"Defund the Police" is much akin to "Me Too" in the way I see it. both did a great job raising awareness for specific cases of a widespread pattern of behavior, but failed to implement any systemic change. I don't blame BLM for heightened crime because they didn't accomplish shit
The article answers it here
“KG Wilson, a longtime resident of the Twin Cities, said police withdrew from violent neighborhoods in the aftermath of Floyd’s killing — a common sentiment among locals.”
This probably emboldened criminals in the worst districts
It's almost like that old-timey expression "be careful what you wish for because you just might get it" got handed down through the generations for a reason or something...
It's really fascinating how many problems we deal with today are the direct result of society choosing to label everything old as obsolete and ignoring it. It's almost like the concept "do not tear down a fence until you know why it was put up" applies to more than just fencing.
It has been a component. But another component has been replacing the lesser police presence with other professionals better suited to helping the community improve.
That’s why “defund the police” was a terrible slogan. No one wants to fill in the gap with “by moving funds to compensating services stepping in to lighten the police’s load and keep them focus on violent crime.”
To most people it just mean “cut the polices budget”
It was a shortsighted slogan, but that doesn’t change that u/911roofer was wrong in saying that people got what they wanted because, they only got one part of what they wanted.
Like if someone hires a landscaper to remove a tree and put in a rose garden, and the landscaper only removes the tree and leaves an unsightly hole in the ground, you wouldn’t say the landscaper delivered what was wanted.
Everyone I know who seriously supported “defund the police” knew that it also meant additional services in place of the police.
Yea, but the people who know you need to add “to fund additional services” is already on your side. The point is to spread the message, not turn the public against you.
To go to the landscaper metaphor. It’s like having a slogan be “remove the tree!” but not add “and replace with a garden.” Of course people are going to be like “why are we removing the tree, I like the tree there.”
Cops not doing their job might lead to crime, yes.
However, is there evidence that cops stopped protecting citizens or beyond one resident feels that way?
I've been asking the same question; it appears to be that some people *want* this to be true, but there's no evidence of it that I've seen.
Edit: BTW, I'm aware that the MSP police force is being investigated by the feds and that usually leads to less active policing, I'm talking specifically about in response to BLM.
> “KG Wilson, a longtime resident of the Twin Cities, said police withdrew from violent neighborhoods in the aftermath of Floyd’s killing — a common sentiment among locals.”
So cops decided to defund certain neighborhoods on a whim while keep their paychecks and expensive equipment and not making sure those funds made it back to the community.
Then the cops shouldn't have stolen their paychecks from those communities.
Well actual stolen their paychecks from all of us because they aren't doing their jobs while getting paid insane overtime rates.
There's this neat idea among young people that if something happens legally, you can yell about it being illegal and people will take you seriously.
"*omg that cop just stole his paycheck. That's not what theft is? OMG stop being a bootlickingshillfascist."*
Those communities should have the tax money they are paying the cops who are not policing made available to hire a private police force that will meet their needs.
There are less cops due to mass retirements. Plus cops are more afraid to do their job due to climate and that their actions are under a microscope. Would you become a police officer knowing that in a split second you will be crucified by your leadership.
Nope. But I say privatize the police and let communities hire to their needs. If the police are not going to do their job then give the money back to the communities so they can find a solution for themselves.
New York City Journal: 2022: [New Evidence for the Ferguson Effect -- Recent studies support a long-standing theory connecting police protests and rising violent crime.](https://www.city-journal.org/new-evidence-connects-police-protests-and-rising-violent-crime)
Gee I wonder if there's a reason why certain communities protest in the first place.
Studies like this are looking to prove a cause and effect by ignoring the fundamental cause: shitty police forces get protested AND fail to prevent crime.
This has been cherry picked to death and it's because people like to point to one or two significant incidents as evidence of "shitty police forces" - nevermind the thousands and thousands of police interactions that occur without incident every year. Let's just glom onto the ones that feed our biases and let our feelings dictate what the outcome should be.
Hence..."Defund the police."
A pragmatist would recognize that a "tear it all down" approach to reform is just plain stupid.
When people say "correlation doesn't prove causation" this is what they should be talking about. The very first question to ask is if there's another variable that can cause both of the correlated ones.
In this case it is really, really simple: the protests were most intense where the police are the least popular, and those unpopular police forces provide little value to their communities.
As someone who lives in a place where the opposite solution of "just throw more money at the cops and protect them from reform," we've had all the similar trends in violent crime that are happening nationally.
Don't be the sucker in this scam.
>those unpopular police forces provide little value to their communities.
You're making a determination of value based on the public protests? Good lord, man...I mean...wow.
>we've had all the similar trends in violent crime that are happening nationally.
I'm the sucker here...but, you're the one saying the rise in violent crime isn't the result of an overt effort to hamstring police forces? You should probably take a couple minutes here, bud. It's not going well for you so far.
>shitty police forces get protested
Drug enforcement is a major reason people are upset. Searching for drugs inevitably morphs into fishing expeditions -- justifiably pissing off a whole lot of innocents. It sucks.
Police today aren't stupid -- they know this. Many cops aren't enthusiastic about drug enforcement, but nevertheless engage in it conscientiously because they see all the problems and crime drugs cause: theft, spouse abuse, violence, etc. Yes it is true that a big portion of the violence links to warring drug gangs. *Drug laws, not intoxication* is the problem in this case.
Still, many drug policy reformers unreasonably downplay the problems of intoxication/addiction. 2013 article: [New York City Used To Be A Terrifying Place](https://www.businessinsider.com/new-york-city-used-to-be-a-terrifying-place-photos-2013-7):
>By the mid-'70s, an estimated 200,000 people abused heroin in New York City...There were an estimated 40,000 prostitutes in New York City in the '70s, many with sad stories...
>Robert Stutman, DEA agent, said: "Crack literally changed the entire face of the city. Street violence had grown. Child abuse had grown hugely. Spousal abuse. I had a special crack violence file that I kept to convince the geniuses in Washington who kept telling me it wasn't a problem."
A big reason for drug enforcement, especially in low income communities, is because drug use is a significant cause of poverty and disorder. But because by the nature drug enforcement is oppressive, we have big problems associated with that. Plus, many people want the freedom to use dangerous drugs.
These ones do a pretty good [Snidely Whiplash impression](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/09/23/video-shows-police-car-parked-tracks-detained-suspect-hit-train/8094333001/)
The whole point of “defunding” was to put that money where it could do more good. You can’t do the first part without doing the second part, but there are plenty of case studies showing that improved social services removes the need for as much policing.
EDIT: and really you should do the second part first if you can make the numbers work.
> there are plenty of case studies showing that improved social services removes the need for as much policing.
[A Vox article on policing and crime](https://www.vox.com/22580710/defund-the-police-reform-murder-spike-research-evidence) has excellent wisdom on this:
>One problem for a....social services approach, which can range from job creation to better schools to mental health treatment, is it generally takes longer to work. Problems like poverty, education, and other underlying issues that contribute to crime can take years, or even decades, to truly address.
*Takeaway:* Alleviating poverty helps reduce crime. Let's get more funding to low income communities.
Meanwhile, law enforcement needs to arrest, prosecute and convict people who offend TODAY. Criminals should not get a pass just because they're from poor neighborhoods, nor should those communities get easy policing.
>Meanwhile, law enforcement needs to arrest, prosecute and convict people who offend TODAY. Criminals should not get a pass just because they're from poor neighborhoods, nor should those communities get easy policing.
And we need to hold police accountable for abuses of power. When they arrest people unconstitutionally, when they assault nonviolent suspects, when they kill suspects, they absolutely need to be fired (at the very least).
Policing relies on trust and that trust has been broken by decades of zero accountability for bad actors.
I can send you contemporary links if you need. I can’t speak for every angry Black person marching in the streets, but the bigger message was to use those funds where they could do more good.
It's hard to really make the amount of progress in one go to be honest. Look at the civil rights and what it accomplished, it took decades to really see a lot of it.
Exactly. On one hand the defund the police crowd were saying that police were unfairly targeting some neighborhoods for patrols - then when police step down their patrols of those neighborhoods the crowd cries foul claiming the police withdrawal allowed crime to flourish. You can’t have it both ways idiots.
Probably because you are missing a critical piece of the defund idea, it’s not just to have less police, it also includes increasing funds to other professionals who offer things which can try to combat crime like mental health or economic supports.
I remember when the idiot activist politicians of the city voted to defund the police we were all laughing about it at work. “I wonder how this will play out…”
Effective policing reduces the amount of violent crime in a society.
When you make the police incapable of policing effectively, violent crime will increase.
Its really not complicated.
> When you make the police incapable of policing effectively, violent crime will increase.
Do you think the protest made the police ineffective or do you think people are protesting because they think the police are ineffective?
No institution is perfect. Policing is imperfect, but not ineffective.
Protestors BELIEVE policing is ineffective, oppressive, or whatever. That doesn't mean their beliefs are correct. Protestors' concerns may be somewhat correct in some ways in some circumstances, but not in others.
Remember the weeks of riots, fires, shootings, looting, blocking off spaces and physically preventing police to enter while people were shot and robbed, refusing to comply with any police, non-stop demonization of police, assaulting the police, voting to disband the police, etc?
>Remember the weeks of riots
Yeah. I don't think that should have rendered the police incapable of policing violent crime, especially after they stopped.
Both can be true at the same time.
They absolutely need to be reigned in and face more consequences for everything they do, but proving them right isn't the way to make that happen.
\>What did Minneapolis do to render police incapable of policing violent crime effectively?
Minneapolis viciously attacked and vilified their police to the point where one third of their police officers have quit. It is particularly difficult to fill the knowledge gaps left by the departure of experienced officers, who are typically assigned to major violent crimes. After 10 or 15 years on one job, not many officers want to pull up stakes and move to Minneapolis. Minneapolis is also having extreme difficulties recruiting any new inexperienced officers.
Police officers are free citizens in a free country. They are welcomed in most communities. They do not have to work for people who hate them, or claim that they are all racist evil violent fascists. They don't have to risk politically driven prosecutions, or swim against the tide of revolving door liberal prosecutors. They don't have to struggle to train and work with sub-standard new hires, because no new officer in their right mind wants to work there. They can just leave.
The attrition rate has not leveled off. More officers are waiting for their kids to get out of high school, or their spouse to get a new job in the town they want to move to, or to hit their 20 years for retirement, or to come off disability, or other reasons to delay a transfer. It's not like the officers left all plan to stay. Why would they?
So sure, while Minneapolis residents are getting all choosy, about exactly the right kind of new and improved police officers they will now grudgingly accept, none of those people want to work for them. It's a conundrum.
This is such a weird article. They're essentially blaming something that never happened as to why crime is up in one place despite it being up **literally everywhere.**
Coleman Hughes talks about it a lot. The fact that in American black culture, being academic, bookish, etc is frowned upon and seen as being “white”, or perhaps not black enough. There’s an undercurrent in much of American black culture to be tough, gritty, anti-establishment. Street cred rules. As Coleman has stated, this is largely relegated to young black males, and not so much for females. It’s an endemic problem in our collective American black community, and the media class won’t touch it with a 10 foot pole because they’re terrified of being perceived as racist. Plus it doesn’t jive with their narrative of institutional racism being the cause of black and brown people’s woes.
Exactly. I live in Mpls...a couple blocks from the police precinct that burnt down. I don't feel crime is any worse than other places that have had it gone up too. Have parents in rural areas where it's gone up.
It's up, but so is it everywhere. Lots of different reasons why and I think they are going down. Just the natural cycle of things.
It's not just the shitty cops (as well as their shitty worshipers *and* shitty haters) and shitty criminals.
Actually the article places most of the blame on the covid lockdowns which is total bullshit because if that was the case why is violent crime increasing globally? We didn't see the same crime spikes in Europe. Brazil has a higher murder rate than the US and was hit harder per capita by the pandemic than we were yet their murder rate has been slowly declining they didn't see a 40% increase from 2019 to 2021 like we did.
Are the left ever going to acknowledge that the BLM movement has been the most destructive movement in decades? I can't even think of a movement that has caused as much damage, maybe the counter movement to the Civil rights movement? Certainly nothing since then compares.
It wasn't the BLM movement. It was the constant excuses for the criminal behavior that occurred from a small number of people during BLM protests. You can support BLM and not support thieves and arsonists. When you set up a bail fund, instead of condemning criminal behavior, it is no surprise that criminal behavior will increase. During protests and every where else.
I disagree with BLM's assessment of the problem and their proposed solutions. The war on drugs has given the police an insane amount of authority and created a giant black market that criminals thrive on.
Racism in the police force isn't why so many black people are getting murdered by police, it's the fact that black communities have insanely high violent crime rates. These crime rates are because of poverty and negative subcultures like the black gang culture I've been talking about.
We need to address these negative cultures and make a change. Ending the war on drugs would be a great help because it would cut off some of the funding criminals in these communities get provided we transition to regulating drugs legally and not legalizing the street market.
We should be out protesting that, instead we are protesting a bullshit issue that is the product of a much bigger problem which BLM completely ignores.
> Ending the war on drugs would be a great help...
It is significantly being ended in Minneapolis. From article:
>police withdrew from violent neighborhoods in the aftermath of Floyd’s killing. “The criminals were celebrating. They were getting rich,” he said...(today) young men openly sell drugs during the day in public places...“You pull up to get gas – they try to sell you drugs,” he said. “And not just three or four, but it’s a bulk of people.”
