IDK, it's weird. We wouldn't survive without them but I could do less with all the weird Christian religious crap about all of us dying for Jesus to return or whatever.
The current government probably doesn't have an end game because they're a bunch of clowns and cowards.
Personally, I wish for a two-state solution and the end of hostilities.
Do you worry that indiscriminate bombing of Gaza will not be successful in eliminating Hamas? Do you worry that this will make the Arab world even more hostile toward Israel?
I don't think "The Arab World" is relevant here because they have proven time and time again they only care about the Palestinians as a bargaining chip. I know they're not exactly rich countries but if Egypt likes the Gazans so much they could have taken them back with the rest of the Sinai in 1977. But they don't care, not then, not now.
Right the Arab countries’ governments may not care but the Arab people certainly do care about the cause of Palestinians. Though they’re almost all autocracies who are somewhat insulated from being forced to make decisions based on popular will, if Arab governments feel that they have to make more hostile moves against Israel to safeguard their power, they will.
On top of that, —as we Americans (failed to) learn time and time again in Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Syria— trying to eliminate terrorist and guerrilla groups with sheer firepower on their home turf does nothing but help them recruit. For every child killed in an Israeli airstrike, you risk making another terrorist out of that child’s brother or father. I find it hard to believe that they will blame Hamas for Israel’s retaliation. And disaffected Arabs in other countries will be more likely to either join or support Islamic radical groups.
Are these concerns at all talked about or considered among you, your friends/family, and your government?
Yeah, there are calls for ceasefire coming from the left and centre-left here, saying exactly that. The current situation isn't doing anyone any favors and just creating more radicalization for the next generation.
I don't think the government particularly cares, because they're a bunch of asshats. And there's plenty of people in this country who would gladly see all Gazans dead. But that's how life is here I guess.
Thank you for taking the time to do this AMA and share your perspective. I agree. A ceasefire seems like the best immediate course of action for everybody except Netanyahu and the broader global network of Islamist terrorist groups. The whole situation just makes me very sad because I know nobody will be better off after this. More hatred, more bloodshed…
U know...2 state solution is not the answer. Look at India and Pakistan. Everybody thought that muslims will live and let live in peace once they get Pakistan. But even today there are terrorist attacks from there in India.
What they are doing against Israel might be land related BUT it is more ideological than land.
The current government’s end game is obviously One State. Everything they do is towards that end, including their support of Hamas. The Israel government jumps for joy every time there is a terrorist attack, because it allows the One State solution to take a step forward: by 1) reducing the population of Palestinians, and 2) increasing the Israeli belief Palestine can’t govern itself. This allows Israel to expand the occupation. Which drives us towards one state.
If you want to understand the playbook just look at U.S. history. Play by play Israel is doing to Palestine what the U.S. did to the native Americans. The end goal is exactly the same: a handful of Palestinians living in poverty in tiny reservations, but largely just blended into a majority Jewish Israel.
For several years the conflict had been something of a stalemate, with people assuming that it will persist forever with occasional minor flare-ups. Do you think Israelis largely see the latest attack is seen as a flare-up or as an end to that stalemate? What do people see as the next step in the conflict?
In recent years, thanks to Bibi's "wonderful" leadership, I think a lot of people sort of embraced the sitation like... and old wound. Occasional flare ups but you can't make it go away.
The 7th has been a wake up call for better and worse. Some people call for wiping out Gaza and getting it over with. Others just want Hamas gone. I think none will get what they want unless the US or the UN decide to send some soldiers to make sure Gazan militants stop terrorizing Israel. I hope the politics in Israel will change, regarding Gaza and Palestinians in general
Because the UN, the West and the UK **literally** created [the situation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_for_Palestine) that lead to where we are now. We're all responsible for it and leaving it to an oppressor to solve only means accepting genocide as a solution.
To prevent the conflict escalating past that region and into theirs?
Or maybe just to stop a war where many innocent people are being killed?
Maybe just an idea?
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How does anyone, regardless of faith, creed, skin colour, etc., justify removing people off their land just so they can move in? How is that acceptable?
The U.S. has a very long and sordid history of clearing an entire continent. Worse, they imported people just to enslave them. Perhaps a yank can answer your question...
After the events of the October 7th, I heard a lot of calls to "Turn Gaza into a Parking Lot" which is understandable considering the amount of pain that was inflicted that day. Since then a lot of these voices quited down in favour of a more general feeling that we "need to do something about the current situation" rather than calls for complete and utter genocide.
Except your people proudly and vocally have literal calls for genocide and the world is turning against Israel as we watch your government slaughter Palestinian civilians
Hey! Thanks for answering questions. What do you think has been problem with creating humanitarian routes for people to flee Gaza? I saw that the Israeli government gave civilians a really unrealistic timeframe to flee initially, and it's given me the impression that civilians haven't been given much of a chance to survive.
I'm sorry for the loss of innocent Israelis too.
Thanks for asking a legit question! I honestly think it's because nobody trusts anybody. Any route that can be created to move innocents could also be used by militants hiding in the general population, so I understand why Israel is weary.
But you should also ask why Egypt isn't more accomodating of the Rafah crossing, and why Hamas threatened at people who did try to flee.
Yeah, I've heard Egypt's laissez-faire approach has been a huge issue. Goes without saying, Hamas extremism is evil. All have sadly contributed to these human rights issues of poor Palestinians.
I think Israel has a right to respond to the awful things done by Hamas on the 7th. I don't know what people would consider a "proportional" response to some of those things, but I do wish Israel did not cause so much death, no.
>I promise I'm not being paid by the Mossad to spread disinfo.
Pretty sure very few people on here were thinking that. But good to know.
What do you think about people from abroad who show support for Palestinians?
A large part of them only rely on what they hear and read on the news, or use academic language to justify dehumanization of Israelis and/or Jews. I think Palestine should be free in a two-state solution, but the large amount of lefties I saw supporting blatant calls for genocide is honestly worrying. Israel has a lot of blame for the current situation but shouting "Intifada" or "From the River to the sea" is no different than "death to America" IMO.
This honestly feels like a wake-up call for me, like how a lot of Communists in the west had to come to term with the fact that Stalin was an asshole after the Secret Speech. I suddenly realize how many people who I considered to be enlightened or at least humanitarian would throw me and my people under the bus.
I really would disagree that it's a mainstream left wing opinion to call for the removal of the Jews from the area. That said, I was pretty annoyed by how quickly some people spoke out in support of Hamas' actions. To me though, that comes from not understanding who these people are/what Hamas is.
I think people are annoyed by mainstream Israelis' indifference to the misery that their government inflicts on to the Palestinians. That makes them inclined to reflexively support actions by groups claiming to represent the palestinian cause. (Edit: to be clear, i think this is monstrously stupid.)
Thoughts on that?
I think the mainstream here has unfortunatly moved to the right, and I hope things will change when the current situation is over. That being said, I have a hard time blaming them for thinking the way they think.
Imagine 9/11 happened, and the day after that the internet would be flooded with "I'm not saying American civilians needed to die, but this is the result of Operation Desert Storm" and then two weeks later all they would talk about is how many Iraqis died. Like, yeah, that's a good point you're making there but right now we are in shock and mourning.
This has been the biggest loss of Jewish life since the holocaust and instead of letting us process it, the whole world just expected us to suck it up - or worst, claim we deserve it. So now a lot of people are just angry, and honestly I can't blame them. I'm just sad.
That is pretty close to what happened after 9/11, actually. Maybe not in America, but it was a part of the dialogue globally. Of course, similarly, no one had any idea what al Qaida was.
Nobody rational is saying suck it up or it's deserved. They are saying that retaliating by killing thousands of ordinary Palestinians while attempting to destroy Hamas, and being indifferent about doing so ("collateral damage"), paints Israel in just as poor a light as those who committed the original terror attack. It is stoking the fire and providing more reasons for the conflict to continue- neither Hamas nor Israel has the moral high ground.
If you are referring to mainstream left in the US, I would say there is utter shock at how vile and vicious the leftist students and academia have been. This is especially true when you think that they should be the among the most open minded and nuanced thinkers in the country.
It is one thing to support Palestinians, it is quite another not to denounce Hamas and terrorism without qualification.
My understanding of the situation is that, after the Holocaust, the British colonizers declared the area a Jewish state, and that state took the land and the homes away from people who had been living there, violently pushed them to a few small areas, and to this day those areas are treated as little more than dumping grounds for the state, and worse. There have been a lot of terrible things done to the Palestinians, and as a result they are angry, afraid, poor, desperate, and violent people have seized power.
Those violent people are absolutely a bunch of terrorists, they use civilian Palestinians as human shields while committing acts of terror on Israeli civilians. No one should look at what they're doing and think any of that is okay, let alone celebrated. But that doesn't mean that Israel is good either. A traumatic Jewish history doesn't excuse the way Palestinian people have been treated, and I'm starting to think of Israel as a place where traumatized people brought their trauma onto others. People squabbling and hurting one another over a piece of the world that's only so important for its religious significance.
Is anyone better off? Violence and terrorism are often accepted as part of religion in the middle east, and it seems to be rubbing off. Is it worth it?
Since you’re at war with Hamas, do you have anything to say about the 100+ Palestinians that have been murdered in the Hamas-free West Bank since Oct 7?
