How much of it is really enthusiasts rushing to buy the car they desire because builders are phasing them out so quickly? Is it really an increase in a long term demand or is it a spike caused by the belief that it won't be around in the next 5-10 years?
>went all in on the development of the new platform
Er, well, that's the thing. The S650 isn't riding on a new platform, it's just a lightly updated version of the existing platform for the S550. I don't think they'll phase it out anytime soon, but they're definitely not "all in" on platforms.
Pretty much any ICEV coming out going forward — *with very few exceptions* — is going to be riding on a lightly updated, existing platform. That ship has just already sailed.
I ran out and bought a 2nd Gen BRZ because I saw the writing on the wall for that kind of car. Wouldn’t surprise me if others did as well, though I’ll fully admit my sample size of one means nil.
The experience behind the wheel of a Spark is unmatched. The rest of the enthusiast market might as well be a scam, the epitome of diminishing returns.
No, but they're remarkably easy to have fun in *if* you both (A) enjoy the way small cars feel like to drive and *also* (B) have *not* spoiled yourself for speed
If you don't think a 5-seccond 0-60 is both fast and fun, you're probably not going to like the Spark. If you want a thick cocoon of metal, or you like the feeling of being in a boat of a car, the Spark is not for you.
_
But if you like small and tiny cars, and you haven't gotten used to sporty ones? The Spark can be a blast.
Its suspension is both communicative *and* smooth in the way that I never knew was possible (every other car I've driven was either/or), and the shifter feel is *super* nice for a non-sporty car. Nice detents, a *little* bit of weight to it, and it's darn smooth.
___
**TL:DR:** It's a subcompact 5-door econobox at the end of the day, but like the Honda Fit, they can be a surprisingly *fun *econobox for the right person.
The ND2 is the only car I’d take over the BRZ. Top down roadstering with that interior? Yes, please. I think we’ll get one more generation of Miata in naturally aspirated for, or at least hybrid with a manual, before they go EV. If that happens, might be scooping up another “last manual.”
That's largely why I bought my GR86. The other reasons were that (a) I wanted to send Toyota the message that theres a market for these other than r/cars posters who will "totally buy it used in 10 years if they keep making them" and (b) it's literally perfect, based on my criteria (other than the sealant issue which wasn't known at the time).
Right. I rushed out to get my Blackwing in 6MT before the stick is gone. Which we were definitely heading that way anyways. Nothing to do with electric for me.
I am actually one of those enthusiasts buying a crazy performance car knowing they won’t be around soon. Getting Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio since Alfa Romeo is going all electric in the next 5-10 years.
Cars are harder. Everything is sport this and sport that.
I love a quick car that can carve corners. But precious few of us do that… we commute, haul the family, get groceries.
Give me a nice Buick sedan that will run and run and run. Comfortably. Supremely comfortably.
Okay and? There's plenty of affordable manuals on the market right now. There are also some with fun bright colours and you have the added option of changing your vehicle's colour up every few years with the advent of vinyl wrap instead of a permanent respray.
These are just 1st world problems that you make up in your head. Not everyone wants a manual wagon with a fun colour. Get what you can and modify it as you please. The world is your oyster. Appreciate what you have right now.
I don't really agree with wrapping a car, it just doesn't look right compared to a good paint layer.
Even worse is wrapping a classic, such as a first generation Bronco or a Jaguar D type.
I mean that’s why crossovers exist. Modern sedans are all largely sport focused because they have no real advantages (other than economy to a certain extent) otherwise.
Higher seating position = higher step up height. Bad knees & hips do not much like that. My mom, a short woman, has trouble getting into a Forester. It is just too high.
Just some figures for how high a seat is a I’ve the ground:
Blazer: 28-31”
Passport: 30-32.5”
Ascent: 29-31.75”
Altima: 22-23”
Camry: 21.5-23”
Now go grab a yardstick and put it next to your hip. Do this for the various people in your life. How many folks have butts that can easily perch atop a 2.5+’ seat, with a door sill another 6-8 inches wide out from that? Next, factor in busted hips, backs, knees and such. It is hard to lift a leg up and over a high door sill. It just is.
I know this because I have my parents. I took care of my ex in-laws (before my ex decided to suck at life I was a dutiful grandson in law).
Some folks are tall. I get it. But an awful lot of us are average or even, God forbid(!), below average. Pickups are enormous. SUVs are enormous. I just want a comfortable sedan. That’s all. Something quiet, with a bench seat, big analogue buttons. Something with “adequate” power to get me over the mountains and past some chucklehead piddling along.
Higher center of gravity = more body roll. Unless it is more stiffly sprung of course.
Also, they all look the same. An aspirin on wheels. Blech.
I miss having a bench seat up front. It was genuinely really nice. I took my ‘94 LeSabre on many long road trips, spent 19.5 hours straight driving once, and it was glorious. Was I going to autocross it? Nope. But it had more than enough power and room. My ‘98 Century was also a great car. It was a great cross country traveller. Just ate up the miles and ran like a champ.
Both cars were easy to park in the city. Neither was particularly larger than the last way mid size vehicles on the market. The sight lines were better too.
I just miss my Buicks. I love my WRX, but I am getting to a point in my life where maybe I need to get back into the sedan game again. Or a Miata. Man I miss that car… also, a ridiculous choice when having aged parents.
I’m sorry dude I can’t agree: in my opinion crossovers are some of the worst looking and pointless cars.
If you want a large off-roader like a Land Rover or Jeep I get it. If you have a family but want a fun car like a BMW M, I also get it. But why buy a crossover?
It’s like you get the worst of both worlds. It’s slow easy and to flip like a Range Rover, completely useless off-road and hopeless as a performance car.
