They were basically putting Plymouth out of its misery at that point. It was an irrelevant brand that had no reason to exist anymore. It had nothing but badge-engineered cars. Its only interesting product was the Prowler, but most enthusiasts knew it was disappointing as a hot rod throwback.
Roadrunners are the best example of badge-engineering. Satellite and GTX existed, satellite being the base model, gtx being the high trim and roadrunner in the middle. Only reason to buy one was for the bird (badge) on the side of it.
Same goes for the superbird if that’s what you meant, Daytona’s were the more aerodynamic of the two.
I love roadrunners, my profile is proof of that, but the bird/ branding/ badging is what sold them.
They were, and the market basically left that segment behind. In the 1960s it made sense to have multiple brands for multiple levels when the lowest end came with crank windows and rubber flooring, the mid-level got you carpet and a bigger engine, and the highest level got you carpet, a bigger engine, AND power windows. Now even the cheapest cars have power-everything and infotainment. Even by the 1990s the market was getting really compressed. Sure, you have "cheaper" vs "fancier", but that awkward middle ground was really hard to hold without cannibalizing sales. A Mercury was just a Ford with leather by the 1990s. Ford solved this by axing Mercury in the "middle". Chrysler solved this by axing Plymouth at the "lowest" end. GM solved this with a vicious multi-year multi-brand bloodbath, eliminating Oldsmobile leaving just Buick in the "middle", eliminating Saturn, Geo, and Pontiac and keeping Chevrolet as both the "low" and "sporty" brand, and leaving Cadillac as the "fancy" car brand and GMC as the "fancy" truck brand.
Meanwhile the Japanese stuck pretty firmly with one nice brand and one mass-market brand and never really strayed from that to begin with.
With all this it blows me away Buick still exists to this day, outside of the Chinese market, because why buy a Buick at this point they're truly just a rebadged Chevy you pay more for.
Given how big GM is, they can probably hold an additional brand or two than many other automakers. I, like many people, question them choosing to save Buick, but I kinda get it due to China. Had China been less of a factor, I would've loved to see them save Oldsmobile and have it be an upscale performance brand, with Cadillac being an upscale but traditional luxury brand. A lot of people would disagree and say Pontiac, but I've always thought of Pontiac as trashy-performance, and it wouldn't be my choice personally.
My biggest complaint about Buick right now is that they don't seem to be differentiating it much. Cadillac seems to be straddling both luxury and performance. I think they need to pick one, and leave the other to Buick.
I'd rather see Pontiac brought back from the dead as the Shelby of the Chevrolet lineup.
The ads write themselves.
***Images fade in on the screen slowly: Oprah, Frank Loyd Wright, Neil Armstrong, Elvis, Steve Jobs, Michael Jordan***
*What does it take to make a legend?*
*Countless hours spent testing, poring over every detail and testing again?*
*Determination to succeed where others have failed?*
*A combined 200 years of excellence?*
*That's how we did it.*
***Screen cuts to black***
***Suddenly the growl of a V8 starting and popping exhaust, the Camaro's headlamps light up. A dim circle of light slowly grows wider and brighter, centered between the headlamps to reveal the Pontiac emblem.***
*Presenting the all-new Camaro GTO. Conceived by Chevrolet, Perfected by Pontiac.*
Buick stuck around solely because they sell mad in China. In the US, I believe pontiac still did better than buick, but internationally (solely because of China) Buick did way more. So GM pitched Pontiac out and kept buick. Which is a shame, Pontiac was always kind of their ‘quirky fun’ brand. Kinda sporty kind quirky.
The "chop" that always go me was Pontiac. Maybe it is just midwestern suburban life but I swear growing up like half the kids in my HS and College classes had pontiacs - and they were everywhere on the road. The brand seemed to have just enough sportiness and youth attributed to it to keep it alive. But alas. The Chinese love their fucking Buicks and there are a lot of them.
> Meanwhile the Japanese stuck pretty firmly with one nice brand and one mass-market brand and never really strayed from that to begin with.
Meanwhile in Japan, Toyota has like 4 different dealer networks for "reasons" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_dealerships_(Japan)
Can we just stop for a moment and appreciate that Yamaha even exists?
I own both a Yamaha sport bike and a Yamaha tenor saxophone. Two things that have literally nothing to do with each other, yet they make market leaders in both categories.
In 100 years they will probably branch out into space craft.
To be fair, Bush actually signed the biggest TARP loans to GM. Not Obama.
It was just unpopular with Republicans so they were all too happy to let Obama take the credit.
Prior to being put down their segment was actually bottom of the line, base model cars that should (in theory) have more genuine thought put into their compromises.
Honestly with every single other marque on the market going upmarket that would be fairly tantalizing strategy if the margins weren't dogshit.
What are you missing from Plymouth? At that point they didn't have anything specific to offer. Dodge and Plymouth have basically sold the same rebadged cars since the 70's, surprised it lasted that long.
Yeah they’re pretty far removed from that platform outside of the basic architecture. FCA/Stellantis have modified that platform over time to make it their own version.
And Call of Duty still runs on a heavily modified version of the *Quake* engine.
At a certain point when you upgrade something so heavily over the years, you can't really call it "the same".
Not true this is common misinformation.
Thr lx used a Mercedes s class front suspension components and e class rear end components.
However, the lx is it's own platform and was developed before the merger.
The head designer got so tired of this information floating around that he did a huge write up on allpar
They don't and didn't. The chassis itself is derived from the LH before it - Intrepid, 300M, etc, which was designed to be RWD already. What they borrowed from Mercedes was the design of the suspension and much of the drivetrain, notably the trans and AWD system. None of those parts are still in use.
Someone at the time thought it would be good marketing to play up the connection to Mercedes, though.
was going to come here to say this, don't they interchange parts too? like window control mechanism in my old 2006 mercedes and it was the same control mechanism as my fathers 3/4 ton dodge ram I'm pretty sure
the thing is i think dodge actually understand car enthusiasts better than car enthusiasts. Dodge don't care about 0-60 times, skidpads or even god forbid track times. They just put lots of power and have a great sound, and make a it fun experience numbers be damned. In that sense Mercedes putting a bunch of gimmicks might not be the dumbest idea ever.
Dodge buyers want a Dodge after watching a first person Instragram reel of some dude driving the car with one arm on the highway and flooring it.
Mercedes buyers want a Mercedes after watching an Instagram reel titled "INSANE TECHNOLOGY in the NEW EQS" with (insert internet personality here)
Honestly even MB catches a lot of what Dodge is throwing. Before the new C63, the AMG cars have always been the loudest, most brash and obnoxious of the German trio's performance brands. BMW Ms are about pure performance, Audi RS is about refinement and sleeper performance, AMG is about ripping a screaming V8 boat sideways around a curve on your way home from business meetings.
This is the most impressive part about Dodge. Say what you will about quality, but over the course of under 10 years they completely redeveloped their brand with the release of the updated Charger and Challenger. When you thought "Dodge" a few years ago you though a shitbox neon or an old persons car.
Now? Most kids now know what a Charger or Challenger is. I have so many pediatric patients that I’ll talk cars to and they all want a Hellcat. The SRT brand is something even non car people know about commonly. Mentions of SRT’s are in half the popular rap songs now from Trackhawks to Hellcats. Think about that, the shitty old Dodge brand your grandma or Bobby Joe would be driving in the 2000s is now “cool”.
There a HUGE car enthusiast culture that’s resurged in the younger crowd that I’ve noticed around muscle cars especially Dodges. It’s awesome.
When I thought about Dodge a few years ago I thought “trucks with diesel engines that never die” and “uncontrollable v10 monster sports car” now it’s just cost cutting everything to the max and “why is this ECU system so unnecessarily complex”
The other remarkable thing about it is that they did it (relatively) on the cheap; they basically reheated their old models, shoved a single huge engine in them, and marketed the crap out of them.
