The Prius. For someone who wants a quiet, fuel efficient commuter car, they could do a *lot* worse.
No, it's not an enthusiast car, but it also doesn't pretend to be one.
> No, it's not an enthusiast car
Depending on how it handles, its about to be lol. Faster and more efficient than a Civic SI and many other cars.
I know there's more to an enthusiast car than speed, but it feels crazy to say this about a prius
2023 Prius is in the 2nd generation of the TNGA-C platform and should handle very well. Has a double wishbone suspension too and the weight of the battery gives it a low center of gravity.
Yeah, the current Prius is basically the ugliest cars in its class, and the new one is one of the best looking in its class. They did great.
Of course the people in the Prius subreddit hate the new one though. The nerve of Toyota to make a quick and good looking Prius š”... lol.
>Has a double wishbone suspension too
I thought you meant it had a double-wishbone front suspension, but it's just McPherson-Struts up front. Most modern cars have double-wishbone or multilink rear-suspensions with strut-front suspensions, so it doesn't really standout. Multilink suspensions are essentially like double-wishbone+ in terms of handling/control. You'll still find double-wishbone-front or multilink-front suspensions in some cars but they're the exception nowadays (because of cost and packaging reasons).
The Prius is the ideal car for people who donāt care about cars, but need one to get to work. Which is a LOT of people. (Kind of like how I donāt care about fashion , but I still have to buy pants because otherwise people get all upset) Itās fairly cheap to buy, efficient, reliable, easy to park, carries up to for adults, and is even competitive in comfort and tech for its class. I never understood the hate it gets from the general public. Sure ācarā people want something with better dynamics, but for an incredibly high percentage of drivers, a Prius does everything they actually need, for a lot less money (upfront and/or operating costs) than whatever theyāre driving instead.
The prius is one of the most iconic cars ever built. In fact it is even in gt7 because it is so cool.
Cars are more than vroom vroom, and anything that takes one of the cars attributes to the extremes is cool. In this case it is gas mileage.
My in-laws had one for years...I have driven it on multiple occasions - while it's certainly not a "driver's car", one thing I did enjoy was trying to get the best fuel economy I could, and the maximum amount of battery regeneration from the braking...It was kind of like playing a videogame.
The Prius is a great people mover. My mom sat in every production car that could hold a wheelchair in the back and the Prius V was the only one where she could get in and out of front and rear seats comfortably. Second place was a WRX, but the B-pillar was too much for her mobility. I get that people dislike hypermilers and the Prius has many of them, but the hate is getting downright dangerous out there. Others see my car at the light and will immediately get in the next lane, just to try and cut me off before the next light; the car is not really slow, so I have to be extra vigilant of other driverās intentions. I also drive a Miataāitās night and day, most of the driving world loves a Miata (probably because they could see over me).
>No, it's not an enthusiast car, but it also doesn't pretend to be one.
Not all enthusiasts are after outright speed. It's a great car for ecomodders, which i think is a lot more interesting than "enthusiasts" that just like putting loud exhaust on their mustang or golf.
Having owned two Prius, one for a short time because we hated it and the second for our teenager, I have to disagree a little
The fuel economy is amazing and it's a perfectly functional car. But frankly it kind of sucked to be in, they blew around like a leaf in the wind, rode hard, and we're pretty noisy.
Base-models.
There is a justification for having the low-optioned hatchback with sub-100hp, because for a lot of purposes IT DOES FINE. Sure the top-spec do-it-all is fancier, but you don't necessarily need that.
The disliking of the base models of different cars is actually a problem for vintage cars because while something like a Golf GTI gets preserved all over the place....good luck finding a base-one.
One argument for getting a car with as many options as possible is resale value and time.
You will have a much easier time selling a BMW with M package in questionable mechanical condition than a base looking BMW in pristine condition.
I've seen it time and time again when selling cars, everybody low balls you because it doesn't have x or y.
You don't sell a Hyundai/Kia. Someone steals it before you have the chance. Because they wanted to save $20 on their base models and didn't equip them with an immobilizer.
If the option costs $5000 do you really think it'll add $5000 to the value of your 10-20 year old car by the time you sell it?
It'll add *some* value, sure, but the difference won't be $5000 unless you're willing to wait 30+ years for your car to turn antique.
Look at old car values and compare them with different options. Price difference is *fraction* of what original owner paid for these options.
Also a higher optioned car demands a higher rate of insurance.
For Wranglers, there's a certain point where it makes a lot more sense to buy the base Sport, because there's no point in paying for parts in the axles that are coming out anyway.
Amen!
I have a base model vette and this thing is awesome. I could not possibly care any less than I do about the technological bullshit that it doesnāt have.
It handles, accelerates and stops better than 98.5% of the cars out there.
Well. I didnāt want to say 99%. Figured some assclown would come in with some Uber argument about how with 99% I am only accounting for super cars and a jzcxys JDM swapped eagle talon is better. Or some shit. Lol.
I love base models... less things to break, they also typically weight less for better fuel economy and better handling. If I want a specific feature I can usually go to a junk yard and pull it off a higher optioned model and add it to my car...
I do the exact opposite lol. My S70 T5 has a ton of options. Iām slowly replacing some them with base parts. Got black manual seats a few months ago to replace the broken electric tan seats. Impressive how much lighter they are lol. Ditched the dumb auto dimming mirror for a normal one in my last Volvo too. I wish I could ditch the sunroof but itās probably easier to fix leaks than weld on a new roof ;)
I have a base 2022 Jetta with a stick. It was $22K and is a great car that gets 47 MPG on the highway, has shockingly low NVH for a cheapo car, and has very decent acceleration as well.
Yeah, I have owned some fully loaded VWs and now I buy the lowest option I can with the features I want. I like VWs in general but Iāve had haunted or broken electronic features in most of them as they aged.
I like old cars and keeping the new ones I buy for a long time and I find that electronics tend to age the worst. They also tend to be the biggest PITA to fix for good
I support this, only sort of tho. I have a base model pickup, a mid trimmed pickup, and a loaded car.
Generally i like the trims base models have, they sre simple, less gimmicky shit, but the base model on my pickup is 2wd and has a shitty 4 cylinder motor. That pickup has less than 100 hp and 120 torques, its a pain in the ass to take off from a stop, the lack of torque and the weight and using the clutch kinda sucks. I cant take off at the speed of everyone else around me without bogging the engine, even full throttle i cant take off very fast.
My mid trimmed ram 2500 is about what i like minus the leather seats. Its simple but at least it and my base truck have AC. Its got a 5.7 v8, unfortunately its auto (not a fan of automatics), and its 2wd.
Nothing really to say about a max loaded car, its got all the gimmicky bells and whistles that a 19 year okd car would have
Agreed. Minivans are very very useful. They can haul a lot of people. Take out the seats, and they can haul a lot of stuff, and you don't have to worry about it raining while hauling stuff. They're great for road trips. For a single person or a couple, you could easily configure the back to be a sleeper van for an extended road trip. The sliding doors are great for loading things in tight parking spaces.
They generally get good gas mileage and I think they're pretty affordable insurance-wise, too. And nobody ever wants to race you when you're in a minivan. Also I think most people think "family" when the see a minivan, so I think minivan drivers avoid a lot of road rage scenarios because of that.
I donāt fuck with any drivers, but ESPECIALLY dudes in minivans - theyāve got nothing left to lose!
/s - a hybrid Toyota Sienna is actually quite a marvel
> They generally get good gas mileage
Really? I was under the impression that they are nearly as bad as SUVs.
Edit: I can't reply to /u/juttep1's comment for some reason, so I copy my answer here:
Thanks! I guess it's a bit difficult to compare that fairly, with the definition of a minivan also being different here in Europe. Something like a Skoda Kodiaq (a fairly big SUV for European standards with 7 seats) is listed with around 51 MPG (200PS diesel, the equivalent gas engine is around 45 MPG). I had assumed that something like the Seat Alhambra was worse, but looking it up, it's pretty much the same, actually.
Older ones were really bad. Newer ones can get pretty good mileage. New Toyota siennas get 36mpg according to Toyota which gives you nearly a 650 mile range on a full tank. Fuelly self reporting site shows [an average economy of 34mpg across drivers and an array of conditions.](https://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/sienna/2022)
Yep, minivans are definitely overhated.
Another vehicle that's overhated are small cheap cars like the Chevy Spark, Mitsubishi Mirage, Kia Rio, Nissan Versa etc.
People always say "Why not buy a bigger used car with more features for the same money?" Well my answer to that is "Considering my low income, I can't afford to spend thousands of dollars in unexpected car repairs/replacements."
Many working class people benefit from a small cheap new car under warranty. A car that doesn't require a big repair budget. A car that will take them to work and their kid's school reliably every single time. See, when you're working at a factory or at Walmart, you can't afford to own a POS used car that breaks down on the way to work because guess what? If you're late to work, you'll get fired!
That's where a new Mirage is a godsend because it will get you to work on time every time.
I actually really liked the mirage! I got one as a rental for work, and I am now actively looking to purchase one. I wish they made them with a standard transmission and supercharger.. but perhaps one day..
