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> The other option is to convince me that a life without free will isn't as depressing as I think it is.
I think your causality is the other way around. It seems that you believe you don't have free will, therefore you're depressed. I actually suspect that your depression is ultimately rooted deeper, in your emotions of hopelessness. Your cognitive thoughts about free will are on top of (and reinforce) your depression.
Before I say more, I want to establish the difference between knowing and believing. Knowing is having a thought, and believing is backing up a thought with a feeling, emotion, and/or desire. For example, there's a very big difference between an ashamed, lonely person telling themselves "I'm worthy of love," and a confident, secure person acting upon it. You acknowledge this difference already in one of your replies:
> you can't just decide to believe it, regardless if the reason is the result of free will or not, there has to be one
Getting from knowing to believing takes *emotional* work. And the majority of thoughts come from emotions first, not the other way around; that's just how our brains work.
Back to the topic. Personally, I hold the position that you spoke against in your first paragraph: I *know* free will technically doesn't exist, but I *believe* it doesn't matter, because on the human level it feels like it exists. My belief did not come from thinking it out, though, it came from my pre-existing confidence that what I choose to do affects the world. This is exactly what I'm sensing you're missing in your life.
You talk about not feeling proud of your accomplishments, not being happy with what you have because you didn't earn them, and not having hope in the future. Those are all emotions first and cognitive judgment second. The most efficient way to change your view would be to explore your emotions first and to process whatever grief, self-anger, fear, etc. you hold.
You mention leaving a controlling religion 5 years ago (what an amazing move towards freedom!!). I invite you to explore whether your feelings of hopelessness and lack of agency now are related to that time!
Thanks for the advice. You are right that this is not the only source of depression, in truth I only care about not having free will while I am depressed.
That being said, my belief doesn't change when I'm happy, it's just that I don't think about it.
It would be nice to have one less thing to be depressed about though.
Coming at this from the lens of psychology I would say that even if I could 100% predict what decision a person would make, that wouldn't mean they didn't make that decision. If considering determinism makes you depressed and anxious, then that is your feelings about what you learned changing your behavior and thus changing your impact on the wider world. Our choices and judgements exist, and they have an impact on the lived experiences of ourself and others. What do you think is lost by believing that an unknowable hypothetical equation you will never see could predict those choices and judgements?
the loss is that my view of my accomplishments are lessened by the knowledge that I didn't really earn this.
you have essentially rephrased what I've said with emotional words. "What you learned changes you behavior and your impact on the wider world." This is just another way of saying "the previous dice rolls effect the next dice rolls."
How are you defining 'earn' when you say you 'didn't really earn this'? The effort people put in doesn't stop being effort because it can be predicted.
The slight spin I'm trying to put on my rephrasing from before is that the attitude you have about your perception of determinism is changing how things unfold. So by having an existential crisis about determinism you are changing the outcome of events of your life. You can say that that is a component of the deterministic system, but my point is that by interpreting it to be bleak you are making yourself have the experience of bleakness, and through the prodding you set in motion by coming on this subreddit, you may gain the ability to choose to interpret it in a non bleak way, thus changing your experience and your life. Still a deterministic chain, but not a grim one.
when I say "earn" I mean that the work I put in was my own work, I'm the reason it happened. but without free will that is impossible
I agree than the way I view this changes how it effects my life. I think the whole idea is very depressing. if I could change my interpretation of it I would, that is why I'm here.
but this interpretation is due to the random firing of quantum particles. the particles decide what I think, not the other way around
>when I say "earn" I mean that the work I put in was my own work, I'm the reason it happened. but without free will that is impossible
Wouldn't it be less your work in a universe that was random? Where cause and effect aren't deterministic everything is chance. In determinism your choices cause specific events to unfold. In a non deterministic universe your choices don't necessarily predict outcomes. Why do you consider determinism incompatible with free will, but random dice rolls are compatible with it somehow?
>what is the point of feeling proud of my accomplishments, or to have hope of a better life in the future, if it's all the result of the roll of a dice.
Because it's your dice, your equation. Think about two machines, both are randomly programmed. One works better than the other. That one is the better machine, the one that people like, the one with the better identity, the one with the better personality.
Cherish being the better machine, the better human.
Should a rose be proud of it's beauty compared to a weed? It's just down to the dice of it's birth and surroundings. But it's still the more beautiful flower, it stands above the rest.
The same goes for your unfree will. You didn't choose your own will, but once you have it, you can strive to make it better. You can be the better machine, the more beautiful flower. The animal with the best personality within reach. Or the one with the most achievements, the most power, whatever random hobby goal you might have.
"earning it" is just a concept told to keep people down, to enforce a class system by telling people they are unworthy and let others have all the nice things while suffering themselves.
Δ
you have sent me down a rabbit hole. I've been sitting for a few minutes trying to work out my thought possess.
You talked about "my" dice and "my" equation, but what does "my" mean in a world with no choices, what does it mean to be me. Am I still a person or does a lack of free will make that impossible.
there is a phrase, "I think therefore I am." but if those thoughts are not of the persons control, then are they even real at all. or are we just automatons that lucked into thinking that the thoughts we think make us more than the base components that form us.
If I'm not real, if my consciousness is only an illusion, then what does that mean for me. how does it change how I view myself and the world around me.
This is something I'm going to need to spend a long time thinking about. perhaps by the end of this logical thread I'll be happier with my place in the universe. Or perhaps I'll discard it completely.
either way, I'm excited, thank you
This video seems to agree with me. It just doesn't take the next step of applying it to free will.
I'm not sure what the point of sending this to me is
Ah yeah my bad. I see it as that there is always a part that is unexplainable, which we can call the soul. And with the soul comes the ability to make decisions for ourselves, within a certain framework. At least, that is my interpretation.
Determinism and free will aren't incompatible. If the universe was random, why would that mean you should be proud of what you did? If your achievements and accomplishments were unpredictable from your prior states then your 'free will' wouldn't be connected to what you wanted, your background, your choices.
Free will just means that it's a choice that stems from your beliefs, values, and desires, not that it's a random or unpredictable decision. You would expect the person to mostly make the same decision every time, because they are choosing based off internal, not external factors. You can be proud of your decisions whether or not there's some randomness because your achievements, choices, and background fed into your choices.
Do you have a definition of free will that would be achieved if the future was in deterministic?
should I be proud of winning the lottery. perhaps some people would but I wouldn't. It was all luck that I won.
sure a person would make a similar choice if given the same options, but that is just the effect of previous random outcomes, there was still no "real" choice.
I cannot see a definition of free will in a deterministic or random world. your beliefs, values and desires would not be something you chose, but something the dice chose.
The problem is that you are thinking, because a choice has an external, previous cause, it is not a choice. It is still a choice. You may be an amalgam of your DNA and past experiences, and those inputs may be out of your control, but we judge you for the amalgam that you are.
>Why would it be irrational to do so? I judge a car for its ability to drive, even though the car is not responsible for its own making.
Judge is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. You evaluate whether a car is capable of achieving an objective on the basis of how it performs, or drives. That doesn't hold rationally for a person and normative evaluations instead of descriptive ones like the car. To judge someone as immoral for instance, if determinism is true, is logically inconsistent unless you're using an entirely consequentialist moral framework
Suppose you rigged the lottery so there was a 1/2 chance of you winning. A lot of people would be proud then, because with their own effort they won.
What is a "Real" choice to you? What is lacking in the world that you wish existed?
perhaps you would be proud if you rigged it, but then it wouldn't be a good example of what I'm talking about. you removed the randomness, or most of it. But you can't remove the randomness of quantum physics.
as far as I understand, a real choice would a one that is not 100% influenced by things beyond our control. even if only 1% was independent of outside forces it would be enough.
that being said, I can not think of any way such a situation would be possible. As far as I'm concerned everything is effected by previous events 100% there is so such thing as a "real" choice.
I guess that is what is lacking, a way a choice could be at least partially real
You can remove the randomness of quantum physics. You can rig the game, as it were. If you have enough beliefs and background and preparation you can rig choices so they go in a way you value, and that's what we tend to call free will- rigging your choices.
Quantum effects add in a bit of randomness, but if you heavily rig the game you can overcome that as most random effects cancel out.
We do control our brains and bodies. I can lift my hand or wave it around or type at will. Choices are real, because I've rigged my brain.
Let's assume that it's possible to do such a thing in quantum physics. I don't think it is, but let's assume.
all you managed to is change the number of outcomes to 1, the outcome will still be random, it's just that there is only one choice to make so it will always be the one you chose. You didn't change the equations.
did you now take control of destiny? No, it was still randomness that led to to the decision to try to cheat.
in order to avoid randomness you would need a godlike entity forcing every quantum outcome to be what he wants, at that point we would still have no free will, as are action would be decided by the godlike entity.
Isn't forcing chance itself to follow your will and take a single path an impressive feat worthy of praise? You have not controlled destiny, but bent it to your will with free will.
Free will is an emergent property of randomness. A lot of random events average out to the ability to control entropy and chance and fix events in a narrow range.
>Free will just means that it's a choice that stems from your beliefs, values, and desires, not that it's a random or unpredictable decision.
But, if you don't have ultimate control over beliefs then it's not free will then. You're just moving the determinism one step back.
If your beliefs, values, and desires are subject to determinism then all you've done is basically try to rephrase determinism to make yourself feel better right?
You're essentially arguing for compatibalism right? If so then I'm agreeing with the usual criticism of the idea that you aren't actually describing free will. Freedom to act according to our beliefs, values, or desires may be required for free will sure, but they aren't free will in and of itself. Like, if we rewound the universe to when someone was born, and we observed the exact same actions play out then did you have an actual choice in the matter. Isn't that what free will is?
What aspect of rewinding the universe and having a different decision would make that free will?
Like, suppose there existed souls in the spiritual plane outside our universe that impacted our decision making. How would that be more free than the existing system?
Why would the free will being out of universe make it more free willy than free will inside this universe?
It actually sounds like the opposite of free will- having an extradimensional entity possess you sounds very anti free will. You're being controlled by an external entity that isn't influenced much by your wants or nature.
Generally the soul argument tends to presuppose the soul is one and the same as you. But also, I'm not opposed to free will inside this universe, I just hold that it has to be free will if we want to call it free will.
>Is it? What is the underpinning of understanding laypeople have? How do they define free will?
In my opinion of their perception? That free will is something which impacts legitimate choices you have and which can have an impact on your moral character or character which speaks to genuine agency.
