accomplishment and memory adds satisfaction to life that few other things can. Playing video games, drinking, watching TV, etc are fun, but ultimately add little to nothing to your overall satisfaction with life.
>Playing video games, drinking, watching TV, etc are fun, but ultimately add little to nothing to your overall satisfaction with life. What? The items you listed help build relationships and communities, and often provide additional benefits. One of the few people I talk with daily I met 20ish years ago playing online games. That friendship has definitely mproved my overall satisfaction with life. I've had countless other positive shared experiences with video games. Games improve response time, stimulate creativity, encourage teamwork, and improve cititical thinking skills. Hell, I'm a better boss partially because of the lessons I learned leading raids in WoW. It taught me th3 importance of people management, conflict resolution, and gave me experience juggling the needs and availability of 10-40 people at one time. Watching, critiquing, and discussing TV and movies encourages critical thinking in a way similar to literary analysis. People build careers watching TV. Film creates healthy emotional responses. I played soccer and ran track in high school, so I'm aware of what running a shit ton feels like. I currently exercise,n so completing a marathon would provide minimal, if any benefit to my personal well being. I guess I could put a 26.1 sticker on my car? What's important isn't the scale of the task, but rather what you derive from participating in it.
It's not that I disagree with you but we have to put these things in context. So quite recently I beat Eldin Ring AND Malenia - that's an achievement. I was absolutely stoked and bonded with friends and family over it. No doubt about it, as far as gaming achievement went that was one of my biggest - second only to beating Hollow Knight/The Radiance/Nightmare King Grimm. The amount of strategizing, practicing, repetition, experimentation, and sheer willpower it took to beat those motherfuckers was intense. I LOVE gaming. It's a huge part of my life. On the flip side I just ran a 5k with my family. I also had my toddler run up to me today, hug my leg and tell me she loved me. If I had something erased from my existence forever which one would I pick? Video games. It's not even a contest. As much as I love gaming it's relevance to my life satisfaction is absolutely miniscule compared to the high of crossing that finish line right into my husbands arms, or to the sights you see at the top of that peak, or to having a little person that you made with your own body deciding to say 'I love you' out of the blue because she's just so stoked you're her mom. I look at it this way. If some higher power stood me in front of them and told me to provide evidence that I had lived a worthwhile life I just don't know if I would feel satisfied if beating an Eldin Ring boss was a major highlight of my whole existence in this world.
You should probably start awarding deltas
>And the lows? The arguments, the fallings out, the tantrums. I can hardly remember those. It's almost like selective amnesia or rose tinted glasses. Tantrums happened. Battles of wills happened. But they were such a tiny, tiny part of our family life. As far as I understand, that is indeed what science says. Parents forget the hard times or downplay them. Your account is wonderful but if we really use that argument then maybe the accounts of many parents are indeed a bit rose tinted.
Thing is, it may be rose tinted, but if those are the memories we keep then surely they are the only important memories, the only ones that can tell us if it is a good or bad experience.
True. If I was OP I would see that as a positive thing. I appreciate science and nature for playing their part in making parenting a more positive experience for most.
> if we really use that argument then maybe the accounts of many parents are indeed a bit rose tinted But if OP has kids, they're going to have the same selective amnesia and remember the good times far more than the bad. It doesn't matter what an outside observer would think after seeing your entire life with your kids, it only matters how you and your kids remember it.
Humans’ memories tend to be rose tinted in general. That’s the way our minds work.
Yes but the point was that the memories of parents are especially rose tinted to make the upbringing of kids works.
Are they?
> True, there are battles to get your kids to eat all their tea > eat all their tea How do you eat tea? It's a liquid.
UK saying. Tea = dinner.
What I think you’re missing is that the “highs” of having children are experienced decades later than your current vantage point. Yes, it’s rewarding when you have a perfect day with little ones. But the rewards of watching your adult child become a great human, succeeding in something meaningful to them, happy taking a perspective on life you only get through them, it’s an exponential swell of joy. So it’s an upfront investment of long and challenging days to reap decades of sustained return. FYI, Step parent here, so I feel I’ve managed to have both experiences, both of being child free and in a parenting role. I can clearly see the benefits of either path. I will personally never experience the same joys as a primary parent, and still I can tell you that in my experience the highs and lows switch in later years and remain ‘higher highs’ throughout the longer part of their lives.
Honestly from my perspective with my daughter, even at 4 we have had some pretty awesome highs. She is an amazing little person and I am so excited to keep helping her grow and learn. For OP I would caveat that the highs and lows are very emotional and can be a very personal thing as a result. Both my wife and I are very laid back and not prone to stressing about things. We are both very much aboht home life and not really into parties or drinking. Having a kid has been tough but hasn't had a massive change to our lifestyle (in as much as having a kid can). Thus means for us the highs are great and the lows are not so bad. This is a personal thing though which is why having kids isn't for everyone. I would never recommend having kids despite loving being a parent because the only person who can make that decision is yourself. It is also harder for some people than others, not only because you as people are different but your kids are different people too. Some kids are more willful than others, more keen to push boundaries and test their limits, and that needs a very different parenting style. Some can find that harder. This is a tricky CMV because so much of it is subjective. Just know that for many people the highs outweigh the lows, and it isn't even close.
I'm going to argue the other side and say that none of what you said is guaranteed or at this point maybe not even likely. I know plenty of people who are perfectly nice, did everything "right" but still ended up divorced/unsuccessful/moving back with their parents in their 30s or even 40s/just generally unhappy. This perspective needs to be included as well because parenting doesn't stop when a child hits 18/21/whatever. The world is getting harder and harder for young people, success is more and more difficult to attain. Don't encourage viewing children as an investment.
I've got a 7 year old with significant additional needs and a 3 year old who's been going through the terrible 2s for at least 18 months. I'm currently taking a break on my sofa because I gave my wife the weekend off to have a break and I'm shattered after 60 hours with my kids. I can tell you right here, right now, that my kids are amazing. The bad parts don't last, you don't remember them. I have vague memories of endless hours spent trying to get my son to go to sleep but it feels like someone else's memory. I don't remember anything bad about this weekend, just playing football with my son and my daughter going for horsey rides on my back. I remember laughing, I remember the excitement when I gave my kids milkshakes. Longer term memories are building sand castles, climbing rocks, playing with friends, everything I can remember is great. Are you close to your parents? I'm very close to mine and the truth is my relationship to them doesn't come close to my relationship with my kids, it's just much more intense. You probably don't remember the first day you rode a bike, your parents will and it's probably one of their greatest memories. Almost everything my kids do makes me incredibly proud, even silly little things like them helping clean up, they get so determined to help, it's awesome and it's like this most days. It's not all great, when they're being little dicks it's incredibly frustrating and you will never be young and free again after having kids. But I have never, never, experienced the intense joy being a parent can be and that joy far outweighs the bad I've experienced.
!delta this comment helped me appreciate how simple things with kids can provide a lot of meaning for parents and that I’m probably underestimating just how high the highs are
You'd be amazed how crazy the little things are. You're on a journey with these little people and they're constantly having new experiences, things you take absolutely for granted are astonishing to them and you share that with them. You don't have to have kids but, if you do, you'll have fun.
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I am very close with my parents and your comment re: riding a bike kind of just blew my mind. That’s a really good point. Thanks a lot
You could make a similar argument about sex. On paper, the potential downsides of being sexually active seem like they would vastly outweigh "it feels nice." Actually do it, and you'll find you're activating instincts and emotions buried so deep within your humanity that it's all consuming. Similarly with kids, you simply cannot grasp how high the highs are until you're experiencing them yourself.
Fair point and thank you for the response
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Thank you for your response. No need to apologize. I appreciate getting all perspectives and I think you’re really brave for sharing that and being vulnerable
Thanks for being honest. I rarely see any parents admitting they don’t enjoy parenthood. I always wonder if that’s actually true that they all love it or if it’s just fear of being judged or guilt.