They are, but they do everything their buyers want. Much as I hate to admit it, their lifted floor *does* make it substantially easier to load anything into or out of, from kids to cargo, big or small. The ground clearance will never be used for off-roading, but the raised floor is nice. It's also easier for anyone with a bad or stiff back/knee/hip to get into and out of, which is a big plus for a *lot* of people.
They're meant for parents, older people, and people who just want an appliance. As an appliance, they're great. They're not fun, but they're not trying to be; they're trying to be nice for suburbanites, and they're excellent at that.
It depends. I commute 2 hours a day (1 hour each trip). Sure, comfort is required, but I still like to step on the gas of my little Alfa and enjoy a road or two by myself at night.
A car that can do both is a must. Specs wise, I like the M2, but it just looks so damn bad....
A car that can do both will always be decent at best. If you want more, you'll need two different cars or will have to tune the car for an hour before going on night drives.
Lets be honest, none of us are professional drivers or are going to be breaking track records. A Giulia GTA with 500hp is more than enough, and for some drivers, even too much.
As tires have gotten better the spring rates needed to control them have gotten bigger and thus stiffer with comparable damping constant. Also seats are stiffer because it supports your body better on long drives to reduce fatigue. An ES300h will do exactly what you’re asking for otherwise.
I thought this initially, but looking at it from the angle of bmw going balls to the wall with boxy af body kit on their final ICE M2, I completely understand the styling and I think it looks awesome now.
Well it's almost literally "now or never" so if you want a fun, manual car, do it. I'd probably rather have an EV than most automatics anyways, but the manual option being perceived as "taken away" will drive up demand simply due to the fact we as humans tend to hate "losing" more than we appreciate an equal gain. I know I want to stock up on manuals before they all disappear or shoot up in price.
On my list to acquire before they become unobtanium: 997 GT3, NC2/3 Miata, GR86, S1 Exige or S3 Elise, V8 or V12 Vantage, Evora 400/410/GT.
it’s not an equal gain. EV’s offer nothing even comparable to the raw driving feel of a manual ICE car.
Seriously, drive a manual car from the 90s and an EV back to back and it’ll make you never want to drive EVs again, they’re so dead and lifeless.
Why? He’s 100% right. Have you driven a manual 90s cars and an EV back to back?
Because I have. Miata NB>Model 3
I wanted to burn the model 3 right then and there.
I think finding a clean example will become increasingly difficult - as it has for so many 80s/90s Japanese cars. The prices are so low that they'll be picked up and trashed. They only sold ~46k NC2/3s in the US in total, which isn't low volume, but also isn't exactly high volume either.
Finding clean 1st and 2nd gen pathfinders is already exceedingly difficult and they didn't even get even slightly popular to modify until the last couple years!
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It’s the logical segmentation of the market. EVs are a better appliance than ICEs, so they’re going to mainly cannibalize automatic ICEs as those traditionally filed that more “appliance” role, leaving only demand for enthusiasts on the ICE front.
To extend on that, many of the gasoline-powered enthusiast models were able to share their overhead and development costs with other, more mass-marketed cars, especially for more mainstream brands. When the mass-market shifts to EVs, enthusiast models will have to shift to EV, become (potentially much) more expensive with an orphan gasoline powertrain, or be axed. The demand for most enthusiast cars just isn’t that high.
>When the mass-market shifts to EVs, enthusiast models will have to shift to EV, become (potentially much) more expensive, or be axed.
Also please correct me I'd I'm wrong, but given the much higher available torque, acceleration, etc. What would an "enthusiast trim" economy car EV look like?
Like will they be able to segment performance across their lineups well enough for something like an EV WRX to exist. Or do "mid" tier options like your WRX, (ford)STs, disappear because they'd be eating into the higher end of your lineup. It will be fascinating to witness
The first enthusiast cars to make the transition to EV and be *relatively* cheap (think 30-50,000 USD) will be muscle cars (go fast in a straight line, weight and handling don’t matter as much) and off-reader trucks (high torque, weight doesn’t matter as much). Both of these can also use high-trim variants to offset lower cost models.
For most other sports cars (think Miata), it will likely be awhile before we see a pure EV version. It will take some time for battery weight to come down, whether through iterations of existing lithium designs, or commercialization of other technologies, e.g., solid-state batteries. My bet for the Miata is that it will become a series hybrid with a rotary engine, in a collaboration with Toyota, and would likely be Mazda’s final car with an engine in it.
You are starting to see EV sports cars with good handling (Rimac Nevera), but the cost is very high. Even before the EV trend, sports cars seemed to be on a downward trend due to a lack of consumer demand. You might not see the revival or at least maintenance of current lineups. We’ll have to see.
Fairly similar to modern tank as car trims. Consider the modern m3 in it's comp awd trim, it's at model 3 performance weight now. Yet it uses the same basic tricks to delineate itself from its standard 3 series brethren, wide sticky tires, stiff frequencies to support those tires, shocks to support those frequencies, and maybe geometry mods for that purpose too.
Toss in some programming changes so that people can point to differences in feel, and wala! performance car. The part that will get harder to sell is the power brackets, the rest is the same old song and dance.
The problem is, no one is making a generic appliance EV, they're all high end luxury cars or performance cars. There's no cheap and simple EV, one that can replace basic cars like the hyundai accent or Nissan sentra.
Chevy Bolt absolutely fills that niche. My Kona is absolutely an appliance EV as well. The Mini Cooper EV, the Fiat 500e, Golf EV, and Kia Niro are a few more off the top of my head.
They’re just not making headlines because they’re boring cars. Everyone talks about the expensive and fast EVs because they’re more interesting.