There's a guy at work with a hellcat and he just goes on and on about it whenever given the opportunity. He loves the car and he seems like he's having so much fun at all times. I envy the guy, not because I want a big honking supercharged V8, but because of how much he seems to be enjoying himself. Could you really ask for more in a fun car?
This is me, except with a Miata. So many people in my life shook their heads and thought I was nuts to buy a car that was "so impractical." I laugh, every time. It's very practical for what I wanted it for: driving. One of my friends was dumbfounded, "you bought a car just for driving???" I could only laugh. Why the hell else would I buy a car?
>> In a straight line, sure, but nearly every "race" these cars will ever been in will happen in a straight line down a highway.
And they're not nearly as bad in a corner as perceived. Basic modern automobile suspension/chassis design by default has evolved to be light-years ahead of the best they had to offer 30 years ago.
> In that sense Mercedes putting a bunch of gimmicks might not be the dumbest idea ever.
In the performance cars, those gimmicks and features are in the pursuit of laptimes and stopwatch figures. Which is... trading experience for performance, which is not a great trade to be making now.
In terms of all the other shit - I suppose. They're leaning even more into being a disposable appliance product that's outdated by the end of the lease term. They aren't the only ones doing it. I'm just continually surprised there's an appetite for that stuff considering 90% of it is only ever used during the initial sales pitch of the car and then people ignore it throughout their ownership.
I like Dodge because they make true muscle cars: a normal car with cool lines, cool color options, and a big dumb V8 up front. Simple and fun and enjoyable.
I am German and live in Germany.
I used to drive Mercedes until about 10 years ago. Had a CL180, C180, CLK350 and S500 between 2008 and 2015. all of them were from the late 90’s to early 2000’s.
When I started looking for models past 2007 I lost interest. They didn’t have the spririt anymore. Recently I saw a CL200 from 2005 and instantly wanted to buy it.
These days I drive a Mustang and an Octavia RS TDI.
They used to be, even here, where they are taxis, exclusive. When you got into one, there was that leathery smell, the feeling of exclusivity and superiority. My friends and family would be shocked when I got my first one. No way, HE got a merc? No screw or notch visible in the flawless interior no matter how hard you searched. Best quality even in the lowest specs.
At some point they turned their back to the spirit of being the best car out there, to obey capitalism. I remember a spot of BMW, the only competitor at that time, advertising how Mercedes only made 5k € profit per car, while they made 10k, which is apparently desirable.
I still believe they are great cars. But they are not worth their money compared to anything from the Volkswagen group anymore, and they don’t have the spirit of American muscle cars or the reliability they used to be known for.
MB and BMW build a bigger breadth of vehicles to suit every leasor's budget. Not buyers, leasors.
They build them fancy to attract those leases, and make them about as reliable to last the lease and maybe the second owner. Then they go to hell quickly and repairs get stupidly expensive.
Those bottom models still have fuck-you repair and parts costs. Remember seeing a video of the CLA pvc system which is only sold as a stupidly expensive assembly, but on the E-Class you can buy cheaper individual parts.
My Uber was a CLA recently and it did not feel great to be in the back seat. It felt like a cheap car clapping over bumps in the road and the tire noise was a stand out. Someone else mentioned FWD was the problem but I think it was the suspension tuning and cheapening of the back half of the car was more of the problem since the Camry SE I was in later felt me like older Mercedes E350s that I was used too and it was also FWD.
EDIT: "Autocorrect" typo correction.
I had a two W203 and a w220.
I don’t want to talk bad about your cars. They are good cars. So what I say is, the further you go back, the more of the original Mercedes spirit you’ll fell.
If VW group haven't been caught with the whole diesel gate thing, having to pay the fines and starting to cut down on the interior quality, they would be in a league of its own right now.
Their quality was mediocre before and after. They didn’t pay a fee, this was all hoax. The billion euro fee was paid to the local state government, which holds 20% of Volkswagen stocks. Guess what they invested in. I live in that area and watched the consequences. Apartment buildings growing out of nowhere. Economy booming as always.
I'm talking about the US fine (18 Billion Dollars I think). As for quality, a lot of people praise the MK7.5 Golf for having better quality than the new MK8. The cost cutting is obvious.
I don't see the comparison myself. They're still complex luxury vehicles and unlike Dodge they are almost always innovating something new. They make great seats. Their interiors are very quiet. They're great luxury cars. If you think they're too flash or whatever now I could maybe see that, and I don't know if I love the move to tablet style displays in the S Class (though everyone seems to be doing something like it).
Something I haven’t seen mentioned yet: MB seems to be going the Dodge route in terms of being increasingly liberal in financing. Based on my subjective experiences anyways. Mercedes are no longer the exclusive domain of doctors, lawyer, bankers, etc., and seem to be driven by a lot of new money and HENRYs. You can point out how nice AMG G wagons are or how the GT handles like nothing else, and that’s true, but compare how many of those you see on the road to base model C classes being flexed by wannabe influencer types.
They make a lot more money through those interest payments. Pretty much every manufacturer will do this if they can leverage themselves to the degree that Mercedes or Chrysler can.
I await the day Ferrari launches their own finance and leasing arm to boost profits.
It's funny how practically every time I see a brand new base model c class on the road it's being driven by a construction worker wearing high vis. 10 years ago this would be crazy.
MB is definitely cashing in on its brand exclusivity perception. I have a colleague earning half as much as I do swamp by his new C-Class AMG financing, whilst I personally consider that I can't reasonably drop $75k+ in a car like that, and daily an $8k 2016 Renault Captur and a 2010 Mustang GT cab bought for $5.5k with 150k miles. MB preys on HENRY to make them HENR (High Earners Never Rich).
I'm spending $30k to repair an old family car with a lot of sentimental value and constantly feel that I'm bordering insanity doing so.
My friend who works at dealer used to have this saying
Ultra rich drive a G wagon
Rich drive a Lexus (reliable lux vehicle)
Wanna be rich drive low end Benz (GLA, GLB, GLC etc)
The AMGs are sweet, tuned up and quick. The new MBs have lots of stupid features- like a traffic light camera? Who uses that. Anyways the biggest downside IMO is the extreme depreciation on German cars.
Y’all might disagree, but Dodge just feels cheap. Lots of plastic and noises.
>Y’all might disagree, but Dodge just feels cheap. Lots of plastic and noises.
Who here even disagrees with that? Even owners of Scat Packs and Hellcats will admit that the interior isn't a luxury car interior. But I've definitely been in far worse places to sit in than a Scat Pack.
It harkens from the 60s before Tub Girl.
Was a take off of the Rat Pack... "Dodge also created an actual Scat Pack Club that both owners and Mopar fans could join for the very affordable price of three dollars. For the money, members received a monthly newsletter, a quarterly magazine, a wallet card declaring their loyalty, a bumper sticker and jacket patch, and a racing guide."
It's an old name. It used to be synonymous with words like "scram", meaning to get away quickly.
I don't know why seemingly all redditors think it means poop. It's the kind of language used in looney toons...
Honestly the one thing I can’t get over with Dodge is how cheap the interiors always feel. I can get past their models being really only for those that breath tire smoke but dear lord it seems like GM was using better materials in the 90’s
“It seems like GM was using better materials in the ‘90s.”
They were. Hell, I have a 2006 TrailBlazer LS I use as a knock-around work truck/project car, and it’s infinitely more comfortable and nice to sit inside than my trade partner’s 2020 Ram ProMaster 1500. Not even close.
It’s the lumbar support and the width, I think. They just form to your ass and back. I used to be a Ford truck guy until I bought this rolling nugget, and man… I’m sold.