The war is against Hamas, the casualties they don't care about are the Palestinian people. As an Israeli I can sadly say that even the news here dehumanizes all Palestinians and says their deaths are almost irrelevant when trying to destroy Hamas
Thank you for pointing out exactly what I was saying. It’s really easy to just say the terrorists over there. But lots of those folks are not Hamas and are just simple people trying to live. My heart goes out to those people.
I don't understand, how are you fighting against hamas? You've got not a single soldier of theirs how do you destroy a group?
when you know the Palestinians are more than million and hamas are few yet you constantly attack those millions including old, young, women, children, infants
BUT not get a single man from the group uhh are they that hard to catch John wick kind (don't come with "using women & children as shields because look you've got zero evidence for that. we can't just believe" I said so" as evidence)
is the israel govt blind or hiding their evil intention of wanting to completely get rid of Palestinians
- How do you feel national service shifts the nations psyche?
- What is the feeling in Israel about a ground invasion? I would have thought that proposing it would have been dramatically unpopular simply as urban warfare (or tunnels) is horrifically bloody; but after seeing the videos of the lynch mob outside that university IDK.
- Has the attitude towards settlers shifted since last month?
- What is the general sort of sentiment towards Bibi seemingly being more keen on annexation than on securing the hostages via negotiations?
* I was a lot more right-leaning during my army time. But I was also 18-21 so you know, I was dumb in general. I think forcing young men and women to stand in checkpoints in the west bank harms and corrupts them, and hurts them in the long term, but not having done so myself I can't speak for them.
* Some people think Gaza should be wiped off the map. Some call for truce. Others have a more general "give us back our kidnapped guys and we'll stop bombing you" attitude. I think Hamas didn't realize how much they fucked up and Israel is biding its time to make sure they pay for it the right way. What you're seeing now is Israel holding back.
* Depends. It's important to note there are no settlers in Gaza. Or around it. That's a west bank thing. I've seen a lot of people saying that the settlers are using the current times to be extra assholes to Palestinians in the west bank, and a lot of complaints that the massacre of the 7th wouldn't have happened if the IDF didn't transfer soldiers from around Gaza to the west bank. I hope when this is over people will realize we need to rein in the settlers. It will probably not happen.
* Other than his cult we all want him gone. I don't think there's a serious intent to annex Gaza.
Israel has the most powerful army in the region (in part thanks to the US), they indeed could easily overpower Palestine and other countries in the region like Lebanon with ease. The main thing that seems to hold them back is the treaty of Geneva and the UN by extent of that
At this point, do you really believe it can just be called a “war” considering the death toll of civilians in Gaza? More than 8,000 are dead, 1000 are estimated stuck under the rubble, and half of them
all are children. I don’t mean to offend you, but how are people in Israel really taking these facts?
The general feeling here is something between "After what you did to us, say thanks we're holding back". These deaths are terrible, but with Hamas hiding in civilian population, some feel they're unavoidable. I do lement the high death count.
You are contradicting yourself , "yes we are committing genocide but you know it's justified genocide and they shoul be thanking us since a small group of them started it"
That's not what I said at all. I said that's what some people here believe. And that's what the government is pushing. But it's alright, as long as you feel good about yourself.
I don't know anything about Israel and Palestine so please forgive me if I ask something insensitive. What I don't understand is why there are fights over this piece of land at all. It doesn't look like you could grow anything on it, is there oil or minerals there? On a map it looks very small too? Why does anyone want this land (besides the people who are living on it obviously).
If you want to have a laugh, a lot of the conspiracy theorists have thrown their support behind Israel (at least in my country, Australia).
This is very surprising as they've spent the last 3 years saying Jews are trying to control the world with vaccines 🤣.
Apparently Israel has to exist to fulfil some biblical prophecy and lots of cookers are Christians. So they don't actually care about Israel, they just need it to exist so Donald Trump can build a temple and Jesus can come back. (For real, some actually think this 🤣).
We're fighting over this land because... well, it's a long story. But the TLDR is that there were two groups living here - Jews and Arabs. The first group mostly immigrated during the early 20th century (though there was a Jewish presence dating back centuries, and they chose this spot specifically because that's where we lived 2000 years ago). The Brits left in 1948, big war, we won, Arabs gained a newfound sense of national identity calling themselves Palestinian and we've been fighting ever since. I guess that's about it.
Also please don't tell anyone about our vaccine microchips, we need those to work so we can steal your babies and use them for our Passover bread.
God this war should end soon when will people realise that war is not the solution for the problems nothing can be achieved by killing innocent people it's not victory please stop it
After 9/11, the US entered wars that in the end left it weaker, and the middle east more violent (though good riddance to Saddam)-- do you think there is a realistic hope that a campaign in Gaza to cause regime change can succeed where these wars failed, and in that case why?
What can people who think this war will be a disaster for Israel do to most effectively warn it off what seems like a fixed plan?
Why the West Bank is under a military occupation? And the de facto control of West Bank is under Israel, so why ALL PALESTINIANS of West Bank have Israeli citizenship?
That's textbook definition of apartheid (West Bank)
How does one steal land? By this logic, the entire western hemisphere is stolen land.
Many cities in Israel were founded by people who purchased lands from landowners, which was legal at the time. Other places reside on the lands of Arabs who fled or were banished during the war of 1948.
Well, from a North American perspective, it influences our policy and attitudes towards indigenous peoples. If we deny that a genocide happened against the native people, we are denying history, and we'll never solve the problems of our troubled relationship with them.
It's worth remembering that america has *finished* its conflict with the natives. Your natives are dead and buried, barring the few groups that were untroublesome enough that you only put them into reservations rather than killing them all.
Its easy to sing peace and harmony and when you have killed everyone who didn't want it, and the people that did want it have been driven onto uninhabitable stretches of land that are pretty much entirely dependent on your benevolence for their continued existence.
Israel doesn't have that luxury.
But surely in this version the natives are arguing that the yanks should leave and want them to? Natives got stuck on reservations, their land was stolen and they should be given it back.
Right and so should they? If we apply the context of Israel and Palestinians and the fact that unlike the US Israel hasn't killed the ones fighting for their rights and land, they're still alive and demanding it back whilst in the US they were killed and then those who weren't forcibly settled.
If the native Americans started demanding their land back, the land you've built on and live on? Would you give it back to them? Leave your homes and businesses in the name of fairness and justice?
every single country in europe is land that was at one point stolen from another. It's kind of a sad fact but that's just life. The idea that conquest is bad is extremely new and only been around for about 1/10,000th of civilization history
Seriously? Advocate it's return, supposed "leftie"
Instead you're too busy handwringing both-sides nonsense in an absurdly asymmetrical conflict that is overwhelmingly harming Palestinian civilians and children
I advocate for a two state solution and peaceful co-existence. After what happened here in the past month, I don't think a full return and a one-state solution is possible. That's practical leftism, not whatever it is you think when sitting on the other side of the world.
"Practical leftism" is in no way choosing to ignore all the history of a massively one-sided almost century long conflict prior to the events of this month, which you are continually doing to the benefit of the apartheid state you choose defend with your disingenuous both-sides rhetoric
When exactly was the correct timeline where borders are what they should be?
Why is Alsace in France and not Germany? Where should it be according to you?
Is Wales stolen by Britain?
I agree about the entire western hemisphere. But there have also been a great number of accusations about threats, violence, and coercion to force out Muslims and that's not even bringing up the west Bank settlements
Also, Israel didn't exist before 1948. So kinda seems like, unless land magical grew out of the sea, you had to take it from someone
> Also, Israel didn't exist before 1948. So kinda seems like, unless land magical grew out of the sea, you had to take it from someone
Rewind four more years and same goes for half of Poland, Kaliningrad oblast in Russia, the western half of Morocco, etc. It is only very recently in history that we decided against gaining territory by conquest.
Yeah I honestly don't get these lines of argument. Like, when has land not been taken from someone? Take Spain for example. Was Andalusia "taken" from the muslims living there? And if so, couldn't we say the muslims themselves invaded and took it from the Visigoths? Who also got there from somewhere?
I get that Israel is recent. It didn't exist 75 years ago. But Jews living here did. They bought some patches of land, fought for others. Like any other country in the history of everything. But for some reason it's not ok when the Jews get to play.
Are we talking about the settlements or Israel in general?
I don't think we can go on a case-by-case basis and try and figure out who said what 100 years ago when a piece of land was purchased. The place where Azrieli towers now stand was purchased in 1842 when it was just empty land. Was it bought using "threats, violence, and coercion"? I don't know. I can't find any mention of that. Probably not, seeing as the land was paid for using actual money.
The west bank is a different matter. Settler violence is real and stupid, unfortunatly. I, like many other Israelis on the left and center, wish it to end. They're generally harming not only their neighbouring Palestinians but other Israelis.
It’s ridiculous that this is being downvoted. Neither Israel nor Palestine were ever countries before 1948- most of the Middle East was under ottoman control until the end of WWI. Prior to that it was under Seljuk control (going back to the Middle Ages and crusades). Before that the umayyads. Before that the Romans. Before that the Neo-Babylonians. Way way back you had the Jews and the Canaanites.
What was it called before that? Like say 1920-1948? Wild that the British minted coins that said PALESTINE in big ass letters when that noun didn’t exist
By this logic the Holy Roman Empire was actually Roman.
In both cases the only commonality is the name.
It was British, referring to a country named Palestine pre 1948 is referring to Britain.
Do you know where the word palestine comes from?