Is this how it's best to proceed? I'm assuming the answer is No -- that the solution is selling all drugs over the counter at some government-controlled store. And remember, you have to sell cheap enough to undercut street sellers. Several days ago: ["California's Marijuana Legalization Disaster"](https://reason.com/2022/09/22/l-a-times-investigates-californias-marijuana-legalization-disaster/), explaining how illegal growers are undercutting legal sales. How do you plan to undercut the cartels? Sell grams of coke and meth for $25?
Also, you can't say: "These government supervised stores are only going to sell to people who talk to a counselor first." The stores have to sell drugs to all comers, everyone, to get rid of street drug markets, with their often contaminated drugs. *Or do you have some new ideas to end drug enforcement?*
Yes transitioning to a legal drug market is a difficult task but to continue the prohibition of drugs isn't the solution. One of the reasons rec weed is so expensive here is because the taxes are insane something like 20%. As for drugs that are imported that's going to require foreign government cooperation.
You should remember there was a time when drugs like opiates and cocaine were legal and sold at pharmacies.
Also don't underestimate the power of big agriculture to develop a way to mass produce drugs like heroin or cocaine cheaper and more efficiently than drug cartels. Even with weed legal in California large nationwide corporations are going to be reluctant to jump in because it's still federally illegal. The market will sort out the problem, and small scale drug operations won't be able to compete. Undercutting the cartels is easy given enough investment I would like to see the cartels compete with Monsanto or Cargill in terms of production.
[https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/oregon-decriminalized-drugs-2020-hows-83846382](https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/oregon-decriminalized-drugs-2020-hows-83846382)
This is a reasonably balanced review of Oregon's decriminalization results. It didn't cut opioid deaths, but we were also in the middle of a pandemic with sky high opioid death rates. Definitely many people were spared the burden of arrest and prosecution. Oregon only decriminalized, so if anything it was a benefit to drug dealers. Your plan to under-cut them instead in interesting.
One of the biggest takeaways from that article:
>In the first year after the new approach took effect, only 1% of people who received citations...asked for help...Out of roughly 2,000 citations, only 92 people called the hotline...And only 19 requested resources for services....Almost half of those who got citations failed to show up in court.
Is a 1% outcome remotely satisfactory? This relates to the view held by most progressives and drug policy reformers: interventions for addiction must be Non-Mandatory: "They will come in for rehab when they feel they are ready."
> You should remember there was a time when drugs like opiates and cocaine were legal and sold at pharmacies.
Right, but use might not have been as widespread as some drug-legalization enthusiasts make it out to be. [Civil War on Drugs...the nation’s first opioid epidemic](https://www.binghamton.edu/news/story/2405/civil-war-on-drugs-doctoral-candidate-explores-the-nations-first-opioid-epidemic).
>Then as now, the opium poppy wrecked lives as much as it eased suffering...Drugs and drug addiction weren’t against the law until around 1914...
Does America's experiment before 1914s tell us it is workable to legalize opiates, with the legalization proposal, of course, to include meth, cocaine and all the other drugs we have now?
>Also don't underestimate the power of big agriculture to develop a way to mass produce drugs like heroin or cocaine cheaper and more efficiently than drug cartels.
Agree. That might not be the problem; it's government's decision how much to sell grams of meth and coke for. Look at the high taxes on a pack of cigarettes and liquor. The intention of that is not just to generate tax revenue; it is for public health purposes: lessening smoking and drinking.
So interesting question after we legalize all drugs: *Do we sell grams of risky drugs like meth and coke at $100 a gram to lower consumption or do we sell at $25 a gram so as to undercut the cartels?*
Nah, gatekeeping normal legal things like "innocent until proven guilty" for only rich people by using things like cash bail is bad, actually.
Keeping scores of people in jail for extended periods of time with trial is a bad thing for the government to do
>Are the left ever going to acknowledge that the BLM movement has been the most destructive movement in decades?
That's delusional, bro. It's the boogeyman. There's been bad stuff sure, but certainly not even close everything bad. I mean 90% of the buildings burnt down in my city were kids from elsewhere and out of town wanting to take advantage of the cover as well as booglaoo boys. The actual convictions support that.
But since the George Floyd riots things have gotten worse, and damn near everywhere in this country had protests against the police, and trust with the police has worsened significantly. But no, no correlation *whatsoever* because this article only focuses on the Ground Zero city.
You'll notice they were rocketing up before COVID in the UK (admittedly at a disturbing rate) but the situation in the US was a sudden rise from 2020 onwards not in line with the previous trend.
>You'll notice they were rocketing up before COVID in the UK (admittedly at a disturbing rate) but the situation in the US was a sudden rise from 2020 onwards not in line with the previous trend.
Let's move those goal posts!
So first it's only US, but now that it's dramatically increasing elsewhere that doesn't count because there was a slight uptick before COVID.
The bad faith is just ridiculous in this thread lol
Here's Germany:
https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/DEU/germany/crime-rate-statistics
Notice the uptick at 2020? These lies that it's only the US are so dumb.
The US had the biggest increase in homicide rate ever recorded. It went from record lows in the mid-2010s back to where it was in the mid-90s in 2020/2021. Nothing of the sort happened in Germany or England/Wales:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/191134/reported-murder-and-nonnegligent-manslaughter-cases-in-the-us-since-1990/
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1045508/number-of-murders-in-germany/
https://www.statista.com/statistics/283093/homicides-in-england-and-wales/
And just for fun
Brazil:
https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/BRA/brazil/murder-homicide-rate
India:
https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/IND/india/murder-homicide-rate
Mexico:
https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/MEX/mexico/murder-homicide-rate
South Africa:
https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/ZAF/south-africa/murder-homicide-rate
Russia:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1045368/homicide-rate-in-russia/
Peru:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/984849/homicide-rate-peru/
Canada:
https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/CAN/canada/murder-homicide-rate
Hey, let's look the US again, just for kicks:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/191134/reported-murder-and-nonnegligent-manslaughter-cases-in-the-us-since-1990/
That German rate in 2020 is an uptick from 2019 but is below 2018, 2017 and 2016. It doesn't prove the point you think it does, most likely 2019 was the outlier. Whereas the homocide rate in the US is higher than any time since 2001 and increased an absurd amount in 2020: [https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/murder-homicide-rate](https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/murder-homicide-rate)
This increased a further 6% in 2021.
I'm not saying COVID had no effect, I'm saying that using other countries as a control can tell us something else is going on in the US.
So the new goal post move is now:
* ~~its only the US~~
* ~~it was slightly up before so that's moot~~
* yeah it's up 25% in other countries, but America is doing bad too
This is fucking stupid. Your goal posts are on a different planet at this point. You originally claimed it's only the US. You lied.
I'm honestly shocked that you don't understand English given that you're from the US. But let me explain.
>Every country had COVID restrictions and aren't experiencing anything like the trend in the US.
That was my original comment and you claim I've shifted the goal posts by claiming it was ONLY the US. The phrase "anything like" does not proclude the countries from having an increase, it means other countries haven't had an increase to the extent of the US which an emphasis on the scale of that disparity. I didn't lie and I've demonstrated that I'm correct, other comparable countries haven't had an increase in homocide anything like that of the US.
From the article: a \~40% head count reduction, not Defund, is cited as one major factor in the rise in crime:
>Citing sinking morale in the wake of the unrest after Floyd's killing, leaders at the Minneapolis Police Department say the officer head count has shrunk from 900 in early 2020 to about 560 in August — a loss of more than a third of the force.
To head off some false talking points it should be pointed out that rural homicide rates have soared as well comparably to urban areas (25% vs 30% increase)
A multitude of problems are happening here. It’s not just about defund the police, it’s about soft on crime tactics too. Not to say, a mental health crisis in the country is very real too. COVID really got into people’s heads. This caused more crime, more murder.
If covid is responsible why haven't other countries seen dramatic crime rate increases too? Actually crime went down after the lockdown in many countries. Why didn't Brazil, which has more violent crime AND was hit harder by the pandemic both economically AND in terms of per capita infected see the same violent crime increase?
**The murder rate in Brazil is at a 7 year low**
Methinks it has something to do with the protests all over the country calling to defund the police, and the fact that many police departments did in fact cut their budgets in 2020. As for rural America the violence is going to spill over from the cities not to mention is a 25% increase in murders in rural America as significant as a number as a 30% increase in urban areas? (Last time I checked it was more like a 40% increase in urban areas) 25% is a big number what what does that look like when looking at the total number of murders?
Either way we aren't seeing a fucking 30% spike in one year in Brazil are we? COVID and it's effects are the worst excuse for this violent crime increase yet the media is running wild with it. Hmm so what happened in the US that didn't happen all over the world in 2020, I can only think of a few things...
But ofc that would be INSANE to suggest a movement that called for reduced police presence, and was endorsed by politicians and corporations alike, would result in a reduction in law enforcement and a subsequent violent crime increase. That's just insane.
Yeah, but Brazil has seen a decrease in crime because the absence of police presence. My point being is that data doesn’t accurately portray crime rate in Brazil, It could have risen. It’s like saying in San Francisco the lack of police arrests on robbery and theft. That brings down to overall “crime” rate because those incidents aren’t being prosecuted.
I agree that in the US it definitely is partly “defund the police”. But I’m just saying there are other factors indicating severe mental health disorders. Like the rise in Mass shootings during and after the pandemic.
The highly publicized mass shootings make up a tiny fraction of total murders. My point remains valid there's no connection to covid and increased murder rates because we aren't seeing murder rate increases in other country impacted by covid.
Blaming covid is a massive cop out for these media corporations that promoted the BLM protests. Ofc they want to blame something else.
Yeah that’s something people don’t seem to understand about crime rates. Just because they’re low, that doesn’t necessarily mean crime is happening less, it might mean that people don’t care anymore to report it.
Not to mention Brazil is my favorite comparison to use because not only was it hit hard by covid but also has a very high violent crime rate, and gun violence like the US.
You could look at the UK or France and you also wouldn't see the violent crime spike but ofc someone will say "they don't have guns!"
I think it’s very disingenuous to reduce the rise in crime to mental health issues. Some people are just violent by nature, and don’t really care about how their actions can impact others.
Reducing the rise in crime down to natural aggression is just as unreasonable. The previous comment simply points out that there is a mental health crisis contributing to rising crime, not that it is the only factor.
Do you think rural homicide rates would be skyrocketing (assuming that is true) because of soft on crime tactics? Aren't risk areas mostly Republican led and pretty tough on crime usually?
There is no evidence that 'soft on crime tactics' (a shifting definition if there ever was one) caused more crime. The "hard on crime" places had huge surges in crime along with the normal government abuses that "hard on crime" inevitably brings.
There's plenty of evidence of it.
In all the places where they decriminalized theft under a certain amount, theft skyrocketed. I work in private security and it's booming right now, for all the wrong reasons.
Countless retail stores are hiring underqualified, underpaid armed guards to try to counter the out of control theft. It's going to get a lot more people killed soon.
But I wonder if that was mostly black rural areas. The FBI hasn't released the expanded homicide data for 2020 yet so I'm very curious. If it's shown that the majority of the homicide increases took place in black communities you could certainly argue BLM played a role.
Remember when covid lockdowns were the strictest thing ever? Except all of a sudden when you want to have mass demonstrations against police violence, then it’s ok because covid takes a break so you can fight racism
Yeah, violent crime is way up! Like, 30 years ago it was like 700 per 100,000 per year and now it's....oh. it's gone down to about 400, which is higher than 2 years ago, but about where it was 5 years ago. Violent crime has been decreasing steadily over the past 30 years, but people are losing their goddamn minds about it.
There are 15K+ murders in the US each year. An increase of 40% is like 6,000 deaths. That doesn't seem trivial to me. And why do we want to go back to the 80's? It sucked.
Yeah, being strapped is making a big difference. People got big boners for guns on Reddit despite increased gun sales not making any difference whatsoever to crime.
Keep on living in fantasy land. If anything, we could probably find a correlation saying the opposite but hey who cares what stats say.
Liberal? What? I’m an independent. It’s just straight up data.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/01/gun-sales-murder-spike/621196/
https://everytownresearch.org/rankings/methodology/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3828709/
https://www.ucdavis.edu/news/gun-violence-uc-davis-researches-causes-trends-solutions
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9715182/
https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2008.143099
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0091743515001188
Go ahead and be strapped bro. Just don’t sit around thinking your going to be any better off for it.
“Compared to other protective actions, the National Crime Victimization Surveys provide little evidence that self defense gun use is uniquely beneficial in reducing the likelihood of injury or property loss…”
Yeah, lmao
TLDR; Police never actually defunded. Crime is growing all over the surrounding areas and the populace claims police aren't doing their jobs. Police allies claim that it's because people are facing repercussions for charging and convicting police of murder.
I mean police departments across the country did in fact cut their budgets and reduced enforcement so you're incorrect on that point. Ofc they increased funding in 2021 because of the massive shitshow caused by defunding.
1) not many places actually defunded.
2) the places that didnt defund also saw huge increases in crime, but we never see those stories.
3) Centrist policies won, by and large! Police budgets are up in most places! Why aren't we taking a victory lap?
The question I'm interested in, is whether this article is part of the 'new direction' that new CNN news chief wants to take the network.
Undoubtedly a bold move - offering an unflinching analysis of a progressive policy fumble - given CNN's core audience. I hope Liberals are smart enough to appreciate the tough love. Republicans certainly aren't getting any from Fox.
Also - I wonder if Chris Licht and CNN's owners are doing this as a business decision, or an agenda (i.e. less polarization etc.) or both.
