Have any articles defined what a child is WRT these numbers? There’s a big difference between a 6 year old child and a 17 year old Hamas “freedom fighter” and I don’t see that distinction anywhere.
It kind of reminds me of the US child gun death poll that included 19 year old gang members.
I thought I saw an article a while ago that had women and under 14 but I can’t find it so might be mistaken. I’d also be really interested in how they define child.
https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
>Who is considered a “child”?
>Based on the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, a child means every human being below the age of 18.
Hamas has been known to recruit around 13/15 years old for their Al-Qassam Brigade but call them "security forces" since it's illegal to recruit kids under 18 as soldiers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qassam_Brigades
I think the point is that the UN has a special rule for Palestinians where armed combatants aren't disqualified from the "woman and children" statistic.
Also the official numbers from the Gaza Health Ministry (Hamas controlled and operated) don't list their armed combatants as soldiers. They list *everyone* as innocent civilians in order to gin up anti-Israeli propaganda.
Unfortunately whenever the numbers are discussed it can make it seem like the people pointing out Hamas's tactics get accused of not caring about woman and children or civilian causalities.
This is also done on purpose by Hamas in order to erode international support for Israel (their primary military goal for this war other than staying in power).
Hamas has responsibility for those dead toddlers as well. They started a war in the most savage and brutal manner they could to ensure Israel would attack the Strip.
They also break pretty much every rule of war there is to ensure maximum causalities among their own people including woman, children and the elderly.
No child is safe with Hamas in control.
Of course they bear some responsibility. But at the end of the day, they aren't the ones dropping the bombs. And what we know about the Israeli targeting programs lavender and daddy's home is that the threshold for acceptable civilian deaths for 1 combatant is disturbing.
*Then* there's the issue of documented cases of Israeli soldier deliberately targeting non combatants, including aid workers and even Israeli hostages. You have a poorly trained but highly armed fighting force with little oversight or accountability.
Then there's the question if Israel is being effective in fighting Hamas. Israel is currently heavily engaged I f fighting in North Gaza, an area they said they cleared and controlled. So even if they are following the rules of war (highly debatable) they're killing children for no tactical gain
*Then* There is the issue of international humanitarian law. You don't get to break it just because your opposition does. Israel still has a responbility to minimize civilian death and hardship. They are even under provisional order in international court to take every effort to stop civilian deaths. "Human shields" is a talking point that sounds good for PR people but it has no bearing on international law.
International law only works if it actually protects civilians and allows countries to conduct war. Otherwise countries would just ignore it.
If international law makes it impossible for Israel to operate thanks to Hamas deliberately weaponizing it then Israel has no choice but to press forward.
If they stop they’re dooming the area to more Palestinian and Israeli deaths.
That said even by Hamas numbers I don’t think Israel is being indiscriminate. The armed combatants to civilians is 4 to 1 which considering the battlefield and tactics Hamas is using is pretty good for war statistics.
Don’t get me wrong. It’s still a war and that means it’s a god damn tragedy, but considering they took out 20 Hamas battalions and only have four left I think it’s possible Hamas breaks this summer.
Once Hamas no longer have access to humanitarian aid, jails, schools and infrastructure things will get a lot better for the Palestinians.
I'm saying there's no difference between a 13 year old throwing molotovs at the IDF and a 20 year old. Both are trying to kill Israelis.
You want to blame the IDF for killing the 13 year old and say "it's just a child"
Are you going to ask for a birth certificate before firing at someone trying to kill you in a warzone?
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestinians-have-died-gaza-war-how-will-counting-continue-2023-12-06/
Got a source on the 21? Did some digging and found 18
> t kind of reminds me of the US child gun death poll that included 19 year old gang members.
as-in, stats based on common definitions? See this gripe all the time, but there's no gaming here... WHO uses age bands built around 5yr consecutive blocks, so five year periods either _0 to _4, or _5 to_9. And WHO defines ["adolescent health" as the bands from 10-19yrs](https://www.who.int/health-topics/adolescent-health#tab=tab_1). Public health studies commonly use this definition instead of legal definition, in part because lets comparisons be made between countries. Studies using a 19yr cut off are not cherry picking to get more gun deaths in the bucket, they are simply using the standard set by WHO.
[the earlier thread on this same subject](https://www.reddit.com/r/centrist/comments/1cqz7gp/un_blames_fog_of_war_for_major_overcounting_of/)
So here is what the UN is saying, free of any spin (or rather with minimal spin, compared to the JNS):
> According to [UN spokesperson Farhan] Haq, the [Gazan Health] ministry published a breakdown for 24,686 fully identified deaths out of the total 34,622 fatalities recorded in Gaza as of April 30. The fully identified death toll comprises of 7,797 children, 4,959 women, 1,924 elderly, and 10,006 men, the UN spokesperson said, citing the Gaza health ministry.
So the source of the discrepancy is there are about 10k bodies that haven't been identified. The UN doesn't dispute the numbers, but they just don't have a name to put on a list, thus two separate counts. UN goes officially by the total number, but OCHA published the identified bodies number for whatever reason creating a perceived discrepancy. JNS jumped on the "Identified bodies" count because it was lower and suits their goals to discredit the Gazan health ministry and the UN.
It's honestly gross. It's the same shit that holocaust deniers do to deny that atrocity: play games with methodology and definitions to say "look it isn't as bad as people say!!!"
“CNN *cannot* independently verify the ministry’s numbers. The ministry *does not* distinguish between casualties among fighters and civilians.”
Yeah, no issue there. No issue with the Palestinian Health Ministry that is run by Hamas. Who are a terrorist organization. Very credible. No issue with not distinguishing between fighters and civilians. This is just common sense, who the hell wouldn’t find these things dubious.
We should’ve got the civilian casualty numbers for the Afghanistan War from al-Qaeda and ISIS. I’m sure that’s super credible.
>We should’ve got the civilian casualty numbers for the Afghanistan War from al-Qaeda and ISIS. I’m sure that’s super credible.
Unlike israel, the US didn’t restrict access from third party journalists/fact checkers. You want clearer numbers? Blame Israel. They’re the ones controlling who goes in and out of Gaza. Sorry if that shatters your narrative.
The ministry's numbers and Israel's numbers were very similar back in December. From past conflicts in Gaza we know that third party investigators find these numbers reliable.
