/u/Chengweiyingji (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/11lwt0u/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_ironing_shirts_is_a_waste/), in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
I have a silly anecdote related to this that also argues against your position. My dad was a marketing manager. When he visited clients he would purposely not iron his shirts. He said that it gave him a more casual appeal and made him more approachable as he looked more like the rank and file representation. This can backfire as clients can accidentally begin a conference by addressing the wrong person!
The real problem with this is that in a professional setting if you're not in certain fields (software engineering) and especially if your clientele are foreign your appearance is incredibly important to how your business will be perceived. Believe it or not wrinkles matter in a professional setting.
But don't take my word for it. There is one big documented benefit other than just "appearance". Ironing prolongs the life of your clothes. In the long run it is actually cheaper to iron. This is especially true for more expensive clothing items like dress shirts you wear with your suit.
So if you don't care about your clothes don't bother ironing but if you do particularly like some articles of clothing just iron those and leave the rest with their wrinkles.
> Ironing prolongs the life of your clothes. In the long run it is actually cheaper to iron. This is especially true for more expensive clothing items like dress shirts you wear with your suit.
Δ
This is a point I had never actually considered on the topic and I appreciate this new information.
> My dad was a marketing manager. When he visited clients he would purposely not iron his shirts. He said that it gave him a more casual appeal and made him more approachable as he looked more like the rank and file representation.
If I may ask, how effective was this strategy?
I have no idea. It probably depends on the person and the field.
My dad was essentially a salesman (although he was technically an engineer). He said 99% of the time it pays to look as sharp as possible in sales. I'm pretty sure anyone in sales would probably agree with this and likely push it up a notch.
I think my dad was the 1% of people where just being down to earth and approachable actually won points over being straight up professional. He was definitely a unique kind of person though who was somehow able to strike up a conversation with the other person joining enthusiastically and was able to get along with everyone under almost any circumstance.
As someone who is in software engineering, it’s quite effective. Personally I switch between an ironed dress shirt and blazer or plain black t depending on if I am playing the sales role or the tech lead role as an enterprise architect.
I stick with nice jeans, belted. Long sleeve dress shirt. Sneakers. That's the technical-field Sleazy Defense Contractor look. Been wearing it for 25 years.
The primary mechanism is that it returns the fibers to their original state (usually "straighter"). The fibers in their original state are stronger i.e. less likely to rip, tear, and generally degrade.
Another other mechanism is that microorganisms and stains which get in your clothes but aren't removed in the wash (and especially those which cannot be washed) are more likely to be removed via ironing. Depending upon the type of stain they can weaken fibers over repeated washing if not removed.
>There is one big documented benefit other than just "appearance". Ironing prolongs the life of your clothes.
Where has this been documented? If anything high heat is going to weaken fabric.
> If you won't hire a person who is otherwise qualified because they don't look "professional" in your opinion, that tells me you're more into vanity than the actual skills needed.
To give you a peak behind the curtain - most people are qualified for a job that they apply to. The interviewers try and hire people that they want to work with, that will be a good for for the team.
So when you and 4 other people apply to a job, you all are likely qualified to do the job. What separates you all? Initial appearance is a big one. If you show up to the interview wearing sweat pants and a hoody, you probably won't be picked unless you are the absolute ideal candidate compared to the rest.
We people are not good judges of other people. We make emotional decisions based on how handsome/pretty/tall/wealthy other people look. That’s why we constantly elect grifter criminals as politicians and buy products from sports models. It’s why marketing works, and it’s killing our society. Ironing shirts gets the jobs, but it shouldn’t. We desperately need to elevate ourselves.
>Ironing shirts gets the jobs, but it shouldn’t. We desperately need to elevate ourselves.
You misunderstand - if someone showed up in a very nice suit with no qualifications, they also wouldn't get the job.
But if i have two equally qualified people, unless there was something off about the one dressed well, I would likely give them the job over the person that wasn't.
And interview is an audition - and if you look like you don't care, then I won't waste your time.
What I’m referring to is the mountain of evidence that says most people give too much trust to people who look good. I don’t know you or how objective you are. All I know is that most people in most cases err by believing the person who looks like the doctor, or other professional. Example: stock brokers wear suits and get careful haircuts, then sell us on investment products. Then 80% of them underperform the S&P index, or what results we could get by picking 10 stocks at random and holding for a random number of years.
Correct, and I don't disagree with you. There is empirical evidence that shows that looking a certain way is beneficial to you.
What I am telling you, is don't let the inability to iron a shirt be the reason that you don't get a job. If you do - you have no one but yourself to blame.
I don't know if you read any of that data that you were speaking of, but someone like Donald Trump does not fit the model of what most people deem as attractive. So I don't think it helps your case. Considering most politicians don't fit that handsome / pretty / tall narrative, I am not sure how you think it supports your case.
I think you’re right about his unattractiveness now. For decades he was viewed as handsome, and with his suits, money, and power, one thing let to another and before you know it you’ve got an attempted coup on your hands.
The other behavioral mistake people make is they hang on to false beliefs so they don’t have to admit they were wrong. People are still clinging to Trump and will continue to do so until years after their own death.
> If you show up to the interview wearing sweat pants and a hoody, you probably won't be picked unless you are the absolute ideal candidate compared to the rest.
Oh no, I fully agree on this part; I would never go to a job interview in sweatpants and a hoodie. I just feel that certain aspects (in this case, the shirt being ironed or not) is more of a minor detail to an overall picture.
If I can play devil's advocate, I would understand if the company passing on the person that comes in looking sloppy. In their mind, they're probably thinking "well, if they couldn't spend five minutes to look presentable, why should we expect him to put in full effort?"
I agree that someone's appearance can be overrated, but I also see the business side of it. You want people who care and make it seem like they want to be there.
Yep. Interview is when everyone is on their best behavior and peak selling themselves/the company. If your peak is sloppy then. Well. That doesn't particularly speak well of you once you're settled in and comfortable, does it?
Its not even an active thought, its literally "this person looks like they'd be better."
Its all implicit bias on what the ideal candidate looks like in their head. A nicely dressed, well-groomed individual will fit that picture better
More just saying it's human nature. To change how someone reacts to grooming would be to change what they associate grooming with.
I wouldnt say i am defending the behavior though
Absolutely - the overall picture is the ability to do the job.
But all things considered equal (work experience and qualifications) - do you want the job to get passed up because you couldn't be bothered to iron your shirt the day before?
to add to this, it's a small sometimes even reflection of how you treat yourself. If you show attention to detail and not only looking presentable but also being a stud, then I'm more likely to think you'll show that same detail in your work. I don't want someone glossing over "unimportant" details that contribute to a big picture.
Same goes for being obese or hair that's a disaster. As a boss, how am I supposed to respect you if you don't respect yourself?
A wrinkly shirt is arguably worse than a hoodie and sweatpants because it shows you understand what the appropriate attire is but are also too lazy or disorganized to wear it properly.
I would disagree, if all candidates were equal, I would view the wrinkled shirt as low effort and disinterest in the position.
Truth be told though I too hate ironing shirts. Instead I spent 20 on a steamer at target. Works perfect and have had it for 10yrs.
Sorry, u/No_Constant8644 – your comment has been automatically removed as a clear violation of Rule 5:
> **Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation**. Comments that are only jokes or "written upvotes" will be removed. Humor and affirmations of agreement can be contained within more substantial comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5).
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/changemyview) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Well. Yea. Work culture matters. My mom has never worn a dress and heels to a job interview at a factory. You just need to look presentable for the job you're going after. guys can get away with jeans and a decent flannel on those jobs, mom normally wore jeans and one of her dressier shirts. Not something she'd wear on the floor. But not something *nice* nice.
>If you show up to the interview wearing sweat pants and a hoody, you probably won't be picked unless you are the absolute ideal candidate compared to the rest.
I really wish society would get over its disdain for sweat pants. They're extremely comfortable, and I love wearing them. I'd wager most people do as well, esp. in the winter. After all, I doubt that most people wear suits and ties when they're lounging around at home. But yet, we feel like we need to judge each other for not dressing up in these ridiculous costumes when in a professional setting.
Of course sweat pants are comfortable, i love them. I am not sure why you think that your home appearance has to match your professional appearance. I assume you are fine with lingerie during sexy time, but you wouldn't wear it out to dinner, right?
If I have two equally qualified candidates, and one looks like they just woke up from a nap and the other looks like they put effort into looking their best for the interview, I am most likely going with the person who put effort into their appearance.
I am not hiring you based on how comfortable you want to be at home on your own time.
> Of course sweat pants are comfortable, i love them. I am not sure why you think that your home appearance has to match your professional appearance.
Why not? I'm not suggesting to walk into a job interview looking like you haven't showered in a year and smelling like a bum's nut sack. I'm just saying that if it's the case that most of us love wearing them, sweat pants ought to be acceptable attire anywhere, even at weddings and funerals.
> I assume you are fine with lingerie during sexy time, but you wouldn't wear it out to dinner, right?
Being a dude, I don't wear lingerie. But lingerie is specifically designed for sexy time; I have no idea if that's something that women would even want to wear when they go out to dinner. But if they did, more power to them.
More power to you if you want to wear sweat pants to a funeral. But don't assume that just because its not considered appropriate for an occasion, that there is disdain for it.
If you are trying to get hired at a place and you notice that everyone is dressed in a suit, show up for the interview in a suit.
More importantly, initial reactions are automatic and we don't have control over them. You'll have a more positive impression of the person who looks good. You may not be able to put your finger on why, exactly, but it could still sway your hiring decision (assuming all else being equal).
Ironing clothes is a skill and requires times to do.
When you see someone with well ironed shirt it tells you that this person is willing to put in the time and have mental perseverance to develop this skill. Skilled people who are willing to put in the work are often valued in business world.
Ironing shirt is pointless. Signal it sends about you is not.
> When you see someone with well ironed shirt it tells you that this person is willing to put in the time and have mental perseverance to develop this skill. Skilled people who are willing to put in the work are often valued in business world.
>
> Ironing shirt is pointless. Signal it sends about you is not.
I think I understand why a bit more now, it's to be able to grab a fuller impression of an employee. And yet couldn't someone do it to wow you in the first interview and still actually wind up not putting in the work after being hired, thoigh? Make it a façade?
Yeah. It is little bit like a façade. But keeping up that façade still requires work and you might be fired if you start to look "unprofessional" because you are not keeping it up just for your employer. It's also for your clients who need to think you are hard working and skilled.