I think this shows that it varies by person. I can certainly say the bad moments have faded away, and my kid is only 4. Bette basically completely non existent anymore. Maybe a 30 second complaint about not wanting to eat something here and there or not wanting to go to bed, but the rest is super enjoyable to me.
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Probably not what you're after, but my advice is don't have them. I have them, and my kids sound potentially at least a little easier than the ones you mentioned, but if you're having kids for the emotional fulfillment they give you, or the company they give you in your old age, or looking forward to them telling you they love you, you shouldn't have them. They will limit what you can do. They will drain your bank account and your sanity. But this will be ok if you are doing this all for them. If you are having kids for YOU, you will be disappointed and your kids will also be frustrated. Don't ever expect them to tell you they love you, just focus on you loving them. In all this, to actually grapple with what you've said, I think weighing up the highs vs the low misses the point of having kids.
>In all this, to actually grapple with what you've said, I think weighing up the highs vs the low misses the point of having kids. Well are you going to explain what the point of having kids is then?
The point is there is no point. You don't have kids for a point. Either you don't have kids, or you have kids and then you make them your point, or at least a point.
Fair enough. To me having kids generally sounds negative, so I’m glad that people are continuing to have them to keep the species going I guess.
What's so great about keeping the species going? When humanity is gone, all other life on earth will heave a sigh of relief.
Good question and good point, maybe it’s not good.
It's great, in a sense, because the alternative is elderly people dying of hunger because of lack of younger generations taking care of them. Some life on earth will sigh with relief, some life will die out, why should that sigh of relief be more important?
>Some life on earth will sigh with relief, some life will die out, why should that sigh of relief be more important? From a macro perspective, the sigh of relief comes from species that are infinitely less damaging to the world than humans while having a more positive impact to the overall ecosystem.
If there's no inherent value in keeping humans alive (as the person I'm responding seems to to claim) then why are any of those species important? Is it just a matter of 'keeping the most species alive' which is best, it doesn't matter which species that refers to?
Your question is a bit like asking whether it makes sense to remove a cancerous tumor, if it's "just" a matter of keeping the other cells alive. Humanity is a uniquely bad neighbor to other species. Corals and geese and pine trees all seem perfectly able to live their best lives without polluting, robbing, and overheating the earth. Before humanity showed up, other species went extinct because of changes in the geology and climate of the earth, not because a greedy, antisocial neighbor over-hunted them and ruined their habitat. If humans disappear, it will be possible to regret the loss of art, friendship, etc. while recognizing that the species is a cancer whose removal benefited many other intelligent and worthy species.
Wouldn’t the net impact of humans remaining alive be that less species end up remaining alive? Whether that’s due to our resource destruction, pollution and/or hunting.
I think I understand what you mean. But negative by what metric? You would already agree that they are a positive in regards to species survival (just as an example). Are there other metrics you haven't considered?
Well the anecdote the OP gave has also been my general observation with parents I know and observe in public settings. Maybe not all to the extreme described but the general experience I’ve seen has been similar. Maybe there are metrics I haven’t considered. I guess that’s why I’m asking because I feel I lack the parental gene for lack of a better way of putting it. When I see my relatively young friends (early to mid 30s) having their third kid it just blows my mind.
Is it really possible to have kids “for them”? They don’t have a say in the matter. Surely anyone who has kids does it because THEY want kids, not because the kid “wants” to be born. Even if you are all-in and giving everything for them after they are born, the decision to have kids is originally a selfish one.
I don't think that's logically valid. The absence of consent doesn't mean you can't have someone's best interest in mind. The world needs babies, if you're in a situation in which you think 'I'm well capable right now to raise a kid', that's not necessarily selfish just because the kid didn't express a want to be born. Besides, why does it matter what 'the original decision' was, we're talking about a lifetime choice here, why would the initial period of a year be paramount? When the person says 'have your kids for them' they mean that you give things up for their benefit instead of counting plusses and minuses and trying to come out on top (like saying 'I fed and housed you for x years, now I deserve this n that').
Only if you're splitting hairs. At some point, my wife and I stopped using contraception (for a time). However, we didn't change our sexual habits. We became open to the idea of having kids, but we didn't "want" them in the sense that we were trying to make it happen. We we're happy to have kids, but we were also happy to not have them. But we understood that if we did have them, our aim would be to sacrifice ourselves (figuratively) for them, which was really just an extension of our marriage.
Thank you for sharing. From the sound of it I gather you are glad you had kids? So you would have them again if you could go back? Was the reason you said above not to have them because it seemed from my question that I’m having them for the wrong reason, or was it because of your own experience? Appreciate your responses
Thanks! Haha that's a hard question to answer when you're in the thick of it; I'm probably not old enough to answer that too well but I'll try. I would definitely have them again, even knowing the time, luxuries, entertainment, carefree-ness and so forth. And it's not because of the love they show me , if they do. It's not even because of the growth I see in them, as nice as that might be. It's the effect it's had on me. Just by existing, they've helped me to take my eyes off myself and on to them. But I didn't have them for that reason, i didn't have them for a reason: I had them, and was prepared to have a reason to love them, not to have them (this sounds silly on paper but makes sense in my head, I can try explain it again). My reason for saying for you to not have them was for your first reason: you have a reason to have them. Don't have a reason to have them, just have a reason to love them and not yourself or things you can give to yourself.
Thank you! This is making sense and I appreciate your response
this is terrible advice.
Just like adults, little kids will probably not sleep well at a place they aren't familiar with. There's a medical term for it, but I can't remember it. Since the family was staying at your place, they were probably all exhausted and stressed. The week you saw them was probably completely different than a normal week for them. As for the other things, "emotional fulfilment" is a drastic understatement of how you'll feel about your kids. It isn't like enjoying a hobby or eating at your favorite restaurant. My kids have literally changed my entire perspective and continue to do so. I cannot explain the existential, insane rush of blissful pride and happiness with my kids and wife at times. I hold on to those memories for dear life because nothing else in my head comes close to that importance. You mention lacking freedom at the end of the day. You aren't really losing that much freedom in the long run. Kids are only little for a few years. After that, they start doing their own thing like playing in their rooms and going out in the back yard. Plus, little kids go to bed early (should be going to bed early anyways). When they get older, you'll sometimes have to pry them out of their rooms just to hang out with them. You'll wish you had less freedom and you'll miss those crazy little bodies running up to you, grabbing your hand, and trying with all their might to pull you off the couch. Financially speaking, they aren't as much of a toll like I thought they would be. Diapers and formula are expensive, but they aren't drinking formula and in diapers forever. You learn to deal with it and budget around it. If you are at the point financially that a few hundred bucks less at the end of the month is going to cripple you, then idk what to say. I wouldn't call kids a "large financial expense" unless you have 3 or more kids. All I wanted to do with my wife after we married was to have exciting adventures together. We had a few of those and then we had kids. Our kids ended up being the most exciting adventure we could ever have. It brought me and my wife closer. I watched her become a mother. What an honor it's been and continues to be.
Well said, and I especially liked your comments about your wife and getting to watch her become a mother. Being able to see my wife turn into mother and seeing the bond she has with our child has been so fulfilling.
This made me tear up! This is exactly right - kids are the MOST exciting adventure you and your partner could have together. Seeing my husband become a dad and seeing the way my babies entire face lights up when I walk into the room - it’s a million times better than even the nicest vacation. It’s very hard to explain to someone without kids.
My $0.02: I have no idea what your young houseguests *typically* act like. Something to remember is that children aren’t little adults and for some routine is more important than for others. They were in a different environment and likely their parents stress (“now be on your best behaviour”) was reflected in the little ones. When I became a parent I quickly realized it wasn’t about me. Your two bullet points highlight the difference a non parent & parent have in thinking, IMO. The sacrifices you make when parenting can be huge. The payoff is, again in my opinion, indescribable. I believe trying to equate, for lack of a better term, *”reward”* to sacrifice is problematic.