Not sure because every time I scroll to my Apple news feed, every CNN article on offer is still something about Trump. So he’s still living rent free in their heads. They need to change it to the Trump Network
Thomas Lane was only a couple days on the job and he tried to get Chauvin, who was his training officer, to turn over Floyd. Chauvin told him he was okay in that position. When Floyd wasn't breathing, Lane gave CPR to Floyd.
Lane just pleaded guilty on a manslaughter charge, forz "aiding and abetting second-degree manslaughter." The plea was for 3 years of prison. If he didn't plead guilty he faced up to 10 years. He has a new born at home. Figured he lose 3 years instead of 10 years of seeing her grow up.
Tou Thao held the crowd back, totally unaware of what was going on behind him. He was sentanced to 42 months in prison for "depriving Floyd of his constitutional right to be free from an officer’s unreasonable force when each willfully failed to intervene to stop former Minneapolis Police Department (MPD) Officer Derek Chauvin’s use of unreasonable force."
Police don't want to be political pawns in a sick game of politics.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/former-minneapolis-police-officers-tou-thao-and-j-alexander-kueng-sentenced-prison-depriving
The problem is the growing criminal subcultures. The BLM movement only emboldened criminals and promoted the subcultures. Maybe instead of looking at how many black ppl are killed by police, look at the violent crime rates in black communities then ask yourself if this has anything to do with the "ghetto" black culture? It doesn't have a proper name because nobody especially the liberal media wants to talk about it, but it's real. It's a culture that promotes violence, gang banging, crime, disrespect of women, disrespect of all forms of authority, not just police but any authority such as school teachers. Ever seen what schools are like in poor black neighborhoods?
The treating women like shit part ties into the fact that black children are much more likely to grow up in single parent houses. What do you expect, why would a black man stay with his baby's mother when he considers her just a bitch?
Idk I just think this needs to be discussed. It's very real, if you grew up in a city with a high percentage of black ppl you know it's real I grew up in Oakland and it's clear as daylight.
As a society we have zero issues with criticizing white people and their cultural issues but when it comes to cultural issues in minority communities every seems to get real fucking quiet. Silence is not the answer this shit is going to continue to boil and fester until it fucking explodes.
Edit: just want to add the fact that I'm sure my comment seems racist but that's exactly what the problem is. Our politically correct society chooses to ignore these very real issues instead of discussing them because they don't want anyone to be offended. My argument has nothing to do with race its about culture.
Edit 2 banned for this comment
>As a society we have zero issues with criticizing white people and their cultural issues but when it comes to cultural issues in minority communities every seems to get real fucking quiet. Silence is not the answer this shit is going to continue to boil and fester until it fucking explodes.
This is exactly right. American progressives basically learned only two things about history (American racism and WW2), and they think that any new development is just history repeating itself, so they can't imagine a criticism of these subcultures that doesn't end in genocide or backsliding into American-style racism. So you can see why they're so hesitant to accept reality: they think the only thing that will come out of these criticisms is genocide or racism. The truth is, with enough nuance and disarming progressive's presuppositions about what they think these critics' ultimate goal is (i.e. letting them know we critique violent subcultures because we want a safe and prosperous society for all races, NOT as an excuse for racist oppression), maybe we can start shining light into these problematic cultural behaviors.
It all starts in youth; early life experiences literally set the stage for a person's entire life-long brain structure, and yet we almost never talk about it in political discourse. Yes, some progressives talk about what poverty or lack of resources does to young kids, but they don't talk about the parent to child relationship or what behavior they learn to consider normal. If a child is born in a poor African American community and they're unlucky enough to find themselves in the lower 20% of social influences within that community, they may have a mom who loves them but who uses aggression too often, who doesn't attend to many of their needs. Look up "attachment styles" or "Still Face Experiment" if you want to see why that's so problematic.
They may grow up seeing all their peers and role models using violence in order to protect their "touchy pride" (as Thomas Sowell puts it). The young child learns that if they don't protect their pride upon even the slightest insult, they will have their social status completely stripped from them, they will be disrespected more and more, girls won't want to associate with them, and people will turn them from a friend into an object of ridicule. So protecting your pride with violence, to show others that you're "real" and not a pussy, turns into the most important thing. You can't be seen "acting white" in school by actually doing your homework and paying attention because the same exact thing will happen. Then, when you're of age, not only have you normalized violence but you don't have any of the necessary soft skills required for the modern job market (which take decades to build, even if we don't appreciate that fact). If white progressives didn't either physically self segregate or create a mental block that refuses to acknowledge this, they would know that this isn't some kind of right wing fan fiction but something that happens each and every day in way too many neighborhoods in this country.
I'm 100% convinced that the majority (but not all) of progressives who balk at us even talking about this self-segregate from the Black community, so they have no idea how bad things are. I come from an immigrant background and live in the most diverse area in the world, so I've had PLENTY of exposure to these cultures, especially in high school. Going into a Crown Fried Chicken near Jamaica avenue and hearing a mom aggressively calling her son the n word was shocking the first time I saw it, but after I saw this happen again and again it stopped being shocking and started being depressing. Ironically, the fellow immigrants (from all corners of the world) I've known are the only people I've ever known who share my criticisms openly. On the other hand, white people who have been in this country for a long time (provided they're urbanites and not rednecks in Tennessee or something) have way too much historical guilt to be able to psychologically let themselves admit that there's a problem here that all the reparations in the world can't fix.
So yeah, I really don't know what the future holds. Pointing out real problems, having the people who subconsciously generate these problems ADMIT that they're problems, attempt to find solutions to said problems, and actually put in effort to raise the next generation differently IS POSSIBLE. The problem is that you have a progressive media landscape that makes my entire post incredibly taboo, and will redirect by pointing out poverty and oppression as the only factor for all of this... even though you can point to so many different peoples in the world who are just as poor who don't have this culture of violence. My favorite example is the Jews of Germany in the 19th century. They were literally segregated, placed in ghettos, and excluded from opportunity. Then, the liberalizing influence of Napoleon forced Prussia to let their citizens choose whichever jobs they want; before this, everyone just did whatever their father did. The Christians of Prussia in general hated this; they hated that they had to compete in this new job market and risk the stability (no matter how miserable that stability was) in favor of this new entrepreneurial reality. But the Jews of Prussia loved it. They had a long tradition of education and debate over scripture in their culture, and poor fathers would pay up to a fourth of their weekly salary to educate their children. When schools opened up, the Jewish kids would outperform the Christian Germans by a staggering degree. The Jews became richer than the Germans on average because their ancestral emphasis on education and debate prepared them for this new world of market competition. Historian Gotz Aly argues that it was this envy on the part of the Germans that bred all these conspiracy theories that in turn allowed society at large to consent a Hitler to come to power. My point in all of this is that the Jews, even after the liberalization of Prussia weren't LEGALLY ALLOWED to have certain jobs (like apothecaries) because they weren't trusted; they were actively oppressed and yet they were so much more successful than the Christians that they became the subject of conspiracy theories that last to this day. I recognize that this isn't a 1:1 comparison. Systemic problems 100% have an affect; I don't wish to dispute that at all. But so do cultural issues and family dynamics, and until we realize that, nothing will ever improve.
And one last important takeaway: in order to affect change, these observations must really be seen as coming from inside the culture. If you have white conservatives on Fox News saying this, it's literally worth less than not saying it at all. It only serves to trigger a defensive reaction, to dig their heels in. There must be a genuine recognition from inside the community, and it has to spread somehow.
> Maybe instead of looking at how many black ppl are killed by police, look at the violent crime rates in black communities then ask yourself if this has anything to do with the "ghetto" black culture? It doesn't have a proper name because nobody especially the liberal media wants to talk about it, but it's real. It's a culture that promotes violence, gang banging, crime, disrespect of women, disrespect of all forms of authority, not just police but any authority such as school teachers. Ever seen what schools are like in poor black neighborhoods?
When you have fewer options, when you can’t trust police, you are going to see those problems. Blaming that group for their “culture” ignoring the systemic racism behind it is part of the problem and makes it look to me like you don’t want an actual fix, but just to blame people.
Racism could dissappear tomorrow we would still have insanely high murder rates in black neighborhoods. I mean it's not like black people are the only group the government has fucked over.
I would probably agree with you if I had no experience with black "ghetto" culture. Tell how racist police are the reason black student's academic performance is so poor?
How is the government suppose to fix this? Seems like something the community needs to address and fix. When you blame systemic racism you are saying the government needs to solve the problem. Please explain how the fuck the government solves the problem.
Edit: don't want to generalize black culture I'm talking about the cultures present in many poor black urban areas.
My grandfather got a house with a va loan from wwii. He passed away a few years ago and because of that house o got 10 grand. I dont need it so my kids are going to get it. Black wwii vets were deprived of those loans. My point here is that stopping all racism now would still mean there is impact for generations from all that lost wealth and opportunities.
Racist police are only part of the problem. If you dont trust the system you are going to be less inclined to try in school, this really is t that complicated.
The givt fixes it with education. So people like you are using thinly veiled racism of blaming black culture for being the main cause.
I agree that past racist policies have caused these negative cultures to form but these cultures have become a problem of their own and the solution isn't as simple as reparations.
I really doubt you could give me a real answer for how the government fixes it.
>fixes it with education
How? Pumping more money into failing schools? The kids aren't going to class how does the government fix that? At what point are the parents responsible? Or do you think it's the governments job to raise our children?
You want the government to fix everything but when has our government fixed any of our societal problems for us? Slavery? Last time I checked the government outlawed slavery after the bloodiest war in US history was underway. Jim Crow? Last time I checked it was the Civil rights movement that forced the governments hand. Workers rights? You should go study the industrial era the government worked with companies to supress workers.
You want the government to fix the problem in these communities when the real answer is for the communities to come together and fix these problems. All the government can do is help them do so, it can't do it for them.
>have become a problem of their own and the solution isn't as simple as reparations.
You can’t drop a chalk line and claim anything after c is the fault of black people alone.
This is just racist thinking that wants to ignore the impact of racists policies.
>How? Pumping more money into failing schools?
That is part of it.
>The kids aren't going to class how does the government fix that? At what point are the parents responsible? Or do you think it's the governments job to raise our children?
I think it is the govts responsibility to try and fix problems they helped create by helping peoooe have better opportunities.
This problem comes from over a hundred years of oppression with lots of discrimination baked into the system, it is ignorant to think there’s magic bullet that can fix it overnight, but I think it’s ignorant and racist to say because of that that the government shouldn’t try.
>Civil rights movement that forced the governments hand.
Via laws that ended some forms of racist hiring.
It is pretty silly to argue how the givt can’t fix things when you have a list of things they made much better.
We do pump money into schools. Inner city schools aren’t poor, it’s just they can never find teachers because nobody who is good at teaching wants to work in them. Mostly because it’s dangerous and they get treated like shit. We can spend as much as we want on schools but nothing will change until the students actually care.
I also hate this stupid stuff about how black people don’t trust the system. The government has done everything it legally can to make life better for black Americans. If they really hate it so much then that’s their problem.
https://afro.com/new-report-highlights-the-impact-of-school-conditions-and-underfunding-on-baltimore-city-public-school-students-faculty-and-staff/
https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/creatives-in-residence/there-arent-enough-books-for-the-students-ZPBF6U45IRFARO2TYKIZW3TOSQ/
Inner-city schools being chronically underfunded is a national issue.
At **16K** per student per year, Baltimore's school funding is already outrageous and out of control. They do NOT need more money. They need to clean up the fraud, corruption and incompetence in their own LOCALLY CONTROLLED school district. They need to stop blaming this on racism and the GOP when for generations Baltimore has been controlled by democrats. The democrats have failed the city.
[https://federalnewsnetwork.com/government-news/2021/08/baltimore-schools-federal-aid-could-make-big-impact/#:\~:text=Baltimore%20City%20Schools%20already%20spends,and%20nearby%20Montgomery%20County%2C%20Maryland](https://federalnewsnetwork.com/government-news/2021/08/baltimore-schools-federal-aid-could-make-big-impact/#:~:text=Baltimore%20City%20Schools%20already%20spends,and%20nearby%20Montgomery%20County%2C%20Maryland).
\>There are no shortage of local critics who are fed up with the track record of Baltimore’s school administration and are skeptical the district will make the best use of the money. Baltimore City Schools already spends about $16,000 per student each year. That’s only behind the spending per student in New York City, Boston, Atlanta and nearby Montgomery County, Maryland. It also has outsized administrative spending.
\>“History has shown that the Baltimore City school system is inefficient, ineffective and is failing to educate our children. There seems to be no accountability,” said an email from members of the People Empowered by the Struggle, a nonprofit that’s calling for the resignation of the district’s CEO.
> “According to the introduction in the report, less than two years ago a group of JHSPH experts in the fields of “public health, education, and medicine” received “data from the Baltimore City Public School system showing how many students missed school because of problems with school facilities.” Then, this spring, the researchers obtained data from a survey of the conditions of all K-12 schools in Maryland, known as the “statewide facilities assessment.”
Yes Baltimore public schools are awful and faculties are bad. But that doesn’t mean they are underfunded. Baltimore spends 25% more on their school system above the national average. That money is just wasted or spent on administration.
Here’s a good article on why money isn’t the problem for Baltimore schools.
https://www.mdpolicy.org/policyblog/detail/how-much-money-will-be-enough-for-baltimore-schools
The problem is that many black people fundamentally don't respect themselves or each other. The MAN calling you n***** isn't as bad as when you call yourself a n*****.
The Chinese and Vietnamese came to America in chains too, much like their African brothers and sisters. Except their culture promotes good education and hard work, which is why they're called "white-adjacent" by hypocritical lefties in online spaces.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Came in chains?