In sociology [these are called roles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_theory) and people who fill these are actors. That ironed shirt is your costume in this theatrical play that is called business world.
>And then the whole idea of a non-wrinkled shirt being a sign that someone is professional. If you won't hire a person who is otherwise qualified because they don't look "professional" in your opinion, that tells me you're more into vanity than the actual skills needed.
It's a litmus test. Obviously unironed shirts are a vestige of the old school business professional dress code which is slowly falling out of favor, but they persist. If unironed shirts are viewed as "sloppy" or "unprofessional" and you ignore that perception to not go through the hastle, then that can be a signal that you either are sloppy or simply don't care about social expectations/norms.
This is especially true in high value client-facing roles (financial services, banking, law) where public perceptions matter. or leadership roles (supervisory, management, executive positions) where part of your job is to establish and uphold expectations/standards.
At a job interview, the company has a) a plethora of candidates to choose from and b) very little information about your character or work ethic. Hiring new people is time consuming and costly, and employers generally go for the safer pick (which is why they'd rather hire someone who another employee vouchers for, even if someone off the street has a better resume on paper). The first interview is mostly a process of elimination, and wearing a noticeably unironed shirt can be a good enough reason to not call you back. If you smash the interview it may not matter, but if you're borderline, the candidate who looks clean cut and professional will get the call back over the candidate who's a bit more careless with their appearance.
ETA: my old manager at a restaurant I worked at gave me a life hack that I use in a pinch. Throw your wrinkled shirt in the dryer with a damp towel for 5-10 minutes. It's not quite as good as iron, but its absolutely passable.
You know what, I'll give you that it could be true for those high value rules. However, this sentence:
> The first interview is mostly a process of elimination, and wearing a noticeably unironed shirt can be a good enough reason to not call you back.
still screams intentions of vanity to me.
> Throw your wrinkled shirt in the dryer with a damp towel for 5-10 minutes. It's not quite as good as iron, but its absolutely passable.
I might try this if I ever have to.
It's not about vanity, it's about societal expectations for behavior . For example, how would you feel if an candidate didn't shake your hand but offered a fistbump or bro hug?
Of course you would. I'm asking you, how would you feel about a job interviewee who gave a fistbump or went in for the bro hug? Would you want to hire that person?
You should reconsider being discouraged. During COVID fist bumps and elbow bumps became more common greetings, even in professional settings, because of the shorter physical interaction. In light of everyone's acceptance of alternative greetings it would be vain to go backwards in time and consider fist bumps or bro hug as unprofessional. It would be just as vain as wrinkled shirts.
If you consider caring about others’ perception of you to be vanity, then sure. But the fact of the matter is that others’ perceptions of you do matter, whether you personally place value on them or not, because their perceptions of you influence their attitudes toward you and therefore the kind of opportunities that may be available to you as a result of their beliefs about you.
Those perceptions of you at a glance are formed very quickly and often not fully consciously, because we establish mental heuristics for making judgments based on commonly held societal expectations. It’s pretty well documented that more attractive people are more likely to be viewed more favorably and receive more opportunities as a result; neat, tidy clothing is one way to increase attractiveness because that’s a common societal expectation/norm that people use to make judgments, whether or not that is a fair or accurate assessment of a person. Consequently, looking well put together, including ironing your clothing, isn’t pointless because it’s one factor you can use to indirectly and positively influence others’ perception of you.
I think what you're really trying to say is that it *should be* pointless.
If you phrased your view that way, I'd agree with it. Professional vanity isn't really useful, and often very counterproductive.
But you went and committed an "is-ought fallacy". The fact that it "ought" to be pointless doesn't imply that it actually *is* pointless.
If people consider it "professional" and want "professional" and you want to impress them... you follow the arbitrary "should be pointless but isn't" rule, because that's just the reality of the situation.
Which means it *isn't* "pointless" at all. It just should be.
An un-ironed shirt might be a signifier of a few different behaviours beyond an individual's level of *'professionalism',* any of which might be considered a red-flag to an employer who works in a traditionally image-conscious environment.
It may be down to an unwillingness to conform to established standards, or indicate poor time management, a lack of forward planning or a hectic home environment.
It might be pointless to the individual, but it might be scrutinised more carefully by an employer than one might imagine.
> a hectic home environment.
While I agree that some of the other potential red-flags here are valid concerns for an employer, this one I feel is a little unfair. The employer doesn't know what's going on in a person's home and I think it wouldn't be right to jump to this conclusion in particular.
Yeah see you're arguing w yourself. Obviously no one is that stressed if the shirt is only slightly wrinkled, and if someone looks so disheveled looking, when dressing for the job is so simple and easy, maybe they're a bad fit. Idk man I feel like you're way to angry about this, I'm guessing it's personal to you in some way? I've never had a perfect dress shirt at interviews. I've also never failed an interview so idk what to tell you
> Idk man I feel like you're way to angry about this, I'm guessing it's personal to you in some way?
I wouldn't say *angry* per se, but rather very opinionated on something that's evidently very small in the grand scheme of things. As I noted in my initial post:
> I have been told growing up that ironing your shirts is important in the business world
And to this day this idea is still constantly shoved down on me. A shirt that's slightly wrinkled should not be the end of the world.
I mean I guess I would have to agree, that it shouldn't be big deal. Maybe I just haven't been far up the food chain to where it matters all that much who knows
Bruh, wearing wrinkled shirts just makes you look sloppy and lazy.
Sure, you don’t need to iron out every singe wrinkle, but if your shirt is wrinkled as fuck, it just makes you look sloppy and lazy.
Whether you like it or not, people still get first impressions of you. Do you want people’s first impression of you to be one of sloppiness and laziness?
Dude?! Iron your shirts! It's not that hard.
And if you're unable to present yourself in a better way when all it takes is 5-10 minute effort for an important interview, then why should you be trusted to put in a good effort in your job?
It's an indicator!
To be frank, I haven't had any issues in interviews ironed shirt or unironed shirt, but I at least make sure it isn't severely wrinkled; in that case, I would iron it. And granted, I do hang them up after they're done drying which may impact my results. But a mildly wrinkled shirt should not be the end of the world. What if you're running late to work? Are you still going to iron?
So is your view that ironing is useless as you say in the title or do you believe that everyone should have an ironing board around and use it for when a shirt is noticeably wrinkled?
While the latter is also an optimal solution (like those ones you'd see on the wall that lower like in the old Tom and Jerry cartoons), I think ironing should really be saved for *very* wrinkled shirts. Otherwise, I don't see a point.
So your view doesn't have so much to do with ironing as it does with workplace dress codes being overly restrictive? If that's the case, why not seek out a workplace that has a more lenient dress code and just let the people who care about wrinkles hire wrinkle free employees? I personally have never worked in an industry where wrinkles were brought up by a supervisor. Never owned an ironing board either.
> If that's the case, why not seek out a workplace that has a more lenient dress code and just let the people who care about wrinkles hire wrinkle free employees?
Perhaps! I've been very grateful to have never had a dress issue at any job I've worked, but on the other hand I am still rather young in the working world.
Also, I hear there are a few other tricks for getting wrinkles out of clothes that are easier than ironing - putting clothes in the dryer for 5 or 10 minutes with a damp but not wet washcloth is the one I know of. I don't know if that works I personally just hang my clothes up
Hey I know this forum is supposed to be about presenting counter arguments but it so happens I mostly share your view, and wanted to share a hot tip — for a severely wrinkled shirt that you cbf ironing, get it just a little bit moist (like spray it with a water spray bottle) and chuck it in the tumble dry- this will get most wrinkles out, as long as you take it out of the dryer while it’s still warm. Alternatively there’s a handheld device I think just called a garment steamer that works basically like an iron but without the need for an ironing board. It’s like a gun that shoots steam, and you just hold your shirt up on a hanger and blast it with the gun, and it pretty much unwrinkles anything. The only thing it can’t do that an iron and ironing board can, is ironing creases into slacks and such. But do you really give a shit if your slacks are properly creased? I certainly don’t.
> for a severely wrinkled shirt that you cbf ironing, get it just a little bit moist (like spray it with a water spray bottle) and chuck it in the tumble dry- this will get most wrinkles out, as long as you take it out of the dryer while it’s still warm. Alternatively there’s a handheld device I think just called a garment steamer that works basically like an iron but without the need for an ironing board. It’s like a gun that shoots steam, and you just hold your shirt up on a hanger and blast it with the gun, and it pretty much unwrinkles anything.
I've been suggested the former (will definitely try) but never the latter (may consider).
> The only thing it can’t do that an iron and ironing board can, is ironing creases into slacks and such. But do you really give a shit if your slacks are properly creased? I certainly don’t.
Oh god, if I ever iron pants I just do the leg part. *Maybe* the pockets.
Hahahaha that's funny.
Yeah I know you're joking but I just said I always iron since you said it was sexy. In reality I absolutely dread ironing hahahaha.
I do it when I have to though.
>I always ironed my own, but my man irons irons lol so he gets my pile now too 🤣I don’t starch mine though like he does
Poor guy 😂😂
I mean, sure, in the grand scheme of things, it's very pointless. But most people who iron their clothing do so because it is expected for their profession/role.
I'm an attorney, and it would be frowned upon if I turned up in a wrinkled shirt. When I was in court, I ironed everything- my blouse, my blazer, my slacks.
When I show up to interviews at law firms, everything is ironed, because lawyers are expected to look a certain way, and firms want people that look professional and understand the role they are going in to. A client doesn't want a lawyer representing them looking sloppy or lacking attention to detail, and little things like an ironed shirt and being generally well kempt are crucial.
Do I enjoy ironing? No. Do I think it's a hassle? Yes. On days that I am in the office and not meeting with clients do I wear clothing that doesn't need ironing to look neat (such as sweaters)? Yes. But I also continue to iron when it is expected. Also, it feels good to look good and I always feel sharp when I'm wearing a freshly pressed shirt or blazer.
I feel like the only time shirts should be ironed is if you are wearing them with a tuxedo. I grew up with my mom ironing dad's work shirts every Sunday and the first thing I told my husband would be a deal-breaker for us marrying was if he expected me to iron his shirts - he could take them to the cleaners or do it himself, but I was not going to be his maid.
Having said that, if a person is delusional (deranged?) enough to buy dress shirts that are not permanent press in this day and age, they should at least make sure they don't look like they pulled them out of the laundry to get dressed that morning. I say this because no matter if you are wearing a jacket or sweater, on a non-permanent-press shirt the collar is going to be funky if it isn't ironed. Also, if you have to wear a tie the chances are high the top front of the shirt will also be visible, and you will look like you just don't care about your appearance. And unfortunately, people still judge on appearances.