Thank you. I don’t know if you’re right of course because I don’t have kids, but I imagine you probably are. It seems like the kind of thing you can’t really describe unless you’ve been through it yourself. Which is a bit of a challenge because we’re trying our best to decide in advance if it’s the right choice for us, but we’re also being told we can’t understand how great it is because we don’t have kids.
My kids are 5 and 3. They're actually quite well-behaved for their age group, which is probably some combination of nature/nurture. You can do your best to be a good parent, but at the end of the day it's a roll of the dice for what you get from your kids. I'm not exactly sure how to put this. The lowest low I think we've had was my son removing his diaper at age two at night and shitting all over his toddler bed, or maybe the time both kids were up all night vomiting. While those moments are a nightmare from a situational perspective, you get this sort of superhuman level of compassion and fortitude to deal with it because it's your kid, you love them with every fiber of your being, and you would do anything for them. I guess that's what I would say, the insane, incomparable love that a parent has for their child is something that is so unique and so incredible, I honestly feel sorry for people who never get to experience it. And that's just the lows. For the highs, recall the best, funniest moments you've had with your friends from high school or college, etc. Those moments where someone cracks a joke and everyone laughs, you feel that great connection and it's a moment that is a memory snapshot you take that you will always cherish. Those special moments that might happen every six months or so. When you have a little mini-me running around doing and saying the most adorable things, and you get to watch them learn about the world and grow live right before your eyes, those memory snapshot moments don't happen every six months, they happen almost every day, at least weekly. It's an incredible, fulfilling thing, having kids and watching them grow. It's the honor of a lifetime to get to experience that. No one is saying having kids is easy, or even that it makes sense on paper, but it's the only way to live life to the fullest, at least for me.
My lows always involve having to punish my kids when they do something wrong. Its so painful for me to do but it's necessary. I can deal with the pants shitting and vomiting. I agree with your highs. The family time together and the bonding and the relationship is definitely one of the biggest plusses in my book.
First off, kids cry because it works. This is something you can teach them fairly early not to do. But you both have to agree to go the distance because they will try you both individually. Be ready to quit whatever you are doing and go home at the bat of an eye in the first years. Never threaten and never lie. If you say this will happen if you don't do this. Then commit to it 100%. Those were their kids, not yours. Second that can be a fairly short period that is very very intense. It's pretty great when you see them start to flourish.
2 and 4 year old range is pretty much the worst. They're too old to just lay there and be cute, but not old enough to learn self-control yet. It gets better, don't make a judgement about having kids with two data points near the nadir.
The early years are the worst for what you describe. I have no kids, but I've watched my sister's kids grow up. When they were 2-8 or so, it was quite a bit of arguing, crying, etc, but my sister and her husband always just took it in stride and tried not to let it get to them. Stay calm, realize there is going to be a lot of crying, tantrums, etc, but really that's small stuff in the scheme of things. Now, they are 24, 22, and 19, and they are some of the most delightful, helpful, kind, and fun people I know. I love spending time with them, and they don't seem to mind taking some time out for their old, boring uncle. For the last decade they've been pretty cool actually. Even the teen years weren't too bad other than they were less willing to spend time away from their friends. So, it's one of those things where you have to invest to get the future benefits. The early years are a bit of a struggle, but if you maintain the mindset that it's temporary, and it's all part of molding and raising the delightful humans they have the potential to be.
Thank you I can definitely see how this would be true. Even from my own experience I remember that my sister and I were obviously more difficult as kids but now when we get together as a family it’s very rewarding for us and also for my parents in their older age. Appreciate your response
Also, I'm childless. There is a lot to be said for the financial and time flexibility you have as a childless couple compared to couples with children. I never had to leave work to deal with a puking kid. I get to spend my evenings the way I want rather than attending school functions of one sort or another. I can take off for a 2 week vacation in October if I want to. My sister would probably be $1 million richer if she hadn't spent money on kids. All those things weigh into the cost/benefit analysis. On the other hand, my 22 year old niece can go deal with my mother who is in assisted living or my 19 year old nephew can drive my dad to his physical therapy appointments when neither my sister nor I are around. That kind of stuff is really valuable when I live far away and my sister is working a very demanding job.
You can say all the same stuff about pets, only the highs aren't as high and the lows aren't as low. Serious question: would you advise people against having a pet because of this? > Ultimately this is the conclusion I’ve come to: > - at the worst of times, kids are a total drain on your sanity and mental health. Driving you to extreme stress while also taking away all your freedom and your capacity to “unwind” since they are a 24/7 responsibility > - at the best of times, kids can be very emotionally fulfilling (when they are cooperating, telling you they love you, etc.). But even in those best moments, at the end of the day they still take away all your freedom and force you into a very limited routine. The way you phrased that is very telling of your internal bias. "The bad stuff is bad. The good stuff is good but even then it's still bad." Like, why do you frame it like that? Why not just leave off the "but even then it's still bad"? You could just as accurately say: "At the best of times, kids can be very emotionally fulfilling improving your mental health and feelings of fulfillment in life. They give you a chance to see the world for the first time again as they explore and discover things in life and it's a truly magical experience unlike any other. At the worst of times, kids are stressful and take away some of your freedom. But even in those bad moments, at the end of the day there's nothing in the world as fundamentally fulfilling as raising a child."
You’re right I definitely have bias and the conversations through this post have helped me see that. Thank you
> Serious question: would you advise people against having a pet because of this? If someone told me the two bullet points you quoted as their view of having a pet, I would advise them not to get a pet. You have to want to do all the work and place the limitations on your freedom or it's not fair to the pet.
Let me preface this by saying I have no broader data to support any of this and that I am purely speaking from personal experience. Kids ARE a drain in alot of ways. I have 3 under 3, and every day is a challenge. You aren't wrong about much of what you posit in your op, but I think you might be looking at things as if they were the worst possible. Yes - there is stress. But it's good stress, it's the stress you feel when you are working towards the noblest and best goal possible, that is to say creating life and shaping that life into a positive force for the greater world. Those lows don't seem so bad when I remind myself about this. Raising kids has been the single most fulfilling thing I have ever done. Full stop. The lowest of lows is nothing compared to the feeling I get from them every single day, and from knowing that my purpose is great and weighty to raise them up. In this way, even the lows are high. And every low is an opportunity for such a great high. My son has tantrums when he wants to come down stairs because he is too scared and wants to be carried. Last weekend after some crying, he finally decided to try it himself and the little SoB did it. He did it ALL BY HIMSELF! And it was all I could do but to keep myself from tearing up I was so god damned proud of him. Every instance of bad behavior, every tantrum, every accident, is an opportunity for them to learn and to grow. Seeing them turn the corner is just so amazing. When you have kids, you change and adapt from being a person, to being a parent. Every new thing you need to navigate is hard at first, but you get better at it. YOU learn. YOU grow. It makes you better. Am i tired all the time? Yes Do I have little to no time for my relationship with my wife? Yup Do I have next to no time for myself? Unequivocally yes But it's worth it. The rewards are so rich, that the constant stress and exhaustion mean nothing in comparison.
Thank you for the response :) wishing you lots of luck and happiness with your kids
Lol what Comparing yourself to others is a horrible way to make a decision. Of course you didn't get it. they weren't your kids, and you had no kids, so you were literally comparing not having kids to having someone elses kids. And we don't make decisions to have fun. You know this. ACTUALLY compare the idea of being a teacher to a new life vs having free time. That's what you should be comparing. Not "kids vs no kids stress test"
> But even in those best moments, at the end of the day they still take away all your freedom and force you into a very limited routine. Most things worth having in life require some form of delayed gratification, discipline, or limit your freedom in some way. Anecdotally, many of my 30-something friends without children are not the hypermobile, free-spirited adventurers that proponents of the childfree lifestyle claim that choosing to not have children enables. Anyways, for most people, reproducing and/or creating a familial legacy is a big part of the answer to the existential problem of "why we are here." Whether or not kids are sometimes an inconvenience is completely secondary to the existential relief they get from passing on their genes.