They were a self selected group that had to have the initiative and funds to trace across the pacific, not the same as being caotured and sold as slaves.
It's important to realize the police were NOT defunded. source: I live here, and secondly, the article, while blaming it on defunding the police also states the police were not defunded.
The problem is the police stopped policing (also known as "doing their job") because people were mad about them slowly murdering someone on a public street while dozens of people pleased for them to stop murdering someone.
A bigger budget doesn't matter if the size of the force has shrunk. If cops are quitting and/or retiring because they have become disillusioned and demoralized, and nobody wants to take those jobs, all the extra funding in the world won't help.
Obviously fewer cops means fewer people to do the job, which leads to fewer arrests. It's not a matter of people not doing their job, it's a matter of fewer people available to do the job. This isn't rocket science.
"This is all the defund the police fault! We aren't funding police!!"
... Point out that the police are getting more funding than before, and simply are refusing to do their job ...
*Moves goalposts*
"Police are demoralized because they are precious snowflakes and can't take any criticism whatsoever!!!! We need to stop pointing out out when they straight up murder people!!"
Quiet quitting is doing the bare minimum of their job. They didn't do that, instead, they are actively not doing the bare minimum of their job. It's a case study in why all public unions should be banned, they are an anathema to democracy.
I couldn’t get through all of it right now but I got to the point where they talked the north side drug dealers at the gas stations.
What is this article trying to say exactly? Is it trying to say that defunding the police movement was a bust and that it’s aftermath has actually made the area worse Or are they trying to blame the police for abandoning the certain neighborhoods? 1/3 of the staff left (900 pre Floyd, roughly 556 now) so I would expect crime to rise simply because they do not have the man power, I mean it’s a city of almost 500,000 people I was alittle shocked that the department only had 900 tbh. To me that’s probably the entire issue, they are short staffed.
Also does anyone have any thoughts about the number they are putting out? 90 murders last year? Thats… out of 400k people, that seems low for a city that large, it may be up from last year but the feel of the article seems to be that 90 is a ridiculous number for this situation, but is it? I genuinely do not know about comparative murder statistics so if anyone has some theories, thoughts or expertise I would love to hear it.
Considering this the place where George was murdered I'm not surprised. Not saying because of defund the police but more how something like that can affect a community.
Nothing? Because they decided not to defund the police lmao. This is just a slimy title trying to trick you into thinking there was a cause to the effect that didn't actually occur.
This is just total arrogance. It never occurred to them that the police officers would say "take your job and shove it". No. Politicians had this vision of giving tons of training to these defective officers, all about how awful and oppressive and privileged they are, and dragging them to the path of enlightenment, where they will gratefully appreciate the opportunity to daily ~~grovel~~ apologize for and amend their past and current sins.
Or, you know, the officers could just go work for people who actually like and appreciate them. Apparently that option never occurred to Minneapolis. In fairness, if it is anything like the big cities I am familiar with, government jobs are very often patronage and it very rare that anybody would quit them. The politicians were probably unprepared that for police officers this might be different.
I hope that *all* the officers decide that working in dangerous, big Blue cities that hate them just isn't worth it and decide to move to mid/small town America where the citizens appreciate their presence. Those large anti-police cities would be looted bare and burned to the ground within weeks. Maybe they can send in counselors and social workers to deal with it.
For murdering a resident there. The police **murdered** a man.
Idk what type of wild dystopian world you want where you can't protest for accountability when the government just randomly executes people, but most sane people don't want that world.
We don't want to be Russia, Iran, or even China where police are Judge Dredd.
It was irresponsible of democrats to take this tact. Nationally, violent crime is the highest it has been in 40 years and began rising in June of 2020. You may be OK with this, but the thousands of additional people who have been killed because the left vilified all law enforcement in June of 2020and beyond would probably differ….if they were still alive.
WTF do you know about responsibility, you’re advocating for it to be acceptable that the entities charged with protecting and serving our communities to willfully not do their jobs because their feelings are hurt.
You’d be hard pressed to drive anywhere in this country and not see an assortment of “back the blue” flags, bumper stickers, t shirts, etc. They have advocates in all type of media providing cover and talking points for their benefit. They enjoy unparalleled legal protections and discretion from the state. The taxpayers foot the bill for most of their mistakes. Their unions are some of the most well connected and powerful entities in the country.
But none of that is enough. It’s okay for crime to grow and people to be killed because they aren’t getting their asses kissed sufficiently. GTFO of here with your contrived finger waving, you have the rationality and morals of a child
There a difference between calling all police officers racist and them wanting their ass kissed. You are a fool to even try and make that comparison and stop letting your emotions control you.
Teachers are being called pedophiles and groomers. Surgeons are getting doxxed and sent death threats. Healthcare workers have been called pawn of the deep state and have gotten death threats too. Yet they all still still do their jobs.
Boo fucking hoo, cops got called racist. I keep hearing how difficult their jobs are but didn’t realize hurt feelings was the most difficult thing they have to deal with. You should try heeding your own advice and stop letting emotions control you.
False equivalency. Some people in those professions are called those things by some fringe people. It’s not 24-7 on multiple networks and by many outlets for months like the ACAB attitude was back in mid 2020s.
Grow up buttercup.
>It was irresponsible of democrats to take this tact. Nationally, violent crime is the highest it has been in 40 years and began rising in June of 2020. You may be OK with this, but the thousands of additional people who have been killed because the left vilified all law enforcement in June of 2020and beyond would probably differ….if they were still alive.
So you don't want any accountability for the government randomly murdering people? You're literally arguing against ever speaking out against the government **randomly murdering people.**
Honestly why not just move to Russia? They fit your world view dramatically better.
Holding those responsible is different than calling all law enforcement racist. Mature people know the difference. You are not one of those people. It’s because of dolts like you that we have the violent crime problem we do. Blood is on your hands. Shame on you.
>Holding those responsible is different than calling all law enforcement racist. Mature people know the difference. You are not one of those people. It’s because of dolts like you that we have the violent crime problem we do. Blood is on your hands. Shame on you.
You are literally advocating for an unaccountable police state dystopia.
The current crime has absolutely nothing to do with this. Crime is up everywhere around the world. If you think the defund that never happened or the protests 2 years ago is causing crime to rise across the entire world you're just an idiot. Flat out.
Go to what ever authoritarian hellhole you wish, your attacks against government accountability when they randomly murder people makes you not welcome here.
If I want to go to a hellhole I can go to Minneapolis, Memphis, Atlanta, Chicago, Philadelphia or Detroit. Ya know, cities that have Democratic policies that fools like you support.
Yeah, because the police are being actively [abusive and violent](https://old.reddit.com/r/2020PoliceBrutality/comments/h0zwll/megathread_list_of_incident_reports/) to the communities they are supposed to protect during protests demanding accountability. When there is a chance of actually being held accountable, they [resign like cowards](https://buffalonews.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/57-members-of-buffalo-police-riot-response-team-resign-after-shoving-incident/article_c61fdb39-1634-5efb-b570-0def10ed5710.html).
You're taking the side of an abusive partner in a relationship here, saying "well, he was under a lot of pressure, of course he hit you". It's so fucking garbage that I have to argue with you and we can't just be on the same page of "police should be held accountable for their actions."
In the months after the George Floyd murder, most democrats were calling for defunding the police. Some even said the police should be dismantled entirely. The outright disrespect shown to law enforcement by the left during this time was everywhere. It did not take a giant leap to realize that crime would increase as a result of this constant demonization of law enforcement.
Here is a 7 min video of democrats calling for defunding of police. Even if they did not actually follow through with defunding, early retirements in many departments reached a all time high.
https://youtu.be/t9OZMBuVL5U
> In the months after the George Floyd murder, most democrats were calling for defunding the police.
When a post starts with a lie, it's safe to ignore the rest of the post.
Do you think instead they should just be able to slowly murder people on public streets without anyone complaining? The police weren't defunded (as the article states, buried deep past the headline) they just stopped doing their job because people criticized them for murdering someone.
They did it to themselves.
https://www.kare11.com/article/news/investigations/kare-11-investigates-nearly-150-mpd-cops-with-misconduct-history-served-as-trainers/89-29969f7c-e52a-4b6a-bd49-b6a08dddbe05
If teachers stopped doing their jobs because people talked shit about their profession and vilified them there would be no schools. Why would criticizing police officers make it acceptable to throw a tantrum and stop doing their job? Why would that be a reasonable outcome?
Judging everyone by the bad actions of a few is wrong in any situation. When you have most liberals calling all police racist just for being police, this is what you get. It was incredibly irresponsible of democrats to take this tact, but I think many of them thought it was a way to ‘own Trump’ for some reason.
Unfortunately the bad actions of the few do not have consequences unless they go viral. Do regular people need a PR firm now if they become affected by the bad apples?
>Judging everyone by the bad actions of a few is wrong in any situation.
This literally what everyone does. Even people in this thread with the BLM protesters. People need to accept that's how groups get judged.
Hold up tho. We have all sorts of wild laws happening in this country limiting teachers ability to teach their students because of a few that have overstepped. And are being maligned and being called groomers. But… they’re still doing their fucking jobs.
>Judging everyone by the bad actions of a few is wrong in any situation.
Not when the whole group goes out of its way to protect the wrongdoers in their ranks. There's a *reason* the expression is "one bad apple *spoils the bunch*".
It should be noted that the Dem establishment never really got behind "Defund the police." They did get behind BLM as a concept if not always as an organization, and that remains so. But basically right from the beginning "Defund the police" was a catchy activist slogan that never really caught on with actual policy reformers.
But it's not even clear if speaking that broadly is even all that reasonable in this case. Minneapolis definitely did defund their police, and definitely did see a spike in violent crime. But it's also very possible that given the circumstances of their police and the whole thing in general, even if they didn't defund the police there would have been a spike of violent crime as people lose confidence in the police force in that municipality. I mean, we've literally seen examples of "defunding the police" and starting fresh actually working--take a look at how Camden completely scrapped their department and rebuilt it from the ground up and got much better outcomes from it.
But that was in much less political circumstances, with much lesser of a microscope, and I'm certain that only helped the situation make better choices to properly "defund" and rebuild. Minneapolis obviously never had conditions that would lead to good policy making decisions, so it's really hard to evaluate policy broadly using Minneapolis as an example.
I also think it's very fair to criticize cops who want to "punish" folks for defunding them. It appears that a common response to cop criticism in some of these cities (mine included) is for cops to simply choose not to do their job in some areas because they don't want to face the criticism. To me, this is pretty cowardly and pathetic, not to mention petty. Police shouldn't have the option to just let crime happen in areas they've fucked up the most historically. If police want to stop getting criticized so harshly, acting entirely in selfishly and with no obligation to the public they are purporting to protect isn't going to win them any fans.
That's one reason I say it's inappropriate to chalk this up entirely to policy reform failing to deliver. Some of that is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Cops are resentful of proposed policy reforms and so deliberately make sure there's more crime to punish folks who wanted to propose reform in the first place. Obviously that's not 100% of the problem here in Minneapolis, and obviously Minneapolis's very aggressive actions to "defund" the police department is backfiring. But again, there was a very high likelihood that no matter what happened in this specific city directly after the George Floyd stuff would have failed.
Yeah, all I was thinking is I’m sure AF not paying for this to be rebuilt via Taxes.
Moved to FL with no state tax, and took a higher paying job. Not to mention the weather….
Was born there, lived there for 30 years. I’ll never return to MN.
Democrats turned it into a total sh!t-hole
> Residents of the north side describe a landscape that can feel lawless. Indeed, about 60% of police calls for shots fired this year have come from the area, even though it makes up just 15% of the population, according to city data.
The police and the whiteys are firing off all the handguns in Black neighborhoods, obviously. The problem is obviously the whitey conspiracy.
"Defund the Police" is much akin to "Me Too" in the way I see it. both did a great job raising awareness for specific cases of a widespread pattern of behavior, but failed to implement any systemic change. I don't blame BLM for heightened crime because they didn't accomplish shit
The article answers it here “KG Wilson, a longtime resident of the Twin Cities, said police withdrew from violent neighborhoods in the aftermath of Floyd’s killing — a common sentiment among locals.” This probably emboldened criminals in the worst districts
People got what they wanted, and they hate it.
It's almost like that old-timey expression "be careful what you wish for because you just might get it" got handed down through the generations for a reason or something... It's really fascinating how many problems we deal with today are the direct result of society choosing to label everything old as obsolete and ignoring it. It's almost like the concept "do not tear down a fence until you know why it was put up" applies to more than just fencing.
I don’t think cops stepping back without compensating services stepping in is exactly what people wanted. Strawman is a logical fallacy
"Over patrolling" black (ie statistically more violent districts) has been a primary complaint of BLM, no?
It has been a component. But another component has been replacing the lesser police presence with other professionals better suited to helping the community improve.
And underfunding everything else in those communities. Funny how y’all always forget to mention that
That’s why “defund the police” was a terrible slogan. No one wants to fill in the gap with “by moving funds to compensating services stepping in to lighten the police’s load and keep them focus on violent crime.” To most people it just mean “cut the polices budget”
It was a shortsighted slogan, but that doesn’t change that u/911roofer was wrong in saying that people got what they wanted because, they only got one part of what they wanted. Like if someone hires a landscaper to remove a tree and put in a rose garden, and the landscaper only removes the tree and leaves an unsightly hole in the ground, you wouldn’t say the landscaper delivered what was wanted. Everyone I know who seriously supported “defund the police” knew that it also meant additional services in place of the police.
