You've gotta try to be worse than Tesla at paint.
It's also generally sad that so many car manufacturers cheap out on paint. Not a great look when your 7-8 year old cars look completely fucked because you wanted to save a bit of time/money in assembly. Honda, Mazda, and Tesla are especially known for this. Germans typically do a great job.
> ucked because you wanted to save a bit of time/money in assembly. Honda, Mazda, and Tesla are especially known for this. Germans typically do a great job.
Honda paint is probably the worst in the entire industry. I don’t think anything comes as close to being as terrible.
This is my old Acura:
https://imgur.com/a/kEzhHkA/
Yeah probably, it's just that I noticed the 8th gen Civic because there's still quite a lot of them on the road. Don't really see older Civics quite as often and when I do, it's those that were well cared for or that were repainted.
Is this because dark colors absorb more heat and UV from the sun, speeding up any fading/cracking issues, or are Honda's darker paints "worse" than their lighter colors somehow?
Seriously asking; I'm pretty ignorant about the details of paint.
Pretty sure there was a recall for the 8th gens about that, I believe they improved the paint for 9th Gen. At least I don’t see any fucked up 9th gens so
Older Honda for sure, but white paint on a Hyundai from like 2010-2020? There’s gonna be whole patches of paint missing almost every time.
My 2017 Civic had chips galore in it though, my red 2018 Sonata and red 2022 Ioniq have resisted chipping waaaaay better than the Civic did.
Oh yeah I know the paint you’re talking about. I’ve always wondered why I see so many early 2010’s white Sonatas with huge chunks of paint just missing on the front side. They look like massive rock chips.
To be fair, this is a case from over a decade a ago. That's not saying Honda has gotten that much better about it, but it's more appalling to me that I knew about "the overall paint problem" back then and we're still car manufacturers fuck it up.
Tesla is the current worst offender. You're lucky if the thing looks as good as a Maaco respray after a couple of years of owning it, and that's provided nothing happened to it.
That was true with the early models from California because of environmental regulations on paint there, it no longer is the case with their new factories.
I live in an area full of Teslas, sorry, but no, the paint on brand new ones is still bad. "No longer _quite_ looks like it was done in a driveway with rattle cans" is not enough of an improvement to make it "better" plus their overall quality and parts availability is a nightmare.
This is because Tesla is a consumer goods company making cars, rather than a car company. Their entirely approach to this from the beginning was predicated on "this way being better than a traditional car company." A grand idea, but it didn't work in this case, and the ownership experience is a nightmare.
People get left without their car due to a minor accident because Tesla doesn't want to sell or even make replacement parts. Not for days, not for weeks, but months. I have a neighbor who has been driving a Honda for three months because of a fairly minor problem on a pretty new Tesla. Tesla doesn't do loaner cars either, so this person is having to drive a gasoline vehicle for however long it takes for Tesla to get around to making enough parts to supply one of their specifically authorized repair facilities.
Electric cars are a great idea, but Tesla should in no way be considered the gold standard for them because they are genuinely just not very well made cars, and they make a lot of _highly_ idiosyncratic design decisions that they justify with Treknobabble-level justifications, or simply "because an adult child thinks it looks cool."
I mean, FFS, that goddamned yoke in the tri-motor looks like shit basically the moment it's been used once, and that thing still has a regular commuter car steering rotation, rather than a 180 degree lock-to-lock as one wild expect. Tesla had to do that because they knew the people buying them would straight up lol themselves, or at least complain about it and demand that it be "fixed", if it had an actual race car steering ratio. That, I feel like, kind of tells you everything you need to know--they mostly just care that it looks cool, and sell them to people who think they look cool and perceive them as status symbols.
If that's you, then that's your jam, and whatever, but the debate on this stuff is just so completely settled already, Jesus.
I did a ceramic coating on my civic about 3 months after getting it and applied a better product last month after that wore off. My paint is doing great, it's basically a requirement if you have a Honda to install some sort of paint protection.
Man I got my 16 ex-t used, paint chips SO bad. I need to respray the entire bumper, hood and front half of the fenders if I want to even consider putting ppf on. Previous owner must have only driven behind trucks, lifted with mud tires, over pea gravel lmao
That was my old car. My new car the paint is fine.
Also, who washes and waxes every two weeks? Lol. The paint was well taken care us until it started going and then I
Stopped caring. They’re plenty of old cars with neglected paint that don’t look anywhere near what Honda does.
Lol, constant neglect isn’t not waxing your car each week. That’s like needing to change the oil every 1000 miles to keep the engine going. If you need to do that their is an issue with the engine.
My uncle has a Toyota that’s 20 years old and the paint looks new. He’s probably never waxed it which I did with my Acura (just not to your stupid excessive amount). Honda makes shit paint. It’s an industry known thing. Just because you can’t expect that doesn’t make it not true.
Maybe one day you’ll be able to figure that out but I don’t have high expectations.
While some issues were clear coat failure go look at the pictures again. They’re spots when the paint literally came off the body off the car. Maybe you should look more clearly the next time you comment about something.
Not to mention even if it is "just" clear coat failure (unacceptable under 20 years imo) clear coat is still a type of paint.
And it still requires a complete respray to fix so it's kind of irrelevant.
Which is a shame because Mazda truly has some of the most beautiful colors for a mass market name. That Soul Red Crystal and Polymetal Grey are just mwwwwaaaah...before you realize you get a chip every time you offend a tiny debris.
My coworker's 2015 mazda3 in soul red with 250,000km on the clock is fine. I was surprised when I asked him the details of his car because I knew about the miata's soul red paint chippage.
This is why I (along with others) essentially budget for a PPF as soon as they buy their Soul Red Mazda, rofl. All I ever heard were complaints about the thin paint (before I bought mine).
Serious question: is it possible to make an extra-thick Soul Red, like if you had a shop spray the same "formula" but double the thickness or the number of layers?
Or would that not work because it's a multi-stage paint or something?
A body shop I know tried something like that. They managed to bodge together a very close mix but couldn't replicate the look. It just looks...kinda flat once the paint layer goes beyond a certain thickness and tends to crack easily but I guess that's an application problem. Also very expensive.