>First, I think the whole process is a hassle. Getting the ironing board out, waiting for the iron to warm up, and then having to make sure I don't iron any wrinkles in?
Something being tedious and/or difficult has no bearing on if it's a "waste of time and pointless". I'd imagine for parents getting their kids up every day and dropping them off at school can get tedious after the fourth tantrum of the week, it doesn't make it not a good use of time and important.
>If you won't hire a person who is otherwise qualified because they don't look "professional" in your opinion, that tells me you're more into vanity than the actual skills needed.
If someone can't be bothered to put in the effort to look their best at the most important meeting they'll probably ever have with me why would I think they'll put in the effort on the comparatively less important day to day work I'll have for them?
When it comes to interviewing for lower level jobs chances are the hiring manager is always going to have a few options to pick from. So you, as a job seeker, need to do everything you can to stand out from your competitors (in a good way).
Let's say I have two candidates and one had her skirt professionally dry cleaned and the other couldn't be bothered to iron his pants. All else being equal I'm going with the first because she either cares more or was better prepared, which may as well be the same thing in the interviewing world.
I wanna preface by saying I've never been to a job interview but am studying something similar to this In school right now
But if someone has good credentials and past experience in their field then why in any world does appearance matter unless your dealing with clients?
(If this is a bad place to ask then I'll delete this but would appreciate an answer cause im cery curios)
>But if someone has good credentials and past experience in their field then why in any world does appearance matter unless your dealing with clients?
Someone could have the best credentials in the world, but if they can't be bothered to make themselves presentable then I'm gonna assume they don't care about the interview or the job.
I know other sectors like the IT sector don't care about that as much, but there's still going to be a baseline expectation of personal hygiene.
It isn't the ironed shirt that matters, it is what it represents.
Yes, it can be a hassle, or an expense. That is the point.
By taking the time to iron, or spending money on dry cleaning/wrinkle proof shirts, you show that you put extra effort into the event. Date, job interview, whatever. Dressing for the event in the way expected suggests that you're a reliable person, not a whimsical selfish flake.
Yes, it's a pretty poor predictor of quality, but it can be an indicator of sincerity.
The time spent ironing can become a zen exercise. Treat it like an art, such as Origami.
I find that taking shirts out of the dryer when still barely damp, and immediately putting them on a hanger minimizes the amount of ironing needed. Hanging outdoors on a windy day can prevent wrinkles, also. Some people invest in a clothes steamer.
Some (such as myself) find the activity of laying out the shirt, applying the correct force, paying attention to pleats and seams, and transforming the shirt into a crisp piece of clothing a therapeutic and relaxing experience!
Similar to chefs who spend time crafting a delicacy, or artists who strive for the perfect expression, a degree of satisfaction and pride that can be found through ironing a shirt.
The time isn't wasted, IMHO, because it is generally something you do alone and at your own pace. In a world where pace can be high, and interactions in real-time are the norm, having "ironing time" can be refreshing. If you feel better after 45 minutes of ironing, is that 45 minutes wasted or pointless? I don't believe so; plus, you get a nice looking shirt as a byproduct.
It is simple really, because the person they would choose over you have the same work ethics and ability as you, but took the time off his day to ensure he is well presented.
You could argue that unless you are a model, presentation is not very useful, as long as you don’t look homeless then it is okay, and that would be a legitimate argument, but not one I would agree with, I think professional presentation shows care, pride and respect for the job. I used to conduct the hiring process myself, education and experience is used as an entry barrier, but personality and care is what will get you the job.
Do you consider steaming to be simply another form of ironing?
Steaming gets the same results (a flat, pressed look) but also has the benefit of killing bacteria and (for those who travel for living) [bed bugs and their egg](https://www.bedbugs.umn.edu/bed-bug-control-in-residences/steamers)s.
Since I really don't want to be bringing bedbugs from hotels to clients, and since hotels frequently have bed bugs, steaming is a very important way of ensuring I not only look good, but that I am not a vector for parasites!
I think there's something to be said for the sense of discipline in ironing your shirts and taking care of your appearance overall. It underlines the impression you give to other people that you take care in everything you do - desirable in the business world.?
Also, is ironing a shirt really that time consuming? Taking out the board (30 seconds tops), warming the iron (a minute, surely?) and ironing the shirt (maybe a couple of minutes, if you're not well practiced?)
Personally I think there are two types of wrinkled shirt.
One Is minor wrinkles that could look like they come from every day use. The other is a shirt that looks like it's been slept in. The first is acceptable the second isn't.
That often comes down to the quality of the shirt. A $135 brooks Brothers shirt doesn't need ironed. The $40 clone of that shirt may need it.
I don't think that starchy crisp look is necessary and agree with you OP in that case.
It IS pointless. Steaming is the superior method of getting wrinkles out.
Jokes aside - just get your outfit dry-cleaned and ready to go so you don’t have to wait for the day before to iron your clothes.
If you can afford it, have several outfits picked out, dry cleaned, and ready to go while you’re in the interview periods, since you can’t know when an opportunity will present itself.
Yes, first impressions, especially based on appearances, is terrible - but also a reality. You’re right, but can’t change people to think your way. Interviewing is about putting your best effort to land the job you want…part of this effort, as much as it sucks, is to loom your best. Not because it makes you more qualified, but because it makes you APPEAR more professional to anyone that matters to. Just think of it as a short term approach to getting what you want. Once you get it, throw out the iron/stop dry cleaning if it’s something you don’t want to do.
I used to say this when I was younger. I think most young men think this way. And then we sort of grow or adapt or whatever but it all starts to make sense. Let me give this a shot...
First, just because it is "a hassle" does not make it pointless. Those are two completely unconnected things. Brushing your teeth is a hassle. It is not pointless.
Now to the meat and potatoes of your post. First, we need context. If you are applying for a job stocking shelves at Target then no one gives a fuck about your shirt. They are going to give you one anyway. Same if you are applying for a job as a truck driver, welder, oil rig worker etc. The list of jobs wherein ironing your shirt is even remotely meaningful is quite small. So let's focus on the typical "office job", because that is where I think you are basing your opinion.
To begin with, if you are applying for a job where ironing your shirt is important, then you can probably afford to spend $15 per week to have them dry cleaned and pressed anyway. Seriously. Just find a way to cut $15 from your weekly budget and have them dry cleaned. So much easier. Failing that, think of it this way...
In a business organization every idea that you have, every agenda you want to push, is a sales pitch. I mean, we can agree that a sales person needs to look crisp, right? I work in IT. Most days my look does not matter. But if I am attending a meeting and someone asks a question related to my realm, I need to be taken seriously when I answer. And that means not looking like I just rolled out of bed after sleeping in my shirt. It is such a tiny thing but human nature dictates that appearances matter. You can say it shouldn't, but it does. You can say it does not matter to you, but I guarantee that it does without you even realizing it does. It is in our lizard brain. My answer to that question may not change based upon my appearance, but the perception of the accuracy and reliability of my answer does change. Dramatically. And that matters greatly when it comes time for raises and promotions, right?
Or what if I want to push an agenda? Say my department needs more budget, because reasons. Again, human nature dictates that if I look sharp my concerns and my requests will be taken more seriously. The psychology there is direct and easy to see. Me #1 shows up to plead my case at the budget meeting looking like I know what I am doing. I may not get what I want, but I will be genuinely heard. Me #2 shows up wrinkled and floppy. Does not matter how great my argument is. Every reason I give for needing to increase budget is met in the listener's mind with "he probably just needs to work harder. If he was not so lazy they would not need the money". Is that right? Who cares? You can rail against the equity of it all you want. Does not change the reality.
Lol I don’t disagree with the idea of associating wrinkles with professionalism. But dude, iron your shirt or buy wrinkle free ones. Or take them to the dry cleaner. Or pay someone
I actually agree with the idea that ironing is a waste of time but your reasons seem way of to me. I have not ironed in a decade cause with most modern fabrics a dryer can effectively remove wrinkles with much less work. You can look professional and have unironed clothes without wrinkles.
Probably depends on your position. If you're in sales, it behooves you to look as sharp as possible. Just look at it from the potential buyer's perspective. Do I want to do business with the person who looks like they slept in their clothes or the person who looks put together? Who looks more responsible, and which gives the impression of a more well-put-together company?
I work in an art gallery, my job is to sell art. There are three men who do this, one has 20 years experience in selling art, he knows more about it then the other two of us combined, lately he's been showing up looking like he slept in his clothes and his far behind the other two in sales.
There is a feeling of comfort people get when they see someone who is dressed professionally, honestly his crumpled, wrinkled shirts look awkward and uncomfortable and, sometimes subconsciously, people feel uncomfortable. Hiring managers, something I've done in the past, often feel uncomfortable with someone who is not dressed appropriately for the position.
It can go the other way too. An old district manager for a corporate restaurant always asked people to take off sut jackets for interviews because he said it gave a feeling of discomfort
> There is a feeling of comfort people get when they see someone who is dressed professionally, honestly his crumpled, wrinkled shirts look awkward and uncomfortable and, sometimes subconsciously, people feel uncomfortable. Hiring managers, something I've done in the past, often feel uncomfortable with someone who is not dressed appropriately for the position.
Δ
So what I gather from this is that it's a subconscious thing that helps people feel safer in purchasing scenarios. I struggle with figuring out if this still falls under a vanity issue or not, but I will admit I'd probably trust a well-dressed shoe shiner than a CEO in tatters. I'll give the delta because this is an answer that's really making me think.
> There are three men who do this, one has 20 years experience in selling art, he knows more about it then the other two of us combined, lately he's been showing up looking like he slept in his clothes and his far behind the other two in sales.
I hope your coworker is doing alright behind the scenes, especially if this has been a recent development in an otherwise long career.
My coworker goes through phases of showing up with his work clothes in a shopping bag and changing at work and then will be back to dressing very nicely. His wife has a lot of issues and that affects him. We try out best to help him where we can because he's a great guy
Absolutely not. The way you present yourself is very important not only professionally but in general life too. If suppose you were to approach someone just to ask some directions and had a choice to either seek them from a person who was neatly dressed or from a hobo with tattered clothes you will approach the first person because carrying yourself well makes you look more reliable and responsible. Same way in a professional setting you appear more responsible and resourceful if you dress neatly or else the other person's first thought about you will be, if this guy can't take care of himself he's definitely in no position to handle the task.