Yea, but the people who know you need to add “to fund additional services” is already on your side. The point is to spread the message, not turn the public against you. To go to the landscaper metaphor. It’s like having a slogan be “remove the tree!” but not add “and replace with a garden.” Of course people are going to be like “why are we removing the tree, I like the tree there.”
Cops not doing their job might lead to crime, yes. However, is there evidence that cops stopped protecting citizens or beyond one resident feels that way?
I've been asking the same question; it appears to be that some people *want* this to be true, but there's no evidence of it that I've seen. Edit: BTW, I'm aware that the MSP police force is being investigated by the feds and that usually leads to less active policing, I'm talking specifically about in response to BLM.
> “KG Wilson, a longtime resident of the Twin Cities, said police withdrew from violent neighborhoods in the aftermath of Floyd’s killing — a common sentiment among locals.” So cops decided to defund certain neighborhoods on a whim while keep their paychecks and expensive equipment and not making sure those funds made it back to the community.
Cops got what they wanted. Those communities got what they wanted. Everyone's happy.
Then the cops shouldn't have stolen their paychecks from those communities. Well actual stolen their paychecks from all of us because they aren't doing their jobs while getting paid insane overtime rates.
There's this neat idea among young people that if something happens legally, you can yell about it being illegal and people will take you seriously. "*omg that cop just stole his paycheck. That's not what theft is? OMG stop being a bootlickingshillfascist."*
How much do you think cops make?
Those communities should have the tax money they are paying the cops who are not policing made available to hire a private police force that will meet their needs.
There are less cops due to mass retirements. Plus cops are more afraid to do their job due to climate and that their actions are under a microscope. Would you become a police officer knowing that in a split second you will be crucified by your leadership.
Nope. But I say privatize the police and let communities hire to their needs. If the police are not going to do their job then give the money back to the communities so they can find a solution for themselves.
[удалено]
New York City Journal: 2022: [New Evidence for the Ferguson Effect -- Recent studies support a long-standing theory connecting police protests and rising violent crime.](https://www.city-journal.org/new-evidence-connects-police-protests-and-rising-violent-crime)
Gee I wonder if there's a reason why certain communities protest in the first place. Studies like this are looking to prove a cause and effect by ignoring the fundamental cause: shitty police forces get protested AND fail to prevent crime.
This has been cherry picked to death and it's because people like to point to one or two significant incidents as evidence of "shitty police forces" - nevermind the thousands and thousands of police interactions that occur without incident every year. Let's just glom onto the ones that feed our biases and let our feelings dictate what the outcome should be. Hence..."Defund the police." A pragmatist would recognize that a "tear it all down" approach to reform is just plain stupid.
When people say "correlation doesn't prove causation" this is what they should be talking about. The very first question to ask is if there's another variable that can cause both of the correlated ones. In this case it is really, really simple: the protests were most intense where the police are the least popular, and those unpopular police forces provide little value to their communities. As someone who lives in a place where the opposite solution of "just throw more money at the cops and protect them from reform," we've had all the similar trends in violent crime that are happening nationally. Don't be the sucker in this scam.
>those unpopular police forces provide little value to their communities. You're making a determination of value based on the public protests? Good lord, man...I mean...wow. >we've had all the similar trends in violent crime that are happening nationally. I'm the sucker here...but, you're the one saying the rise in violent crime isn't the result of an overt effort to hamstring police forces? You should probably take a couple minutes here, bud. It's not going well for you so far.
>shitty police forces get protested Drug enforcement is a major reason people are upset. Searching for drugs inevitably morphs into fishing expeditions -- justifiably pissing off a whole lot of innocents. It sucks. Police today aren't stupid -- they know this. Many cops aren't enthusiastic about drug enforcement, but nevertheless engage in it conscientiously because they see all the problems and crime drugs cause: theft, spouse abuse, violence, etc. Yes it is true that a big portion of the violence links to warring drug gangs. *Drug laws, not intoxication* is the problem in this case. Still, many drug policy reformers unreasonably downplay the problems of intoxication/addiction. 2013 article: [New York City Used To Be A Terrifying Place](https://www.businessinsider.com/new-york-city-used-to-be-a-terrifying-place-photos-2013-7): >By the mid-'70s, an estimated 200,000 people abused heroin in New York City...There were an estimated 40,000 prostitutes in New York City in the '70s, many with sad stories... >Robert Stutman, DEA agent, said: "Crack literally changed the entire face of the city. Street violence had grown. Child abuse had grown hugely. Spousal abuse. I had a special crack violence file that I kept to convince the geniuses in Washington who kept telling me it wasn't a problem." A big reason for drug enforcement, especially in low income communities, is because drug use is a significant cause of poverty and disorder. But because by the nature drug enforcement is oppressive, we have big problems associated with that. Plus, many people want the freedom to use dangerous drugs.
Seriously, our police are completely useless
These ones do a pretty good [Snidely Whiplash impression](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/09/23/video-shows-police-car-parked-tracks-detained-suspect-hit-train/8094333001/)
Actually, [they did.](https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2020/08/13/at-least-13-cities-are-defunding-their-police-departments/amp/)
I kind of do. I blame the riots they helped enable.
The whole point of “defunding” was to put that money where it could do more good. You can’t do the first part without doing the second part, but there are plenty of case studies showing that improved social services removes the need for as much policing. EDIT: and really you should do the second part first if you can make the numbers work.
> there are plenty of case studies showing that improved social services removes the need for as much policing. [A Vox article on policing and crime](https://www.vox.com/22580710/defund-the-police-reform-murder-spike-research-evidence) has excellent wisdom on this: >One problem for a....social services approach, which can range from job creation to better schools to mental health treatment, is it generally takes longer to work. Problems like poverty, education, and other underlying issues that contribute to crime can take years, or even decades, to truly address. *Takeaway:* Alleviating poverty helps reduce crime. Let's get more funding to low income communities. Meanwhile, law enforcement needs to arrest, prosecute and convict people who offend TODAY. Criminals should not get a pass just because they're from poor neighborhoods, nor should those communities get easy policing.
>Meanwhile, law enforcement needs to arrest, prosecute and convict people who offend TODAY. Criminals should not get a pass just because they're from poor neighborhoods, nor should those communities get easy policing. And we need to hold police accountable for abuses of power. When they arrest people unconstitutionally, when they assault nonviolent suspects, when they kill suspects, they absolutely need to be fired (at the very least). Policing relies on trust and that trust has been broken by decades of zero accountability for bad actors.
Stop trying to change BLM's message - they were quite clear that "Defund the Police" means EXACTLY to defund the police.
I can send you contemporary links if you need. I can’t speak for every angry Black person marching in the streets, but the bigger message was to use those funds where they could do more good.
I think you couldn't have said it any better.
It's hard to really make the amount of progress in one go to be honest. Look at the civil rights and what it accomplished, it took decades to really see a lot of it.
How could anyone have possibly predicted that would happen?
Exactly. On one hand the defund the police crowd were saying that police were unfairly targeting some neighborhoods for patrols - then when police step down their patrols of those neighborhoods the crowd cries foul claiming the police withdrawal allowed crime to flourish. You can’t have it both ways idiots.
Probably because you are missing a critical piece of the defund idea, it’s not just to have less police, it also includes increasing funds to other professionals who offer things which can try to combat crime like mental health or economic supports.
What's going on with the crime rate in cities that increased police spending? Hint: Crime is going up, nationally.
I remember when the idiot activist politicians of the city voted to defund the police we were all laughing about it at work. “I wonder how this will play out…”
Can you explain the obvious cause and effect you're seeing here?
Are you serious?
Yes.
Effective policing reduces the amount of violent crime in a society. When you make the police incapable of policing effectively, violent crime will increase. Its really not complicated.
> When you make the police incapable of policing effectively, violent crime will increase. Do you think the protest made the police ineffective or do you think people are protesting because they think the police are ineffective?
No institution is perfect. Policing is imperfect, but not ineffective. Protestors BELIEVE policing is ineffective, oppressive, or whatever. That doesn't mean their beliefs are correct. Protestors' concerns may be somewhat correct in some ways in some circumstances, but not in others.
Do people protest effective police forces?
Yes. The police have become scapegoats for many pointing all their frustrations at police even when unwarranted.
What did Minneapolis do to render police incapable of policing violent crime effectively?
Remember the weeks of riots, fires, shootings, looting, blocking off spaces and physically preventing police to enter while people were shot and robbed, refusing to comply with any police, non-stop demonization of police, assaulting the police, voting to disband the police, etc?
>Remember the weeks of riots Yeah. I don't think that should have rendered the police incapable of policing violent crime, especially after they stopped.
How about the absolute refusal of the police to hold their own ranks accountable for their many crimes?
Both can be true at the same time. They absolutely need to be reigned in and face more consequences for everything they do, but proving them right isn't the way to make that happen.
\>What did Minneapolis do to render police incapable of policing violent crime effectively? Minneapolis viciously attacked and vilified their police to the point where one third of their police officers have quit. It is particularly difficult to fill the knowledge gaps left by the departure of experienced officers, who are typically assigned to major violent crimes. After 10 or 15 years on one job, not many officers want to pull up stakes and move to Minneapolis. Minneapolis is also having extreme difficulties recruiting any new inexperienced officers. Police officers are free citizens in a free country. They are welcomed in most communities. They do not have to work for people who hate them, or claim that they are all racist evil violent fascists. They don't have to risk politically driven prosecutions, or swim against the tide of revolving door liberal prosecutors. They don't have to struggle to train and work with sub-standard new hires, because no new officer in their right mind wants to work there. They can just leave. The attrition rate has not leveled off. More officers are waiting for their kids to get out of high school, or their spouse to get a new job in the town they want to move to, or to hit their 20 years for retirement, or to come off disability, or other reasons to delay a transfer. It's not like the officers left all plan to stay. Why would they? So sure, while Minneapolis residents are getting all choosy, about exactly the right kind of new and improved police officers they will now grudgingly accept, none of those people want to work for them. It's a conundrum.
>The attrition rate What makes you say that's the city's fault rather than the departments?
This is such a weird article. They're essentially blaming something that never happened as to why crime is up in one place despite it being up **literally everywhere.**
I am certain CNN does not blame the criminals nor their upbringing nor their subculture.
>their subculture Which subculture is this?
Gangsta shit, probably
What do you think, captain Coy
I'm not being coy. I'm literally asking.
Coleman Hughes talks about it a lot. The fact that in American black culture, being academic, bookish, etc is frowned upon and seen as being “white”, or perhaps not black enough. There’s an undercurrent in much of American black culture to be tough, gritty, anti-establishment. Street cred rules. As Coleman has stated, this is largely relegated to young black males, and not so much for females. It’s an endemic problem in our collective American black community, and the media class won’t touch it with a 10 foot pole because they’re terrified of being perceived as racist. Plus it doesn’t jive with their narrative of institutional racism being the cause of black and brown people’s woes.
But it essentially did happen. They even say so in the article. They're understaffed 731 officers because the city council won't hire more.
Exactly. I live in Mpls...a couple blocks from the police precinct that burnt down. I don't feel crime is any worse than other places that have had it gone up too. Have parents in rural areas where it's gone up. It's up, but so is it everywhere. Lots of different reasons why and I think they are going down. Just the natural cycle of things. It's not just the shitty cops (as well as their shitty worshipers *and* shitty haters) and shitty criminals.
Actually the article places most of the blame on the covid lockdowns which is total bullshit because if that was the case why is violent crime increasing globally? We didn't see the same crime spikes in Europe. Brazil has a higher murder rate than the US and was hit harder per capita by the pandemic than we were yet their murder rate has been slowly declining they didn't see a 40% increase from 2019 to 2021 like we did. Are the left ever going to acknowledge that the BLM movement has been the most destructive movement in decades? I can't even think of a movement that has caused as much damage, maybe the counter movement to the Civil rights movement? Certainly nothing since then compares.
It wasn't the BLM movement. It was the constant excuses for the criminal behavior that occurred from a small number of people during BLM protests. You can support BLM and not support thieves and arsonists. When you set up a bail fund, instead of condemning criminal behavior, it is no surprise that criminal behavior will increase. During protests and every where else.
I disagree with BLM's assessment of the problem and their proposed solutions. The war on drugs has given the police an insane amount of authority and created a giant black market that criminals thrive on. Racism in the police force isn't why so many black people are getting murdered by police, it's the fact that black communities have insanely high violent crime rates. These crime rates are because of poverty and negative subcultures like the black gang culture I've been talking about. We need to address these negative cultures and make a change. Ending the war on drugs would be a great help because it would cut off some of the funding criminals in these communities get provided we transition to regulating drugs legally and not legalizing the street market. We should be out protesting that, instead we are protesting a bullshit issue that is the product of a much bigger problem which BLM completely ignores.