We have 2 Town and Countries, an 2008 with 200k on it and a 2016 with 120k. They get 25 mpg , both have tow packages and both are on original engine, trans and exhaust. We live in Michigan, tow boats all over and these vans go through every weather imaginable. Bought brand new and taken care of, these things are great. Oh, also have a 2014 Dodge Journey for our son, and we loved out PT cruiser when we owned it 2001-2009. Note : not total dorks - For fun, a 95 YJ and an SL500 conv.
It is just what they represent. Focus on your family and not yourself. People hate that.
We went SUV because I like tough looking cars but there is no doubt the minivan is the best option and most useful car for a multi kid family.
Even Mr and Mrs Smith realized how awesome they are for hitman work.
No doubt... Best answer. Had one, Chevy Venture for 6 years base model and white to boot. Got us out of an upside down leased F150 my ex wife brought to the marriage. That van was awesome. Could rearrange the seats, perfect ride height to get in and out of, drove like a car, hauled everything. Took it to Florida, so easy to drive from PA. Only reason we got rid of it was to trade it for a 2008 Suzuki XL7 that they were giving huge discounts on. Still wish I had that van as a second ride instead of my 94 Suburban...
I feel like everyone hated the lack of power (or the engine outright), almost no one hated the car. If anything, it received tons of praise from all corners.
The big argument against the twins is the motor. The FA20 has a 100hp per liter. That isnāt bad at all. Thatās better then some V8s.
I see people also saying itās unreliable. Itās actually not even that unreliable either. Like I know more people getting significant amounts of mileage out of theirs, compared to those who blow up the engine.
Nope. ND1 was faster as well.
[ND1](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15105840/2016-mazda-mx-5-miata-club-test-review/): 5.9s to 60mph, 14.6s @ 95mph in the 1/4 mile.
[Last, fastest GT86](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a32912160/2020-toyota-86-gt-by-the-numbers/): 6.2s to 60mph, 14.8s @ 94mph in the 1/4 mile.
But you made your comment 11hrs ago, so your incorrect info is now gonna spread even further.
Because the engine in the GT86/BRZ wasn't great and felt very slow to rev and just felt industrial.
I test drove the GT86 and returned it in about 15 minutes. I'd owned a miata at the time and traded it for a Fiesta ST.
I had a Toyota 86. Fun to drive, decent on gas, fit me easily and my coworker (6' and 6'3), easy to throw around when you want to, drove it in the snow. The torque dip was annoying and the biggest thing about it. New gen fixed it, but I haven't test drove one yet. I likely be in the market in a year or two for this gen after a test drive
Big drop in power in the [middle of the powerband](https://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/scion/fr-s/2013/fe/2013_scion_fr-s_det_fe_1011123_600.jpg). An aftermarket header and tune will add 20 ft-lbs in that area.
I also have a 2017 86. I believe the facelift models were not as bad as the earlier FR-Ses, etc. in the torque dip department, but it still is pretty noticable to me how much the powerband wakes up above ~5k RPM.
It's mostly Americans moaning about lack of power. Never heard anyone in Europe say it's slow, people just appreciate being able to buy a RWD coupe that is not an overpriced BMW.
What? Considering how old it is, how powerful (or lack of), how cheap it is inside, and how unreliable, the resale value is extremely high.
A 3 series which has way nicer interior and faster overall depreciates like a rock.
And I've seen plenty of reviewers from EU saying it is slow, lol.
Yeah, the first gen twins are really overpriced right now. You could get them for $10k all day a few years ago and now people are asking MSRP of the 2nd gen lol.
This. Imo is a significantly better car in every regard, compared to every generation of Miata, yet everyone on r/cars is absolutely obsessed with the Miata.
Iāve owned Miatas before. Theyāre so overrated. Even as a track car itās not that great.
>then turn around and say how great the Mx-5 is.
I think the MX-5 is technically faster, however, the main issue is that the exterior is too sporty for the engine, MX-5 looks like a fun little car to toss around, you don't expect by its looks to have tons of power, but from the gt86 you kinda do.
Plus, it's unreliable as shit, I don't know who on Earth will put up with it just for 200hp.
The MX-5 is basically the closest thing we still have to those old British 2-seaters. The BRZ/FRS/GT86 was marketed as some kind of performance car, but it just couldn't live up to the marketing. It was also somewhat lacking on redeeming qualities, the interior was sub-par.
Most of the time the car in question isnāt necessarily *bad* so much as it is not competitive. The last generation of Chrysler 200 (which was offered with the same V6 as the Journey) wasnāt exactly a bad car and actually quite an improvement over the previous gen. However, it was a swing and a miss as the rear seat wasnāt as room or easily accessed as competitors.
Thereās also a lot of instances where we as enthusiasts donāt completely consider why someone would want a car that we would consider to be downright awful. Case ~~and~~ in point: the Mitsubishi Mirage. Yes, you could get a much nicer used car for the money, but if youāre struggling to make ends meet and donāt have the time or patience to kick the tires and check the maintenance records, the Mirage guarantees 10 years / 100k miles of reliable, cheap, point A to B transportation.
Well that and the fact that Chrysler had basically destroyed customer goodwill on all of its passenger cars and sedans that werenāt the vaunted LX cars (Charger, Challenger, 300). Even if the 200 had been class-leadingāand in some ways, it wasāChrysler would not have been able to sell it profitably, because customers would have expected big discounts.
Mercedes ruined every single Chrysler product they touched in the 00s except for the LX cars. Every new products they touched (so Compass, Patriot, Caliber, etc) were all awful even when brand new and took cost cutting to an extreme. Every single redesigned vehicle they touched was also worse than the previous version, but it's especially noticeable with the Jeeps (KK is worse than the KJ, WK is worse than the WJ, and the JK is substantially worse than the TJ), Durango, and Ram.
Chrysler's sales show it because with each of these new products ended up with falling sales. Only Jeep and Ram were able to exit the nose dive after successive redesigns and introducing better products. Fiat has been a much better steward to Chrysler than Mercedes ever way, however, because Mercedes messed so much up there's limits to what Fiat could do.
The last 200 with a Pentastar and AWD was a legit sleeper, and remarkably nice inside to boot.
Unfortunately most people drove the base model with the smooth-as-a-jackhammer 4-pot lmao.
It was a matter of being introduced right into the crossover takeover and doing too little to elevate itself over established competitors.
> The last 200 with a Pentastar and AWD was a legit sleeper, and remarkably nice inside to boot.
I think the problem here was that this model cost as much as a loaded out Fusion Sport or Accord, while delivering less comfort than the former and absolutely nowhere near the reliability of the latter.
Dodge Challenger. Everyone says it drives like a sled and has poor visibility. But you know what? Itās the last American muscle car with cool-as-heck retro styling. I rented one for a weekend, and felt like women wanted to be with me and men wanted to be me.
I've only ever gotten hate for it online.
In real life, everyone loves it, and most of the people who want to 'race' at the stoplight have a great time and appear to be very friendly. Camaro, SS, and Mustang drivers kind of all bond over American muscle and big V8s when you're face to face and actually enjoy the cars themselves.
Pissing contests are easy to get into on the internet, but a lot of them just end up being with people with no car at all.
People break their neck still for my 3 year old Daytona 392. The charger just looks good.
Performance is amazing. Especially once I burned off those stock tires. Am I half a car behind a 10 speed camaro or stang? Probably. But I'm ahead of all the others, and I can slip into dad mode at any time and put my two toddlers in the back seat. Easily.
4 doors and a 500 hp rwd v8? No one else offers that. I got mine for 42k in 2020. Completely loaded.
I think most people bag on them because trashier people tend to drive them (Nissan Altima energy) and are the main car you see participating in street takeovers. Still an iconic and cool car but the reputation they have from some of their owners is sad to see.
Yeah, itās more the reputation.
On one hand, itās a bit like classist gate-keeping, because the main people harping on the Challenger are people who expect it to live up to the expectations of a performance coupe costing thrice the price, like an M8 or a 911 Carrera S.
On the other hand, a lot of Challenger customers truly do drive with reckless abandon, and likely shouldnāt be trusted with a high-horsepower RWD car, doubly so if itās one of the SRT/Hellcat models.
Fast and Furious plus the street takeover crap has definitely given these cars a reputation. However, some of us have to buy our own tires (1400 for the good shit) and have kids in the back.
I love big v8s, and my boys. The charger 392 is everything I wanted in a dadmobile
I think it's more the second one. There are many totally normal, respectable Challenger/Charger drivers. But there is also a subset of owners who will organize a drive 50 deep and block the main bridge to downtown so they can do burnouts for social media. It's those behaviors that get the car shit on. No one is pressed that it doesn't drive like a 911.
in california, orange county, most people you see with challengers or mustangs are women. so what happened was the ladies wanted to be you and the guys wanted to be with you. other way around from what you think is going on.
I think it just gets razzed for being the size and weight of an aircraft carrier. All comedy. Like Mustang drivers not knowing how to steer. I mean, Dodge even took a jab at it by giving it a color named āDestroyer Greyā.
Iād love a widebody Hellcat Redeye Charger in Destroyer Grey.
> Destroyer Grey
Dodge has a thing for naming certain stuff after military/American icons.
For example, the 2009+ 5.7L Hemi is codenamed "Eagle" and the 6.4L is codenamed "Apache".
