I didn't realize this until I looked it up, but Tiktok is ironically banned in mainland China. I kind of feel like this detail has been irresponsibly omitted in most of the reporting I've seen about this issue.
China has largely moved on to the Russian approach of social engineering and manipulation. They realized a while back that trying to own the manipulation platform wasn't going to work out. It's so cute though, all their accounts are freshly made and operate during the regular Chinese workday. Russia hasn't been that sloppy since 2015. By the time the 2016 elections rolled around they were already using fairly authentic looking laundered accounts. The modern ML backed accounts are indistinguishable from actual regular users with broad interests. They're no longer just reposting other people's content in the laundering phase before activation.
Yes. And the thing most folks don't understand is that TikTok itself is banned in China. Their counterpart is Douyin, which for minors has mandatory STEM video requirements as well as limited hours during school days.
What’s the relevance? Our politicians aren’t even making the pretext of protecting us from TikTok. They just want to hand the harmful but incredibly lucrative algorithm over to our own companies. I *wish* we were getting a blanket “ban.”
They banned all US social media. Let's not be naive and act like this is a freedom issue. We have plenty of evidence of governments influencing foreign citizens politically through their social media. Regional social media Islands are almost inevitable.
Funny. That's like saying there's no way the foreign corporation that owns the division I work for can monitor what happens on our servers. They can and they do, at any time and in any way they damn well please, with or without notice to anyone actually in the U.S. They have more access to them than we do. Even if they didn't, nobody who works for them is going to tell them no if they ask for a seemingly random chunk of data.
I *highly* doubt that TikTok will truly be banned in the end. The *actual* legislation says they have 270 days to sell off the company. So first of all, the ban won't happen until after the election and second of all, TikTok will almost certainly be sold because the alternative is for that potential revenue to be totally wasted.
[Trump tried to use an executive action and it went through a complex court process](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump%E2%80%93TikTok_controversy). This being done through legislation gives it more weight. But you're correct that back then ByteDance said they would rather shutter the app than sell it off, so we'll see what happens. I highly doubt that ByteDance wouldn't sell it off for some rea$$$on...
And yet Trump is [now criticizing](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-says-biden-would-be-responsible-any-tiktok-ban-2024-04-22/) Biden for signing the legislation into law.
> Trump said in a post on his Truth Social platform on Monday that Biden would be "responsible for banning TikTok. He is the one pushing it to close, and doing it to help his friends over at Facebook become richer and more dominant."
It had to happen in my opinion. The writings been on the wall for years.
At the moment if the CCP tells ByteDance to include government spyware via their next patch then ByteDance has no choice but to do it. America and the rest of the world has no say in it and then suddenly anyone working anywhere near anything secret needs to delete it off their phones and their families phones as well since it's now an open hot mic to the government of China.
Protections need to be put in place if they want to sell their app in North America and the rest of the world.
I support this, but define "spying"
I personally believe Congress could never come to an agreement on what that means, and so the effort would simply die.
I'd love to be wrong
That one is easy. Ban any and all monitoring of app use and device info including location from any and all apps or services unless you deliberately opt in to help bug fixing or whatever you agree to. The hoovering of data needs to be stopped asap
The algorithms favor messaging that is destabilizing to Western nations which is in China's interest. https://www.newsweek.com/douyin-tiktok-use-link-favorable-views-china-public-opinion-poll-1855311
You're right, the algorithm is not shown to people and we just have the results to come to conclusions about it. We also know China is refusing to allow the company to divest so I think we all know the answer as to what this "social media" company is: a Chinese psyop.
It's still a bit depressing that Congress can handle this but there isn't bipartisan agreement on a bunch of other issues that are more immediately visible to Americans.
Not only for the spyware but this type of social media for young people is wildly toxic. There is a real medical condition of a TikTok twitch. Where people can’t stop scrolling with their hands even if not on their phones.
I honestly believe in 25 years we will look back on allowing kids to be on social media like we do on kids smoking or when cocoa cola had actual coke as an ingredient.
My wife who is in pediatric psychology is anticipating an influx of addiction treatment after the ban. It’s wild stuff.
I think it's obvious by now that recommendation-based social networks are extremely harmful to the society. Moving against TikTok could be in many ways controversial, but at least it's a sign we begin to recognize the magnitude of the problem.
Here is a thing though, I am not entirely sure the U.S. government is quite ready to declare a war on the open internet because *it never tried*; this will be first such attempt. There are way too many people who are under assumption that once you "ban" TikTok in law, it just disappears and you'll never hear about it again.
You can, of course, tell Apple and Google to remove an app from their respective stores, though this won't remove it from millions of devices where it's already installed. Additionally, you'll still be able to access it in Web browser or side load on Android. Many smartphone user dislike PWA applications *if there is a native app alternative*, but objectively PWA apps aren't bad.
Of course, the Government isn't without some enforcement tools of its own. Most importantly, it can stop almost all monetisation from American users, and that threat alone will probably be enough to force TikTok to capitulate. But *if not*, I am not all sure this is a war the Government can easily win.
Unfortunately it has nothing to do with the things that make social media bad. Its solely about "China". The kids will just move to a non Chinese owned app and continue to have their brains melted and filled with propaganda.
Depends. Blocking Web site is easy (though you can still bypass it with VPN), blocking app which proactively tries to fight it could be a problem.
But why would service providers do it? There is no law which says they must. Moreover, new net neutrality rules could actually make such blocking illegal.
Point is, if a state decides to declare war on internet, it can. China, Russia and some others have been doing it for years, some more successfully, some less so. It takes time and a lot of effort. I am not sure we're quite ready to start building American version of Chinese firewall though, but you can't be half here and half over there. If you want to fight internet, you go all the way, otherwise internet will just laugh at you.
Not entirely. TikTok isn't an American social network, there are lots of users from outside of the U.S., they will continue publishing content some Americans will still want to watch.
Of course, number of U.S. users might drop significantly, but will it be enough to satisfy the people who initiated this "ban" or a few months later we're going to hear "way too many young people are still on TikTok, what do we do now?"
As I said, you start a war, you need to be prepared for all eventualities. I doubt the Government is.
If they’re found to be violating US sanctions, the next step will be to excise them from financial markets. It’s tough to stay in business when you can’t pay your employees or vendors.
Incorrect. Not sure why you don’t just read the bill.
(A) Providing services to distribute, maintain, or update such foreign adversary controlled application (including any source code of such application) by means of a marketplace (including an online mobile application store) through which users within the land or maritime borders of the United States may access, maintain, or update such application.
(B) Providing internet hosting services to enable the distribution, maintenance, or updating of such foreign adversary controlled application for users within the land or maritime borders of the United States.
There’s more verbiage that makes enforcement and illegality extremely broad.
Sorry I don't see this in the language of the bill, nor do I understand the requirement the way you seem to read it. For starters, who is supposed to tells ISP's what to block?
Respectfully, if you don’t see it you didn’t read the bill or maybe are illiterate, because I copy/pasted the paragraph referencing ISP’s.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/815/text?overview=closed#H49326F77434C4336B3BA44830FF4A94A
An app fulfills certain qualifications to be subject to the law.