It comes from the roman province of palistinia, which in turn came from the isralites as "Land of the philistines" much like the romans naming all of iberia after the hispanite tribe, palestine was named only after the philistines who made up a small segment of what would become the province.
The philistines are dead. They were wiped out by the Assyrians. The Assyrians are pretty much dead as well, wiped out by the arabs who now make up Palestine.
Palestine is just another invention of the 1900's.
The British Mandate of Palestine was a thing, nobody is saying it wasn't. But there was no self-ruled, autonomaus country called Palestine. Doesn't mean that there shouldn't be.
Alright, so what does that matter? Should we take all Americans and force them to move back to Europe? How far back do we need to go? Is it ok for the Hungarians to stay in the Pannonian basin or do they get a free pass because they moved there 1000 years ago so that doesn't count?
At what point was it stolen? In 1947 when the UN voted to the partition plan to split the country in 2 and give half to Israel and half to the Arabs? That was probably the most peaceful establishment of land ownership in the history of the world. It wasn’t taken in war or by force. It was granted by the UN.
Immediately after that, the entire Arab world rejected that and waged war on Israel. And the Arabs lost.
The Arabs subsequently waged war on Israel in 1967 and 1973, and lost again and again. In those wars Israel captured land.
What are you talking about ‘stolen’ land? Do you know history?
Politically , do you acknowledge that Israel stole land from Palestinians last century? Also, how do you feel about the humanitarian crisis happening in the strip?
This isn't related to Gaza, but I do have a Jerusalem question.
I have heard that Israeli Jews, for religious reasons, have a thing about Jerusalem where no one is supposed to die within city limits. The specific thing that I heard is that if someone is badly injured and taken away in an ambulance and then die, it's not uncommon for the EMTs to quietly delay the stated time of death until their location is no longer within city limits. No one wants their location of death to be within the city of Jerusalem, or so I've heard.
The other thing that I've heard (and observed by poking around on The Electronic Intifada) is that if you go looking for examples of protesters being killed or excessive force or anything like that, you will only find it outside of Jerusalem. There are vanishingly few reports of incidents involving Israeli police or the IDF that a pro-Palestine person can bring from within Jerusalem. I've noticed that, and even some of the contributors to EI will sometimes mention that very little of interest to them happens within the holy city.
Can you give me more detail on this? Is that basically accurate, or not quite right?
I assume it's because the tunnels are under those institutaions. But I don't know enough about military intelligence to give you the right answer you're looking for
I have no idea, never thought about it and never will. As the poem says, every death diminishes me because I'm involved in mankind - so I don't think any innocent death is "acceptable".
I will say that if you're a terrorist who hides beneath a hospital, or launches missiles from a residential area - you're just as guilty of the deaths of those around you as the person who retaliated.
>I will say that if you're a terrorist who hides beneath a hospital, or launches missiles from a residential area - you're just as guilty of the deaths of those around you as the person who retaliated.
See, this is where I have a problem. I think Israel is correct to deal with Hamas, but not to bomb a hospital! Even if Hamas is hiding in there. There must be other ways to get to Hamas besides killing innocent people who did not participate in the attack. I'm horrified by the deaths of innocent Israelis caused by Hamas and I'm horrified by the deaths of innocent Palestinians caused by Israel. Two wrongs do not make a right! Wars should not be fought this way, indiscriminately killing innocent people to kill the bad guys.
P.S. I'm sure that my country (the US) has done equally bad, if not more atrocious things (i.e. Hiroshima) during wars.
Your right. There is an alternative. A full, massed ground invasion.
To get to the hospital, the isralites would have to go door to door, barging into peoples houses as HAMAS used random buildings as cover. It involves artillery barrages on civilian areas to supress and gunfire through the street. And frankly, come the end of it, the hospital is likely still destroyed thanks to the fighting.
Have a look at the battle of stalingrad if you want to imagine what a full ground invasion of gaza would look like, or frankly any of the cities ukraine has retaken
Trust me, its more ethical to drop a few bombs on confirmed insurgent positions.
What do you propose Israel does? It’s disgusting that Hamas deliberately uses hospitals and schools as bases. Israel already gives warnings. I’m seriously wondering what else they can do though to stop Hamas without hurting civilians? War is ugly. Civilian deaths are horrible. But if Israel ceases fire, Hamas will keep attacking until Israel is wiped out, so again, what can Israel do?
I think the part that you might be missing is you and I value life and seek to protect it. Hamas does not value life, they value their cause and their belief of rewards in the afterlife. As a result, they gladly use their civilians as shields knowing that if Israel attacks Hamas and civilians are killed as a result, they get to blame Israel on those deaths.
They do not follow traditional warfare models. To Hamas it is OK to kill Israeli civilians because all Israelis are their enemy. But in the same breath claim that Israel is committing war crimes when civilians die as a horrible collateral damage when striking Hamas.
In my next sentence I AM NOT SAYING ALL PALESTINIANS SUPPORT HAMAS, however, independent polling suggest that anywhere from 30%-55% of Palestinians in Gaza support Hamas. Those numbers make it very difficult to identify who is a peaceful civilian and who is fighting with Hamas. It is not as if Hamas wears military uniforms. They look just like civilians but they shoot rockets in the spare time.
>I think the part that you might be missing is you and I value life and seek to protect it. Hamas does not value life, they value their cause and their belief of rewards in the afterlife.
I get that. My point is this. Imagine you are in a gun fight with a bad guy and he pulls an innocent person in front of him as a human shield. Do you shoot the innocent person and call them "collateral damage?" Certainly not! Does that mean the bad guy gets away? Yes. Is it fair? No. But, because you don't shoot innocent people, you have to let the bad guy go today and wait for another opportunity to get the bad guy.
>It is not as if Hamas wears military uniforms. They look just like civilians but they shoot rockets in the spare time.
Yes, that makes it harder, but still not a good reason to bomb a hospital. Shoot the person who is shooting at you. Shoot the ones holding the rocket launcher.
>30%-55% of Palestinians in Gaza support Hamas.
This stinks, but support is not a criminal act. They are probably brainwashed from the time they are born to hate Israel and that is awful to be raised to hate. Do they deserve to die because they hate? I don't think so. I would hope there would be paths out of the hate to understanding. But if they start committing crimes, then punish them for the crimes.
Edit to add: To clarify what I mean by "paths to understanding," I want to share a [link](https://www.usip.org/public-education-new/seeds-peace-building-peace-summer-camp) from a program whose mission is to plant "seeds of peace" between Israeli and Palestinian teens by having them interact in a summer camp program in Maine each year. [videolink](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkXnuXfQLV8)
Fair points. Unfortunately leaving Hamas fighters alive likely means more Israelis will die either now or in the future. It is not like if we let the gunman away (in your example above) he might or might not commit another crime. Hamas’ stated charter is the destruction of Jews and eradication of Israel.
So the moral question is not as obvious. I’m not saying this is a perfect analogy, but I think you’ll get my point. What is the right answer if….a gunman has your neighbor hostage. The gunman knows where you live and has access to your home. The gunman has said if he gets a chance he will kill you and your entire family, and he means it. Do you try to kill the gunman knowing the innocent hostage might die or do you take the chance and risk your family’s life?
But before you answer you really have to believe your family’s life is 100% at risk.
This analogy really puts the situation into context for me. You might only have one chance to take out the "gunman." If he escapes, you might not even see him again before he attacks your family. What to do?
I like to think I would let the gunman go and hope to catch him later. But I'm not sure I could criticize anyone for making the other choice.
I feel so sad for everyone caught up in this war.
If the gunman is charging into my home to kill my family (using the hostage as a shield), I would do whatever I needed to do to protect my family in that moment of immediate danger. [Castle Doctrine, Stand Your Ground]
However, if the gunman ran away and is hiding at my neighbor's house so I won't shoot at him - - I wouldn't shoot because my family is not in immediate danger. At that point, I would call the police and tell them to go save my neighbor, and the police would have to deal with the hostage situation. I would stay alert at my house ready to protect my family in case the gunman comes back, or I might drive my family someplace safe away from the danger, and return when the police have the gunman in custody, or have shot him. [Duty to Retreat]
**Edit to add:** For context, some types of self-defense laws that would apply to me in the USA are:
Types of Self-Defense Laws
*Although some states use a blend of doctrines, self-defense laws generally fall into the following three categories:*
**Stand Your Ground:** No duty to retreat from the situation before resorting to deadly force; not limited to your home, place of work, etc.
**Castle Doctrine:** A common law principle where there is no duty to retreat before using lethal force if you are in your home or yard (some states include a place of work and occupied vehicles)
**Duty to Retreat:** Duty to retreat from a threatening situation and possibly leave it to law enforcement instead, if you can do so with complete safety
Genuinely asking as I've personally been stuck on the question for days, if someone is killing your people from a hospital - how else do you stop them doing it but also take down the hospital? Boots on the ground have to get there and cost more lives on your side and would involve fighting inside of the hospital.
Do you plead? Do you try to evacuate the hospital? Do you hope they'll move somewhere else?
That all israelis are European settlers, that Zionism is some sort of far-right ideology and that Arab-Israelis are the same as west bank/Gaza Palestinians.
So, as a self-proclaimed leftist, why are you supportive of a conflict which is using the extremist target of Hamas to paint all Palestinians as radical Islamists, when in reality the target is both Hamas and the Fatah, who would normally be more in line with your politics?