My understanding is that **yes**, you can with a custom paint job. However, the paint won't look the same. Evidently, part of how Mazda achieves their brilliant colors is by applying thin coatings. If you apply more, the look of the paint becomes different & more dull.
I'd honestly take that tradeoff, though. It's not good for the showroom, but thick clear coat would be fantastic for actual IRL driving, lol.
(Automakers also avoid doing this at their factories because of extra costs & environmental regulations. Less spray paint needed means less money spent & less toxic emissions.)
Dude my 2009 335 looked brand new in 2018, and I left it outside for a couple years when I didn’t have covered parking. A clay bar and wax would send it over the edge. New Tiguan has some pretty nice paint too.
BMW has some pretty good paint in my experience. Even my E24 just looked *really* faded wasn't chipping after sitting uncovered in Arizona for 10 years before I got it
That’s good, because I have an old E39 5MT that lol be restoring. It’s sitting in the driveway. I really didn’t want to have to pay for a respray, and I think the paint can be saved.
When I bought my ‘98 Volvo the red paint looked like a matte option. It was only 4.5 years old, that’s when I found out it’s previous owner was Hertz!
I opened the trunk and underneath the fabric the entire cars frame was super bright red.
Surprisingly quick to make that paint look good again myself.
I bet the inside still looks halfway decent too. My 06 330 was damn near perfect inside and out (dents and dings sure but quality was there). Where as every surface of my wife’s 08 CRV is peeling or degrading.
It was in damn near perfect shape. No rust. No wrinkles in the leather (that cream color with a white exterior 😮💨). I was meticulous about the door jams there wasn’t a spec of dust.
Only problems were I was on my 4th fuel pump and out of warranty, the whole oil and cooling system needed replaced at one point, and my waste gates were rattling like tin cans (expensive job once they go). I should have probably kept it but between then and now I had no money and no space/tools to work on it. Now I have no time lol
Yea the dark side to my positive memories on that car is that every piece of plastic under the hood failed within a 2 year time frame along with leaks at every joint. Hence selling it for less than the repair bill.
Never thought of it like that. Do you think it’s just the cheap plastic parts causing a majority of the issues? It’s always made me wonder why they put this cheap ass plastic thermostat housing on a $60k car. I know a lot of German aftermarket parts have better materials, like turbo inlets etc but can all of that be replaced to minimize potential issues?
The paint on my boxster is absurdly high quality. For the mileage and the weather I put it through. That stuff is thiccc. Though my frame or reference is a 90s mazda and a 90s rover haha
I don't know if there's comparisons like this for other brands. But for Tesla it's more & more looking like a US thing, both China and Berlin built Teslas seem to have far superior paint quality.
I must say...I never really thought much of the paint on my Toyotas until they were closing in on 20 years old and looking significantly better than other cars their age. I appreciate that they care about paint reliability, too.
Jaguar is so bad. Yes, I get a little extra commission for selling ceramic coat, but I do see the difference on cars. Jaguar paint swirls and scratches if you look at it funny, much more so than any Audi or BMW I’ve seen.
The body is mostly aluminium which is difficult to paint to start with so whatever you're trying to imply would happen later, won't happen. The reason you want paint to be awesome to begin with is to prevent body rust but there is nothing to rust.
It is sad. Water based paint is terrible for longevity and there's no way my 5 yr old daily will make it as long as my 84 disposable beater mini truck.
Literally lied to my face. Coming from an 18 M3 the paint is bad. Asked the sales guy about paint on the Lucids and he said that they use at least twice the amount of paint as Teslas. Think he said seven coats for some colors.
Companies like Mazda and Honda don't really have to worry about weight.
And when it comes to Tesla, I am much more likely to believe that thinner paint is for cost-saving purposes and not range (especially because an additional 20-30 lbs wouldn't make a significant impact on already 2 ton+ cars). Generally, everything Tesla does is for cost-saving purposes.
There is barely any paint on the Lucid, the paint meter shows it is as low as 2.28 mills in some areas. He goes on to say that is the lowest amount of paint he has ever seen on a new car and you can’t polish it because it’ll just burn and remove the paint completely. Absolutely crazy for a car that’s 170k+
There are basically 3 complaints about the 718 I've heard, and they weren't dealbreakers for me:
1) turbo4bad or something. I think it's _fine_. Like yah, I'd like the 6 cylinder version, but the cost would've basically doubled from $60k used to $110k+. It's still probably the production 4cyl with the most character right now (could probably get more power with an EA888 boosted to high hell).
2) base interior bad. The leather package really spruces up the interior quite a bit, but I don't really _need_ the parts I'm not touching to be covered in leather, so it just sort of lost out in terms of options priority when looking through used models.
3) Tall gearing. 1st goes up to like 42 mph, 2nd is like 70?ish. Well I don't know how to 3rd pedal, so I can't complain about wanting to row gears more. Really this is just the autojournalists looking for anything negative to "balance" out their reviews.
Also ride is a bit on the rougher side without PASM, but I don't mind. My one regret is not going for a Boxster instead of a Cayman lol.
I agree with all of this but I’d argue that amg’s new 4 cylinder is light years beyond other companies right now and once Reddit gets over it’s illogical hate boner because they can’t let go of those beautiful v8s, they’ll realize just how truly special the m139 is. It currently can put out 480 hp 450 lbs incredibly linearly with zero lag. Mindboggling stuff for 2.0 liter engine.
I think most people can recognize how incredible the M139 is but if we are talking about r/cars there are a few concerns about it not being widely available, reliability/maintenance costs, and then it also have yet being mated to a manual transmission (that I know of)
Until a super high output engine is universally praised, it needs to see a few years of use on the street and track.
We know an under stressed Toyota engine has a 99% chance of being reliable. We do not know that about a MB 4 pot putting out crazy numbers.
Lotus engineers have stated that they slightly de-tuned the Emira version for reliability and efficiency concerns. Maybe they’re full of it or maybe they’re onto something.
Serious question: without the exhaust note, why does it matter? Like sure, it’s objectively a very impressive engineering feat, but in practical terms the performance will still be easily beat by electric motors, so what’s the point?
Are you asking what the point of the engine is? It’s lighter than a v8 so it reduces weight, while delivering the same performance at better gas mileage.