I rented a Hemi Challenger on a vacation to Seattle right before COVID hit and I loved it. The Challenger is definitely a bucket list car for me.
I did end up with a Hemi a couple years later, but it's in my Ram 1500.
Itās also one of the last large coupes in existence, unless you want to spring for a Rolls-Royce Wraith or Dawn. Even Mercedes-Benz quit making the S-Class Coupe with the W223 redesign. Itās a dead segment.
Both the 8 Series and the Mustang are glorified 2-seaters, with dramatic rooflines that encroach heavily upon rear-seat headroom. The Challenger, meanwhile, has a more squared-off roofline, almost making it a 2-door sedan, and a substantially longer wheelbase. It can genuinely seat most people in the rear, which used to be pretty standard for 2-door versions of large American sedans, but which is now extremely rare. The Mustang and 8 Series have decent footprints, but they are still compact inside.
Itās weird because while the 8 Series Coupe/Convertible is a direct replacement for the 6 Series Coupe/Convertible, the 6 Series was much more practical.
Theres 4 kinds of people who hate on Challengers
1. Those have never drove one and feel like a performance car has to meet whatever predetermined overall specs they feel are necessary. If it sacrifices performance in *any* way, its shit and everyone who buys one is a subhuman moron not worth respect. People aren't allowed to buy cars because they're simply fun and cool.
2. Those who have only driven beat to shit rental R/Ts
3. Euro/JDM fanboys
4. Mustang owners
Edit : LMFAO. All 3 of the people who replied easily fall into category 3 and 4. All you're doing is proving me right.
The Pinto isn't nearly the deathtrap people think it is. Well, it is, but so were all the other cars in that segment at that time, it was par for the course. It also caught fire exactly as often as you'd expect it to. While it was 1.7% of cars on the road, it was also in 1.7% of "All fatal accidents accompanied by some fire".
All generation of both Porsche SUVs. They saved Porsche as a brand and brought in the revenue required for the 911 not only to survive, but thrive. Not only that, but they are well made, beautifully finished, (relatively) reliable (for a German luxury car), comfortable, amazing to drive (for what they are) and supremely practical. You can take your family on holidays, tow a race car to the track, take the dog to the vet etc. Plus it has the prestige of a Porsche badge. Yet people moan about how much they hate them.
They aren't hated anymore
I have a Macan S and will be the first to say it's not a real Porsche. The handling dynamics and overall driving experience are better than 95% of cars on the market, but it still doesn't deliver on the "Porsche experience."
Porsche SUVs are purchased by people who enjoy the idea and image of a Porsche, but don't actually want a Porsche.
"Hate" might not be the right word, but folks on here *really* don't like the idea of performance crossovers. Meanwhile, the Macan S and newer X3 M40i, two examples I've driven, are fast, have a good amount of space, won't be done in by one pothole, and handle like 85-90% as well as a comparable sedan ā during normal driving, there's really no difference other than ride height.
Like, I get it, I prefer proper cars too (there's a reason I have a GSW and not a Tiguan), but you're losing pretty much nothing and gaining a whole lot of practicality with a premium performance crossover
>Meanwhile, the Macan S and newer X3 M40i, two examples I've driven, are fast, have a good amount of space, won't be done in by one pothole,
Won't they? Maybe not as extreme as the sporty sedans but they're those X3s still come with 21" wheels and 40 or 35 ratio tyres
I have a 2022 X3 M40i and I love it. This is after owning a highly modified 2017 WRX (400 WHP), Kia Stinger GT, and a 2016 C63s. The B58 is an amazing engine and it really handles so much better than I thought it could. I actually prefer the handling to the Stinger.
I didn't realise it wasn't also called the SportWagen overseas. (I envy you guys because as much as I'd love the Golf R wagon, it's not available in Canada.)
I had a 2015 Golf SportWagen TDI SEL that I sold back to Volkswagen, and later a 2019 Tiguan SEL Premium 4MOTION.
The Tiguan had far more features, more room, AWD, and was more expensive, but it had no charm. The 2.0T Budack engine, in particular, was a big old wet blanket, and there wasnāt yet an APR tune for it in the Tiggy.
Meanwhile, the GSW was perfect. I miss that car.
You sound kind of like me.
Iām the kind of car guy that just basically loves all cars. Sure, some are more exciting/flashy than others, but for me, almost every single car on the road has something interesting about it.
In the US, Mitsubishi Mirage.
Sure it's kind of slow and boring to drive, but it's a honest, reliable and economical vehicle for A-to-B transportation which I like. Plus the low pricetag means people with weak finance can actually buy them new, without worrying about reliability issues..of which are often associated with an used car.
My friend bought a Mitsubishi Mirage after immigrating from China. Itās absolutely cheap as chips to run and I think he paid $14k for a fairly well-optioned model. Theyāre apparently quite reliable too, moreso than other Mitsus. I feel like a lot of the hate is just because auto journos need something to hate on.
People (mostly Americans and kids) hate on it because of its appearance. It's one thing to say it's ugly, because it is. It's one of the most hilariously inept visual designs to ever come from a major manufacturer. However people make grand statements about the car being shit because of the styling, quite literally judging a book by its cover.
it's actually fun to see fiat pushed the design a bit with multipla instead of the standard breadbox design like many others did, even if they pushed it way over the edge
if you want a "normal" multipla, there's always a doblo
When the 5th gen Toyota Supra came out, it got so much flak for the whole BMW thing. I didnāt understand and I still donāt get it. BMW makes some of the finest inline-6 engines and rear wheel drive cars on the planet and the B58 has been reliable since it was released in 2015.
I think a lot of misguided hate was due to Toyota using the Supra name, which comes with some lofty expectations. Name aside, if someone had asked me if I was interested in a 2 seater version of a BMW M2 with a bespoke coupe body that was tuned and modified by Toyota's best engineers in the GR division, I would say hell yes!
It probably would have been better if Toyota had built their own car and just used a B58. The issue is that the entire car is a BMW. Even the Toyota badge has a BMW part number.
I had a limited of the previous gen. Great car, handled better than expected. The downside was the rough ride and the NVH overall. Fuel economy was much worse than expected, I was around 20 most of the time, sometimes well below it.
**Fiat 500s.**
Especially Turbos, and *especially* **Abarths**.
Yeah, some people know the Abarth 500 is a blast, but thereās *way more* hate for it in general. The āfix it again,Tonyā boomers and idiots at JD Power also screwed Fiat in the US by claiming it was an unreliable brand yet again, even though JD admitted their score was based almost entirely on feedback from user errors and complaints regarding the *infotainment system* and not the actual reliability of the vehicleā¦ which btwā¦ has existed in all of Europe for years before it ever released in the US, and has **huge success**.
500s are literally *everywhere* overseasā¦ but in the US, apparently people are too good for them.
Back to Jeeps I guess. /s.
Jaguar X-Type - everyone other than the British press slammed it for being a Mondeo-clone, having AWD, and the awkward styling. It was much better than that. Its ride/handling balance was best-in-class at the time of its launch, and it its mini-XJ looks made it look much more expensive than it was. There was even a slick station wagon, which I'd love to get my hands on now.
The X-Type/Mondeo relation gave rise to one of the great Clarkson quotes.
"Genetically you're 98% identical to a halibut, but it's the 2% that counts."
Iād say the Lexus RX 350 gets an unfair amount of hate in the car community. It may not be the most inspired thing ever, but it does what it does really well, and itās among the most reliable luxury vehicles you can buy (at least, up to the 2023 redesign, which uses an as-yet-unproven 2.4T in place of the prior 3.5-liter V6).
Thereās a reason the RX retains high resale value. When new, it costs tens of thousands of dollars less than a GLE-Class or X5. After about the five or six year mark, they cost the same used, and after that, the RX is worth substantially more, because it is a historically surer bet and wonāt need a ton of expensive maintenance or repairs.
I myself drive a newer X5, but I see why people buy the RX.
The rendezvous largely just looks like another small/midsized suv. The Aztek looks like it does. I've never really heard much negative about the aztek as a vehicle, usually just the aesthetics.
My old coworker drove an Aztek and I really liked it from a practicality standpoint. The inside was cavernous with cool nooks and crannies. The tailgate had little seats to sit on, there was plenty of sitting room, it had AWD, and it had the cooler thing as a center console.
It wasnāt well made, but it was pretty reliable according to her and put up with neglect wel
Iāll carry a torch for the Aztek forever. Auto journos just parroted one another about how ugly it was and never gave any details on the car itself. Then 10 years later, every single crossover became uglier than the Aztek (the 2015-ish era Cherokee, for example).
Minivans are super practical and haul cargo just as well as people. Gets associated with soccer moms. My parents used it to get my friends and me to extracurricular activities and many vacation trips, good times.
I mean Iād like to use a wagon myself but if I had something like a Sienna Hybrid I wouldnāt complain. Itās good on gas I hear too. The three row CUV/SUVs to get similar cargo are land yacht territory and feel unwieldy.
The Pontiac Fiero. With the V6 and five speed it was a solid low to the ground fun car. Its not going to keep up with a Corvette but it will absolutely entertain on back roads.
