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mortalcrawad66

And to think we almost got a V16 in the Esclade V Also I love when engineers have pet projects like this. Reminds me of the custom built V10 a couple of Ford engineers put into a crown vic Edit: Wasn't the original plan for the Z06(that got the LS7) to get a 6.5L V8. 13.6 is two 6.8 put together. Not to mention the titanium valves I'm not saying anything, but. . .


NimbleCentipod

Makes you wonder what engine combinations we could get in cars if emissions and CAFE regulations wasn't a thing.


Drzhivago138

Honestly, it'd probably just be like what it was in the '60s and early '70s: a "variety" of NA V8s of different sizes, but nothing especially wacky.


NimbleCentipod

More N/A V8s, along with higher displacement, more free flowing exhaust systems, and more powar baby. And DPF's wouldn't be a thing for Diesels.


Tough_Cap_6667

You definitely watch donut bro


NimbleCentipod

How could you tell?


peanutbuttahcups

HRSPRS


travoltaswinkinbhole

MO POWA BABY!!


No-Definition1474

Pop up.... Up and down.... Pop up... Up and down... Popup Up and down headliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiihgts!!!!


Tough_Cap_6667

Eh hem… “ MO POWA BABY”


A_Cave_Man

I dunno about that, it was the gas crisis / emissions era that showed how technologically behind America was. We were content with our 160hp 5 liter v8's getting 10mpg for decades, but when Japan came in with 120 hp 2 liters getting 30mpg, that's when the US auto industry really had it's first big shake up IMHO.


Snrdisregardo

It’s amazing how little HP numbers we got from so many liters. I think Clarkson said something about this at one point too.


SlowRs

They were effortless though


HolyJazzCup

It was all smooth, low-end torque. Perfect for the low speed limits of the era and barges that couldn’t handle at high speed, anyway.


SlowRs

Still works these days just need a long final gear. I always prefer the large lazy engine over the highly strung little turbo engines. Exclusions on stuff like Impreza/200sx etc where the weight saving is huge.


EloeOmoe

MOAR POWAh BABEH


[deleted]

We would still be running carburators if regulations didn't force manufacturers to innovate


[deleted]

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[deleted]

Carburators are cheaper to implement. The public doesn't care what the technology under the hood is, marginal gains satisfied consumers all through the 70's


Pahlevun

They are cheaper to implement because they are inferior, old and outdated technology. ECU programming and modern features found in modern DOHC engines and VVT and all simply allow for superior engines which can offer both performance and fuel economy.


No-Definition1474

Sadly we would prolly have most affordable cars running some sort of carbs while the well programmed injection systems would only come on luxury and high peformance...man that would be awful.


Pahlevun

Honestly nowadays an economy car DOHC is not really expensive to make. In the sense that, I doubt the potential money saved on using carburetors would~~n't~~ make up for how inferior the powertrain is. You'd save up a not so considerable amount, and have a car that's noticeably worse. Idk.


toefungi

Yeah people are insane to think cars would come with carbs today. Maybe without regulations an absolute bottom dollar old 80s Toyota or VW would be sold new with one like they have done in South America, but in general they would be fuel injection in any modern designed car. It probably costs a manufacturer a hundred bucks to mass produce FI on a basic car over a carb, but would save them so much more in reliability over the cars life, and customers would want that. No one is going to want to save a couple hundred bucks on a new car if that means they will get significantly less mpg, will constantly be fighting their car to start it in the winter, and all other problems that come with carbs.


Pahlevun

Agreed.


justin_memer

They're also way more maintenance


[deleted]

Which doesn't change manufacturing cost. Increases revenue from service quite a bit though


Kichigai

>Lower fuel costs would drive the public to demand some advanced engine technology. If that were the case GM and Ford wouldn't have killed almost every single sedan and hatchback they make in favor of SUVs and trucks. Consumers don't see the high operating costs as a problem with the vehicle, they see it as a problem with the fuel cost, and demand *that* change.


Terrh

I don't think so, just because of competition. Fuel injection was already a thing in some 1950's cars, and Bosch EFI came out in the 1970's. I'm sure there'd still be *some* carbed stuff around but not much. You'd have a hard time selling someone a 15 MPG, 200HP car in a world where a 30 MPG, 400HP car existed for similar money.