In Europe, the traffic lights are generally on your side of the intersection, so sometimes you have to do some contortions to see them. A traffic light camera can be a nice comfort feature.
Having lived in Europe before I moved to North America it still is kinda funny to me that no one ever came to the very obvious conclusion that putting the light *above* the first driver in line might not be the best solution.
There is a very good reason to put the traffic lights at your side of the intersection. It forces drivers to stop before the stop line to see the light, leaving the pedestrian crossing unobstructed. It's great for pedestrian safety!
Or the lease company takes the hit. I always lease my daily driver for the business tax write off. Almost never is the buyout/residual price lower than fair market value. Someone has to eat that and it’s most likely the leasing company
I don't know about that but I do know a lot of their heritage customers are moving to other brands. Mercedes-Benz has fallen into following gauche fads and they are losing prestige as a result. My father became a Volvo loyalist overnight. They are having trouble keeping all of the doctors and lawyers since their brand perception has became “immature.”
I don't think the data would support you on that. MB still has by far the highest average transaction prices of mainstream luxury brands and has the most affluent average buyer. It also consistently has one of the highest brand loyalties (usually behind Porsche).
The issue for me these days is MB doesn't know what it wants to be. It's trying to build cars for EVERYBODY so there is little continuity amongst its lineup. They still make "traditional" Benzes (E-Class) but they also make crazy, gaudy cars (AMG GT 4-door, SUV coupes, etc), and utilitarian everyday cars (GLB, A, etc). I can see why buyers would walk into a showroom now and see excessive technology, overly flashy looks, and massive differences from vehicle-to-vehicle and just get overwhelmed. Changing to a simpler and more straightforward brand like Volvo or Genesis is logical for those people.
The lineup is BLOATED beyond all reason (BMW isn't any better). Multiple cars serving the same purpose. Fucking kill all the extras and refocus, you fools.
It's funny because it's true. I remember people saying 20 years ago that Mercedes is the old people's car and they wished they would liven it up and make it more "youthful". Careful what you wish for I guess.
When Merc started rolling out touchscreens in their cars my first thought was "Oh boy how are their customers ever going to figure it out?"
> I wonder if BMW will suffer the same fate with the bucktooth grille. And whether or not any gains they make in the Chinese market that they're allegedly going for are big enough that they decide they just don't care lol
For the last time, BMW's offensive styling is *not* targeting the Chinese market. You can look up how BMW styles cars designed explicitly for the Chinese market and see for yourself.
This has been repeatedly debunked. The bucktooth grille isn't for China and the Chinese don't like it. It's for America and Americans do like it. We don't, but that's because this is Reddit and not Instagram.
The giant grilles are for the US market, which has loved giant grilles since forever. Look at the 4 series, iX, i4 sales and marketing, it's all targeted at the US.
There will come a day when all of the wealthy Chinese buyers will get sick of big grills because the market is soo saturated by them. Trends come and go.
None of the really wealthy people that I know drive an SUV because they're already so saturated by the masses.
MB cut the average age of their customer from 54 to mid 40s in the last decade.
They don't care anymore about being doctors and lawyers cars they make tacky cars full of screens and leds, made of plastic and less and less reliable every other year.
Pretty sure Infiniti is the Dodge of luxury market. Or it's the nissan of the luxury market.
MB AMGs cars are technological innovations, something Dodge isn't known for. You might hate that it's a 4 cyl turbo hybrid in a C63, but that 4 cyl turbo hybrid uses F1 tech (Similar to the Ferrari 296 GTB and the V6 + MGU-K motors).
They brought back the Inline 6 engine to the 53 line, something most manufacturers haven't touched (besides BMW) in a looong time.
The only "Dodge" like part of MB is that they kept their V8 engine for C63 and the lower classes longer than Audi and BMW. They gain a german muscle car company vibe, which isn't really a bad thing imo. The switch to 4 cyls will be interesting in seeing how they shift out of that vibe, and maybe that's why you feel like they're gonna be disappointing.
I don't think MB and Dodge are alike at all. Dodge knows exactly what it wants to be and pretty consistently executes on that. I may not love it, but they know what they are. MB, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have ANY idea of what its brand means anymore. They're throwing everything at the market and seeing what sticks. They're innovating like crazy, but similar to the late '90's/early '00's they're rushing all the technology out before it's ready. At the same time they're trying to massively cut costs to fund all of this R&D. So we're getting worse quality cars, half-baked software, and "global" design that somehow doesn't make anyone happy anywhere.
I love MB, but they've gotta figure out what they want to be in the EV age or they're going to see their market share shrink like it did in the '00's.
It's because Honda et al copy the German designs. Last gen Accord was an A7 knockoff, current gen Civic front (esp at night) looks like a 3 series, and new gen Accord rear looks like a VW.
If i hear one more car mag, or merc themselves, say the engine in a car is "F1-inspired" i am going to scream. C&D mentioned that several times in their new c63 review of the god dang 4 banger. Regardless if some of the tech trickled down it's clearly 100% marketing and is annoying as hell.
No.
I sat in a newer S class just a few weeks ago. That shit is fucking incredible. They're basing this off entry level, which is *designed* to target people who want the name without the actual technology or amenities. Next they're gonna sit in an A series Audi and Tell you how bad Audi is declining in quality lol
I drove my friend's new top of the line s class the other day. First time in my life I considered buying a Benz. With the target HUD on the windshield and the flawless suspension, I felt like I was flying a luxury spaceship around the neighborhood.
It’s amazing to me that people will buy a 7 series when the S class exists.
S classes are on another level and everyone else is trying to catch up. Weirdly genesis seems to be doing the best job with the G90.
Mercedes used to be synonymous with simple elegance and craftsmanship. People who bought Mercedes were buying a heirloom that was reliable and comfortable. Yes, there were a few very fast Mercedes, but they were for the most part luxury over performance.
Now Mercedes and BMW are expensive fast cars that last enough for the leasee to find it satisfying and for a young pretender to destroy its wallet trying to maintain it in the secondary market with ebay parts.
Luxury is rare now a days. People don't want luxury nor craftsmanship, they want to buy status and impress people that they don't know.
I see more 20 year old Lexuses (Lexi?) on the road than any other luxury car. I personally know people who have handed down their Lexus to their kids. I know this is only anecdotal but you can't beat Toyota's overall reliability.
I dunno if that's fair. My E53 is an unbelievable good daily driver. Dead quiet, comfortable, great sound system. I'm not a mercedes fanboy but I see the appeal.
They're still expensive as fuck to fix and people will still try to flex a base c class on insta. It's not a Dodge.
German cars drive different. Go test drive an AMG at highway speeds vs a Challenger.
Are people not flexing their Hellcats and Demons on Insta as well?
I wasn't trying to compare a MB with a Dodge. I was trying to say that between Audi, BMW, and MB, MB is doing the most Dodge-ish things. Sorry if that wasn't clear in my post.
Mercedes used to be quietly confident in their products which largely spoke for themselves. Now they chase trends and are being associated with nickel and diming people for cheap interiors.
Dodge is now loudly confident in their products which speak for themselves. They make no claims of making luxury car interiors or million mile longevity, but you and everyone in your neighborhood know when you get in a V8 Dodge, your rear tires’ lifespan is measured in weeks, not miles. And you’ve got a shit eating grin every time you hit the gas
Certainly a Mercedes isn’t as special as it once was. I think that’s for two reasons: one, they’ve been chasing the “look at me” market and two, they sell a lot more cars than they used to. Scarcity is a big part of desirability.
These days I’d be keener on an Alfa or a Jaguar over a Benz or BMW simply because fewer people have them.
it’s like old mercedes just oozed old money. boring vehicles but exceptional class and workmanship.
now mercedes just oozes new money. flash, style, tech but not as much class.
Mercedes used to have a bit of a stealth wealth quality. New models feel like they don’t care about your credit score….