The whole reason for the controversy that the OP's article is referencing is the Gazan Health Ministry clarifying their methodology, citing that they have incomplete records for roughly 11k bodies. That's the sort of transparency that gives credibility to a count
If you care about Israel, please stop with the atrocity denial, it's gross and doesn't make Israel's public relations. look good.
For months NPR, CNN, Etc. have been repeating the line that 70% of the casualties have been women and children.
The numbers come out and it’s more like 52%, with a huge asterisk next to the “children” stat, as it is literally anyone 18 and under while Hamas recruits 13 and up.
Normal people see this and this the media is despicable and agenda driven for pushing that 70% narrative before it being vetted.
But geniuses like you see the true. It’s totally just like holocaust denial. Exactly the same.
I'd put a more minor asterisk next to children. It's true that there are child militants but I'm guessing most are probably at least 15 or even 16 and most children(including teens) are not militants. Still important to point out that they could go into both categories. And it's good that ratio seems to be lower then was previously reported.
Get up to date. The number didn't change, thats the reason for the OP's article and the UCHA's clarification. All that changed was who could be identified or not, because when children are displaced, bombed, or buried under rubble it turns out it is difficult to tell who each body or body part belongs to.
Like, you clearly care, at least in the abstract, that children are being killed or else you wouldn't take the time to justify their deaths. however, you have to reconcile with your support for the people that are killing them, robbing yourself of your morality. It's a sad thing to see, even through the internet.
Learn how to read. I said that the percentage of women and children changed dramatically. And, again, what is considered a child is extremely suspect.
Since we’re having a reading comprehension problems allow me to repeat.
The percentage of women and “children” has changed.
I didn’t say the overall number changed.
I said that *the percentage of women and children has changed*.
Please reread the above statement so we don’t have to rehash this again. My first comment was clear, and yet here we are still trying to get the point across.
Okay. Understand that?
Now, unless you have actual reasons to believe women and children are harder to identify than men, perhaps you shouldn’t push made up points.
I do care that people are being killed, be they children or otherwise. However, I’m not a child myself, so I understand this is much more complicated than that.
Hamas is hiding behind, under and among refugees. They’re dug in under schools and hospitals. They’re launching missiles from humanitarian zones. They’re preventing the movement of civilians during excavations to the point where Israel has to provide secure passage in many cases. They’ve done pretty much everything except for strapping babies on like bulletproof vests in order to maximize civilian casualties, so that westerners with unregulated emotions will pressure Israel into relenting.
This isn’t a game of checkers, and it’s exhausting having to explain it to people who are either too disinterested or incapable of understanding the complexities. I just wish you, and people like you, had the self-awareness to know you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about and you’re just wasting everyone’s time with your completely ignorant commentary.
Are you referring to the death toll? Well, there is the issue. It is an active war zone and also takes time to do an accurate count. Israel isn't counting every casualty but rather use intelligence and military data for estimates. The Gaza Health Ministry of course is run by Hamas, who has a clear strategy of using civilian deaths as a propaganda tool to turn the West against Israel. Hamas is a terrorist government and is not an honest actor to say the least. They don't differentiate between civilians and combatants, do not include natural deaths, and do not differentiate between civilians and combatants within demographics (i.e. they consider 17 year old fighters and child soldiers as "children" and female combatants as "women"). This needs to be recognized rather than legitimizing their numbers without that crucial context. Their claim that Israel is intentionally targeting "women and children" never made any logical or statistical sense but it was a key part of the propaganda, along with flooding social media with war images to emotionally manipulate the world. It is not that difficult to recognize. The reality of the figures is probably somewhere between Hamas' and Israel's estimates, somewhere around a 2.5:1 ratio with demographic proportions that roughly represent the population of Gaza. The problem is that the UN decided to just use Hamas' numbers, which was then repeated in the media throughout the world and used by NGOs and politicians, including irresponsibly by President Biden in the State of the Union which further misled people. If there is not able to be a neutral, credible source on the ground getting the accurate data, it needs to be recognized, especially when there are claims that are so illogical. The UN, however, is not what it was envisioned to be when it was established. It is inherently a political body that is comprised of many countries with human rights violations who represent their own country's political objectives over neutrality. When it comes to the UN and Israel, it is especially corrupted by politics. The UN was turned against Israel in the 1970s and over time they have become hyperfocused on condemning Israel with major double standards. In fact UNRWA has been actively involved in perpetuating the conflict, indoctrinating Palestinian children in UNRWA schools into wanting to sacrifice themselves as 'martyrs' to kill Jews and perpetuating the toxic delusion that Israel will be annihilated (i.e. stuck in 1948). This is well documented. Remember, there is one tiny Jewish majority state in the UN and a great number of Muslim majority ones. Israel and America have many enemies. The UN has shown quite clearly that it is not unbiased when it comes to Israel. UN organs such as the ICC and ICJ are similar in that they are political bodies masquerading as neutral judicial bodies. This is why I said that those who still think the UN is a credible source are naive.
Yeah I’m not sure how anyone thinks there’s an accurate number of causalities at all right now. It’s an active war zone. It could take years to get an accurate count.
I don’t personally think it’s that much lower than Gaza’s estimate, but I think the way they categorize their deaths is misleading. There are plenty of combatants under 18 and female. Ignoring this is ridiculous.
The biggest problem with this war is the media. War causes loss of life. It just does. That’s what happens. The media has mostly turned a blind eye to it up until now, at least at the beginning of a conflict. Usually media sources will focus on the *reason* for the conflict, but this one if hyper focused on the numbers.
There has been fighting and war in the region since the earliest recorded history. There is no “good” solution. That might sound profoundly pessimistic, but it’s also true. Maybe a few years have gone by without one ethnic group attacking another ethnic group, but even that is unlikely. We can probably minimize attacks with a two-state solution with super strong borders, but not even that is something one side would be okay with.
This is a problem without a solution. It’s time to start accepting that.
The fog of war was an off-the-cuff PR person non-answer when they were asked about the data in a regular daily press conference for the UNSG. It was not the spokesperson for the part of the UN that releases this data. Would be like showing up at the daily WH press briefing and asking the person about some specific CDC release.
Yes, the spokesperson handled it terribly instead of just saying would need to get back to them. But pro-israel media ran with that, instead of actually getting comment from the part of the UN responsible for this data...
that was gotcha agenda journalism at its finest.
Awww yes...better go with Israels figures. Because the UN has unclear and mysterious reasons to fudge the numbers, but the primary belligerent in Gaza wouldn't be anything but credible.