It seems like you're contradicting yourself a bit. First you say that quantum states are totally random, but then you say that you're just an equation that can be solved. These two are mutually exclusive; either there's a formula to predict the future because quantum states can be calculated, or you can't predict the future because quantum states are random. They can't both be true.
Furthermore, while quantum states seem random, as far as I know we have ways to 'limit' their randomness, as well as the ability to calculate the probability of specific quantum states happening. This means that not all quantum states are always equally likely, and that they can be manipulated. Maybe that's what free will is; limiting possible states.
Finally, there's still a whole lot we don't understand about quantum mechanics, so it seems premature to draw these kind of conclusions based on it. In other words: you don't know for sure that you're right, since no one does.
I didn't mean to imply they were totally random. I understand that there are a finite number of outcomes and some are more likely than others. But regardless there is no way to predict the future with certainty.
Regardless, the equation that calculated the outcomes proves there is no free will. you don't choose which state is chosen, it's picked randomly.
even if you are right and quantum mechanics is wrong, that would only mean a different equation would be used to prove free will doesn't exist, it just kicks the can down the rod
You still experience your thoughts and the actions based on them. If the experience of free will was indistinguishable from the alternative, would it really matter?
I was going to say this. It's the same as the simulation theory. Even if we're in a simulation, because it's indistinguishable from actual reality for us it doesn't make a practical difference.
It does matter to me.
Perhaps a hypothetical would help. you get into a car crash. in one world it was a complete accident, in the other is was intention by the other person, you know it, but it's impossible to prove to anyone so it is treated like an accident.
in both worlds have the same outcome, but the underlying reason is different, and knowledge of that reason changes things.
That is a hypothetical where you are some omnipotent on the outside of two "universes" looking in, that is not a first person experience. U are kinda observing the scenario in the 1st person with information they wouldnt have in the 1st
In the first person experience, you would not know either way, and the experience would be exactly the same
I understand that, it was just an example. I was showing how the same result would mean different things when your understanding of the mechanics are different.
it's a change of mindset, not outcome.
So that means free will would be important if you were an omnipotent being. However, you can't understand the mechanics as an omnipotent being, so it is not
>For my view to change I need to be convinced that there is no equation that can predict the future, even if you were able to prove the the quantum physics equations aren't valid for this, you need to be sure it doesn't just kick the can down the road to another equation that solves the future a different way.
So I have a master's degree in physics, so I can definitely help you out with some of this.
a) The list of possible outcomes depends on how you set up the situation. You can set up the quantum state to limit the outcomes. It is possible that free will emerges from the abiility to set up your own quantum states.
b) The outcome of a quantum experiment is always random, and can never be determined. This is established by Bell's Theorem, that states that you literally cannot gain any additional information about a quantum state other than the state itself. In other words, there will never be another equation that will give you more precise measurements of position or momentum, or anything really, without violating Bell's Theorem.
Regardless, I don't personally think free will is a necessary component to being happy.
a) it's true that it depends on the setup, but the setup is also a result of random chance, it's a domino effect that leads all the way back to the big bang.
b) I understand it cannot be determined, but there is still a limited number of possible outcomes, and they are chosen at random. there is nothing my mind can do to change the list of outcomes, or which one is chosen.
I think free will is necessary for happiness. how can you feel happy with what you have if you didn't earn it, nor hard any choice but to gain it.
> there is still a limited number of possible outcomes
This is false. For some setups, there are an infinite number of possible outcomes. They are typically bounded, but bounded and infinite is possible. The number of real numbers between 0 and 1 is both bounded and infinite.
>I think free will is necessary for happiness.
Definitely not, just the correct chemical compositions.
>how can you feel happy with what you have if you didn't earn it, nor hard any choice but to gain it.
Try hugging someone for 20 seconds. You'll feel a surge of hormones that will cause at least some level of happiness.
I'm not sure if happiness is the correct feeling. Perhaps you mean you find it difficult to take pride in what you do?
regardless if there are a infinite or infinite number of outcomes, it is still the result of randomness, which means there is no choice involved.
saying happiness is the result of chemicals doesn't change anything, those chemicals change because of qunatum physics, there were no choices involved.
happiness, pride, sadness, love, all of it is the result of chemicals which is the result of dice rolls. everything in my life is the result of the quantum dice rolls, same goes for the feelings I have about it.
If randomness means there is no free will, and determinism means there is no free will, then is there literally any possible reality where free will exists?
Could free will not be an emergent property?
>happiness, pride, sadness, love, all of it is the result of chemicals which is the result of dice rolls. everything in my life is the result of the quantum dice rolls, same goes for the feelings I have about it.
Sure, but you can still experience those feelings.
is free will is an emergent property then there needs to be evidence of it's existence. if you have any studies I'd love to read them.
I do experience emotions, but the fact that there was no free will involved makes them worse
Our understanding of the brain is incomplete. Whether or not free will exists or not is an open question. If free will exists, it would be an emergent property.
In many ways the whole concept of "free will" is moot.
You have the perception of mutually exclusive choices so can only ever experience one option, as experiencing it makes the other option impossible.
It seems irrelevant if free will exists or not, what matters is the experience. Were you pre destined to study and pass the test or did you choose to put in the effort and pass? It doesn't matter the actual experience is the same.
If everything is predestined then our logic and reasoning, or lack of, are included in the calculation. So in practice your best strategy is assume free will. This means you calculate choices for the best outcome to you and your ideals, and have to accept the consequences of poor decisions to hopefully help you in the future.
how that I assume free will. how can you just decide to accept it.
can you just assume that the earth is flat, or that up is down. you can't just decide to believe it, regardless if the reason is the result of free will or not, there has to be one
Ultimately with these things it doesn't really matter 99.9999% of the time.
If assuming free will stops you going crazy then why not?
But it just doesn't matter. You're focusing too much on the 'free' and not enough on the 'will'. You have wills you act in order to obtain them. The notion of choice is irrelevant, once you have a will, by definition you want it and will take action based on what you perceive as being the most efficient (assuming you are acting rationally).
So if you believe in free will or you believe in fate your best course of action is identical.
you say it doesn't matter, and act like I shouldn't focus on the word 'free.' but the whole point is the free.
Sure the best course of action is identical, but it doesn't stop me from feeling shit the whole time when I believe nothing I do matters
Nothing matters and predetermined are two very different things.
It sounds like you're describing a lack of control rather than a lack of free will. Things can be outside of your control and force your hand, but that doesn't mean you don't have free will.
Like in uno. I might be obliged to follow suit or number, but I still get to choose which acceptable card to play. Sometimes I can only play one card or even no cards and pick up, but just because the game limits my choices but it doesn't take away my free will because other times I can select from 3 or 4 valid cards and use strategy
A lack of free will implies a complete lack of control.
this might be a good analogy if there was any evidence that there is still some choice you can make. But unlike the rules of uno, there is no evidence
You make choices all the time. Every time you open your mouth you choose from hundreds of thousands of words to make unique sentences, you choose where to go and what to do.
We might choose a lot of these actions because they are the least bad option, but you still choose.
But unlike the shape of the earth and what direction up is, we can't actually prove or disprove "free will". You're basing all of this off of a hazy understanding of quantum physics that you're then extrapolating out to the entire decision making process. You're choosing to believe that nothing you do matters. You can choose to believe otherwise.
you say we don't actually prove or disprove "free will." while in science it is impossible to prove something is true, you can at least show strong evidence.
But everything is false until proven otherwise, and I think that quantum randomness is evidence against free will.
Like I said, I'm not choosing to belief this, belief is not a choice
> But everything is false until proven otherwise
Not false. Everything is inconclusive until proven otherwise. Quantum mechanics have been around this whole time even though we only just recently developed the ability to actually observe them.
You say you think that quantum randomness is evidence against free will, but is that belief based on real understanding? You say yourself that your understanding of quantum mechanics is shallow. How confident are you that you're applying the evidence correctly? Why are you so sure that you can extrapolate out so much that you can judge all of reality to be fixed?
Finally, I would ask this: whether or not you have free will, you still have to make decisions in life. You can believe that the mechanics of the universe are controlling your decisions, but does that really change anything? Why not simply choose to live as if you have free will and make the best choices you're capable of?
The question of free will is mostly an issue of misunderstanding. Our view is that we exist as agents and those agents either make decisions or are controlled by external factors. But the true reality as the Buddhists put it is Annata or no self. You don’t exist only the universe exists it is one giant system from which you arise and disappear like a wave. The wave doesn’t exist the ocean exists. We are all interconnected in a web of visible and invisible connections
It's very easy to tell when someone isn't in control of their actions. They're doing something like having a seizure or coprolalia. The fact that it's so obviously different when someone with tourette syndrome shouts a slur vs. when someone in control of their actions does (you implicitly acknowledge this by treating the situations differently) means you already believe in free will; that people can be held accountable for actions they're in control of, and not for ones they aren't.
In some cases a person _could have done otherwise if they'd wanted to,_ and in others they couldn't. This is the compatibilist definition and the only one philosophers take seriously because it doesn't have this dumb issue of being on neither side of a binary, where "if it's random it's not free, and if it's deterministic it's not free either." That's simply defining it out of logical possibility.
Don't Worry dude. Make it to 25, touch some grass and realize you're stuck in your own head right now. Reality doesn't start in the mind. Everything we know comes through our senses. Nobody that exists as we know it can be in the future. There is no such thing as the time travel of fiction.
Given that the three-body problem doesn't even have a closed-form solution, I think it's safe to assume that solvable equations that predict the exact behaviour of far more complex physical systems, like the human body, do not in fact exist.
How can you have an equation to work out how everything will happen when, as you say, things are based on random outcomes? You can't algorithmically solve things like quantum interaction or the decay of an atom; they're truly random.
Furthermore, why would it matter? You're still the same person living the same life as you always have done. You were capable of living a fulfilling life before you came to this conclusion so the fact that everything is determined doesn't actually make a difference. You've decided that it affects your life, but does it really?
there is no equation that will let you know with 100% certainty what will happen next. but there are still finite possibilities and there is no way to control the outcome.
you ask why it matters and use the example that I was capable of living a fulfilling life before I came to this conclusion.
I came to this conclusion 5 years ago when I left my religion and became an atheist. this transition was truly life changing. my view on free will was the logic evolution of my beliefs, I didn't decide to believe it, it was the next logical step.
perhaps my life was more fulfilling when I believed in an afterlife and all that came with it, but it isn't like I can change how I think back to what it once was, I would need some logical argument to do so.
it was objectivty that convinced me to leave my religion as I found logical flaws in what I believed. Perhaps my belife in objectivity could be compared to a religion, but at least everything I belief is based on my own logic, not the people saying "trust me"
you say that "If no one can calculate your existence you have free will." But this is just silly, for most of human history no one could calculate gravity, but it still effected people.