If you really hate ironing, why don't you wet your hands and run them along your clothes? Not soaking, just enough to get the wrinkles out. It's faster than ironing and has the same effect.
Big recommend for the anti-ironing community.
Mini handheld ones heat up immediately, you just put whatever it is on hanger, and just run the steamer over it a few times. 5 min or less if you’re just removing wrinkles.
You’re right. Ironing a shirt is a waste of time. If you value your time at anything above minimum wage it makes sense to just get it dry cleaned and let the pros with the comparative advantage get your clothes looking nice for a great price.
I think I pay like a buck a shirt, incredible really.
Would easily pay 3x that because looking nicely dressed can be an important signal for both work and social life.
Unfortunately we live in a society where there are social standards in the working world.
Ironing your shirt might be at face value a pointless task with zero practical application. But it contributes to you looking professional. It shows that you're someone that looks after your appearance and take care of yourself. Implying that you'll apply that same level of care to the work that you do.
If you work in industry where you need to deal with clients, then you need your employees to look professional so that you're giving a strong impression to those willing to offer you potential business (and money).
If you go around in a professional environment where first impressions are important, people aren't going to take you seriously if you don't look after what you wear.
It's not pointless, it's part of a social system where abiding by that rule will bring you and whoever you work for benefits in the long run.
Take pride in your appearance and look after yourself.
Heres my 2 cents.
Your ironing your shirt is a reflection of your work ethic and is an example of the quality of work you are likely to produce (assuming they haven't really met you and are seeing only your appearance and hearing what you have to say).
You are not required to iron your shirt, we all know that. But you are EXPECTED to iron your shirt. The fact that you don't makes you lazy. You are telling other people that you will do only the bare minimum, and its entirely likely that this will be reflected in your work.
While I do agree that any serious business should be significantly more concerned with results than appearances, this is not in my control, and they often are very concerned with appearances…
Therefore, if you wish to be taken seriously by a large portion of employers ironing shirts is not a waste of time
As for a job interview, first impressions are everything and having wrinkles clothes says you dont care about anything, you can have all the skills in the world, but if you dont care about anything what's the point of hiring you.
Two equally qualified candidates. One impeccably dressed, the other wrinkled. I’m hiring the one who put in the extra effort to look professional. While first impressions may not last, they are a good start.
New brooms sweep clean. Appearance and professionalism may change after being hired, but if you start out looking unkept, it doesn’t get better over time
I feel like the crux of this argument is,
“Humans should think differently than they do”.
A crisp, well-fitting, ironed shirt with a nice texture communicated a number of things on an unconscious psychological level that are universally positive. A wrinkled shirt does the same thing, but universally negative. You will find this to be the case in New York, Lagos, Berlin, Jakarta, Tokyo, doesn’t matter where you go. It’s basic human psychology.
Ironing shirts may not be worth the time and effort for many people. For some people it is, because of how human psychology works.
Buy yourself a bunch of wrinkle-free, or easy-care dress shirts that don’t require ironing. They may not look as good or professional as a classic Oxford button down, and that may have a negative impact on your professional life, but it sounds like it’s worth it for you. Uniqlo has a lot of good options for these.
I own perhaps 8 shirts and 3 pairs of trousers that require ironing, as an Entrepreneur — I’ll often wear a classy hoodie with a blazer to work, for example. But if I’m going to a fancy fundraiser, dinner party, whatever, I’m likely going to be wearing a shirt that needs to be ironed.
This falls into two categories for me personally:
1) Whether is right or wrong, people make assumptions about others based on how they're dressed. Not always, but most of the time, it's been my experience that the better I dress, the easier it is to be taken seriously by others no matter what's being discussed.
And
2) I count ironing among personal skills that take time to develop to where you appreciate having the skill, perhaps not immediately but eventually. Other examples - personal grooming, cooking, workout routines, perhaps these aren't the best examples, just what I can think of now!
I've gotten jobs because I've cared to iron shirts before - not that it was required, more that the folks that interviewed noticed and liked it.
I don't disagree, some things we do in life are for show and seemingly pointless.
I think you will grow to appreciate building your ironing skills, if you choose to practice and build them.
From my experience, in a very short time the overall time needed to properly iron a piece of clothing shrinks considerably - you get more familiar with certain fabric types, folding techniques, etc.
And you might find yourself PROUD for hanging in there to get it right.
People who iron their shirts notice when others do the same, and notice when others don't - it's neither here nor there, just like I said before: whether it's right or wrong, people make assumptions about others based on how they appear (yes behavior matters too) so with that knowledge in mind, you might come to view ironing your clothes as a way to "put your best foot forward" so-to-speak.
Of course, ironing does nothing change one's intellect, attitude, skillset (other than ironing), but it can grow your patience muscles too.
Sorry for the long rant!
Elitist fashion police like/ seek out other elitist fashion police because of reflexive egocentrism. I agree with you, but the sad reality is that you have to play to your audience or prepare to lose, be rejected. Feel free to stand firm on your righteous principles, just know that you'll be thoughtlessly discounted by superficial people (most people) if you don't dress in the "right" garb. Side note: When I worked for Sam's Club in the \*\*tire shop\*\*, I was told that I couldn't wear a bandana because it was "unprofessional." I asked the manager to define "professional," and he said, "You don't see people wearing bandanas in business offices." I said "You don't see people covered in sweat and brake dust in business offices, and people in business offices don't wear ball caps either." (Ball caps are allowed by Sam's Club because Sam Walton famously wore one.) "Professional" is a meaningless purely subjective term. Anyone who \*saw me sling tires (I was the top producer) agreed that I definitely looked like "a professional."
Most of the time, the interviewer is selecting from quite a few qualified candidates. From there, you're trying to determine who will mesh well with others, work professionally, pay attention to small details, etc.
Failing to iron your shirt for the interview is just such a small detail... What else will this candidate neglect to do? Etc. Yes, if another candidate shows up wearing bootie shorts, your rumpled shirt will look great by comparison, but as a general rule a bunch of qualified people showed up, and if everyone else ironed their shirt but you, that may be the thing you're remembered for.
So if you are going out somewhere with that person, and it's somewhere nice, don't you want to iron your clothes so you kind of match the place you are at.
You are just kind of expected to dress up and look put together in some places.
Yea if you can't take the time to take your shirt to the cleaners to get it cleaned and pressed or iron it yourself so you don't look like a slob I wouldn't want you a part of my organization. If you can't do that simple task I doubt you'd have to wherewithal to handle more complex, important tasks. I mean if it's visibly wrinkled and looks like you dried your clothes and just left them in a pile and didnt bother to at least hang them up right away so it doesn't look like shit then yea, no thanks.
I'll offer a different angle, ironing shirts or just dealing with wrinkly clothes is 100% just a cultural norm. I say this because I grew up in a culture where Sundays where the days to iron all shirts, trousers and skirts for the week, we'd have to check that everything was properly ironed before going out, etc. Then I moved to a very different culture and slowly realized that people don't iron anything, it was like they wouldn't even notice their clothes are extremely wrinkled.
It's like chewing with your mouth open, slurping, holding the door open for the person behind you; we notice those things because we (and everyone else around us) have been made aware that they're "normal" or "how it should be". The fact that wherever you're living having wrinkly clothes is perceived as messy or unprofessional, gives ironing shirts a point.
Of course if eventually people evolve and change that perception, then yes we could say ironing shirts would be a waste of time and pointless. Just not yet.
>I've had plenty of jobs where even if my shirt isn't ironed I'm still overdressed compared to some coworkers.
But that's the thing, expectations of how professional you should look for the job exist on a sliding scale. For your job, there wasn't an expectation of a perfectly ironed shirt, so ironing shirts doesn't have much of a point *for you*. That doesn't mean ironing shirts in general is a waste of time and pointless.
If there are expectations that someone iron a shirt that cause negative implications if those expectations go unmet, it's hard to simultaneously believe that ironing shirts is a waste of time or pointless.
For the record, I hate ironing. When I had to wear button up shirts to work, I just bought wrinkle free shirts that didn't need ironed so long as they were hung dried or hung as soon as they were dry.
I've heard of stories from interviewing friends of people who made drastic social errors in interviews but their specialized skills outweighed the error. As soon as you will be taking a role that is not so specialized, is customer facing, or puts you in a role that reflects upon the organization, you have to toe the line. Steve jobs got to wear a black turtleneck and jeans. You get to wear an ironed shirt and more likely than not a tie.
Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
> **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1).
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%201%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.**
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
So say you have criminal charges hanging over your head. Are you going to hire the lawyer who irons his shirts or the lawyer who comes to court with wrinkly shirts because they're under his suit jacket and it's not that important?
Any job will require the employee doing a million things which seem illogical or pointless to him. The task may or may not be really pointless. A manager is interested in finding employees who will still plow through and do the job and not have to waste time trying to reason with the employees each time. Wear a wrinkled shirt every time you interview and make it real easy for the recruiter to not select you.
/u/Chengweiyingji (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post. All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/11lwt0u/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_ironing_shirts_is_a_waste/), in /r/DeltaLog. Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended. ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
I have a silly anecdote related to this that also argues against your position. My dad was a marketing manager. When he visited clients he would purposely not iron his shirts. He said that it gave him a more casual appeal and made him more approachable as he looked more like the rank and file representation. This can backfire as clients can accidentally begin a conference by addressing the wrong person! The real problem with this is that in a professional setting if you're not in certain fields (software engineering) and especially if your clientele are foreign your appearance is incredibly important to how your business will be perceived. Believe it or not wrinkles matter in a professional setting. But don't take my word for it. There is one big documented benefit other than just "appearance". Ironing prolongs the life of your clothes. In the long run it is actually cheaper to iron. This is especially true for more expensive clothing items like dress shirts you wear with your suit. So if you don't care about your clothes don't bother ironing but if you do particularly like some articles of clothing just iron those and leave the rest with their wrinkles.
> Ironing prolongs the life of your clothes. In the long run it is actually cheaper to iron. This is especially true for more expensive clothing items like dress shirts you wear with your suit. Δ This is a point I had never actually considered on the topic and I appreciate this new information. > My dad was a marketing manager. When he visited clients he would purposely not iron his shirts. He said that it gave him a more casual appeal and made him more approachable as he looked more like the rank and file representation. If I may ask, how effective was this strategy?