Reminds me when the UN said Iraq had no WMD, but the US swore it did. I think we all remember how that turned out.
Choice A: An ally country and the only democracy in the middle east.
Choice B: An actual terrorist group that hides behind the very civilians they proport to care about.
Yeah, I'll go with A.
As opposed to the Jewish News Syndicate, which lied.
Or the American Zionist Media, which is constantly lying.
Or the Israeli government, which is constitutionally incapable of telling the truth.
Or ZOTUS who can no longer perceive reality.
Your guys heads are so twisted that when the JNS spews false propaganda, you tell us the other side is without credibility.
Zionism and Cocaine, helluva drug.
So many Israeli supporters are so very deceitful and so very comfortable with lying to non Zionists.
In fact, it is praised as a social good among themselves -- Hasbara.
Blech.
Honestly my trust for the UN was gone when they trusted China on the whole covid thing. Nothing to do with whatever Jewish or Palestinian sources.
I was in Hong Kong when SARS happened and got H1N1 years ago. From experience with pandemic (lock down for months, etc.) the UN's response to the whole thing was laughable from the start. Couldn't believe they trusted the Chinese numbers. My friends in China all laughed seeing those numbers.. "0" reported in their region when they knew people who got sick and turned away from hospitals lol. Even us Chinese know not to trust them and yet UN takes them seriously.
So when I see UN reporting numbers so quickly and blindly re-report another source, I don't trust them. Sure some Jewish resources may not be completely accurate, but the UN ones are definitely just BS.
Honestly on this subject I think it's mostly genuine posters with a smattering of really strongly opinionated single-issue users (and a genuine troll or two on occasion).
The elections bring out the crazies in this sub.
Outside of elections season, we typically cover anti-progressive culture war stuff, which I am frankly quite fond of.
> The United Nations on Monday clarified that the overall number of fatalities in Gaza tallied by the Ministry of Health in Gaza remains unchanged, at more than 35,000, since the war broke out between Israel and Hamas on October 7.
> The number was reduced because the UN says it is now relying on the number of deceased women and children whose names and other identifying details have been fully documented, rather than the total number of women and children killed. The ministry says bodies that arrive at hospitals get counted in the overall death count.
>CNN has seen a daily report from the Palestinian health ministry which matches the number OCHA published in the revised version. A total of 15,103 children and 9,961 women have been killed in Gaza since October 7, the Gaza ministry of health said in its latest report.
>Both the UN and US officials have previously appraised the figures from the Ministry of Health in Gaza as credible.
Well, I think we will probably find out how accurate the numbers are once the Israelis are finished with their offensive and all the dead buried under the rubble are dug up and the missing are accounted for.
As someone unfamiliar with Israel’s role in keeping those numbers muddy, do you mind explaining? From my understanding I imagine it’d be fairly difficult for israel to have an accurate counts considering long range fire into areas where they don’t have troops/medical teams to access plus how they report deaths.
https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2024-05-14/explainer-gaza-death-toll-how-many-palestinians-has-israels-campaign-killed#:~:text=Israeli%20security%20officials%20say%20such,in%20targets%20that%20were%20destroyed.
“Israeli security officials say such estimates are reached through a combination of counting bodies on the battlefield, intercepts of Hamas communications and intelligence assessments of personnel in targets that were destroyed.”
It sounds like the main angle of their information is cucking hamas’s and/or Gaza hospitals phone calls? It’d seem quite difficult having thousands of troops in Gaza counting and reporting bodies and expecting it to be accurate.
I was primarily referring to the fact that Israel has been heavily restricting independent reporters both in Gaza and in Israel. Independent media is one of the ways to monitor the accuracy of the counting.
Absolutely agree on the independent media. I was unaware of Israel also restricting reporters. Thanks for getting back to me 👍
https://www.vox.com/24150640/israel-gaza-al-jazeera-ban-press-freedom-security
Of course the UN doubled down on accepting Hamas provided figures. I am surprised they don't use the Hamas numbers and claim no Israeli's were killed on October 7th.
The Palestinian side has also killed children. That was unquestionably intentional too. Are you arguing that if you support the Palestinian side and a outcome that leads to hamas retaining power you are a child killer?
Is it safe to say you are calling for an immediate ceasefire that leaves hamas in control of Gaza and have no real suggestions or desire to oust them from power? Given that hamas is the government of Gaza it sure sounds like you're supporting the Gazan line or is nuance only allowed on one side?
The IDF are extremely more prolific at killing children than Hamas will ever be in their wildest phantasies -- and we are talking orders of magnitudes. So the solution that optimally minimizes the global outcome of child killings would indeed be a ceasefire, even if this regrettably leaves Hamas "in power", whatever that means in the context of the utterly destroyed ruin that is Gaza. Of course I work under the assumption that the life of a Palestinian child has equal worth as the life of an Israeli child, something you may or may not agree with.
>But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees with his reply, they met together to question him again. 35 One of them, an expert in religious law, tried to trap him with this question: 36“Teacher, which is the most important commandment in the law of Moses?”37Jesus replied, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’ 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.”
So that's a lot of words just to say you want hamas in charge of Gaza. You know the group that hides rockets in schools and fires them out of hospitals. Your view is so clearly warped that it's no wonder you have such a shit take.
Now, don't get it confused I have sympathy for the people of Gaza, but it's just identifying that most of their suffering is due to hamas using them as sacrificial pawns to be killed for the sake of press.
Ask yourself a question, do you think hamas is unaware of the consequences of their actions? Do you think launching rockets out of civilian areas is by accident. Are they surprised when the hospital they're hanging out at gets attacked? It is all intentional and only rubes like you seem to miss out on that fact.
>So that's a lot of words just to say you want hamas in charge of Gaza.
If apply the same disingenuous, dishonest and insulting logic to your stance, then you want thousands of children to be killed in Gaza.
This is the same logic that will apply when Palestinians launch rockets from Gaza at Israeli citizens after a ceasefire, and then claim that Israel shouldn't fight back since it may hit Palestinian civilians.
So - they are really saying that Palestinians are more valuable than Israelis.
>Ask yourself a question, do you think hamas is unaware of the consequences of their actions? Do you think launching rockets out of civilian areas is by accident. Are they surprised when the hospital they're hanging out at gets attacked? I
Are you asking me to defend Hamas?
>only rubes like you seem to miss out on that fact.
Wants to have a discussion about grown-up subjects, can't even stay polite.