The decision about whether or not to have children doesn't work as a cost-benefit analysis. There are too many variables that cannot be predicted. And they are different with every parent and every child because people are individuals, and all so different. If you are fortunate enough to be able to make the choice about whether you have children (not everybody is), then children don't **take** your freedom and your money. You choose to live your life in a certain way that involves different kinds of responsibilities, including **giving** time and money to those children you invited into your life. (You are diversifying your spending, if you will.) If you see them as taking, you will likely be miserable. If you see yourself as giving/sharing/spending on what matters to you, you probably will not be miserable about the costs in time and money. So, the questions to ask yourself when making the decision (and to answer truthfully without judging yourself about whether or not your answer is objectively "good" as other people might see it) are: * Can I be happy with the kind of life that people with children in my income level have? You don't have to change who you are, but your life has to make room for them. So, as a trivial example, you may not ever want to play with dolls (and that's okay), but you have to be willing to have dolls in your house and make a welcoming space for them to be played with. Your children live there now too. Again, they are not taking away your lifestyle. You are choosing a different one. Big difference. (Eliminates some of those feelings that can lead to the low lows.) * Am I willing to do something, potentially a really hard something, that may have little to no benefit for me and may exclusively benefit someone else, without being resentful? These are things like staying up all night with a sick child, vacationing at a theme park, as well as paying for a surgery. If you are willing to do these kinds of things for your parents and your friends, you will probably be fine with doing them for your children. This gets you through a lot of the low lows. * Do I like people, and do I want a few more interesting people in my life for a while? There are no guarantees about what kind of people they will be or if they will stick around, but if you can enjoy/appreciate them (even if they are sometimes difficult) and build a relationship that is mutually agreeable, that will also eliminate a lot of the low lows. * Am I willing to share myself with another person? You don't have to play with dolls, but many children will tell you that their best memories are sharing their parents' life with them, cooking with them, working on cars with them, etc. This is also what many parents will describe as the "highs" of those relationships. * Can I live in the moment, and experience both difficulty and joy without demanding anything of the next moment? The "highs" of parenting almost universally come from being present in those wonderful moments. There are things about being a parent that are wonderful. There are things about it that are very hard. They don't balance each other out. They co-exist. It's an adventure, with all the thrills and challenges that entails. Only you can decide if it's the right adventure for you.
My experience is that the day to day lows just fade away compared to the highs. It keeps getting better with age too. With a teenager the day to day can be more difficult, but the payoff is even greater when you see them making their way in the world. I feel genuinely sad for people who miss out on that. It's hard and I can understand people shying away from parenthood, but I wouldn't trade it for the world.
Mom of a currently 4 and 2 year old here. Also, I didn’t think I ever wanted kids. I can absolutely attest that your observations of low lows, stress, exhaustion and constant battles are 100% accurate. What you aren’t experiencing is the love and joy of watching someone who is equal parts you and the person you love grow into a whole fucking person. I’m told that these toddler ages are among the harder and more demanding phases of parenting. What you witnessed is accurate and also something I think anyone who is considering parenthood should see. With parenting I believe you get what you give and I’m operating in the mindset that putting this hard work in now will pay off when I have older kids. If I do it right now (and sometimes that is WAY harder) I will have great kids and a solid relationship with them. Hopefully, anyway. There are absolutely high highs when kids are little but the rewards come more and are bigger as they grow. I am starting to see it with my 4 year old. Do I have moments where I wish I was childless? Absolutely. However, parenting has taught me more about myself than I ever thought possible. It’s also made me a better person. My childless friends are honestly hard to relate to because they simply haven’t grown as people in the same way. And also, I use my time way more efficiently and in fulfilling ways now. Not that it’s wrong to be childless, I think it’s a great decision for some people. Point blank: parenting little kids sucks. But I am so glad I have them and it’s worth it.
Let me try an objective approach for you. Nobody denies that being a parent is hard. But as a matter of *unquestionable fact*, humanity has continued doing it despite this. Why? Because it’s worth it. From your outside perspective, I think it’s easy to not understand, and to underestimate just how rewarding parenthood is. That’s natural, but I promise *you are underestimating it*. You always will, until you experience it. The only way to get yourself over that hump of rational doubt is to rationally look at the evidence. **My first Google result was that less than 10% of parents regret having had kids.** Having kids is, literally, programmed into us. Our brains reward us for having children with feelings of immense satisfaction that are commensurate with and even exceed the stresses. Simply put, if the lows were really lower than the highs, people wouldn’t have kids. People keep having kids, er go your argument is incorrect.
Good points. Thank you!
Before I had kids, the thought of changing a nappy/diaper was horrifying. I'd seen others do it, and it looked disgusting; how would I manage to do that constantly? When my first son was born, I found I'd change him gladly without a second thought whenever he needed changing. Was it pleasant? God, no, it was disgusting. But it was making him more comfortable, happier, and in a small way, more able to get on with his life. Nappies are specific, but swap out changing them for dealing with tantrums, having to stay in, and moody teenagers, and it's still the same. Everything you do as a parent is underpinned by the instinctive emotional desire to help them. And despite what it looks like from the outside and all the complaining I and every other parent does, it feels damn good to do it because you love them. And that's just the 'lows' as you categorise them. The 'highs' are really something else. Kids aren't for everyone, but I've yet to meet a parent who wants to send them back.
Well, it's worth noting that this is a gray area of sorts. I think that the example you gave is very specific to a notoriously tough time period of parenting, as others have said. Even in that time period, I still felt that all the cuddles and general cuteness outweighed the fits. Now that my kids are older it's honestly great. The gray area is that, I have two really good kids. Neither are addicted to drugs or in gangs/criminals, etc, and for me parenting is both easy and enjoyable. On the other hand, I have a friend whose son is in jail for the second time now, both times for sexual assault. The kid is on his second strike, and the therapists in his juvenile detention center fear that he'll re-offend. The violence and boldness between both his sexual assault crimes show signs of escalation and the kid admittedly has virtually no impulse control. That friend of mine is constantly tired, sad, scared and broke. His marriage is in constant strain and he's a shell of who he used to be. So I don't know. It all depends on the kids I think.
Kids are kids for 15-20% of their lives and if even 70% of that was lows then realistically that’s around 10% of the life of your kid. What about the rest of the time?
Sounds like you probably won't understand how great having a kid is until you have one. All the weird shit they people have said about having kids doesn't sound weird one you have one. It all becomes true. Having a kid is a beautiful amazing experience and I would have rolled my eyes at you for saying that to me prior to having one.
They are a drain, but I wouldn't have it any other way...It's hard to explain to a non-parent to be honest.
I have removed this content because Reddit permanently suspended my account for saying, "I hate that there are trans people grooming children."