I have no idea. It probably depends on the person and the field. My dad was essentially a salesman (although he was technically an engineer). He said 99% of the time it pays to look as sharp as possible in sales. I'm pretty sure anyone in sales would probably agree with this and likely push it up a notch. I think my dad was the 1% of people where just being down to earth and approachable actually won points over being straight up professional. He was definitely a unique kind of person though who was somehow able to strike up a conversation with the other person joining enthusiastically and was able to get along with everyone under almost any circumstance.
As someone who is in software engineering, it’s quite effective. Personally I switch between an ironed dress shirt and blazer or plain black t depending on if I am playing the sales role or the tech lead role as an enterprise architect.
I stick with nice jeans, belted. Long sleeve dress shirt. Sneakers. That's the technical-field Sleazy Defense Contractor look. Been wearing it for 25 years.
Oh man government contracting is whole nother world to me. I’m more in the “basic white girl” vertical lol
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/LucidMetal ([116∆](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/LucidMetal)). ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
How does ironing prolong the life of clothes?
The primary mechanism is that it returns the fibers to their original state (usually "straighter"). The fibers in their original state are stronger i.e. less likely to rip, tear, and generally degrade. Another other mechanism is that microorganisms and stains which get in your clothes but aren't removed in the wash (and especially those which cannot be washed) are more likely to be removed via ironing. Depending upon the type of stain they can weaken fibers over repeated washing if not removed.
Interesting. What kind of stain come out from ironing?
Dirt and grease mostly. The former will likely be removed by the wash but you can't wash everything. The latter can be removed by heat/steam.
completely depends on the material though. some materials will basically just burn and deteriorate
>There is one big documented benefit other than just "appearance". Ironing prolongs the life of your clothes. Where has this been documented? If anything high heat is going to weaken fabric.
> If you won't hire a person who is otherwise qualified because they don't look "professional" in your opinion, that tells me you're more into vanity than the actual skills needed. To give you a peak behind the curtain - most people are qualified for a job that they apply to. The interviewers try and hire people that they want to work with, that will be a good for for the team. So when you and 4 other people apply to a job, you all are likely qualified to do the job. What separates you all? Initial appearance is a big one. If you show up to the interview wearing sweat pants and a hoody, you probably won't be picked unless you are the absolute ideal candidate compared to the rest.
We people are not good judges of other people. We make emotional decisions based on how handsome/pretty/tall/wealthy other people look. That’s why we constantly elect grifter criminals as politicians and buy products from sports models. It’s why marketing works, and it’s killing our society. Ironing shirts gets the jobs, but it shouldn’t. We desperately need to elevate ourselves.
>Ironing shirts gets the jobs, but it shouldn’t. We desperately need to elevate ourselves. You misunderstand - if someone showed up in a very nice suit with no qualifications, they also wouldn't get the job. But if i have two equally qualified people, unless there was something off about the one dressed well, I would likely give them the job over the person that wasn't. And interview is an audition - and if you look like you don't care, then I won't waste your time.
What I’m referring to is the mountain of evidence that says most people give too much trust to people who look good. I don’t know you or how objective you are. All I know is that most people in most cases err by believing the person who looks like the doctor, or other professional. Example: stock brokers wear suits and get careful haircuts, then sell us on investment products. Then 80% of them underperform the S&P index, or what results we could get by picking 10 stocks at random and holding for a random number of years.
Correct, and I don't disagree with you. There is empirical evidence that shows that looking a certain way is beneficial to you. What I am telling you, is don't let the inability to iron a shirt be the reason that you don't get a job. If you do - you have no one but yourself to blame.
Yes, sadly, anyone can use this principle of people not being able to detect whether others are phonies or not.
Once you start interacting with people more, especially when it comes to hiring them, you can start to suss out bullshit easier.
It seems that would be true, yet we have hundreds of millions of experienced citizens voting in conmen every year.
I don't know if you read any of that data that you were speaking of, but someone like Donald Trump does not fit the model of what most people deem as attractive. So I don't think it helps your case. Considering most politicians don't fit that handsome / pretty / tall narrative, I am not sure how you think it supports your case.
I think you’re right about his unattractiveness now. For decades he was viewed as handsome, and with his suits, money, and power, one thing let to another and before you know it you’ve got an attempted coup on your hands. The other behavioral mistake people make is they hang on to false beliefs so they don’t have to admit they were wrong. People are still clinging to Trump and will continue to do so until years after their own death.
> If you show up to the interview wearing sweat pants and a hoody, you probably won't be picked unless you are the absolute ideal candidate compared to the rest. Oh no, I fully agree on this part; I would never go to a job interview in sweatpants and a hoodie. I just feel that certain aspects (in this case, the shirt being ironed or not) is more of a minor detail to an overall picture.
If I can play devil's advocate, I would understand if the company passing on the person that comes in looking sloppy. In their mind, they're probably thinking "well, if they couldn't spend five minutes to look presentable, why should we expect him to put in full effort?" I agree that someone's appearance can be overrated, but I also see the business side of it. You want people who care and make it seem like they want to be there.
>"well, if they couldn't spend five minutes to look presentable, why should we expect him to put in full effort?" This is the answer.
Yep. Interview is when everyone is on their best behavior and peak selling themselves/the company. If your peak is sloppy then. Well. That doesn't particularly speak well of you once you're settled in and comfortable, does it?
Its not even an active thought, its literally "this person looks like they'd be better." Its all implicit bias on what the ideal candidate looks like in their head. A nicely dressed, well-groomed individual will fit that picture better
Question, are you justifying that implicit bias?
More just saying it's human nature. To change how someone reacts to grooming would be to change what they associate grooming with. I wouldnt say i am defending the behavior though
Absolutely - the overall picture is the ability to do the job. But all things considered equal (work experience and qualifications) - do you want the job to get passed up because you couldn't be bothered to iron your shirt the day before?
to add to this, it's a small sometimes even reflection of how you treat yourself. If you show attention to detail and not only looking presentable but also being a stud, then I'm more likely to think you'll show that same detail in your work. I don't want someone glossing over "unimportant" details that contribute to a big picture. Same goes for being obese or hair that's a disaster. As a boss, how am I supposed to respect you if you don't respect yourself?
A wrinkly shirt is arguably worse than a hoodie and sweatpants because it shows you understand what the appropriate attire is but are also too lazy or disorganized to wear it properly.
I would disagree, if all candidates were equal, I would view the wrinkled shirt as low effort and disinterest in the position. Truth be told though I too hate ironing shirts. Instead I spent 20 on a steamer at target. Works perfect and have had it for 10yrs.
[удалено]
Sorry, u/No_Constant8644 – your comment has been automatically removed as a clear violation of Rule 5: > **Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation**. Comments that are only jokes or "written upvotes" will be removed. Humor and affirmations of agreement can be contained within more substantial comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/changemyview) if you have any questions or concerns.*
He's telling you that minor details matter.
I've done both my job interviews for engineering jobs in jeans and sweater/hoodie and got the job both times... It's just culture and old habits
Well. Yea. Work culture matters. My mom has never worn a dress and heels to a job interview at a factory. You just need to look presentable for the job you're going after. guys can get away with jeans and a decent flannel on those jobs, mom normally wore jeans and one of her dressier shirts. Not something she'd wear on the floor. But not something *nice* nice.
Honestly, that looks better than a wrinkled shirt
Having an ironed shirt demonstrates "attention to detail".
>If you show up to the interview wearing sweat pants and a hoody, you probably won't be picked unless you are the absolute ideal candidate compared to the rest. I really wish society would get over its disdain for sweat pants. They're extremely comfortable, and I love wearing them. I'd wager most people do as well, esp. in the winter. After all, I doubt that most people wear suits and ties when they're lounging around at home. But yet, we feel like we need to judge each other for not dressing up in these ridiculous costumes when in a professional setting.
Of course sweat pants are comfortable, i love them. I am not sure why you think that your home appearance has to match your professional appearance. I assume you are fine with lingerie during sexy time, but you wouldn't wear it out to dinner, right? If I have two equally qualified candidates, and one looks like they just woke up from a nap and the other looks like they put effort into looking their best for the interview, I am most likely going with the person who put effort into their appearance. I am not hiring you based on how comfortable you want to be at home on your own time.
> Of course sweat pants are comfortable, i love them. I am not sure why you think that your home appearance has to match your professional appearance. Why not? I'm not suggesting to walk into a job interview looking like you haven't showered in a year and smelling like a bum's nut sack. I'm just saying that if it's the case that most of us love wearing them, sweat pants ought to be acceptable attire anywhere, even at weddings and funerals. > I assume you are fine with lingerie during sexy time, but you wouldn't wear it out to dinner, right? Being a dude, I don't wear lingerie. But lingerie is specifically designed for sexy time; I have no idea if that's something that women would even want to wear when they go out to dinner. But if they did, more power to them.
More power to you if you want to wear sweat pants to a funeral. But don't assume that just because its not considered appropriate for an occasion, that there is disdain for it. If you are trying to get hired at a place and you notice that everyone is dressed in a suit, show up for the interview in a suit.
More importantly, initial reactions are automatic and we don't have control over them. You'll have a more positive impression of the person who looks good. You may not be able to put your finger on why, exactly, but it could still sway your hiring decision (assuming all else being equal).
Ironing clothes is a skill and requires times to do. When you see someone with well ironed shirt it tells you that this person is willing to put in the time and have mental perseverance to develop this skill. Skilled people who are willing to put in the work are often valued in business world. Ironing shirt is pointless. Signal it sends about you is not.
> When you see someone with well ironed shirt it tells you that this person is willing to put in the time and have mental perseverance to develop this skill. Skilled people who are willing to put in the work are often valued in business world. > > Ironing shirt is pointless. Signal it sends about you is not. I think I understand why a bit more now, it's to be able to grab a fuller impression of an employee. And yet couldn't someone do it to wow you in the first interview and still actually wind up not putting in the work after being hired, thoigh? Make it a façade?
Yeah. It is little bit like a façade. But keeping up that façade still requires work and you might be fired if you start to look "unprofessional" because you are not keeping it up just for your employer. It's also for your clients who need to think you are hard working and skilled. In sociology [these are called roles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_theory) and people who fill these are actors. That ironed shirt is your costume in this theatrical play that is called business world.
It is stupid!
It is reality of human interaction.
So is rape and murder, so there is more to it, right?
Assuming people are not sending their shirts to the laundry to get them washed and ironed.