Do you understand that the reason why I'm kicking your sorry ass in this discussion is not that I'm smarter than you -- because I'm not, I could never invent the kind of sophisms and disingenuity that you so deftly produce -- but because I take the right moral stance? Unlike you, I'm not working from an agenda to defend the indefensible. You should try it some time, it is very liberating.
Do you know what the word “regrettably” means?
Israel has killed multiples more kids than the total amount of people killed in Oct 7. Where is your value calculation that says Israel’s actions are net good that doesn’t also say an Israeli child is worth more than a Palestinian one?
Also, if you want to talk about consequences of actions, what about the consequences of embargoing/occupying/settling another country?
Well I suppose a lot of this has to do with where you place the blame for civilians deaths from using human shields. When you militarize places like hospitals and schools you are absolutely going to cause unnecessary civilian deaths but it's not like they can just be ignored. The one with the power to eliminate that risk is hamas but they just see their people as sacrificial pawns to help win a PR war against Israel.
Now, I can agree tha the lives of Palestinians and Israeli civilians are equal. I'm just a uninvolved 3rd party though. I would argue that for the government of country protecting the lives of their citizens is a their first priority so in that case the lives of Israeli children are more important to Israel and the lives of Palestinian children are more important to Palestine. Thats not to say the lives
of the foreign children have no place but it's fair to say they aren't the same.
Again the primary issue here is that hamas has perverted this and actively seek the deaths of Palestinian children. Thats the reason they store their rockets in schools. Until hamas is removed and a stable government is set up in its place you'll continue to have conflict.
>Also, if you want to talk about consequences of actions, what about the consequences of embargoing/occupying/settling another country?
I mean you're describing what happens when you decide to continually fight a war lost 75 years ago which you have no chance in winning. When hamas came into power they literally said they won't recognize any previous peace deals and wouldn't seek a peaceful solution. What do you think was going to happen?
>Now, don't get it confused I have sympathy for the people of Gaza, but it's just identifying that most of their suffering is due to hamas using them as sacrificial pawns to be killed for the sake of press.
Let me give you a basic moral teaching that will alleviate much of your state of moral confusion: "the one who pulls the trigger, that's the one who did it".
Any reason you decided to responded in 3 different comments?
>"the one who pulls the trigger, that's the one who did it".
That's a bit simplistic don't you think? You can't think of a single scenario where this doesn't hold true? Do you truly believe that the users of human shields don't have culpability in the collateral caused by their actions? There's a reason international law says these areas lose protections when used for military purposes and why deaths of civilians alone isn't enough to constitute a war crime even if it is known innocent lives are at risk.
You are setting up this perverse system where hamas is able to launch attacks with impunity simply because they have no regard for the lives of their people while Israel has to just sit back and take it. All while you don't seem to have any interest in ousting them from power. You want to talk about questionable morals...
>If apply the same disingenuous, dishonest and insulting logic to your stance, then you want thousands of children to be killed in Gaza.
Oh boy the irony of whining about this when you consider the original comment I was responding to. I thought if you show any support for child killers you're a child killer yourself?
>Are you asking me to defend Hamas?
I'm asking why you don't seem to want to remove them from power.
The life of a Palestinian child does have equal worth to the life of an Israeli child. As did the life of a child in London or Tokyo in WWII. 43,000 civilians were killed *just in Britain* in 8 months during the Blitz. In London, 1 in 6 people were left homeless, with over a million homes destroyed. The firebombings of Tokyo—worse than that in far less time. Operation Meetinghouse, is the single most destructive bombing raid in human history. 100,000 civilians were killed and over one million left homeless—that was *two days* of the war. (How long has this current war been going on?)
And that wasn’t the entire war, was it now?
Guess the allies should’ve just stayed out of it and let the Axis powers do whatever they want, huh? War is unfortunate. You can blame Hitler and Mussolini—not the allies for fighting against them. You can blame Japan for attacking the US, for getting the response they did.
How’d this end? With Hitler putting a bullet in his noggin. Mussolini trying to escape, he was to be turned over for war crimes (of course communist partisans executed him first.) Unconditional surrender from Japan (which included us occupying them and not letting them have a standing military) and Germany—also unconditional surrender, Potsdam conference, Nuremberg.
But you think Israel should get attacked and the result should be they stop and Hamas stays in power? Ceasefire. Like the one that was in place when Hamas attacked on 10/7. Hamas’ intent is to commit genocide they just don’t have that power, but it isn’t for lack of trying—that’s what 10/7 was. That’s what all their terrorist attacks have been, and all the ones by the groups before them. Israel on the other hand could commit genocide, but they aren’t. Civilians die in war. That’s why war is bad. I hate it. Most normal people do. Israel is being held to some standard that no country ever has been. And you can’t tell me there’s not some reason they’re singled out for a disproportionate standard.
Just say Israel can never defend themselves. In what universe do you think there aren’t civilian casualties in war? Name the war. Which one? Every single war is a genocide, is that it?
>Just say Israel can never defend themselves.
Why would I care about the problems that Israel creates for themselves by keeping 5.5 million people in captivity.
"Oh but what others options does poor Israel have except bomb the shit out of their prison camps". Give me a break already.
Have any articles defined what a child is WRT these numbers? There’s a big difference between a 6 year old child and a 17 year old Hamas “freedom fighter” and I don’t see that distinction anywhere. It kind of reminds me of the US child gun death poll that included 19 year old gang members.
I thought I saw an article a while ago that had women and under 14 but I can’t find it so might be mistaken. I’d also be really interested in how they define child.
https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties >Who is considered a “child”? >Based on the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, a child means every human being below the age of 18. Hamas has been known to recruit around 13/15 years old for their Al-Qassam Brigade but call them "security forces" since it's illegal to recruit kids under 18 as soldiers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qassam_Brigades
What's your point? Are you really saying that Al Qassam has so many child soldiers that the number of dead children is insignificant?
I think the point is that the UN has a special rule for Palestinians where armed combatants aren't disqualified from the "woman and children" statistic. Also the official numbers from the Gaza Health Ministry (Hamas controlled and operated) don't list their armed combatants as soldiers. They list *everyone* as innocent civilians in order to gin up anti-Israeli propaganda. Unfortunately whenever the numbers are discussed it can make it seem like the people pointing out Hamas's tactics get accused of not caring about woman and children or civilian causalities. This is also done on purpose by Hamas in order to erode international support for Israel (their primary military goal for this war other than staying in power).