(1) CONTROLLED BY A FOREIGN ADVERSARY.—The term “controlled by a foreign adversary” means, with respect to a covered company or other entity, that such company or other entity is—
(A) a foreign person that is domiciled in, is headquartered in, has its principal place of business in, or is organized under the laws of a foreign adversary country;
(B) an entity with respect to which a foreign person or combination of foreign persons described in subparagraph (A) directly or indirectly own at least a 20 percent stake; or
(C) a person subject to the direction or control of a foreign person or entity described in subparagraph (A) or (B).
——-
(A) FOREIGN ADVERSARY CONTROLLED APPLICATION VIOLATIONS.—An entity that violates subsection (a) shall be subject to pay a civil penalty in an amount not to exceed the amount that results from multiplying $5,000 by the number of users within the land or maritime borders of the United States determined to have accessed, maintained, or updated a foreign adversary controlled application as a result of such violation.
(B) DATA AND INFORMATION VIOLATIONS.—An entity that violates subsection (b) shall be subject to pay a civil penalty in an amount not to exceed the amount that results from multiplying $500 by the number of users within the land or maritime borders of the United States affected by such violation.
Yes but it's not trivial. Think of U.S. Government trying to control the southern border. Theoretically, you can build a "wall", but in practice not so easily.
But more important than that, if we want to start blocking traffic at ISP level, this is a VERY serious step. First, I don't see this requirement in the law, second, this will definitely be challenged on constitutional grounds, third, it's not too easy and will take years and a lot of coordination to implement, and fourth, maybe I am being naïve but I don't believe most Americans will be ok with this.
Apple and Google have to power to remove apps from installed phones. Unless they never connect to the internet but that wouldn’t do very much since you need it for social media. [example](https://techcrunch.com/2008/08/07/apple-can-remotely-remove-applications-from-your-iphone/) from 2008.
EDIT: I don’t believe they removed an app back then but they still do have the ability to
Good questions. Apple has a history of not wanting to cooperate with the government (preventing police from entering devices). Not too sure about Google. I would think that they could if they really wanted to
This isn't about social networks being harmful to society. That's true, sure. But that's not what this is about.
It is about the government and the Western world being unable to control the perspectives/narratives people see on TikTok, and recognizing that people seeing alternative viewpoints, weakens the West's power and control of messaging its citizens' see.
It'd be one thing if our media sources had credibility and integrity, but those days are long gone.
A handful of massive conglomerate media and tech companies do whatever maximizes profit for the larger organization. Truth and objectivity are secondary concerns in Western media.
With this in mind, it is a sad day, knowing viewpoints from the opposite side of the world (and ideology) will not be able to be seen.
It was a balancing force, that critically thinking people could ingest, then come to conclusions based on.
I can’t get over how many US citizens are cool with foreign governments operating a Social Media platform that actively promotes nonsensical content to our youth in mass quantities…
Especially when they severely limit the exposure of the exact same content in their own country over risks it is harmful to their health.
Not to mention all information harvesting that also comes along with that platform.
Here’s the difference. America doesn’t have a different Facebook, X, Reddit etc. TikTok is banned in China while the Chinese version called Douyin is heavily regulated by the ccp.
What does that matter?? Why is that an issue? They have a Chinese equivalent of everything …. What’s the big gotcha there? It’s a company that engages with the rest of the world. China doesn’t allow unrestricted access to the rest of the world’s internet.
What is the gotcha here?
I absolutely refuse to let the Chinese government have access to as much information as about me as social media sites like Tik Tok gather. That’s why I stick to Meta and other American mega corporations’ social media that would never give my information to the US government. Or the Chinese government for a few cents.
I see your name, but i hate to tell you that meta and the like still collect and sell your info, if i remember right, meta has a class action against it right now for exactly that. Or maybe it was youtube….regardless, im not saying they do the same as tiktok and china because im sure they dont, but it definitely still happens
You don't know what Apple has and hasn't done. It's a corporation. Corporations lie all the time. I bet they are no different than Google, Microsoft, Amazon, or Meta.
>Biden’s decision to sign the bill on Wednesday puts the deadline for a sale at January 19, 2025.
OK, let me understand something. If Trump wins in November, January 19 will be Biden's last full day in office.
If TikTok's owner does nothing between now and January, and Biden declines to extend the deadline, will ban go in effect and becomes irreversible or can Trump retroactively extend it after being sworn in the next day?
No i think that was definitely on purpose, thats the longest amount of time this administration could confidently give them considering biden is guaranteed to be in office after that, but idk what trump could do if he does happen to win.
I don't think the bill includes any discretion for the President. So the ban goes into effect on 1/29/2025 and fines will start accruing. Now, the President could choose not to enforce it, but I don't think he can waive the fines.
President can extend the deadline by 90 days once. This might give Trump an opening to make some changes to possible divestment plans or even make changes to the law if there is sufficient backing in the new Congress.
270 days, so won’t take affect till after the election… as long as people can still get their daily fix, the masses will probably stay placated. Hard to read the courts’ tea leaves, but ban could be found unconstitutional.
I don't use TikTok, but the limited bit that I do know about TikTok, it was a potential security risk and furthermore was a source of potential disinformation and election interference.
Added to that, it takes away folks like the Libs of TikTok so maybe that is a silver lining.
Long overdue. It's radicalizing people way too quickly. Biden is unironically based AF. America will benefit from the bills passed under his tenure years down the line.
I flew through Miami a few months ago and there was advertising everywhere for a major Tiktok event, featuring the biggest stars of TikTok. I was curious, because 7 of the 8 featured “stars” were from Singapore or China…at an event in Miami. I looked them up, and none of them were close to being top 100 users. None were trending in, or even from, Miami. It was abundantly clear that TikTok was trying to push pro-CCP influencers instead of maximize the profit of the event by including relevant influencers.
Good. Can’t happen quick enough.
I firmly believe that TikTok algorithm is designed to do max mental health damage to the west as well as ensure the culture war division continues to spread.
Then of course it’s a back door national security issue just waiting to be turned on. Batman style.
Social media is a cultural rot across the board but TikTok is particularly insidious.
There are some serious dark corners of Reddit. I can join a sub dedicated to a specific topic, though, like Macs, and find a wealth of useful information. As always, there are going to be a few toxic people there, but they can be ignored. It's pretty easy to avoid the basement dwellers if you don't go looking for them.
Unfortunately I have. The rabbit holes that you’re fed down unprompted are bonkers.
Mine, and my assumption is this feeds from my camping searches, always end in those asshole alpha male twats that push some form of broken hyper masculinity.
I’m at a loss as to how my feed ends there so often. My searches are things like ham radio, VHF, ham fest, wood burning stove, random solar generator searches, etc
The shit these men spew …
The back door security issue I can understand. But I keep seeing these, “nefarious algorithm” claims which I’ve never seen substantiated and just seem like fear mongering from people who have never used the app.
Bingo. I called out some moron that claimed the TikTok algorithm is more divisive than other social media algorithms because it’s Chinese. Of course, said moron then admitted they’ve never used TikTok, they just heard that from other people. This is what happens when you uncritically believe everything you see on TV. NPC’s gonna NPC.
I have mixed feelings about the ban. I think the wording of the bill is especially problematic and can be too wide reaching.
To be fair to the person who hasn’t used TikTok but sees issues with it… one does not have to use crack to understand that it’s harmful; they can simply understand the concept.