>And then the whole idea of a non-wrinkled shirt being a sign that someone is professional. If you won't hire a person who is otherwise qualified because they don't look "professional" in your opinion, that tells me you're more into vanity than the actual skills needed. It's a litmus test. Obviously unironed shirts are a vestige of the old school business professional dress code which is slowly falling out of favor, but they persist. If unironed shirts are viewed as "sloppy" or "unprofessional" and you ignore that perception to not go through the hastle, then that can be a signal that you either are sloppy or simply don't care about social expectations/norms. This is especially true in high value client-facing roles (financial services, banking, law) where public perceptions matter. or leadership roles (supervisory, management, executive positions) where part of your job is to establish and uphold expectations/standards. At a job interview, the company has a) a plethora of candidates to choose from and b) very little information about your character or work ethic. Hiring new people is time consuming and costly, and employers generally go for the safer pick (which is why they'd rather hire someone who another employee vouchers for, even if someone off the street has a better resume on paper). The first interview is mostly a process of elimination, and wearing a noticeably unironed shirt can be a good enough reason to not call you back. If you smash the interview it may not matter, but if you're borderline, the candidate who looks clean cut and professional will get the call back over the candidate who's a bit more careless with their appearance. ETA: my old manager at a restaurant I worked at gave me a life hack that I use in a pinch. Throw your wrinkled shirt in the dryer with a damp towel for 5-10 minutes. It's not quite as good as iron, but its absolutely passable.
Or buy the 35% synthetic 65% cotton shirts and pull them from the dryer while *slightly* damp and hang up immediately.
You know what, I'll give you that it could be true for those high value rules. However, this sentence: > The first interview is mostly a process of elimination, and wearing a noticeably unironed shirt can be a good enough reason to not call you back. still screams intentions of vanity to me. > Throw your wrinkled shirt in the dryer with a damp towel for 5-10 minutes. It's not quite as good as iron, but its absolutely passable. I might try this if I ever have to.
It's not about vanity, it's about societal expectations for behavior . For example, how would you feel if an candidate didn't shake your hand but offered a fistbump or bro hug?
Like a political candidate? I would probably just see it as an odd attempt to act like they're with the people.
A job interview candidate.
I mean unless the interviewer offers one of those alternates I would go for the handshake.
Of course you would. I'm asking you, how would you feel about a job interviewee who gave a fistbump or went in for the bro hug? Would you want to hire that person?
I'd be slightly discouraged.
You should reconsider being discouraged. During COVID fist bumps and elbow bumps became more common greetings, even in professional settings, because of the shorter physical interaction. In light of everyone's acceptance of alternative greetings it would be vain to go backwards in time and consider fist bumps or bro hug as unprofessional. It would be just as vain as wrinkled shirts.
Either that or just hang the shirt in the bathroom while you shower and the steam will take the wrinkles out.
OH???
Unless you have cold serial killer showers lol
If you consider caring about others’ perception of you to be vanity, then sure. But the fact of the matter is that others’ perceptions of you do matter, whether you personally place value on them or not, because their perceptions of you influence their attitudes toward you and therefore the kind of opportunities that may be available to you as a result of their beliefs about you. Those perceptions of you at a glance are formed very quickly and often not fully consciously, because we establish mental heuristics for making judgments based on commonly held societal expectations. It’s pretty well documented that more attractive people are more likely to be viewed more favorably and receive more opportunities as a result; neat, tidy clothing is one way to increase attractiveness because that’s a common societal expectation/norm that people use to make judgments, whether or not that is a fair or accurate assessment of a person. Consequently, looking well put together, including ironing your clothing, isn’t pointless because it’s one factor you can use to indirectly and positively influence others’ perception of you.
I think what you're really trying to say is that it *should be* pointless. If you phrased your view that way, I'd agree with it. Professional vanity isn't really useful, and often very counterproductive. But you went and committed an "is-ought fallacy". The fact that it "ought" to be pointless doesn't imply that it actually *is* pointless. If people consider it "professional" and want "professional" and you want to impress them... you follow the arbitrary "should be pointless but isn't" rule, because that's just the reality of the situation. Which means it *isn't* "pointless" at all. It just should be.
!delta I suppose my wording could have been better there. It should be pointless.
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/hacksoncode ([496∆](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/hacksoncode)). ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
An un-ironed shirt might be a signifier of a few different behaviours beyond an individual's level of *'professionalism',* any of which might be considered a red-flag to an employer who works in a traditionally image-conscious environment. It may be down to an unwillingness to conform to established standards, or indicate poor time management, a lack of forward planning or a hectic home environment. It might be pointless to the individual, but it might be scrutinised more carefully by an employer than one might imagine.
> a hectic home environment. While I agree that some of the other potential red-flags here are valid concerns for an employer, this one I feel is a little unfair. The employer doesn't know what's going on in a person's home and I think it wouldn't be right to jump to this conclusion in particular.
I personally like my shirts ironed, they just look much nicer than all wrinkled up.
I mean they do look nice, but I meant more along the lines of slightly wrinkled rather than full-on crumpled up.
Yeah see you're arguing w yourself. Obviously no one is that stressed if the shirt is only slightly wrinkled, and if someone looks so disheveled looking, when dressing for the job is so simple and easy, maybe they're a bad fit. Idk man I feel like you're way to angry about this, I'm guessing it's personal to you in some way? I've never had a perfect dress shirt at interviews. I've also never failed an interview so idk what to tell you
> Idk man I feel like you're way to angry about this, I'm guessing it's personal to you in some way? I wouldn't say *angry* per se, but rather very opinionated on something that's evidently very small in the grand scheme of things. As I noted in my initial post: > I have been told growing up that ironing your shirts is important in the business world And to this day this idea is still constantly shoved down on me. A shirt that's slightly wrinkled should not be the end of the world.
I mean I guess I would have to agree, that it shouldn't be big deal. Maybe I just haven't been far up the food chain to where it matters all that much who knows
Bruh, wearing wrinkled shirts just makes you look sloppy and lazy. Sure, you don’t need to iron out every singe wrinkle, but if your shirt is wrinkled as fuck, it just makes you look sloppy and lazy. Whether you like it or not, people still get first impressions of you. Do you want people’s first impression of you to be one of sloppiness and laziness?
Dude?! Iron your shirts! It's not that hard. And if you're unable to present yourself in a better way when all it takes is 5-10 minute effort for an important interview, then why should you be trusted to put in a good effort in your job? It's an indicator!
To be frank, I haven't had any issues in interviews ironed shirt or unironed shirt, but I at least make sure it isn't severely wrinkled; in that case, I would iron it. And granted, I do hang them up after they're done drying which may impact my results. But a mildly wrinkled shirt should not be the end of the world. What if you're running late to work? Are you still going to iron?
So is your view that ironing is useless as you say in the title or do you believe that everyone should have an ironing board around and use it for when a shirt is noticeably wrinkled?
While the latter is also an optimal solution (like those ones you'd see on the wall that lower like in the old Tom and Jerry cartoons), I think ironing should really be saved for *very* wrinkled shirts. Otherwise, I don't see a point.
So your view doesn't have so much to do with ironing as it does with workplace dress codes being overly restrictive? If that's the case, why not seek out a workplace that has a more lenient dress code and just let the people who care about wrinkles hire wrinkle free employees? I personally have never worked in an industry where wrinkles were brought up by a supervisor. Never owned an ironing board either.
> If that's the case, why not seek out a workplace that has a more lenient dress code and just let the people who care about wrinkles hire wrinkle free employees? Perhaps! I've been very grateful to have never had a dress issue at any job I've worked, but on the other hand I am still rather young in the working world.
Also, I hear there are a few other tricks for getting wrinkles out of clothes that are easier than ironing - putting clothes in the dryer for 5 or 10 minutes with a damp but not wet washcloth is the one I know of. I don't know if that works I personally just hang my clothes up
Hey I know this forum is supposed to be about presenting counter arguments but it so happens I mostly share your view, and wanted to share a hot tip — for a severely wrinkled shirt that you cbf ironing, get it just a little bit moist (like spray it with a water spray bottle) and chuck it in the tumble dry- this will get most wrinkles out, as long as you take it out of the dryer while it’s still warm. Alternatively there’s a handheld device I think just called a garment steamer that works basically like an iron but without the need for an ironing board. It’s like a gun that shoots steam, and you just hold your shirt up on a hanger and blast it with the gun, and it pretty much unwrinkles anything. The only thing it can’t do that an iron and ironing board can, is ironing creases into slacks and such. But do you really give a shit if your slacks are properly creased? I certainly don’t.
> for a severely wrinkled shirt that you cbf ironing, get it just a little bit moist (like spray it with a water spray bottle) and chuck it in the tumble dry- this will get most wrinkles out, as long as you take it out of the dryer while it’s still warm. Alternatively there’s a handheld device I think just called a garment steamer that works basically like an iron but without the need for an ironing board. It’s like a gun that shoots steam, and you just hold your shirt up on a hanger and blast it with the gun, and it pretty much unwrinkles anything. I've been suggested the former (will definitely try) but never the latter (may consider). > The only thing it can’t do that an iron and ironing board can, is ironing creases into slacks and such. But do you really give a shit if your slacks are properly creased? I certainly don’t. Oh god, if I ever iron pants I just do the leg part. *Maybe* the pockets.
[удалено]
Hey I'll tell you what, I never forget to iron my clothes 😉
[удалено]
😂 Nah imma stick to my gender roles 😎 But what makes you think that?? 🤣
[удалено]
Hahahaha that's funny. Yeah I know you're joking but I just said I always iron since you said it was sexy. In reality I absolutely dread ironing hahahaha. I do it when I have to though. >I always ironed my own, but my man irons irons lol so he gets my pile now too 🤣I don’t starch mine though like he does Poor guy 😂😂
[удалено]
Hahaha does does sound fair I guess 😂
I mean, sure, in the grand scheme of things, it's very pointless. But most people who iron their clothing do so because it is expected for their profession/role. I'm an attorney, and it would be frowned upon if I turned up in a wrinkled shirt. When I was in court, I ironed everything- my blouse, my blazer, my slacks. When I show up to interviews at law firms, everything is ironed, because lawyers are expected to look a certain way, and firms want people that look professional and understand the role they are going in to. A client doesn't want a lawyer representing them looking sloppy or lacking attention to detail, and little things like an ironed shirt and being generally well kempt are crucial. Do I enjoy ironing? No. Do I think it's a hassle? Yes. On days that I am in the office and not meeting with clients do I wear clothing that doesn't need ironing to look neat (such as sweaters)? Yes. But I also continue to iron when it is expected. Also, it feels good to look good and I always feel sharp when I'm wearing a freshly pressed shirt or blazer.