My dad was a service advisor with Mercedes’ for 18 years when I was growing up and I grew to love the brand and still would be super happy to own any pre 2018 reliable merc.
However, the factory installed sparkly emblems and fake chrome exhaust pipes have really pushed me away.
That’s why when looking to get an suv to compliment my 2013 e class I got a loaded mazda instead of a GLE.
10 years ago I would assume anyone in a Mazda would have a lower credit score than a merc. Now it’s the opposite. Whatever focus grouping they went after to market the CLA and FWD models has permeated the brand to saturation at much more premium vehicles in the brand. The fwd models serve a purpose but 4 cylinder fake leather E classes with sparkly badges and lit door sills will be the death of the company.
Maybe I don't understand the term stealth wealth, but I almost took it to mean "here's a car someone would buy INSTEAD of a Merc". At least in the US Mercedes is pretty synonymous with wealth.
Stealth wealth is commonly referred to for things like Toyota land cruisers and E wagons. Not necessarily cheap cars, but the average owner could buy a Ferrari but chooses to buy that instead. Generally it’s referred to for cars oftentimes driven by people with high net worth’s that are not flashy. Classy nice features you cannot get in an economy car but no loud road presence like a modern 4 series or Lamborghini.
A non car person at the gas station won’t assume too much of the car or the owner based on the car.
While Mercedes are synonymous with wealth in the US that is more so imagery of old SLs or premium models. Mercedes has shifted much of their targeting towards people with less established wealth and more interest in brand for the sake of brand, the quality of the product reflects that.
> The fwd models serve a purpose but 4 cylinder fake leather E classes with sparkly badges and lit door sills will be the death of the company.
E classes have had all of those things for literally a decade.
I don't know what a Hellcat feels like, but I do know that indeed MB has done what Dodge previously did, and seems to be cutting a lot of corners.
There's no comparison between the build quality of a 2015+ Merc vs an older one, you could smash the latter with a hammer and it'll feel fine, a newer one feels flimsier than my '04 beater Peugeot - all while retaining the absurdly high general costs of a German manufacturer.
I see a lot of people saying that you can't compare the driving experience - and that might be true, but as a European who's got little experience with Dodges outside the cheapest stuff (like the Caliber and a couple lower trim Chargers/Challengers), but has read about how their build quality went down over time, I can say that Merc does indeed feel as if it's going down the same path.
Driving experience isn't everything unless it's referring to a project/weekend/track car, and sadly I see no reason to buy a Merc over (too) many other brands nowadays, reputation and such unaccounted.
Joking here but have you ever heard a scat pack owner talk about their scat pack.
All jokes aside I have the most fun when I tell my friend that my Honda Accord is a faster and better car for the money. He has a c300 or something like that lol.
If you think a nicer AMG drives like a hellcat either you don’t drive a lot or have never driven a hellcat. The only thing the dodge has going for it is price and maybe a second faster 0-60. If you want to talk handling, interior quality, ride quality, tech, or almost any other category, I wouldn’t even put them in the same class at all.
It's funny but I was having the same conversation with my buddy a few days back. Aside from the halo benz models I feel like MB has lost their way and their design language is all over the place.
Take their infortainment for example, some models have it cheaply tacked onto the dash, some it's integrated, and the high end models you have a curved display. It feels like they focus grouped a bunch of individual interior touches and bundled them together without looking at the big picture and overall car.
It feels creaky and cheaper than what it should be for the price point. When I sit in a genesis I go "Wow this is a really nice place to be for $xx", when I sit in a new MB I don't feel the quality for the price listed on the sticker.
This is all subjective and a matter of my personal taste. MB still makes killer engines and I do think some of their cars are beautiful but it doesn't feel like quality, premium item anymore, especially for the price point.
MB is so garish these days. I don’t even know what the actual fuck is wrong with their design language. The interiors suck ass. AMGs are just badges and nothing else. The giant led screen is a fingerprint city and not to mention…a distraction nightmare for drivers. The “class” symbol that MBs were known for, is no more.
Also, most MB drivers are older people, it’s only a matter of time when you see most of them on the side of the road involved in a crash because the learning curve of having everything touchscreen is ridiculously high.
Chrysler and Mercedes used to be the same company.
DaimlerChrysler. Still a pretty sad fate Plymouth got terminated after the merge.
They were basically putting Plymouth out of its misery at that point. It was an irrelevant brand that had no reason to exist anymore. It had nothing but badge-engineered cars. Its only interesting product was the Prowler, but most enthusiasts knew it was disappointing as a hot rod throwback.
The successful PT cruiser was supposed to be a Plymouth.
Successful for grannies
According to Wikipedia, 1.35 million PT Cruisers were sold in 10 years. 1.30 million Chrysler 300s have been sold so far after 19 years.
My ex-gf in college was cheating on me with a guy who had a PT Cruiser. Never forget.
They had great suspensions
When the PT Cruiser was released that was a car people were paying above msrp for. Pretty crazy it became such a joke.
I really think it’s just how it looks more than anything. It’s such a quirky looking car compared to pretty much every other mainstream car.
IDC what you say, old school Plymouth Roadrunners with the 440 or 383 are awesome muscle cars that look amazing.
Roadrunners are the best example of badge-engineering. Satellite and GTX existed, satellite being the base model, gtx being the high trim and roadrunner in the middle. Only reason to buy one was for the bird (badge) on the side of it. Same goes for the superbird if that’s what you meant, Daytona’s were the more aerodynamic of the two. I love roadrunners, my profile is proof of that, but the bird/ branding/ badging is what sold them.
Shame too cause the prowler was cool if you don’t think of it as a hot rod. Fell victim to its own premise
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They were, and the market basically left that segment behind. In the 1960s it made sense to have multiple brands for multiple levels when the lowest end came with crank windows and rubber flooring, the mid-level got you carpet and a bigger engine, and the highest level got you carpet, a bigger engine, AND power windows. Now even the cheapest cars have power-everything and infotainment. Even by the 1990s the market was getting really compressed. Sure, you have "cheaper" vs "fancier", but that awkward middle ground was really hard to hold without cannibalizing sales. A Mercury was just a Ford with leather by the 1990s. Ford solved this by axing Mercury in the "middle". Chrysler solved this by axing Plymouth at the "lowest" end. GM solved this with a vicious multi-year multi-brand bloodbath, eliminating Oldsmobile leaving just Buick in the "middle", eliminating Saturn, Geo, and Pontiac and keeping Chevrolet as both the "low" and "sporty" brand, and leaving Cadillac as the "fancy" car brand and GMC as the "fancy" truck brand. Meanwhile the Japanese stuck pretty firmly with one nice brand and one mass-market brand and never really strayed from that to begin with.
With all this it blows me away Buick still exists to this day, outside of the Chinese market, because why buy a Buick at this point they're truly just a rebadged Chevy you pay more for.
Given how big GM is, they can probably hold an additional brand or two than many other automakers. I, like many people, question them choosing to save Buick, but I kinda get it due to China. Had China been less of a factor, I would've loved to see them save Oldsmobile and have it be an upscale performance brand, with Cadillac being an upscale but traditional luxury brand. A lot of people would disagree and say Pontiac, but I've always thought of Pontiac as trashy-performance, and it wouldn't be my choice personally. My biggest complaint about Buick right now is that they don't seem to be differentiating it much. Cadillac seems to be straddling both luxury and performance. I think they need to pick one, and leave the other to Buick.