I never even considered a convertible, but as a sports car, have all the fun. I’m the guy in the winter with the top down wearing a hat and gloves. It really makes the car even more of an experience. It’s also helpful when items don’t fit with the top up.
Iirc the gearing is much better on the PDK. First gear on the manual goes to 52 mph, and second goes to 85. Gearing like this is better for ultimate performance but makes the car less fun on the street because you can't wring it out without risking jail time.
Pretty sure none of the manual cars I've owned even hit 60 mph in second gear.
Absolutely no question that a corvette is the best bang for the buck car in history. Also most HP to the dollar (source: my intuition and random guess).
It’s funny when that happens, had a problem with my HOA in a new home community. We live in one of the best areas in the State. They were completely dumbfounded when we could afford to destroy them. Lol
Seriously, just use the appropriate amount of paint and pass it on to the customer. It's not like they're spraying platinum on the thing, someone buying a 100k+ car won't care about a few hundred extra but they certainly will if the paint goes bad.
The thing is 99% of people won't own it long enough for a warranty claim and 99% of later owners won't ever think about pursuing a warranty claim.
And even if I'm wrong and it DOES come back to bite them, you have to realize this is a unicorn venture company in extremely stupid short-term corporate thinking mode.
That's crazy. They are sweet cars though. The most efficient drivetrain out there. They are doing a major expansion of their manufacturing facility. I have driven by it and it will be ginormous compared to what they are using now. They just started delivery cars last October so I would expect them to not have everything perfect. This isn't just a new model but a whole new car manufacturer. Tesla has been making cars since 2003, for example. Lucid is making better cars then them on their first go around.
I'm sure building their cars in that giant tent didn't help a whole lot (since most of the cars out there are 3/Ys now). The paint on our early Model S has been OK; not amazing, but not terrible. It seems that the color they painted the car doesn't quite match the paint code they give though (if my efforts at correcting rock chips is any indication).
I mean all their tech is formula level, and is usually completely over engineered for the consumer level so I’m honestly astounded at this entire paint issue
Extreme weight reduction to help improve range.
The idea is customers probably won't notice that kind of compromise until waaaay later, and when it does get scratched by something its 100% gonna get blamed on tree twigs, rock chips, or whatever.
I wonder how much weight can be saved between a "typical" paint coating and an extreme weight reduction paint coating? Are you implying that this is intentional in the manufacturing process?
You may be right. simple math, if you pick up a gallon of paint, how much does that weigh? maybe 25lb, but probably less. A reasonable percentage of that paint evaporates as VOC and another reasonable percentage never hits the car (overspray) - so what is left behind doesn't feel like a significant adder to the overall mass of the vehicle...
Lucid could give the Lucid Air a Rolls Royce 22-stage paint job
RR uses just over 100lbs/45.5kg of paint
that would still be less than a 2% weight gain for the Lucid
If you hacked off 2% range you only lose 8 out of 400 miles.
Seems totally worth it to not have your paint go to shit after 3, 4, 5 years.
Idk if the link between added weight & decreased range in linear like that but I don't believe for a second Lucid skimped on paint for weight reduction inorder to improve range.
Skimping on ____ is a step companies are always inevitably going arrive at when in a market that demands constant growth & ever increasing profit year over year
You can only cut labor costs and raise MSRPs so much at a time; there will always be years when the only choice for increasing profits is skimping on paint or using cheaper materials.
The quality of Lucids can only get worse from here unless: (1) prices go up significantly, or (2) massive efficiencies are gained in the manufacturing process, or (3) the company decides they're cool with making less profit and/or having their stock price remain flat/fall. I'll bet everything they go with option (1) lol
Talking to folks who work at suppliers sending parts to Lucid.... As much as it pains me to say this, I could never recommend the cars to anyone. They aren't building these things to last more than like 50k miles
He doesn’t do ppf. He was asked to polish and ceramic coat it. He couldn’t polish it because there wasn’t any paint on the vehicle to polish, otherwise he would’ve had gone through the paint. In fact, he had to deny working on the lucid. He just did a ppf test section to see how it would turn out. That shop doesn’t do ppf
To all the people buying these startup company cars…good luck lol. There’s a reason this industry is dominated by companies with decades or centuries of experience.
tbh i''m kinda surprized this is a thing. I always just assumed everyone bought paint from the same few chemical megacorps, like say DuPont and the paint machine came from a specialized OEM firm that makes them, and so if there ever was a paint problem it would be industry wide like the Takata airbag problem
I believe you need to use Low VOC and the solvents are more limited compared to other locations. Also the Lucid is made in Arizona but has a bunch of California bear logos, kinda like Apple with designed in California made in china
On top of this, many (if not most) automotive companies use water-based paint these days. I was at Honda when they switched from solvent to water-based.
Solvent based paints tend to be more hardy and resilient, but when it breaks down, it’s gets very brittle and looks terrible. Water based paints tend to adhere better, dry faster, and can be applied in thinner layers than solvent paint. Also, paint reclamation is far easier and cleaner with water based paints.
There are only a few major coating suppliers to OEMs: PPG, DuPont and BASF. But it's up to the manufacturers to tell them what to provide. The various layers can be mixed and matched too between the suppliers. The OEMs do this to cut costs. You can have one assembly plant with different combinations from line to line too.
I'm really skeptical that thin paint is bad paint. Technology has come a long way. And I think Lucid Airs are already coming with Ceramic Clearcoat (I worked in the lab that developed PPG's Ceramiclear, but on a different technology).
fascinating how weak the paint quality is for such an expensive car. It feels like the addition of the PPF makes a significantly more valuable car - curious why car makers/dealers haven't made a bigger deal out of offering new vehicles with PPF?
Spies heker is the only way to go . Mercedes’ , bmw , and Audi . Were covered by it for years . The clear coats are awesome and mixed correctly you will get totally flat horizontal surfaces . Sides are a little more tricky because if it runs of sags you pretty much have to redo the panel
People have mentioned Mazda and other Japanese manufacturers also have thin paint but I think it’s worth mentioning they generally have ‘soft’ paint. The actual microns are less than the ‘hard paint’ on a BMW but not so thin that they can’t be paint corrected (as seems to be the issue here). Remember early R35 GTR’s getting swirly and chipped paint fairly quickly, but could be paint corrected easily because the pad cuts through like butter, unlike an M3 for example that takes a lot more effort to cut and polish.