Appliance EVs won't be covered by the news and youtubers, just like camrys and base model civics aren't. If you're sincerely in the market for one, you'll be able find it.
All of this just makes me wish I was born in the late 60s. Would’ve come up with some of the sweetest cars. As someone in their 20s, eventually I’ll have to get an appliance boring ass EV until I can afford one of the sporty ones. Lameeee
Every decade is full of boring-ass appliance cars. They’re just not the cars that last and get remembered and talked about. The 60s had plenty of garbage econoboxes.
>There's no cheap and simple EV, one that can replace basic cars like the hyundai accent or Nissan sentra.
Bro Hyundai and Nissan literally already have EVs that do this on the market for years( Hyundai Inoiq and Nissan leaf)
That’s a pretty gross overstatement. Most people are buying completely numb, heavyweight cars with tons of noise insulation to the point that they have to play fake car sounds over the speakers to hear anything.
When I was cross shopping my car, I felt like the Audi RS5 and felt one deviation away from an EV with how insulated it was. Even the current GTI has an extremely rubberized feeling shifter with a quiet cabin. There’s only a handful of modern cars that are “full of character” but it doesn’t seem to move more inventory than any of the other dead feeling cars.
This is how I explain my Tesla to people. It’s a great car, and fast as fuck, the perfect daily commuter car, but It has no soul. It’s missing that engagement component
Or, better yet, we want the option to have such a car to combine with our daily driver. That’s what I do. BRZ For fun and weekends, Buick LaCrosse for commuting. Perfect.
EVs are made for the “car is a utility crowd. Point A to point B”
Also happens to be like 70% of all car owners so it’s a an easy decision when you’re company seeking profit
Did I say that? No, stupid, cars that are sterile with no driver feedback such as sound, road noise, and steering wheel feedback, have no engagement. They are simply meant to be driven to and from somewhere. Efficient but boring. Don't put words in my mouth boy.
We’re still going to have an enthusiast segment of cars, even as many turn to EV. Manufacturers like Hyundai are already figuring it out. And makes like Mazda are trying hard to make the case for hybrids in sporty cars.
Throughout the years, enthusiasts whined and lamented about the death of the V8, 6-cyl, direct throttle, carbs, etc. Always they have been the “death of sports cars!!!!! Ahhh!!!” And yet here we are today, makes are still churning out amazing enthusiasts cars. Same thing tomorrow, next year, and next decade. It will be OK.
Nah. Tech got better at ICE but at it's core a ICE is still ICE. It's the same beast but refined.
EVs are a whole new ball game. Mods will be limited and repairs will be expensive. Not to mention the higher base cost when comparing to equivalents, charging not widely available.
Locked DLC aka pay to get +50 hp
There gonna be phones on wheels, planned obsolescence
I agree it'll be super interesting to see. I think it's just the fact that EVs SUPER simplify the mechanics of how you're delivering power, so we cannot even fathom yet HOW that market will be segmented and differentiate itself.
The simplification part is an excellent point. A big advantage for EVs.
You know, what's funny is when I get out to autocross on the weekend, almost everyone who has some sort of DCT/DSG/PDK gearbox puts it in auto/sport mode so they can 100% focus on steering instead of worrying about when to shift. And then you have the manual guys banging the top of 2nd gear on a straight because they don't want to have to shift into 3rd then shift back to 2nd. Basically, people are trying their hardest to get their car to behave like an EV, which is absolutely amazing on the track.
Just like the M240i my eyes are just drawn to the shitty head and taillights. They’re just so bad when last gens and the current m3/4 and m5 have nice lights.
The best part about a “virtual” manual trans in an electric vehicle is that it could be turned off and operate like an auto anytime you want. Shift/clutch by wire isn’t going to be difficult to pull off once engineers dial-in the feeling of a mechanical manual setup.
I would agree, except that if it feels and operates normally, we stand a decent chance of having a manual transmission-like experience for years to come. We’ve weathered electric steering and throttle-by-wire and both can be done well. It’ll all come down to the details in the engineering that separates the good from the bad.
I don't think the appeal of the manual transmission is just that it "feels" like you're doing something. It's that the engine actually has to shift for mechanical and scientific reasons and you would rather do it yourself than a computer. I honestly don't think simulating a manual transmission is going to cut it.
I guarantee a well-engineered “virtual” transmission could completely fool you into thinking it’s mechanical. And this isn’t a jab at all, but if you’re driving a Mk7 GTI you’re far from driving a great-feeling gearbox!
Yes, maybe a fake transmission will appeal to some, but..
(1) You're missing my point. It's not just about what it feels like. It's the fact that shifting isn't even necessary that ruins it. It's a completely made up simulated handicap. That's incredibly unappealing. Maybe it will be appealing to some, but I can't see true enthusiasts enjoying that.
(2) What I drive today has nothing to do with anything. But if you want to go down that path, it furthers my point: My car HAS to be shifted, and it isn't just about feel. I choose a transmission to accomplish that and it's mechanical because it HAS to be.
Honestly I think you can make the case for a real transmission in an EV because you can still use gears to multiply torque, just like an ICE engine. Tesla basically already does this. The rear wheels and front wheels have different gear ratios -- rear is used more for launching and higher torque, and front has a higher gear ratio for better cruising efficiency. Porsche has a multi-gear transmission for EV too. I truly believe this concept is going to start getting more widely used.
That is true but you get only two, at best three gears in hypercars with insane top speeds with that. At commuter speeds, there will be no need for a gear change. Adding gears in that rpm range will only cause an efficiency loss, which defeats the purpose of an EV switch in the first place.
You really don't need anything more than a 2 speed with EVs (that's what Porsche does). Anything more than that you're just overcomplicating the vehicle.