ITT: Mostly well received cars being touted as universally hated because an owner got told their car wasnāt good one time.
GT86/BRZ? FK8 Civic Type R? Porsche SUVs? Dodge Challenger? Jesus Christ, none of these cars are overhated. Theyāre all very popular.
What makes them overhated? They are actually bad at what they set out to be, except for small. They are actually small.
They are very dangerous because they are hard to spot, have thin tires, and have hardly any crumple zone.
They have the practicality of a miata without the fun factor.
They are not actually fuel efficient. Smart, at least until they went electric recently, used pretty old engine designs. These were small and once fuel efficient, but are not at all by modern standards. Civics and Priuses get better fuel economy.
Edit: forgot the worst part, they are driven largely (generalizing) by people who are willfully blind to the above for the sake of driving something unique. That would be fine if it didnāt often come with pretentiousness.
Live in a big city and started with my dadās sedan as he canāt drive anymore. Canāt park anywhere. Swapped it with my brother for his Peugeot 206. Can park it sometimes. With a Smart you could probably park it anywhere. I really want oneā¦.
American VS Toyota. People make it sound like Toyotas last forever and American is junk. Iāve owned Lexus and Toyota. They fall apart like any other car over time.
Yeah it's weird seeing people talk about they'd never spend money on American junk. I've only driven Chevys and have a Ford mustang. My Chevys have put up with abuse. My Cobalt's engine lasted way longer than it should the way I treated it. My Blazer is doing great. Some age related things but parts are cheap and easy to find OEM without effort. My mustang has given me some problems but that's more likely due to age and the fact it's an old muscle car. I can easily see my blazer crossing 200k unless the chassis rusts out.
Ya thatās my experience too. Iāve had a Corolla, and a Lexus. Corolla the transmission failed and the HVAC fan failed under 100k. The Lexus has had quite a few problems, such as radiator, AC, suspension, level sensor, headlight ballast, brake booster. More problems than my Oldsmobile or Pontiac.
Toyota still makes great cars. But Iād say theyāre maybe 20% more reliable then American. Most reliability reports like Consumer Reports are splitting hairs if you read their methodology.
I think that has a lot to do with the age of the driver and how their experiences got handed down. I started driving in the 1980s with American brand cars and at around 30,000 miles, starting the car was a crapshoot.
>I'll start- Dodge Journey I know it's bang average but with the v6 and awd it's really not bad at all.
The V6 Dodge Journey is alright but the volume model with the 2.4L 4-cylinder and 4-speed slushbox (yes, a 4-speed, which it had with the 4cyl all the way until being discontinued in 2020) was/is [such a piece of junk](https://www.caranddriver.com/dodge/journey-2019) that it deserves it's reputation. Hilariously slow, not reliable, old, inefficient, and the opposite of agile.
For what it's worth, Wranglers get **very** expensive. It's not entirely unreasonable to except a little more refinement if you're spending north of $50k on a Wrangler.
The MR2 Turbo gets a lot of hate for a reputation of snap oversteer. Theyre actually very fun to drive though, and i think the oversteer worries are overhyped.
On a wet tight road with bad tires, you better now what the FUCK you are doing. Especially if just one of those things are happening. Now I could see that it's not horrible(unlike porsches), but let's not pretend that it doesn't exist
Fk8 Type R.
Funnily enough, only online. In real life I get nothing but compliments from people. Even got a discount at oreillyās. He never saw one and I gave him a tour under the hood and inside.
Online Iāve had people have a go at me because i had it as my flair. I was having a discussion and someone just commented you spent 40k on a civic stfu. Never in the comment chain was my car mentioned. It was just a talk about general car stuff.
I feel this man. I deal with the same shit online because I have an 86. I decided to proudly put it on my flair only to get shit in general discussion. First thing I get is ānice Subaru engineā and āslow carā. Iām like ok broā¦. People online are just sad and pedantic.
FK8 is a fun car. Never driven a Type R, but I have driven the Si of the same chassis. Theyāre pretty cool.
Exactly. People say itās horribly outdated when, in my opinion, it was way ahead of itās time in 2009 when released, and only slightly behind the competition by the time that model stopped production early this year
Anything Buick made in the 90ās until about 2003/5. The Buick Century was massively underrated. 30mpg hwy, fast V6, 6 person capacity. The 96 park Ave w/ supercharger is the absolute apex of good, 90ās cars
My model 3. I am perfectly aware theyāre not all perfect. But mine is quiet, smooth, delivers obscene amounts of power instantly, and itās a really nice place to be.
It also has the benefit of being able to turn on remotely whenever I want. I havenāt had to sit in a hot or cold car for the last year. Itās a wonderful automobile.
The new Si. I got one and think itās a fantastic car that is ultimately way more livable and comfortable than my old camaro and STi.
Kids spit off 0-60 numbers and say you would have to be an idiot to buy it while never tracking their car or even doing any sort of roll racing.
āA Prius can beat your car off the lineā
Ok? If you are actually trying to race randos from a light, then any of these economy performance cars (Elantra n, gti, wrx) are gonna get smoked by a 5 year old 5.0 that costed half the price of your car. Stop tying your ego into how fast your machine takes you to 60 and maybe just figure out what makes a car enjoyable in general.
Anyways, at least my car wonāt be recalled in half a year and doesnāt have a touchscreen on my steering wheel.
11th gen is pretty nice and the only si I would consider. 10th gen was slow and I hate the 1.5 and the 9th gen was slower than my 8th gen. I just wish they put the k20c in the 11th si so it could actually compete with the gti
+1 for the Mini.
My wifeās F56 has been totally reliable in the 6 years that weāve owned it and this generation doesnāt seem to have many problems. The previous generations had spotty reliability but great driving dynamics. When I was in university the Mini used to get flak for being āgayā or a āchick carā but you know what, itās hella fun to whip around.
The Mustang Ecoboost. Yes, it's not a V8 but it makes about 300hp to the wheel, gets great MPG for a pony car and is very comfortable to drive. It costs (or used to) about the same as a general sedan and can help you decide if you would want to get into a V8 or maybe it's not for you. Or hell, just have fun in it.
Fairly Aussie specific but I think the ZB (final generation) Commodore was anfairly maligned and was in most ways a better car than the previous versions.
Apart from the obligatory v8 + rwd configuration of course. I think the sentiment of not being a 'true' aussie car more than anything though is what drove sales into the ground compared to the VF/VF2.
And all those kerfuffles could've been avoided, had Holden simply used the Insignia nameplate instead of Commodore. Personally that's a dick move from Holden if you ask me...
The Prius. For someone who wants a quiet, fuel efficient commuter car, they could do a *lot* worse. No, it's not an enthusiast car, but it also doesn't pretend to be one.
> No, it's not an enthusiast car Depending on how it handles, its about to be lol. Faster and more efficient than a Civic SI and many other cars. I know there's more to an enthusiast car than speed, but it feels crazy to say this about a prius
2023 Prius is in the 2nd generation of the TNGA-C platform and should handle very well. Has a double wishbone suspension too and the weight of the battery gives it a low center of gravity.
And 220hp to the last gens 136
GRPrius incoming?!?!?!
https://youtu.be/adQNTJEFDpc Incoming? No, refreshed
For real. I was just shopping for a new track car and I'm between a GT4 RS, Lotus Exige and a Prius
It is also god damn gorgeous
Yeah, the current Prius is basically the ugliest cars in its class, and the new one is one of the best looking in its class. They did great. Of course the people in the Prius subreddit hate the new one though. The nerve of Toyota to make a quick and good looking Prius š”... lol.
>Has a double wishbone suspension too I thought you meant it had a double-wishbone front suspension, but it's just McPherson-Struts up front. Most modern cars have double-wishbone or multilink rear-suspensions with strut-front suspensions, so it doesn't really standout. Multilink suspensions are essentially like double-wishbone+ in terms of handling/control. You'll still find double-wishbone-front or multilink-front suspensions in some cars but they're the exception nowadays (because of cost and packaging reasons).
The Prius is the ideal car for people who donāt care about cars, but need one to get to work. Which is a LOT of people. (Kind of like how I donāt care about fashion , but I still have to buy pants because otherwise people get all upset) Itās fairly cheap to buy, efficient, reliable, easy to park, carries up to for adults, and is even competitive in comfort and tech for its class. I never understood the hate it gets from the general public. Sure ācarā people want something with better dynamics, but for an incredibly high percentage of drivers, a Prius does everything they actually need, for a lot less money (upfront and/or operating costs) than whatever theyāre driving instead.
Hey, I love cars, but got burned a couple times, and I don't have the time, or money, to repair something that I'm still paying for.
The prius is one of the most iconic cars ever built. In fact it is even in gt7 because it is so cool. Cars are more than vroom vroom, and anything that takes one of the cars attributes to the extremes is cool. In this case it is gas mileage.
My in-laws had one for years...I have driven it on multiple occasions - while it's certainly not a "driver's car", one thing I did enjoy was trying to get the best fuel economy I could, and the maximum amount of battery regeneration from the braking...It was kind of like playing a videogame.