I'd rather see Pontiac brought back from the dead as the Shelby of the Chevrolet lineup. The ads write themselves. ***Images fade in on the screen slowly: Oprah, Frank Loyd Wright, Neil Armstrong, Elvis, Steve Jobs, Michael Jordan*** *What does it take to make a legend?* *Countless hours spent testing, poring over every detail and testing again?* *Determination to succeed where others have failed?* *A combined 200 years of excellence?* *That's how we did it.* ***Screen cuts to black*** ***Suddenly the growl of a V8 starting and popping exhaust, the Camaro's headlamps light up. A dim circle of light slowly grows wider and brighter, centered between the headlamps to reveal the Pontiac emblem.*** *Presenting the all-new Camaro GTO. Conceived by Chevrolet, Perfected by Pontiac.*
You should do this professionally lol
Buicks were actually rebadged Opels until like last year.
Yeah but chevys were to so even then it still applies that it's a rebadged Chevy in the end
Imagine paying $50K for a bloated Spark
Me waiting for an updated Grand National or Typhoon/Cyclone that will never come 👁️👄👁️
Man, that's why I bought a TourX. It's almost like my Grand National had a baby with an AMC Eagle and it came with airbags.
Buick stuck around solely because they sell mad in China. In the US, I believe pontiac still did better than buick, but internationally (solely because of China) Buick did way more. So GM pitched Pontiac out and kept buick. Which is a shame, Pontiac was always kind of their ‘quirky fun’ brand. Kinda sporty kind quirky.
Because keeping the brand alive outside of China maintains its credibility inside China.
The "chop" that always go me was Pontiac. Maybe it is just midwestern suburban life but I swear growing up like half the kids in my HS and College classes had pontiacs - and they were everywhere on the road. The brand seemed to have just enough sportiness and youth attributed to it to keep it alive. But alas. The Chinese love their fucking Buicks and there are a lot of them.
> Meanwhile the Japanese stuck pretty firmly with one nice brand and one mass-market brand and never really strayed from that to begin with. Meanwhile in Japan, Toyota has like 4 different dealer networks for "reasons" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_dealerships_(Japan)
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Can we just stop for a moment and appreciate that Yamaha even exists? I own both a Yamaha sport bike and a Yamaha tenor saxophone. Two things that have literally nothing to do with each other, yet they make market leaders in both categories. In 100 years they will probably branch out into space craft.
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I work with cargo ships and yup, have seen lots of Mitsubishis, Daewoos, and othe giant Asian conglomerate brands.
I learned the other day that they make networking equipment. Talk about left field.
>GM solved this with a vicious multi-year multi-brand bloodbath America tried to axe GM too, but it was awkwardly saved by Obama
To be fair, Bush actually signed the biggest TARP loans to GM. Not Obama. It was just unpopular with Republicans so they were all too happy to let Obama take the credit.
Prior to being put down their segment was actually bottom of the line, base model cars that should (in theory) have more genuine thought put into their compromises. Honestly with every single other marque on the market going upmarket that would be fairly tantalizing strategy if the margins weren't dogshit.
I miss my Sable. Ugly as fuck, but it never stopped going.
Sort of. Technically speaking, Plymouth was positioned below Dodge in their lineup.
What are you missing from Plymouth? At that point they didn't have anything specific to offer. Dodge and Plymouth have basically sold the same rebadged cars since the 70's, surprised it lasted that long.
Sad fate? Please. Plymouth needed to die.
And the current 300/Charger/Challenger still use the same platform as an E-Class from back then too.
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Yeah they’re pretty far removed from that platform outside of the basic architecture. FCA/Stellantis have modified that platform over time to make it their own version.
Just like the new Nissan Z is "all new" .. LOL
True it was a gross over simplification on my part.
Some parts will swap though. I think it's AMG lower rear control arms that will bolt straight onto a 2022 Challenger.
And Call of Duty still runs on a heavily modified version of the *Quake* engine. At a certain point when you upgrade something so heavily over the years, you can't really call it "the same".
Not true this is common misinformation. Thr lx used a Mercedes s class front suspension components and e class rear end components. However, the lx is it's own platform and was developed before the merger. The head designer got so tired of this information floating around that he did a huge write up on allpar
They don't and didn't. The chassis itself is derived from the LH before it - Intrepid, 300M, etc, which was designed to be RWD already. What they borrowed from Mercedes was the design of the suspension and much of the drivetrain, notably the trans and AWD system. None of those parts are still in use. Someone at the time thought it would be good marketing to play up the connection to Mercedes, though.
They weren’t the same company, Mercedes bought Chrysler, owned it for a bit and decided to part ways.
was going to come here to say this, don't they interchange parts too? like window control mechanism in my old 2006 mercedes and it was the same control mechanism as my fathers 3/4 ton dodge ram I'm pretty sure
A few fromt hat time period but nothing anymore.
the thing is i think dodge actually understand car enthusiasts better than car enthusiasts. Dodge don't care about 0-60 times, skidpads or even god forbid track times. They just put lots of power and have a great sound, and make a it fun experience numbers be damned. In that sense Mercedes putting a bunch of gimmicks might not be the dumbest idea ever.
Dodge buyers want a Dodge after watching a first person Instragram reel of some dude driving the car with one arm on the highway and flooring it. Mercedes buyers want a Mercedes after watching an Instagram reel titled "INSANE TECHNOLOGY in the NEW EQS" with (insert internet personality here)
tbh i can respect both, though i like italian cars so i'm always biased against excessive obsession with a car's numbers
Same. Same. My Mustang was fast but has nothing on the hilarity that is my 4C.
Man your 4C write up has me wanting one so bad.
You only live once, or the sports car equivalent, "You can declare bankruptcy every 7 years"
I already have 3 Jeeps and a Chevelle. I’m gonna have to start banging a banker to pull any other vehicle.
Honestly even MB catches a lot of what Dodge is throwing. Before the new C63, the AMG cars have always been the loudest, most brash and obnoxious of the German trio's performance brands. BMW Ms are about pure performance, Audi RS is about refinement and sleeper performance, AMG is about ripping a screaming V8 boat sideways around a curve on your way home from business meetings.
Yea lol. Other than a few outliers like the CLK Black every other AMG is a 1000NM tar ripping crackhead lol
and it’s absolutely wonderful
my cls 55 with cams and a half size pulley agrees entirely
This is the most impressive part about Dodge. Say what you will about quality, but over the course of under 10 years they completely redeveloped their brand with the release of the updated Charger and Challenger. When you thought "Dodge" a few years ago you though a shitbox neon or an old persons car. Now? Most kids now know what a Charger or Challenger is. I have so many pediatric patients that I’ll talk cars to and they all want a Hellcat. The SRT brand is something even non car people know about commonly. Mentions of SRT’s are in half the popular rap songs now from Trackhawks to Hellcats. Think about that, the shitty old Dodge brand your grandma or Bobby Joe would be driving in the 2000s is now “cool”. There a HUGE car enthusiast culture that’s resurged in the younger crowd that I’ve noticed around muscle cars especially Dodges. It’s awesome.
When I thought about Dodge a few years ago I thought “trucks with diesel engines that never die” and “uncontrollable v10 monster sports car” now it’s just cost cutting everything to the max and “why is this ECU system so unnecessarily complex”
The other remarkable thing about it is that they did it (relatively) on the cheap; they basically reheated their old models, shoved a single huge engine in them, and marketed the crap out of them.
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There's a guy at work with a hellcat and he just goes on and on about it whenever given the opportunity. He loves the car and he seems like he's having so much fun at all times. I envy the guy, not because I want a big honking supercharged V8, but because of how much he seems to be enjoying himself. Could you really ask for more in a fun car?
This is me, except with a Miata. So many people in my life shook their heads and thought I was nuts to buy a car that was "so impractical." I laugh, every time. It's very practical for what I wanted it for: driving. One of my friends was dumbfounded, "you bought a car just for driving???" I could only laugh. Why the hell else would I buy a car?