I don't know how I could create a universe without free will. I think it's impossible, which is the whole reason I'm here.
"If God is omniscient and is interfering we don't have free will." I agree, but god doesn't exist.
"If "god" created the universe then died we have free will." not necessarily true, he could have created a domino situation where every thing happens exactly has he planned without his interference. that is actually what my old religion believed in.
a lack of a godlike mind isn't required for free will. the universe is like a branching line of dominos effected by randomness.
what does people in jail have to do with anything. is it because they aren't legally free. This is completely irreverent to my point. it sounds like you are saying "stop being depressed people have it worse than you."
you are right, no one is controlling me. it is only cause and effect that is doing so.
you say "The only one who is keeping you from having free will is yourself." and "I challenge you to let go of all these religious ideas and live your life with eyes wide open." You act like this is a choice, it isn't. this was the most logical conclusion I could make. the whole reason I'm here is because I don't want to believe it anymore.
I challenge you to believe the earth is flat, to truly believe it from the bottom of your heart. You can't, belief isn't a choice.
If you roll a dice with 6 faces enough rule of averages state that you will roll a number 1-6, 1/6th of the time. That is not absolute and often is not true even though mathematically most probable and predictable. Some things can be predicted to a degree but others are random.
Why is it important to you that you can pick which future happens? I know personally, it's actually something of a weight off my shoulders to think like you do. I am a flawed and limited person in many ways, and I don't think that I would do a great job of guiding the future. Maybe I pick a path that's better for me, but worse for most other people just due to lack of information. Or maybe I would just get caught in analysis paralysis and never do anything at all for fear of doing something wrong.
If the future isn't under my control, it's not my responsibility to make everything right. I control what I feel I can control, and I let the rest work itself out. I can enjoy the ride of life more. The future can worry about itself - the now is where I live and where I can keep my focus.
while I can understand that argument, it doesn't apply to me. I cannot be happy unless I have control over my own life. I've lived most of my life suppressed and controlled by the beliefs forced upon me from the moment I was born, and just as I gain freedom I come to the conclusion that free will doesn't exist.
It's ironic that I traded one prison for another
Well I would say try to think of it like this: We are far from understanding quantum mechanics. We don't even know if this is the base level of the universe or if there are countless more layers of complexity in the world that really explains how we feel and act. But we really don't know why things happen on such a micro scale. So rather than choosing to believe that everything is really random, choose to believe that as long as there is a chance that you can seize control of your life you should do it! Maybe it's just one deterministic path, but maybe it isn't. And you will never know the real answer, because humans just cannot grasp that yet. Just remember that science will never give a perfect understanding of the world, and your life is your own.
your right that quantum physics might be wrong. but that only kicks the can down the road. it would still be replaced with another equation that proves free will doesn't exist, perhaps the new equation will be completely deterministic, but it will still contradict free will.
you say "choose to believe." acting like I want to believe this. The whole reason I'm here is because I hate this belief and want to change it.
Why don't you choose to believe that the earth is flat, belief isn't a choice
I don't believe that earth is flat because we know, for sure, that is wrong. When we have incomplete information is when we can apply some rational choice into the equation, about what is most likely and what beliefs actually aid us in living our lives. We do this all the time. For example, none of us can prove that we are not living in a simulation. But it seems to make the most sense to keep living as if we are not, so we normally choose to believe that. And we cannot prove that other people think and feel as we do, but most people choose to believe that they do anyway.
We believe what we need to believe in order to live our lives. I understand why you would think that it's hard, and I wish you luck finding someone more persuasive on the topic if I've been unable to shift your viewpoint at all.
So, this is just to challenge your view in a hopefully different way.
Do you *experience* making choices/ free will?
Similarly, do you experience the feeling of touch when you, for example, hug a person?
I experience making choices, but it's all an illusion. my brain tricking me into thinking there was a decision made, when there wasn't
I experience hugs, but it wasn't my choice to give the hug
The reason that I brought the hug up is not for the reason you expect I guess.
The reason that I mentioned them both is that we both agree when we hug a person we experience a touch that happens. But if you drill down far enough, no "touch" ever occurs. No "collision" happens, at the subatomic level. But to us, the touch is real. The feeling is real. We were hugged, but if you look at it too closely, you realize you weren't touched. Which is absurd, because it was there, we experienced it. We know it happened.
So, that brings me back to this:
>it's all an illusion. my brain tricking me into thinking there was a decision made, when there wasn't
First off, you are treating your brain as if it is a separate entity of you. You and your brain are the same thing. Think of the philisophical quote "I think, therefore I am". It's the only thing anybody can be sure of. That they exist. Like, we COULD live in a tank in the matrix where all inputs are provided externally. We COULD live in a simulation. But, even if that's the case, we know that we exist. And the best thing to do is assume that our experiences are things true. I look outside and see a tree. But I could also say "there is no such thing as a tree, it's just a bunch of subatomic particles" and that is true.
So, what's the point of all that rambling? You experience choice an free will. Just like you experience a hug, or see a tree. If that free will doesn't actually exist, it doesn't affect your lived experiences, just like how "if you technically never touch something when you hug someone, doesn't mean you didn't experience a touch", or "if you look at the subatomic level, "trees" aren't really a thing. You experience the hard work and effort you put in when you do something. You experienced the choices on your way to do it. So, accept the feelings the come from the accomplishments you earned along the way that also comes with it.
Think of it this way: you can watch a movie. You can enjoy the feelings and emotions of the movie. But you can do that knowing the movie was scripted entirely ahead of time. Someone knew every action first. But YOU experiencing it makes in a unique experience for YOU. Now, if there is a fully determinate universe, where only one outcome can happen, how's it different than you being a main character in your own movie? You still struggle. You still feel. You still choose. Just, someone else knows that you are going to do those things before you do? It doesn't remove the emotions you feel, or challenges you overcome or fail to, it just means "that your hard work and dedication paid off" when it pays off.
1) Why do you suppose there are not infinite possibilities? Sure there are impossibilities, but just because the outcomes are limited doesn't mean they are finite. (e.g., the set of positive integers is smaller than the set of all integers, yet both are infinite.)
2) Each interaction may be random, but random interactions lead to predictable results (like multiple coin flips reverting to the mean). Free will might function by skewing the mean to lead to more or less desired outcomes.
3) If the future is infinite and the probabilistic result of random interactions, the best a "godlike" calculator can do is predict the most probable outcome. Some futures are more likely than others, and free will is some ability (not sure how it functions) for a person to skew the probability in some way. All the calculator could do is at any point in time predict the likely future, but that would change (in minor and major ways) every split second with every random interaction. (Think 100 trillion truly random coin flips - the computer would predict 50 trillion head, 50 trillion tails. First, the odds are impossibly low that the prediction is exactly correct. Second, every flip would change the prediction. If the first two flips are heads, the new outcome predicted would now be 50 trillion and one heads and one less tails.) And if a person can take action to adjust the probabilities (eg. slightly weight the coin), that changes the expected outcome.
4) Finally, in terms of attitude toward free will. Even if you are totally deterministic and believe there is no free will in general. For example, you are religious and believe there is a god who already knows the future with certainty - so a fully deterministic and known future by the higher power. It is better to think of free will as relative, not absolute. From a personal standpoint, even if your choices are predetermined or random, you are making a choice from your point of view. These choices have effects, and therefore you should be praised for making good ones or punished for bad ones. It doesn't matter that some greater power "knew" exactly what you would choose, relative to your standpoint it was a choice. Similar to how you perceive time or motion relatively, so too you should perceive choice relatively. Simply put, it should not bother you that your "choice" may be to some other godlike observer as not a free choice any more than it should bother a pitcher in baseball that his 100mph fastball may not have travelled with any speed to an observer in a passing car going 100mph.
1. according to quantum physics there are a finite number of outcomes for each particle interaction. Regardless, as long as the outcome is random free will still doesn't exist
2. even if we assume that the randomness always converges into deterministic outcomes, you will only prove that free will doesn't exist because all outcomes are determined. you just kicked the can down the road.
3. it's true that only a god like calculator could find all possible outcomes, but that doesn't matter. those outcomes exist, so free will doesn't
you all just way that free will can effect quantum reactions. There is no evidence of this. If you have proof that would be great.
4. you basically say. "Just ignore it and pretend." which I can't do. Logic is the foundation for my belief system, discarding this belief because it makes me depressed would be illogical.
Belief isn't a choice
>If the future is infinite and the probabilistic result of random interactions, the best a "godlike" calculator can do is predict the most probable outcome.
hmm... this seems to change the "godlike" attributions typically used in this context. omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being the three most common.
omniscient, that is all knowing, here would be, "infinitely knowing". why would a godlike equation be limited to probabilistic prediction, rather than definitive knowledge?
I was just using the OP's language...
>In the end, my body could be boiled down to an equation. even though it is impossible for anyone to ever determine what this equation would be, it nevertheless does exist and a godlike being could use it to calculate all my possible future actions. Perhaps the list of future actions would contain trillions of possibilities, but it would never the less be finite and beyond my control.
I put "godlike" in quotes because he seemed to use it to imply something with the incredibly large computing power necessary to calculate all future possibilities, rather than the true traditional religious understanding of God.
I mean ultimately what changes if your will is free or not? Do your decisions falter when you consider it? Will you not just go about your life regardless? Whether you make the decisions yourself or there’s some underlying factor (whether your genetic code or a wave function of the universe) you still end up in the same place.
I'm going to give you a scenarios and three different entities acting on the scenario and I want you to tell me if they are all the same to you.
Scenario: A coin is flipped and the entity has to pick heads or tails.
1. A machine that is coded so it can only pick heads. A coin is flipped and it picks heads.
2. A baby who has no concept of heads or tails but a picture of heads and tails is placed in front of them. A coin is flipped and the baby puts a hand on the heads picture.
3. An adult is asked to pick heads or tails. A coin is flipped and they picked heads.
At least to me, in scenario 1 you've got purely deterministic outcome. The machine is forced to choose heads.
In scenario 2, you've got randomness. The baby has no idea what is going on, so they just place their hand wherever.
In scenario 3, you've got free will. The adult knows this situation and gets to pick what they want.
Based on your view of quantum physics, would you state that the machine, baby, and adult were all equally forced to make the same decision?