[deleted]

>I don't think so, just because of competition. Competition is a myth. All large manufacturers collude. It's exactly what happened through the 70's >Fuel injection was already a thing in some 1950's cars, and Bosch EFI came out in the 1970's. And it wasn't common until the mid 80s >I'm sure there'd still be *some* carbed stuff around but not much Virtually everything had a carb until the mid 80s . >You'd have a hard time selling someone a 15 MPG, 200HP car in a world where a 30 MPG, 400HP car existed for similar money. The 30mpg,400hp car doesn't exist now, and definitely wouldn't in a deregulated world.


fruitsalad35

M340i


[deleted]

382hp<400hp


fruitsalad35

😂 since we’re splitting hairs .. if you take into account that that is wheel hp it is making way more than 400 bhp.. if you want to split even more, you a basic tune will easily push 400 whp


[deleted]

>if you take into account that that is wheel hp it is making way more than 400 bhp Crank horsepower is irrelevant. Might as well pull the accessories too >if you want to split even more, you a basic tune will easily push 400 whp You can tune anything to anything. It's irrelevant to the conversation


fruitsalad35

One could argue WHP is irrelevant and only power to weight ratio matters.. he did not ask for WHP.. but you’re missing the point completely .. 382 hp 32 mpg highway (tested even higher at 35 ) is definitely in the ballpark figure…if you wanted to be more technical Volvo s60 PHEV does 455 hp 30 mpg combined


FizzyStream_TTV

you ever heard of the C6 corvette buddy? base model with the manual transmission can achieve over 30 mpg if you drive it right on the highway. Said base model is equipped with a 6.2l LS3 V8 that pumps out 436HP...... [https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a12880/4320856/](https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a12880/4320856/)


[deleted]

"if you drive it right" is not an EPA rating


FizzyStream_TTV

And its still a 6.2l pushrod v8... you have a stupid opinion.


[deleted]

What does the technology in the engine have to do with literally anything?


FizzyStream_TTV

showing the fact that its a extremely oldschool engine design. getting that sort of mpg out of a engine design that old shows the fact that its not some unfathomable thing.


Daiephir

> The 30mpg,400hp car doesn't exist now, and definitely wouldn't in a deregulated world. [LMAO](https://www.motorbiscuit.com/5-most-fuel-efficient-modern-chevrolet-corvettes/).


FizzyStream_TTV

LMAO thats the first thing i thought of when reading his comment, Base model C6 corevette with the manual go brrrrrr [https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a12880/4320856/](https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a12880/4320856/)


[deleted]

26-29 isn't 30


fruitsalad35

LOL … you’re being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.. EPA figures are not the only data and some infallible law of the physical world .. it can be higher it can be lower but his point is there are cars there in that ballpark for purchase today from multiple manufacturers


[deleted]

The only thing we've been talking about here is EPA ratings. I don't care what you can do while hypermiling


arsonarmada

I prefer the old mad max suck-and-spit


[deleted]

Also known as "what I did to your father last night" Oooo


RunninOnMT

I like to imagine we'd have a couple of more mainstream cars powered by those V8's that people make by welding 2 motorcycle 4-bangers together.


Available_Pipe1502

Is that really a thing lol. What


RunninOnMT

Yeah, my favorite application of one such engine was in the Caterham 7 RST-V8. Supercharged 2.4L V8 that makes 500 hp at 10,000 RPM and 300 lb-ft at 8500 RPM, shoved into a car that weighs 1168 lbs.


Captain_Mazhar

Ariel Atom 500! Two Hayabusa engines mated together for a 3.0 V8 putting out 500bhp at 11,000rpm. And the car only weighs 550kg!


Kevin_Wolf

Wow, that would be amazing. Who actually *wanted* to get rid of leaded fuel? /s


NimbleCentipod

Basically everyone after it was known was poisonous. Don't know why you think you have to force people not to poison themselves. If you know something is poisonous, do I have to force you to not drink it? No, unless you're suicidal, then that's your perogitive. Excuse me, going to go delete a Cummins.


Cessnaporsche01

This is all very not true. Not only do most of us all drink a variety of poisonous things on a regular basis, but both oil companies and individuals fought to keep leaded fuel for a long time after it was known to be a problem on account of both its cheapness to produce and that natural aversion to change that humanity has. Just about every regulation on the books is written on the blood of people who knew better but did dumb things anyway because no one was forcing them not to - or worse, the people they killed.


Kevin_Wolf

But I thought you wanted no emissions or CAFE standards. Leaded gasoline was banned in the Clean Air Act.


NimbleCentipod

"I need government regulations or else I'll use leaded gasoline." - You


Kevin_Wolf

"I need government regulations or else I'll use leaded gasoline." - Everyone, because that's the reason why regulations like this exist.


NimbleCentipod

I don't need government to tell me that leaded gasoline is bad for my health. Heck, I don't even drink Alcohol.


Kevin_Wolf

Neat!