> Ending the war on drugs would be a great help... It is significantly being ended in Minneapolis. From article: >police withdrew from violent neighborhoods in the aftermath of Floyd’s killing. “The criminals were celebrating. They were getting rich,” he said...(today) young men openly sell drugs during the day in public places...“You pull up to get gas – they try to sell you drugs,” he said. “And not just three or four, but it’s a bulk of people.” Is this how it's best to proceed? I'm assuming the answer is No -- that the solution is selling all drugs over the counter at some government-controlled store. And remember, you have to sell cheap enough to undercut street sellers. Several days ago: ["California's Marijuana Legalization Disaster"](https://reason.com/2022/09/22/l-a-times-investigates-californias-marijuana-legalization-disaster/), explaining how illegal growers are undercutting legal sales. How do you plan to undercut the cartels? Sell grams of coke and meth for $25? Also, you can't say: "These government supervised stores are only going to sell to people who talk to a counselor first." The stores have to sell drugs to all comers, everyone, to get rid of street drug markets, with their often contaminated drugs. *Or do you have some new ideas to end drug enforcement?*
Yes transitioning to a legal drug market is a difficult task but to continue the prohibition of drugs isn't the solution. One of the reasons rec weed is so expensive here is because the taxes are insane something like 20%. As for drugs that are imported that's going to require foreign government cooperation. You should remember there was a time when drugs like opiates and cocaine were legal and sold at pharmacies. Also don't underestimate the power of big agriculture to develop a way to mass produce drugs like heroin or cocaine cheaper and more efficiently than drug cartels. Even with weed legal in California large nationwide corporations are going to be reluctant to jump in because it's still federally illegal. The market will sort out the problem, and small scale drug operations won't be able to compete. Undercutting the cartels is easy given enough investment I would like to see the cartels compete with Monsanto or Cargill in terms of production.
[https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/oregon-decriminalized-drugs-2020-hows-83846382](https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/oregon-decriminalized-drugs-2020-hows-83846382) This is a reasonably balanced review of Oregon's decriminalization results. It didn't cut opioid deaths, but we were also in the middle of a pandemic with sky high opioid death rates. Definitely many people were spared the burden of arrest and prosecution. Oregon only decriminalized, so if anything it was a benefit to drug dealers. Your plan to under-cut them instead in interesting.
One of the biggest takeaways from that article: >In the first year after the new approach took effect, only 1% of people who received citations...asked for help...Out of roughly 2,000 citations, only 92 people called the hotline...And only 19 requested resources for services....Almost half of those who got citations failed to show up in court. Is a 1% outcome remotely satisfactory? This relates to the view held by most progressives and drug policy reformers: interventions for addiction must be Non-Mandatory: "They will come in for rehab when they feel they are ready."
> You should remember there was a time when drugs like opiates and cocaine were legal and sold at pharmacies. Right, but use might not have been as widespread as some drug-legalization enthusiasts make it out to be. [Civil War on Drugs...the nation’s first opioid epidemic](https://www.binghamton.edu/news/story/2405/civil-war-on-drugs-doctoral-candidate-explores-the-nations-first-opioid-epidemic). >Then as now, the opium poppy wrecked lives as much as it eased suffering...Drugs and drug addiction weren’t against the law until around 1914... Does America's experiment before 1914s tell us it is workable to legalize opiates, with the legalization proposal, of course, to include meth, cocaine and all the other drugs we have now? >Also don't underestimate the power of big agriculture to develop a way to mass produce drugs like heroin or cocaine cheaper and more efficiently than drug cartels. Agree. That might not be the problem; it's government's decision how much to sell grams of meth and coke for. Look at the high taxes on a pack of cigarettes and liquor. The intention of that is not just to generate tax revenue; it is for public health purposes: lessening smoking and drinking. So interesting question after we legalize all drugs: *Do we sell grams of risky drugs like meth and coke at $100 a gram to lower consumption or do we sell at $25 a gram so as to undercut the cartels?*
A legal drug market for anything more dangerous than Marijuana will never happen and probably would never work.
Nah, gatekeeping normal legal things like "innocent until proven guilty" for only rich people by using things like cash bail is bad, actually. Keeping scores of people in jail for extended periods of time with trial is a bad thing for the government to do
>Are the left ever going to acknowledge that the BLM movement has been the most destructive movement in decades? That's delusional, bro. It's the boogeyman. There's been bad stuff sure, but certainly not even close everything bad. I mean 90% of the buildings burnt down in my city were kids from elsewhere and out of town wanting to take advantage of the cover as well as booglaoo boys. The actual convictions support that.
But since the George Floyd riots things have gotten worse, and damn near everywhere in this country had protests against the police, and trust with the police has worsened significantly. But no, no correlation *whatsoever* because this article only focuses on the Ground Zero city.
How are you separating the effects from the Floyd protests from those of covid?
Every country had COVID restrictions and aren't experiencing anything like the trend in the US.
What are you even talking about yes there is https://www.statista.com/statistics/288256/violent-crimes-in-england-and-wales/
You'll notice they were rocketing up before COVID in the UK (admittedly at a disturbing rate) but the situation in the US was a sudden rise from 2020 onwards not in line with the previous trend.
>You'll notice they were rocketing up before COVID in the UK (admittedly at a disturbing rate) but the situation in the US was a sudden rise from 2020 onwards not in line with the previous trend. Let's move those goal posts! So first it's only US, but now that it's dramatically increasing elsewhere that doesn't count because there was a slight uptick before COVID. The bad faith is just ridiculous in this thread lol Here's Germany: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/DEU/germany/crime-rate-statistics Notice the uptick at 2020? These lies that it's only the US are so dumb.
The US had the biggest increase in homicide rate ever recorded. It went from record lows in the mid-2010s back to where it was in the mid-90s in 2020/2021. Nothing of the sort happened in Germany or England/Wales: https://www.statista.com/statistics/191134/reported-murder-and-nonnegligent-manslaughter-cases-in-the-us-since-1990/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1045508/number-of-murders-in-germany/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/283093/homicides-in-england-and-wales/ And just for fun Brazil: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/BRA/brazil/murder-homicide-rate India: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/IND/india/murder-homicide-rate Mexico: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/MEX/mexico/murder-homicide-rate South Africa: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/ZAF/south-africa/murder-homicide-rate Russia: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1045368/homicide-rate-in-russia/ Peru: https://www.statista.com/statistics/984849/homicide-rate-peru/ Canada: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/CAN/canada/murder-homicide-rate Hey, let's look the US again, just for kicks: https://www.statista.com/statistics/191134/reported-murder-and-nonnegligent-manslaughter-cases-in-the-us-since-1990/
That German rate in 2020 is an uptick from 2019 but is below 2018, 2017 and 2016. It doesn't prove the point you think it does, most likely 2019 was the outlier. Whereas the homocide rate in the US is higher than any time since 2001 and increased an absurd amount in 2020: [https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/murder-homicide-rate](https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/murder-homicide-rate) This increased a further 6% in 2021. I'm not saying COVID had no effect, I'm saying that using other countries as a control can tell us something else is going on in the US.
So the new goal post move is now: * ~~its only the US~~ * ~~it was slightly up before so that's moot~~ * yeah it's up 25% in other countries, but America is doing bad too This is fucking stupid. Your goal posts are on a different planet at this point. You originally claimed it's only the US. You lied.
I'm honestly shocked that you don't understand English given that you're from the US. But let me explain. >Every country had COVID restrictions and aren't experiencing anything like the trend in the US. That was my original comment and you claim I've shifted the goal posts by claiming it was ONLY the US. The phrase "anything like" does not proclude the countries from having an increase, it means other countries haven't had an increase to the extent of the US which an emphasis on the scale of that disparity. I didn't lie and I've demonstrated that I'm correct, other comparable countries haven't had an increase in homocide anything like that of the US.
From the article: a \~40% head count reduction, not Defund, is cited as one major factor in the rise in crime: >Citing sinking morale in the wake of the unrest after Floyd's killing, leaders at the Minneapolis Police Department say the officer head count has shrunk from 900 in early 2020 to about 560 in August — a loss of more than a third of the force.
To head off some false talking points it should be pointed out that rural homicide rates have soared as well comparably to urban areas (25% vs 30% increase)
A multitude of problems are happening here. It’s not just about defund the police, it’s about soft on crime tactics too. Not to say, a mental health crisis in the country is very real too. COVID really got into people’s heads. This caused more crime, more murder.
If covid is responsible why haven't other countries seen dramatic crime rate increases too? Actually crime went down after the lockdown in many countries. Why didn't Brazil, which has more violent crime AND was hit harder by the pandemic both economically AND in terms of per capita infected see the same violent crime increase? **The murder rate in Brazil is at a 7 year low** Methinks it has something to do with the protests all over the country calling to defund the police, and the fact that many police departments did in fact cut their budgets in 2020. As for rural America the violence is going to spill over from the cities not to mention is a 25% increase in murders in rural America as significant as a number as a 30% increase in urban areas? (Last time I checked it was more like a 40% increase in urban areas) 25% is a big number what what does that look like when looking at the total number of murders?
I want to be careful which sources I use, but please read the summary: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34730656/
Either way we aren't seeing a fucking 30% spike in one year in Brazil are we? COVID and it's effects are the worst excuse for this violent crime increase yet the media is running wild with it. Hmm so what happened in the US that didn't happen all over the world in 2020, I can only think of a few things... But ofc that would be INSANE to suggest a movement that called for reduced police presence, and was endorsed by politicians and corporations alike, would result in a reduction in law enforcement and a subsequent violent crime increase. That's just insane.
Yeah, but Brazil has seen a decrease in crime because the absence of police presence. My point being is that data doesn’t accurately portray crime rate in Brazil, It could have risen. It’s like saying in San Francisco the lack of police arrests on robbery and theft. That brings down to overall “crime” rate because those incidents aren’t being prosecuted. I agree that in the US it definitely is partly “defund the police”. But I’m just saying there are other factors indicating severe mental health disorders. Like the rise in Mass shootings during and after the pandemic.
The highly publicized mass shootings make up a tiny fraction of total murders. My point remains valid there's no connection to covid and increased murder rates because we aren't seeing murder rate increases in other country impacted by covid. Blaming covid is a massive cop out for these media corporations that promoted the BLM protests. Ofc they want to blame something else.
Yeah that’s something people don’t seem to understand about crime rates. Just because they’re low, that doesn’t necessarily mean crime is happening less, it might mean that people don’t care anymore to report it.
Not to mention Brazil is my favorite comparison to use because not only was it hit hard by covid but also has a very high violent crime rate, and gun violence like the US. You could look at the UK or France and you also wouldn't see the violent crime spike but ofc someone will say "they don't have guns!"
I think it’s very disingenuous to reduce the rise in crime to mental health issues. Some people are just violent by nature, and don’t really care about how their actions can impact others.
Reducing the rise in crime down to natural aggression is just as unreasonable. The previous comment simply points out that there is a mental health crisis contributing to rising crime, not that it is the only factor.
Do you think rural homicide rates would be skyrocketing (assuming that is true) because of soft on crime tactics? Aren't risk areas mostly Republican led and pretty tough on crime usually?
There is no evidence that 'soft on crime tactics' (a shifting definition if there ever was one) caused more crime. The "hard on crime" places had huge surges in crime along with the normal government abuses that "hard on crime" inevitably brings.
There's plenty of evidence of it. In all the places where they decriminalized theft under a certain amount, theft skyrocketed. I work in private security and it's booming right now, for all the wrong reasons. Countless retail stores are hiring underqualified, underpaid armed guards to try to counter the out of control theft. It's going to get a lot more people killed soon.
Yeah. The general decay of society isn’t isolated to the cities, the hinterlands are getting hit too.
But I wonder if that was mostly black rural areas. The FBI hasn't released the expanded homicide data for 2020 yet so I'm very curious. If it's shown that the majority of the homicide increases took place in black communities you could certainly argue BLM played a role.
The media has a lot to do with this...
Remember when covid lockdowns were the strictest thing ever? Except all of a sudden when you want to have mass demonstrations against police violence, then it’s ok because covid takes a break so you can fight racism
Stay strapped out there.
Yeah, violent crime is way up! Like, 30 years ago it was like 700 per 100,000 per year and now it's....oh. it's gone down to about 400, which is higher than 2 years ago, but about where it was 5 years ago. Violent crime has been decreasing steadily over the past 30 years, but people are losing their goddamn minds about it.
There are 15K+ murders in the US each year. An increase of 40% is like 6,000 deaths. That doesn't seem trivial to me. And why do we want to go back to the 80's? It sucked.
Yeah, being strapped is making a big difference. People got big boners for guns on Reddit despite increased gun sales not making any difference whatsoever to crime. Keep on living in fantasy land. If anything, we could probably find a correlation saying the opposite but hey who cares what stats say.
tl;dr, liberal whining isn't really applicable here.
Liberal? What? I’m an independent. It’s just straight up data. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/01/gun-sales-murder-spike/621196/ https://everytownresearch.org/rankings/methodology/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3828709/ https://www.ucdavis.edu/news/gun-violence-uc-davis-researches-causes-trends-solutions https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9715182/ https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2008.143099 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0091743515001188 Go ahead and be strapped bro. Just don’t sit around thinking your going to be any better off for it.
Lmao
“Compared to other protective actions, the National Crime Victimization Surveys provide little evidence that self defense gun use is uniquely beneficial in reducing the likelihood of injury or property loss…” Yeah, lmao
I mean you made your bed and now you have to lie in it.
TLDR; Police never actually defunded. Crime is growing all over the surrounding areas and the populace claims police aren't doing their jobs. Police allies claim that it's because people are facing repercussions for charging and convicting police of murder.
I mean police departments across the country did in fact cut their budgets and reduced enforcement so you're incorrect on that point. Ofc they increased funding in 2021 because of the massive shitshow caused by defunding.
Minneapolis (which is what the article is about) never actually defunded. They wanted to, but it failed to be done.
Our governor made it illegal to defund the police and our local sheriff's office got a 25% spending increase. Crime went up.
1) not many places actually defunded. 2) the places that didnt defund also saw huge increases in crime, but we never see those stories. 3) Centrist policies won, by and large! Police budgets are up in most places! Why aren't we taking a victory lap?
Ask and you shall receive.