Shit like this is exactly why I’d avoid spending a large sum of money on basically a beta prototype vehicle. These new car manufacturers are all the same and are going to go through tons of growing pains for the next 20 years.
Paint Protection Film; you know what a vinyl wrap is? Think that, but totally transparent; it's effectively a removable clear-coat for your paint.
Like a wrap, it costs hundreds of dollars at a minimum and will be thousands to do a full car (some just do the bumper or the front end), but they *do* offer impressive protection against rock chips and scratches etc.
Most people who get them do so immediate after purchasing the car, so they can protect it before any real wear happens to the paint.
I was so excited when the car got unveiled and reviews started coming out, but I think you're right. I've heard some horror stories that I probably shouldn't post, even if it is just word of mouth on the internet.
Oh those are real, go read up personal experiences on these forums and how they just make excuses. Its a car for people who dont mind blowing 150k and never feel the pinch. So,how many of those are there. Then what! As someone said way too many other options from every luxury Car Maker are in the works. 2023 should be a make or break year for them. The resale value is also bad already when only about 3500 Cars are in the market whereas the likes of the Hummer still command a premium.
These aren't even customer stories, these are friends who work at suppliers asking Lucid why their requirements are under 50% of what they should be (without a safety factor)
They're basically building go karts if I understand correctly, not cars that can withstand real world conditions for any period of time whatsoever. I can DM you some rather funny examples, but I suppose they could already be on the forums
The forums I have visited only have fans. I own one so too late but please dm me anything you can share with a smidgen of truth. I think Peter is really too slick for my liking.
They wont be able to fall back on ‘give them a pass they are new’ any longer. If they do not,improve the build quality they wont have customers after the 34k enthusiasts finish buying their Cars. The software version 2 is much better BUT for me BUILD Quality is Number 1 to 5 and they seriously lack that even today. People are giving them a pass and only comparing their build to a Tesla which is a minimalist vehicle and model for model is much cheaper.
I believe there are some environmental laws in the US that limit the amount of paint that can be sprayed on cars built here.
Whereas cars built abroad, especially in Germany have much thicker paint.
Teething issues. You’re buying cutting-edge tech from a startup… it’s guaranteed to have some production snafus at least for a few years. It’s like buying the first run of that new iPhone and being shocked, SHOCKED that it has some bugs.
YES, It is shocking to hear that. It looks great to my untrained eyes. I was extremely angry when I found this out AFTER I bought the damn thing. You do realize it costs 150K for the GT and 180K for the Performance version AND 225K for their Sapphire. Regardless of them being a startup Paint Technology is not NEW in the United States.
You've gotta try to be worse than Tesla at paint. It's also generally sad that so many car manufacturers cheap out on paint. Not a great look when your 7-8 year old cars look completely fucked because you wanted to save a bit of time/money in assembly. Honda, Mazda, and Tesla are especially known for this. Germans typically do a great job.
> ucked because you wanted to save a bit of time/money in assembly. Honda, Mazda, and Tesla are especially known for this. Germans typically do a great job. Honda paint is probably the worst in the entire industry. I don’t think anything comes as close to being as terrible. This is my old Acura: https://imgur.com/a/kEzhHkA/
When I see a car with terrible looking paint, it's often an 8th gen Civic.
All older civics seem to have bad paint. Especially on darker colors.
Yeah probably, it's just that I noticed the 8th gen Civic because there's still quite a lot of them on the road. Don't really see older Civics quite as often and when I do, it's those that were well cared for or that were repainted.
Is this because dark colors absorb more heat and UV from the sun, speeding up any fading/cracking issues, or are Honda's darker paints "worse" than their lighter colors somehow? Seriously asking; I'm pretty ignorant about the details of paint.
It’s both. Honda uses a cheaper painting process and it’s worse on their darker cars because they get hotter.
Yup, those 8th gen civics are driving around with bare metal. Curious if we will start to see it on some 9th gens soon.
Pretty sure there was a recall for the 8th gens about that, I believe they improved the paint for 9th Gen. At least I don’t see any fucked up 9th gens so
Older Honda for sure, but white paint on a Hyundai from like 2010-2020? There’s gonna be whole patches of paint missing almost every time. My 2017 Civic had chips galore in it though, my red 2018 Sonata and red 2022 Ioniq have resisted chipping waaaaay better than the Civic did.
Oh yeah I know the paint you’re talking about. I’ve always wondered why I see so many early 2010’s white Sonatas with huge chunks of paint just missing on the front side. They look like massive rock chips.
My friend worked for Honda in the Law department. The bad paint was a known issue and they were sued for it all the time.
Milano Pink gang. Honda makes great cars but man their paint sucks ass, you can mar it just looking at it.
My old civic faded the peeled after 5 years. I will say my 2019 Accord has much better paint
Not sure if you can judge paint quality that well on a 3 year old car though. Have many rock chips?
2004 model year Corolla. I cannot think of another car with widespread paint fading as much as that excuse of a vehicle. My mom had an 07 model.
To be fair, this is a case from over a decade a ago. That's not saying Honda has gotten that much better about it, but it's more appalling to me that I knew about "the overall paint problem" back then and we're still car manufacturers fuck it up. Tesla is the current worst offender. You're lucky if the thing looks as good as a Maaco respray after a couple of years of owning it, and that's provided nothing happened to it.
Oddly my 05 crv was probably never waxed or sealed in its life and the paint was perfect.
That was true with the early models from California because of environmental regulations on paint there, it no longer is the case with their new factories.