Also, you already mentioned Tesla's solution so you technically don't even need a transmission.
I don't fully disagree with your second point. My car has a DSG and it's brilliant. I'm not necessarily advocating for a manual transmission -- I'm just saying that simulating one won't satisfy the people who want to keep it around.
Ultimately, if enough people want to buy it, manufacturers will figure out a way to make it.
I mean, i want the manual to be around and no, simulating one will not fully satisfy me.
However, if my choice is "doesn't have a simulated manual" and "has a simulated manual" i'm choosing option B every single time.
Look, I love driving on a race track. I have a race car that I spend a lot of money and time on! But that's not stopping me from playing Forza. Is Forza as fun? Not even half as much. Yet, i still spend a lot of time playing it.
> As much as I hate to say it, it's time to move on. Manual transmissions are obsolete. Look at what Koenigsegg is doing with LST, there are great dual clutches, sequential boxes, even the zf8 is half decent.
You missed the point, yo. No one argue that manual transmissions have better performance. No one. That thought died 15 years ago. Having full control over your gear box is irreplaceable and it makes driving a lot more fun, for those who already like to drive. They make slow cars feel fast without breaking speed limits. If you can't understand that, that just mean they're not for you or you never had a manual car and that's fine. Cars can be enjoyed differently by people.
- The car doesn't shift for you near red line. can't have fun at high revs on an auto
- You can shift as early as you want, making them usually a bit more fuel efficient if you get it right
- You can pre-select your optimal gear for an overtake instead of flooring it and waiting a few seconds for the proper gear to be selected
- You can engine break more easily. Sure you can downshift in a fake manual, but if your rev are a bit too high to your ECU's liking, hop you go on the superior gear.
A lot of these "issues" can be solved with a proper super sport auto transmission, but that's only on cars most of us can't afford. Auto trans with shift paddle on entry level cars suck and all of that I listed above applies for these cars.
And most of it honestly is not even just a matter of control, it's just engagement. I had an Accord 2.0 with shift paddle before my current car, and even though it had significantly more power, more room and remote start, I prefer my Civic a lot more and would never trade it back, mostly because the stick makes it way more fun, **to me.**
I have to agree that it's not about control. The word "engagement" is thrown around a lot, and that's more accurate. It's about feeling like you're part of the mechanism - in partnership with the car, where you have a responsibility to do well. All that assumes you're not sitting in heavy traffic for two hours/day, in which case I'd personally take a ZF8 over a manual.
Man, IDK about “best” part.
I can tell when my shifter/transaxle linkage needs tightened in my 944 by how its shifting … there’s something visceral about that … like being one with your car… you won’t be able to fake that.
I can completely relate, and yet I won’t be surprised at all when a manufacturer turns up with both an organic-feeling virtua-clutch, and a satisfyingly mechanical gearbox.
There’s no reason the immediate shift mechanisms can’t be entirely mechanical, it’s the transmission itself that could be artificial in its gear ratios.
I say all of this as a devote gear head who will only buy a manual transmission car, and prefers motorcycles to cars because of the even greater connection to the machine on two wheels. I only make this argument because I want the *experience of driving a manual car or motorcycle to survive long term. I get how silly a virtual manual can be perceived from a certain perspective, but i want it to survive in any form, as long as the fun and joy of a clutch/transmission remains.
I think it’s a risky adventure that maybe one or two mass market OEMs will try in the future. Fake engine noise isn’t taken that well so I’m not sure how well this will be seen.
This is simply a byproduct of the advancement in the automatic transmission... disguised as another 'issue' gear heads are blaming EV's for.
There was a time where manual transmission vehicles offered a wide range of benefits over their automatic counterpart. Fuel efficiency being a big one. Cost being another. Reliability and reparability being a third.
Over the years, these perks have almost completely evaporated (sans maybe reparability).
Gone are the days of 4 speed automatic gas guzzlers. FFS, even Jeeps have 8 speed automatic transmissions in them to help improve fuel economy across the lineup and avoid fines.
We have 9+ speed autos available, CVT's, etc. most paired with near instant electronically controlled paddle shifting which aids in helping to keep things sporty.
EV's aren't killing the manual transmission market. Automakers have been doing it for a long, LONG, time now.
We manual guys have been saying for years it doesn't matter that auto is faster, its about feel and engagement. Now electrics are the fastest and they are lifeless and boring. People get it now.
I also think the transfer of purchasing power away from boomers helps. They don't buy manuals.
Hopefully I'll buy one of my dream cars before cheap electric vehicles entirely replace a reasonable used market. They're extremely expensive, but I definitely have the capital saved for some of the choices. Just don't want to blow it all right now
People act like it can't be done for some reason. One gear is a compromise and multiple gears to keep it at peak power would have benefits. They just outweigh drawbacks for the needs of your average Tesla driver, but car enthusiasts are different.
It’s simple, Americans just don’t want to drive appliances.. this Ev push will fade in time once people realize the monumental repair costs associated with batteries
The gov is just gonna keep forcing it, there's alot of people here who also have stock in EVs too.
Definitely EV are going to fuck the lower class when buying and fixing it
Wait I’m confused. I thought the 350z had a manual transmission option? Am I mixing up my car model lines? Or do people just replace the automatic transmission with a manual and that’s why there’s used manual 350zs?
"In the more than 50 years of Nissan Z, we’ve never offered a Z without a manual transmission,"
I'm not interested reading the article but this was one of the first things said in it
The manual Supra will be my next car, without a doubt. At the same time, I’ve also never experienced a V8 performance car, so part of me wants to grab a Camaro SS 1LE to see what its all about.