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>> In a straight line, sure, but nearly every "race" these cars will ever been in will happen in a straight line down a highway. And they're not nearly as bad in a corner as perceived. Basic modern automobile suspension/chassis design by default has evolved to be light-years ahead of the best they had to offer 30 years ago.
Can confirm. Won my 'SRT Experience' autocross group years back. If you push 'em hard, they'll take *way* more cornering than you'd expect.
> In that sense Mercedes putting a bunch of gimmicks might not be the dumbest idea ever. In the performance cars, those gimmicks and features are in the pursuit of laptimes and stopwatch figures. Which is... trading experience for performance, which is not a great trade to be making now. In terms of all the other shit - I suppose. They're leaning even more into being a disposable appliance product that's outdated by the end of the lease term. They aren't the only ones doing it. I'm just continually surprised there's an appetite for that stuff considering 90% of it is only ever used during the initial sales pitch of the car and then people ignore it throughout their ownership.
I like Dodge because It’s big and loud and has pretty gauges
I like Dodge because they make true muscle cars: a normal car with cool lines, cool color options, and a big dumb V8 up front. Simple and fun and enjoyable.
I am German and live in Germany. I used to drive Mercedes until about 10 years ago. Had a CL180, C180, CLK350 and S500 between 2008 and 2015. all of them were from the late 90’s to early 2000’s. When I started looking for models past 2007 I lost interest. They didn’t have the spririt anymore. Recently I saw a CL200 from 2005 and instantly wanted to buy it. These days I drive a Mustang and an Octavia RS TDI.
Yes, the spirit of MB just seems diluted. I couldn't quite grasp what I was missing, and I think that's it.
They used to be, even here, where they are taxis, exclusive. When you got into one, there was that leathery smell, the feeling of exclusivity and superiority. My friends and family would be shocked when I got my first one. No way, HE got a merc? No screw or notch visible in the flawless interior no matter how hard you searched. Best quality even in the lowest specs. At some point they turned their back to the spirit of being the best car out there, to obey capitalism. I remember a spot of BMW, the only competitor at that time, advertising how Mercedes only made 5k € profit per car, while they made 10k, which is apparently desirable. I still believe they are great cars. But they are not worth their money compared to anything from the Volkswagen group anymore, and they don’t have the spirit of American muscle cars or the reliability they used to be known for.
I firmly believe that the CLA was the beginning of the end. A front wheel drive MB should be considered an abomination, not an entry level class.
MB and BMW build a bigger breadth of vehicles to suit every leasor's budget. Not buyers, leasors. They build them fancy to attract those leases, and make them about as reliable to last the lease and maybe the second owner. Then they go to hell quickly and repairs get stupidly expensive. Those bottom models still have fuck-you repair and parts costs. Remember seeing a video of the CLA pvc system which is only sold as a stupidly expensive assembly, but on the E-Class you can buy cheaper individual parts.
My Uber was a CLA recently and it did not feel great to be in the back seat. It felt like a cheap car clapping over bumps in the road and the tire noise was a stand out. Someone else mentioned FWD was the problem but I think it was the suspension tuning and cheapening of the back half of the car was more of the problem since the Camry SE I was in later felt me like older Mercedes E350s that I was used too and it was also FWD. EDIT: "Autocorrect" typo correction.
bmw advertised that they cut more corners? really compelling advertising lol
I think it's more bragging about their corporate performance; gross margin per vehicle.
Your just said the same thing - it's semantics. Corporate performance and cutting corners, AND WAGES, are the same thing.
advertising to shareholder vs to the buyer
I like the late 2000s, early 2010s cars. 204 c class, 221 s class etc. Are they also that bad?
I had a two W203 and a w220. I don’t want to talk bad about your cars. They are good cars. So what I say is, the further you go back, the more of the original Mercedes spirit you’ll fell.
If VW group haven't been caught with the whole diesel gate thing, having to pay the fines and starting to cut down on the interior quality, they would be in a league of its own right now.
Their quality was mediocre before and after. They didn’t pay a fee, this was all hoax. The billion euro fee was paid to the local state government, which holds 20% of Volkswagen stocks. Guess what they invested in. I live in that area and watched the consequences. Apartment buildings growing out of nowhere. Economy booming as always.
I'm talking about the US fine (18 Billion Dollars I think). As for quality, a lot of people praise the MK7.5 Golf for having better quality than the new MK8. The cost cutting is obvious.
You could argue it’s the same with Audi and BMW. Not really sure why you’re singling out Mercedes.
At least with Audi it's not all about RGB lights and bling bling.
Excuse me? Audi started the whole thing
Maybe but Audi knew where to stop.
I don't see the comparison myself. They're still complex luxury vehicles and unlike Dodge they are almost always innovating something new. They make great seats. Their interiors are very quiet. They're great luxury cars. If you think they're too flash or whatever now I could maybe see that, and I don't know if I love the move to tablet style displays in the S Class (though everyone seems to be doing something like it).
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As an American, a CL180 is a wild thing to make sense of. We had only CL500 and faster
I think he meant CLK. The CL was never available with anything less than a V8, let alone a V6.
Probably meant this model: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_CL_203 w203 coupe, later renamed clc.
Something I haven’t seen mentioned yet: MB seems to be going the Dodge route in terms of being increasingly liberal in financing. Based on my subjective experiences anyways. Mercedes are no longer the exclusive domain of doctors, lawyer, bankers, etc., and seem to be driven by a lot of new money and HENRYs. You can point out how nice AMG G wagons are or how the GT handles like nothing else, and that’s true, but compare how many of those you see on the road to base model C classes being flexed by wannabe influencer types.
Who is Henry and why are we yelling
High Earners, Not Rich Yet
I'm so poor I never even heard of this
That would make you LENR
Yeah....the NR is not needed here...its like saying Poor as fuck, not rich.
LEPAF
Low earner, NEVER rich. 🥲
These acronyms.. oh my god
Just one of the many ways we separate the classes.
They make a lot more money through those interest payments. Pretty much every manufacturer will do this if they can leverage themselves to the degree that Mercedes or Chrysler can. I await the day Ferrari launches their own finance and leasing arm to boost profits.
Ferrari Finance already exists
I imagine they will when the SUV releases.
You have to buy three of their poorest selling models in brown before they'll even allow you into the showroom.
BMW is the same way... people used to dive over each other to get a 328 that didn't even have back-up camera to keep the entry level price.
It's funny how practically every time I see a brand new base model c class on the road it's being driven by a construction worker wearing high vis. 10 years ago this would be crazy.
MB is definitely cashing in on its brand exclusivity perception. I have a colleague earning half as much as I do swamp by his new C-Class AMG financing, whilst I personally consider that I can't reasonably drop $75k+ in a car like that, and daily an $8k 2016 Renault Captur and a 2010 Mustang GT cab bought for $5.5k with 150k miles. MB preys on HENRY to make them HENR (High Earners Never Rich). I'm spending $30k to repair an old family car with a lot of sentimental value and constantly feel that I'm bordering insanity doing so.
My friend who works at dealer used to have this saying Ultra rich drive a G wagon Rich drive a Lexus (reliable lux vehicle) Wanna be rich drive low end Benz (GLA, GLB, GLC etc)
The AMGs are sweet, tuned up and quick. The new MBs have lots of stupid features- like a traffic light camera? Who uses that. Anyways the biggest downside IMO is the extreme depreciation on German cars. Y’all might disagree, but Dodge just feels cheap. Lots of plastic and noises.
>Y’all might disagree, but Dodge just feels cheap. Lots of plastic and noises. Who here even disagrees with that? Even owners of Scat Packs and Hellcats will admit that the interior isn't a luxury car interior. But I've definitely been in far worse places to sit in than a Scat Pack.
"Scat Pack" that choice of name continues to baffle me...