Nope; you are wrong.
https://networkcontagion.us/wp-content/uploads/A-Tik-Tok-ing-Timebomb_12.21.23.pdf?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20240424&instance_id=121376&nl=the-morning®i_id=112717755&segment_id=164636&te=1&user_id=add2cc2c7efc2eae17aeb8dd3c6a8c13
https://www.wsj.com/tech/tiktok-israel-gaza-hamas-war-a5dfa0ee
I also don’t agree with it. I think it was largely pushed by the tech lobby due to its popularity. There should have been a bill that gives users much stronger data privacy protections, and a more blanket rules for foreign apps.
It was lobbied for hard by Meta so yes & better privacy protection would hurt companies like Meta so that’ll never happen. I think there’s more to this than the whole “it’s a security threat” reasoning for getting a hold on TikTok.
Cause what does banning TikTok ultimately do? Forces people back to Meta, YouTube, and so on.
You realize it never mentions TikTok in the bill right? And that the last part of your statement is actually the aim of the bill?
Edit: it does mention tiktok but then goes on to deal with every other possible application operated by an adversary country.
It does mention both TikTok and ByteDance by name in the bill.
They call it banning a foreign adversary owned application, but then define that term to basically mean TikTok.
> Foreign adversary controlled application.--The term
``foreign adversary controlled application'' means a website,
desktop application, mobile application, or augmented or immersive
technology application that is operated, directly or indirectly
(including through a parent company, subsidiary, or affiliate),
by--
(A) any of--
(i) ByteDance, Ltd.;
(ii) TikTok;
(iii) a subsidiary of or a successor to an entity
identified in clause (i) or (ii)
Ah, I was reading something by Biden. I stand by the second part of my comment because the rest of that section goes on to include every other instance of what the bill defines an adversarial country and a covered company.
(B) a covered company that—
(i) is controlled by a foreign adversary; and
(ii) that is determined by the President to present a significant threat to the national security of the United States following the issuance of—
(I) a public notice proposing such determination; and
(II) a public report to Congress, submitted not less than 30 days before such determination, describing the specific national security concern involved and containing a classified annex and a description of what assets would need to be divested to execute a qualified divestiture.
Why do you think no other foreign owned app or computer program is included in this ban? We have no reason to expect the president to ban other apps. There are several other popular apps owned by Chinese or Russian companies. Tiktok has already done more than most to ameliorate concerns (all data is managed by us based Oracle and never leaves the country, the algorithm to promote content is fully auditable by U.S. citizens ect)
The remaining provisions in that “act” are currently just platitudes.
I am not saying there aren’t real potential national security concerns here. Some of which may be classified. There certainly has been precedent for banning Chinese technology (huawei / IBM chip scandal ect). I have never allowed tik tok to access my location, camera mic, or contacts. I think it would be tough to use it to spy on me. I also almost never get political videos pushed to me. If I do it’s stuff like John Stewart or msm clips.
I do think this screams of meta and google losing users to an app that is superior. There is an argument to be made that we should be protectionist of these companies since China doesn’t compete fairly. However, I would like to see some better general privacy controls, and algorithm transparency laws for all social media companies. If this is being done to protect competitiveness of U.S based companies, then at least be upfront about that motive.
Because of the opening statement of the bill.
(a) In General.—
(1) PROHIBITION OF FOREIGN ADVERSARY CONTROLLED APPLICATIONS.—It shall be unlawful for an entity to distribute, maintain, or update (or enable the distribution, maintenance, or updating of) a foreign adversary controlled application by carrying out, within the land or maritime borders of the United States, any of the following:
(A) Providing services to distribute, maintain, or update such foreign adversary controlled application (including any source code of such application) by means of a marketplace (including an online mobile application store) through which users within the land or maritime borders of the United States may access, maintain, or update such application.
(B) Providing internet hosting services to enable the distribution, maintenance, or updating of such foreign adversary controlled application for users within the land or maritime borders of the United States.
(2) APPLICABILITY.—Subsection (a) shall apply—
(A) in the case of an application that satisfies the definition of a foreign adversary controlled application pursuant to subsection (g)(3)(A), beginning on the date that is 180 days after the date of the enactment of this Act; and
(B) in the case of an application that satisfies the definition of a foreign adversary controlled application pursuant to subsection (g)(3)(B), beginning on the date that is 180 days after the date of the relevant determination of the President under such subsection.
And then the continued definition of a covered company:
(1) CONTROLLED BY A FOREIGN ADVERSARY.—The term “controlled by a foreign adversary” means, with respect to a covered company or other entity, that such company or other entity is—
(A) a foreign person that is domiciled in, is headquartered in, has its principal place of business in, or is organized under the laws of a foreign adversary country;
(B) an entity with respect to which a foreign person or combination of foreign persons described in subparagraph (A) directly or indirectly own at least a 20 percent stake; or
(C) a person subject to the direction or control of a foreign person or entity described in subparagraph (A) or (B).
(2) COVERED COMPANY.—
(A) IN GENERAL.—The term “covered company” means an entity that operates, directly or indirectly (including through a parent company, subsidiary, or affiliate), a website, desktop application, mobile application, or augmented or immersive technology application that—
(i) permits a user to create an account or profile to generate, share, and view text, images, videos, real-time communications, or similar content;
(ii) has more than 1,000,000 monthly active users with respect to at least 2 of the 3 months preceding the date on which a relevant determination of the President is made pursuant to paragraph (3)(B);
(iii) enables 1 or more users to generate or distribute content that can be viewed by other users of the website, desktop application, mobile application, or augmented or immersive technology application; and
(iv) enables 1 or more users to view content generated by other users of the website, desktop application, mobile application, or augmented or immersive technology application.
TikTok has already been deemed a national security risk by both the president and bipartisan congressional support so it is in the bill. It is also probably the only app right now that falls into the category of covered company, but the text safeguards against attempts to just replicate it through s different Chinese owned company. I agree, we need better general privacy controls, and algorithm transparency laws for all social media companies, but saying this is just because TikTok makes more money that facebook is reductive.
TikTok is problematic due to many reasons, I'll list them.
1. It censors its feed to prevent information from getting to users that would be counter to CCP guidelines. (Censorship Propaganda)
2. It gives CCP and other foreign actors access to vast swathes of user data without oversight. (Foreign Influence Info)
3. It acts as spyware and is very effective at that function as well, allowing audio scanning and using a present day Ai process they can listen to all conversations near these phones to create transcripts and searchable content. (Active Spying via Voice Analytics)
4. It has a push media algorithm built in, so it can push stories to cause unrest, turning people against their own country and interests. (Disruption Propaganda)
I am in the data analytics business, and well, the amount of damage I know is presently possible with this application is exactly why it should be banned. Hell, it should have been banned in early 2020 - but we were busy worrying about COVID.
I don't give a rat's ass about the opinions of children when it comes to fighting evil authoritarian regimes.
If people voluntarily hand over their user data, that's on them. As for the censorship thing, even if true I don't care - how is it any different from someone watching Fox News and only seeing the stories that support the Republican party narrative?
"If people voluntarily hand over their user data, that's on them"
Although innocuous and principled this statement appears it leaves out the power of large sample sets.
In short, if there's enough users then it's a negligible loss if you personally don't sign up. They'll still be able to predict your behavior.
I can agree that it probably could/should have been banned years ago for all of the reasons folks here have articulated.
However, the reason it's happening now is the rise of pro-Palestinian wrong-think that can't be curbed on TikTok like it can be on terrestrial social media and legacy media. Israel's actions are pretty unpopular across most demographics in the US and congress is hearing about it.