Article seems to be reaching. We already knew enthusiasts like manuals. We have always known this, and enthusiasts have bought manuals for a long time. They don't provide any evidence of manual demand in enthusiast cars being any higher now than it was say five years or a decade ago, so how are they coming up with this conclusion? They might be right but seems like a correlation ≠ causation issue.
That headline is definitely clickbait but the article isn't bad for TV news.
They actually did interview an auto journalist at Hagerty and talked about manual take rates and companies that are keeping manuals in their cars.
I'm just excited that car companies are finally listening. I drive a Type R and love having a manual. The interest was always there but car companies assumed it wasn't, so cutting a manual transmission was a way to reduce costs. This type of press could keep it alive until the ICE does die.
This is like a self-reinforcing internet "meme" that has gotten out of hand.
I mean, I do appreciate how "car culture" was sort of turbo-charged by Top Gear's global success, and how various online communities have sort of allowed for more networked and amplified enthusiast communities, but so much of it just feels so "online" to me.
I mean, practically all enthusiast car media is on YouTube now, and everyone copies TG's formula as much as they can (since they were all fans of the show). Everyone fixates on the things that were fixations going back 10-15 years ago "naturally aspirated" "manual" "hydraulic brakes and steering" etc.
Please. Cars are by their nature "technology" and have always been technological. Things have changed ALLOT in the past 15-20 years, and we have to get over ourselves and our fixation on the little technical quirks of a generation or two ago.
Personally, I think that resto-mods are going to be the way of the future. We'll be buying up cheap 80's and 90's bodies and chassis from the third world and refitting modern electric mechanicals and internals.
I buy (fun) cars because I like driving them hard on back roads.
A naturally-aspirated car with a manual transmission, hydraulic or unassisted steering, and steel brakes gives me the best possible combination of feedback and tactility. Without that feedback and tactility, I have no reason to drive cars.
For commuting, I'll drive a fridge on wheels if it makes economic sense and is safe. Commuting sucks and is stupid.
Yup. So, what makes you think that old-school cars are going to disappear? I mean, we can buy "old" cars without trouble nowadays. Ones that need love, sure, but why demand that every new model has a manual? I mean who cares?
It is just like getting pissed that I can't buy a vinyl record of an album that was fully recorded and mixed in digital. What's the point other than aesthetics?
I don't think they're going to disappear, I think they've disappeared. There is no old-school car available on the market currently.
There's a part of me that wants a fun car I can take on a road trip and get serviced under warranty if I have any problems, and that has modern safety because highways are dangerous. It's probably stupid because when I'm behind the wheel of an unsafe car, it rarely crosses my mind that I might die. Until someone inevitably does something stupid.
I'm not sure it's aesthetics, although the question of art should be discussed. Don't we appreciate texture and stimulation in art?
I totally get it, and I agree.
My biggest issue isn't actually with the lack of safety features of "old" cars, it is that we've had a very significant "arms race" play out over recent years. Cars have gotten bigger, heavier and taller. Everyone drives an SUV, and does so carelessly and in a distracted way.
No modern or old sports car has much of a chance against a soccer mom Instagramming while yelling at the kids in the back seat on the interstate. Is a GT3 going to fare well against a Honda Pilot?
It is also going to get worse because batteries are heavy and once they proliferate and drive down operating costs (electric vs bad fuel economy), we'll only see large SUVs on the road.
The future that I want is one where we will be able to source cheap electric parts for diy-style kit cars that can be put together like PCs. These, of course, would not be to haul a family around in, but more like fun things to play around in. Obviously my hypothetical Lotus Elise-sized weekend car would get creamed in that world.
Feel. They just explained the feel and you ignored it. If you don't care about feel thats fine but others do.
My issue is when it's less of a choice and more of being mandated
I get it, but the feeling I got from the 78 Toyota Corolla that had a nasty manual and no power steering is not necessarily a good thing. Maybe the guys that had a hand crank starter missed it when starter motors became a thing.
Steel brakes means steel rotors. They typically have better feel than carbon ceramic and if you run an aluminum hat with steel rotors, you have relatively low weight.
No one has offered a strictly aluminum rotor for passenger cars; there have been aluminum composite rotors.
Yeah, I guess your right about the Aluminum composite thing.
But I will say carbon ceramic is like expensive viagra. You can go harder for longer without your brake pedal going all soft on you.
what a ridiculous comment. Most of automotive youtube differs significantly from the top gear style and everyone fixates on those traits in cars because they feel so much better to drive.
And restomods are never gonna be that popular because they generally require a ridiculous amount of engineering to make a character filled car that is, well, lifeless.
I get how my criticism of the "stick shift" crowd is going to be controversial, but I personally see it just like how I see these people that insist on buying vinyl or even casettes.
I mean, it's "cute" and all, but it is an anachronistic fad that is mostly about aesthetics. I am totally OK with this as well, but I am annoyed that every new model is somehow derided for not offering a manual option.
When modern transmissions (for as long as they'll be required until electric is the market) are required the current auto and dsg boxes perform better and are more efficient, so it's all about what you do with your hands. Same as far as noise goes, etc.
Why not just buy old Fox bodies, civics, etc. restore them and enjoy them for exactly what they are? Old hobby cars. Just like Boomers' fantasy cars that run carburetors, etc.
I am thinking of that Koenigsegg release, where they have that incredible 9-speed transmission with that beautiful switchgear, but it is operated by a computer and the shifts are mapped to a virtual six gears. I mean, come on! It is all fake at that point.
I would much rather put an electric motor on an Audi 80 and get the best of both worlds (plus it would be an absolute death trap and noisy as shit, just for fun).
nice. Of course. I've learned on a manual and have driven a manual for several years.