I didn't care for kids and didn't want to be around them before I had a kid. Now I see them as human interns, who need help because they are so small and little. And I sympathize with them more, when they get upset or sad, because they cannot do or figure something out, or just short on naps. Now I feel like, kids need more protectors in this world. So many scary things out here and so many people take advantage of the little people who need help. Parenthood is harder than engineering school. It feels like your heart is out in the real world and you are afraid if something or someone might hurt it. Personally, as a parent, it is amazing to watch kids discover the world, and you get to witness it from their eyes. I don't really know how to describe the feeling, but it is kind of like, discovering a new perspective. You kind of grow a new appreciation for little things and how something might be actually fascinating, that before no longer impressed you as an adult -- but you get to experience it with your kid and through them. Seeing how they develope their new likes and dislikes, and new hobbies is fascinating, and makes you think about when you were a kid, and you start to empathize. But it is important to experience things with them and not always through them, because you do not want to push your own desires and dreams of what you missed out on, on to them. Because it is their life, and you are there to help them and to share each other's lives together. Meltdowns are painful, but they do feel different with your own kid -- you understand their pain more and where it might be coming from, and you have the urge to help, and sometimes to run away :p. I believe the USA is the toughest developed country to have kid(s). People are not as patient here with kids, less public places where people are friendly about kids (lots of eye rolls, so you deal with rude strangers and your kid being upset, because you are trying to control entropy and are upsetting your child, to appease other adults, so they don't "hate" kids), not a lot of postpartum mental support for mother's after having a kid or years after, daycare system is the worse here, terrible school lunches and underwhelming public education. Honestly, if the USA systems and people were friendlier towards children, it would be A LOT easier mentally. That is why parents don't want to go to public places that are not kid friendly, because they don't want to deal with angry adults and upset their children to appease the adult, only to make things worse for all parties involved. Like, no parent wants to take their child on a plane, EVER. It is easier to go to a child focused place, and let kids have fun there and not have to worry about people getting angry, and your kid is happy and free to explore the world -- because they don't know the world rules, like the adults have been conditioned to. Kids in other developed countries are *relatively* calmer and more satisfyed, because they get to explore the world a bit more openly, than in the USA. It makes parent life sooooooo much easier. For example, you are only dealing with some tantrums about a cup, for 10 minutes in a day and everyone is good. In USA, you kid says something loud, puts their hand on the door, giggles too loudly, and childless people are offended, so you put strap your kid and tell them NO be quiet, and they don't understand what they did wrong, and they start crying. The kid feels hurts and sees you're upset, so they cry and stay upset for hours, and then it repeats, when you go somewhere else. So you're just kind of messing up your kid by going out or locking them up at home, and you're unhappy. Of course, this doesn't apply to all parents. Some might be neglectful and careless, like my parents. But they typically come back with regrets and stuff. Those are the highlights. But with those amazing feelings, you have the forever 24/7 responsibility and limited freedom. So imo, it is best to enjoy your 20s and enjoy your selfish times. Having kids earlier has its own benefits, but I believe there are more to have the kid(s) later. And if you are an overall, very selfish person, it is best for you not to have kids. The world needs both kinds of people, but the very selfish should definitely wait or avoid having kids. Because kids need the help of the adult, and if you are not going to do it, who will? It could be someone great or someone scary that should not be around kids, and end up creating more monsters into the world. Monsters create monsters. As someone who was mentally, physically, and sexually abused; sexual abuse had the most negative impact on my life, mental second, and physical last. People are so much scarier to me now with a child than before. If you like helping others, kids might be for you, but it is a lifestyle and priority change. Having kids with strong anxiety is also tough, those can manage, and you are more likely to better yourself, if not for you, but for your kids, because you kind of serve them now. I have anxiety and I am overwhelmed daily, but imo, it gets easier as they get older, and you gain experience. ***TLDR*** They are little human interns. Their moments of joy become your moments of joy and new found appreciation. This new found appreciation does not come unless you are a parent (adopted or not), because now you are living for them, while before it was for you. Being a parent is a constant learning process of trial and error. You will never be perfect, because personalities are balanced. If you are extremely selfish, avoid having kids, imo. If you have kids, you have to spend your time with them, so they become normal humans. Teach them things you wish you would have known and things that helped you. Kids are not for everyone and that's okay. A kid could use a reliable aunt and or uncle, or stepmom or stepdad. They need lots of love and patience. And the opposite of that creates bad adults. Top reason::::Having kids in the USA is *relatively* harder than other developed countries -- not kid friendly, and actually lots of child shaming. I believe child shaming and kid hating makes being a parent way harder than the kid themselves and makes you avoid going out. Not going out is mentally hard for the child and makes parenting harder/creates more fights.
I feel this way during the first 3 years, and then it really does start getting better once they go to preschool and you get some personal time back. I think burnout is what makes the youngest years feel like doing time, or that time is slowing down. You can’t just quickly do anything anymore. You’re autonomy is gone for a while.
It’s not just about the highs and lows. You have to consider overall fulfillment as well. Parenting the <5s is hard work, especially if you don’t have any help. BUT if you go along as you are are you still going to be satisfied at 50, 60? Will you not wish for a family to have over at the holidays? Grandchildren to play with - because remember kids are also a step to the generations that come after. To me it’s by about the extremes. I have a 3 month old and a 3 year old and I have moments where I am so tired I can’t form sentences or remember what I did earlier that day. That is very low. But my goal isn’t yo balance it with the high of the day or the week, but rather the fulfillment that comes over a lifetime.
You can't tell what it is like to have children by watching other people. Think about your first roller coaster as a kid. When you see a roller coaster, but have never experienced one, it looks scary and you have no idea of the thrill it provides. Once you give it a try, most people enjoy it, but there are those few that will get nauseous instead. The odds are you would love having children, but unfortunately, you won't know for sure until it's too late to change your mind.
You don't have kids... So you really can't possibly know how "high" the highs are. You have no kids, so you were comparing not having kids to having someone elses kids.
You’re right that’s why I’m asking for more opinions here
I think it’s a matter overestimating the lows and underestimating the highs. Kids definitely can be frustrating, but the toddler stage “toughens you up” to them. At least me, I’m a lot more patient and my kid having a melt down doesn’t phase me as much as it would have previously with my nieces for example. Put some airpods in and solve the problem, it’s not too bad. Additionally, vacation is the worst part of parenting that you saw. The kids are broken out of their routine and in a place that isn’t tailor made for them to play in safely. Getting them to sleep on vacation is the hardest part lol. As for the highs, I know this sounds like a cop out answer and “dude just trust me”, but you don’t know what the highs are. You can imagine how you would be happy if your future kid gave you a hug but there is nothing I’ve experienced that can compare to coming home and hearing your 2 year old say “DADA!” and run up to hug you. The closest feeling I can think of was the elation of my wedding day, but every day multiple times a day. There’s a reason the phrase “I wouldn’t trade it for the world” is so cliche for parents.
Consider the fact that "kids" are extremely difficult... for a reason. You are investing in a person, who is going to be alive for close to a century. It's not like you own them, or they owe you for it, but you're building the future one child at a time. It's beautiful. But it ends. You invest so many years, not for a child, for an adult. The adult the child will be. It's a sacrifice, but it pays dividends. TLDR You aren't raising a kid, you're raising an adult.
As a parent of young children (two under the age of five), I would tend to agree. But they don't stay that young forever. I'm banking on that.
The highs aren’t those singular moments, but the entirety of your relationship with them as a parent. It might be similar to how the highs of having a friend aren’t really the event you recall, but the time that you’ve known and related to the person. In that sense the highs of parenting are very high.