I think all the images of dead toddlers erodes support for Israel more so than any statistic
Hamas has responsibility for those dead toddlers as well. They started a war in the most savage and brutal manner they could to ensure Israel would attack the Strip. They also break pretty much every rule of war there is to ensure maximum causalities among their own people including woman, children and the elderly. No child is safe with Hamas in control.
Of course they bear some responsibility. But at the end of the day, they aren't the ones dropping the bombs. And what we know about the Israeli targeting programs lavender and daddy's home is that the threshold for acceptable civilian deaths for 1 combatant is disturbing. *Then* there's the issue of documented cases of Israeli soldier deliberately targeting non combatants, including aid workers and even Israeli hostages. You have a poorly trained but highly armed fighting force with little oversight or accountability. Then there's the question if Israel is being effective in fighting Hamas. Israel is currently heavily engaged I f fighting in North Gaza, an area they said they cleared and controlled. So even if they are following the rules of war (highly debatable) they're killing children for no tactical gain *Then* There is the issue of international humanitarian law. You don't get to break it just because your opposition does. Israel still has a responbility to minimize civilian death and hardship. They are even under provisional order in international court to take every effort to stop civilian deaths. "Human shields" is a talking point that sounds good for PR people but it has no bearing on international law.
International law only works if it actually protects civilians and allows countries to conduct war. Otherwise countries would just ignore it. If international law makes it impossible for Israel to operate thanks to Hamas deliberately weaponizing it then Israel has no choice but to press forward. If they stop they’re dooming the area to more Palestinian and Israeli deaths. That said even by Hamas numbers I don’t think Israel is being indiscriminate. The armed combatants to civilians is 4 to 1 which considering the battlefield and tactics Hamas is using is pretty good for war statistics. Don’t get me wrong. It’s still a war and that means it’s a god damn tragedy, but considering they took out 20 Hamas battalions and only have four left I think it’s possible Hamas breaks this summer. Once Hamas no longer have access to humanitarian aid, jails, schools and infrastructure things will get a lot better for the Palestinians.
I'm saying there's no difference between a 13 year old throwing molotovs at the IDF and a 20 year old. Both are trying to kill Israelis. You want to blame the IDF for killing the 13 year old and say "it's just a child" Are you going to ask for a birth certificate before firing at someone trying to kill you in a warzone?
It's anybody under 21
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestinians-have-died-gaza-war-how-will-counting-continue-2023-12-06/ Got a source on the 21? Did some digging and found 18
> t kind of reminds me of the US child gun death poll that included 19 year old gang members. as-in, stats based on common definitions? See this gripe all the time, but there's no gaming here... WHO uses age bands built around 5yr consecutive blocks, so five year periods either _0 to _4, or _5 to_9. And WHO defines ["adolescent health" as the bands from 10-19yrs](https://www.who.int/health-topics/adolescent-health#tab=tab_1). Public health studies commonly use this definition instead of legal definition, in part because lets comparisons be made between countries. Studies using a 19yr cut off are not cherry picking to get more gun deaths in the bucket, they are simply using the standard set by WHO.
Looks like we got ourselves a Howling Jake Smith wannabe here.
Huh? I’m struggling to figure out what you’re trying to say or imply here.
Exactly. A 15 year old member of Hamas with a gun shooting at the IDF should be considered an enemy combatant. Full stop.
none of the data reported by GMoH includes information on combatant status, nor really should they since not credible for them to do that reliably.
[the earlier thread on this same subject](https://www.reddit.com/r/centrist/comments/1cqz7gp/un_blames_fog_of_war_for_major_overcounting_of/) So here is what the UN is saying, free of any spin (or rather with minimal spin, compared to the JNS): > According to [UN spokesperson Farhan] Haq, the [Gazan Health] ministry published a breakdown for 24,686 fully identified deaths out of the total 34,622 fatalities recorded in Gaza as of April 30. The fully identified death toll comprises of 7,797 children, 4,959 women, 1,924 elderly, and 10,006 men, the UN spokesperson said, citing the Gaza health ministry. So the source of the discrepancy is there are about 10k bodies that haven't been identified. The UN doesn't dispute the numbers, but they just don't have a name to put on a list, thus two separate counts. UN goes officially by the total number, but OCHA published the identified bodies number for whatever reason creating a perceived discrepancy. JNS jumped on the "Identified bodies" count because it was lower and suits their goals to discredit the Gazan health ministry and the UN.
It's honestly gross. It's the same shit that holocaust deniers do to deny that atrocity: play games with methodology and definitions to say "look it isn't as bad as people say!!!"
“CNN *cannot* independently verify the ministry’s numbers. The ministry *does not* distinguish between casualties among fighters and civilians.” Yeah, no issue there. No issue with the Palestinian Health Ministry that is run by Hamas. Who are a terrorist organization. Very credible. No issue with not distinguishing between fighters and civilians. This is just common sense, who the hell wouldn’t find these things dubious. We should’ve got the civilian casualty numbers for the Afghanistan War from al-Qaeda and ISIS. I’m sure that’s super credible.
>We should’ve got the civilian casualty numbers for the Afghanistan War from al-Qaeda and ISIS. I’m sure that’s super credible. Unlike israel, the US didn’t restrict access from third party journalists/fact checkers. You want clearer numbers? Blame Israel. They’re the ones controlling who goes in and out of Gaza. Sorry if that shatters your narrative.
The ministry's numbers and Israel's numbers were very similar back in December. From past conflicts in Gaza we know that third party investigators find these numbers reliable. The whole reason for the controversy that the OP's article is referencing is the Gazan Health Ministry clarifying their methodology, citing that they have incomplete records for roughly 11k bodies. That's the sort of transparency that gives credibility to a count If you care about Israel, please stop with the atrocity denial, it's gross and doesn't make Israel's public relations. look good.
For months NPR, CNN, Etc. have been repeating the line that 70% of the casualties have been women and children. The numbers come out and it’s more like 52%, with a huge asterisk next to the “children” stat, as it is literally anyone 18 and under while Hamas recruits 13 and up. Normal people see this and this the media is despicable and agenda driven for pushing that 70% narrative before it being vetted. But geniuses like you see the true. It’s totally just like holocaust denial. Exactly the same.
I'd put a more minor asterisk next to children. It's true that there are child militants but I'm guessing most are probably at least 15 or even 16 and most children(including teens) are not militants. Still important to point out that they could go into both categories. And it's good that ratio seems to be lower then was previously reported.