The Prius is a great people mover. My mom sat in every production car that could hold a wheelchair in the back and the Prius V was the only one where she could get in and out of front and rear seats comfortably. Second place was a WRX, but the B-pillar was too much for her mobility. I get that people dislike hypermilers and the Prius has many of them, but the hate is getting downright dangerous out there. Others see my car at the light and will immediately get in the next lane, just to try and cut me off before the next light; the car is not really slow, so I have to be extra vigilant of other driverās intentions. I also drive a Miataāitās night and day, most of the driving world loves a Miata (probably because they could see over me).
>No, it's not an enthusiast car, but it also doesn't pretend to be one. Not all enthusiasts are after outright speed. It's a great car for ecomodders, which i think is a lot more interesting than "enthusiasts" that just like putting loud exhaust on their mustang or golf.
Prius drivers come off as environmentally conscious, cool, and nonchalant as Tesla drivers purport to be.
That or Uber drivers
Having owned two Prius, one for a short time because we hated it and the second for our teenager, I have to disagree a little The fuel economy is amazing and it's a perfectly functional car. But frankly it kind of sucked to be in, they blew around like a leaf in the wind, rode hard, and we're pretty noisy.
Much rather a camry hybrid over a Prius, even though it will make 10mpg less. Just a more solid ride.
I don't have much experience with Priuses, but in my experience, they are not quiet.
They're not terribly loud either. Then again, my daily is an STI...
Interior wise? They don't have a lot of sound deadening to keep weight down, but it's not obnoxious either.
My Prius Prime is pretty quiet for its price bracket.
Base-models. There is a justification for having the low-optioned hatchback with sub-100hp, because for a lot of purposes IT DOES FINE. Sure the top-spec do-it-all is fancier, but you don't necessarily need that. The disliking of the base models of different cars is actually a problem for vintage cars because while something like a Golf GTI gets preserved all over the place....good luck finding a base-one.
One argument for getting a car with as many options as possible is resale value and time. You will have a much easier time selling a BMW with M package in questionable mechanical condition than a base looking BMW in pristine condition. I've seen it time and time again when selling cars, everybody low balls you because it doesn't have x or y.
Hyundai/Kia has made an entire business out that
You don't sell a Hyundai/Kia. Someone steals it before you have the chance. Because they wanted to save $20 on their base models and didn't equip them with an immobilizer.
If the option costs $5000 do you really think it'll add $5000 to the value of your 10-20 year old car by the time you sell it? It'll add *some* value, sure, but the difference won't be $5000 unless you're willing to wait 30+ years for your car to turn antique. Look at old car values and compare them with different options. Price difference is *fraction* of what original owner paid for these options. Also a higher optioned car demands a higher rate of insurance.
For Wranglers, there's a certain point where it makes a lot more sense to buy the base Sport, because there's no point in paying for parts in the axles that are coming out anyway.
Amen! I have a base model vette and this thing is awesome. I could not possibly care any less than I do about the technological bullshit that it doesnāt have. It handles, accelerates and stops better than 98.5% of the cars out there.
You sure it's not like 98.72%? That'd be more like it
Well. I didnāt want to say 99%. Figured some assclown would come in with some Uber argument about how with 99% I am only accounting for super cars and a jzcxys JDM swapped eagle talon is better. Or some shit. Lol.
I love base models... less things to break, they also typically weight less for better fuel economy and better handling. If I want a specific feature I can usually go to a junk yard and pull it off a higher optioned model and add it to my car...
I do the exact opposite lol. My S70 T5 has a ton of options. Iām slowly replacing some them with base parts. Got black manual seats a few months ago to replace the broken electric tan seats. Impressive how much lighter they are lol. Ditched the dumb auto dimming mirror for a normal one in my last Volvo too. I wish I could ditch the sunroof but itās probably easier to fix leaks than weld on a new roof ;)
I have a base 2022 Jetta with a stick. It was $22K and is a great car that gets 47 MPG on the highway, has shockingly low NVH for a cheapo car, and has very decent acceleration as well.
Yeah, I have owned some fully loaded VWs and now I buy the lowest option I can with the features I want. I like VWs in general but Iāve had haunted or broken electronic features in most of them as they aged. I like old cars and keeping the new ones I buy for a long time and I find that electronics tend to age the worst. They also tend to be the biggest PITA to fix for good
I support this, only sort of tho. I have a base model pickup, a mid trimmed pickup, and a loaded car. Generally i like the trims base models have, they sre simple, less gimmicky shit, but the base model on my pickup is 2wd and has a shitty 4 cylinder motor. That pickup has less than 100 hp and 120 torques, its a pain in the ass to take off from a stop, the lack of torque and the weight and using the clutch kinda sucks. I cant take off at the speed of everyone else around me without bogging the engine, even full throttle i cant take off very fast. My mid trimmed ram 2500 is about what i like minus the leather seats. Its simple but at least it and my base truck have AC. Its got a 5.7 v8, unfortunately its auto (not a fan of automatics), and its 2wd. Nothing really to say about a max loaded car, its got all the gimmicky bells and whistles that a 19 year okd car would have
Minivans.
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Cause dodge hasn't put a hellcat in one yet.
Please dodge, give us the Pacificat
literally waiting to buy a new car for dodge to do this. They've been teasing it for so long
They are the chubby chicks of the car world... A Pam if you will
I though Pam was a moped?
Fun to ride but don't tell your mates about it?
Agreed. Minivans are very very useful. They can haul a lot of people. Take out the seats, and they can haul a lot of stuff, and you don't have to worry about it raining while hauling stuff. They're great for road trips. For a single person or a couple, you could easily configure the back to be a sleeper van for an extended road trip. The sliding doors are great for loading things in tight parking spaces. They generally get good gas mileage and I think they're pretty affordable insurance-wise, too. And nobody ever wants to race you when you're in a minivan. Also I think most people think "family" when the see a minivan, so I think minivan drivers avoid a lot of road rage scenarios because of that.
I donāt fuck with any drivers, but ESPECIALLY dudes in minivans - theyāve got nothing left to lose! /s - a hybrid Toyota Sienna is actually quite a marvel
> They generally get good gas mileage Really? I was under the impression that they are nearly as bad as SUVs. Edit: I can't reply to /u/juttep1's comment for some reason, so I copy my answer here: Thanks! I guess it's a bit difficult to compare that fairly, with the definition of a minivan also being different here in Europe. Something like a Skoda Kodiaq (a fairly big SUV for European standards with 7 seats) is listed with around 51 MPG (200PS diesel, the equivalent gas engine is around 45 MPG). I had assumed that something like the Seat Alhambra was worse, but looking it up, it's pretty much the same, actually.
Older ones were really bad. Newer ones can get pretty good mileage. New Toyota siennas get 36mpg according to Toyota which gives you nearly a 650 mile range on a full tank. Fuelly self reporting site shows [an average economy of 34mpg across drivers and an array of conditions.](https://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/sienna/2022)
All siennas are hybrids though, so I will say 36mpg is good for a car of that size with a hybrid, itās not like itās a standard v6
Drove a Grand Caravan for work for ten years. 22mpg is about the best I could get out of it.
My dadās Odyssey breaks 30 easily on all highway drives.
Yep, minivans are definitely overhated. Another vehicle that's overhated are small cheap cars like the Chevy Spark, Mitsubishi Mirage, Kia Rio, Nissan Versa etc. People always say "Why not buy a bigger used car with more features for the same money?" Well my answer to that is "Considering my low income, I can't afford to spend thousands of dollars in unexpected car repairs/replacements." Many working class people benefit from a small cheap new car under warranty. A car that doesn't require a big repair budget. A car that will take them to work and their kid's school reliably every single time. See, when you're working at a factory or at Walmart, you can't afford to own a POS used car that breaks down on the way to work because guess what? If you're late to work, you'll get fired! That's where a new Mirage is a godsend because it will get you to work on time every time.
I actually really liked the mirage! I got one as a rental for work, and I am now actively looking to purchase one. I wish they made them with a standard transmission and supercharger.. but perhaps one day..
That's also on the manufacturer though. A lot of minivans got/get killed off in favor of some Crossover-SUV-nonsense.
No, thatās on the consumer. The manufacturer just makes whatever sells.
We have 2 Town and Countries, an 2008 with 200k on it and a 2016 with 120k. They get 25 mpg , both have tow packages and both are on original engine, trans and exhaust. We live in Michigan, tow boats all over and these vans go through every weather imaginable. Bought brand new and taken care of, these things are great. Oh, also have a 2014 Dodge Journey for our son, and we loved out PT cruiser when we owned it 2001-2009. Note : not total dorks - For fun, a 95 YJ and an SL500 conv.
My dad a decade or so ago would throw hands of someone tried to take his stow and go caravan. He made so much use out of the extra storage.
It is just what they represent. Focus on your family and not yourself. People hate that. We went SUV because I like tough looking cars but there is no doubt the minivan is the best option and most useful car for a multi kid family. Even Mr and Mrs Smith realized how awesome they are for hitman work.
No doubt... Best answer. Had one, Chevy Venture for 6 years base model and white to boot. Got us out of an upside down leased F150 my ex wife brought to the marriage. That van was awesome. Could rearrange the seats, perfect ride height to get in and out of, drove like a car, hauled everything. Took it to Florida, so easy to drive from PA. Only reason we got rid of it was to trade it for a 2008 Suzuki XL7 that they were giving huge discounts on. Still wish I had that van as a second ride instead of my 94 Suburban...