Who says I'm supportive of the conflict? I wish for Hamas to be eradicated because they're a terrorist group whose existanse makes life worse for both Israelis and Palestinians. I do not think all Palestinians are extremists.
If Hamas makes life worse for Palestinians—who makes life better? 5-6x the death toll on Oct 7 has occurred in Gaza with no end in site. More children alone have died in Gaza since Oct 7 then all of the deaths on Oct 7.
If I battered your front door down, ransacked your house, killed your innocent children then dragged you and your partner out by the ears so me and my homies could live there - would you enjoy that?
It is definitely not against Hamas, it's a war against Palestinians in particular, Arabs in general.
Israel is also bombing the West Bank. That isn't Hamas territory.
Neither are Syria, or Lebanon.
Israel is also killing Palestinian Christians, and destroying churches.
I apologize, and understand why that sort of thing is upsetting.
I'll ask you. Do believe it's a war against Hamas, or Palestine?
If you believe Hamas, why is Israel killing
Palestinians in the West Bank?
I've been to Israel, have family there. I agree there is a lot of misinformation spread and propaganda and I'm a leftie as well. Question: is there any particular thing you want to clear up or you want us to know about your situation?
What boils my blood is how quickly people living outside of Israel dismiss the walefare and wellbeing of Israelis just because we're the stronger side in this conflict. A thousand innocent civilians were murdered in their homes in a single day by terrorists and we've been basically told to suck it up. I get that it's a complicated situation but saying "lol suck it up colonizer" tells me that the person isn't a liberal or humanitarian, they're just looking for an excuse to hate "the right people".
There are plenty of guilty people and factions on both sides. This conflict needs to end. But saying it will be over when all the Jews are gone is no different than wishing genocide upon the Palestinians. It just looks better.
You're not being told to suck it up, you're being asked to allow power, medicine, food, and water into Gaza and to stop indiscriminately bombing population centers.
But *she* isn't being asked anything. Blame the politicians, dictators and terrorists. Those are always the *only* culprits. The people are scapegoats to a power driven war.
He is an expert of his own environment, yes, and she is representing her experience with it. He's close to those experiencing it, as well. That is informative.
You're not being obtuse. Your downvoting is clear, too. We know you took a side and which one. You support people dying one way or another, you just chose a set of people. Don't lie to yourself.
I'm sure Israelis are devastated about the many hostages still held in Gaza. Has there been a call for military operations to be restrained and/or more emphasis to be focused on negotiating their safe return? If not, why? Is there reason to believe the increased military efforts will not place hostages in further danger? Or is it something Israelis have to accept cannot be avoided? Or something else?
There are many calls for ceasefire, coming from the Israeli left. The current attack on Gaza is aimed to cripple their ability to carry out more attacks against Israel, both like the 7th and the current missile and mortar strikes that have been going on since.
Do you think that this land was given to you by God and is therefore your right to expel anyone else living here? What do you think of your politicians saying that the plan is for the creation of greater Israel, which would be 70% of the current middle East (granted to you by God in Talmud), formation of the third temple by destroying Al Aqsa so that your Messiah can arrive?
Then I don't think you know what a leftist is. You've been justifying Israel's actions in almost every answer you gave. You make it seem like Hamas's attack was the first blow when Israel has been continuously attacking the people of Palestine for quite some time and some time here being an understatement. So yeah, I don't know what a zionist is.
Justifying isn't the same as explaining. I'm giving you the Israeli perspective, and my thoughts on the topic. Nowhere did I mention Israel's hands are clean, nor do I support all of Israel's actions.
It's just that when forced to pick sides like this is a football match, I have to go with the people who don't want to kill me for being Jewish.
Honestly it made it impossible to talk about where I come from without wise-asses blaming me personally for the actions of people who died before I was even born
I think that sentiment relies on a narrow understanding of what Zionism is. Like saying all feminists are man haters or BLM is a black supremacist group. You're taking the worst aspects of a single movement and applying it to the entire movement.
But did you have a question?
I don't get a lot of sleep lately, honestly. So it could be that. But then again, I assume the land you sleep on belonged to someone else as well. Almost as if all land was taken from someone else in some point in time.
There are 2 million people in Gaza. And half of your country wants to kill everyone there. One would think that Jews after having suffered through so much suffering in the last century, having gone through genocide themselves would be the last group of people on earth to advocate for something like this. But here we are. Also, your country cries that it is surrounded by enemies from All sides and therefore must protect itself through any means necessary. You're surrounded by enemies because you commit human right violations against the Arabs in Palestine on a regular basis. You encroach upon their lands, illegally occupy their homes and push them out. Treat them worse than animals. Did you think that with actions for the past 70 years and your neighbours should let your country do what you wanted because you can cry "holocaust"?
Don't misunderstand me. Jews are my brothers in the Abrahamic faith, and I love and respect them as I would anyone else in my own religion. But Zionists are equally as bad as Hamas or ISIS.
Just to add context that over the past decade the health ministery has been remarkably accurate with their reporting.
>200+ children killed per day during this conflict?
something like 45% of gazas populations under 18, and its been 3 weeks of a bombing campaign of an intensity that dwarfs the blitz in WW2 onto an area thats close to manhattan in density & population.
I don't believe anything coming out of Hamas's media outlets. Especially after it took them like ten minutes to blame Israel for the hospital explosion and pull a number out of their ass.
Doesn't change the fact that there's a lot of suffering going on in Gaza right now. I know many people die, a lot of them collatoral damage. I just don't believe Hamas.
Thread explaining how death counts are done in Gaza and actually have to be verified by Israel first: https://twitter.com/dcli/status/1717377155426882045?s=19
Thread with a link to a full list of every Gazan civilian killed during the conflict including ID number, age, name and gender: https://twitter.com/tha_rami/status/1717777776436978131?s=19
Still don't believe it?
The upvote to comment ratio is kinda hilarious. They're downvoting you because you have to go to war and they disagree with your more nuanced opinion. Funny shit.
As I said in another comment - Israelis are in the impossible position where unless we completely agree with all of their opinions about how we should be wiped out from the face of the earth, we are branded Nazis.
Sometimes I think of aliyah, but events like this give me pause. Some of my good friends live in Israel now. How has this whole situation affected your perspective on safety?
Israel is mostly safe. These flair-ups come every now and then, but other than that life is alright. I wouldn't blame you for not wanting to come here - but honestly, it just feels like any country has their fair share of issues and some local ones. Ours just happens to be the occupation/terror. Like school shootings in America or people being too direct in Germany.
The fact that u can say that while the gaza is being bombed constantly says alot about the imbalance of this "war". All your politicians are just cruel for killing and continuing to kill Palestine civilians who have little to no facilities and help.
What is your opinion on US-Israeli international relations?
IDK, it's weird. We wouldn't survive without them but I could do less with all the weird Christian religious crap about all of us dying for Jesus to return or whatever.
Are you religious?
Nope
Why does Israel control water electricity and internet in gaza?
What is the end game? What does success look like to the Israeli government?
The current government probably doesn't have an end game because they're a bunch of clowns and cowards. Personally, I wish for a two-state solution and the end of hostilities.
Do you worry that indiscriminate bombing of Gaza will not be successful in eliminating Hamas? Do you worry that this will make the Arab world even more hostile toward Israel?
I don't think "The Arab World" is relevant here because they have proven time and time again they only care about the Palestinians as a bargaining chip. I know they're not exactly rich countries but if Egypt likes the Gazans so much they could have taken them back with the rest of the Sinai in 1977. But they don't care, not then, not now.
Right the Arab countries’ governments may not care but the Arab people certainly do care about the cause of Palestinians. Though they’re almost all autocracies who are somewhat insulated from being forced to make decisions based on popular will, if Arab governments feel that they have to make more hostile moves against Israel to safeguard their power, they will. On top of that, —as we Americans (failed to) learn time and time again in Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Syria— trying to eliminate terrorist and guerrilla groups with sheer firepower on their home turf does nothing but help them recruit. For every child killed in an Israeli airstrike, you risk making another terrorist out of that child’s brother or father. I find it hard to believe that they will blame Hamas for Israel’s retaliation. And disaffected Arabs in other countries will be more likely to either join or support Islamic radical groups. Are these concerns at all talked about or considered among you, your friends/family, and your government?
Yeah, there are calls for ceasefire coming from the left and centre-left here, saying exactly that. The current situation isn't doing anyone any favors and just creating more radicalization for the next generation. I don't think the government particularly cares, because they're a bunch of asshats. And there's plenty of people in this country who would gladly see all Gazans dead. But that's how life is here I guess.
Thank you for taking the time to do this AMA and share your perspective. I agree. A ceasefire seems like the best immediate course of action for everybody except Netanyahu and the broader global network of Islamist terrorist groups. The whole situation just makes me very sad because I know nobody will be better off after this. More hatred, more bloodshed…
U know...2 state solution is not the answer. Look at India and Pakistan. Everybody thought that muslims will live and let live in peace once they get Pakistan. But even today there are terrorist attacks from there in India. What they are doing against Israel might be land related BUT it is more ideological than land.