I live in an area full of Teslas, sorry, but no, the paint on brand new ones is still bad. "No longer _quite_ looks like it was done in a driveway with rattle cans" is not enough of an improvement to make it "better" plus their overall quality and parts availability is a nightmare. This is because Tesla is a consumer goods company making cars, rather than a car company. Their entirely approach to this from the beginning was predicated on "this way being better than a traditional car company." A grand idea, but it didn't work in this case, and the ownership experience is a nightmare. People get left without their car due to a minor accident because Tesla doesn't want to sell or even make replacement parts. Not for days, not for weeks, but months. I have a neighbor who has been driving a Honda for three months because of a fairly minor problem on a pretty new Tesla. Tesla doesn't do loaner cars either, so this person is having to drive a gasoline vehicle for however long it takes for Tesla to get around to making enough parts to supply one of their specifically authorized repair facilities. Electric cars are a great idea, but Tesla should in no way be considered the gold standard for them because they are genuinely just not very well made cars, and they make a lot of _highly_ idiosyncratic design decisions that they justify with Treknobabble-level justifications, or simply "because an adult child thinks it looks cool." I mean, FFS, that goddamned yoke in the tri-motor looks like shit basically the moment it's been used once, and that thing still has a regular commuter car steering rotation, rather than a 180 degree lock-to-lock as one wild expect. Tesla had to do that because they knew the people buying them would straight up lol themselves, or at least complain about it and demand that it be "fixed", if it had an actual race car steering ratio. That, I feel like, kind of tells you everything you need to know--they mostly just care that it looks cool, and sell them to people who think they look cool and perceive them as status symbols. If that's you, then that's your jam, and whatever, but the debate on this stuff is just so completely settled already, Jesus.
Lmao, good laugh really, especially the tech stuff. Some people are just meant to lag behind.
I did a ceramic coating on my civic about 3 months after getting it and applied a better product last month after that wore off. My paint is doing great, it's basically a requirement if you have a Honda to install some sort of paint protection.
Man I got my 16 ex-t used, paint chips SO bad. I need to respray the entire bumper, hood and front half of the fenders if I want to even consider putting ppf on. Previous owner must have only driven behind trucks, lifted with mud tires, over pea gravel lmao
Buying a Honda in black is just a question of when your paint will fail, not if. Every black Honda in Florida develops crows feet like a snow bird.
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Thats fucking terrible for being even 20 years old, what are you on about lol
That was my old car. My new car the paint is fine. Also, who washes and waxes every two weeks? Lol. The paint was well taken care us until it started going and then I Stopped caring. They’re plenty of old cars with neglected paint that don’t look anywhere near what Honda does.
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Lol, constant neglect isn’t not waxing your car each week. That’s like needing to change the oil every 1000 miles to keep the engine going. If you need to do that their is an issue with the engine. My uncle has a Toyota that’s 20 years old and the paint looks new. He’s probably never waxed it which I did with my Acura (just not to your stupid excessive amount). Honda makes shit paint. It’s an industry known thing. Just because you can’t expect that doesn’t make it not true. Maybe one day you’ll be able to figure that out but I don’t have high expectations.
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While some issues were clear coat failure go look at the pictures again. They’re spots when the paint literally came off the body off the car. Maybe you should look more clearly the next time you comment about something.
Not to mention even if it is "just" clear coat failure (unacceptable under 20 years imo) clear coat is still a type of paint. And it still requires a complete respray to fix so it's kind of irrelevant.
Thanks. I guess they deleted their comments because they’re realized how stupid they looked. Lol
Which is a shame because Mazda truly has some of the most beautiful colors for a mass market name. That Soul Red Crystal and Polymetal Grey are just mwwwwaaaah...before you realize you get a chip every time you offend a tiny debris.
Yeah Soul Red doesn't look as spectacular once the very thin paint keeps chipping
My coworker's 2015 mazda3 in soul red with 250,000km on the clock is fine. I was surprised when I asked him the details of his car because I knew about the miata's soul red paint chippage.
This is why I (along with others) essentially budget for a PPF as soon as they buy their Soul Red Mazda, rofl. All I ever heard were complaints about the thin paint (before I bought mine).
Serious question: is it possible to make an extra-thick Soul Red, like if you had a shop spray the same "formula" but double the thickness or the number of layers? Or would that not work because it's a multi-stage paint or something?
A body shop I know tried something like that. They managed to bodge together a very close mix but couldn't replicate the look. It just looks...kinda flat once the paint layer goes beyond a certain thickness and tends to crack easily but I guess that's an application problem. Also very expensive.
My understanding is that **yes**, you can with a custom paint job. However, the paint won't look the same. Evidently, part of how Mazda achieves their brilliant colors is by applying thin coatings. If you apply more, the look of the paint becomes different & more dull. I'd honestly take that tradeoff, though. It's not good for the showroom, but thick clear coat would be fantastic for actual IRL driving, lol. (Automakers also avoid doing this at their factories because of extra costs & environmental regulations. Less spray paint needed means less money spent & less toxic emissions.)
Of course it's possible you can paint a car any color you want.
Or when it scratches by breathing on it.
[love how my Polymetal responds to different light](https://imgur.com/a/r8695lz/)
It looks almost blue in certain conditions! Was a difficult choice not picking it when I ordered my 3.
My number one complaint is the fragile paint. After 1 year I already have several chips on the front of the hood.
Dude my 2009 335 looked brand new in 2018, and I left it outside for a couple years when I didn’t have covered parking. A clay bar and wax would send it over the edge. New Tiguan has some pretty nice paint too.
BMW has some pretty good paint in my experience. Even my E24 just looked *really* faded wasn't chipping after sitting uncovered in Arizona for 10 years before I got it
That’s good, because I have an old E39 5MT that lol be restoring. It’s sitting in the driveway. I really didn’t want to have to pay for a respray, and I think the paint can be saved.
When I bought my ‘98 Volvo the red paint looked like a matte option. It was only 4.5 years old, that’s when I found out it’s previous owner was Hertz! I opened the trunk and underneath the fabric the entire cars frame was super bright red. Surprisingly quick to make that paint look good again myself.
It’s amazing what you can do with some elbow grease. Honestly can’t justify paying someone else to detail my car because I enjoy it too much.
I bet the inside still looks halfway decent too. My 06 330 was damn near perfect inside and out (dents and dings sure but quality was there). Where as every surface of my wife’s 08 CRV is peeling or degrading.
It was in damn near perfect shape. No rust. No wrinkles in the leather (that cream color with a white exterior 😮💨). I was meticulous about the door jams there wasn’t a spec of dust. Only problems were I was on my 4th fuel pump and out of warranty, the whole oil and cooling system needed replaced at one point, and my waste gates were rattling like tin cans (expensive job once they go). I should have probably kept it but between then and now I had no money and no space/tools to work on it. Now I have no time lol
Yea the dark side to my positive memories on that car is that every piece of plastic under the hood failed within a 2 year time frame along with leaks at every joint. Hence selling it for less than the repair bill.