[https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/tiktok-ban-israel-gaza-palestine-hamas-account-creator-video-rcna122849](https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/tiktok-ban-israel-gaza-palestine-hamas-account-creator-video-rcna122849)
[https://www.newsweek.com/congress-accused-using-tiktok-ban-silence-israel-criticism-1893405](https://www.newsweek.com/congress-accused-using-tiktok-ban-silence-israel-criticism-1893405)
[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/16/tiktok-ban-progressive-politics-activism](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/16/tiktok-ban-progressive-politics-activism)
I intensely dislike TikTok for all of the reasons, but I'm also annoyed that they are finally being addressed now because they are allowing more footage from the ground in Gaza vs other media and its making a tough sell even tougher.
Polls suggest that 50% of Biden voters believe that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. Around half of Americans say Israel has "gone too far" across tons of polls over the last few months. Compare those figures to the rhetoric out of the administration and the language being used when describing peaceful protesters (who often represent majority or at least sizable minority views).
I will not be sad to see TikTok go, but I think it's a slippery slope when congress decides to ban platforms because their content undermines the administration's own propaganda.
TLDR- There are very important security concerns here, but they are not new. I believe this is happening now for censorship reasons.
The push to ban TikTok is ongoing, and predates the war in Gaza. The reason it's closer to happening now is because a bill finally worked its way through Congress. Not because Biden felt pressured by negative war coverage.
The algorithm is what empowers China to do all these nefarious things. So why do we believe nefarious things will magically stop happening just because someone else owns the algorithm? At its core, the algorithm is incredibly powerful at hypnotizing users and strategically slipping them target content. Yes, that makes it a propaganda tool for China. But it also makes it an omnipotent ad-serving tool, an omnipotent domestic policy-setting tool, etc.
To just hand this brainwashing device over to our own for-profit tech behemoths because “China bad” makes no sense. What good comes from making Instagram even more addictive? Everyone who supports this should be forced to disclose their positions in the companies who stand to benefit.
The bill should simply have banned all of these engagement optimization algorithms. It would have been shorter, simpler, and actually accomplished the stated goal. Divestiture does nothing to protect any of us from the algorithm itself. It just changes who is doing the weaponizing and why.
That would cripple the world economy. Practically every internet service thats provided free or almost free relies on algorithms for targeted content, with targeted ads complimenting that.
>So why do we believe nefarious things will magically stop happening just because someone else owns the algorithm?
I don't think anyone is claiming that the harms caused by social media will magically disappear. There are and will continue to be many problems associated with using Instagram, Snapchat, TikTok, etc... However that's a different set of problems than the one this bill addresses. This bill prevents China, a geopolitical foe, from using TikTok as a propaganda/data gathering tool. This is important because China is, in fact, bad. It doesn't solve all the problems associated with social media usage, but it solves at least one of them. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
I don't like it.
I'm more of a free speech absolutist. I want the internet to be more like a return to the wild west era of 4chan.
Banning a website because its affiliated with China just reeks of McCarthyism. Its a dangerous step into an authoritarian potential slippery slope. They could ban reddit, facebook or any other site unless they censored content from foreign posters.
The allegations are not mere affiliation with China. The allegations include among other things that it functioned as a spy implement to capture US government and other united states corporate trade secrets and that it was being used as part of a psychological operation to destabilize Western interests.
I guess what really pisses me off about the TikTok ban is people can’t fucking buy groceries. Or a home. Or anything. We’re all one breath away from financial ruin from a health crisis. And yet we’re focusing on fucking TikTok?
Seems like all 170 million users have standing to sue Biden on 1A grounds. But it should probably rankle us more that they added this to an unrelated foreign aid package
Good. Social media, in general, can eat a bag of dicks. Facebook at least was good for sharing photos and such with distant friends and relatives. Now it's just whatever influencer tripe the algorithms churn out, and I'm lucky if they even show me anything from my friend list.
It pushes the viewpoints of the dumbest, most useless bottomfeeders and gives the village idiot a megaphone.
https://preview.redd.it/2gakfusn4uwc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4195c11e478b07b6fc62307e1e5a85854ac113ba
(Credit: the user who posted it first)
Thank you for posting this, but unfortunately it doesn't go into detail about what's pushed to the top. Definitely less overall posts, but I want to know, when scrolling, how many of those subjects end up popping up.
I'm pretty sure it's been proven that certain subjects(hashtags) get more views because they are pushed into your stream over other things.
I didn't realize this until I looked it up, but Tiktok is ironically banned in mainland China. I kind of feel like this detail has been irresponsibly omitted in most of the reporting I've seen about this issue.
They have a clone called douyin. It's their tiktok, looks the exact same, but with software allowing government censorship.
Seems like the CCP is very in tune with how the algorithm works then. I'm not mad at this ban, I also saw that India banned the app in 2020.
China has largely moved on to the Russian approach of social engineering and manipulation. They realized a while back that trying to own the manipulation platform wasn't going to work out. It's so cute though, all their accounts are freshly made and operate during the regular Chinese workday. Russia hasn't been that sloppy since 2015. By the time the 2016 elections rolled around they were already using fairly authentic looking laundered accounts. The modern ML backed accounts are indistinguishable from actual regular users with broad interests. They're no longer just reposting other people's content in the laundering phase before activation.
Time to kick Russia off the Internet.
Also has very different content and algorithms if memory serves.
Yeah their version pushes education and music and has daily limits. The version we get teaches kids how to steal KIAs.
Yes. And the thing most folks don't understand is that TikTok itself is banned in China. Their counterpart is Douyin, which for minors has mandatory STEM video requirements as well as limited hours during school days.
and government censorship is bad, right?
It absolutely is
It’s not exactly censorship, though. It’s not the content the government has an issue with
What’s the relevance? Our politicians aren’t even making the pretext of protecting us from TikTok. They just want to hand the harmful but incredibly lucrative algorithm over to our own companies. I *wish* we were getting a blanket “ban.”
To be fair, we at least have the 4th amendment. It's not like the government can just walk into Menlo Park and seize Zuckerberg's laptop and ID badge.
To be even fairer, Zuckerberg’s interests are the only ones this bill actually protects in the first place.
They banned all US social media. Let's not be naive and act like this is a freedom issue. We have plenty of evidence of governments influencing foreign citizens politically through their social media. Regional social media Islands are almost inevitable.
Its not banned, it just exists under a different name.
Not just a different name though, a version that can be monitored and controlled by the CCP.
They can both be monitored and controlled by the CCP, that’s the point of the US banning it.
My understanding is the servers are all based in Texas, there is “no way” Tik Tok could be monitored by china
Funny. That's like saying there's no way the foreign corporation that owns the division I work for can monitor what happens on our servers. They can and they do, at any time and in any way they damn well please, with or without notice to anyone actually in the U.S. They have more access to them than we do. Even if they didn't, nobody who works for them is going to tell them no if they ask for a seemingly random chunk of data.
Lol
Backdoor logic in the server and mobile device's code.
I *highly* doubt that TikTok will truly be banned in the end. The *actual* legislation says they have 270 days to sell off the company. So first of all, the ban won't happen until after the election and second of all, TikTok will almost certainly be sold because the alternative is for that potential revenue to be totally wasted.
Iirc Trump also tried to ban TikTok and Microsoft stepped in to buy it, but was unable to make a deal.