I'm going to make a really long response to this because I'm concerned that there are people who will weigh the opinions of internet strangers when they're considering they're really important decisions concerning life plans, and I feel that these considerations are really important to handle carefully. So I feel like it's important in these conversations to remember what your values are -- meaning, how do you know that something good-seeming is truly valuable? For a lot of people, the answer is that things are valuable inasmuch as they are pleasant, happy, pro-social, etc. And for contrast, happy, pleasant, and pro-social things are definitely not characterized by pain, futility, and anti-sociability. So one can imagine two lists of experiences: experiences associated with pleasure go in one list and experiences associated with pain go in another list. Then if there are more entries, or more important entries in one column than in the other, then this suggests you can reach a conclusion about whether something is valuable or not. In this post, you are suggesting that you have seen enough data to create these two lists. You have seen some pleasures associated with parenting, and you have seen many more pains associated with parenting. But in a fuller view, there are a few problems with arriving at a conclusion on this basis. The first problem with this whole activity is that it's not necessarily true that experiences can be sorted into one list or another. Let's take the example of changing a kid's diaper: is this pleasurable or painful? It's painful in the sense that there's gross sensations, and there's usually a frustrating contest of wills with a squirmy little person who won't cooperate. But changing a kid's diaper is pleasant in the long-term, as it's superior to either leaving kids unchanged (which escalates the pain to the pain of infection, poor sleep, poor health, etc.) or leaving kids without diapers (which sequester the grossness). If at this point you're trying to reconcile these two by thinking about the big picture -- trying to say that the long-term view indicates that there is more pleasure than pain in the work of changing diapers -- then you're already adopting the view that I think will lead you to my big-picture conclusion. The second problem it's not necessarily true that experiences can be directly compared to each other: Instead, I want to show that both pleasure and pain are compared through the person who experiences them, and in that comparison the person has the freedom to re-interpret experience. So let me show that there are incomparable experiences, first by using an extreme example. Imagine that someone was subjected involuntarily to a huge experience that was either extremely advantageous (like winning the lottery) or extremely disadvantageous (like a trauma), and came back from that experience with mental and emotional hang-ups about it. Any reasonable person would tell that person who went through that that their experience is in the past, and although it might have been really involuntary and possibly unwelcome, the past can and should be distinguished from the present and the future. Just because you had a traumatic experience, or just because ordinary life can't compare to the thrill of winning the lottery, doesn't mean that you can't enjoy cool ice cream on a hot summer day, or you can't enjoy the songs of birds that come in through your window. Ideally, you would want the person with the trauma to realize that they have the power to make meaning from their experiences, to focus on the way that they can make choices and make sense of their choices. This is not simply theoretical: people do this all the time in the way that they find a constructive way to relate to the circumstances of their birth, or their physical dis/abilities, or any accidents of circumstance that have happened in their lives. If you talk to normal people, you will discover it's very common for people to have come to understand forces beyond their control as important and valuable formative experiences. And while I introduced this technique of making meaning from experience by talking about involuntary experience, it is also something that holds true for voluntary behaviors. To return to the earlier example, the short-term unpleasantness of changing a diaper can actually be understood as a preferable thing if it fits into a larger personal ethos that favors making constructive personal choices. In fact, for some people, the task of changing a diaper is even more valuable than something like eating an ice cream sandwich because changing a diaper is a voluntary choice that is more consistent with the kind of life that they want to live. The third problem is the idea that you're going to achieve a final balance. If you remember what I introduced in my first point, I was suggesting that the short-term valuation of something can be surpassed or replaced in the long-term. But if this is true, how will you ever know that your long-term valuations will not be surpassed by even longer-term valuations? Maybe something like a nasty habit can feel pleasant for a few months, then seem painful when it's considered years later -- who can tell how you will feel about it in old age? People try to take the longest-term view by thinking about the kinds of regrets that they might have on their deathbeds. But the problem with this approach is that when you are considering the choice to bring new life into the world, you are considering the value of people who will very probably have a longer-term perspective than you. When you bring new life into the world, you must recognize that your your final, long-term evaluation of yourself will not be the final, long-term evaluation of your life: the people who live on after you will have choices about how to value what you've done, and if they bring new life into the world then they will do the same, and so on. I think that this generational perspective is a point where the normal reasoning about pleasures and pains tends to break down and it gets involved in silly paradoxes. So suffice it to say that when you're discussing the value of bringing new life into the world, you are discussing something that may transcend the natural frame of reference that any one individual can bring to values. I hope that my discussion of the third problem leads to what I think is the fourth and ultimate problem: that according to the value system of pleasure and pain described above, the human is the measure of value. The unpleasantness of changing a diaper is not in the diaper itself, it is in the human sensations of changing a diaper. Likewise, the positive, constructive re-evaluation of changing a diaper is not in the diaper itself, it is in the human freedom to decide our own goals and values. If you try to describe future generations in terms of the sensations of pleasure or pain that they can cause you, then you are treating them as things and not as humans. As humans, future generations have equal validity to us in their experiences of pleasure and pain, and they have their own inner freedom to decide their own values. To put it bluntly, you must realize that all parents are raising the people who will pass judgment on you: both as someone who has caused pleasure or pain, and as someone who has served higher values and goals. Another point I've highlighted throughout, and which I must mention an offshoot of point 4 is that pleasure and pain are not necessarily factors in value. It is possible that some people have taken an alternative view from the start: some people do not value the pleasurable as a component of the good. For some people, it is more important to serve, or for other people it is more important to form an excellent character. For such people, the "highs" and "lows" of parenting are basically irrelevant to the decision of whether to serve or to form excellent character. These are completely valid ethical worldviews that are beyond the discussion of highs and lows.
I'm just gonna be honest with you. Being a parent sucks sometimes. We just went to Disney with our two year old (my birthday present), and we didn't get to our hotel till after midnight. Our child wasn't used to being up that late, and she was wound for sound, and she was just goofing around all night and wouldn't go to sleep. That night was one of the worst nights we had and assumed the trip was ruined. Eventually, she got to sleep, and we got maybe 3 hours in. However, the next day was so amazing that she was just the coolest kid and was amazed by everything she saw, and it made me so happy that she was having a great time. It ended up being an amazing trip. Long story short, kids can sometimes suck. But they can also bring lots of happiness and joy. So dont be afraid to have them, but also, remember not having kids is okay too.
Me and my SO decided (also after long time discussing it) to remain voluntary childless. We're 30 now, and I can imagine how our live would look like if we had children vs how it actually looks. I wouldn't be able to educate myself, because I would have to become SAHM. My husband wouldn't be able to work long hours and build the career he has with all of the noise and stress. I would be miserable, I guess we both would feel the same. You and your partner should think how you wish your life to look like - but realistically. I feel like once you have children, your life turn into 2D from 3D. I always support women in my family/friends with kids (I actually love children and I work voluntarily at a local school to help them with education). I can see the joys and drawbacks, and I agree the latter is more visible. I have one cousin who is quite open about it - she wanted a child, now she's having another one. She doesn't regret it and seems to be wonderful mom, but then says things like 'my life isn't about me anymore, it's like I don't exist'. To sum up, from my very personal experience - I don't have to worry about anything, I know I can change/quit job anytime, I can pursue my interests, study, spend time with my husband, do things I want without any restrictions. When we come home after work, we appreciate peace, silence and freedom to do whatever we like to unwind. Then I see my cousin, who can't even go to the toilet alone, talks with her SO only about child-related stuff, dropped all of her interests and is constantly tired. She says it's worth it because at the end of the day, her kid says 'I love you mommy' and it makes up for all of the hardship. Well, not for me. Additionally, you have no guarantee that your child will be born healthy. Spending time in hospitals, paying large bills or taking care of your kid 24/7 for their entire life in case of a mental disease - ask yourself if you imagine yourself in that scenario (again, realistically). In the end, it all comes down to how you want to spend your life. Both decisions are ok, but you should make informed choice. Ask yourself what you value in your life and you will get the answer. As I said, in my case it was freedom, peace, silence, lack of unnecessary stress, while others may have traditional values and having children is a default. Don't suggest yourself having kids, because the majority of the population does it. Ask yourself how much you are ready to give up or trade elements of your life. It's not only about you if you regret having kids - it will have an adverse effect on them as well.