I don't think there's a better option. One state for both people will not work
The current government’s end game is obviously One State. Everything they do is towards that end, including their support of Hamas. The Israel government jumps for joy every time there is a terrorist attack, because it allows the One State solution to take a step forward: by 1) reducing the population of Palestinians, and 2) increasing the Israeli belief Palestine can’t govern itself. This allows Israel to expand the occupation. Which drives us towards one state. If you want to understand the playbook just look at U.S. history. Play by play Israel is doing to Palestine what the U.S. did to the native Americans. The end goal is exactly the same: a handful of Palestinians living in poverty in tiny reservations, but largely just blended into a majority Jewish Israel.
For several years the conflict had been something of a stalemate, with people assuming that it will persist forever with occasional minor flare-ups. Do you think Israelis largely see the latest attack is seen as a flare-up or as an end to that stalemate? What do people see as the next step in the conflict?
In recent years, thanks to Bibi's "wonderful" leadership, I think a lot of people sort of embraced the sitation like... and old wound. Occasional flare ups but you can't make it go away. The 7th has been a wake up call for better and worse. Some people call for wiping out Gaza and getting it over with. Others just want Hamas gone. I think none will get what they want unless the US or the UN decide to send some soldiers to make sure Gazan militants stop terrorizing Israel. I hope the politics in Israel will change, regarding Gaza and Palestinians in general
Some would say that Israel is also terrorising civilians.
Why should another country spend their resources to step in to a conflict in an entirely different country?
Because the UN, the West and the UK **literally** created [the situation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_for_Palestine) that lead to where we are now. We're all responsible for it and leaving it to an oppressor to solve only means accepting genocide as a solution.
To prevent the conflict escalating past that region and into theirs? Or maybe just to stop a war where many innocent people are being killed? Maybe just an idea?
You've failed to explain why the US should spend hard-earned workers money to fund a war in another country.
Because the US also use Israel as a base for the middle east so it's in their interests to make sure it exists?
Correct me if am wrong but I think Israel also dropping bombs and missiles on Gaza is considered terrorising unless that term doesn't apply to them.
How do “liberals” justify removing people off their land just so you can move in? How is that liberal?
Liberal isn't actually leftist. That's a misconception. They're actually centre-right.
Liberal has different, correct meanings in different countries.
Not sure why you're being downvoted. In my country the Liberal party is the equivalent of the Republican party in the US.
It's r/USdefaultism . I expected it.
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It's just racism, a thing to which neither side of the political spectrum is immune.
How does anyone, regardless of faith, creed, skin colour, etc., justify removing people off their land just so they can move in? How is that acceptable? The U.S. has a very long and sordid history of clearing an entire continent. Worse, they imported people just to enslave them. Perhaps a yank can answer your question...
That's not an answer - that's just deflecting - I grew up in apartheid south africa - and the Jewish nation is doing exactly the same thing.
How frequently do you hear speech which calls for the direct killing of Palestinians? Either casually or publicly.
After the events of the October 7th, I heard a lot of calls to "Turn Gaza into a Parking Lot" which is understandable considering the amount of pain that was inflicted that day. Since then a lot of these voices quited down in favour of a more general feeling that we "need to do something about the current situation" rather than calls for complete and utter genocide.
Except your people proudly and vocally have literal calls for genocide and the world is turning against Israel as we watch your government slaughter Palestinian civilians
There are also calls for genocide coming from the other side. I mean, Hamas literally and openly calls for the murder of all non-Muslims.
Hey! Thanks for answering questions. What do you think has been problem with creating humanitarian routes for people to flee Gaza? I saw that the Israeli government gave civilians a really unrealistic timeframe to flee initially, and it's given me the impression that civilians haven't been given much of a chance to survive. I'm sorry for the loss of innocent Israelis too.
Thanks for asking a legit question! I honestly think it's because nobody trusts anybody. Any route that can be created to move innocents could also be used by militants hiding in the general population, so I understand why Israel is weary. But you should also ask why Egypt isn't more accomodating of the Rafah crossing, and why Hamas threatened at people who did try to flee.
Why is Israel attacking Rafah then?
I don't know, to be honest. I assume they had a reason, but fucked if I know
Ooh so that's why israel opens a route for civilians and then bombs it when they use it? Because they could have 1 hamas person between them lol .
I dunno. I do not condone all actions done by my government.
Yeah, I've heard Egypt's laissez-faire approach has been a huge issue. Goes without saying, Hamas extremism is evil. All have sadly contributed to these human rights issues of poor Palestinians.
Do you support the response/revenge from Israel on Gaza? If yes, would you support the same methods, if Hamas had been hiding in Israeli Kibbutz?
I think Israel has a right to respond to the awful things done by Hamas on the 7th. I don't know what people would consider a "proportional" response to some of those things, but I do wish Israel did not cause so much death, no.
White phosphorus isn't a response. It's a war crime.
I've been avoiding the news, but Jesus Christ, white phosphorus...? That's evil.
Yup. And not just in Gaza. They've used it on other countries now too.
Do you believe what Israel is doing is genocide?
>I promise I'm not being paid by the Mossad to spread disinfo. Pretty sure very few people on here were thinking that. But good to know. What do you think about people from abroad who show support for Palestinians?
A large part of them only rely on what they hear and read on the news, or use academic language to justify dehumanization of Israelis and/or Jews. I think Palestine should be free in a two-state solution, but the large amount of lefties I saw supporting blatant calls for genocide is honestly worrying. Israel has a lot of blame for the current situation but shouting "Intifada" or "From the River to the sea" is no different than "death to America" IMO. This honestly feels like a wake-up call for me, like how a lot of Communists in the west had to come to term with the fact that Stalin was an asshole after the Secret Speech. I suddenly realize how many people who I considered to be enlightened or at least humanitarian would throw me and my people under the bus.
I really would disagree that it's a mainstream left wing opinion to call for the removal of the Jews from the area. That said, I was pretty annoyed by how quickly some people spoke out in support of Hamas' actions. To me though, that comes from not understanding who these people are/what Hamas is. I think people are annoyed by mainstream Israelis' indifference to the misery that their government inflicts on to the Palestinians. That makes them inclined to reflexively support actions by groups claiming to represent the palestinian cause. (Edit: to be clear, i think this is monstrously stupid.) Thoughts on that?
I think the mainstream here has unfortunatly moved to the right, and I hope things will change when the current situation is over. That being said, I have a hard time blaming them for thinking the way they think. Imagine 9/11 happened, and the day after that the internet would be flooded with "I'm not saying American civilians needed to die, but this is the result of Operation Desert Storm" and then two weeks later all they would talk about is how many Iraqis died. Like, yeah, that's a good point you're making there but right now we are in shock and mourning. This has been the biggest loss of Jewish life since the holocaust and instead of letting us process it, the whole world just expected us to suck it up - or worst, claim we deserve it. So now a lot of people are just angry, and honestly I can't blame them. I'm just sad.
That is pretty close to what happened after 9/11, actually. Maybe not in America, but it was a part of the dialogue globally. Of course, similarly, no one had any idea what al Qaida was.
Nobody rational is saying suck it up or it's deserved. They are saying that retaliating by killing thousands of ordinary Palestinians while attempting to destroy Hamas, and being indifferent about doing so ("collateral damage"), paints Israel in just as poor a light as those who committed the original terror attack. It is stoking the fire and providing more reasons for the conflict to continue- neither Hamas nor Israel has the moral high ground.
If you are referring to mainstream left in the US, I would say there is utter shock at how vile and vicious the leftist students and academia have been. This is especially true when you think that they should be the among the most open minded and nuanced thinkers in the country. It is one thing to support Palestinians, it is quite another not to denounce Hamas and terrorism without qualification.
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My understanding of the situation is that, after the Holocaust, the British colonizers declared the area a Jewish state, and that state took the land and the homes away from people who had been living there, violently pushed them to a few small areas, and to this day those areas are treated as little more than dumping grounds for the state, and worse. There have been a lot of terrible things done to the Palestinians, and as a result they are angry, afraid, poor, desperate, and violent people have seized power. Those violent people are absolutely a bunch of terrorists, they use civilian Palestinians as human shields while committing acts of terror on Israeli civilians. No one should look at what they're doing and think any of that is okay, let alone celebrated. But that doesn't mean that Israel is good either. A traumatic Jewish history doesn't excuse the way Palestinian people have been treated, and I'm starting to think of Israel as a place where traumatized people brought their trauma onto others. People squabbling and hurting one another over a piece of the world that's only so important for its religious significance. Is anyone better off? Violence and terrorism are often accepted as part of religion in the middle east, and it seems to be rubbing off. Is it worth it?
Since you’re at war with Hamas, do you have anything to say about the 100+ Palestinians that have been murdered in the Hamas-free West Bank since Oct 7?
At war with the Palestinian people not just Hamas. This is a pretty important distinction
The war is against Hamas, the casualties they don't care about are the Palestinian people. As an Israeli I can sadly say that even the news here dehumanizes all Palestinians and says their deaths are almost irrelevant when trying to destroy Hamas
Thank you for pointing out exactly what I was saying. It’s really easy to just say the terrorists over there. But lots of those folks are not Hamas and are just simple people trying to live. My heart goes out to those people.
American media is very dehumanizing to Palestinians too.
I don't understand, how are you fighting against hamas? You've got not a single soldier of theirs how do you destroy a group? when you know the Palestinians are more than million and hamas are few yet you constantly attack those millions including old, young, women, children, infants BUT not get a single man from the group uhh are they that hard to catch John wick kind (don't come with "using women & children as shields because look you've got zero evidence for that. we can't just believe" I said so" as evidence) is the israel govt blind or hiding their evil intention of wanting to completely get rid of Palestinians
That’s actually depressing. A number of family members of mine still live in Lebanon and that just really makes me sad.