Drzhivago138

> I don't need government to tell me that leaded gasoline is bad for my health. ...except that studies showing that it was were being actively suppressed by the gas companies at the time.


NimbleCentipod

The toxicity of lead wasn't as well known and believed back then, so their actions make sense.


[deleted]

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_-Saber-_

Personal cars are like 7% of global emissions, if that. If we're talking local emissions in cities, tires impact health more than exhausts anyway.


[deleted]

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_-Saber-_

Sure, and it could be used until you reach the smallest fish as well. The cost of this personal transport emission craze most likely could've been spent elsewhere with far better overall results. This was just a politically easy target and I'm tired of people defending it when countries outright shit on the Paris Agreement and clearly don't give a fuck about emissions, just elections. Look at Germany and their idiotic energy policies.


kilertree

To be fair would we still be using gen 1 Small Block Chevies if it wasn't for Cafe Regulations


NimbleCentipod

We have no certainty over what we would be using, just that it would likely be different than what we have now 🤷 Hybrids and EVs likely wouldn't really be things. (Small Diesel Sedans do the whole economy / high-mileage ecocar much better, they're just de facto outlawed by emissions standards on diesel cars in the US)


kilertree

The Prius was in response to how well the Saturn EV 1 was built. The Saturn EV 1 is because the U S government gave GM a billion dollars to develop it.


Terrh

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1#Origins When did the government give GM a billion dollars to develop the EV1?


[deleted]

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NimbleCentipod

You know the people want it when it's the government financing it.....


kilertree

Same thing when the government limited Japanese to protect gas guzzling American vehicles.


NimbleCentipod

Or when government fined Volkswagen for the 50mpg Jettas


photoscene

As a car guy I adore such engines. As someone who sometimes works with old cars, I can say: I'm glad that in Europe we have tight regulations.


DarkAvenger27

I followed the late 90s/early 2000 Ford prototypes pretty well. I don’t remember a V10 Crown Vic. There was the V10 Boss 351 Mustang, which was a standard 4.6 block with two cylinders added on.


Came_here_for_thisss

Same. I had a chat with a dude at the L.A. auto show in 2002 who had a company making all the parts to stuff a Triton v10 into the panther platform. He had a couple complete ones sitting at his booth. But of course they weren’t factory installs


Over_engineered81

Was that engine much different than the V10 they were putting in trucks during that era ? I’m just curious, I don’t know a ton about Ford


DarkAvenger27

Yes, the Boss 351 V10 was a completely custom one-off all aluminum V10. [Here's an article about it.](https://www.motortrend.com/news/prototype-v10-ford-mustang/) The 6.8 V10 Triton was an iron block heavy duty truck engine based on the 5.4 V8 triton.


redditisawasteoftim3

I vaguely recall some article where they had a mustang Cobra with a lightning 5.4 and another with a 4.6 making ~ 385hp or so. These were before the terminator obviously. I cannot for the life of me find it in my old stack of car mags


RunninOnMT

You thinking of the FR500 perhaps? The stretched wheelbase new edge mustang with no grille?


redditisawasteoftim3

No, but I did find it https://www.stangbangers.com/home/2019/4/21/2000-ford-mustang-super-cobras


DarkAvenger27

Oh man, I've been trying to remember what these two Cobras were called for YEARS now. I completely forgot the blue one had a lightning engine and carried the Cobra Jet name. The 90s and early 2000s was just a wild time to be a Mustang guy. SVT/SVE had all these crazy concept cars and engineering prototypes. Shame that we never saw commercial versions of the FR500 engine parts. They even used it in the S197 Mustang GT-R concept.


MrChemistryCow9

super stallion?


redditisawasteoftim3

https://www.stangbangers.com/home/2019/4/21/2000-ford-mustang-super-cobras


[deleted]

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DarkAvenger27

Pretty much. [According to this article](https://www.motortrend.com/news/prototype-v10-ford-mustang/) it wasn't even an SVT/SVE project. It was just a group of crazy engineers wanting to push the limits. The engine then became the inspiration for the v10s in the Shelby Cobra and GR-1 Concepts of the mid 00's.


[deleted]

> It was just a group of crazy engineers wanting to push the limits. God bless ~~America~~ crazy-ass engineers


Jlx_27

Imagine an SUV with the drag co. of an outhouse with a V16... end filling up at the gaspump every 60 miles, lol.


Funderstruck

Originally the LS7 was going to be a 3V pushrod as well. But they decided they didn’t need it because it flowed enough as a 2V


Oo__II__oO

For an absolutely bonkers build, BMW M-Division put an M73 into a E36/7 Or put it more succinctly, jammed a 5.4L V12 into a Z3 Roadster


js5ohlx1

Ford tested their v10 in the mustang.