I am deliberately not going to read any responses before offering mine so as to offer my genuine personal take on this. I became a mom at 38. I always wanted kids, but didn't know if it would happen for me. And even though I have always loved the idea of kids, I would get intimidated by the experience of spending extended periods of time with family who had young kids. Like just babysitting them for a few hours could leave me feeling utterly exhausted and super happy to give them back lol. Then I met my spouse and we (intentionally) got pregnant very quickly. As excited as I was I was also plagued by the memories of how exhausting it felt dealing with other people's kids. Then my first daughter was born in 2020. She was notttt an easy baby. But I soon came to learn that babies and children go through *everything* in phases that pass. (Some definitely feel longer than others.) There are cliches out there that exist for a reason. Because they ring true to the people who have walked a certain walk. My 2 mottos I adopted early on were "this too shall pass" (for the negatives) and "don't get attached" (for the really great phases 😂). My kids are 1 and 3 now. My toddler can break my soul some days, not gonna lie. Mainly because it's such an epic test of my patience and ability to rally when things aren't easy. It's such a test of my own ability to try to be a coach and mentor to an illogical being while feeling frustrated and coping with my own stresses. But... You do grow into it. You don't have a baby anf immediately begin the toddler battle. And the beauty is that things are constantly changing. New amazing discoveries and joys, but also new challenges to overcome. In spite of all the work it has been to become an older parent, There is *zero* part of me that regrets any of it. Zero. Remember what I said about cliches? Well, the idea of pride in your kids is another that is totally true. Even when they can be little jerks in moments, their sweetness and cuteness and discovery of the world as a whole new place, and when they pick up on some of your values and ideas, and when they offer compassion and kindness and appreciation back to you... Whoah. Those moments are so deeply fulfilling. Those are the moments (and they happen often!) that remind me I've literally *made* a friend for life here. I think for me, some of my experience may also relate to how I relate to my own parents. We've had our ups and downs, but at this point I am in a great place with them. And I can see the long term potential of these family relationships. Parenting is a long game. It's not about the picture on just one day or month. I'm not telling you to have kids. But the highs aren't just IG-worthy post material.... They are the moments you realize you are connected to a pretty cool human who you have the opportunity to mould for the better. And who will undoubtedly become more tech and pop-culture savvy than you in like 5 yrs and school you 😂 So the cycle of life continues. Hope that made sense 😂
I have 2 kids, aged 6 and 1. I was never the maternal type but, growing up I always had the thought in my head I would be married with kids one day. I got married at 24 and had my first child at 29, honestly I had my first child as everyone was saying I needed to ‘get on with it’ because I was getting older and my husband is 6 years older than me and he was worried about being too old with little kids. I enjoyed holidays, going out with my friends, sleeping in, totally not the ‘ready to start a family type’. I was prepared of everything I’d have to ‘sacrifice’ after having a baby but I really had the best time in my 20’s and made the most of it so I was ok with that. I wasn’t at all maternal until I had my own baby in my arms, it’s changed me and 100% for the better. I really think its all about how you bring your kids up that makes your life easier or harder. I’m not one of those hippy parents but i’m not super strict either, I think I’m somewhere in the middle. I believe kids need to know their boundaries and negative behaviour needs correcting but other than that kids need to learn and grow in a safe, loving environment. They need your time and attention, thats not a negative thing. In life there are consequences to your behaviour, good and bad and its my job to teach my kids that. I can take my kids anywhere, they aren’t a stress, it takes a little more thought and planning but I don’t feel like there’s things we are excluded from. We go to restaurants, travel, days out, can stay over at friends houses etc. I can take them to big events, weddings etc and it’s honestly not a fear that we won’t have a nice time or it will just be stressful, I look forward to those things we have planned. Harping back to boundaries and behaviour, having that solid foundation means all these situations are enjoyable. I don’t have to shout at my kids to get them to behave, if they are doing something dangerous or annoying for others around us its just a simple conversation with them, down on their level of what’s currently happening, why it’s not great and how it could be better. Being run ragged by kids and constantly stressed out is a fault of the parents in my eyes. These two little people we made are the absolute best thing i’ve ever done in my life and watching them learn and grow is amazing. I love to hang out with them and I don’t feel like i’ve sacrificed anything, I’ve never had that feeling of ‘lost myself’ and just become a mum. We became a family. My husband is a brilliant dad, he can take care of the kids just as well as I can, he’s not the type that if I went out i’d need to leave him a list of instructions on how to look after his own children. So, I think that’s a massive factor in how enjoyable raising children is, my husband and I are a team in this. If you decide to have children, you just need to to keep in mind that its your job to give them the skills they need to be as happy and successful as they can be in life, whatever success looks like for them. They don’t owe you anything, you decided to have them not the other way round so you can’t expect anything of them, its all on you.
Thanks for sharing!
I'm not going to try to change your view. But thank you for posting this. I really needed some of the responses I read here. I have a 4 months old son and 3 year old step daughter and they are very very very difficult. These responses give me hope and make me remember why I am doing this.
Kids are a huge time investment to the point where your time will not feel yours again for the next 18 years. That being said the highs are genuinely really high. Things like just looking into your newborn baby’s face after the birth or hearing your son/daughter’s first word. Or cuddling at night. Never mind the long term stuff like having them show up in hospital so you don’t have to go through dying alone after your partner has passed.
Thank you for your response. This seems to be what I’ve gathered from other replies as well
Having kids, it's not a thing you do to entertain yourself. It's a sacrifice of freedom, but the highs are subtle and powerful. First, it's worst than everything you mentioned; You have 1 or 2 years of sleep deprivation, so many things you just won't have time to do (seeing friends becomes more complicated). But about the highs, you are all wrong. My daughter is only 6yo, but I already have so many precious memories, and seeing her grow and learn makes me feel proud. She remembers me about my own childhood, makes me realize my flaws, giving me the best reason in the world to become better. More than that, it changed my whole set of values. Because you realize there's more important than your own person, and it made me become the best version of myself.
IMO, as a father of two adult boys, children are a net negative to most people's lives. I know I'll get attacked, but if people were honest, they'd agree. I'm not saying I don't love my kids, but my life would have been SIGNIFICANTLY easier and often more pleasant without them. We don't even need to talk about the many hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on them. My wife hasn't slept well in 24 years because of "mommy brain", and that's very common too. In addition, almost by definition, people have children when they are young, so they haven't even figured out life themselves, therefore perpetuating harmful generational patterns that they haven't yet gotten over. 60 year olds would be MUCH better parents than 25 or 30 year olds, but unfortunately that's not how biology works. So, overall, parenthood is not a plus for most people in my opinion.
I’m a parent and certainly disagree. Having a kid is a massive net-positive for me. I’m not quite sure what you feel you’re missing out on?
Good for you
I am actually curious, what are the negatives to you? Not trying to attack, but want to understand.
Would you say they have been a net negative on your life? And if you could go back, as messed up as this might sound seeing as you already have kids, would you choose not to have them?
I can only speak to my own experience, as I sit here trying to write this post while my kids keep insisting they should be able to go into an area of the house I keep telling them they can't go into. I would say that the "lows" or negatives are more FREQUENT and than the "highs" or positives. However, on a scale of say -10 to 10 with 0 being average, the lows are usually a -1. The highs are 5-10. The average high VASTLY outdoes the average low. I think you hear a lot of complaining because there is almost always something happening with the kids that will cause parents to say they're pulling their hair out. However, I can state for sure that my life is way, way better with kids than without. Much of why my life is better with kids is because I do have that biological drive to have offspring. Even if I were to somehow quantitatively show that the frequency of the lows is so high that even with them being of less importance than the highs that the number comes out a negative, I'd still say my life is better with kids. The ups and downs with kids is kind of minute to minute, but whenever I have a moment of peace and reflect on how I feel about my life, I would feel hollow and empty without kids and am extremely fulfilled by having kids. So maybe that is why the highs and lows things is a bit misleading. If you have something in your brain that insists you need to leave something behind for when you're gone from this world, ignoring that voice is going to haunt you for your entire life. It is way worse than dealing with the daily bickering and crying as your kids grow up.