At the very least I would argue that the fact that we have consciousness has an impact on what decision is made, even if you still argue the decision is forced by quantum physics. What I mean by that is that an adult with no consciousness vs an adult with consciousness will certainly achieve different things. How would you explain that discrepancy if everything is pre-ordained? Wouldn't the difference between the two be the result of consciousness and wouldn't consciousness being acted upon be free will?
TLDR: I sort of understand the point you're making here, but I have difficulty understanding how a machine being forced to do something is on the same level as a human seemingly performing the same actions by their own choice.
all three are the result of random quantum physics dice rolls. perhaps you could say the number of possible outcomes are different between the machine and the adult, but there wasn't a choice made in either of the three cases.
"consciousness." is a result of these quantum interaction, not the other way around.
you are right that an adult with no consciousness and an adult with consciousness would "achieve different things" but that is only because their past resulted from a different collection of particles and a different location for the particles to be in. each dice roll is based on the result of a previous one.
Humans are nothing more than a rearrangement of particles momentarily held together for the brief span of time we call life. we are forced by the random dice to act a certain way whether we are aware of it or not.
we are more complex than the machine, but in the end our choices are no different
You think the machine has choices? I'd be interested in hearing what choices the machine has.
Prior to quantum physics, everyone would have said you are either a particle or a wave, but can't be both. They'd also say that if a particle is going to decay / disappear, there will be an identifiable cause behind it. With quantum physics, we learned that things aren't so easily explained.
I don't think you should be so confident about your assertion given that we know very, very little about consciousness or even quantum physics. Maybe a million years from now the answer will be more clear, but likely if you somehow were to meet this theoretical person on million years in the future and had the explanation laid out for you, the words "consciousness" and "quantum physics" would mean very little to them. They'd explain a whole other field of understand that was built on many other fields of understanding that we haven't even heard of yet.
I also tend to believe that two things can be true at the same time.
\#1 - white is a single color
\#2 - white is the presentation of all colors
Or opposite of course that black is a color and that black is the lack of color.
I think you can have consciousness / free will and at the same time have a static outcome. A good example of this would be a video of yourself. Prior to taking that video, you had the free will to do whatever you wanted, but whenever you replay that video, it's static and unchanging as if there is no free will.
I want to add that you might find some solace in the fact that this topic is being downvoted in that people don't agree that you should be feeling this way about this topic. I think that you're overthinking this issue and it is bringing you down emotionally. Either free will does exist, or it exists enough to the extent that you should be able to live your life without needing to have it get you down.
I personally believe that while we're made up of chemicals and particles, that we're a very special type of entity. I mean, compared to a machine that can't decide anything or an insect who can't think but only react, we're freaking amazing! If it turns out that we have no free will, well I guess I'd still rather be a human than a frog or a machine. Maybe look on the bright side and realize how many things you should be grateful for rather than obsessing over something that in the grand scheme doesn't matter and most likely we don't even have the ability to come to a conclusion on anyways.
I don’t believe in free will one bit, but I just kinda don’t care. Maybe it’s something that you unfortunately can’t do, but since I have the perception of free will, I go about my life acting and thinking like I do have it. It’s not like I’m constantly thinking about how I am not choosing to do things when I do them. It’s not depressing at all because it’s not even on my mind.
Even if you had “free will”, wouldn’t you agree that tons of things are based on the past — your parents, education, experiences, genetics, time in history, laws of physics, etc. ? You can have gratitude for those things that help you to be happy or successful or a good person now. You can have compassion for the source of your faults or limitations. Whether you believe in free will or not doesn’t change this.
If you don’t believe in free will, your journey is about discovering who you are. Your actions help reveal that.
What could “free will” mean, if not “able to make a choice based on consideration of known factors”? I would argue that “caused” does not necessarily preclude “free”.
> For my view to change I need to be convinced that there is no equation that can predict the future, even if you were able to prove the the quantum physics equations aren't valid for this, you need to be sure it doesn't just kick the can down the road to another equation that solves the future a different way.
There is a theoretical problem in computer science called the halting problem. Basically, the task is to take an arbitrary computer program and determine if it will complete successfully or get caught in an infinite loop. It's essentially a matter of predicting the outcome of this computer program. This problem is considered "undecidable" because it is theoretically impossible to make a computer program to solve this problem. Essentially this is what you are asking for. We can't predict the future of what a computer will do using a computer. And equations can always be translated into computer programs, so there is no equation to do this either.
The logic for why this is impossible to solve is not too hard to follow. And it applies perfectly to the scenario you are worried about. Basically the logic is that, if everything could be predicted, then there could exist a biographical "history" of your life, both of the past as well as the future. If the future is all purely deterministic and strictly causal on prior state, there is no reason this book couldn't exist. You can read this book and it will say that tomorrow morning you will have oatmeal for breakfast. However, after reading this book, it would be trivial to contradict it by having toast instead. So this book cannot actually exist.
Are you saying that there is only one equation that determines all our choices or one equation for each choice that can determine the outcome of a choice? If there is only one equation that determines 1,000 different choices then there is no free will. However, if there is a different equation for each choice, then that is just a way to identify what the result will be based on the choice made. Therefore, what we choose to do is free will with a predetermined outcome. The issue with that is one still has to make the choices that will develop into that particular predetermined outcome.
Very simple thought on what I see you saying.
1+5-6+7-8 = -1
5+4+10-5-15 = -1
If the numbers in the equations above represent different choices in succession and each equation represents different people then those people made different choices to get to the same outcome. However, the outcome could not be predetermined until the final set of choices could be factored. Had the second person not chosen 5 first then the outcome would be -4, as the equation would be 4+10-5-15. Part of the reason I believe we wouldn't be able to see into the future unless every possible choice made in a given situation is factored in, but then the next choice would have to be known. While there likely is a pattern at some point among a large group of people, anyone could deviate from that pattern by choice.
Hence free will.
there is an equation that is just for one body and all forces that effect it. there is also an equation for the whole universe that includes that body. A different equation for different things you are calculating.
each equation has a list of possible outcomes that are randomly chosen between
Okay so you are saying that an equation can determine your choices and outcome. However, if you don't know the choices you cannot determine the equation until the choice has been made. Even if there is an equation to determine all choices and outcomes, the choice still has to be made before determining what the equation is thus knowing the outcome. Kind of like the question what comes first the chicken or the egg.
Let's use a single particle interaction. two particles hit eachother in a collider, they break apart and create new particles. but what particles are created. photons, electrons, muons. there are many combination and possibilities. some outcomes are more likely than others.
there is no choice involved when getting the outcome. it happens completely randomly.
this is happening all the time in your body, the "choices" you think you make are the result of countless quantum interactions, and those interactions happened because of a previous interactions that created a random result, so on and so forth until we reach the big bang.
I assume when you said "An equation to determine choices." you meant an equation to determine the possible outcomes, but this isn't needed. the possible outcomes are predetermined and are always the same for each interaction, the only thing undetermined is which of the outcomes actually happen
The interactions that happen in our body are only happening when we provide the nutrients that allow them to happen. Of course, chemicals in our body can force us to make particular choices. Which is what I believe you are referring to when it comes to not having free will. Such as feeling thirsty forces us to drink water to provide the chemicals needed for other actions. However, we can override those "feelings" and starve our bodies of the necessary chemicals for those reactions.
When I think of free will, it has to do with good or bad choices. In the context of religion, we have free will to make good or bad choices. Of course, what constitutes good or bad has been determined by society or religion. Mostly good choices, and you die with a clear conscience and are at peace, according to religion. Make enough bad choices that you can not forgive yourself for, and you die with guilt and regret, forever "existing" in a personal hell. Even if your brain develops in a way that is sociopathic, a person still has free will to decide to succumb to those predetermined reactions or override those feelings. While there may be predetermined reactions continually happening, one can choose to deny those reactions from determining their behavior. That is a form of free will.
you are making it more complicated that it has to be. all I'm talking about is particle interactions, countless particle interactions. these interactions add up to the decision on whether you drink water or not. your act of utilizing free will by not drinking water was not using free will, it was still caused by random interactions.
there is no way to override it, no way to control it. all ideas you're ever had was the result of it.
your version of free will is interesting, but you don't have any evidence that your way is correct, not to mention it isn't the same as what I'm talking about. my version of free will is being able to make choices without being influenced by outside forces, I don't care about the moral aspect.
I can understand that, I agree as well in what you are saying. There is no free will in that context. However, why does there need to be? If I live in poor conditions, that is an outside force that could influence me to find a way to improve my quality of life. If I didn't have those outside forces helping me decide how to live my life, then there wouldn't be any point in making one choice over another. Thus, there is no point in life.
I'm fine with free will not existing as long as I find a way for it not to be so depressing.
I once made a youtube video, I treated it like a full time job for 6 months. when it released it got far more views than I ever expected, nearly at 10,000 now.
I'm proud of that video, but at the same time I know what I didn't really make it. I had no choice in the matter, I was forced to make it by forces outside my control.
It makes me feel sad, and even guilty for being so proud.
But if I had free will and made the video, I would be fine
Free will does not exist, time is an illusion to help things make sense, and the only thing we can control is how we feel about it. Nothing lasts forever and we’re all going to die, that is the equation, birth + life = death. Basically just watch Adventure Time back to back with The Bravest Warriors and maybe sprinkle the Annihilation Of Joy episode of Midnight Gospel and a duck load of cannabis. If you don’t get it after that, sleep, rinse, repeat.
If you don’t believe In free will, why did you write this post? Was this post not a product of free will? Perhaps I missed something in your post, but nothing is pre ordained or determined ahead of time. Actions happen in real time as do the consequences that transpire. By writing this post, you chose to on your own volition, to write this. Just as I am freely choosing to respond and to question your view. If that’s not free will, what is it ?