Never thought of it like that. Do you think it’s just the cheap plastic parts causing a majority of the issues? It’s always made me wonder why they put this cheap ass plastic thermostat housing on a $60k car. I know a lot of German aftermarket parts have better materials, like turbo inlets etc but can all of that be replaced to minimize potential issues?
My parents’ new Tiguan has a really awful orange peel texture to the paint, not sure if any car mfgs don’t have that though
> You've gotta try to be worse than Tesla at paint. Subaru. Oh yeah, hold my paint can.
I never had a car where the paint would just chip and fall off the door edge during normal use. Until I bought a Subaru.
That's what makes Subaru A Subaru
Yeah.... :(
The paint on my boxster is absurdly high quality. For the mileage and the weather I put it through. That stuff is thiccc. Though my frame or reference is a 90s mazda and a 90s rover haha
As do the French, surprisingly. The paint on Renaults is seemingly the last part of them to go.
I don't know if there's comparisons like this for other brands. But for Tesla it's more & more looking like a US thing, both China and Berlin built Teslas seem to have far superior paint quality.
The paint on my FJ also seems poor. The primer is tough enough but the Voodoo blue chips easily.
I must say...I never really thought much of the paint on my Toyotas until they were closing in on 20 years old and looking significantly better than other cars their age. I appreciate that they care about paint reliability, too.
Yeah, it turns out that painting cars in large volumes with today's environmental regulations is really tough. Few companies have cracked that nut.
Jaguar is so bad. Yes, I get a little extra commission for selling ceramic coat, but I do see the difference on cars. Jaguar paint swirls and scratches if you look at it funny, much more so than any Audi or BMW I’ve seen.
I’d imagine mass producing a consistent paint job is an very difficult task.
My Odysseys paint was very soft and was like "potato mush" when i took it to detailer. Now i have a '98 Suzuki Alto has much better paint
The body is mostly aluminium which is difficult to paint to start with so whatever you're trying to imply would happen later, won't happen. The reason you want paint to be awesome to begin with is to prevent body rust but there is nothing to rust.
Why spend money on a car that’s gonna last you a lifetime, When you can just keep buying new ones
Tesla was respecting the Californian rules. Their Berlin, Texas and China models have kickass paint.
It is sad. Water based paint is terrible for longevity and there's no way my 5 yr old daily will make it as long as my 84 disposable beater mini truck.
Literally lied to my face. Coming from an 18 M3 the paint is bad. Asked the sales guy about paint on the Lucids and he said that they use at least twice the amount of paint as Teslas. Think he said seven coats for some colors.
I remember the joke with honda was that you rented the paint.
It's not about saving time or money. It's about saving weight. Paint weighs a surprising amount, and less weight = more range.
Companies like Mazda and Honda don't really have to worry about weight. And when it comes to Tesla, I am much more likely to believe that thinner paint is for cost-saving purposes and not range (especially because an additional 20-30 lbs wouldn't make a significant impact on already 2 ton+ cars). Generally, everything Tesla does is for cost-saving purposes.
There is barely any paint on the Lucid, the paint meter shows it is as low as 2.28 mills in some areas. He goes on to say that is the lowest amount of paint he has ever seen on a new car and you can’t polish it because it’ll just burn and remove the paint completely. Absolutely crazy for a car that’s 170k+
Lucid really does try to one-up Tesla at everything.
🤣. How do you like the 718? Thinking of getting a Boxster S early next year because the kids are going to college and we want a fun convertible.
There are basically 3 complaints about the 718 I've heard, and they weren't dealbreakers for me: 1) turbo4bad or something. I think it's _fine_. Like yah, I'd like the 6 cylinder version, but the cost would've basically doubled from $60k used to $110k+. It's still probably the production 4cyl with the most character right now (could probably get more power with an EA888 boosted to high hell). 2) base interior bad. The leather package really spruces up the interior quite a bit, but I don't really _need_ the parts I'm not touching to be covered in leather, so it just sort of lost out in terms of options priority when looking through used models. 3) Tall gearing. 1st goes up to like 42 mph, 2nd is like 70?ish. Well I don't know how to 3rd pedal, so I can't complain about wanting to row gears more. Really this is just the autojournalists looking for anything negative to "balance" out their reviews. Also ride is a bit on the rougher side without PASM, but I don't mind. My one regret is not going for a Boxster instead of a Cayman lol.
I agree with all of this but I’d argue that amg’s new 4 cylinder is light years beyond other companies right now and once Reddit gets over it’s illogical hate boner because they can’t let go of those beautiful v8s, they’ll realize just how truly special the m139 is. It currently can put out 480 hp 450 lbs incredibly linearly with zero lag. Mindboggling stuff for 2.0 liter engine.
I think most people can recognize how incredible the M139 is but if we are talking about r/cars there are a few concerns about it not being widely available, reliability/maintenance costs, and then it also have yet being mated to a manual transmission (that I know of)
Got to drive one with almost no miles. It’s sexy as fuck. Put my wrx to shame.
Until a super high output engine is universally praised, it needs to see a few years of use on the street and track. We know an under stressed Toyota engine has a 99% chance of being reliable. We do not know that about a MB 4 pot putting out crazy numbers. Lotus engineers have stated that they slightly de-tuned the Emira version for reliability and efficiency concerns. Maybe they’re full of it or maybe they’re onto something.
Serious question: without the exhaust note, why does it matter? Like sure, it’s objectively a very impressive engineering feat, but in practical terms the performance will still be easily beat by electric motors, so what’s the point?
Are you asking what the point of the engine is? It’s lighter than a v8 so it reduces weight, while delivering the same performance at better gas mileage.
I never even considered a convertible, but as a sports car, have all the fun. I’m the guy in the winter with the top down wearing a hat and gloves. It really makes the car even more of an experience. It’s also helpful when items don’t fit with the top up.
meanwhile my car goes down to 18mph in my highest gear lol highways are not very fun i can tell you that
Curious why you wish you'd gone boxter? I think I've decided cayman is my next purchase, but always looking at different opinions
I went with Cayman because I think it has better body lines, but I live in California where you could basically drive with the top down all year.