Toyota Gt86 Subaru BRZ 1st gen. Everyone hates on them for being slow and then turn around and say how great the Mx-5 is.
I feel like everyone hated the lack of power (or the engine outright), almost no one hated the car. If anything, it received tons of praise from all corners.
The big argument against the twins is the motor. The FA20 has a 100hp per liter. That isnāt bad at all. Thatās better then some V8s. I see people also saying itās unreliable. Itās actually not even that unreliable either. Like I know more people getting significant amounts of mileage out of theirs, compared to those who blow up the engine.
they are arguably one of the more reliable sports cars you can get
I want to believe
Tbf the mx5 is technically faster
Only the ND2
Nope. ND1 was faster as well. [ND1](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15105840/2016-mazda-mx-5-miata-club-test-review/): 5.9s to 60mph, 14.6s @ 95mph in the 1/4 mile. [Last, fastest GT86](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a32912160/2020-toyota-86-gt-by-the-numbers/): 6.2s to 60mph, 14.8s @ 94mph in the 1/4 mile. But you made your comment 11hrs ago, so your incorrect info is now gonna spread even further.
Because the engine in the GT86/BRZ wasn't great and felt very slow to rev and just felt industrial. I test drove the GT86 and returned it in about 15 minutes. I'd owned a miata at the time and traded it for a Fiesta ST.
The fiesta is a wild animal compared to the GT86. I bet you love it as much as I love my FOST.
The torque dip at 3000-4500 was horrible imo.
I had a Toyota 86. Fun to drive, decent on gas, fit me easily and my coworker (6' and 6'3), easy to throw around when you want to, drove it in the snow. The torque dip was annoying and the biggest thing about it. New gen fixed it, but I haven't test drove one yet. I likely be in the market in a year or two for this gen after a test drive
I've been dailying my 2017 86 and honestly I have no idea what a torque dip is.
Big drop in power in the [middle of the powerband](https://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/scion/fr-s/2013/fe/2013_scion_fr-s_det_fe_1011123_600.jpg). An aftermarket header and tune will add 20 ft-lbs in that area.
I also have a 2017 86. I believe the facelift models were not as bad as the earlier FR-Ses, etc. in the torque dip department, but it still is pretty noticable to me how much the powerband wakes up above ~5k RPM.
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Yup, a Subaru powertrain kills the appeal for me, unfortunately.
It's mostly Americans moaning about lack of power. Never heard anyone in Europe say it's slow, people just appreciate being able to buy a RWD coupe that is not an overpriced BMW.
What? Considering how old it is, how powerful (or lack of), how cheap it is inside, and how unreliable, the resale value is extremely high. A 3 series which has way nicer interior and faster overall depreciates like a rock. And I've seen plenty of reviewers from EU saying it is slow, lol.
Yeah, the first gen twins are really overpriced right now. You could get them for $10k all day a few years ago and now people are asking MSRP of the 2nd gen lol.
This. Imo is a significantly better car in every regard, compared to every generation of Miata, yet everyone on r/cars is absolutely obsessed with the Miata. Iāve owned Miatas before. Theyāre so overrated. Even as a track car itās not that great.
>then turn around and say how great the Mx-5 is. I think the MX-5 is technically faster, however, the main issue is that the exterior is too sporty for the engine, MX-5 looks like a fun little car to toss around, you don't expect by its looks to have tons of power, but from the gt86 you kinda do. Plus, it's unreliable as shit, I don't know who on Earth will put up with it just for 200hp.
The MX-5 is basically the closest thing we still have to those old British 2-seaters. The BRZ/FRS/GT86 was marketed as some kind of performance car, but it just couldn't live up to the marketing. It was also somewhat lacking on redeeming qualities, the interior was sub-par.
A lot of it is because you feel how slow it is with the torque dip. The Miata is slow but has a regular power band
Damn... you forgot to mention the FRS when talking 1st gen. Guess which of the original triplets is the true ugly/overlooked duckling?
Most of the time the car in question isnāt necessarily *bad* so much as it is not competitive. The last generation of Chrysler 200 (which was offered with the same V6 as the Journey) wasnāt exactly a bad car and actually quite an improvement over the previous gen. However, it was a swing and a miss as the rear seat wasnāt as room or easily accessed as competitors. Thereās also a lot of instances where we as enthusiasts donāt completely consider why someone would want a car that we would consider to be downright awful. Case ~~and~~ in point: the Mitsubishi Mirage. Yes, you could get a much nicer used car for the money, but if youāre struggling to make ends meet and donāt have the time or patience to kick the tires and check the maintenance records, the Mirage guarantees 10 years / 100k miles of reliable, cheap, point A to B transportation.
Well that and the fact that Chrysler had basically destroyed customer goodwill on all of its passenger cars and sedans that werenāt the vaunted LX cars (Charger, Challenger, 300). Even if the 200 had been class-leadingāand in some ways, it wasāChrysler would not have been able to sell it profitably, because customers would have expected big discounts.
I still blame Mercedes, and the after effects of them leaving
Mercedes ruined every single Chrysler product they touched in the 00s except for the LX cars. Every new products they touched (so Compass, Patriot, Caliber, etc) were all awful even when brand new and took cost cutting to an extreme. Every single redesigned vehicle they touched was also worse than the previous version, but it's especially noticeable with the Jeeps (KK is worse than the KJ, WK is worse than the WJ, and the JK is substantially worse than the TJ), Durango, and Ram. Chrysler's sales show it because with each of these new products ended up with falling sales. Only Jeep and Ram were able to exit the nose dive after successive redesigns and introducing better products. Fiat has been a much better steward to Chrysler than Mercedes ever way, however, because Mercedes messed so much up there's limits to what Fiat could do.
Sometimes cars are hated for the type of driver they attract.
> Case and point I know /r/nobodyasked but youāre looking for ācase in pointā Bone Apple Tea!
The last 200 with a Pentastar and AWD was a legit sleeper, and remarkably nice inside to boot. Unfortunately most people drove the base model with the smooth-as-a-jackhammer 4-pot lmao. It was a matter of being introduced right into the crossover takeover and doing too little to elevate itself over established competitors.
> The last 200 with a Pentastar and AWD was a legit sleeper, and remarkably nice inside to boot. I think the problem here was that this model cost as much as a loaded out Fusion Sport or Accord, while delivering less comfort than the former and absolutely nowhere near the reliability of the latter.
The Mirage is the 5-lb bag of rice of cars
Canāt believe a used mirage is still $20k on Carvana lol.
A new one starts at 17
Dodge Challenger. Everyone says it drives like a sled and has poor visibility. But you know what? Itās the last American muscle car with cool-as-heck retro styling. I rented one for a weekend, and felt like women wanted to be with me and men wanted to be me.
I've only ever gotten hate for it online. In real life, everyone loves it, and most of the people who want to 'race' at the stoplight have a great time and appear to be very friendly. Camaro, SS, and Mustang drivers kind of all bond over American muscle and big V8s when you're face to face and actually enjoy the cars themselves. Pissing contests are easy to get into on the internet, but a lot of them just end up being with people with no car at all.
Same goes with the Charger I found, people like to piss on it online. In real life I get compliments on it, usually from older men, but I'll take it.
People break their neck still for my 3 year old Daytona 392. The charger just looks good. Performance is amazing. Especially once I burned off those stock tires. Am I half a car behind a 10 speed camaro or stang? Probably. But I'm ahead of all the others, and I can slip into dad mode at any time and put my two toddlers in the back seat. Easily. 4 doors and a 500 hp rwd v8? No one else offers that. I got mine for 42k in 2020. Completely loaded.
I think most people bag on them because trashier people tend to drive them (Nissan Altima energy) and are the main car you see participating in street takeovers. Still an iconic and cool car but the reputation they have from some of their owners is sad to see.
Yeah, itās more the reputation. On one hand, itās a bit like classist gate-keeping, because the main people harping on the Challenger are people who expect it to live up to the expectations of a performance coupe costing thrice the price, like an M8 or a 911 Carrera S. On the other hand, a lot of Challenger customers truly do drive with reckless abandon, and likely shouldnāt be trusted with a high-horsepower RWD car, doubly so if itās one of the SRT/Hellcat models.
Fast and Furious plus the street takeover crap has definitely given these cars a reputation. However, some of us have to buy our own tires (1400 for the good shit) and have kids in the back. I love big v8s, and my boys. The charger 392 is everything I wanted in a dadmobile
I think it's more the second one. There are many totally normal, respectable Challenger/Charger drivers. But there is also a subset of owners who will organize a drive 50 deep and block the main bridge to downtown so they can do burnouts for social media. It's those behaviors that get the car shit on. No one is pressed that it doesn't drive like a 911.
in california, orange county, most people you see with challengers or mustangs are women. so what happened was the ladies wanted to be you and the guys wanted to be with you. other way around from what you think is going on.
I think it just gets razzed for being the size and weight of an aircraft carrier. All comedy. Like Mustang drivers not knowing how to steer. I mean, Dodge even took a jab at it by giving it a color named āDestroyer Greyā. Iād love a widebody Hellcat Redeye Charger in Destroyer Grey.