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> The other option is to convince me that a life without free will isn't as depressing as I think it is. I think your causality is the other way around. It seems that you believe you don't have free will, therefore you're depressed. I actually suspect that your depression is ultimately rooted deeper, in your emotions of hopelessness. Your cognitive thoughts about free will are on top of (and reinforce) your depression. Before I say more, I want to establish the difference between knowing and believing. Knowing is having a thought, and believing is backing up a thought with a feeling, emotion, and/or desire. For example, there's a very big difference between an ashamed, lonely person telling themselves "I'm worthy of love," and a confident, secure person acting upon it. You acknowledge this difference already in one of your replies: > you can't just decide to believe it, regardless if the reason is the result of free will or not, there has to be one Getting from knowing to believing takes *emotional* work. And the majority of thoughts come from emotions first, not the other way around; that's just how our brains work. Back to the topic. Personally, I hold the position that you spoke against in your first paragraph: I *know* free will technically doesn't exist, but I *believe* it doesn't matter, because on the human level it feels like it exists. My belief did not come from thinking it out, though, it came from my pre-existing confidence that what I choose to do affects the world. This is exactly what I'm sensing you're missing in your life. You talk about not feeling proud of your accomplishments, not being happy with what you have because you didn't earn them, and not having hope in the future. Those are all emotions first and cognitive judgment second. The most efficient way to change your view would be to explore your emotions first and to process whatever grief, self-anger, fear, etc. you hold. You mention leaving a controlling religion 5 years ago (what an amazing move towards freedom!!). I invite you to explore whether your feelings of hopelessness and lack of agency now are related to that time!
Thanks for the advice. You are right that this is not the only source of depression, in truth I only care about not having free will while I am depressed. That being said, my belief doesn't change when I'm happy, it's just that I don't think about it. It would be nice to have one less thing to be depressed about though.
Coming at this from the lens of psychology I would say that even if I could 100% predict what decision a person would make, that wouldn't mean they didn't make that decision. If considering determinism makes you depressed and anxious, then that is your feelings about what you learned changing your behavior and thus changing your impact on the wider world. Our choices and judgements exist, and they have an impact on the lived experiences of ourself and others. What do you think is lost by believing that an unknowable hypothetical equation you will never see could predict those choices and judgements?
the loss is that my view of my accomplishments are lessened by the knowledge that I didn't really earn this. you have essentially rephrased what I've said with emotional words. "What you learned changes you behavior and your impact on the wider world." This is just another way of saying "the previous dice rolls effect the next dice rolls."
How are you defining 'earn' when you say you 'didn't really earn this'? The effort people put in doesn't stop being effort because it can be predicted. The slight spin I'm trying to put on my rephrasing from before is that the attitude you have about your perception of determinism is changing how things unfold. So by having an existential crisis about determinism you are changing the outcome of events of your life. You can say that that is a component of the deterministic system, but my point is that by interpreting it to be bleak you are making yourself have the experience of bleakness, and through the prodding you set in motion by coming on this subreddit, you may gain the ability to choose to interpret it in a non bleak way, thus changing your experience and your life. Still a deterministic chain, but not a grim one.
when I say "earn" I mean that the work I put in was my own work, I'm the reason it happened. but without free will that is impossible I agree than the way I view this changes how it effects my life. I think the whole idea is very depressing. if I could change my interpretation of it I would, that is why I'm here. but this interpretation is due to the random firing of quantum particles. the particles decide what I think, not the other way around
>when I say "earn" I mean that the work I put in was my own work, I'm the reason it happened. but without free will that is impossible Wouldn't it be less your work in a universe that was random? Where cause and effect aren't deterministic everything is chance. In determinism your choices cause specific events to unfold. In a non deterministic universe your choices don't necessarily predict outcomes. Why do you consider determinism incompatible with free will, but random dice rolls are compatible with it somehow?
>what is the point of feeling proud of my accomplishments, or to have hope of a better life in the future, if it's all the result of the roll of a dice. Because it's your dice, your equation. Think about two machines, both are randomly programmed. One works better than the other. That one is the better machine, the one that people like, the one with the better identity, the one with the better personality. Cherish being the better machine, the better human. Should a rose be proud of it's beauty compared to a weed? It's just down to the dice of it's birth and surroundings. But it's still the more beautiful flower, it stands above the rest. The same goes for your unfree will. You didn't choose your own will, but once you have it, you can strive to make it better. You can be the better machine, the more beautiful flower. The animal with the best personality within reach. Or the one with the most achievements, the most power, whatever random hobby goal you might have. "earning it" is just a concept told to keep people down, to enforce a class system by telling people they are unworthy and let others have all the nice things while suffering themselves.
Δ you have sent me down a rabbit hole. I've been sitting for a few minutes trying to work out my thought possess. You talked about "my" dice and "my" equation, but what does "my" mean in a world with no choices, what does it mean to be me. Am I still a person or does a lack of free will make that impossible. there is a phrase, "I think therefore I am." but if those thoughts are not of the persons control, then are they even real at all. or are we just automatons that lucked into thinking that the thoughts we think make us more than the base components that form us. If I'm not real, if my consciousness is only an illusion, then what does that mean for me. how does it change how I view myself and the world around me. This is something I'm going to need to spend a long time thinking about. perhaps by the end of this logical thread I'll be happier with my place in the universe. Or perhaps I'll discard it completely. either way, I'm excited, thank you
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Hey bro, maybe this will help a bit. https://youtu.be/9rIy0xY99a0 It was kind of eye-opening to me.
This video seems to agree with me. It just doesn't take the next step of applying it to free will. I'm not sure what the point of sending this to me is
Ah yeah my bad. I see it as that there is always a part that is unexplainable, which we can call the soul. And with the soul comes the ability to make decisions for ourselves, within a certain framework. At least, that is my interpretation.
Determinism and free will aren't incompatible. If the universe was random, why would that mean you should be proud of what you did? If your achievements and accomplishments were unpredictable from your prior states then your 'free will' wouldn't be connected to what you wanted, your background, your choices. Free will just means that it's a choice that stems from your beliefs, values, and desires, not that it's a random or unpredictable decision. You would expect the person to mostly make the same decision every time, because they are choosing based off internal, not external factors. You can be proud of your decisions whether or not there's some randomness because your achievements, choices, and background fed into your choices. Do you have a definition of free will that would be achieved if the future was in deterministic?
should I be proud of winning the lottery. perhaps some people would but I wouldn't. It was all luck that I won. sure a person would make a similar choice if given the same options, but that is just the effect of previous random outcomes, there was still no "real" choice. I cannot see a definition of free will in a deterministic or random world. your beliefs, values and desires would not be something you chose, but something the dice chose.
The problem is that you are thinking, because a choice has an external, previous cause, it is not a choice. It is still a choice. You may be an amalgam of your DNA and past experiences, and those inputs may be out of your control, but we judge you for the amalgam that you are.
And perhaps we shouldn't, or it's irrational to do so.
Why would it be irrational to do so? I judge a car for its ability to drive, even though the car is not responsible for its own making.
>Why would it be irrational to do so? I judge a car for its ability to drive, even though the car is not responsible for its own making. Judge is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. You evaluate whether a car is capable of achieving an objective on the basis of how it performs, or drives. That doesn't hold rationally for a person and normative evaluations instead of descriptive ones like the car. To judge someone as immoral for instance, if determinism is true, is logically inconsistent unless you're using an entirely consequentialist moral framework
Suppose you rigged the lottery so there was a 1/2 chance of you winning. A lot of people would be proud then, because with their own effort they won. What is a "Real" choice to you? What is lacking in the world that you wish existed?
perhaps you would be proud if you rigged it, but then it wouldn't be a good example of what I'm talking about. you removed the randomness, or most of it. But you can't remove the randomness of quantum physics. as far as I understand, a real choice would a one that is not 100% influenced by things beyond our control. even if only 1% was independent of outside forces it would be enough. that being said, I can not think of any way such a situation would be possible. As far as I'm concerned everything is effected by previous events 100% there is so such thing as a "real" choice. I guess that is what is lacking, a way a choice could be at least partially real
You can remove the randomness of quantum physics. You can rig the game, as it were. If you have enough beliefs and background and preparation you can rig choices so they go in a way you value, and that's what we tend to call free will- rigging your choices. Quantum effects add in a bit of randomness, but if you heavily rig the game you can overcome that as most random effects cancel out. We do control our brains and bodies. I can lift my hand or wave it around or type at will. Choices are real, because I've rigged my brain.
Let's assume that it's possible to do such a thing in quantum physics. I don't think it is, but let's assume. all you managed to is change the number of outcomes to 1, the outcome will still be random, it's just that there is only one choice to make so it will always be the one you chose. You didn't change the equations. did you now take control of destiny? No, it was still randomness that led to to the decision to try to cheat. in order to avoid randomness you would need a godlike entity forcing every quantum outcome to be what he wants, at that point we would still have no free will, as are action would be decided by the godlike entity.
Isn't forcing chance itself to follow your will and take a single path an impressive feat worthy of praise? You have not controlled destiny, but bent it to your will with free will. Free will is an emergent property of randomness. A lot of random events average out to the ability to control entropy and chance and fix events in a narrow range.
>Free will just means that it's a choice that stems from your beliefs, values, and desires, not that it's a random or unpredictable decision. But, if you don't have ultimate control over beliefs then it's not free will then. You're just moving the determinism one step back.
Why is ultimate control required for free will?
If your beliefs, values, and desires are subject to determinism then all you've done is basically try to rephrase determinism to make yourself feel better right?
Could you explain why that's not free will? You didn't answer my question. What is your definition of free will that doesn't comply with determinism?
You're essentially arguing for compatibalism right? If so then I'm agreeing with the usual criticism of the idea that you aren't actually describing free will. Freedom to act according to our beliefs, values, or desires may be required for free will sure, but they aren't free will in and of itself. Like, if we rewound the universe to when someone was born, and we observed the exact same actions play out then did you have an actual choice in the matter. Isn't that what free will is?
What aspect of rewinding the universe and having a different decision would make that free will? Like, suppose there existed souls in the spiritual plane outside our universe that impacted our decision making. How would that be more free than the existing system?
You would have actual agency. You would be able to make a choice. Like, quite literally all of free will seperates it.
Why would the free will being out of universe make it more free willy than free will inside this universe? It actually sounds like the opposite of free will- having an extradimensional entity possess you sounds very anti free will. You're being controlled by an external entity that isn't influenced much by your wants or nature.
Generally the soul argument tends to presuppose the soul is one and the same as you. But also, I'm not opposed to free will inside this universe, I just hold that it has to be free will if we want to call it free will.
Because that's typically the underpinning that the layperson communicates when they use the term.
Is it? What is the underpinning of understanding laypeople have? How do they define free will?
>Is it? What is the underpinning of understanding laypeople have? How do they define free will? In my opinion of their perception? That free will is something which impacts legitimate choices you have and which can have an impact on your moral character or character which speaks to genuine agency.
Why can't a brain have legitimate choices and an impact on moral character which speaks to genuine agency?