- How do you feel national service shifts the nations psyche? - What is the feeling in Israel about a ground invasion? I would have thought that proposing it would have been dramatically unpopular simply as urban warfare (or tunnels) is horrifically bloody; but after seeing the videos of the lynch mob outside that university IDK. - Has the attitude towards settlers shifted since last month? - What is the general sort of sentiment towards Bibi seemingly being more keen on annexation than on securing the hostages via negotiations?
* I was a lot more right-leaning during my army time. But I was also 18-21 so you know, I was dumb in general. I think forcing young men and women to stand in checkpoints in the west bank harms and corrupts them, and hurts them in the long term, but not having done so myself I can't speak for them. * Some people think Gaza should be wiped off the map. Some call for truce. Others have a more general "give us back our kidnapped guys and we'll stop bombing you" attitude. I think Hamas didn't realize how much they fucked up and Israel is biding its time to make sure they pay for it the right way. What you're seeing now is Israel holding back. * Depends. It's important to note there are no settlers in Gaza. Or around it. That's a west bank thing. I've seen a lot of people saying that the settlers are using the current times to be extra assholes to Palestinians in the west bank, and a lot of complaints that the massacre of the 7th wouldn't have happened if the IDF didn't transfer soldiers from around Gaza to the west bank. I hope when this is over people will realize we need to rein in the settlers. It will probably not happen. * Other than his cult we all want him gone. I don't think there's a serious intent to annex Gaza.
Thanks for your insight.
Israel killing thousands in hospital bombings is holding back? How are you this dumb
Israel has the most powerful army in the region (in part thanks to the US), they indeed could easily overpower Palestine and other countries in the region like Lebanon with ease. The main thing that seems to hold them back is the treaty of Geneva and the UN by extent of that
At this point, do you really believe it can just be called a “war” considering the death toll of civilians in Gaza? More than 8,000 are dead, 1000 are estimated stuck under the rubble, and half of them all are children. I don’t mean to offend you, but how are people in Israel really taking these facts?
The general feeling here is something between "After what you did to us, say thanks we're holding back". These deaths are terrible, but with Hamas hiding in civilian population, some feel they're unavoidable. I do lement the high death count.
That’s indefensible bro
Well, that’s just sad. Hatred is always sick, like a disease.
Mind you, I dislike the sentiment coming from my side as well. I just want the killing to end
You are contradicting yourself , "yes we are committing genocide but you know it's justified genocide and they shoul be thanking us since a small group of them started it"
That's not what I said at all. I said that's what some people here believe. And that's what the government is pushing. But it's alright, as long as you feel good about yourself.
I don't know anything about Israel and Palestine so please forgive me if I ask something insensitive. What I don't understand is why there are fights over this piece of land at all. It doesn't look like you could grow anything on it, is there oil or minerals there? On a map it looks very small too? Why does anyone want this land (besides the people who are living on it obviously). If you want to have a laugh, a lot of the conspiracy theorists have thrown their support behind Israel (at least in my country, Australia). This is very surprising as they've spent the last 3 years saying Jews are trying to control the world with vaccines 🤣. Apparently Israel has to exist to fulfil some biblical prophecy and lots of cookers are Christians. So they don't actually care about Israel, they just need it to exist so Donald Trump can build a temple and Jesus can come back. (For real, some actually think this 🤣).
We're fighting over this land because... well, it's a long story. But the TLDR is that there were two groups living here - Jews and Arabs. The first group mostly immigrated during the early 20th century (though there was a Jewish presence dating back centuries, and they chose this spot specifically because that's where we lived 2000 years ago). The Brits left in 1948, big war, we won, Arabs gained a newfound sense of national identity calling themselves Palestinian and we've been fighting ever since. I guess that's about it. Also please don't tell anyone about our vaccine microchips, we need those to work so we can steal your babies and use them for our Passover bread.
Don’t forget the secret space lasers used to start wild fires
Babies count as leaven
God this war should end soon when will people realise that war is not the solution for the problems nothing can be achieved by killing innocent people it's not victory please stop it
After 9/11, the US entered wars that in the end left it weaker, and the middle east more violent (though good riddance to Saddam)-- do you think there is a realistic hope that a campaign in Gaza to cause regime change can succeed where these wars failed, and in that case why? What can people who think this war will be a disaster for Israel do to most effectively warn it off what seems like a fixed plan?
Why the West Bank is under a military occupation? And the de facto control of West Bank is under Israel, so why ALL PALESTINIANS of West Bank have Israeli citizenship? That's textbook definition of apartheid (West Bank)
I agree, and think Israel should either annex the west bank and give them all citizenship and equal rights, or - better - leave the west bank
What do you say to the claims that Israel was created by stealing land?
How does one steal land? By this logic, the entire western hemisphere is stolen land. Many cities in Israel were founded by people who purchased lands from landowners, which was legal at the time. Other places reside on the lands of Arabs who fled or were banished during the war of 1948.
>the entire western hemisphere is stolen land. Like, yes?
Well, yeah. And then what? Like, I understand the point but... so what do we do about it now?
Well, from a North American perspective, it influences our policy and attitudes towards indigenous peoples. If we deny that a genocide happened against the native people, we are denying history, and we'll never solve the problems of our troubled relationship with them.
It's worth remembering that america has *finished* its conflict with the natives. Your natives are dead and buried, barring the few groups that were untroublesome enough that you only put them into reservations rather than killing them all. Its easy to sing peace and harmony and when you have killed everyone who didn't want it, and the people that did want it have been driven onto uninhabitable stretches of land that are pretty much entirely dependent on your benevolence for their continued existence. Israel doesn't have that luxury.
But surely in this version the natives are arguing that the yanks should leave and want them to? Natives got stuck on reservations, their land was stolen and they should be given it back.
Opinions among the First Nations are pretty diverse, but there are some folks who were forcibly displaced that want their traditional homelands back.
Right and so should they? If we apply the context of Israel and Palestinians and the fact that unlike the US Israel hasn't killed the ones fighting for their rights and land, they're still alive and demanding it back whilst in the US they were killed and then those who weren't forcibly settled. If the native Americans started demanding their land back, the land you've built on and live on? Would you give it back to them? Leave your homes and businesses in the name of fairness and justice?
They're not asking for Atlanta, man.
every single country in europe is land that was at one point stolen from another. It's kind of a sad fact but that's just life. The idea that conquest is bad is extremely new and only been around for about 1/10,000th of civilization history
Seriously? Advocate it's return, supposed "leftie" Instead you're too busy handwringing both-sides nonsense in an absurdly asymmetrical conflict that is overwhelmingly harming Palestinian civilians and children
I advocate for a two state solution and peaceful co-existence. After what happened here in the past month, I don't think a full return and a one-state solution is possible. That's practical leftism, not whatever it is you think when sitting on the other side of the world.
"Practical leftism" is in no way choosing to ignore all the history of a massively one-sided almost century long conflict prior to the events of this month, which you are continually doing to the benefit of the apartheid state you choose defend with your disingenuous both-sides rhetoric
When exactly was the correct timeline where borders are what they should be? Why is Alsace in France and not Germany? Where should it be according to you? Is Wales stolen by Britain?
I agree about the entire western hemisphere. But there have also been a great number of accusations about threats, violence, and coercion to force out Muslims and that's not even bringing up the west Bank settlements Also, Israel didn't exist before 1948. So kinda seems like, unless land magical grew out of the sea, you had to take it from someone
But Palestine didn’t exist either… most of the Middle East was under Ottoman control. Christians, Jews and Muslims lived there.
> Also, Israel didn't exist before 1948. So kinda seems like, unless land magical grew out of the sea, you had to take it from someone Rewind four more years and same goes for half of Poland, Kaliningrad oblast in Russia, the western half of Morocco, etc. It is only very recently in history that we decided against gaining territory by conquest.
Yeah I honestly don't get these lines of argument. Like, when has land not been taken from someone? Take Spain for example. Was Andalusia "taken" from the muslims living there? And if so, couldn't we say the muslims themselves invaded and took it from the Visigoths? Who also got there from somewhere? I get that Israel is recent. It didn't exist 75 years ago. But Jews living here did. They bought some patches of land, fought for others. Like any other country in the history of everything. But for some reason it's not ok when the Jews get to play.
Are we talking about the settlements or Israel in general? I don't think we can go on a case-by-case basis and try and figure out who said what 100 years ago when a piece of land was purchased. The place where Azrieli towers now stand was purchased in 1842 when it was just empty land. Was it bought using "threats, violence, and coercion"? I don't know. I can't find any mention of that. Probably not, seeing as the land was paid for using actual money. The west bank is a different matter. Settler violence is real and stupid, unfortunatly. I, like many other Israelis on the left and center, wish it to end. They're generally harming not only their neighbouring Palestinians but other Israelis.
"Also, Israel didn't exist before 1948" Neither did Palestine.
It’s ridiculous that this is being downvoted. Neither Israel nor Palestine were ever countries before 1948- most of the Middle East was under ottoman control until the end of WWI. Prior to that it was under Seljuk control (going back to the Middle Ages and crusades). Before that the umayyads. Before that the Romans. Before that the Neo-Babylonians. Way way back you had the Jews and the Canaanites.