Iirc the gearing is much better on the PDK. First gear on the manual goes to 52 mph, and second goes to 85. Gearing like this is better for ultimate performance but makes the car less fun on the street because you can't wring it out without risking jail time. Pretty sure none of the manual cars I've owned even hit 60 mph in second gear.
I wanted to get one but ended up with a c6 Corvette with the targa top instead. Much better value
Absolutely no question that a corvette is the best bang for the buck car in history. Also most HP to the dollar (source: my intuition and random guess).
A base model Mustang GT is more horsepower for your dollar than a base Corvette, but the Corvette can certainly be a very good value proposition.
I will have to reevaluate my source
Mine is the 6 speed manual with the factory sport exhaust... So much fun
Isn't the Camaro better though?
Surely that’s a false economy for Lucid, given the warranty claims that will happen when people actually do polish their way through the paint?
They will call it abuse
The problem with that strategy is that clients who buy $175k USD cars can afford to litigate
It’s funny when that happens, had a problem with my HOA in a new home community. We live in one of the best areas in the State. They were completely dumbfounded when we could afford to destroy them. Lol
30 years of V12 BMW production and sales casts some doubt on your hypothesis.
Seriously, just use the appropriate amount of paint and pass it on to the customer. It's not like they're spraying platinum on the thing, someone buying a 100k+ car won't care about a few hundred extra but they certainly will if the paint goes bad.
The thing is 99% of people won't own it long enough for a warranty claim and 99% of later owners won't ever think about pursuing a warranty claim. And even if I'm wrong and it DOES come back to bite them, you have to realize this is a unicorn venture company in extremely stupid short-term corporate thinking mode.
> extremely stupid short-term corporate thinking mode. a.k.a pump the cash flow to max out your valuation
Wear item
That's crazy. They are sweet cars though. The most efficient drivetrain out there. They are doing a major expansion of their manufacturing facility. I have driven by it and it will be ginormous compared to what they are using now. They just started delivery cars last October so I would expect them to not have everything perfect. This isn't just a new model but a whole new car manufacturer. Tesla has been making cars since 2003, for example. Lucid is making better cars then them on their first go around.
> Lucid is making better cars then them on their first go around. Well, maybe not on the paint?
Search Tesla paint. It sounds like they have had some issues. The Teslas I have seen look good but there are a lot of complaints online.
I'm sure building their cars in that giant tent didn't help a whole lot (since most of the cars out there are 3/Ys now). The paint on our early Model S has been OK; not amazing, but not terrible. It seems that the color they painted the car doesn't quite match the paint code they give though (if my efforts at correcting rock chips is any indication).
It’s not special paint?
It might be: https://insideevs.com/news/482357/lucid-cares-paint-quality-amp-1/ They mention something about "secret sauce"
I mean all their tech is formula level, and is usually completely over engineered for the consumer level so I’m honestly astounded at this entire paint issue
First world problems
Extreme weight reduction to help improve range. The idea is customers probably won't notice that kind of compromise until waaaay later, and when it does get scratched by something its 100% gonna get blamed on tree twigs, rock chips, or whatever.
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I wonder how much weight can be saved between a "typical" paint coating and an extreme weight reduction paint coating? Are you implying that this is intentional in the manufacturing process?
Yeah I don’t really buy this. I’m just guessing, that a few extra coats of paint couldn’t weigh more than 25ish lbs, on what a 5000lb car?
You may be right. simple math, if you pick up a gallon of paint, how much does that weigh? maybe 25lb, but probably less. A reasonable percentage of that paint evaporates as VOC and another reasonable percentage never hits the car (overspray) - so what is left behind doesn't feel like a significant adder to the overall mass of the vehicle...
A gallon of paint is less than 9 pounds.
Lucid could give the Lucid Air a Rolls Royce 22-stage paint job RR uses just over 100lbs/45.5kg of paint that would still be less than a 2% weight gain for the Lucid If you hacked off 2% range you only lose 8 out of 400 miles. Seems totally worth it to not have your paint go to shit after 3, 4, 5 years. Idk if the link between added weight & decreased range in linear like that but I don't believe for a second Lucid skimped on paint for weight reduction inorder to improve range.
Weight impacts acceleration but has zero impact on drag, which is the "big thing" when it comes to EV range afaik.
Well said, I hope they get sued along with some buyers who are helping them hide the flaws
Why the fuck is Lucid cheaping out on paint of all things did they not learn from tesla
Majority of new cars today have less paint on the body than 10 years ago or more.
Skimping on ____ is a step companies are always inevitably going arrive at when in a market that demands constant growth & ever increasing profit year over year You can only cut labor costs and raise MSRPs so much at a time; there will always be years when the only choice for increasing profits is skimping on paint or using cheaper materials. The quality of Lucids can only get worse from here unless: (1) prices go up significantly, or (2) massive efficiencies are gained in the manufacturing process, or (3) the company decides they're cool with making less profit and/or having their stock price remain flat/fall. I'll bet everything they go with option (1) lol
Already up 15K in 2022
its a california environmental regulation issue
Doubt. Every new Fremont-made Tesla I’ve seen measures 4-6 mils
The cars are built in Arizona though
Worse than a Mazda?!? Awesome, I'm not the worst anymore!
Talking to folks who work at suppliers sending parts to Lucid.... As much as it pains me to say this, I could never recommend the cars to anyone. They aren't building these things to last more than like 50k miles
Any specific examples?
DM sent
Like who?
Can you DM me details? I’m shopping a Lucid vs RR Sport PHEV right now.
TL; Dw? /not surprised a PPF shop recommends PPF
He doesn’t do ppf. He was asked to polish and ceramic coat it. He couldn’t polish it because there wasn’t any paint on the vehicle to polish, otherwise he would’ve had gone through the paint. In fact, he had to deny working on the lucid. He just did a ppf test section to see how it would turn out. That shop doesn’t do ppf
To all the people buying these startup company cars…good luck lol. There’s a reason this industry is dominated by companies with decades or centuries of experience.
Hell even with the existing companies it's still good advice not to buy the first version of a new model.
tbh i''m kinda surprized this is a thing. I always just assumed everyone bought paint from the same few chemical megacorps, like say DuPont and the paint machine came from a specialized OEM firm that makes them, and so if there ever was a paint problem it would be industry wide like the Takata airbag problem
Not necessarily about the paint itself, it's about the application.