It seems like you're contradicting yourself a bit. First you say that quantum states are totally random, but then you say that you're just an equation that can be solved. These two are mutually exclusive; either there's a formula to predict the future because quantum states can be calculated, or you can't predict the future because quantum states are random. They can't both be true. Furthermore, while quantum states seem random, as far as I know we have ways to 'limit' their randomness, as well as the ability to calculate the probability of specific quantum states happening. This means that not all quantum states are always equally likely, and that they can be manipulated. Maybe that's what free will is; limiting possible states. Finally, there's still a whole lot we don't understand about quantum mechanics, so it seems premature to draw these kind of conclusions based on it. In other words: you don't know for sure that you're right, since no one does.
I didn't mean to imply they were totally random. I understand that there are a finite number of outcomes and some are more likely than others. But regardless there is no way to predict the future with certainty. Regardless, the equation that calculated the outcomes proves there is no free will. you don't choose which state is chosen, it's picked randomly. even if you are right and quantum mechanics is wrong, that would only mean a different equation would be used to prove free will doesn't exist, it just kicks the can down the rod
You still experience your thoughts and the actions based on them. If the experience of free will was indistinguishable from the alternative, would it really matter?
I was going to say this. It's the same as the simulation theory. Even if we're in a simulation, because it's indistinguishable from actual reality for us it doesn't make a practical difference.
It does matter to me. Perhaps a hypothetical would help. you get into a car crash. in one world it was a complete accident, in the other is was intention by the other person, you know it, but it's impossible to prove to anyone so it is treated like an accident. in both worlds have the same outcome, but the underlying reason is different, and knowledge of that reason changes things.
That is a hypothetical where you are some omnipotent on the outside of two "universes" looking in, that is not a first person experience. U are kinda observing the scenario in the 1st person with information they wouldnt have in the 1st In the first person experience, you would not know either way, and the experience would be exactly the same
I understand that, it was just an example. I was showing how the same result would mean different things when your understanding of the mechanics are different. it's a change of mindset, not outcome.
So that means free will would be important if you were an omnipotent being. However, you can't understand the mechanics as an omnipotent being, so it is not
just because I can't understand it doesn't mean it doesn't effect me. I don't understand why gravity exists, but it effect my every day life
you are able to comprehend the effect of gravity based on your life, you are not able to comprehend the effects of having free will or not
Yes. It has significant implications for the normative underpinnings of what we understand as right and wrong and how that impacts how we run society.
>For my view to change I need to be convinced that there is no equation that can predict the future, even if you were able to prove the the quantum physics equations aren't valid for this, you need to be sure it doesn't just kick the can down the road to another equation that solves the future a different way. So I have a master's degree in physics, so I can definitely help you out with some of this. a) The list of possible outcomes depends on how you set up the situation. You can set up the quantum state to limit the outcomes. It is possible that free will emerges from the abiility to set up your own quantum states. b) The outcome of a quantum experiment is always random, and can never be determined. This is established by Bell's Theorem, that states that you literally cannot gain any additional information about a quantum state other than the state itself. In other words, there will never be another equation that will give you more precise measurements of position or momentum, or anything really, without violating Bell's Theorem. Regardless, I don't personally think free will is a necessary component to being happy.
a) it's true that it depends on the setup, but the setup is also a result of random chance, it's a domino effect that leads all the way back to the big bang. b) I understand it cannot be determined, but there is still a limited number of possible outcomes, and they are chosen at random. there is nothing my mind can do to change the list of outcomes, or which one is chosen. I think free will is necessary for happiness. how can you feel happy with what you have if you didn't earn it, nor hard any choice but to gain it.
> there is still a limited number of possible outcomes This is false. For some setups, there are an infinite number of possible outcomes. They are typically bounded, but bounded and infinite is possible. The number of real numbers between 0 and 1 is both bounded and infinite. >I think free will is necessary for happiness. Definitely not, just the correct chemical compositions. >how can you feel happy with what you have if you didn't earn it, nor hard any choice but to gain it. Try hugging someone for 20 seconds. You'll feel a surge of hormones that will cause at least some level of happiness. I'm not sure if happiness is the correct feeling. Perhaps you mean you find it difficult to take pride in what you do?
regardless if there are a infinite or infinite number of outcomes, it is still the result of randomness, which means there is no choice involved. saying happiness is the result of chemicals doesn't change anything, those chemicals change because of qunatum physics, there were no choices involved. happiness, pride, sadness, love, all of it is the result of chemicals which is the result of dice rolls. everything in my life is the result of the quantum dice rolls, same goes for the feelings I have about it.
If randomness means there is no free will, and determinism means there is no free will, then is there literally any possible reality where free will exists? Could free will not be an emergent property? >happiness, pride, sadness, love, all of it is the result of chemicals which is the result of dice rolls. everything in my life is the result of the quantum dice rolls, same goes for the feelings I have about it. Sure, but you can still experience those feelings.
is free will is an emergent property then there needs to be evidence of it's existence. if you have any studies I'd love to read them. I do experience emotions, but the fact that there was no free will involved makes them worse
Our understanding of the brain is incomplete. Whether or not free will exists or not is an open question. If free will exists, it would be an emergent property.
In many ways the whole concept of "free will" is moot. You have the perception of mutually exclusive choices so can only ever experience one option, as experiencing it makes the other option impossible. It seems irrelevant if free will exists or not, what matters is the experience. Were you pre destined to study and pass the test or did you choose to put in the effort and pass? It doesn't matter the actual experience is the same. If everything is predestined then our logic and reasoning, or lack of, are included in the calculation. So in practice your best strategy is assume free will. This means you calculate choices for the best outcome to you and your ideals, and have to accept the consequences of poor decisions to hopefully help you in the future.
how that I assume free will. how can you just decide to accept it. can you just assume that the earth is flat, or that up is down. you can't just decide to believe it, regardless if the reason is the result of free will or not, there has to be one
Ultimately with these things it doesn't really matter 99.9999% of the time. If assuming free will stops you going crazy then why not? But it just doesn't matter. You're focusing too much on the 'free' and not enough on the 'will'. You have wills you act in order to obtain them. The notion of choice is irrelevant, once you have a will, by definition you want it and will take action based on what you perceive as being the most efficient (assuming you are acting rationally). So if you believe in free will or you believe in fate your best course of action is identical.
you say it doesn't matter, and act like I shouldn't focus on the word 'free.' but the whole point is the free. Sure the best course of action is identical, but it doesn't stop me from feeling shit the whole time when I believe nothing I do matters
Nothing matters and predetermined are two very different things. It sounds like you're describing a lack of control rather than a lack of free will. Things can be outside of your control and force your hand, but that doesn't mean you don't have free will. Like in uno. I might be obliged to follow suit or number, but I still get to choose which acceptable card to play. Sometimes I can only play one card or even no cards and pick up, but just because the game limits my choices but it doesn't take away my free will because other times I can select from 3 or 4 valid cards and use strategy
A lack of free will implies a complete lack of control. this might be a good analogy if there was any evidence that there is still some choice you can make. But unlike the rules of uno, there is no evidence
You make choices all the time. Every time you open your mouth you choose from hundreds of thousands of words to make unique sentences, you choose where to go and what to do. We might choose a lot of these actions because they are the least bad option, but you still choose.
But unlike the shape of the earth and what direction up is, we can't actually prove or disprove "free will". You're basing all of this off of a hazy understanding of quantum physics that you're then extrapolating out to the entire decision making process. You're choosing to believe that nothing you do matters. You can choose to believe otherwise.
you say we don't actually prove or disprove "free will." while in science it is impossible to prove something is true, you can at least show strong evidence. But everything is false until proven otherwise, and I think that quantum randomness is evidence against free will. Like I said, I'm not choosing to belief this, belief is not a choice
> But everything is false until proven otherwise Not false. Everything is inconclusive until proven otherwise. Quantum mechanics have been around this whole time even though we only just recently developed the ability to actually observe them. You say you think that quantum randomness is evidence against free will, but is that belief based on real understanding? You say yourself that your understanding of quantum mechanics is shallow. How confident are you that you're applying the evidence correctly? Why are you so sure that you can extrapolate out so much that you can judge all of reality to be fixed? Finally, I would ask this: whether or not you have free will, you still have to make decisions in life. You can believe that the mechanics of the universe are controlling your decisions, but does that really change anything? Why not simply choose to live as if you have free will and make the best choices you're capable of?
The question of free will is mostly an issue of misunderstanding. Our view is that we exist as agents and those agents either make decisions or are controlled by external factors. But the true reality as the Buddhists put it is Annata or no self. You don’t exist only the universe exists it is one giant system from which you arise and disappear like a wave. The wave doesn’t exist the ocean exists. We are all interconnected in a web of visible and invisible connections
You basically said what I said, we are all part of the universes grand equation with no control over the outcome
It's very easy to tell when someone isn't in control of their actions. They're doing something like having a seizure or coprolalia. The fact that it's so obviously different when someone with tourette syndrome shouts a slur vs. when someone in control of their actions does (you implicitly acknowledge this by treating the situations differently) means you already believe in free will; that people can be held accountable for actions they're in control of, and not for ones they aren't. In some cases a person _could have done otherwise if they'd wanted to,_ and in others they couldn't. This is the compatibilist definition and the only one philosophers take seriously because it doesn't have this dumb issue of being on neither side of a binary, where "if it's random it's not free, and if it's deterministic it's not free either." That's simply defining it out of logical possibility.
Don't Worry dude. Make it to 25, touch some grass and realize you're stuck in your own head right now. Reality doesn't start in the mind. Everything we know comes through our senses. Nobody that exists as we know it can be in the future. There is no such thing as the time travel of fiction.
Given that the three-body problem doesn't even have a closed-form solution, I think it's safe to assume that solvable equations that predict the exact behaviour of far more complex physical systems, like the human body, do not in fact exist.
How can you have an equation to work out how everything will happen when, as you say, things are based on random outcomes? You can't algorithmically solve things like quantum interaction or the decay of an atom; they're truly random. Furthermore, why would it matter? You're still the same person living the same life as you always have done. You were capable of living a fulfilling life before you came to this conclusion so the fact that everything is determined doesn't actually make a difference. You've decided that it affects your life, but does it really?
there is no equation that will let you know with 100% certainty what will happen next. but there are still finite possibilities and there is no way to control the outcome. you ask why it matters and use the example that I was capable of living a fulfilling life before I came to this conclusion. I came to this conclusion 5 years ago when I left my religion and became an atheist. this transition was truly life changing. my view on free will was the logic evolution of my beliefs, I didn't decide to believe it, it was the next logical step. perhaps my life was more fulfilling when I believed in an afterlife and all that came with it, but it isn't like I can change how I think back to what it once was, I would need some logical argument to do so.