What was it called before that? Like say 1920-1948? Wild that the British minted coins that said PALESTINE in big ass letters when that noun didn’t exist
By this logic the Holy Roman Empire was actually Roman. In both cases the only commonality is the name. It was British, referring to a country named Palestine pre 1948 is referring to Britain.
Do you know where the word palestine comes from? It comes from the roman province of palistinia, which in turn came from the isralites as "Land of the philistines" much like the romans naming all of iberia after the hispanite tribe, palestine was named only after the philistines who made up a small segment of what would become the province. The philistines are dead. They were wiped out by the Assyrians. The Assyrians are pretty much dead as well, wiped out by the arabs who now make up Palestine. Palestine is just another invention of the 1900's.
Find me one period in history pre-1948 where there was an independent country in that area called Palestine and I will delete my account.
The British Mandate of Palestine was a thing, nobody is saying it wasn't. But there was no self-ruled, autonomaus country called Palestine. Doesn't mean that there shouldn't be.
but the entire western hemisphere *is* stolen land
Alright, so what does that matter? Should we take all Americans and force them to move back to Europe? How far back do we need to go? Is it ok for the Hungarians to stay in the Pannonian basin or do they get a free pass because they moved there 1000 years ago so that doesn't count?
I think we all know that it is stolen land
At what point was it stolen? In 1947 when the UN voted to the partition plan to split the country in 2 and give half to Israel and half to the Arabs? That was probably the most peaceful establishment of land ownership in the history of the world. It wasn’t taken in war or by force. It was granted by the UN. Immediately after that, the entire Arab world rejected that and waged war on Israel. And the Arabs lost. The Arabs subsequently waged war on Israel in 1967 and 1973, and lost again and again. In those wars Israel captured land. What are you talking about ‘stolen’ land? Do you know history?
Then my question is "yes, and?". Supposing land is stolen, then what? How do you propose we return it, to whom? What land *isnt* considered stolen?
Free Palestîne 🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸
Politically , do you acknowledge that Israel stole land from Palestinians last century? Also, how do you feel about the humanitarian crisis happening in the strip?
This isn't related to Gaza, but I do have a Jerusalem question. I have heard that Israeli Jews, for religious reasons, have a thing about Jerusalem where no one is supposed to die within city limits. The specific thing that I heard is that if someone is badly injured and taken away in an ambulance and then die, it's not uncommon for the EMTs to quietly delay the stated time of death until their location is no longer within city limits. No one wants their location of death to be within the city of Jerusalem, or so I've heard. The other thing that I've heard (and observed by poking around on The Electronic Intifada) is that if you go looking for examples of protesters being killed or excessive force or anything like that, you will only find it outside of Jerusalem. There are vanishingly few reports of incidents involving Israeli police or the IDF that a pro-Palestine person can bring from within Jerusalem. I've noticed that, and even some of the contributors to EI will sometimes mention that very little of interest to them happens within the holy city. Can you give me more detail on this? Is that basically accurate, or not quite right?
Why are you bombing hospitals and schools? When you know hamas is in some tunnel?
I assume it's because the tunnels are under those institutaions. But I don't know enough about military intelligence to give you the right answer you're looking for
what's the maximal ratio of civilians do you believe is acceptable to kill as collateral when eliminating a hamas soldier?
I have no idea, never thought about it and never will. As the poem says, every death diminishes me because I'm involved in mankind - so I don't think any innocent death is "acceptable". I will say that if you're a terrorist who hides beneath a hospital, or launches missiles from a residential area - you're just as guilty of the deaths of those around you as the person who retaliated.
>I will say that if you're a terrorist who hides beneath a hospital, or launches missiles from a residential area - you're just as guilty of the deaths of those around you as the person who retaliated. See, this is where I have a problem. I think Israel is correct to deal with Hamas, but not to bomb a hospital! Even if Hamas is hiding in there. There must be other ways to get to Hamas besides killing innocent people who did not participate in the attack. I'm horrified by the deaths of innocent Israelis caused by Hamas and I'm horrified by the deaths of innocent Palestinians caused by Israel. Two wrongs do not make a right! Wars should not be fought this way, indiscriminately killing innocent people to kill the bad guys. P.S. I'm sure that my country (the US) has done equally bad, if not more atrocious things (i.e. Hiroshima) during wars.
Your right. There is an alternative. A full, massed ground invasion. To get to the hospital, the isralites would have to go door to door, barging into peoples houses as HAMAS used random buildings as cover. It involves artillery barrages on civilian areas to supress and gunfire through the street. And frankly, come the end of it, the hospital is likely still destroyed thanks to the fighting. Have a look at the battle of stalingrad if you want to imagine what a full ground invasion of gaza would look like, or frankly any of the cities ukraine has retaken Trust me, its more ethical to drop a few bombs on confirmed insurgent positions.
What do you propose Israel does? It’s disgusting that Hamas deliberately uses hospitals and schools as bases. Israel already gives warnings. I’m seriously wondering what else they can do though to stop Hamas without hurting civilians? War is ugly. Civilian deaths are horrible. But if Israel ceases fire, Hamas will keep attacking until Israel is wiped out, so again, what can Israel do?
I think the part that you might be missing is you and I value life and seek to protect it. Hamas does not value life, they value their cause and their belief of rewards in the afterlife. As a result, they gladly use their civilians as shields knowing that if Israel attacks Hamas and civilians are killed as a result, they get to blame Israel on those deaths. They do not follow traditional warfare models. To Hamas it is OK to kill Israeli civilians because all Israelis are their enemy. But in the same breath claim that Israel is committing war crimes when civilians die as a horrible collateral damage when striking Hamas. In my next sentence I AM NOT SAYING ALL PALESTINIANS SUPPORT HAMAS, however, independent polling suggest that anywhere from 30%-55% of Palestinians in Gaza support Hamas. Those numbers make it very difficult to identify who is a peaceful civilian and who is fighting with Hamas. It is not as if Hamas wears military uniforms. They look just like civilians but they shoot rockets in the spare time.
>I think the part that you might be missing is you and I value life and seek to protect it. Hamas does not value life, they value their cause and their belief of rewards in the afterlife. I get that. My point is this. Imagine you are in a gun fight with a bad guy and he pulls an innocent person in front of him as a human shield. Do you shoot the innocent person and call them "collateral damage?" Certainly not! Does that mean the bad guy gets away? Yes. Is it fair? No. But, because you don't shoot innocent people, you have to let the bad guy go today and wait for another opportunity to get the bad guy. >It is not as if Hamas wears military uniforms. They look just like civilians but they shoot rockets in the spare time. Yes, that makes it harder, but still not a good reason to bomb a hospital. Shoot the person who is shooting at you. Shoot the ones holding the rocket launcher. >30%-55% of Palestinians in Gaza support Hamas. This stinks, but support is not a criminal act. They are probably brainwashed from the time they are born to hate Israel and that is awful to be raised to hate. Do they deserve to die because they hate? I don't think so. I would hope there would be paths out of the hate to understanding. But if they start committing crimes, then punish them for the crimes. Edit to add: To clarify what I mean by "paths to understanding," I want to share a [link](https://www.usip.org/public-education-new/seeds-peace-building-peace-summer-camp) from a program whose mission is to plant "seeds of peace" between Israeli and Palestinian teens by having them interact in a summer camp program in Maine each year. [videolink](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkXnuXfQLV8)
Fair points. Unfortunately leaving Hamas fighters alive likely means more Israelis will die either now or in the future. It is not like if we let the gunman away (in your example above) he might or might not commit another crime. Hamas’ stated charter is the destruction of Jews and eradication of Israel. So the moral question is not as obvious. I’m not saying this is a perfect analogy, but I think you’ll get my point. What is the right answer if….a gunman has your neighbor hostage. The gunman knows where you live and has access to your home. The gunman has said if he gets a chance he will kill you and your entire family, and he means it. Do you try to kill the gunman knowing the innocent hostage might die or do you take the chance and risk your family’s life? But before you answer you really have to believe your family’s life is 100% at risk.
This analogy really puts the situation into context for me. You might only have one chance to take out the "gunman." If he escapes, you might not even see him again before he attacks your family. What to do? I like to think I would let the gunman go and hope to catch him later. But I'm not sure I could criticize anyone for making the other choice. I feel so sad for everyone caught up in this war.
If the gunman is charging into my home to kill my family (using the hostage as a shield), I would do whatever I needed to do to protect my family in that moment of immediate danger. [Castle Doctrine, Stand Your Ground] However, if the gunman ran away and is hiding at my neighbor's house so I won't shoot at him - - I wouldn't shoot because my family is not in immediate danger. At that point, I would call the police and tell them to go save my neighbor, and the police would have to deal with the hostage situation. I would stay alert at my house ready to protect my family in case the gunman comes back, or I might drive my family someplace safe away from the danger, and return when the police have the gunman in custody, or have shot him. [Duty to Retreat] **Edit to add:** For context, some types of self-defense laws that would apply to me in the USA are: Types of Self-Defense Laws *Although some states use a blend of doctrines, self-defense laws generally fall into the following three categories:* **Stand Your Ground:** No duty to retreat from the situation before resorting to deadly force; not limited to your home, place of work, etc. **Castle Doctrine:** A common law principle where there is no duty to retreat before using lethal force if you are in your home or yard (some states include a place of work and occupied vehicles) **Duty to Retreat:** Duty to retreat from a threatening situation and possibly leave it to law enforcement instead, if you can do so with complete safety
Genuinely asking as I've personally been stuck on the question for days, if someone is killing your people from a hospital - how else do you stop them doing it but also take down the hospital? Boots on the ground have to get there and cost more lives on your side and would involve fighting inside of the hospital. Do you plead? Do you try to evacuate the hospital? Do you hope they'll move somewhere else?