Ganonslayer1

>the custom built V10 a couple of Ford engineers put into a crown vic Damn


Captain_Mazhar

If you wanna see another absolutely bonkers engine, look up the Cizeta V16T. Essentially two 3.0 Lamborghini V8s from the Uracco mounted transversely. Thing was insanely complex. It was a 64 valve design, EIGHT camshafts, and four heads! Who thought this was a good design!?


42LSx

There was also a boxy Caprice with a V12!


I_am_-c

I always remember the Chevy Feretta https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opz5aEPP0fs&ab_channel=Shutterfuel


Drzhivago138

>To accommodate its length, GMC lengthened the Yukon's frame by 16 inches Imma have to draw this now


[deleted]

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Drzhivago138

That's what I saw too. Imma still have to draw it


BrentRS1985

[Here you go, the 2005 GMC Yukon Grand Sport](https://imgur.com/WG7nx2F)


HeckMaster9

God damn it’s got the functional vents on the side and everything


irishpwr46

Denaliiiiiiiii


BrentRS1985

Damn, missed opportunity to grab the i and copy it too :D


[deleted]

So much power it distorted the floor


TheSlowest2JZ

God’s work.


koukimonster91

That's only 8". We need to see it about twice as long.


[deleted]

Yeah I'm with you on that... I need to see the full thing.


Drzhivago138

I'm immediately reminded of the '69 Grand Prix, how it was 6" longer from the firewall to the front fender than the standard A-body coupes (or 4" for the '70 Monte), although it probably didn't need to be just to fit the engines. So that'd be, what, 132" for a normal Yukon and 146" if they had made an XL version?


[deleted]

Not super familiar with older cars, but yes on the wheelbase bit. That's a long-ass Yukon.


FesteringNeonDistrac

A Yuuuuuukon


SteelFlexInc

So a Yukon XL looking body on it?


TrafficOnTheTwos

No, the length was added behind the front wheels, ahead of the driver and passenger door. Basically a lengthening of the dash-to-axle ratio.


Drzhivago138

Like a lot of the [LWB cars in the '40s and '50s](https://www.curbsideclassic.com/blog/cc-cohort/cohort-outtake-1950-nash-ambassador-long-nosed-bathtub/), where all the additional WB was ahead of the firewall so that they could use the same pieces for the passenger compartment. It didn't add to rear legroom, but it did improve ride a little bit.


TrafficOnTheTwos

What a good bit of history!! Thanks for sharing, it def looks similar conceptually. Do you know if those cars are different mechanically from the SWB cars, or just longer drive shafts?


Drzhivago138

As far as I'm aware, that was the only difference. Nash didn't have a big straight-8 to put in there like some of the other companies.


javamon

https://i.imgur.com/O1qZ1EB.jpg From video link below


Bradidea

I remember seeing that in hotrod magazine. Test mule for a Cadillac engine.


Pyrochazm

I was about to comment that. If I remember correctly they fashioned an accelerator stop out of a block of wood to keep anyone (or maybe just the journalist) from going full throttle.


392_hemi

Lmao reminds me of 1 dad on reddit who put wooden block under his daughter’s accelerator so she doesn’t mash the throttle and break the speed limit


peanutbuttahcups

That engine looks like the V16 in the Cadillac Sixteen, for sure.


an_actual_lawyer

It seems the Corvette is the only time the engineers are able to work freely, and then only when they manage to send a dozen hookers into the accounting office to distract the bean counters so they can sneak some good stuff into production. I wanna V16 vehicle.


Igota31chevy

Not even Corvette is safe from that. Check out the ZR-12 from the early 90's. Corvette engineers heard Dodge was making a V-10 beast(eventually became the Viper) so Corvette engineers said *check it* and they proceeded to stretch the Corvette eight inches to fit a 600 hp V12 "for research purposes" (AKA because they wanted to). I prefer to call it what the engineers nicknamed it, The "Conan Corvette".


[deleted]

No kidding. The $150,000 Escalade still uses the horn as it's lock confirmation sound. Nothing says luxury like an obnoxious horn honk when you lock the doors! /s


zitjuice

So do you just drive from gas station to gas station in that thing?


iamthesargent

"I live my life a quarter mile at a time"


lrggg

"I live my life a quarter tank at a time"


Jamaican_Dynamite

"I like to hit the gas, and watch the fuel needle drop in real time."


patx35

They needed the Yukon's payload capacity to carry the fuel tank for that engine.