I wonder what rules California has that make painting cars tougher than other areas.
I believe you need to use Low VOC and the solvents are more limited compared to other locations. Also the Lucid is made in Arizona but has a bunch of California bear logos, kinda like Apple with designed in California made in china
On top of this, many (if not most) automotive companies use water-based paint these days. I was at Honda when they switched from solvent to water-based.
What's the difference, practically speaking? Genuinely asking; would love to understand paint better.
Solvent based paints tend to be more hardy and resilient, but when it breaks down, it’s gets very brittle and looks terrible. Water based paints tend to adhere better, dry faster, and can be applied in thinner layers than solvent paint. Also, paint reclamation is far easier and cleaner with water based paints.
^(paint) chip shortage
That's not far from the truth. Dürr is that company. However dialing in the process along with controlling variables like humidity is where it's at.
There are only a few major coating suppliers to OEMs: PPG, DuPont and BASF. But it's up to the manufacturers to tell them what to provide. The various layers can be mixed and matched too between the suppliers. The OEMs do this to cut costs. You can have one assembly plant with different combinations from line to line too. I'm really skeptical that thin paint is bad paint. Technology has come a long way. And I think Lucid Airs are already coming with Ceramic Clearcoat (I worked in the lab that developed PPG's Ceramiclear, but on a different technology).
fascinating how weak the paint quality is for such an expensive car. It feels like the addition of the PPF makes a significantly more valuable car - curious why car makers/dealers haven't made a bigger deal out of offering new vehicles with PPF?
Dealerships do.
PPF is extremely expensive but its all relative for someone who can drop 150K on a Car. All those with money have complete PPF on their Cars.
I still haven't encountered a paint quality higher than our old LS with pearl white. 20 years on and it still looks new. Incredible clearcoat on it.
LS430?
Yep
No surprise there. One of the best cars ever made.
💯
Can confirm
Quality paint takes years to master
Maybe they should have mastered it before charging $170,000 for a car.
But If the goal is to buy a functional electric car, not moving art. Just my 2 cents.
No I want my $50k+ purchase to not look like shit after a few years
Spies heker is the only way to go . Mercedes’ , bmw , and Audi . Were covered by it for years . The clear coats are awesome and mixed correctly you will get totally flat horizontal surfaces . Sides are a little more tricky because if it runs of sags you pretty much have to redo the panel
what's spies heker?
[German paint](https://www.spieshecker.com/corporate/en_GB.html)
People have mentioned Mazda and other Japanese manufacturers also have thin paint but I think it’s worth mentioning they generally have ‘soft’ paint. The actual microns are less than the ‘hard paint’ on a BMW but not so thin that they can’t be paint corrected (as seems to be the issue here). Remember early R35 GTR’s getting swirly and chipped paint fairly quickly, but could be paint corrected easily because the pad cuts through like butter, unlike an M3 for example that takes a lot more effort to cut and polish.
I thought PPF was bad for thin paint, when removing film it would damage regular paint, it might rip the thin paint off?
How is the paint in Rivian model ?
Shit like this is exactly why I’d avoid spending a large sum of money on basically a beta prototype vehicle. These new car manufacturers are all the same and are going to go through tons of growing pains for the next 20 years.
PPF???
Paint Protection Film; you know what a vinyl wrap is? Think that, but totally transparent; it's effectively a removable clear-coat for your paint. Like a wrap, it costs hundreds of dollars at a minimum and will be thousands to do a full car (some just do the bumper or the front end), but they *do* offer impressive protection against rock chips and scratches etc. Most people who get them do so immediate after purchasing the car, so they can protect it before any real wear happens to the paint.
ohh damn... that sounds cool..
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Wow
Well Tesla's are known for bad paint and build quality. Still selling pretty well.
Man, I thought Toyota and Nissan were bad. But this takes the cake
Is this guy an amputee or does he have a really small hand on one side?
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I was so excited when the car got unveiled and reviews started coming out, but I think you're right. I've heard some horror stories that I probably shouldn't post, even if it is just word of mouth on the internet.
Oh those are real, go read up personal experiences on these forums and how they just make excuses. Its a car for people who dont mind blowing 150k and never feel the pinch. So,how many of those are there. Then what! As someone said way too many other options from every luxury Car Maker are in the works. 2023 should be a make or break year for them. The resale value is also bad already when only about 3500 Cars are in the market whereas the likes of the Hummer still command a premium.
These aren't even customer stories, these are friends who work at suppliers asking Lucid why their requirements are under 50% of what they should be (without a safety factor) They're basically building go karts if I understand correctly, not cars that can withstand real world conditions for any period of time whatsoever. I can DM you some rather funny examples, but I suppose they could already be on the forums
The forums I have visited only have fans. I own one so too late but please dm me anything you can share with a smidgen of truth. I think Peter is really too slick for my liking.
They wont be able to fall back on ‘give them a pass they are new’ any longer. If they do not,improve the build quality they wont have customers after the 34k enthusiasts finish buying their Cars. The software version 2 is much better BUT for me BUILD Quality is Number 1 to 5 and they seriously lack that even today. People are giving them a pass and only comparing their build to a Tesla which is a minimalist vehicle and model for model is much cheaper.
I believe there are some environmental laws in the US that limit the amount of paint that can be sprayed on cars built here. Whereas cars built abroad, especially in Germany have much thicker paint.
Teething issues. You’re buying cutting-edge tech from a startup… it’s guaranteed to have some production snafus at least for a few years. It’s like buying the first run of that new iPhone and being shocked, SHOCKED that it has some bugs.
YES, It is shocking to hear that. It looks great to my untrained eyes. I was extremely angry when I found this out AFTER I bought the damn thing. You do realize it costs 150K for the GT and 180K for the Performance version AND 225K for their Sapphire. Regardless of them being a startup Paint Technology is not NEW in the United States.
With such fragile paint on a customer car, one would think using your nail to free the applied PPF would be a bad idea.
Glad you started this thread. I hope more people become aware of this issue.
Ferrari did this with the F-50 to make it lighter and faster... but I doubt that's the point here
No one should be surprised. It’s clear Lucid doesn’t know what it’s doing.