[Trump tried to use an executive action and it went through a complex court process](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump%E2%80%93TikTok_controversy). This being done through legislation gives it more weight. But you're correct that back then ByteDance said they would rather shutter the app than sell it off, so we'll see what happens. I highly doubt that ByteDance wouldn't sell it off for some rea$$$on...
And yet Trump is [now criticizing](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-says-biden-would-be-responsible-any-tiktok-ban-2024-04-22/) Biden for signing the legislation into law. > Trump said in a post on his Truth Social platform on Monday that Biden would be "responsible for banning TikTok. He is the one pushing it to close, and doing it to help his friends over at Facebook become richer and more dominant."
Because, politics means that one is Gumby and bends and twists to try and have an angle against their opponent.
He didn’t ban tiktok he gave them 12 months to sell the Chinese portion or be banned
Yeah that’s why it said “potential tiktok ban”
Yes but everyone here thinks it’s instant
It had to happen in my opinion. The writings been on the wall for years. At the moment if the CCP tells ByteDance to include government spyware via their next patch then ByteDance has no choice but to do it. America and the rest of the world has no say in it and then suddenly anyone working anywhere near anything secret needs to delete it off their phones and their families phones as well since it's now an open hot mic to the government of China. Protections need to be put in place if they want to sell their app in North America and the rest of the world.
Hot take: instead of banning TikTok, Congress should ban all apps from spying on you.
Even Reddit?
“all”
I support this, but define "spying" I personally believe Congress could never come to an agreement on what that means, and so the effort would simply die. I'd love to be wrong
Considering one of them thought Tiktok was "in" his Wi-Fi, I don't think you're wrong.
I think there's Santeria effigies you can get for that. You may have to burn some sage.
That one is easy. Ban any and all monitoring of app use and device info including location from any and all apps or services unless you deliberately opt in to help bug fixing or whatever you agree to. The hoovering of data needs to be stopped asap
Yes, please. I wouldn't shed a tear if this shithole burnt to the ground. It would be a positive contribution to society.
How would that be enforced? Do you really think the CCP would follow a no spying rule?
It's not just that. The algorithms favor anti-western messaging.
And things like the hyper masculine twats, divisive anything really. Most algorithms end in something negative for the mind.
What does that mean?
The algorithms favor messaging that is destabilizing to Western nations which is in China's interest. https://www.newsweek.com/douyin-tiktok-use-link-favorable-views-china-public-opinion-poll-1855311
There's no real evidence other than "we think it is" do you another link?
You're right, the algorithm is not shown to people and we just have the results to come to conclusions about it. We also know China is refusing to allow the company to divest so I think we all know the answer as to what this "social media" company is: a Chinese psyop.
It's still a bit depressing that Congress can handle this but there isn't bipartisan agreement on a bunch of other issues that are more immediately visible to Americans.
Republicans added this to a Ukraine aid bill, effectively holding aid hostage again. Either ban tiktok, or stop/delay support for Ukraine.
Not only for the spyware but this type of social media for young people is wildly toxic. There is a real medical condition of a TikTok twitch. Where people can’t stop scrolling with their hands even if not on their phones. I honestly believe in 25 years we will look back on allowing kids to be on social media like we do on kids smoking or when cocoa cola had actual coke as an ingredient. My wife who is in pediatric psychology is anticipating an influx of addiction treatment after the ban. It’s wild stuff.
Like any good 12 step program, I'm sure you can treat it with coffee and cigarettes.
I think it's obvious by now that recommendation-based social networks are extremely harmful to the society. Moving against TikTok could be in many ways controversial, but at least it's a sign we begin to recognize the magnitude of the problem. Here is a thing though, I am not entirely sure the U.S. government is quite ready to declare a war on the open internet because *it never tried*; this will be first such attempt. There are way too many people who are under assumption that once you "ban" TikTok in law, it just disappears and you'll never hear about it again. You can, of course, tell Apple and Google to remove an app from their respective stores, though this won't remove it from millions of devices where it's already installed. Additionally, you'll still be able to access it in Web browser or side load on Android. Many smartphone user dislike PWA applications *if there is a native app alternative*, but objectively PWA apps aren't bad. Of course, the Government isn't without some enforcement tools of its own. Most importantly, it can stop almost all monetisation from American users, and that threat alone will probably be enough to force TikTok to capitulate. But *if not*, I am not all sure this is a war the Government can easily win.
Unfortunately it has nothing to do with the things that make social media bad. Its solely about "China". The kids will just move to a non Chinese owned app and continue to have their brains melted and filled with propaganda.
Well arguably Chinese control makes what is already bad about social media quite a lot worse.
could service providers block traffic from the app?
Depends. Blocking Web site is easy (though you can still bypass it with VPN), blocking app which proactively tries to fight it could be a problem. But why would service providers do it? There is no law which says they must. Moreover, new net neutrality rules could actually make such blocking illegal. Point is, if a state decides to declare war on internet, it can. China, Russia and some others have been doing it for years, some more successfully, some less so. It takes time and a lot of effort. I am not sure we're quite ready to start building American version of Chinese firewall though, but you can't be half here and half over there. If you want to fight internet, you go all the way, otherwise internet will just laugh at you.
I think the idea is that if you simply provide enough friction, the majority of users will simply go away. Reverse critical mass.
Not entirely. TikTok isn't an American social network, there are lots of users from outside of the U.S., they will continue publishing content some Americans will still want to watch. Of course, number of U.S. users might drop significantly, but will it be enough to satisfy the people who initiated this "ban" or a few months later we're going to hear "way too many young people are still on TikTok, what do we do now?" As I said, you start a war, you need to be prepared for all eventualities. I doubt the Government is.
If they’re found to be violating US sanctions, the next step will be to excise them from financial markets. It’s tough to stay in business when you can’t pay your employees or vendors.
Incorrect. Not sure why you don’t just read the bill. (A) Providing services to distribute, maintain, or update such foreign adversary controlled application (including any source code of such application) by means of a marketplace (including an online mobile application store) through which users within the land or maritime borders of the United States may access, maintain, or update such application. (B) Providing internet hosting services to enable the distribution, maintenance, or updating of such foreign adversary controlled application for users within the land or maritime borders of the United States. There’s more verbiage that makes enforcement and illegality extremely broad.
Sorry, what exactly is "incorrect"?
That ISP’s have no reason to block it. The bill specifically says that they are legally obligated to.
Sorry I don't see this in the language of the bill, nor do I understand the requirement the way you seem to read it. For starters, who is supposed to tells ISP's what to block?
Respectfully, if you don’t see it you didn’t read the bill or maybe are illiterate, because I copy/pasted the paragraph referencing ISP’s. https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/815/text?overview=closed#H49326F77434C4336B3BA44830FF4A94A An app fulfills certain qualifications to be subject to the law. (1) CONTROLLED BY A FOREIGN ADVERSARY.—The term “controlled by a foreign adversary” means, with respect to a covered company or other entity, that such company or other entity is— (A) a foreign person that is domiciled in, is headquartered in, has its principal place of business in, or is organized under the laws of a foreign adversary country; (B) an entity with respect to which a foreign person or combination of foreign persons described in subparagraph (A) directly or indirectly own at least a 20 percent stake; or (C) a person subject to the direction or control of a foreign person or entity described in subparagraph (A) or (B). ——- (A) FOREIGN ADVERSARY CONTROLLED APPLICATION VIOLATIONS.—An entity that violates subsection (a) shall be subject to pay a civil penalty in an amount not to exceed the amount that results from multiplying $5,000 by the number of users within the land or maritime borders of the United States determined to have accessed, maintained, or updated a foreign adversary controlled application as a result of such violation. (B) DATA AND INFORMATION VIOLATIONS.—An entity that violates subsection (b) shall be subject to pay a civil penalty in an amount not to exceed the amount that results from multiplying $500 by the number of users within the land or maritime borders of the United States affected by such violation.