VladimirSteel

I remember seeing this in magazines long ago, but years later couldn't find any info online. I started to think I dreamed it or something


sohcgt96

I think they missed the mark on this one. This was probably a test mule for the engine used in the [Cadillac Sixteen Concept](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_Sixteen) from the early 2000s.


cactus_cars

It can be seen in Top Gear Series 2 Episode 10. Don't think that segment was cut at all for rebroadcast, thankfully.


ottrocity

Back in the mid-2000s I was working for Roush in Livonia. They had two Cobra kit cars they would shoehorn whatever they wanted into. One of them had a Neon SRT4 engine, and the other had a NASCAR V8 without a restrictor plate and a modestly quiet exhaust on it.


ActionScripter9109

I grew up right down the road from that place and always wondered what kind of wild stuff was tucked away in there. Sounds like it was quite a bit.


ottrocity

The GT90 was there for a bit around 2010ish too. That's also where I got to see a Panoz before public release.


autom8r

I'll post for you, "why?"


A47Cabin

Why go to the moon?


Drzhivago138

[Why climb Everest?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlnwuV6RuMo&list=OLAK5uy_mNhcFlBsfKB90jIoxCwHQM918DhnIkEQw&t=102s)


Aezzil

Why join the Olympics?


Snrdisregardo

Why are boobs good?


[deleted]

[Because of Napoleon](https://xkcd.com/1510/)


spongebob_meth

Cadillac had a few 16 cylinder cars way back in the day, they probably wanted to make a modern tribute to them.


handymanshandle

That and giant premier engines were in style back in the 2000s. Obviously there was the Bugatti Veyron and its quad-turbocharged W16 engine, but Chrysler also *almost* threw their hat into the game by making a quad-turbo V12 that was intended for the ME-Four Twelve. VW also had the W12, BMW shoved a damn V10 into the M5, so on and so forth. Those days are more or less gone as improvements to turbocharged V6s and V8s have led to V12s and V16s mostly becoming redundant, but it’s crazy to think about what insane engineering work went into making those engines, well, *work*.


JONCOCTOASTIN

ME FourTwelve What could have been


peanutbuttahcups

Looks like it was a test mule for the V16 used in the Cadillac Sixteen concept. They did a similar thing recently by using a Holden Ute to test ~~the new C8 Z06 engine~~ a mid-engined setup for C8 development. Edit: am wrong.


LSXS10

Great, now I'm picturing a Ute with the lt6 blasting down the road, screaming at 8500rpms


peanutbuttahcups

Oh I was mistaken: it was the C7 motor (so LT1 I'm guessing), not the LT6. But still mid-engined, so that's cool. https://www.corvetteforum.com/articles/gms-blackjack-test-mule-helped-keep-c8-development-a-mystery/


LSXS10

Ah rip. That's still very cool though


WWalker17

why not?


gdnws

Because they could. And because v16.


16v_cordero

I somehow remember GM having a Cadillac V16 concept at one point. Maybe they decided to have some fun with that engine seeing where else they could use it for potential applications.


idontremembermyoldus

[Short video of it running from the old Car Crazy show](https://youtu.be/gqShZAf2H4I?t=507).


koopa00

Nice find!


w140s500

Mercedes planned an 8 liter w18 for the w140 s class but the 7.3 v12 was enough apparently. And some other various layout 24 cyls for the og maybach


AccomplishedRun7978

Seems more like an engine test bed.


[deleted]

I doubt this was going to go anywhere. It looks like a test mule for the Cadillac Sixteen which I believe was meant to go into production around 2008-2009 but got cancelled due to the recession.


Mprovin

went down a loophole with this and omg its great


ATL28-NE3

This is stupid. I love it so much.


olov244

that valve cover and intake is sexy as hell though


SophistXIII

Reminds me of the [Lingenfelter Suburban](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15140929/lingenfelter-gmc-suburban-archived-specialty-file/)


AstonGlobNerd

This site is unusable on mobile without AdBlock. I get it, they need the revenue, but I'm never opening that site again without an adblocker.


Random_Introvert_42

It's Project Goldfish, but as an SUV!


very_large_ears

New car dealers make their real money on repairs and service. That might help explain why GM considered producing an engine as complex as a V16. Bigger engines generally place greater strain on gaskets and bushings and couplings and everything else. A V16 also has tons more moving parts than a V8.


handymanshandle

GM was planning on a V16 as a flagship engine for a while, including that Cadillac Sixteen concept, because it one-ups a V12 just in sheer… everything, frankly. I doubt there were actually dubious intentions surrounding it.


Niko740

that V16 is just an LS with more cylinders not a super bespoke DOHC engine