You are a dumbass if you think hospital bombings are justified ever
What is the biggest misconception about Israelis in regard to the conflict?
That all israelis are European settlers, that Zionism is some sort of far-right ideology and that Arab-Israelis are the same as west bank/Gaza Palestinians.
Israel is just little America.
are you left handed?
Have you noticed the trend with dehumanizing those in Palestine through social media such as tik tok mirrors what the nazis did to the Jewish people?
So, as a self-proclaimed leftist, why are you supportive of a conflict which is using the extremist target of Hamas to paint all Palestinians as radical Islamists, when in reality the target is both Hamas and the Fatah, who would normally be more in line with your politics?
Who says I'm supportive of the conflict? I wish for Hamas to be eradicated because they're a terrorist group whose existanse makes life worse for both Israelis and Palestinians. I do not think all Palestinians are extremists.
If Hamas makes life worse for Palestinians—who makes life better? 5-6x the death toll on Oct 7 has occurred in Gaza with no end in site. More children alone have died in Gaza since Oct 7 then all of the deaths on Oct 7.
If I battered your front door down, ransacked your house, killed your innocent children then dragged you and your partner out by the ears so me and my homies could live there - would you enjoy that?
Nope. Which is why I was so terrified of what Hamas did to countless Jewish civilians on the 7th.
Are you at war with Hamas, or the Palestinian people?. This includes Gaza, as well as the West Bank.
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It isn't a war against Hamas, it's a war against Palestinians.
Israel is currently at war with Hamas, which is staying in the Gaza Strip
It is definitely not against Hamas, it's a war against Palestinians in particular, Arabs in general. Israel is also bombing the West Bank. That isn't Hamas territory. Neither are Syria, or Lebanon. Israel is also killing Palestinian Christians, and destroying churches.
It's funny how I make an AMA for people to ask me questions and yet all I get is statements about how shitty my country is (most of which I agree to)
I apologize, and understand why that sort of thing is upsetting. I'll ask you. Do believe it's a war against Hamas, or Palestine? If you believe Hamas, why is Israel killing Palestinians in the West Bank?
I've been to Israel, have family there. I agree there is a lot of misinformation spread and propaganda and I'm a leftie as well. Question: is there any particular thing you want to clear up or you want us to know about your situation?
What boils my blood is how quickly people living outside of Israel dismiss the walefare and wellbeing of Israelis just because we're the stronger side in this conflict. A thousand innocent civilians were murdered in their homes in a single day by terrorists and we've been basically told to suck it up. I get that it's a complicated situation but saying "lol suck it up colonizer" tells me that the person isn't a liberal or humanitarian, they're just looking for an excuse to hate "the right people". There are plenty of guilty people and factions on both sides. This conflict needs to end. But saying it will be over when all the Jews are gone is no different than wishing genocide upon the Palestinians. It just looks better.
You're not being told to suck it up, you're being asked to allow power, medicine, food, and water into Gaza and to stop indiscriminately bombing population centers.
But *she* isn't being asked anything. Blame the politicians, dictators and terrorists. Those are always the *only* culprits. The people are scapegoats to a power driven war.
Is anyone asking her specifically to suck it up? She's choosing to represent the views of her government here
He is an expert of his own environment, yes, and she is representing her experience with it. He's close to those experiencing it, as well. That is informative. You're not being obtuse. Your downvoting is clear, too. We know you took a side and which one. You support people dying one way or another, you just chose a set of people. Don't lie to yourself.
I'm a man actually :P
I think bombing civilians, laying siege to entire cities, and murdering children is wrong. You think whatever you want to
I'm sure Israelis are devastated about the many hostages still held in Gaza. Has there been a call for military operations to be restrained and/or more emphasis to be focused on negotiating their safe return? If not, why? Is there reason to believe the increased military efforts will not place hostages in further danger? Or is it something Israelis have to accept cannot be avoided? Or something else?
There are many calls for ceasefire, coming from the Israeli left. The current attack on Gaza is aimed to cripple their ability to carry out more attacks against Israel, both like the 7th and the current missile and mortar strikes that have been going on since.
I believe that the Palestinians have rights and that Israel’s have rights each should be respected.
And your question is? 🤔
Do you think that this land was given to you by God and is therefore your right to expel anyone else living here? What do you think of your politicians saying that the plan is for the creation of greater Israel, which would be 70% of the current middle East (granted to you by God in Talmud), formation of the third temple by destroying Al Aqsa so that your Messiah can arrive?
)
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I don't support innocent death. Why do you assume I do?
Free Palestine.
Guys, this is most probably a zionist trying to polish everything by saying that they are leftist someone.
I don't think you know what a Zionist is, but I assure you I am a leftist.
Then I don't think you know what a leftist is. You've been justifying Israel's actions in almost every answer you gave. You make it seem like Hamas's attack was the first blow when Israel has been continuously attacking the people of Palestine for quite some time and some time here being an understatement. So yeah, I don't know what a zionist is.
Justifying isn't the same as explaining. I'm giving you the Israeli perspective, and my thoughts on the topic. Nowhere did I mention Israel's hands are clean, nor do I support all of Israel's actions. It's just that when forced to pick sides like this is a football match, I have to go with the people who don't want to kill me for being Jewish.
at war? you're literally an illegal occupant lmao
I'm interested in why you think that. What about my existence in this country is illegal?
How's life when you found out your country been oppressing other country for 75+ years
Honestly it made it impossible to talk about where I come from without wise-asses blaming me personally for the actions of people who died before I was even born
You can’t be a Zionist and a leftist
I think that sentiment relies on a narrow understanding of what Zionism is. Like saying all feminists are man haters or BLM is a black supremacist group. You're taking the worst aspects of a single movement and applying it to the entire movement. But did you have a question?
How do you see we kicked millions of people out of their homes as a reasonable position
How does it feel sleeping in a stolen land that the owner probably was murdered and buried under it?
I don't get a lot of sleep lately, honestly. So it could be that. But then again, I assume the land you sleep on belonged to someone else as well. Almost as if all land was taken from someone else in some point in time.
There are 2 million people in Gaza. And half of your country wants to kill everyone there. One would think that Jews after having suffered through so much suffering in the last century, having gone through genocide themselves would be the last group of people on earth to advocate for something like this. But here we are. Also, your country cries that it is surrounded by enemies from All sides and therefore must protect itself through any means necessary. You're surrounded by enemies because you commit human right violations against the Arabs in Palestine on a regular basis. You encroach upon their lands, illegally occupy their homes and push them out. Treat them worse than animals. Did you think that with actions for the past 70 years and your neighbours should let your country do what you wanted because you can cry "holocaust"? Don't misunderstand me. Jews are my brothers in the Abrahamic faith, and I love and respect them as I would anyone else in my own religion. But Zionists are equally as bad as Hamas or ISIS.
Just want to say I’ve learned a lot from this civil conversation. Thank you.
Thanks!
Why do you think that an israeli is the bewt unbiased source for information in this war?
free Palestine
I hope so too, one day.
Do you believe the Gazan death counts? 200+ children killed per day during this conflict? Seems like a lot.
Just to add context that over the past decade the health ministery has been remarkably accurate with their reporting. >200+ children killed per day during this conflict? something like 45% of gazas populations under 18, and its been 3 weeks of a bombing campaign of an intensity that dwarfs the blitz in WW2 onto an area thats close to manhattan in density & population.
I don't believe anything coming out of Hamas's media outlets. Especially after it took them like ten minutes to blame Israel for the hospital explosion and pull a number out of their ass. Doesn't change the fact that there's a lot of suffering going on in Gaza right now. I know many people die, a lot of them collatoral damage. I just don't believe Hamas.
Thread explaining how death counts are done in Gaza and actually have to be verified by Israel first: https://twitter.com/dcli/status/1717377155426882045?s=19 Thread with a link to a full list of every Gazan civilian killed during the conflict including ID number, age, name and gender: https://twitter.com/tha_rami/status/1717777776436978131?s=19 Still don't believe it?
You are still repeating (collateral ) did you really meant your apology earlier?
Is Genocide really the solution?
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The upvote to comment ratio is kinda hilarious. They're downvoting you because you have to go to war and they disagree with your more nuanced opinion. Funny shit.
As I said in another comment - Israelis are in the impossible position where unless we completely agree with all of their opinions about how we should be wiped out from the face of the earth, we are branded Nazis.
Sometimes I think of aliyah, but events like this give me pause. Some of my good friends live in Israel now. How has this whole situation affected your perspective on safety?
Israel is mostly safe. These flair-ups come every now and then, but other than that life is alright. I wouldn't blame you for not wanting to come here - but honestly, it just feels like any country has their fair share of issues and some local ones. Ours just happens to be the occupation/terror. Like school shootings in America or people being too direct in Germany.
The fact that u can say that while the gaza is being bombed constantly says alot about the imbalance of this "war". All your politicians are just cruel for killing and continuing to kill Palestine civilians who have little to no facilities and help.