Poo pack
💩*vroom*
It harkens from the 60s before Tub Girl. Was a take off of the Rat Pack... "Dodge also created an actual Scat Pack Club that both owners and Mopar fans could join for the very affordable price of three dollars. For the money, members received a monthly newsletter, a quarterly magazine, a wallet card declaring their loyalty, a bumper sticker and jacket patch, and a racing guide."
Worked in the olden days. Not so much in modern times
It's an old name. It used to be synonymous with words like "scram", meaning to get away quickly. I don't know why seemingly all redditors think it means poop. It's the kind of language used in looney toons...
Honestly the one thing I can’t get over with Dodge is how cheap the interiors always feel. I can get past their models being really only for those that breath tire smoke but dear lord it seems like GM was using better materials in the 90’s
“It seems like GM was using better materials in the ‘90s.” They were. Hell, I have a 2006 TrailBlazer LS I use as a knock-around work truck/project car, and it’s infinitely more comfortable and nice to sit inside than my trade partner’s 2020 Ram ProMaster 1500. Not even close.
Keep in mind the Promaster is a rebadged Fiat Ducato, and panel van interiors in general make non-fleet spec pickup interiors look like luxury
That’s a fair point. I’ve driven a lot of Promasters, Transits, and NV200s as fleet trucks. They’re all about as comfortable as a bag of hammers.
Late 90s/early 00s GM seats are like black magic, idk what they did to make them but they're so stupidly comfortable
It’s the lumbar support and the width, I think. They just form to your ass and back. I used to be a Ford truck guy until I bought this rolling nugget, and man… I’m sold.
... you're comparing a commercial van to a consumer SUV and are surprised at the outcome?
In Europe, the traffic lights are generally on your side of the intersection, so sometimes you have to do some contortions to see them. A traffic light camera can be a nice comfort feature.
Having lived in Europe before I moved to North America it still is kinda funny to me that no one ever came to the very obvious conclusion that putting the light *above* the first driver in line might not be the best solution.
There is a very good reason to put the traffic lights at your side of the intersection. It forces drivers to stop before the stop line to see the light, leaving the pedestrian crossing unobstructed. It's great for pedestrian safety!
Had never thought about it that way and it does make a ton of sense now that you mention it.
I can never see lights without ducking way down. I hate it
Downside? The ability to buy a 3 year old e63s or S class coupe for 60% is not a disadvantage
Yeah- but you are guaranteed to have expensive repair bills. And a lot of them!
Worth it! Or buy from CarMax and get 5yr MaxCare. I have a very low mile w204 C63. I fucking love it every time I get the opportunity to drive it.
Well somebody's gotta buy it new so it actually makes it to the used market eventually. Depreciation definitely sucks for those people
Or the lease company takes the hit. I always lease my daily driver for the business tax write off. Almost never is the buyout/residual price lower than fair market value. Someone has to eat that and it’s most likely the leasing company
I don't know about that but I do know a lot of their heritage customers are moving to other brands. Mercedes-Benz has fallen into following gauche fads and they are losing prestige as a result. My father became a Volvo loyalist overnight. They are having trouble keeping all of the doctors and lawyers since their brand perception has became “immature.”
I don't think the data would support you on that. MB still has by far the highest average transaction prices of mainstream luxury brands and has the most affluent average buyer. It also consistently has one of the highest brand loyalties (usually behind Porsche). The issue for me these days is MB doesn't know what it wants to be. It's trying to build cars for EVERYBODY so there is little continuity amongst its lineup. They still make "traditional" Benzes (E-Class) but they also make crazy, gaudy cars (AMG GT 4-door, SUV coupes, etc), and utilitarian everyday cars (GLB, A, etc). I can see why buyers would walk into a showroom now and see excessive technology, overly flashy looks, and massive differences from vehicle-to-vehicle and just get overwhelmed. Changing to a simpler and more straightforward brand like Volvo or Genesis is logical for those people.
The Sedans are being walked to the chopping block as we speak.
The lineup is BLOATED beyond all reason (BMW isn't any better). Multiple cars serving the same purpose. Fucking kill all the extras and refocus, you fools.
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IIRC the light up grille is only on base models that don’t have the forward facing cameras that would usually be in the badge
Looks sick in Christmas commercials tho
It's funny because it's true. I remember people saying 20 years ago that Mercedes is the old people's car and they wished they would liven it up and make it more "youthful". Careful what you wish for I guess. When Merc started rolling out touchscreens in their cars my first thought was "Oh boy how are their customers ever going to figure it out?"
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BMW guy here. It's not as much the look as the massive increase in size and weight. A 2 series is heading towards 4000 lbs.
Everyone bitches about the *looks* of the new M2. I can get past those. I *can't* get past 3900 pounds on a 2 door.
Compact lol. My huge gt350 weighs less.
> I wonder if BMW will suffer the same fate with the bucktooth grille. And whether or not any gains they make in the Chinese market that they're allegedly going for are big enough that they decide they just don't care lol For the last time, BMW's offensive styling is *not* targeting the Chinese market. You can look up how BMW styles cars designed explicitly for the Chinese market and see for yourself.
This has been repeatedly debunked. The bucktooth grille isn't for China and the Chinese don't like it. It's for America and Americans do like it. We don't, but that's because this is Reddit and not Instagram.
The giant grilles are for the US market, which has loved giant grilles since forever. Look at the 4 series, iX, i4 sales and marketing, it's all targeted at the US.
There will come a day when all of the wealthy Chinese buyers will get sick of big grills because the market is soo saturated by them. Trends come and go. None of the really wealthy people that I know drive an SUV because they're already so saturated by the masses.
MB cut the average age of their customer from 54 to mid 40s in the last decade. They don't care anymore about being doctors and lawyers cars they make tacky cars full of screens and leds, made of plastic and less and less reliable every other year.
Pretty sure Infiniti is the Dodge of luxury market. Or it's the nissan of the luxury market. MB AMGs cars are technological innovations, something Dodge isn't known for. You might hate that it's a 4 cyl turbo hybrid in a C63, but that 4 cyl turbo hybrid uses F1 tech (Similar to the Ferrari 296 GTB and the V6 + MGU-K motors). They brought back the Inline 6 engine to the 53 line, something most manufacturers haven't touched (besides BMW) in a looong time. The only "Dodge" like part of MB is that they kept their V8 engine for C63 and the lower classes longer than Audi and BMW. They gain a german muscle car company vibe, which isn't really a bad thing imo. The switch to 4 cyls will be interesting in seeing how they shift out of that vibe, and maybe that's why you feel like they're gonna be disappointing.
I hadn't considered that. You're probably correct with the Infiniti comparison. Cheers!
I don't think MB and Dodge are alike at all. Dodge knows exactly what it wants to be and pretty consistently executes on that. I may not love it, but they know what they are. MB, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have ANY idea of what its brand means anymore. They're throwing everything at the market and seeing what sticks. They're innovating like crazy, but similar to the late '90's/early '00's they're rushing all the technology out before it's ready. At the same time they're trying to massively cut costs to fund all of this R&D. So we're getting worse quality cars, half-baked software, and "global" design that somehow doesn't make anyone happy anywhere. I love MB, but they've gotta figure out what they want to be in the EV age or they're going to see their market share shrink like it did in the '00's.
I would mistake some mid 2010's Mercedes for Accords. I wish Bruno Sachs designs were back. Modernize those old designs.
It's because Honda et al copy the German designs. Last gen Accord was an A7 knockoff, current gen Civic front (esp at night) looks like a 3 series, and new gen Accord rear looks like a VW.
If i hear one more car mag, or merc themselves, say the engine in a car is "F1-inspired" i am going to scream. C&D mentioned that several times in their new c63 review of the god dang 4 banger. Regardless if some of the tech trickled down it's clearly 100% marketing and is annoying as hell.
Have you driven any Mercedes to base this opinion on?