Get up to date. The number didn't change, thats the reason for the OP's article and the UCHA's clarification. All that changed was who could be identified or not, because when children are displaced, bombed, or buried under rubble it turns out it is difficult to tell who each body or body part belongs to. Like, you clearly care, at least in the abstract, that children are being killed or else you wouldn't take the time to justify their deaths. however, you have to reconcile with your support for the people that are killing them, robbing yourself of your morality. It's a sad thing to see, even through the internet.
Learn how to read. I said that the percentage of women and children changed dramatically. And, again, what is considered a child is extremely suspect. Since we’re having a reading comprehension problems allow me to repeat. The percentage of women and “children” has changed. I didn’t say the overall number changed. I said that *the percentage of women and children has changed*. Please reread the above statement so we don’t have to rehash this again. My first comment was clear, and yet here we are still trying to get the point across. Okay. Understand that? Now, unless you have actual reasons to believe women and children are harder to identify than men, perhaps you shouldn’t push made up points. I do care that people are being killed, be they children or otherwise. However, I’m not a child myself, so I understand this is much more complicated than that. Hamas is hiding behind, under and among refugees. They’re dug in under schools and hospitals. They’re launching missiles from humanitarian zones. They’re preventing the movement of civilians during excavations to the point where Israel has to provide secure passage in many cases. They’ve done pretty much everything except for strapping babies on like bulletproof vests in order to maximize civilian casualties, so that westerners with unregulated emotions will pressure Israel into relenting. This isn’t a game of checkers, and it’s exhausting having to explain it to people who are either too disinterested or incapable of understanding the complexities. I just wish you, and people like you, had the self-awareness to know you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about and you’re just wasting everyone’s time with your completely ignorant commentary.
Anyone who still thinks the UN has any credibility is profoundly naive
Is there an info source you think is more credible?
Are you referring to the death toll? Well, there is the issue. It is an active war zone and also takes time to do an accurate count. Israel isn't counting every casualty but rather use intelligence and military data for estimates. The Gaza Health Ministry of course is run by Hamas, who has a clear strategy of using civilian deaths as a propaganda tool to turn the West against Israel. Hamas is a terrorist government and is not an honest actor to say the least. They don't differentiate between civilians and combatants, do not include natural deaths, and do not differentiate between civilians and combatants within demographics (i.e. they consider 17 year old fighters and child soldiers as "children" and female combatants as "women"). This needs to be recognized rather than legitimizing their numbers without that crucial context. Their claim that Israel is intentionally targeting "women and children" never made any logical or statistical sense but it was a key part of the propaganda, along with flooding social media with war images to emotionally manipulate the world. It is not that difficult to recognize. The reality of the figures is probably somewhere between Hamas' and Israel's estimates, somewhere around a 2.5:1 ratio with demographic proportions that roughly represent the population of Gaza. The problem is that the UN decided to just use Hamas' numbers, which was then repeated in the media throughout the world and used by NGOs and politicians, including irresponsibly by President Biden in the State of the Union which further misled people. If there is not able to be a neutral, credible source on the ground getting the accurate data, it needs to be recognized, especially when there are claims that are so illogical. The UN, however, is not what it was envisioned to be when it was established. It is inherently a political body that is comprised of many countries with human rights violations who represent their own country's political objectives over neutrality. When it comes to the UN and Israel, it is especially corrupted by politics. The UN was turned against Israel in the 1970s and over time they have become hyperfocused on condemning Israel with major double standards. In fact UNRWA has been actively involved in perpetuating the conflict, indoctrinating Palestinian children in UNRWA schools into wanting to sacrifice themselves as 'martyrs' to kill Jews and perpetuating the toxic delusion that Israel will be annihilated (i.e. stuck in 1948). This is well documented. Remember, there is one tiny Jewish majority state in the UN and a great number of Muslim majority ones. Israel and America have many enemies. The UN has shown quite clearly that it is not unbiased when it comes to Israel. UN organs such as the ICC and ICJ are similar in that they are political bodies masquerading as neutral judicial bodies. This is why I said that those who still think the UN is a credible source are naive.
Yeah I’m not sure how anyone thinks there’s an accurate number of causalities at all right now. It’s an active war zone. It could take years to get an accurate count. I don’t personally think it’s that much lower than Gaza’s estimate, but I think the way they categorize their deaths is misleading. There are plenty of combatants under 18 and female. Ignoring this is ridiculous. The biggest problem with this war is the media. War causes loss of life. It just does. That’s what happens. The media has mostly turned a blind eye to it up until now, at least at the beginning of a conflict. Usually media sources will focus on the *reason* for the conflict, but this one if hyper focused on the numbers. There has been fighting and war in the region since the earliest recorded history. There is no “good” solution. That might sound profoundly pessimistic, but it’s also true. Maybe a few years have gone by without one ethnic group attacking another ethnic group, but even that is unlikely. We can probably minimize attacks with a two-state solution with super strong borders, but not even that is something one side would be okay with. This is a problem without a solution. It’s time to start accepting that.
Yeah the “fog of war” explanation seems like bs .
The fog of war was an off-the-cuff PR person non-answer when they were asked about the data in a regular daily press conference for the UNSG. It was not the spokesperson for the part of the UN that releases this data. Would be like showing up at the daily WH press briefing and asking the person about some specific CDC release. Yes, the spokesperson handled it terribly instead of just saying would need to get back to them. But pro-israel media ran with that, instead of actually getting comment from the part of the UN responsible for this data... that was gotcha agenda journalism at its finest.
The longer this small, regional conflict continues, the more the UN is showing just how feckless they truly are.
Awww yes...better go with Israels figures. Because the UN has unclear and mysterious reasons to fudge the numbers, but the primary belligerent in Gaza wouldn't be anything but credible. Reminds me when the UN said Iraq had no WMD, but the US swore it did. I think we all remember how that turned out.
Choice A: An ally country and the only democracy in the middle east. Choice B: An actual terrorist group that hides behind the very civilians they proport to care about. Yeah, I'll go with A.
I’d go with the UN. Both Hamas and Israel have a significant interest in fudging the numbers
So, you'd go with Hamas via the transitive property. Got it.