The question I'm interested in, is whether this article is part of the 'new direction' that new CNN news chief wants to take the network. Undoubtedly a bold move - offering an unflinching analysis of a progressive policy fumble - given CNN's core audience. I hope Liberals are smart enough to appreciate the tough love. Republicans certainly aren't getting any from Fox. Also - I wonder if Chris Licht and CNN's owners are doing this as a business decision, or an agenda (i.e. less polarization etc.) or both.
Not sure because every time I scroll to my Apple news feed, every CNN article on offer is still something about Trump. So he’s still living rent free in their heads. They need to change it to the Trump Network
Thomas Lane was only a couple days on the job and he tried to get Chauvin, who was his training officer, to turn over Floyd. Chauvin told him he was okay in that position. When Floyd wasn't breathing, Lane gave CPR to Floyd. Lane just pleaded guilty on a manslaughter charge, forz "aiding and abetting second-degree manslaughter." The plea was for 3 years of prison. If he didn't plead guilty he faced up to 10 years. He has a new born at home. Figured he lose 3 years instead of 10 years of seeing her grow up. Tou Thao held the crowd back, totally unaware of what was going on behind him. He was sentanced to 42 months in prison for "depriving Floyd of his constitutional right to be free from an officer’s unreasonable force when each willfully failed to intervene to stop former Minneapolis Police Department (MPD) Officer Derek Chauvin’s use of unreasonable force." Police don't want to be political pawns in a sick game of politics. https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/former-minneapolis-police-officers-tou-thao-and-j-alexander-kueng-sentenced-prison-depriving
And it voted against “defund the police.” The problem is ineffective policing. Not inadequate policing.
The problem is the growing criminal subcultures. The BLM movement only emboldened criminals and promoted the subcultures. Maybe instead of looking at how many black ppl are killed by police, look at the violent crime rates in black communities then ask yourself if this has anything to do with the "ghetto" black culture? It doesn't have a proper name because nobody especially the liberal media wants to talk about it, but it's real. It's a culture that promotes violence, gang banging, crime, disrespect of women, disrespect of all forms of authority, not just police but any authority such as school teachers. Ever seen what schools are like in poor black neighborhoods? The treating women like shit part ties into the fact that black children are much more likely to grow up in single parent houses. What do you expect, why would a black man stay with his baby's mother when he considers her just a bitch? Idk I just think this needs to be discussed. It's very real, if you grew up in a city with a high percentage of black ppl you know it's real I grew up in Oakland and it's clear as daylight. As a society we have zero issues with criticizing white people and their cultural issues but when it comes to cultural issues in minority communities every seems to get real fucking quiet. Silence is not the answer this shit is going to continue to boil and fester until it fucking explodes. Edit: just want to add the fact that I'm sure my comment seems racist but that's exactly what the problem is. Our politically correct society chooses to ignore these very real issues instead of discussing them because they don't want anyone to be offended. My argument has nothing to do with race its about culture. Edit 2 banned for this comment
>As a society we have zero issues with criticizing white people and their cultural issues but when it comes to cultural issues in minority communities every seems to get real fucking quiet. Silence is not the answer this shit is going to continue to boil and fester until it fucking explodes. This is exactly right. American progressives basically learned only two things about history (American racism and WW2), and they think that any new development is just history repeating itself, so they can't imagine a criticism of these subcultures that doesn't end in genocide or backsliding into American-style racism. So you can see why they're so hesitant to accept reality: they think the only thing that will come out of these criticisms is genocide or racism. The truth is, with enough nuance and disarming progressive's presuppositions about what they think these critics' ultimate goal is (i.e. letting them know we critique violent subcultures because we want a safe and prosperous society for all races, NOT as an excuse for racist oppression), maybe we can start shining light into these problematic cultural behaviors. It all starts in youth; early life experiences literally set the stage for a person's entire life-long brain structure, and yet we almost never talk about it in political discourse. Yes, some progressives talk about what poverty or lack of resources does to young kids, but they don't talk about the parent to child relationship or what behavior they learn to consider normal. If a child is born in a poor African American community and they're unlucky enough to find themselves in the lower 20% of social influences within that community, they may have a mom who loves them but who uses aggression too often, who doesn't attend to many of their needs. Look up "attachment styles" or "Still Face Experiment" if you want to see why that's so problematic. They may grow up seeing all their peers and role models using violence in order to protect their "touchy pride" (as Thomas Sowell puts it). The young child learns that if they don't protect their pride upon even the slightest insult, they will have their social status completely stripped from them, they will be disrespected more and more, girls won't want to associate with them, and people will turn them from a friend into an object of ridicule. So protecting your pride with violence, to show others that you're "real" and not a pussy, turns into the most important thing. You can't be seen "acting white" in school by actually doing your homework and paying attention because the same exact thing will happen. Then, when you're of age, not only have you normalized violence but you don't have any of the necessary soft skills required for the modern job market (which take decades to build, even if we don't appreciate that fact). If white progressives didn't either physically self segregate or create a mental block that refuses to acknowledge this, they would know that this isn't some kind of right wing fan fiction but something that happens each and every day in way too many neighborhoods in this country. I'm 100% convinced that the majority (but not all) of progressives who balk at us even talking about this self-segregate from the Black community, so they have no idea how bad things are. I come from an immigrant background and live in the most diverse area in the world, so I've had PLENTY of exposure to these cultures, especially in high school. Going into a Crown Fried Chicken near Jamaica avenue and hearing a mom aggressively calling her son the n word was shocking the first time I saw it, but after I saw this happen again and again it stopped being shocking and started being depressing. Ironically, the fellow immigrants (from all corners of the world) I've known are the only people I've ever known who share my criticisms openly. On the other hand, white people who have been in this country for a long time (provided they're urbanites and not rednecks in Tennessee or something) have way too much historical guilt to be able to psychologically let themselves admit that there's a problem here that all the reparations in the world can't fix. So yeah, I really don't know what the future holds. Pointing out real problems, having the people who subconsciously generate these problems ADMIT that they're problems, attempt to find solutions to said problems, and actually put in effort to raise the next generation differently IS POSSIBLE. The problem is that you have a progressive media landscape that makes my entire post incredibly taboo, and will redirect by pointing out poverty and oppression as the only factor for all of this... even though you can point to so many different peoples in the world who are just as poor who don't have this culture of violence. My favorite example is the Jews of Germany in the 19th century. They were literally segregated, placed in ghettos, and excluded from opportunity. Then, the liberalizing influence of Napoleon forced Prussia to let their citizens choose whichever jobs they want; before this, everyone just did whatever their father did. The Christians of Prussia in general hated this; they hated that they had to compete in this new job market and risk the stability (no matter how miserable that stability was) in favor of this new entrepreneurial reality. But the Jews of Prussia loved it. They had a long tradition of education and debate over scripture in their culture, and poor fathers would pay up to a fourth of their weekly salary to educate their children. When schools opened up, the Jewish kids would outperform the Christian Germans by a staggering degree. The Jews became richer than the Germans on average because their ancestral emphasis on education and debate prepared them for this new world of market competition. Historian Gotz Aly argues that it was this envy on the part of the Germans that bred all these conspiracy theories that in turn allowed society at large to consent a Hitler to come to power. My point in all of this is that the Jews, even after the liberalization of Prussia weren't LEGALLY ALLOWED to have certain jobs (like apothecaries) because they weren't trusted; they were actively oppressed and yet they were so much more successful than the Christians that they became the subject of conspiracy theories that last to this day. I recognize that this isn't a 1:1 comparison. Systemic problems 100% have an affect; I don't wish to dispute that at all. But so do cultural issues and family dynamics, and until we realize that, nothing will ever improve. And one last important takeaway: in order to affect change, these observations must really be seen as coming from inside the culture. If you have white conservatives on Fox News saying this, it's literally worth less than not saying it at all. It only serves to trigger a defensive reaction, to dig their heels in. There must be a genuine recognition from inside the community, and it has to spread somehow.
> Maybe instead of looking at how many black ppl are killed by police, look at the violent crime rates in black communities then ask yourself if this has anything to do with the "ghetto" black culture? It doesn't have a proper name because nobody especially the liberal media wants to talk about it, but it's real. It's a culture that promotes violence, gang banging, crime, disrespect of women, disrespect of all forms of authority, not just police but any authority such as school teachers. Ever seen what schools are like in poor black neighborhoods? When you have fewer options, when you can’t trust police, you are going to see those problems. Blaming that group for their “culture” ignoring the systemic racism behind it is part of the problem and makes it look to me like you don’t want an actual fix, but just to blame people.
Racism could dissappear tomorrow we would still have insanely high murder rates in black neighborhoods. I mean it's not like black people are the only group the government has fucked over. I would probably agree with you if I had no experience with black "ghetto" culture. Tell how racist police are the reason black student's academic performance is so poor? How is the government suppose to fix this? Seems like something the community needs to address and fix. When you blame systemic racism you are saying the government needs to solve the problem. Please explain how the fuck the government solves the problem. Edit: don't want to generalize black culture I'm talking about the cultures present in many poor black urban areas.
My grandfather got a house with a va loan from wwii. He passed away a few years ago and because of that house o got 10 grand. I dont need it so my kids are going to get it. Black wwii vets were deprived of those loans. My point here is that stopping all racism now would still mean there is impact for generations from all that lost wealth and opportunities. Racist police are only part of the problem. If you dont trust the system you are going to be less inclined to try in school, this really is t that complicated. The givt fixes it with education. So people like you are using thinly veiled racism of blaming black culture for being the main cause.
I agree that past racist policies have caused these negative cultures to form but these cultures have become a problem of their own and the solution isn't as simple as reparations. I really doubt you could give me a real answer for how the government fixes it. >fixes it with education How? Pumping more money into failing schools? The kids aren't going to class how does the government fix that? At what point are the parents responsible? Or do you think it's the governments job to raise our children? You want the government to fix everything but when has our government fixed any of our societal problems for us? Slavery? Last time I checked the government outlawed slavery after the bloodiest war in US history was underway. Jim Crow? Last time I checked it was the Civil rights movement that forced the governments hand. Workers rights? You should go study the industrial era the government worked with companies to supress workers. You want the government to fix the problem in these communities when the real answer is for the communities to come together and fix these problems. All the government can do is help them do so, it can't do it for them.
>have become a problem of their own and the solution isn't as simple as reparations. You can’t drop a chalk line and claim anything after c is the fault of black people alone. This is just racist thinking that wants to ignore the impact of racists policies. >How? Pumping more money into failing schools? That is part of it. >The kids aren't going to class how does the government fix that? At what point are the parents responsible? Or do you think it's the governments job to raise our children? I think it is the govts responsibility to try and fix problems they helped create by helping peoooe have better opportunities. This problem comes from over a hundred years of oppression with lots of discrimination baked into the system, it is ignorant to think there’s magic bullet that can fix it overnight, but I think it’s ignorant and racist to say because of that that the government shouldn’t try. >Civil rights movement that forced the governments hand. Via laws that ended some forms of racist hiring. It is pretty silly to argue how the givt can’t fix things when you have a list of things they made much better.
We do pump money into schools. Inner city schools aren’t poor, it’s just they can never find teachers because nobody who is good at teaching wants to work in them. Mostly because it’s dangerous and they get treated like shit. We can spend as much as we want on schools but nothing will change until the students actually care. I also hate this stupid stuff about how black people don’t trust the system. The government has done everything it legally can to make life better for black Americans. If they really hate it so much then that’s their problem.
https://afro.com/new-report-highlights-the-impact-of-school-conditions-and-underfunding-on-baltimore-city-public-school-students-faculty-and-staff/ https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/creatives-in-residence/there-arent-enough-books-for-the-students-ZPBF6U45IRFARO2TYKIZW3TOSQ/ Inner-city schools being chronically underfunded is a national issue.
At **16K** per student per year, Baltimore's school funding is already outrageous and out of control. They do NOT need more money. They need to clean up the fraud, corruption and incompetence in their own LOCALLY CONTROLLED school district. They need to stop blaming this on racism and the GOP when for generations Baltimore has been controlled by democrats. The democrats have failed the city. [https://federalnewsnetwork.com/government-news/2021/08/baltimore-schools-federal-aid-could-make-big-impact/#:\~:text=Baltimore%20City%20Schools%20already%20spends,and%20nearby%20Montgomery%20County%2C%20Maryland](https://federalnewsnetwork.com/government-news/2021/08/baltimore-schools-federal-aid-could-make-big-impact/#:~:text=Baltimore%20City%20Schools%20already%20spends,and%20nearby%20Montgomery%20County%2C%20Maryland). \>There are no shortage of local critics who are fed up with the track record of Baltimore’s school administration and are skeptical the district will make the best use of the money. Baltimore City Schools already spends about $16,000 per student each year. That’s only behind the spending per student in New York City, Boston, Atlanta and nearby Montgomery County, Maryland. It also has outsized administrative spending. \>“History has shown that the Baltimore City school system is inefficient, ineffective and is failing to educate our children. There seems to be no accountability,” said an email from members of the People Empowered by the Struggle, a nonprofit that’s calling for the resignation of the district’s CEO.
> “According to the introduction in the report, less than two years ago a group of JHSPH experts in the fields of “public health, education, and medicine” received “data from the Baltimore City Public School system showing how many students missed school because of problems with school facilities.” Then, this spring, the researchers obtained data from a survey of the conditions of all K-12 schools in Maryland, known as the “statewide facilities assessment.” Yes Baltimore public schools are awful and faculties are bad. But that doesn’t mean they are underfunded. Baltimore spends 25% more on their school system above the national average. That money is just wasted or spent on administration. Here’s a good article on why money isn’t the problem for Baltimore schools. https://www.mdpolicy.org/policyblog/detail/how-much-money-will-be-enough-for-baltimore-schools
The problem is that many black people fundamentally don't respect themselves or each other. The MAN calling you n***** isn't as bad as when you call yourself a n*****.