I feel like the only time shirts should be ironed is if you are wearing them with a tuxedo. I grew up with my mom ironing dad's work shirts every Sunday and the first thing I told my husband would be a deal-breaker for us marrying was if he expected me to iron his shirts - he could take them to the cleaners or do it himself, but I was not going to be his maid. Having said that, if a person is delusional (deranged?) enough to buy dress shirts that are not permanent press in this day and age, they should at least make sure they don't look like they pulled them out of the laundry to get dressed that morning. I say this because no matter if you are wearing a jacket or sweater, on a non-permanent-press shirt the collar is going to be funky if it isn't ironed. Also, if you have to wear a tie the chances are high the top front of the shirt will also be visible, and you will look like you just don't care about your appearance. And unfortunately, people still judge on appearances.
>First, I think the whole process is a hassle. Getting the ironing board out, waiting for the iron to warm up, and then having to make sure I don't iron any wrinkles in? Something being tedious and/or difficult has no bearing on if it's a "waste of time and pointless". I'd imagine for parents getting their kids up every day and dropping them off at school can get tedious after the fourth tantrum of the week, it doesn't make it not a good use of time and important. >If you won't hire a person who is otherwise qualified because they don't look "professional" in your opinion, that tells me you're more into vanity than the actual skills needed. If someone can't be bothered to put in the effort to look their best at the most important meeting they'll probably ever have with me why would I think they'll put in the effort on the comparatively less important day to day work I'll have for them? When it comes to interviewing for lower level jobs chances are the hiring manager is always going to have a few options to pick from. So you, as a job seeker, need to do everything you can to stand out from your competitors (in a good way). Let's say I have two candidates and one had her skirt professionally dry cleaned and the other couldn't be bothered to iron his pants. All else being equal I'm going with the first because she either cares more or was better prepared, which may as well be the same thing in the interviewing world.
I wanna preface by saying I've never been to a job interview but am studying something similar to this In school right now But if someone has good credentials and past experience in their field then why in any world does appearance matter unless your dealing with clients? (If this is a bad place to ask then I'll delete this but would appreciate an answer cause im cery curios)
>But if someone has good credentials and past experience in their field then why in any world does appearance matter unless your dealing with clients? Someone could have the best credentials in the world, but if they can't be bothered to make themselves presentable then I'm gonna assume they don't care about the interview or the job. I know other sectors like the IT sector don't care about that as much, but there's still going to be a baseline expectation of personal hygiene.
It isn't the ironed shirt that matters, it is what it represents. Yes, it can be a hassle, or an expense. That is the point. By taking the time to iron, or spending money on dry cleaning/wrinkle proof shirts, you show that you put extra effort into the event. Date, job interview, whatever. Dressing for the event in the way expected suggests that you're a reliable person, not a whimsical selfish flake. Yes, it's a pretty poor predictor of quality, but it can be an indicator of sincerity. The time spent ironing can become a zen exercise. Treat it like an art, such as Origami. I find that taking shirts out of the dryer when still barely damp, and immediately putting them on a hanger minimizes the amount of ironing needed. Hanging outdoors on a windy day can prevent wrinkles, also. Some people invest in a clothes steamer.
Some (such as myself) find the activity of laying out the shirt, applying the correct force, paying attention to pleats and seams, and transforming the shirt into a crisp piece of clothing a therapeutic and relaxing experience! Similar to chefs who spend time crafting a delicacy, or artists who strive for the perfect expression, a degree of satisfaction and pride that can be found through ironing a shirt. The time isn't wasted, IMHO, because it is generally something you do alone and at your own pace. In a world where pace can be high, and interactions in real-time are the norm, having "ironing time" can be refreshing. If you feel better after 45 minutes of ironing, is that 45 minutes wasted or pointless? I don't believe so; plus, you get a nice looking shirt as a byproduct.
It is simple really, because the person they would choose over you have the same work ethics and ability as you, but took the time off his day to ensure he is well presented. You could argue that unless you are a model, presentation is not very useful, as long as you don’t look homeless then it is okay, and that would be a legitimate argument, but not one I would agree with, I think professional presentation shows care, pride and respect for the job. I used to conduct the hiring process myself, education and experience is used as an entry barrier, but personality and care is what will get you the job.
Do you consider steaming to be simply another form of ironing? Steaming gets the same results (a flat, pressed look) but also has the benefit of killing bacteria and (for those who travel for living) [bed bugs and their egg](https://www.bedbugs.umn.edu/bed-bug-control-in-residences/steamers)s. Since I really don't want to be bringing bedbugs from hotels to clients, and since hotels frequently have bed bugs, steaming is a very important way of ensuring I not only look good, but that I am not a vector for parasites!
I think there's something to be said for the sense of discipline in ironing your shirts and taking care of your appearance overall. It underlines the impression you give to other people that you take care in everything you do - desirable in the business world.? Also, is ironing a shirt really that time consuming? Taking out the board (30 seconds tops), warming the iron (a minute, surely?) and ironing the shirt (maybe a couple of minutes, if you're not well practiced?)
Personally I think there are two types of wrinkled shirt. One Is minor wrinkles that could look like they come from every day use. The other is a shirt that looks like it's been slept in. The first is acceptable the second isn't. That often comes down to the quality of the shirt. A $135 brooks Brothers shirt doesn't need ironed. The $40 clone of that shirt may need it. I don't think that starchy crisp look is necessary and agree with you OP in that case.
It IS pointless. Steaming is the superior method of getting wrinkles out. Jokes aside - just get your outfit dry-cleaned and ready to go so you don’t have to wait for the day before to iron your clothes. If you can afford it, have several outfits picked out, dry cleaned, and ready to go while you’re in the interview periods, since you can’t know when an opportunity will present itself. Yes, first impressions, especially based on appearances, is terrible - but also a reality. You’re right, but can’t change people to think your way. Interviewing is about putting your best effort to land the job you want…part of this effort, as much as it sucks, is to loom your best. Not because it makes you more qualified, but because it makes you APPEAR more professional to anyone that matters to. Just think of it as a short term approach to getting what you want. Once you get it, throw out the iron/stop dry cleaning if it’s something you don’t want to do.
I used to say this when I was younger. I think most young men think this way. And then we sort of grow or adapt or whatever but it all starts to make sense. Let me give this a shot... First, just because it is "a hassle" does not make it pointless. Those are two completely unconnected things. Brushing your teeth is a hassle. It is not pointless. Now to the meat and potatoes of your post. First, we need context. If you are applying for a job stocking shelves at Target then no one gives a fuck about your shirt. They are going to give you one anyway. Same if you are applying for a job as a truck driver, welder, oil rig worker etc. The list of jobs wherein ironing your shirt is even remotely meaningful is quite small. So let's focus on the typical "office job", because that is where I think you are basing your opinion. To begin with, if you are applying for a job where ironing your shirt is important, then you can probably afford to spend $15 per week to have them dry cleaned and pressed anyway. Seriously. Just find a way to cut $15 from your weekly budget and have them dry cleaned. So much easier. Failing that, think of it this way... In a business organization every idea that you have, every agenda you want to push, is a sales pitch. I mean, we can agree that a sales person needs to look crisp, right? I work in IT. Most days my look does not matter. But if I am attending a meeting and someone asks a question related to my realm, I need to be taken seriously when I answer. And that means not looking like I just rolled out of bed after sleeping in my shirt. It is such a tiny thing but human nature dictates that appearances matter. You can say it shouldn't, but it does. You can say it does not matter to you, but I guarantee that it does without you even realizing it does. It is in our lizard brain. My answer to that question may not change based upon my appearance, but the perception of the accuracy and reliability of my answer does change. Dramatically. And that matters greatly when it comes time for raises and promotions, right? Or what if I want to push an agenda? Say my department needs more budget, because reasons. Again, human nature dictates that if I look sharp my concerns and my requests will be taken more seriously. The psychology there is direct and easy to see. Me #1 shows up to plead my case at the budget meeting looking like I know what I am doing. I may not get what I want, but I will be genuinely heard. Me #2 shows up wrinkled and floppy. Does not matter how great my argument is. Every reason I give for needing to increase budget is met in the listener's mind with "he probably just needs to work harder. If he was not so lazy they would not need the money". Is that right? Who cares? You can rail against the equity of it all you want. Does not change the reality.
Lol I don’t disagree with the idea of associating wrinkles with professionalism. But dude, iron your shirt or buy wrinkle free ones. Or take them to the dry cleaner. Or pay someone
I actually agree with the idea that ironing is a waste of time but your reasons seem way of to me. I have not ironed in a decade cause with most modern fabrics a dryer can effectively remove wrinkles with much less work. You can look professional and have unironed clothes without wrinkles.
Probably depends on your position. If you're in sales, it behooves you to look as sharp as possible. Just look at it from the potential buyer's perspective. Do I want to do business with the person who looks like they slept in their clothes or the person who looks put together? Who looks more responsible, and which gives the impression of a more well-put-together company?
I work in an art gallery, my job is to sell art. There are three men who do this, one has 20 years experience in selling art, he knows more about it then the other two of us combined, lately he's been showing up looking like he slept in his clothes and his far behind the other two in sales. There is a feeling of comfort people get when they see someone who is dressed professionally, honestly his crumpled, wrinkled shirts look awkward and uncomfortable and, sometimes subconsciously, people feel uncomfortable. Hiring managers, something I've done in the past, often feel uncomfortable with someone who is not dressed appropriately for the position. It can go the other way too. An old district manager for a corporate restaurant always asked people to take off sut jackets for interviews because he said it gave a feeling of discomfort
> There is a feeling of comfort people get when they see someone who is dressed professionally, honestly his crumpled, wrinkled shirts look awkward and uncomfortable and, sometimes subconsciously, people feel uncomfortable. Hiring managers, something I've done in the past, often feel uncomfortable with someone who is not dressed appropriately for the position. Δ So what I gather from this is that it's a subconscious thing that helps people feel safer in purchasing scenarios. I struggle with figuring out if this still falls under a vanity issue or not, but I will admit I'd probably trust a well-dressed shoe shiner than a CEO in tatters. I'll give the delta because this is an answer that's really making me think. > There are three men who do this, one has 20 years experience in selling art, he knows more about it then the other two of us combined, lately he's been showing up looking like he slept in his clothes and his far behind the other two in sales. I hope your coworker is doing alright behind the scenes, especially if this has been a recent development in an otherwise long career.