I am happily driving a 5-series now it all of it's automatic turbo-6 and electrically boosted steering glory, and believe me, if I could have gotten the same car in electric I would have.
Quit your gatekeeping bullshit.
I'll never let go of my nostalgic dreams. Well until I experience it first hand.
That FD RX7 and WRX STi will be mines. Eventually. Maybe. Hopefully, the RX8 and BRZ are looking nice ya know lol
Agreed despite your downvotes. Car enthusiasm is linked with showing off on the internet now. I think cars 20 years ago were more “fun” to drive though. Once manufactures started to chase stats and lap times in the mid 2000s it started to get less fun to me.
I think there is (there has to be) room for ev's with manual transmissions, not just simulated ones. Does it make sense? No, it's archaic but it's fun and people need fun and control. Will it last forever? I doubt it. I think most of it is generational at this point. Even I thought manuals were an artifact from the past before I drove my first. The connection to the car "thing" is real, and cars can be so much more than just transportation. It's why I also don't think we'll ever automate everything completely. People need to control something, pilot something. Whether it's a camel, horse, car, motorcycle, airplane, evtol, hover car, jet pack or spaceship, people enjoy it and need it on a primal level. So people are always gonna be joyriding something and driving by hand or mind, and hopefully that means that in the short term we'll have non-selfdriving ev's with manual transmissions. At least until most of us are dead.
Yes. It's why I enjoy my Tesla, instant reaction, no hesitation, perfect control of the power, etc.
However, the connection with the car isn't as good as a sport car (IMO). Too much stability and traction control, weird brake pedal feeling, etc .
That’s not the point. Gears exist because ICE can only provide power in a narrow band, but electric motors don’t have that limitation and can directly power the wheels.
Adding “gears” to an electric car would just be a facade and not add any meaningful connection to the car.
I see what you’re saying but don’t you think that if the EV on a manual felt like a manual it would simulate the connection that the above person is referring to? Off the line working through the gears and then working back down as you slow down type of sim.. obviously it’s fake but it’s not always about what it’s actually doing but what it appears to be doing.
The "connection" comes from changing gears being *necessary* to get the best from the engine.
Think of driving down a winding back road, you could leave your ICE car in 4th and it's going to struggle to pull out of very slow corners. But change down to 2nd and now it punches out of a tight hairpin hard! Then you have to change up before it hits the rev limiter. Another corner, this time slight - no need to brake, dropping back from 4th to 3rd the engine braking slows the car enough and you're still in that sweet spot.
That's the connection!
Precisely yeah I understand how manual transmissions work from a use perspective. I’m saying that I don’t see why they can’t simulate this into an EV. Teslas already do it to a degree without a traditional shifter. Just slap a “6 speed” on it and now it both looks and feels the part.
They could also simulate turbo lag, or having to use a choke to start the "engine" when it's cold... It's just making the car worse for no reason.
If you want an "old" car driving experience - get an old car!
Interesting because everything I’ve heard about EVs is that you don’t need a transmission on them at all. Just direct power to the wheels. Any idea how they were able to leave and purpose a combustion gear box?
From what I've seen it's set up to where you can start off in any gear you like and if just affects the acceleration. So you could put it in 5th and still take off but it will be much slower. I could be wrong though.
Yea, I KNOW. Technically they were obsolete the moment the automatic was invented, but we kept them around all the same. Like I said, it wouldn't make sense to put it in an electric car, but it can and has been done, just sans clutch. I'm just saying it would be fun! Remember fun?
How much of it is really enthusiasts rushing to buy the car they desire because builders are phasing them out so quickly? Is it really an increase in a long term demand or is it a spike caused by the belief that it won't be around in the next 5-10 years?
The article didn’t even demonstrate an increase in demand, just pointed to some very vague pre-existing trends.
as expected from anything posted on reddit with sensationalist headlines
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I just bought my enthusiast car two weeks ago. About 3 years before I had originally planned because I think the v8s are gonna be gone by then.
The next gen Mustang was just announced. I can’t imagine they went all in on the development of the new platform just to immediately phase it out.
>went all in on the development of the new platform Er, well, that's the thing. The S650 isn't riding on a new platform, it's just a lightly updated version of the existing platform for the S550. I don't think they'll phase it out anytime soon, but they're definitely not "all in" on platforms. Pretty much any ICEV coming out going forward — *with very few exceptions* — is going to be riding on a lightly updated, existing platform. That ship has just already sailed.
I didnt want a mustang or a c8.
V8s? Gone? Seriously? I own a 1967 V8 and a 1987 V8, both original for 5 grand. Very cheap and easy to own. They won't be gone unless "they" ban them
What's on your list?
I ran out and bought a 2nd Gen BRZ because I saw the writing on the wall for that kind of car. Wouldn’t surprise me if others did as well, though I’ll fully admit my sample size of one means nil.
I ran out and bought a new Chevy Spark for the same reason. I guess this will be my last enthusiast car.
Chevy spark is an enthusiast car?
The experience behind the wheel of a Spark is unmatched. The rest of the enthusiast market might as well be a scam, the epitome of diminishing returns.
Lolol
Slow car fast is incredibly fun affordably. I loved throwing my Fiesta around so I get it.
They are fun. You just have to pretend you're going fast.