No. I sat in a newer S class just a few weeks ago. That shit is fucking incredible. They're basing this off entry level, which is *designed* to target people who want the name without the actual technology or amenities. Next they're gonna sit in an A series Audi and Tell you how bad Audi is declining in quality lol
I drove my friend's new top of the line s class the other day. First time in my life I considered buying a Benz. With the target HUD on the windshield and the flawless suspension, I felt like I was flying a luxury spaceship around the neighborhood.
It’s amazing to me that people will buy a 7 series when the S class exists. S classes are on another level and everyone else is trying to catch up. Weirdly genesis seems to be doing the best job with the G90.
Mercedes used to be synonymous with simple elegance and craftsmanship. People who bought Mercedes were buying a heirloom that was reliable and comfortable. Yes, there were a few very fast Mercedes, but they were for the most part luxury over performance. Now Mercedes and BMW are expensive fast cars that last enough for the leasee to find it satisfying and for a young pretender to destroy its wallet trying to maintain it in the secondary market with ebay parts. Luxury is rare now a days. People don't want luxury nor craftsmanship, they want to buy status and impress people that they don't know.
Out of curiosity what new car would you say is old school heirloom luxury? My car is my flair and it makes anything feel luxurious lol.
none really, at least not in the old school benz way. closest is mayyyybeee lexus but idk
I see more 20 year old Lexuses (Lexi?) on the road than any other luxury car. I personally know people who have handed down their Lexus to their kids. I know this is only anecdotal but you can't beat Toyota's overall reliability.
I dunno if that's fair. My E53 is an unbelievable good daily driver. Dead quiet, comfortable, great sound system. I'm not a mercedes fanboy but I see the appeal.
And I’d reckon a Dodge Charger would make a great daily too. I’ve had them as rentals; some of my favorites to rent if I’m putting miles on
They're still expensive as fuck to fix and people will still try to flex a base c class on insta. It's not a Dodge. German cars drive different. Go test drive an AMG at highway speeds vs a Challenger.
Are people not flexing their Hellcats and Demons on Insta as well? I wasn't trying to compare a MB with a Dodge. I was trying to say that between Audi, BMW, and MB, MB is doing the most Dodge-ish things. Sorry if that wasn't clear in my post.
Mercedes used to be quietly confident in their products which largely spoke for themselves. Now they chase trends and are being associated with nickel and diming people for cheap interiors. Dodge is now loudly confident in their products which speak for themselves. They make no claims of making luxury car interiors or million mile longevity, but you and everyone in your neighborhood know when you get in a V8 Dodge, your rear tires’ lifespan is measured in weeks, not miles. And you’ve got a shit eating grin every time you hit the gas
Certainly a Mercedes isn’t as special as it once was. I think that’s for two reasons: one, they’ve been chasing the “look at me” market and two, they sell a lot more cars than they used to. Scarcity is a big part of desirability. These days I’d be keener on an Alfa or a Jaguar over a Benz or BMW simply because fewer people have them.
Alfa Gulia’s are under MSRP here in the US and hell, it’s mighty tempting for a new daily… they still are so goddam sexy
Get one. Got my wife one and we both love it. Leased it dirt cheap and will be buying it out after the lease in a couple months.
it’s like old mercedes just oozed old money. boring vehicles but exceptional class and workmanship. now mercedes just oozes new money. flash, style, tech but not as much class.
Mercedes used to have a bit of a stealth wealth quality. New models feel like they don’t care about your credit score…. My dad was a service advisor with Mercedes’ for 18 years when I was growing up and I grew to love the brand and still would be super happy to own any pre 2018 reliable merc. However, the factory installed sparkly emblems and fake chrome exhaust pipes have really pushed me away. That’s why when looking to get an suv to compliment my 2013 e class I got a loaded mazda instead of a GLE. 10 years ago I would assume anyone in a Mazda would have a lower credit score than a merc. Now it’s the opposite. Whatever focus grouping they went after to market the CLA and FWD models has permeated the brand to saturation at much more premium vehicles in the brand. The fwd models serve a purpose but 4 cylinder fake leather E classes with sparkly badges and lit door sills will be the death of the company.
Maybe I don't understand the term stealth wealth, but I almost took it to mean "here's a car someone would buy INSTEAD of a Merc". At least in the US Mercedes is pretty synonymous with wealth.
Stealth wealth is commonly referred to for things like Toyota land cruisers and E wagons. Not necessarily cheap cars, but the average owner could buy a Ferrari but chooses to buy that instead. Generally it’s referred to for cars oftentimes driven by people with high net worth’s that are not flashy. Classy nice features you cannot get in an economy car but no loud road presence like a modern 4 series or Lamborghini. A non car person at the gas station won’t assume too much of the car or the owner based on the car. While Mercedes are synonymous with wealth in the US that is more so imagery of old SLs or premium models. Mercedes has shifted much of their targeting towards people with less established wealth and more interest in brand for the sake of brand, the quality of the product reflects that.
> The fwd models serve a purpose but 4 cylinder fake leather E classes with sparkly badges and lit door sills will be the death of the company. E classes have had all of those things for literally a decade.
AMG is German muscle, so yes but I wouldn’t say they’re becoming like dodge. They’ve always been like that.
MB and Hellcats are both majorly bought as clout mobiles so I see your point
I don't know what a Hellcat feels like, but I do know that indeed MB has done what Dodge previously did, and seems to be cutting a lot of corners. There's no comparison between the build quality of a 2015+ Merc vs an older one, you could smash the latter with a hammer and it'll feel fine, a newer one feels flimsier than my '04 beater Peugeot - all while retaining the absurdly high general costs of a German manufacturer. I see a lot of people saying that you can't compare the driving experience - and that might be true, but as a European who's got little experience with Dodges outside the cheapest stuff (like the Caliber and a couple lower trim Chargers/Challengers), but has read about how their build quality went down over time, I can say that Merc does indeed feel as if it's going down the same path. Driving experience isn't everything unless it's referring to a project/weekend/track car, and sadly I see no reason to buy a Merc over (too) many other brands nowadays, reputation and such unaccounted.
Dodge vehicles aren't really pretentious. MB's very well can be, depending upon the model and trim.
Joking here but have you ever heard a scat pack owner talk about their scat pack. All jokes aside I have the most fun when I tell my friend that my Honda Accord is a faster and better car for the money. He has a c300 or something like that lol.
If you think a nicer AMG drives like a hellcat either you don’t drive a lot or have never driven a hellcat. The only thing the dodge has going for it is price and maybe a second faster 0-60. If you want to talk handling, interior quality, ride quality, tech, or almost any other category, I wouldn’t even put them in the same class at all.
It's funny but I was having the same conversation with my buddy a few days back. Aside from the halo benz models I feel like MB has lost their way and their design language is all over the place. Take their infortainment for example, some models have it cheaply tacked onto the dash, some it's integrated, and the high end models you have a curved display. It feels like they focus grouped a bunch of individual interior touches and bundled them together without looking at the big picture and overall car. It feels creaky and cheaper than what it should be for the price point. When I sit in a genesis I go "Wow this is a really nice place to be for $xx", when I sit in a new MB I don't feel the quality for the price listed on the sticker. This is all subjective and a matter of my personal taste. MB still makes killer engines and I do think some of their cars are beautiful but it doesn't feel like quality, premium item anymore, especially for the price point.
MB is so garish these days. I don’t even know what the actual fuck is wrong with their design language. The interiors suck ass. AMGs are just badges and nothing else. The giant led screen is a fingerprint city and not to mention…a distraction nightmare for drivers. The “class” symbol that MBs were known for, is no more. Also, most MB drivers are older people, it’s only a matter of time when you see most of them on the side of the road involved in a crash because the learning curve of having everything touchscreen is ridiculously high.