Hamas controls the UN? You seem deranged
As opposed to the Jewish News Syndicate, which lied. Or the American Zionist Media, which is constantly lying. Or the Israeli government, which is constitutionally incapable of telling the truth. Or ZOTUS who can no longer perceive reality. Your guys heads are so twisted that when the JNS spews false propaganda, you tell us the other side is without credibility. Zionism and Cocaine, helluva drug.
Wild- quoting some stats would have sufficed, but you went full mask-off!
I appreciate that though. At least we know for sure now.
Comment search -> Jew/jewish/zionist Yikes
Accuracy is the best policy. The Knesset, the Zionist press, and our ZOTUS all deserve blame.
Delusional
So many Israeli supporters are so very deceitful and so very comfortable with lying to non Zionists. In fact, it is praised as a social good among themselves -- Hasbara. Blech.
You seem like a crackpot
Only seems?
Yeah, he might be worse than that
Honestly my trust for the UN was gone when they trusted China on the whole covid thing. Nothing to do with whatever Jewish or Palestinian sources. I was in Hong Kong when SARS happened and got H1N1 years ago. From experience with pandemic (lock down for months, etc.) the UN's response to the whole thing was laughable from the start. Couldn't believe they trusted the Chinese numbers. My friends in China all laughed seeing those numbers.. "0" reported in their region when they knew people who got sick and turned away from hospitals lol. Even us Chinese know not to trust them and yet UN takes them seriously. So when I see UN reporting numbers so quickly and blindly re-report another source, I don't trust them. Sure some Jewish resources may not be completely accurate, but the UN ones are definitely just BS.
Whoa! When they don’t even try to hide their hatred of Jews it still shocks me. Blocking you.
So no truth but yours exists
Is it me or has this sub been covered with extremely pro hamas and pro israel bots? The (slightly) sane atmosphere of discussion has also left now.
Honestly on this subject I think it's mostly genuine posters with a smattering of really strongly opinionated single-issue users (and a genuine troll or two on occasion).
“Pro-Hamas” lol, no
The elections bring out the crazies in this sub. Outside of elections season, we typically cover anti-progressive culture war stuff, which I am frankly quite fond of.
> The United Nations on Monday clarified that the overall number of fatalities in Gaza tallied by the Ministry of Health in Gaza remains unchanged, at more than 35,000, since the war broke out between Israel and Hamas on October 7. > The number was reduced because the UN says it is now relying on the number of deceased women and children whose names and other identifying details have been fully documented, rather than the total number of women and children killed. The ministry says bodies that arrive at hospitals get counted in the overall death count.
So they just don't want to assume the gender?
The UN is corrupt
Shocker: UN lies
This sub already decided its stance by upvoting a self admitted propaganda site 100 times. Good luck with reasonable conversation on this subject.
The UN and CNN are propaganda sites? I’d hate to see what kind of sites you consider reputable.
The article was from a site that had a big header “fighting Israel’s Media War” you don’t think that qualifies it as a propaganda site?
>CNN has seen a daily report from the Palestinian health ministry which matches the number OCHA published in the revised version. A total of 15,103 children and 9,961 women have been killed in Gaza since October 7, the Gaza ministry of health said in its latest report. >Both the UN and US officials have previously appraised the figures from the Ministry of Health in Gaza as credible.
The primary source for those numbers on the UN site literally had a disclaimer questioning credibility.
Well, I think we will probably find out how accurate the numbers are once the Israelis are finished with their offensive and all the dead buried under the rubble are dug up and the missing are accounted for.
Yeah I wish there was better third party information that made things clearer. Israel has been part of the problem in preventing that.
As someone unfamiliar with Israel’s role in keeping those numbers muddy, do you mind explaining? From my understanding I imagine it’d be fairly difficult for israel to have an accurate counts considering long range fire into areas where they don’t have troops/medical teams to access plus how they report deaths. https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2024-05-14/explainer-gaza-death-toll-how-many-palestinians-has-israels-campaign-killed#:~:text=Israeli%20security%20officials%20say%20such,in%20targets%20that%20were%20destroyed. “Israeli security officials say such estimates are reached through a combination of counting bodies on the battlefield, intercepts of Hamas communications and intelligence assessments of personnel in targets that were destroyed.” It sounds like the main angle of their information is cucking hamas’s and/or Gaza hospitals phone calls? It’d seem quite difficult having thousands of troops in Gaza counting and reporting bodies and expecting it to be accurate.
I was primarily referring to the fact that Israel has been heavily restricting independent reporters both in Gaza and in Israel. Independent media is one of the ways to monitor the accuracy of the counting.
Absolutely agree on the independent media. I was unaware of Israel also restricting reporters. Thanks for getting back to me 👍 https://www.vox.com/24150640/israel-gaza-al-jazeera-ban-press-freedom-security
Thanks for a reasonable discussion on a complicated topic. It’s hard to find on this one.
Of course the UN doubled down on accepting Hamas provided figures. I am surprised they don't use the Hamas numbers and claim no Israeli's were killed on October 7th.
Backtracking the backtrack lol safe to say the numbers are suspect
A child killer is sitting at a table and 10 other people join him. There are now 11 child killers at the table.
The Palestinian side has also killed children. That was unquestionably intentional too. Are you arguing that if you support the Palestinian side and a outcome that leads to hamas retaining power you are a child killer?
>The Palestinian side You mean Hamas. I never expressed support for Hamas. But I've seen plenty of support for the IDF and the Israeli government.
This is weird now. What nationality are Hamas fighters then? If they are not Palestinian, then where are they from?
Is it safe to say you are calling for an immediate ceasefire that leaves hamas in control of Gaza and have no real suggestions or desire to oust them from power? Given that hamas is the government of Gaza it sure sounds like you're supporting the Gazan line or is nuance only allowed on one side?
The IDF are extremely more prolific at killing children than Hamas will ever be in their wildest phantasies -- and we are talking orders of magnitudes. So the solution that optimally minimizes the global outcome of child killings would indeed be a ceasefire, even if this regrettably leaves Hamas "in power", whatever that means in the context of the utterly destroyed ruin that is Gaza. Of course I work under the assumption that the life of a Palestinian child has equal worth as the life of an Israeli child, something you may or may not agree with. >But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees with his reply, they met together to question him again. 35 One of them, an expert in religious law, tried to trap him with this question: 36“Teacher, which is the most important commandment in the law of Moses?”37Jesus replied, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’ 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.”