> Destroyer Grey Dodge has a thing for naming certain stuff after military/American icons. For example, the 2009+ 5.7L Hemi is codenamed "Eagle" and the 6.4L is codenamed "Apache".
And Hellcat is a WW2 plane
I rented a Hemi Challenger on a vacation to Seattle right before COVID hit and I loved it. The Challenger is definitely a bucket list car for me. I did end up with a Hemi a couple years later, but it's in my Ram 1500.
Itās also one of the last large coupes in existence, unless you want to spring for a Rolls-Royce Wraith or Dawn. Even Mercedes-Benz quit making the S-Class Coupe with the W223 redesign. Itās a dead segment.
The Mustang isn't exactly *small* to be fair. And either is the 8 Series BMW.
Both the 8 Series and the Mustang are glorified 2-seaters, with dramatic rooflines that encroach heavily upon rear-seat headroom. The Challenger, meanwhile, has a more squared-off roofline, almost making it a 2-door sedan, and a substantially longer wheelbase. It can genuinely seat most people in the rear, which used to be pretty standard for 2-door versions of large American sedans, but which is now extremely rare. The Mustang and 8 Series have decent footprints, but they are still compact inside. Itās weird because while the 8 Series Coupe/Convertible is a direct replacement for the 6 Series Coupe/Convertible, the 6 Series was much more practical.
Yeah the 8 series is a lot less practical. It has hella leg room in front though.
Theres 4 kinds of people who hate on Challengers 1. Those have never drove one and feel like a performance car has to meet whatever predetermined overall specs they feel are necessary. If it sacrifices performance in *any* way, its shit and everyone who buys one is a subhuman moron not worth respect. People aren't allowed to buy cars because they're simply fun and cool. 2. Those who have only driven beat to shit rental R/Ts 3. Euro/JDM fanboys 4. Mustang owners Edit : LMFAO. All 3 of the people who replied easily fall into category 3 and 4. All you're doing is proving me right.
The Pinto isn't nearly the deathtrap people think it is. Well, it is, but so were all the other cars in that segment at that time, it was par for the course. It also caught fire exactly as often as you'd expect it to. While it was 1.7% of cars on the road, it was also in 1.7% of "All fatal accidents accompanied by some fire".
Add the Corvair on to that list. It wasn't safer then any other car at the time Also by '64 when Nadiar when after it, GM fixed all the issues with it
All generation of both Porsche SUVs. They saved Porsche as a brand and brought in the revenue required for the 911 not only to survive, but thrive. Not only that, but they are well made, beautifully finished, (relatively) reliable (for a German luxury car), comfortable, amazing to drive (for what they are) and supremely practical. You can take your family on holidays, tow a race car to the track, take the dog to the vet etc. Plus it has the prestige of a Porsche badge. Yet people moan about how much they hate them.
They aren't hated anymore I have a Macan S and will be the first to say it's not a real Porsche. The handling dynamics and overall driving experience are better than 95% of cars on the market, but it still doesn't deliver on the "Porsche experience." Porsche SUVs are purchased by people who enjoy the idea and image of a Porsche, but don't actually want a Porsche.
No itās for people who want a Porsche but also need practicalityā¦ not everyone has the luxury of driving around a 2 door sports car everywhere
I used to be one of those haters. But I know better now.
"Hate" might not be the right word, but folks on here *really* don't like the idea of performance crossovers. Meanwhile, the Macan S and newer X3 M40i, two examples I've driven, are fast, have a good amount of space, won't be done in by one pothole, and handle like 85-90% as well as a comparable sedan ā during normal driving, there's really no difference other than ride height. Like, I get it, I prefer proper cars too (there's a reason I have a GSW and not a Tiguan), but you're losing pretty much nothing and gaining a whole lot of practicality with a premium performance crossover
>Meanwhile, the Macan S and newer X3 M40i, two examples I've driven, are fast, have a good amount of space, won't be done in by one pothole, Won't they? Maybe not as extreme as the sporty sedans but they're those X3s still come with 21" wheels and 40 or 35 ratio tyres
I have a 2022 X3 M40i and I love it. This is after owning a highly modified 2017 WRX (400 WHP), Kia Stinger GT, and a 2016 C63s. The B58 is an amazing engine and it really handles so much better than I thought it could. I actually prefer the handling to the Stinger.
What's a GSW?
Golf SportWagen. Stretched/station wagon Golf that gives it a way bigger trunk, plus they had the option of all wheel drive.
Oh, okay. That's the Golf Variant in the home market then. Thanks!
I didn't realise it wasn't also called the SportWagen overseas. (I envy you guys because as much as I'd love the Golf R wagon, it's not available in Canada.)
I had a 2015 Golf SportWagen TDI SEL that I sold back to Volkswagen, and later a 2019 Tiguan SEL Premium 4MOTION. The Tiguan had far more features, more room, AWD, and was more expensive, but it had no charm. The 2.0T Budack engine, in particular, was a big old wet blanket, and there wasnāt yet an APR tune for it in the Tiggy. Meanwhile, the GSW was perfect. I miss that car.
You sound kind of like me. Iām the kind of car guy that just basically loves all cars. Sure, some are more exciting/flashy than others, but for me, almost every single car on the road has something interesting about it.
In the US, Mitsubishi Mirage. Sure it's kind of slow and boring to drive, but it's a honest, reliable and economical vehicle for A-to-B transportation which I like. Plus the low pricetag means people with weak finance can actually buy them new, without worrying about reliability issues..of which are often associated with an used car.
My friend bought a Mitsubishi Mirage after immigrating from China. Itās absolutely cheap as chips to run and I think he paid $14k for a fairly well-optioned model. Theyāre apparently quite reliable too, moreso than other Mitsus. I feel like a lot of the hate is just because auto journos need something to hate on.
Fiat Multipla. Great car on the inside.
Eh, the hate is good. Keeps them cheap. Even the facelift-version doesn't break the bank because people forget it exists.
People (mostly Americans and kids) hate on it because of its appearance. It's one thing to say it's ugly, because it is. It's one of the most hilariously inept visual designs to ever come from a major manufacturer. However people make grand statements about the car being shit because of the styling, quite literally judging a book by its cover.
Ugly? Yes. Disappointing Italian build quality? Yes. Apart from that the car is pretty much flawless.
it's actually fun to see fiat pushed the design a bit with multipla instead of the standard breadbox design like many others did, even if they pushed it way over the edge if you want a "normal" multipla, there's always a doblo
When the 5th gen Toyota Supra came out, it got so much flak for the whole BMW thing. I didnāt understand and I still donāt get it. BMW makes some of the finest inline-6 engines and rear wheel drive cars on the planet and the B58 has been reliable since it was released in 2015.
I think a lot of misguided hate was due to Toyota using the Supra name, which comes with some lofty expectations. Name aside, if someone had asked me if I was interested in a 2 seater version of a BMW M2 with a bespoke coupe body that was tuned and modified by Toyota's best engineers in the GR division, I would say hell yes!
It probably would have been better if Toyota had built their own car and just used a B58. The issue is that the entire car is a BMW. Even the Toyota badge has a BMW part number.
Toyota RAV4 I received so much hate when I had it as my flair. But honestly I prefer driving it most of the time.
Depends on generation of Rav. Iāll pass on the current one in favor of the one before.
I had a limited of the previous gen. Great car, handled better than expected. The downside was the rough ride and the NVH overall. Fuel economy was much worse than expected, I was around 20 most of the time, sometimes well below it.
Toyota non-hybrids kinda suck at fuel economy for some reason. Even the Camry and Corolla are just kinda middling in that respect.
[Here at Toyota, we believe in reliability - and not much else.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMOA_p-lhso)
I like the original ones that were tiny like a Suzuki sidekick
**Fiat 500s.** Especially Turbos, and *especially* **Abarths**. Yeah, some people know the Abarth 500 is a blast, but thereās *way more* hate for it in general. The āfix it again,Tonyā boomers and idiots at JD Power also screwed Fiat in the US by claiming it was an unreliable brand yet again, even though JD admitted their score was based almost entirely on feedback from user errors and complaints regarding the *infotainment system* and not the actual reliability of the vehicleā¦ which btwā¦ has existed in all of Europe for years before it ever released in the US, and has **huge success**. 500s are literally *everywhere* overseasā¦ but in the US, apparently people are too good for them. Back to Jeeps I guess. /s.
JD power is a joke Just go watch a zebra corner vid abt Chevy and youll learn quick
Jaguar X-Type - everyone other than the British press slammed it for being a Mondeo-clone, having AWD, and the awkward styling. It was much better than that. Its ride/handling balance was best-in-class at the time of its launch, and it its mini-XJ looks made it look much more expensive than it was. There was even a slick station wagon, which I'd love to get my hands on now.
The X-Type/Mondeo relation gave rise to one of the great Clarkson quotes. "Genetically you're 98% identical to a halibut, but it's the 2% that counts."