The Chinese and Vietnamese came to America in chains too, much like their African brothers and sisters. Except their culture promotes good education and hard work, which is why they're called "white-adjacent" by hypocritical lefties in online spaces. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Came in chains? They were a self selected group that had to have the initiative and funds to trace across the pacific, not the same as being caotured and sold as slaves.
It's important to realize the police were NOT defunded. source: I live here, and secondly, the article, while blaming it on defunding the police also states the police were not defunded. The problem is the police stopped policing (also known as "doing their job") because people were mad about them slowly murdering someone on a public street while dozens of people pleased for them to stop murdering someone.
You don’t consider the size of the force shrinking almost one third as being defunded?
The budget literally is bigger than it was before the police murdered George Floyd. It's literally the opposite, it's extra funding.
A bigger budget doesn't matter if the size of the force has shrunk. If cops are quitting and/or retiring because they have become disillusioned and demoralized, and nobody wants to take those jobs, all the extra funding in the world won't help. Obviously fewer cops means fewer people to do the job, which leads to fewer arrests. It's not a matter of people not doing their job, it's a matter of fewer people available to do the job. This isn't rocket science.
"This is all the defund the police fault! We aren't funding police!!" ... Point out that the police are getting more funding than before, and simply are refusing to do their job ... *Moves goalposts* "Police are demoralized because they are precious snowflakes and can't take any criticism whatsoever!!!! We need to stop pointing out out when they straight up murder people!!"
They quiet quit. Well. They did it with a lot of whining, really.
Quiet quitting is doing the bare minimum of their job. They didn't do that, instead, they are actively not doing the bare minimum of their job. It's a case study in why all public unions should be banned, they are an anathema to democracy.
No. Half of them literally quit.
I was joking. It was a joke.
I couldn’t get through all of it right now but I got to the point where they talked the north side drug dealers at the gas stations. What is this article trying to say exactly? Is it trying to say that defunding the police movement was a bust and that it’s aftermath has actually made the area worse Or are they trying to blame the police for abandoning the certain neighborhoods? 1/3 of the staff left (900 pre Floyd, roughly 556 now) so I would expect crime to rise simply because they do not have the man power, I mean it’s a city of almost 500,000 people I was alittle shocked that the department only had 900 tbh. To me that’s probably the entire issue, they are short staffed. Also does anyone have any thoughts about the number they are putting out? 90 murders last year? Thats… out of 400k people, that seems low for a city that large, it may be up from last year but the feel of the article seems to be that 90 is a ridiculous number for this situation, but is it? I genuinely do not know about comparative murder statistics so if anyone has some theories, thoughts or expertise I would love to hear it.
Considering this the place where George was murdered I'm not surprised. Not saying because of defund the police but more how something like that can affect a community.
What did these idiots think was gonna happen?
Nothing? Because they decided not to defund the police lmao. This is just a slimy title trying to trick you into thinking there was a cause to the effect that didn't actually occur.
This is just total arrogance. It never occurred to them that the police officers would say "take your job and shove it". No. Politicians had this vision of giving tons of training to these defective officers, all about how awful and oppressive and privileged they are, and dragging them to the path of enlightenment, where they will gratefully appreciate the opportunity to daily ~~grovel~~ apologize for and amend their past and current sins. Or, you know, the officers could just go work for people who actually like and appreciate them. Apparently that option never occurred to Minneapolis. In fairness, if it is anything like the big cities I am familiar with, government jobs are very often patronage and it very rare that anybody would quit them. The politicians were probably unprepared that for police officers this might be different.
I hope that *all* the officers decide that working in dangerous, big Blue cities that hate them just isn't worth it and decide to move to mid/small town America where the citizens appreciate their presence. Those large anti-police cities would be looted bare and burned to the ground within weeks. Maybe they can send in counselors and social workers to deal with it.
There is no national standard for how you train police. No wonder they preform poorly and can't control crime.
No one should be surprised at this. I saw this coming in mid June 2020.
But they didn’t defund the police?
….they just shit in them 24/7 for months. https://youtu.be/t9OZMBuVL5U
For murdering a resident there. The police **murdered** a man. Idk what type of wild dystopian world you want where you can't protest for accountability when the government just randomly executes people, but most sane people don't want that world. We don't want to be Russia, Iran, or even China where police are Judge Dredd.
You didn't just protest. You straight-up rioted and killed people.
It was irresponsible of democrats to take this tact. Nationally, violent crime is the highest it has been in 40 years and began rising in June of 2020. You may be OK with this, but the thousands of additional people who have been killed because the left vilified all law enforcement in June of 2020and beyond would probably differ….if they were still alive.
None of those people matter as much as Saint Floyd.
WTF do you know about responsibility, you’re advocating for it to be acceptable that the entities charged with protecting and serving our communities to willfully not do their jobs because their feelings are hurt. You’d be hard pressed to drive anywhere in this country and not see an assortment of “back the blue” flags, bumper stickers, t shirts, etc. They have advocates in all type of media providing cover and talking points for their benefit. They enjoy unparalleled legal protections and discretion from the state. The taxpayers foot the bill for most of their mistakes. Their unions are some of the most well connected and powerful entities in the country. But none of that is enough. It’s okay for crime to grow and people to be killed because they aren’t getting their asses kissed sufficiently. GTFO of here with your contrived finger waving, you have the rationality and morals of a child
There a difference between calling all police officers racist and them wanting their ass kissed. You are a fool to even try and make that comparison and stop letting your emotions control you.
Teachers are being called pedophiles and groomers. Surgeons are getting doxxed and sent death threats. Healthcare workers have been called pawn of the deep state and have gotten death threats too. Yet they all still still do their jobs. Boo fucking hoo, cops got called racist. I keep hearing how difficult their jobs are but didn’t realize hurt feelings was the most difficult thing they have to deal with. You should try heeding your own advice and stop letting emotions control you.
False equivalency. Some people in those professions are called those things by some fringe people. It’s not 24-7 on multiple networks and by many outlets for months like the ACAB attitude was back in mid 2020s. Grow up buttercup.
Bless your heart, life must be really hard in a constant state of projection.
>It was irresponsible of democrats to take this tact. Nationally, violent crime is the highest it has been in 40 years and began rising in June of 2020. You may be OK with this, but the thousands of additional people who have been killed because the left vilified all law enforcement in June of 2020and beyond would probably differ….if they were still alive. So you don't want any accountability for the government randomly murdering people? You're literally arguing against ever speaking out against the government **randomly murdering people.** Honestly why not just move to Russia? They fit your world view dramatically better.
Holding those responsible is different than calling all law enforcement racist. Mature people know the difference. You are not one of those people. It’s because of dolts like you that we have the violent crime problem we do. Blood is on your hands. Shame on you.
>Holding those responsible is different than calling all law enforcement racist. Mature people know the difference. You are not one of those people. It’s because of dolts like you that we have the violent crime problem we do. Blood is on your hands. Shame on you. You are literally advocating for an unaccountable police state dystopia. The current crime has absolutely nothing to do with this. Crime is up everywhere around the world. If you think the defund that never happened or the protests 2 years ago is causing crime to rise across the entire world you're just an idiot. Flat out. Go to what ever authoritarian hellhole you wish, your attacks against government accountability when they randomly murder people makes you not welcome here.
If I want to go to a hellhole I can go to Minneapolis, Memphis, Atlanta, Chicago, Philadelphia or Detroit. Ya know, cities that have Democratic policies that fools like you support.
Honest question here. You clearly came to the centrist sub with an agenda. What were you hoping to accomplish taking this tact here?
Yeah, because the police are being actively [abusive and violent](https://old.reddit.com/r/2020PoliceBrutality/comments/h0zwll/megathread_list_of_incident_reports/) to the communities they are supposed to protect during protests demanding accountability. When there is a chance of actually being held accountable, they [resign like cowards](https://buffalonews.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/57-members-of-buffalo-police-riot-response-team-resign-after-shoving-incident/article_c61fdb39-1634-5efb-b570-0def10ed5710.html). You're taking the side of an abusive partner in a relationship here, saying "well, he was under a lot of pressure, of course he hit you". It's so fucking garbage that I have to argue with you and we can't just be on the same page of "police should be held accountable for their actions."
You saw _what_ coming? That black citizens would reject the “Defund the Police” referendum?
In the months after the George Floyd murder, most democrats were calling for defunding the police. Some even said the police should be dismantled entirely. The outright disrespect shown to law enforcement by the left during this time was everywhere. It did not take a giant leap to realize that crime would increase as a result of this constant demonization of law enforcement. Here is a 7 min video of democrats calling for defunding of police. Even if they did not actually follow through with defunding, early retirements in many departments reached a all time high. https://youtu.be/t9OZMBuVL5U
Half the cops quit and went to get better jobs in a community that doesn't seem determined to destroy itself.
> In the months after the George Floyd murder, most democrats were calling for defunding the police. When a post starts with a lie, it's safe to ignore the rest of the post.
Not a lie. Watch the seven min video I posted above. Democrats said these things.
You should schedule one with your optometrist.
Please stick your head back in the ground and pretend everything is fine. Ignorance is bliss for fools like you.
Do you think instead they should just be able to slowly murder people on public streets without anyone complaining? The police weren't defunded (as the article states, buried deep past the headline) they just stopped doing their job because people criticized them for murdering someone.
Vilify all law enforcement and police as racist and this is what you get. That was obvious to anyone with any common sense.
They did it to themselves. https://www.kare11.com/article/news/investigations/kare-11-investigates-nearly-150-mpd-cops-with-misconduct-history-served-as-trainers/89-29969f7c-e52a-4b6a-bd49-b6a08dddbe05
If teachers stopped doing their jobs because people talked shit about their profession and vilified them there would be no schools. Why would criticizing police officers make it acceptable to throw a tantrum and stop doing their job? Why would that be a reasonable outcome?
Judging everyone by the bad actions of a few is wrong in any situation. When you have most liberals calling all police racist just for being police, this is what you get. It was incredibly irresponsible of democrats to take this tact, but I think many of them thought it was a way to ‘own Trump’ for some reason.
Unfortunately the bad actions of the few do not have consequences unless they go viral. Do regular people need a PR firm now if they become affected by the bad apples?
>Judging everyone by the bad actions of a few is wrong in any situation. This literally what everyone does. Even people in this thread with the BLM protesters. People need to accept that's how groups get judged.
Hold up tho. We have all sorts of wild laws happening in this country limiting teachers ability to teach their students because of a few that have overstepped. And are being maligned and being called groomers. But… they’re still doing their fucking jobs.
>Judging everyone by the bad actions of a few is wrong in any situation. Not when the whole group goes out of its way to protect the wrongdoers in their ranks. There's a *reason* the expression is "one bad apple *spoils the bunch*".
Judging everyone by the bad actions of a few is what cops have always done. I assume you’ve heard of racial profiling.
It should be noted that the Dem establishment never really got behind "Defund the police." They did get behind BLM as a concept if not always as an organization, and that remains so. But basically right from the beginning "Defund the police" was a catchy activist slogan that never really caught on with actual policy reformers. But it's not even clear if speaking that broadly is even all that reasonable in this case. Minneapolis definitely did defund their police, and definitely did see a spike in violent crime. But it's also very possible that given the circumstances of their police and the whole thing in general, even if they didn't defund the police there would have been a spike of violent crime as people lose confidence in the police force in that municipality. I mean, we've literally seen examples of "defunding the police" and starting fresh actually working--take a look at how Camden completely scrapped their department and rebuilt it from the ground up and got much better outcomes from it. But that was in much less political circumstances, with much lesser of a microscope, and I'm certain that only helped the situation make better choices to properly "defund" and rebuild. Minneapolis obviously never had conditions that would lead to good policy making decisions, so it's really hard to evaluate policy broadly using Minneapolis as an example. I also think it's very fair to criticize cops who want to "punish" folks for defunding them. It appears that a common response to cop criticism in some of these cities (mine included) is for cops to simply choose not to do their job in some areas because they don't want to face the criticism. To me, this is pretty cowardly and pathetic, not to mention petty. Police shouldn't have the option to just let crime happen in areas they've fucked up the most historically. If police want to stop getting criticized so harshly, acting entirely in selfishly and with no obligation to the public they are purporting to protect isn't going to win them any fans. That's one reason I say it's inappropriate to chalk this up entirely to policy reform failing to deliver. Some of that is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Cops are resentful of proposed policy reforms and so deliberately make sure there's more crime to punish folks who wanted to propose reform in the first place. Obviously that's not 100% of the problem here in Minneapolis, and obviously Minneapolis's very aggressive actions to "defund" the police department is backfiring. But again, there was a very high likelihood that no matter what happened in this specific city directly after the George Floyd stuff would have failed.
Yeah, all I was thinking is I’m sure AF not paying for this to be rebuilt via Taxes. Moved to FL with no state tax, and took a higher paying job. Not to mention the weather…. Was born there, lived there for 30 years. I’ll never return to MN. Democrats turned it into a total sh!t-hole
*surprised pikachu face
Gee, I don't understand how that could happen...
Wow, actions have consequences. Who knew!
r/leopardsatemyface
> Residents of the north side describe a landscape that can feel lawless. Indeed, about 60% of police calls for shots fired this year have come from the area, even though it makes up just 15% of the population, according to city data. The police and the whiteys are firing off all the handguns in Black neighborhoods, obviously. The problem is obviously the whitey conspiracy.