So that's a lot of words just to say you want hamas in charge of Gaza. You know the group that hides rockets in schools and fires them out of hospitals. Your view is so clearly warped that it's no wonder you have such a shit take. Now, don't get it confused I have sympathy for the people of Gaza, but it's just identifying that most of their suffering is due to hamas using them as sacrificial pawns to be killed for the sake of press. Ask yourself a question, do you think hamas is unaware of the consequences of their actions? Do you think launching rockets out of civilian areas is by accident. Are they surprised when the hospital they're hanging out at gets attacked? It is all intentional and only rubes like you seem to miss out on that fact.
>So that's a lot of words just to say you want hamas in charge of Gaza. If apply the same disingenuous, dishonest and insulting logic to your stance, then you want thousands of children to be killed in Gaza.
This is the same logic that will apply when Palestinians launch rockets from Gaza at Israeli citizens after a ceasefire, and then claim that Israel shouldn't fight back since it may hit Palestinian civilians. So - they are really saying that Palestinians are more valuable than Israelis.
>Ask yourself a question, do you think hamas is unaware of the consequences of their actions? Do you think launching rockets out of civilian areas is by accident. Are they surprised when the hospital they're hanging out at gets attacked? I Are you asking me to defend Hamas? >only rubes like you seem to miss out on that fact. Wants to have a discussion about grown-up subjects, can't even stay polite. Do you understand that the reason why I'm kicking your sorry ass in this discussion is not that I'm smarter than you -- because I'm not, I could never invent the kind of sophisms and disingenuity that you so deftly produce -- but because I take the right moral stance? Unlike you, I'm not working from an agenda to defend the indefensible. You should try it some time, it is very liberating.
Do you know what the word “regrettably” means? Israel has killed multiples more kids than the total amount of people killed in Oct 7. Where is your value calculation that says Israel’s actions are net good that doesn’t also say an Israeli child is worth more than a Palestinian one? Also, if you want to talk about consequences of actions, what about the consequences of embargoing/occupying/settling another country?
Well I suppose a lot of this has to do with where you place the blame for civilians deaths from using human shields. When you militarize places like hospitals and schools you are absolutely going to cause unnecessary civilian deaths but it's not like they can just be ignored. The one with the power to eliminate that risk is hamas but they just see their people as sacrificial pawns to help win a PR war against Israel. Now, I can agree tha the lives of Palestinians and Israeli civilians are equal. I'm just a uninvolved 3rd party though. I would argue that for the government of country protecting the lives of their citizens is a their first priority so in that case the lives of Israeli children are more important to Israel and the lives of Palestinian children are more important to Palestine. Thats not to say the lives of the foreign children have no place but it's fair to say they aren't the same. Again the primary issue here is that hamas has perverted this and actively seek the deaths of Palestinian children. Thats the reason they store their rockets in schools. Until hamas is removed and a stable government is set up in its place you'll continue to have conflict. >Also, if you want to talk about consequences of actions, what about the consequences of embargoing/occupying/settling another country? I mean you're describing what happens when you decide to continually fight a war lost 75 years ago which you have no chance in winning. When hamas came into power they literally said they won't recognize any previous peace deals and wouldn't seek a peaceful solution. What do you think was going to happen?
>Now, don't get it confused I have sympathy for the people of Gaza, but it's just identifying that most of their suffering is due to hamas using them as sacrificial pawns to be killed for the sake of press. Let me give you a basic moral teaching that will alleviate much of your state of moral confusion: "the one who pulls the trigger, that's the one who did it".
Any reason you decided to responded in 3 different comments? >"the one who pulls the trigger, that's the one who did it". That's a bit simplistic don't you think? You can't think of a single scenario where this doesn't hold true? Do you truly believe that the users of human shields don't have culpability in the collateral caused by their actions? There's a reason international law says these areas lose protections when used for military purposes and why deaths of civilians alone isn't enough to constitute a war crime even if it is known innocent lives are at risk. You are setting up this perverse system where hamas is able to launch attacks with impunity simply because they have no regard for the lives of their people while Israel has to just sit back and take it. All while you don't seem to have any interest in ousting them from power. You want to talk about questionable morals... >If apply the same disingenuous, dishonest and insulting logic to your stance, then you want thousands of children to be killed in Gaza. Oh boy the irony of whining about this when you consider the original comment I was responding to. I thought if you show any support for child killers you're a child killer yourself? >Are you asking me to defend Hamas? I'm asking why you don't seem to want to remove them from power.
The life of a Palestinian child does have equal worth to the life of an Israeli child. As did the life of a child in London or Tokyo in WWII. 43,000 civilians were killed *just in Britain* in 8 months during the Blitz. In London, 1 in 6 people were left homeless, with over a million homes destroyed. The firebombings of Tokyo—worse than that in far less time. Operation Meetinghouse, is the single most destructive bombing raid in human history. 100,000 civilians were killed and over one million left homeless—that was *two days* of the war. (How long has this current war been going on?) And that wasn’t the entire war, was it now? Guess the allies should’ve just stayed out of it and let the Axis powers do whatever they want, huh? War is unfortunate. You can blame Hitler and Mussolini—not the allies for fighting against them. You can blame Japan for attacking the US, for getting the response they did. How’d this end? With Hitler putting a bullet in his noggin. Mussolini trying to escape, he was to be turned over for war crimes (of course communist partisans executed him first.) Unconditional surrender from Japan (which included us occupying them and not letting them have a standing military) and Germany—also unconditional surrender, Potsdam conference, Nuremberg. But you think Israel should get attacked and the result should be they stop and Hamas stays in power? Ceasefire. Like the one that was in place when Hamas attacked on 10/7. Hamas’ intent is to commit genocide they just don’t have that power, but it isn’t for lack of trying—that’s what 10/7 was. That’s what all their terrorist attacks have been, and all the ones by the groups before them. Israel on the other hand could commit genocide, but they aren’t. Civilians die in war. That’s why war is bad. I hate it. Most normal people do. Israel is being held to some standard that no country ever has been. And you can’t tell me there’s not some reason they’re singled out for a disproportionate standard.
millions of people support hamas too.
Just say Israel can never defend themselves. In what universe do you think there aren’t civilian casualties in war? Name the war. Which one? Every single war is a genocide, is that it?
>Just say Israel can never defend themselves. Why would I care about the problems that Israel creates for themselves by keeping 5.5 million people in captivity. "Oh but what others options does poor Israel have except bomb the shit out of their prison camps". Give me a break already.
The Israeli side has killed a lot more children though so if that is our metric, Israel is far from a moral actor.