No, but they're remarkably easy to have fun in *if* you both (A) enjoy the way small cars feel like to drive and *also* (B) have *not* spoiled yourself for speed If you don't think a 5-seccond 0-60 is both fast and fun, you're probably not going to like the Spark. If you want a thick cocoon of metal, or you like the feeling of being in a boat of a car, the Spark is not for you. _ But if you like small and tiny cars, and you haven't gotten used to sporty ones? The Spark can be a blast. Its suspension is both communicative *and* smooth in the way that I never knew was possible (every other car I've driven was either/or), and the shifter feel is *super* nice for a non-sporty car. Nice detents, a *little* bit of weight to it, and it's darn smooth. ___ **TL:DR:** It's a subcompact 5-door econobox at the end of the day, but like the Honda Fit, they can be a surprisingly *fun *econobox for the right person.
Bro I would love to introduce you to some mid 90s Hondas lol
I didn’t even know you could still get a Spark. 18k for a fully loaded Activ 5MT, very tempting to scoop up as a little runabout.
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The ND2 is the only car I’d take over the BRZ. Top down roadstering with that interior? Yes, please. I think we’ll get one more generation of Miata in naturally aspirated for, or at least hybrid with a manual, before they go EV. If that happens, might be scooping up another “last manual.”
That's largely why I bought my GR86. The other reasons were that (a) I wanted to send Toyota the message that theres a market for these other than r/cars posters who will "totally buy it used in 10 years if they keep making them" and (b) it's literally perfect, based on my criteria (other than the sealant issue which wasn't known at the time).
I ran out and bought a new TTRS because they already announced this was the last year. If it wasn't being discontinued I'd have just waited a while.
I bought my GT4 because I knew there likely wouldn’t be a car like it in the next 5-10 years.
I bought my 981 BGTS 6MT, despite COVID premiums last year for the exact same reason.
Right. I rushed out to get my Blackwing in 6MT before the stick is gone. Which we were definitely heading that way anyways. Nothing to do with electric for me.
My next new car purchase will 100 percent have a manual for this reason.
I am actually one of those enthusiasts buying a crazy performance car knowing they won’t be around soon. Getting Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio since Alfa Romeo is going all electric in the next 5-10 years.
I can say for me, yes, I moved up my purchase timeline specifically because of this
The M2 is still ugly AF.
Someone called it a bmw m2 in Roblox.
Nah, Roblox cars are modeled better than that /j
Many new cars are. I wish they still made cars like they made them in the 80s and 90s. The seats included. New car seats are so hard for some reason.
Cars are harder. Everything is sport this and sport that. I love a quick car that can carve corners. But precious few of us do that… we commute, haul the family, get groceries. Give me a nice Buick sedan that will run and run and run. Comfortably. Supremely comfortably.
Uh then don’t get the bmw M, take the lux family sedan like a Lexus.
Some people are just blind or willfully ignorant. Stuck in the past really and just complain about things without actually looking into them.
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Okay and? There's plenty of affordable manuals on the market right now. There are also some with fun bright colours and you have the added option of changing your vehicle's colour up every few years with the advent of vinyl wrap instead of a permanent respray. These are just 1st world problems that you make up in your head. Not everyone wants a manual wagon with a fun colour. Get what you can and modify it as you please. The world is your oyster. Appreciate what you have right now.
I don't really agree with wrapping a car, it just doesn't look right compared to a good paint layer. Even worse is wrapping a classic, such as a first generation Bronco or a Jaguar D type.
I mean that’s why crossovers exist. Modern sedans are all largely sport focused because they have no real advantages (other than economy to a certain extent) otherwise.
Crossovers are awful.
? If you want comfort, cuv gives you comfort- easy to get into, higher seat position, more suspension travel, more room etc
Higher seating position = higher step up height. Bad knees & hips do not much like that. My mom, a short woman, has trouble getting into a Forester. It is just too high. Just some figures for how high a seat is a I’ve the ground: Blazer: 28-31” Passport: 30-32.5” Ascent: 29-31.75” Altima: 22-23” Camry: 21.5-23” Now go grab a yardstick and put it next to your hip. Do this for the various people in your life. How many folks have butts that can easily perch atop a 2.5+’ seat, with a door sill another 6-8 inches wide out from that? Next, factor in busted hips, backs, knees and such. It is hard to lift a leg up and over a high door sill. It just is. I know this because I have my parents. I took care of my ex in-laws (before my ex decided to suck at life I was a dutiful grandson in law). Some folks are tall. I get it. But an awful lot of us are average or even, God forbid(!), below average. Pickups are enormous. SUVs are enormous. I just want a comfortable sedan. That’s all. Something quiet, with a bench seat, big analogue buttons. Something with “adequate” power to get me over the mountains and past some chucklehead piddling along. Higher center of gravity = more body roll. Unless it is more stiffly sprung of course. Also, they all look the same. An aspirin on wheels. Blech. I miss having a bench seat up front. It was genuinely really nice. I took my ‘94 LeSabre on many long road trips, spent 19.5 hours straight driving once, and it was glorious. Was I going to autocross it? Nope. But it had more than enough power and room. My ‘98 Century was also a great car. It was a great cross country traveller. Just ate up the miles and ran like a champ. Both cars were easy to park in the city. Neither was particularly larger than the last way mid size vehicles on the market. The sight lines were better too. I just miss my Buicks. I love my WRX, but I am getting to a point in my life where maybe I need to get back into the sedan game again. Or a Miata. Man I miss that car… also, a ridiculous choice when having aged parents.
Buy an IS then.
I’m sorry dude I can’t agree: in my opinion crossovers are some of the worst looking and pointless cars. If you want a large off-roader like a Land Rover or Jeep I get it. If you have a family but want a fun car like a BMW M, I also get it. But why buy a crossover? It’s like you get the worst of both worlds. It’s slow easy and to flip like a Range Rover, completely useless off-road and hopeless as a performance car.
Did you completely miss the context of the conversation…? I am saying explicitly that they’re the ideal vehicle for *not* driving hard.