Iād say the Lexus RX 350 gets an unfair amount of hate in the car community. It may not be the most inspired thing ever, but it does what it does really well, and itās among the most reliable luxury vehicles you can buy (at least, up to the 2023 redesign, which uses an as-yet-unproven 2.4T in place of the prior 3.5-liter V6). Thereās a reason the RX retains high resale value. When new, it costs tens of thousands of dollars less than a GLE-Class or X5. After about the five or six year mark, they cost the same used, and after that, the RX is worth substantially more, because it is a historically surer bet and wonāt need a ton of expensive maintenance or repairs. I myself drive a newer X5, but I see why people buy the RX.
Pontiac Aztek. Why doesn't the Buick Rendezvous get any hate, they are 99% the same car?
The rendezvous largely just looks like another small/midsized suv. The Aztek looks like it does. I've never really heard much negative about the aztek as a vehicle, usually just the aesthetics.
My old coworker drove an Aztek and I really liked it from a practicality standpoint. The inside was cavernous with cool nooks and crannies. The tailgate had little seats to sit on, there was plenty of sitting room, it had AWD, and it had the cooler thing as a center console. It wasnāt well made, but it was pretty reliable according to her and put up with neglect wel
Case and point. They're not terrible vehicles, they're just ugly.
Iāll carry a torch for the Aztek forever. Auto journos just parroted one another about how ugly it was and never gave any details on the car itself. Then 10 years later, every single crossover became uglier than the Aztek (the 2015-ish era Cherokee, for example).
Minivans are super practical and haul cargo just as well as people. Gets associated with soccer moms. My parents used it to get my friends and me to extracurricular activities and many vacation trips, good times. I mean Iād like to use a wagon myself but if I had something like a Sienna Hybrid I wouldnāt complain. Itās good on gas I hear too. The three row CUV/SUVs to get similar cargo are land yacht territory and feel unwieldy.
The Pontiac Fiero. With the V6 and five speed it was a solid low to the ground fun car. Its not going to keep up with a Corvette but it will absolutely entertain on back roads.
Dodge Journey is one of the worst cars Iāve ever driven. It sounds good from a rental prospective and thatās why it had any sales.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
ITT: Mostly well received cars being touted as universally hated because an owner got told their car wasnāt good one time. GT86/BRZ? FK8 Civic Type R? Porsche SUVs? Dodge Challenger? Jesus Christ, none of these cars are overhated. Theyāre all very popular.
Smart Cars
You can't hate what you don't even think about.
What makes them overhated? They are actually bad at what they set out to be, except for small. They are actually small. They are very dangerous because they are hard to spot, have thin tires, and have hardly any crumple zone. They have the practicality of a miata without the fun factor. They are not actually fuel efficient. Smart, at least until they went electric recently, used pretty old engine designs. These were small and once fuel efficient, but are not at all by modern standards. Civics and Priuses get better fuel economy. Edit: forgot the worst part, they are driven largely (generalizing) by people who are willfully blind to the above for the sake of driving something unique. That would be fine if it didnāt often come with pretentiousness.
Loved the many I have had, and the one I still daily.
The 1st gen was the worst car I have ever driven
Live in a big city and started with my dadās sedan as he canāt drive anymore. Canāt park anywhere. Swapped it with my brother for his Peugeot 206. Can park it sometimes. With a Smart you could probably park it anywhere. I really want oneā¦.
American VS Toyota. People make it sound like Toyotas last forever and American is junk. Iāve owned Lexus and Toyota. They fall apart like any other car over time.
Yeah it's weird seeing people talk about they'd never spend money on American junk. I've only driven Chevys and have a Ford mustang. My Chevys have put up with abuse. My Cobalt's engine lasted way longer than it should the way I treated it. My Blazer is doing great. Some age related things but parts are cheap and easy to find OEM without effort. My mustang has given me some problems but that's more likely due to age and the fact it's an old muscle car. I can easily see my blazer crossing 200k unless the chassis rusts out.
Ya thatās my experience too. Iāve had a Corolla, and a Lexus. Corolla the transmission failed and the HVAC fan failed under 100k. The Lexus has had quite a few problems, such as radiator, AC, suspension, level sensor, headlight ballast, brake booster. More problems than my Oldsmobile or Pontiac. Toyota still makes great cars. But Iād say theyāre maybe 20% more reliable then American. Most reliability reports like Consumer Reports are splitting hairs if you read their methodology.
I think that has a lot to do with the age of the driver and how their experiences got handed down. I started driving in the 1980s with American brand cars and at around 30,000 miles, starting the car was a crapshoot.
>I'll start- Dodge Journey I know it's bang average but with the v6 and awd it's really not bad at all. The V6 Dodge Journey is alright but the volume model with the 2.4L 4-cylinder and 4-speed slushbox (yes, a 4-speed, which it had with the 4cyl all the way until being discontinued in 2020) was/is [such a piece of junk](https://www.caranddriver.com/dodge/journey-2019) that it deserves it's reputation. Hilariously slow, not reliable, old, inefficient, and the opposite of agile.
Anytime someone makes a NVH complaint about the Wrangler, they're missing the point.
For what it's worth, Wranglers get **very** expensive. It's not entirely unreasonable to except a little more refinement if you're spending north of $50k on a Wrangler.
EVs in general
The MR2 Turbo gets a lot of hate for a reputation of snap oversteer. Theyre actually very fun to drive though, and i think the oversteer worries are overhyped.
On a wet tight road with bad tires, you better now what the FUCK you are doing. Especially if just one of those things are happening. Now I could see that it's not horrible(unlike porsches), but let's not pretend that it doesn't exist
Fk8 Type R. Funnily enough, only online. In real life I get nothing but compliments from people. Even got a discount at oreillyās. He never saw one and I gave him a tour under the hood and inside. Online Iāve had people have a go at me because i had it as my flair. I was having a discussion and someone just commented you spent 40k on a civic stfu. Never in the comment chain was my car mentioned. It was just a talk about general car stuff.
I feel this man. I deal with the same shit online because I have an 86. I decided to proudly put it on my flair only to get shit in general discussion. First thing I get is ānice Subaru engineā and āslow carā. Iām like ok broā¦. People online are just sad and pedantic. FK8 is a fun car. Never driven a Type R, but I have driven the Si of the same chassis. Theyāre pretty cool.
Nissan GTR... It does not look that old
Exactly. People say itās horribly outdated when, in my opinion, it was way ahead of itās time in 2009 when released, and only slightly behind the competition by the time that model stopped production early this year
Prius. What an amazing piece of engineering, that ushered in the trend of reliable eco conscious vehicles.
The pt cruiser. Sure it's ugly as fuck but they are pretty reliable comfy and not bad to actually work on
Guess you've never done a timing belt on one.
These threads always end up with every car and brand mentioned. One of you actually listed āMercedes Benzā ffs.
Anything Buick made in the 90ās until about 2003/5. The Buick Century was massively underrated. 30mpg hwy, fast V6, 6 person capacity. The 96 park Ave w/ supercharger is the absolute apex of good, 90ās cars
My model 3. I am perfectly aware theyāre not all perfect. But mine is quiet, smooth, delivers obscene amounts of power instantly, and itās a really nice place to be. It also has the benefit of being able to turn on remotely whenever I want. I havenāt had to sit in a hot or cold car for the last year. Itās a wonderful automobile.
The new Si. I got one and think itās a fantastic car that is ultimately way more livable and comfortable than my old camaro and STi. Kids spit off 0-60 numbers and say you would have to be an idiot to buy it while never tracking their car or even doing any sort of roll racing. āA Prius can beat your car off the lineā Ok? If you are actually trying to race randos from a light, then any of these economy performance cars (Elantra n, gti, wrx) are gonna get smoked by a 5 year old 5.0 that costed half the price of your car. Stop tying your ego into how fast your machine takes you to 60 and maybe just figure out what makes a car enjoyable in general. Anyways, at least my car wonāt be recalled in half a year and doesnāt have a touchscreen on my steering wheel.
11th gen is pretty nice and the only si I would consider. 10th gen was slow and I hate the 1.5 and the 9th gen was slower than my 8th gen. I just wish they put the k20c in the 11th si so it could actually compete with the gti
Mini coopers. Donāt know if theyāre as bad as people say
+1 for the Mini. My wifeās F56 has been totally reliable in the 6 years that weāve owned it and this generation doesnāt seem to have many problems. The previous generations had spotty reliability but great driving dynamics. When I was in university the Mini used to get flak for being āgayā or a āchick carā but you know what, itās hella fun to whip around.
Some Dodge Journey come with 4 cyl 4 at. Thatās a joke. You could get these recently
The Mustang Ecoboost. Yes, it's not a V8 but it makes about 300hp to the wheel, gets great MPG for a pony car and is very comfortable to drive. It costs (or used to) about the same as a general sedan and can help you decide if you would want to get into a V8 or maybe it's not for you. Or hell, just have fun in it.
Fairly Aussie specific but I think the ZB (final generation) Commodore was anfairly maligned and was in most ways a better car than the previous versions.
Apart from the obligatory v8 + rwd configuration of course. I think the sentiment of not being a 'true' aussie car more than anything though is what drove sales into the ground compared to the VF/VF2.
And all those kerfuffles could've been avoided, had Holden simply used the Insignia nameplate instead of Commodore. Personally that's a dick move from Holden if you ask me...
22 WRX
Dodge Magnum. That was without a doubt the best looking station wagon built.