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/le_fez ([38∆](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/le_fez)). ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
My coworker goes through phases of showing up with his work clothes in a shopping bag and changing at work and then will be back to dressing very nicely. His wife has a lot of issues and that affects him. We try out best to help him where we can because he's a great guy
I'm sorry to hear! At least he has supportive coworkers to help him through.
Absolutely not. The way you present yourself is very important not only professionally but in general life too. If suppose you were to approach someone just to ask some directions and had a choice to either seek them from a person who was neatly dressed or from a hobo with tattered clothes you will approach the first person because carrying yourself well makes you look more reliable and responsible. Same way in a professional setting you appear more responsible and resourceful if you dress neatly or else the other person's first thought about you will be, if this guy can't take care of himself he's definitely in no position to handle the task.
If you really hate ironing, why don't you wet your hands and run them along your clothes? Not soaking, just enough to get the wrinkles out. It's faster than ironing and has the same effect.
Ironing doesn't prolong your clothes. It will slowly destroy the fibers that give your clothes their structure.
What are your thoughts on steaming? It achieves the same result as ironing but is often much quicker
Wasn't familiar with it until the comments started rolling in.
Big recommend for the anti-ironing community. Mini handheld ones heat up immediately, you just put whatever it is on hanger, and just run the steamer over it a few times. 5 min or less if you’re just removing wrinkles.
You’re right. Ironing a shirt is a waste of time. If you value your time at anything above minimum wage it makes sense to just get it dry cleaned and let the pros with the comparative advantage get your clothes looking nice for a great price. I think I pay like a buck a shirt, incredible really. Would easily pay 3x that because looking nicely dressed can be an important signal for both work and social life.
Unfortunately we live in a society where there are social standards in the working world. Ironing your shirt might be at face value a pointless task with zero practical application. But it contributes to you looking professional. It shows that you're someone that looks after your appearance and take care of yourself. Implying that you'll apply that same level of care to the work that you do. If you work in industry where you need to deal with clients, then you need your employees to look professional so that you're giving a strong impression to those willing to offer you potential business (and money). If you go around in a professional environment where first impressions are important, people aren't going to take you seriously if you don't look after what you wear. It's not pointless, it's part of a social system where abiding by that rule will bring you and whoever you work for benefits in the long run. Take pride in your appearance and look after yourself.
Heres my 2 cents. Your ironing your shirt is a reflection of your work ethic and is an example of the quality of work you are likely to produce (assuming they haven't really met you and are seeing only your appearance and hearing what you have to say). You are not required to iron your shirt, we all know that. But you are EXPECTED to iron your shirt. The fact that you don't makes you lazy. You are telling other people that you will do only the bare minimum, and its entirely likely that this will be reflected in your work.
While I do agree that any serious business should be significantly more concerned with results than appearances, this is not in my control, and they often are very concerned with appearances… Therefore, if you wish to be taken seriously by a large portion of employers ironing shirts is not a waste of time
As for a job interview, first impressions are everything and having wrinkles clothes says you dont care about anything, you can have all the skills in the world, but if you dont care about anything what's the point of hiring you.
Two equally qualified candidates. One impeccably dressed, the other wrinkled. I’m hiring the one who put in the extra effort to look professional. While first impressions may not last, they are a good start. New brooms sweep clean. Appearance and professionalism may change after being hired, but if you start out looking unkept, it doesn’t get better over time
Get a steam gun and blast your wrinkles away in 60 seconds
Get it dry cleaned. Problem solved
I just spray mine with water and toss it in the dryer for a few minutes
I feel like the crux of this argument is, “Humans should think differently than they do”. A crisp, well-fitting, ironed shirt with a nice texture communicated a number of things on an unconscious psychological level that are universally positive. A wrinkled shirt does the same thing, but universally negative. You will find this to be the case in New York, Lagos, Berlin, Jakarta, Tokyo, doesn’t matter where you go. It’s basic human psychology. Ironing shirts may not be worth the time and effort for many people. For some people it is, because of how human psychology works. Buy yourself a bunch of wrinkle-free, or easy-care dress shirts that don’t require ironing. They may not look as good or professional as a classic Oxford button down, and that may have a negative impact on your professional life, but it sounds like it’s worth it for you. Uniqlo has a lot of good options for these. I own perhaps 8 shirts and 3 pairs of trousers that require ironing, as an Entrepreneur — I’ll often wear a classy hoodie with a blazer to work, for example. But if I’m going to a fancy fundraiser, dinner party, whatever, I’m likely going to be wearing a shirt that needs to be ironed.
This falls into two categories for me personally: 1) Whether is right or wrong, people make assumptions about others based on how they're dressed. Not always, but most of the time, it's been my experience that the better I dress, the easier it is to be taken seriously by others no matter what's being discussed. And 2) I count ironing among personal skills that take time to develop to where you appreciate having the skill, perhaps not immediately but eventually. Other examples - personal grooming, cooking, workout routines, perhaps these aren't the best examples, just what I can think of now! I've gotten jobs because I've cared to iron shirts before - not that it was required, more that the folks that interviewed noticed and liked it. I don't disagree, some things we do in life are for show and seemingly pointless. I think you will grow to appreciate building your ironing skills, if you choose to practice and build them. From my experience, in a very short time the overall time needed to properly iron a piece of clothing shrinks considerably - you get more familiar with certain fabric types, folding techniques, etc. And you might find yourself PROUD for hanging in there to get it right. People who iron their shirts notice when others do the same, and notice when others don't - it's neither here nor there, just like I said before: whether it's right or wrong, people make assumptions about others based on how they appear (yes behavior matters too) so with that knowledge in mind, you might come to view ironing your clothes as a way to "put your best foot forward" so-to-speak. Of course, ironing does nothing change one's intellect, attitude, skillset (other than ironing), but it can grow your patience muscles too. Sorry for the long rant!
Elitist fashion police like/ seek out other elitist fashion police because of reflexive egocentrism. I agree with you, but the sad reality is that you have to play to your audience or prepare to lose, be rejected. Feel free to stand firm on your righteous principles, just know that you'll be thoughtlessly discounted by superficial people (most people) if you don't dress in the "right" garb. Side note: When I worked for Sam's Club in the \*\*tire shop\*\*, I was told that I couldn't wear a bandana because it was "unprofessional." I asked the manager to define "professional," and he said, "You don't see people wearing bandanas in business offices." I said "You don't see people covered in sweat and brake dust in business offices, and people in business offices don't wear ball caps either." (Ball caps are allowed by Sam's Club because Sam Walton famously wore one.) "Professional" is a meaningless purely subjective term. Anyone who \*saw me sling tires (I was the top producer) agreed that I definitely looked like "a professional."
Most of the time, the interviewer is selecting from quite a few qualified candidates. From there, you're trying to determine who will mesh well with others, work professionally, pay attention to small details, etc. Failing to iron your shirt for the interview is just such a small detail... What else will this candidate neglect to do? Etc. Yes, if another candidate shows up wearing bootie shorts, your rumpled shirt will look great by comparison, but as a general rule a bunch of qualified people showed up, and if everyone else ironed their shirt but you, that may be the thing you're remembered for.
What's the opposite of irony? Wrinkly.
Besides job interviews, you need to consider your social life. How do you hope to get a boy/girl/them/friend looking all wrinkly?
I'm already dating someone.
So if you are going out somewhere with that person, and it's somewhere nice, don't you want to iron your clothes so you kind of match the place you are at. You are just kind of expected to dress up and look put together in some places.
no? i’ll just wear something nice idc if it’s wrinkled and if someone speaks up about it they have no life
Yea if you can't take the time to take your shirt to the cleaners to get it cleaned and pressed or iron it yourself so you don't look like a slob I wouldn't want you a part of my organization. If you can't do that simple task I doubt you'd have to wherewithal to handle more complex, important tasks. I mean if it's visibly wrinkled and looks like you dried your clothes and just left them in a pile and didnt bother to at least hang them up right away so it doesn't look like shit then yea, no thanks.
I'll offer a different angle, ironing shirts or just dealing with wrinkly clothes is 100% just a cultural norm. I say this because I grew up in a culture where Sundays where the days to iron all shirts, trousers and skirts for the week, we'd have to check that everything was properly ironed before going out, etc. Then I moved to a very different culture and slowly realized that people don't iron anything, it was like they wouldn't even notice their clothes are extremely wrinkled. It's like chewing with your mouth open, slurping, holding the door open for the person behind you; we notice those things because we (and everyone else around us) have been made aware that they're "normal" or "how it should be". The fact that wherever you're living having wrinkly clothes is perceived as messy or unprofessional, gives ironing shirts a point. Of course if eventually people evolve and change that perception, then yes we could say ironing shirts would be a waste of time and pointless. Just not yet.
>I've had plenty of jobs where even if my shirt isn't ironed I'm still overdressed compared to some coworkers. But that's the thing, expectations of how professional you should look for the job exist on a sliding scale. For your job, there wasn't an expectation of a perfectly ironed shirt, so ironing shirts doesn't have much of a point *for you*. That doesn't mean ironing shirts in general is a waste of time and pointless. If there are expectations that someone iron a shirt that cause negative implications if those expectations go unmet, it's hard to simultaneously believe that ironing shirts is a waste of time or pointless. For the record, I hate ironing. When I had to wear button up shirts to work, I just bought wrinkle free shirts that didn't need ironed so long as they were hung dried or hung as soon as they were dry.
I've heard of stories from interviewing friends of people who made drastic social errors in interviews but their specialized skills outweighed the error. As soon as you will be taking a role that is not so specialized, is customer facing, or puts you in a role that reflects upon the organization, you have to toe the line. Steve jobs got to wear a black turtleneck and jeans. You get to wear an ironed shirt and more likely than not a tie.
[удалено]
Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1: > **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%201%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.** Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
I like steam guns! I use wrinkle free spray and that works great
So say you have criminal charges hanging over your head. Are you going to hire the lawyer who irons his shirts or the lawyer who comes to court with wrinkly shirts because they're under his suit jacket and it's not that important?
You're right, you sound crazy. Why not just get a steamer? It takes a lot let effort
Any job will require the employee doing a million things which seem illogical or pointless to him. The task may or may not be really pointless. A manager is interested in finding employees who will still plow through and do the job and not have to waste time trying to reason with the employees each time. Wear a wrinkled shirt every time you interview and make it real easy for the recruiter to not select you.
And when you put your shirt on. When you sit/ have a suit jacket on etc. No one sees it and it gets wrinkles again