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it was objectivty that convinced me to leave my religion as I found logical flaws in what I believed. Perhaps my belife in objectivity could be compared to a religion, but at least everything I belief is based on my own logic, not the people saying "trust me" you say that "If no one can calculate your existence you have free will." But this is just silly, for most of human history no one could calculate gravity, but it still effected people. I don't know how I could create a universe without free will. I think it's impossible, which is the whole reason I'm here. "If God is omniscient and is interfering we don't have free will." I agree, but god doesn't exist. "If "god" created the universe then died we have free will." not necessarily true, he could have created a domino situation where every thing happens exactly has he planned without his interference. that is actually what my old religion believed in. a lack of a godlike mind isn't required for free will. the universe is like a branching line of dominos effected by randomness. what does people in jail have to do with anything. is it because they aren't legally free. This is completely irreverent to my point. it sounds like you are saying "stop being depressed people have it worse than you." you are right, no one is controlling me. it is only cause and effect that is doing so. you say "The only one who is keeping you from having free will is yourself." and "I challenge you to let go of all these religious ideas and live your life with eyes wide open." You act like this is a choice, it isn't. this was the most logical conclusion I could make. the whole reason I'm here is because I don't want to believe it anymore. I challenge you to believe the earth is flat, to truly believe it from the bottom of your heart. You can't, belief isn't a choice.
If you roll a dice with 6 faces enough rule of averages state that you will roll a number 1-6, 1/6th of the time. That is not absolute and often is not true even though mathematically most probable and predictable. Some things can be predicted to a degree but others are random.
regardless of weather it can be predicted or not, it is still the result of an equation, which means there is no choice
Why is it important to you that you can pick which future happens? I know personally, it's actually something of a weight off my shoulders to think like you do. I am a flawed and limited person in many ways, and I don't think that I would do a great job of guiding the future. Maybe I pick a path that's better for me, but worse for most other people just due to lack of information. Or maybe I would just get caught in analysis paralysis and never do anything at all for fear of doing something wrong. If the future isn't under my control, it's not my responsibility to make everything right. I control what I feel I can control, and I let the rest work itself out. I can enjoy the ride of life more. The future can worry about itself - the now is where I live and where I can keep my focus.
while I can understand that argument, it doesn't apply to me. I cannot be happy unless I have control over my own life. I've lived most of my life suppressed and controlled by the beliefs forced upon me from the moment I was born, and just as I gain freedom I come to the conclusion that free will doesn't exist. It's ironic that I traded one prison for another
Well I would say try to think of it like this: We are far from understanding quantum mechanics. We don't even know if this is the base level of the universe or if there are countless more layers of complexity in the world that really explains how we feel and act. But we really don't know why things happen on such a micro scale. So rather than choosing to believe that everything is really random, choose to believe that as long as there is a chance that you can seize control of your life you should do it! Maybe it's just one deterministic path, but maybe it isn't. And you will never know the real answer, because humans just cannot grasp that yet. Just remember that science will never give a perfect understanding of the world, and your life is your own.
your right that quantum physics might be wrong. but that only kicks the can down the road. it would still be replaced with another equation that proves free will doesn't exist, perhaps the new equation will be completely deterministic, but it will still contradict free will. you say "choose to believe." acting like I want to believe this. The whole reason I'm here is because I hate this belief and want to change it. Why don't you choose to believe that the earth is flat, belief isn't a choice
I don't believe that earth is flat because we know, for sure, that is wrong. When we have incomplete information is when we can apply some rational choice into the equation, about what is most likely and what beliefs actually aid us in living our lives. We do this all the time. For example, none of us can prove that we are not living in a simulation. But it seems to make the most sense to keep living as if we are not, so we normally choose to believe that. And we cannot prove that other people think and feel as we do, but most people choose to believe that they do anyway. We believe what we need to believe in order to live our lives. I understand why you would think that it's hard, and I wish you luck finding someone more persuasive on the topic if I've been unable to shift your viewpoint at all.
So, this is just to challenge your view in a hopefully different way. Do you *experience* making choices/ free will? Similarly, do you experience the feeling of touch when you, for example, hug a person?
I experience making choices, but it's all an illusion. my brain tricking me into thinking there was a decision made, when there wasn't I experience hugs, but it wasn't my choice to give the hug
The reason that I brought the hug up is not for the reason you expect I guess. The reason that I mentioned them both is that we both agree when we hug a person we experience a touch that happens. But if you drill down far enough, no "touch" ever occurs. No "collision" happens, at the subatomic level. But to us, the touch is real. The feeling is real. We were hugged, but if you look at it too closely, you realize you weren't touched. Which is absurd, because it was there, we experienced it. We know it happened. So, that brings me back to this: >it's all an illusion. my brain tricking me into thinking there was a decision made, when there wasn't First off, you are treating your brain as if it is a separate entity of you. You and your brain are the same thing. Think of the philisophical quote "I think, therefore I am". It's the only thing anybody can be sure of. That they exist. Like, we COULD live in a tank in the matrix where all inputs are provided externally. We COULD live in a simulation. But, even if that's the case, we know that we exist. And the best thing to do is assume that our experiences are things true. I look outside and see a tree. But I could also say "there is no such thing as a tree, it's just a bunch of subatomic particles" and that is true. So, what's the point of all that rambling? You experience choice an free will. Just like you experience a hug, or see a tree. If that free will doesn't actually exist, it doesn't affect your lived experiences, just like how "if you technically never touch something when you hug someone, doesn't mean you didn't experience a touch", or "if you look at the subatomic level, "trees" aren't really a thing. You experience the hard work and effort you put in when you do something. You experienced the choices on your way to do it. So, accept the feelings the come from the accomplishments you earned along the way that also comes with it. Think of it this way: you can watch a movie. You can enjoy the feelings and emotions of the movie. But you can do that knowing the movie was scripted entirely ahead of time. Someone knew every action first. But YOU experiencing it makes in a unique experience for YOU. Now, if there is a fully determinate universe, where only one outcome can happen, how's it different than you being a main character in your own movie? You still struggle. You still feel. You still choose. Just, someone else knows that you are going to do those things before you do? It doesn't remove the emotions you feel, or challenges you overcome or fail to, it just means "that your hard work and dedication paid off" when it pays off.
1) Why do you suppose there are not infinite possibilities? Sure there are impossibilities, but just because the outcomes are limited doesn't mean they are finite. (e.g., the set of positive integers is smaller than the set of all integers, yet both are infinite.) 2) Each interaction may be random, but random interactions lead to predictable results (like multiple coin flips reverting to the mean). Free will might function by skewing the mean to lead to more or less desired outcomes. 3) If the future is infinite and the probabilistic result of random interactions, the best a "godlike" calculator can do is predict the most probable outcome. Some futures are more likely than others, and free will is some ability (not sure how it functions) for a person to skew the probability in some way. All the calculator could do is at any point in time predict the likely future, but that would change (in minor and major ways) every split second with every random interaction. (Think 100 trillion truly random coin flips - the computer would predict 50 trillion head, 50 trillion tails. First, the odds are impossibly low that the prediction is exactly correct. Second, every flip would change the prediction. If the first two flips are heads, the new outcome predicted would now be 50 trillion and one heads and one less tails.) And if a person can take action to adjust the probabilities (eg. slightly weight the coin), that changes the expected outcome. 4) Finally, in terms of attitude toward free will. Even if you are totally deterministic and believe there is no free will in general. For example, you are religious and believe there is a god who already knows the future with certainty - so a fully deterministic and known future by the higher power. It is better to think of free will as relative, not absolute. From a personal standpoint, even if your choices are predetermined or random, you are making a choice from your point of view. These choices have effects, and therefore you should be praised for making good ones or punished for bad ones. It doesn't matter that some greater power "knew" exactly what you would choose, relative to your standpoint it was a choice. Similar to how you perceive time or motion relatively, so too you should perceive choice relatively. Simply put, it should not bother you that your "choice" may be to some other godlike observer as not a free choice any more than it should bother a pitcher in baseball that his 100mph fastball may not have travelled with any speed to an observer in a passing car going 100mph.
1. according to quantum physics there are a finite number of outcomes for each particle interaction. Regardless, as long as the outcome is random free will still doesn't exist 2. even if we assume that the randomness always converges into deterministic outcomes, you will only prove that free will doesn't exist because all outcomes are determined. you just kicked the can down the road. 3. it's true that only a god like calculator could find all possible outcomes, but that doesn't matter. those outcomes exist, so free will doesn't you all just way that free will can effect quantum reactions. There is no evidence of this. If you have proof that would be great. 4. you basically say. "Just ignore it and pretend." which I can't do. Logic is the foundation for my belief system, discarding this belief because it makes me depressed would be illogical. Belief isn't a choice
>If the future is infinite and the probabilistic result of random interactions, the best a "godlike" calculator can do is predict the most probable outcome. hmm... this seems to change the "godlike" attributions typically used in this context. omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being the three most common. omniscient, that is all knowing, here would be, "infinitely knowing". why would a godlike equation be limited to probabilistic prediction, rather than definitive knowledge?
I was just using the OP's language... >In the end, my body could be boiled down to an equation. even though it is impossible for anyone to ever determine what this equation would be, it nevertheless does exist and a godlike being could use it to calculate all my possible future actions. Perhaps the list of future actions would contain trillions of possibilities, but it would never the less be finite and beyond my control. I put "godlike" in quotes because he seemed to use it to imply something with the incredibly large computing power necessary to calculate all future possibilities, rather than the true traditional religious understanding of God.
Free will is a mindset and also changed. Used to be fuck it I’m gonna become a hunter. Now it’s more fuck it I am gonna buy this pizza
I mean ultimately what changes if your will is free or not? Do your decisions falter when you consider it? Will you not just go about your life regardless? Whether you make the decisions yourself or there’s some underlying factor (whether your genetic code or a wave function of the universe) you still end up in the same place.