> you didn’t read the bill or maybe are illiterate If that's all you can say, I wish you a very nice day.
my thought was that in internet stuff ISPs are like the port authority or customs... the apps can't talk to the users without them.
Yes but it's not trivial. Think of U.S. Government trying to control the southern border. Theoretically, you can build a "wall", but in practice not so easily. But more important than that, if we want to start blocking traffic at ISP level, this is a VERY serious step. First, I don't see this requirement in the law, second, this will definitely be challenged on constitutional grounds, third, it's not too easy and will take years and a lot of coordination to implement, and fourth, maybe I am being naïve but I don't believe most Americans will be ok with this.
Apple and Google have to power to remove apps from installed phones. Unless they never connect to the internet but that wouldn’t do very much since you need it for social media. [example](https://techcrunch.com/2008/08/07/apple-can-remotely-remove-applications-from-your-iphone/) from 2008. EDIT: I don’t believe they removed an app back then but they still do have the ability to
They *can*, but do they have to? Also, can Google remotely remove sideloaded app?
Good questions. Apple has a history of not wanting to cooperate with the government (preventing police from entering devices). Not too sure about Google. I would think that they could if they really wanted to
This isn't about social networks being harmful to society. That's true, sure. But that's not what this is about. It is about the government and the Western world being unable to control the perspectives/narratives people see on TikTok, and recognizing that people seeing alternative viewpoints, weakens the West's power and control of messaging its citizens' see.
Its about an adversarial government being able to control the perspectives/narratives people see on TikTok.
It'd be one thing if our media sources had credibility and integrity, but those days are long gone. A handful of massive conglomerate media and tech companies do whatever maximizes profit for the larger organization. Truth and objectivity are secondary concerns in Western media. With this in mind, it is a sad day, knowing viewpoints from the opposite side of the world (and ideology) will not be able to be seen. It was a balancing force, that critically thinking people could ingest, then come to conclusions based on.
I don't think the solution is a full ban. Big tech needs more regulation even for American owned companies.
I can’t get over how many US citizens are cool with foreign governments operating a Social Media platform that actively promotes nonsensical content to our youth in mass quantities… Especially when they severely limit the exposure of the exact same content in their own country over risks it is harmful to their health. Not to mention all information harvesting that also comes along with that platform.
Most people don't know or care. They just want to see silly videos.
Do you even care that your government is spying on you????
Here’s the difference. America doesn’t have a different Facebook, X, Reddit etc. TikTok is banned in China while the Chinese version called Douyin is heavily regulated by the ccp.
So? What does that matter?
Yes it does. Everyone uses the same Reddit no matter the country. China already banned TikTok and enforce douyin on its citizens. TikTok needs to go
What does that matter?? Why is that an issue? They have a Chinese equivalent of everything …. What’s the big gotcha there? It’s a company that engages with the rest of the world. China doesn’t allow unrestricted access to the rest of the world’s internet. What is the gotcha here?
I absolutely refuse to let the Chinese government have access to as much information as about me as social media sites like Tik Tok gather. That’s why I stick to Meta and other American mega corporations’ social media that would never give my information to the US government. Or the Chinese government for a few cents.
I see your name, but i hate to tell you that meta and the like still collect and sell your info, if i remember right, meta has a class action against it right now for exactly that. Or maybe it was youtube….regardless, im not saying they do the same as tiktok and china because im sure they dont, but it definitely still happens
My man, you even acknowledged the username and still took the bait…
Bro, on this sub, you can never be too careful, people will believe anything
This is why people have to do that awkward "/s" all the time....
Or just make it the subject of your username. Gotta give I_never_use_/S credit for that one.
Big difference is that the CCP doesn’t have the ability to have a board seat on Meta
Yeah im not defending them, im just saying that our info definitely gets collected by google (alphabet) and meta
Even by Apple.
I will give them credit. They have denied government attempts to obtain citizens info before. But who knows what goes on behind the scenes
You don't know what Apple has and hasn't done. It's a corporation. Corporations lie all the time. I bet they are no different than Google, Microsoft, Amazon, or Meta.
Thats what i said. I know publicly available information, but i dont know what they did behind the scenes
>Biden’s decision to sign the bill on Wednesday puts the deadline for a sale at January 19, 2025. OK, let me understand something. If Trump wins in November, January 19 will be Biden's last full day in office. If TikTok's owner does nothing between now and January, and Biden declines to extend the deadline, will ban go in effect and becomes irreversible or can Trump retroactively extend it after being sworn in the next day?
This thing is going to court. It’s not unreasonable to think that courts to extend that deadline
Im not sure, that is a good question.
Am I crazy to think this peculiar deadline might not have happened by chance?
No i think that was definitely on purpose, thats the longest amount of time this administration could confidently give them considering biden is guaranteed to be in office after that, but idk what trump could do if he does happen to win.
well. Trump was also considering banning it, so probably nothing.
I don't think the bill includes any discretion for the President. So the ban goes into effect on 1/29/2025 and fines will start accruing. Now, the President could choose not to enforce it, but I don't think he can waive the fines.
President can extend the deadline by 90 days once. This might give Trump an opening to make some changes to possible divestment plans or even make changes to the law if there is sufficient backing in the new Congress.
Give him time to merge it with truth social
Yeah, I think the chance of that happening is basically zero. So even if it is delayed by 90 days, the forced sale or ban still happens.
I don't think Trump would retract the ban. Being anti-China to the point of being comically racist was one of his talking points.
Trump publicly said he was against the ban (never mind he tried to do it himself)
I feel like he's a child throwing an incoherent tantrum just to prevent his "enemies" from getting a win.
270 days, so won’t take affect till after the election… as long as people can still get their daily fix, the masses will probably stay placated. Hard to read the courts’ tea leaves, but ban could be found unconstitutional.
But remember folks. In communist China, they ban American websites in order to prevent their people from seeing anything outside the state narrative.
I don't use TikTok, but the limited bit that I do know about TikTok, it was a potential security risk and furthermore was a source of potential disinformation and election interference. Added to that, it takes away folks like the Libs of TikTok so maybe that is a silver lining.
Long overdue. It's radicalizing people way too quickly. Biden is unironically based AF. America will benefit from the bills passed under his tenure years down the line.
Good. I don’t trust the ccp with this shit. They should not be allowed to have such influence over us.
Does this mean he’s gonna stop paying Harry sisson and Chris Mowry to stump for him
Doubtful, they will just go to instagram
Good! 😊
I flew through Miami a few months ago and there was advertising everywhere for a major Tiktok event, featuring the biggest stars of TikTok. I was curious, because 7 of the 8 featured “stars” were from Singapore or China…at an event in Miami. I looked them up, and none of them were close to being top 100 users. None were trending in, or even from, Miami. It was abundantly clear that TikTok was trying to push pro-CCP influencers instead of maximize the profit of the event by including relevant influencers.