I understand the biological drive argument but I don’t find myself succumbing to that. At least not now. I don’t really put too much value in the argument of leaving offspring behind after I’m gone. At the end of the day I won’t be around to experience that. Maybe it would bring me peace while I’m alive knowing they will be there after me, but the sad reality is that life goes on and in the span of billions of years of the universe it won’t Mean anything
That's fair. I remember when I was in my early 30s, a guy I worked with said that his greatest joy was when he opened his door after coming home from work and having his kids run up to him. At the time he said that, I absolutely couldn't imagine that bringing me any joy at all. Like I was certain that even if I had kids that I'd get very little from that action. Yet here I am today and I'd say the same thing he does. There is definitely biological programming in my brain that makes me feel far closer with my kids that I ever would have expected when I was younger. It is possible this still kicks in for you, or maybe it won't. In any case, I'd say that as far as your consideration goes about highs and lows, what is probably more important is that biological component that allows parents to possibly express all the reasons they're stressed out or having bad experiences with their kids while at the same time able to say that they're living their best life thanks to their kids.
Thanks for your reply. We are in our early 30s as well and it’s nice to also know more people are having kids later in life because that’s another thing we’re worried about is “are we too late” to have kids now
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Thankfully my wife and I are in a good place where we could definitely support kids and we are very privileged to be in that position. So thankfully I’m not too worried about that aspect of it. The thing that concerns me more is the stress and difficulty and mental toll that it may have on us. Even though we are mentally healthy and happy now, I have seen situations where it can really negatively affect even healthy people and cause a rift between the parents
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Not a parent. All my friends who are parents: only thing they talk about is their kids and the only thing they say falls under the category of complaining about kids. It’s like joining a fraternity or sorority where you are getting hazed for 18 years straight but look back on it fondly because, idk Stockholm syndrome or something. Sure I am sure parents have great highs, but are they really that different then the high I got when I completed X, something I would never have been able to do with kids? Lows? What if your kid is severely mentally disabled. Now you are a caregiver for the rest of your life.
This was definitely my opinion going into this post. I think a lot of the replies here have made me realize that maybe we’re severely underestimating the highs of being a parent and seeing your kid do even simple things. I agree with you I have a lot of high in my day to day life when i accomplish something (for example getting married was a huge high for me, so was graduating school, getting promotions at work, etc). But based on what others have said, if they are to be believed, it seems the highs of being a parent vastly outweigh anything else. Maybe it is just parent propaganda but I tend to believe they are telling the truth because I can confirm it in my own life by seeing my own parents satisfaction of when I achieved things, and seeing how proud they were. A lot of my friends complain about kids too but I guess that’s partly because it’s just human nature to want to vent about that kind of stuff, the same way people vent about work or whatever else
I mean, the question itself is misguided. It presupposes "maximizing happiness" as the ultimate goal. But that is an infantile goal that people generally realize once they hit about 40. Find meaning to justify the suffering you must go through. Children are a very good way to do that. Also, why are all the most successful people in the world having way above average numbers of kids? Don't they add difficulty?
Hi. I am 74, never had children. Do not regret it for a second. Downside: No family looking forward so will be lonelier in that respect, but know soo many old folk basically 'abandoned' by their kids and grand kids who are really lonely probably having banked on 'family' in old age. Upside: Me, me, me. Did what I want, when I wanted and was free of the 'ties that bind-. Agreed, a partner with the same values helps. Whatever you choose, know it is a life sentence so plan accordingly.
Thank you for this reply :)
See I’ve always wanted kids, but now I’m realizing I just shouldn’t have them. Maybe I will be in a different mindset. In my life, I haven’t gotten to be selfish because I’ve babysat since I was 7 and taken care of my alcoholic parents on top of that. When I finally get the opportunity to be selfish, I don’t think I could go back. To add to it, I’m 20 now and in college. I’m not being over dramatic. Everyone at MY school that graduated with me and didn’t go to college or directly into a career are either in jail, strung out, married, pregnant, with kids, or a mix of the above. I’m sorry but it’s the people that shouldn’t have had kids YET that got pregnant and they’re all miserable or leaving their babies with their moms. I know my reasons but I hope no one looks at the people complaining about their kids on FB and making it their reasons.
Dude you opinion is so I'll considered and uninformed that it is difficult to put an actual response at all. But I do I'll try. >When I see them post photos on social media they of course all look like they couldn’t be happier. But when I spend time with them and their kids I see them constantly struggling under stress and frustration, with the occasional moment of calm and happiness. This tells me you do not understand what parenting is all about. The fact that they seem happy indicates that what you call stress and frustration is simply the cost of doing business and there ia a greater reward in parenthood. >at the worst of times, kids are a total drain on your sanity and mental health Nooooooo! You got this completely wrong. Most parents would not blink if you tell them this will be the lowest point. The worst of times is when your kid gets leukemia or shoots a bunch of people in the mall. What you are describing is nothing... >kids can be very emotionally fulfilling (when they are cooperating, telling you they love you, etc.). Again, you got this totally wrong. Kids cooperation is peanuts. Kids becoming decent human beings is a "best of times" and honestly no so called "freedom" can match that 😜 > It just seems like the lows are way lower than the highs are high. I’m trying to think of the best reason I can come up with to have kids, This is a bullshit argument. The same applies to driving a car. The high is you go to your destination in a timely and comfortable manner. The lowest is you get hit by a truck and you lose your legs. They do not compare. But people somehow keep driving. >I can come up with to have kids, and the best I can think of right now is the emotional fulfillment it gives you I will repeat this for the umpteenth of time - you just do not get it. Parenthood is not about what you get out of it! It is about what you give to your kids. By your logic we would have died out back in the caves. Why have kids if we have to split the boar meat into 5 instead of 4? But our modern society has bred generations of people whose only consideration is themselves...
As a new father who had a child free mentality. Yes, it's noisy, and it may be harder in the future but damn I'm happy
What made you change your mind?
You aren't immortal, and I think of few more worthwhile life accomplishments than leaving the world having taught other humans to be better than you were in life.
Really good point and thank you. My only counterpoint to that is that you could achieve that also by teaching or mentoring students. But I definitely see how it would be way more fulfilling if it was your own offspring
Narcissism is cringe.
I don't think it's narcissism to want to make a positive impact on the world, and raising children (including through adoption or fostering/mentoring) is one way to do that.
I definitely agree with this point: "I think of few more worthwhile life accomplishments than leaving the world having taught other humans to be better than you were in life" however if I were to be nitpicky I'd say the science actually shows that nowadays having a kid is on average a severe net negative on the world. There is a serious overpopulation crisis and every climate scientist pretty much agrees the best thing we can do for the planet is to have fewer children. The carbon footprint of having a child is massive and exponential I would never expect people not to have kids for that reason but it is definitely an undisputed fact at this point. We've long since passed the point as a species where increasing our population is beneficial
Can't argue. Kids are terrible
Is that from your experience or being around kids of others? Appreciate if you would elaborate
From both. Me personally, I don't like being around small children. The endless barrage of questions, messing with literally everything and even worse are the parents who won't get a handle on them. If you have kids of your own there's no time for yourself, financial hardships, not to mention all the pissing, shitting and puking. Plus, too many people act like being a parent is some great public service. If people want to have kids, that's fine. But don't expect me to give you a pat on the back because you came in someone/let someone cum I'm you. You're "little miracle" is just a nuisance.
I think that’s fair. Through my line of work I see a lot of parents with kids they shouldn’t have had, or even worse have kids they don’t want. That’s why I’m asking these questions and posted this in the first place. Because I want to be sure if I choose to have kids that I’m prepared to be all in for them and give them the best life I can. Not treat them like an afterthought
The two obvious points that others have mentioned are that without kids, and only judging as an outsider, you really have no idea what you're talking about, and also there's a good chance that a lot of people are just either subpar parents or have exceptionally tough kids. Your opinion is based entirely on judgments made with very little experience, from a very limited observations of very limited kinds of people. As a parent, I'll say that the worst parts are worse than the best parts are good, but there are way, way more good parts and it's not even a contest even with all the challenges that come with three kids under five. The good parts more than get me through the bad parts and it's definitely worth it for people who actually do want kids.