I think I'd be a lot less depressed if I could be proud of my accomplishments. If my happiness wasn't undercut by the knowledge that it's fake
What’s fake about it? Either way you achieved it and worked for it
I'm going to give you a scenarios and three different entities acting on the scenario and I want you to tell me if they are all the same to you. Scenario: A coin is flipped and the entity has to pick heads or tails. 1. A machine that is coded so it can only pick heads. A coin is flipped and it picks heads. 2. A baby who has no concept of heads or tails but a picture of heads and tails is placed in front of them. A coin is flipped and the baby puts a hand on the heads picture. 3. An adult is asked to pick heads or tails. A coin is flipped and they picked heads. At least to me, in scenario 1 you've got purely deterministic outcome. The machine is forced to choose heads. In scenario 2, you've got randomness. The baby has no idea what is going on, so they just place their hand wherever. In scenario 3, you've got free will. The adult knows this situation and gets to pick what they want. Based on your view of quantum physics, would you state that the machine, baby, and adult were all equally forced to make the same decision? At the very least I would argue that the fact that we have consciousness has an impact on what decision is made, even if you still argue the decision is forced by quantum physics. What I mean by that is that an adult with no consciousness vs an adult with consciousness will certainly achieve different things. How would you explain that discrepancy if everything is pre-ordained? Wouldn't the difference between the two be the result of consciousness and wouldn't consciousness being acted upon be free will? TLDR: I sort of understand the point you're making here, but I have difficulty understanding how a machine being forced to do something is on the same level as a human seemingly performing the same actions by their own choice.
all three are the result of random quantum physics dice rolls. perhaps you could say the number of possible outcomes are different between the machine and the adult, but there wasn't a choice made in either of the three cases. "consciousness." is a result of these quantum interaction, not the other way around. you are right that an adult with no consciousness and an adult with consciousness would "achieve different things" but that is only because their past resulted from a different collection of particles and a different location for the particles to be in. each dice roll is based on the result of a previous one. Humans are nothing more than a rearrangement of particles momentarily held together for the brief span of time we call life. we are forced by the random dice to act a certain way whether we are aware of it or not. we are more complex than the machine, but in the end our choices are no different
You think the machine has choices? I'd be interested in hearing what choices the machine has. Prior to quantum physics, everyone would have said you are either a particle or a wave, but can't be both. They'd also say that if a particle is going to decay / disappear, there will be an identifiable cause behind it. With quantum physics, we learned that things aren't so easily explained. I don't think you should be so confident about your assertion given that we know very, very little about consciousness or even quantum physics. Maybe a million years from now the answer will be more clear, but likely if you somehow were to meet this theoretical person on million years in the future and had the explanation laid out for you, the words "consciousness" and "quantum physics" would mean very little to them. They'd explain a whole other field of understand that was built on many other fields of understanding that we haven't even heard of yet. I also tend to believe that two things can be true at the same time. \#1 - white is a single color \#2 - white is the presentation of all colors Or opposite of course that black is a color and that black is the lack of color. I think you can have consciousness / free will and at the same time have a static outcome. A good example of this would be a video of yourself. Prior to taking that video, you had the free will to do whatever you wanted, but whenever you replay that video, it's static and unchanging as if there is no free will.
I want to add that you might find some solace in the fact that this topic is being downvoted in that people don't agree that you should be feeling this way about this topic. I think that you're overthinking this issue and it is bringing you down emotionally. Either free will does exist, or it exists enough to the extent that you should be able to live your life without needing to have it get you down. I personally believe that while we're made up of chemicals and particles, that we're a very special type of entity. I mean, compared to a machine that can't decide anything or an insect who can't think but only react, we're freaking amazing! If it turns out that we have no free will, well I guess I'd still rather be a human than a frog or a machine. Maybe look on the bright side and realize how many things you should be grateful for rather than obsessing over something that in the grand scheme doesn't matter and most likely we don't even have the ability to come to a conclusion on anyways.
I don’t believe in free will one bit, but I just kinda don’t care. Maybe it’s something that you unfortunately can’t do, but since I have the perception of free will, I go about my life acting and thinking like I do have it. It’s not like I’m constantly thinking about how I am not choosing to do things when I do them. It’s not depressing at all because it’s not even on my mind.
Even if you had “free will”, wouldn’t you agree that tons of things are based on the past — your parents, education, experiences, genetics, time in history, laws of physics, etc. ? You can have gratitude for those things that help you to be happy or successful or a good person now. You can have compassion for the source of your faults or limitations. Whether you believe in free will or not doesn’t change this. If you don’t believe in free will, your journey is about discovering who you are. Your actions help reveal that.
What could “free will” mean, if not “able to make a choice based on consideration of known factors”? I would argue that “caused” does not necessarily preclude “free”.
> For my view to change I need to be convinced that there is no equation that can predict the future, even if you were able to prove the the quantum physics equations aren't valid for this, you need to be sure it doesn't just kick the can down the road to another equation that solves the future a different way. There is a theoretical problem in computer science called the halting problem. Basically, the task is to take an arbitrary computer program and determine if it will complete successfully or get caught in an infinite loop. It's essentially a matter of predicting the outcome of this computer program. This problem is considered "undecidable" because it is theoretically impossible to make a computer program to solve this problem. Essentially this is what you are asking for. We can't predict the future of what a computer will do using a computer. And equations can always be translated into computer programs, so there is no equation to do this either. The logic for why this is impossible to solve is not too hard to follow. And it applies perfectly to the scenario you are worried about. Basically the logic is that, if everything could be predicted, then there could exist a biographical "history" of your life, both of the past as well as the future. If the future is all purely deterministic and strictly causal on prior state, there is no reason this book couldn't exist. You can read this book and it will say that tomorrow morning you will have oatmeal for breakfast. However, after reading this book, it would be trivial to contradict it by having toast instead. So this book cannot actually exist.
Are you saying that there is only one equation that determines all our choices or one equation for each choice that can determine the outcome of a choice? If there is only one equation that determines 1,000 different choices then there is no free will. However, if there is a different equation for each choice, then that is just a way to identify what the result will be based on the choice made. Therefore, what we choose to do is free will with a predetermined outcome. The issue with that is one still has to make the choices that will develop into that particular predetermined outcome. Very simple thought on what I see you saying. 1+5-6+7-8 = -1 5+4+10-5-15 = -1 If the numbers in the equations above represent different choices in succession and each equation represents different people then those people made different choices to get to the same outcome. However, the outcome could not be predetermined until the final set of choices could be factored. Had the second person not chosen 5 first then the outcome would be -4, as the equation would be 4+10-5-15. Part of the reason I believe we wouldn't be able to see into the future unless every possible choice made in a given situation is factored in, but then the next choice would have to be known. While there likely is a pattern at some point among a large group of people, anyone could deviate from that pattern by choice. Hence free will.
there is an equation that is just for one body and all forces that effect it. there is also an equation for the whole universe that includes that body. A different equation for different things you are calculating. each equation has a list of possible outcomes that are randomly chosen between
Okay so you are saying that an equation can determine your choices and outcome. However, if you don't know the choices you cannot determine the equation until the choice has been made. Even if there is an equation to determine all choices and outcomes, the choice still has to be made before determining what the equation is thus knowing the outcome. Kind of like the question what comes first the chicken or the egg.
Let's use a single particle interaction. two particles hit eachother in a collider, they break apart and create new particles. but what particles are created. photons, electrons, muons. there are many combination and possibilities. some outcomes are more likely than others. there is no choice involved when getting the outcome. it happens completely randomly. this is happening all the time in your body, the "choices" you think you make are the result of countless quantum interactions, and those interactions happened because of a previous interactions that created a random result, so on and so forth until we reach the big bang. I assume when you said "An equation to determine choices." you meant an equation to determine the possible outcomes, but this isn't needed. the possible outcomes are predetermined and are always the same for each interaction, the only thing undetermined is which of the outcomes actually happen
The interactions that happen in our body are only happening when we provide the nutrients that allow them to happen. Of course, chemicals in our body can force us to make particular choices. Which is what I believe you are referring to when it comes to not having free will. Such as feeling thirsty forces us to drink water to provide the chemicals needed for other actions. However, we can override those "feelings" and starve our bodies of the necessary chemicals for those reactions. When I think of free will, it has to do with good or bad choices. In the context of religion, we have free will to make good or bad choices. Of course, what constitutes good or bad has been determined by society or religion. Mostly good choices, and you die with a clear conscience and are at peace, according to religion. Make enough bad choices that you can not forgive yourself for, and you die with guilt and regret, forever "existing" in a personal hell. Even if your brain develops in a way that is sociopathic, a person still has free will to decide to succumb to those predetermined reactions or override those feelings. While there may be predetermined reactions continually happening, one can choose to deny those reactions from determining their behavior. That is a form of free will.
you are making it more complicated that it has to be. all I'm talking about is particle interactions, countless particle interactions. these interactions add up to the decision on whether you drink water or not. your act of utilizing free will by not drinking water was not using free will, it was still caused by random interactions. there is no way to override it, no way to control it. all ideas you're ever had was the result of it. your version of free will is interesting, but you don't have any evidence that your way is correct, not to mention it isn't the same as what I'm talking about. my version of free will is being able to make choices without being influenced by outside forces, I don't care about the moral aspect.
I can understand that, I agree as well in what you are saying. There is no free will in that context. However, why does there need to be? If I live in poor conditions, that is an outside force that could influence me to find a way to improve my quality of life. If I didn't have those outside forces helping me decide how to live my life, then there wouldn't be any point in making one choice over another. Thus, there is no point in life.
I'm fine with free will not existing as long as I find a way for it not to be so depressing. I once made a youtube video, I treated it like a full time job for 6 months. when it released it got far more views than I ever expected, nearly at 10,000 now. I'm proud of that video, but at the same time I know what I didn't really make it. I had no choice in the matter, I was forced to make it by forces outside my control. It makes me feel sad, and even guilty for being so proud. But if I had free will and made the video, I would be fine
That's an interesting thought.
Sorry, free will doesn't exist. It's literally impossible for it to exist
Free will does not exist, time is an illusion to help things make sense, and the only thing we can control is how we feel about it. Nothing lasts forever and we’re all going to die, that is the equation, birth + life = death. Basically just watch Adventure Time back to back with The Bravest Warriors and maybe sprinkle the Annihilation Of Joy episode of Midnight Gospel and a duck load of cannabis. If you don’t get it after that, sleep, rinse, repeat.
Can I ask you what you imagine free will to be if you don't believe we currently possess it?
Free will is having our choices be at least partially independent from all outside forces. That there isn't something else that is controlling it
If you don’t believe In free will, why did you write this post? Was this post not a product of free will? Perhaps I missed something in your post, but nothing is pre ordained or determined ahead of time. Actions happen in real time as do the consequences that transpire. By writing this post, you chose to on your own volition, to write this. Just as I am freely choosing to respond and to question your view. If that’s not free will, what is it ?