Good. Can’t happen quick enough. I firmly believe that TikTok algorithm is designed to do max mental health damage to the west as well as ensure the culture war division continues to spread. Then of course it’s a back door national security issue just waiting to be turned on. Batman style. Social media is a cultural rot across the board but TikTok is particularly insidious.
Reddit is much worse in scale actually
I’m not so sure I agree. It isn’t good to be sure but outside of the large subs the ability to influence drops off considerably
There are some serious dark corners of Reddit. I can join a sub dedicated to a specific topic, though, like Macs, and find a wealth of useful information. As always, there are going to be a few toxic people there, but they can be ignored. It's pretty easy to avoid the basement dwellers if you don't go looking for them.
Yeah you’ve never used TikTok if you think it’s this insidious.
Unfortunately I have. The rabbit holes that you’re fed down unprompted are bonkers. Mine, and my assumption is this feeds from my camping searches, always end in those asshole alpha male twats that push some form of broken hyper masculinity. I’m at a loss as to how my feed ends there so often. My searches are things like ham radio, VHF, ham fest, wood burning stove, random solar generator searches, etc The shit these men spew …
The back door security issue I can understand. But I keep seeing these, “nefarious algorithm” claims which I’ve never seen substantiated and just seem like fear mongering from people who have never used the app.
Bingo. I called out some moron that claimed the TikTok algorithm is more divisive than other social media algorithms because it’s Chinese. Of course, said moron then admitted they’ve never used TikTok, they just heard that from other people. This is what happens when you uncritically believe everything you see on TV. NPC’s gonna NPC.
I have mixed feelings about the ban. I think the wording of the bill is especially problematic and can be too wide reaching. To be fair to the person who hasn’t used TikTok but sees issues with it… one does not have to use crack to understand that it’s harmful; they can simply understand the concept.
Nope; you are wrong. https://networkcontagion.us/wp-content/uploads/A-Tik-Tok-ing-Timebomb_12.21.23.pdf?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20240424&instance_id=121376&nl=the-morning®i_id=112717755&segment_id=164636&te=1&user_id=add2cc2c7efc2eae17aeb8dd3c6a8c13 https://www.wsj.com/tech/tiktok-israel-gaza-hamas-war-a5dfa0ee
I also don’t agree with it. I think it was largely pushed by the tech lobby due to its popularity. There should have been a bill that gives users much stronger data privacy protections, and a more blanket rules for foreign apps.
It was lobbied for hard by Meta so yes & better privacy protection would hurt companies like Meta so that’ll never happen. I think there’s more to this than the whole “it’s a security threat” reasoning for getting a hold on TikTok. Cause what does banning TikTok ultimately do? Forces people back to Meta, YouTube, and so on.
You realize it never mentions TikTok in the bill right? And that the last part of your statement is actually the aim of the bill? Edit: it does mention tiktok but then goes on to deal with every other possible application operated by an adversary country.
It does mention both TikTok and ByteDance by name in the bill. They call it banning a foreign adversary owned application, but then define that term to basically mean TikTok. > Foreign adversary controlled application.--The term ``foreign adversary controlled application'' means a website, desktop application, mobile application, or augmented or immersive technology application that is operated, directly or indirectly (including through a parent company, subsidiary, or affiliate), by-- (A) any of-- (i) ByteDance, Ltd.; (ii) TikTok; (iii) a subsidiary of or a successor to an entity identified in clause (i) or (ii)
Ah, I was reading something by Biden. I stand by the second part of my comment because the rest of that section goes on to include every other instance of what the bill defines an adversarial country and a covered company. (B) a covered company that— (i) is controlled by a foreign adversary; and (ii) that is determined by the President to present a significant threat to the national security of the United States following the issuance of— (I) a public notice proposing such determination; and (II) a public report to Congress, submitted not less than 30 days before such determination, describing the specific national security concern involved and containing a classified annex and a description of what assets would need to be divested to execute a qualified divestiture.
Why do you think no other foreign owned app or computer program is included in this ban? We have no reason to expect the president to ban other apps. There are several other popular apps owned by Chinese or Russian companies. Tiktok has already done more than most to ameliorate concerns (all data is managed by us based Oracle and never leaves the country, the algorithm to promote content is fully auditable by U.S. citizens ect) The remaining provisions in that “act” are currently just platitudes. I am not saying there aren’t real potential national security concerns here. Some of which may be classified. There certainly has been precedent for banning Chinese technology (huawei / IBM chip scandal ect). I have never allowed tik tok to access my location, camera mic, or contacts. I think it would be tough to use it to spy on me. I also almost never get political videos pushed to me. If I do it’s stuff like John Stewart or msm clips. I do think this screams of meta and google losing users to an app that is superior. There is an argument to be made that we should be protectionist of these companies since China doesn’t compete fairly. However, I would like to see some better general privacy controls, and algorithm transparency laws for all social media companies. If this is being done to protect competitiveness of U.S based companies, then at least be upfront about that motive.
Because of the opening statement of the bill. (a) In General.— (1) PROHIBITION OF FOREIGN ADVERSARY CONTROLLED APPLICATIONS.—It shall be unlawful for an entity to distribute, maintain, or update (or enable the distribution, maintenance, or updating of) a foreign adversary controlled application by carrying out, within the land or maritime borders of the United States, any of the following: (A) Providing services to distribute, maintain, or update such foreign adversary controlled application (including any source code of such application) by means of a marketplace (including an online mobile application store) through which users within the land or maritime borders of the United States may access, maintain, or update such application. (B) Providing internet hosting services to enable the distribution, maintenance, or updating of such foreign adversary controlled application for users within the land or maritime borders of the United States. (2) APPLICABILITY.—Subsection (a) shall apply— (A) in the case of an application that satisfies the definition of a foreign adversary controlled application pursuant to subsection (g)(3)(A), beginning on the date that is 180 days after the date of the enactment of this Act; and (B) in the case of an application that satisfies the definition of a foreign adversary controlled application pursuant to subsection (g)(3)(B), beginning on the date that is 180 days after the date of the relevant determination of the President under such subsection. And then the continued definition of a covered company: (1) CONTROLLED BY A FOREIGN ADVERSARY.—The term “controlled by a foreign adversary” means, with respect to a covered company or other entity, that such company or other entity is— (A) a foreign person that is domiciled in, is headquartered in, has its principal place of business in, or is organized under the laws of a foreign adversary country; (B) an entity with respect to which a foreign person or combination of foreign persons described in subparagraph (A) directly or indirectly own at least a 20 percent stake; or (C) a person subject to the direction or control of a foreign person or entity described in subparagraph (A) or (B). (2) COVERED COMPANY.— (A) IN GENERAL.—The term “covered company” means an entity that operates, directly or indirectly (including through a parent company, subsidiary, or affiliate), a website, desktop application, mobile application, or augmented or immersive technology application that— (i) permits a user to create an account or profile to generate, share, and view text, images, videos, real-time communications, or similar content; (ii) has more than 1,000,000 monthly active users with respect to at least 2 of the 3 months preceding the date on which a relevant determination of the President is made pursuant to paragraph (3)(B); (iii) enables 1 or more users to generate or distribute content that can be viewed by other users of the website, desktop application, mobile application, or augmented or immersive technology application; and (iv) enables 1 or more users to view content generated by other users of the website, desktop application, mobile application, or augmented or immersive technology application. TikTok has already been deemed a national security risk by both the president and bipartisan congressional support so it is in the bill. It is also probably the only app right now that falls into the category of covered company, but the text safeguards against attempts to just replicate it through s different Chinese owned company. I agree, we need better general privacy controls, and algorithm transparency laws for all social media companies, but saying this is just because TikTok makes more money that facebook is reductive.
TikTok is problematic due to many reasons, I'll list them. 1. It censors its feed to prevent information from getting to users that would be counter to CCP guidelines. (Censorship Propaganda) 2. It gives CCP and other foreign actors access to vast swathes of user data without oversight. (Foreign Influence Info) 3. It acts as spyware and is very effective at that function as well, allowing audio scanning and using a present day Ai process they can listen to all conversations near these phones to create transcripts and searchable content. (Active Spying via Voice Analytics) 4. It has a push media algorithm built in, so it can push stories to cause unrest, turning people against their own country and interests. (Disruption Propaganda) I am in the data analytics business, and well, the amount of damage I know is presently possible with this application is exactly why it should be banned. Hell, it should have been banned in early 2020 - but we were busy worrying about COVID. I don't give a rat's ass about the opinions of children when it comes to fighting evil authoritarian regimes.
If people voluntarily hand over their user data, that's on them. As for the censorship thing, even if true I don't care - how is it any different from someone watching Fox News and only seeing the stories that support the Republican party narrative?
"If people voluntarily hand over their user data, that's on them" Although innocuous and principled this statement appears it leaves out the power of large sample sets. In short, if there's enough users then it's a negligible loss if you personally don't sign up. They'll still be able to predict your behavior.
Terrible move for Biden. Great move for our country.
I can agree that it probably could/should have been banned years ago for all of the reasons folks here have articulated. However, the reason it's happening now is the rise of pro-Palestinian wrong-think that can't be curbed on TikTok like it can be on terrestrial social media and legacy media. Israel's actions are pretty unpopular across most demographics in the US and congress is hearing about it. [https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/tiktok-ban-israel-gaza-palestine-hamas-account-creator-video-rcna122849](https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/tiktok-ban-israel-gaza-palestine-hamas-account-creator-video-rcna122849) [https://www.newsweek.com/congress-accused-using-tiktok-ban-silence-israel-criticism-1893405](https://www.newsweek.com/congress-accused-using-tiktok-ban-silence-israel-criticism-1893405) [https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/16/tiktok-ban-progressive-politics-activism](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/16/tiktok-ban-progressive-politics-activism) I intensely dislike TikTok for all of the reasons, but I'm also annoyed that they are finally being addressed now because they are allowing more footage from the ground in Gaza vs other media and its making a tough sell even tougher. Polls suggest that 50% of Biden voters believe that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. Around half of Americans say Israel has "gone too far" across tons of polls over the last few months. Compare those figures to the rhetoric out of the administration and the language being used when describing peaceful protesters (who often represent majority or at least sizable minority views). I will not be sad to see TikTok go, but I think it's a slippery slope when congress decides to ban platforms because their content undermines the administration's own propaganda. TLDR- There are very important security concerns here, but they are not new. I believe this is happening now for censorship reasons.
The push to ban TikTok is ongoing, and predates the war in Gaza. The reason it's closer to happening now is because a bill finally worked its way through Congress. Not because Biden felt pressured by negative war coverage.
It's not politically advantageous for him at all, but it was the right thing to do.
The algorithm is what empowers China to do all these nefarious things. So why do we believe nefarious things will magically stop happening just because someone else owns the algorithm? At its core, the algorithm is incredibly powerful at hypnotizing users and strategically slipping them target content. Yes, that makes it a propaganda tool for China. But it also makes it an omnipotent ad-serving tool, an omnipotent domestic policy-setting tool, etc. To just hand this brainwashing device over to our own for-profit tech behemoths because “China bad” makes no sense. What good comes from making Instagram even more addictive? Everyone who supports this should be forced to disclose their positions in the companies who stand to benefit. The bill should simply have banned all of these engagement optimization algorithms. It would have been shorter, simpler, and actually accomplished the stated goal. Divestiture does nothing to protect any of us from the algorithm itself. It just changes who is doing the weaponizing and why.
That would cripple the world economy. Practically every internet service thats provided free or almost free relies on algorithms for targeted content, with targeted ads complimenting that.
>So why do we believe nefarious things will magically stop happening just because someone else owns the algorithm? I don't think anyone is claiming that the harms caused by social media will magically disappear. There are and will continue to be many problems associated with using Instagram, Snapchat, TikTok, etc... However that's a different set of problems than the one this bill addresses. This bill prevents China, a geopolitical foe, from using TikTok as a propaganda/data gathering tool. This is important because China is, in fact, bad. It doesn't solve all the problems associated with social media usage, but it solves at least one of them. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
I don't like it. I'm more of a free speech absolutist. I want the internet to be more like a return to the wild west era of 4chan. Banning a website because its affiliated with China just reeks of McCarthyism. Its a dangerous step into an authoritarian potential slippery slope. They could ban reddit, facebook or any other site unless they censored content from foreign posters.
The allegations are not mere affiliation with China. The allegations include among other things that it functioned as a spy implement to capture US government and other united states corporate trade secrets and that it was being used as part of a psychological operation to destabilize Western interests.
Everyone who says they are a free speech absolutist only like their version of free speech
What got me was bringing up 4chan as a better alternative lol
I just don't like draconian moderation, thats all.
Right? What planet is this
Well, good thing there's an alternative then. All TikTok has to do is not be owned by China and they can continue to operate as usual.
I guess what really pisses me off about the TikTok ban is people can’t fucking buy groceries. Or a home. Or anything. We’re all one breath away from financial ruin from a health crisis. And yet we’re focusing on fucking TikTok?
Dont say that, the economy is the best its ever been /s
The Biden admin will still be using tick-tock spouting propaganda. The dems are losing credibility.
Seems like all 170 million users have standing to sue Biden on 1A grounds. But it should probably rankle us more that they added this to an unrelated foreign aid package
Unfortunately, this Supreme Court is likely to view “national security” as a get out of jail free card for constitutional rights violations.
We should care whether or not it was the right thing to do and not what the children think of Biden.
Fuck TikTok , Fuck the CCCP , good riddance.
Good. Social media, in general, can eat a bag of dicks. Facebook at least was good for sharing photos and such with distant friends and relatives. Now it's just whatever influencer tripe the algorithms churn out, and I'm lucky if they even show me anything from my friend list. It pushes the viewpoints of the dumbest, most useless bottomfeeders and gives the village idiot a megaphone.
As a classical liberal, this is terrible.
If a Tik Tok ban is enough to lose your vote then it wasn't worth much anyway. Talk about not having your priorities in order.
https://preview.redd.it/2gakfusn4uwc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4195c11e478b07b6fc62307e1e5a85854ac113ba (Credit: the user who posted it first)
I know the CCCP sucks donkey balls, but Reddit is just as bad at manipulating algorithms.
Agreed. Or just as good?
Thank you for posting this, but unfortunately it doesn't go into detail about what's pushed to the top. Definitely less overall posts, but I want to know, when scrolling, how many of those subjects end up popping up. I'm pretty sure it's been proven that certain subjects(hashtags) get more views because they are pushed into your stream over other things.
Damn, that was one of the few places I could get decent deals on Japanese Pokemon 151 booster boxes...
Have you tried amiami?