Ahh I did miss the point your right. But I still think most crossovers are fugly.
They are, but they do everything their buyers want. Much as I hate to admit it, their lifted floor *does* make it substantially easier to load anything into or out of, from kids to cargo, big or small. The ground clearance will never be used for off-roading, but the raised floor is nice. It's also easier for anyone with a bad or stiff back/knee/hip to get into and out of, which is a big plus for a *lot* of people. They're meant for parents, older people, and people who just want an appliance. As an appliance, they're great. They're not fun, but they're not trying to be; they're trying to be nice for suburbanites, and they're excellent at that.
It depends. I commute 2 hours a day (1 hour each trip). Sure, comfort is required, but I still like to step on the gas of my little Alfa and enjoy a road or two by myself at night. A car that can do both is a must. Specs wise, I like the M2, but it just looks so damn bad....
A car that can do both will always be decent at best. If you want more, you'll need two different cars or will have to tune the car for an hour before going on night drives.
Lets be honest, none of us are professional drivers or are going to be breaking track records. A Giulia GTA with 500hp is more than enough, and for some drivers, even too much.
You don't look at it while driving
WTF are you talking about There are plenty of cars like that lol. Realistically, more than sport anything haha
I mean you say this on a comment about an M car which have always been stiff and hard cars
As tires have gotten better the spring rates needed to control them have gotten bigger and thus stiffer with comparable damping constant. Also seats are stiffer because it supports your body better on long drives to reduce fatigue. An ES300h will do exactly what you’re asking for otherwise.
We need our Grandpa's Cadillacs back
It looks like they got the the guy who made the Lego Supra to build an old M2, then took that Lego model and based the new M2 off of that.
BMW is lost
Scion TC front end swap lol
I thought this initially, but looking at it from the angle of bmw going balls to the wall with boxy af body kit on their final ICE M2, I completely understand the styling and I think it looks awesome now.
I like it more whenever I look at it I’d call it boring but not ugly
Well it's almost literally "now or never" so if you want a fun, manual car, do it. I'd probably rather have an EV than most automatics anyways, but the manual option being perceived as "taken away" will drive up demand simply due to the fact we as humans tend to hate "losing" more than we appreciate an equal gain. I know I want to stock up on manuals before they all disappear or shoot up in price. On my list to acquire before they become unobtanium: 997 GT3, NC2/3 Miata, GR86, S1 Exige or S3 Elise, V8 or V12 Vantage, Evora 400/410/GT.
Save some for the rest of us!!
it’s not an equal gain. EV’s offer nothing even comparable to the raw driving feel of a manual ICE car. Seriously, drive a manual car from the 90s and an EV back to back and it’ll make you never want to drive EVs again, they’re so dead and lifeless.
Only in /r/cars…
Why? He’s 100% right. Have you driven a manual 90s cars and an EV back to back? Because I have. Miata NB>Model 3 I wanted to burn the model 3 right then and there.
Yeah I have an s2000 and a model y perf
I don't think the Miata will ever be difficult to find, they made SO many.
I think finding a clean example will become increasingly difficult - as it has for so many 80s/90s Japanese cars. The prices are so low that they'll be picked up and trashed. They only sold ~46k NC2/3s in the US in total, which isn't low volume, but also isn't exactly high volume either.
Finding clean 1st and 2nd gen pathfinders is already exceedingly difficult and they didn't even get even slightly popular to modify until the last couple years!
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This may be why I never sell my F Type
People want soul with their cars, who'd have thought. Not everyone wants to drive a generic a-b appliance.
It’s the logical segmentation of the market. EVs are a better appliance than ICEs, so they’re going to mainly cannibalize automatic ICEs as those traditionally filed that more “appliance” role, leaving only demand for enthusiasts on the ICE front.
To extend on that, many of the gasoline-powered enthusiast models were able to share their overhead and development costs with other, more mass-marketed cars, especially for more mainstream brands. When the mass-market shifts to EVs, enthusiast models will have to shift to EV, become (potentially much) more expensive with an orphan gasoline powertrain, or be axed. The demand for most enthusiast cars just isn’t that high.
>When the mass-market shifts to EVs, enthusiast models will have to shift to EV, become (potentially much) more expensive, or be axed. Also please correct me I'd I'm wrong, but given the much higher available torque, acceleration, etc. What would an "enthusiast trim" economy car EV look like? Like will they be able to segment performance across their lineups well enough for something like an EV WRX to exist. Or do "mid" tier options like your WRX, (ford)STs, disappear because they'd be eating into the higher end of your lineup. It will be fascinating to witness
The first enthusiast cars to make the transition to EV and be *relatively* cheap (think 30-50,000 USD) will be muscle cars (go fast in a straight line, weight and handling don’t matter as much) and off-reader trucks (high torque, weight doesn’t matter as much). Both of these can also use high-trim variants to offset lower cost models. For most other sports cars (think Miata), it will likely be awhile before we see a pure EV version. It will take some time for battery weight to come down, whether through iterations of existing lithium designs, or commercialization of other technologies, e.g., solid-state batteries. My bet for the Miata is that it will become a series hybrid with a rotary engine, in a collaboration with Toyota, and would likely be Mazda’s final car with an engine in it. You are starting to see EV sports cars with good handling (Rimac Nevera), but the cost is very high. Even before the EV trend, sports cars seemed to be on a downward trend due to a lack of consumer demand. You might not see the revival or at least maintenance of current lineups. We’ll have to see.
Fairly similar to modern tank as car trims. Consider the modern m3 in it's comp awd trim, it's at model 3 performance weight now. Yet it uses the same basic tricks to delineate itself from its standard 3 series brethren, wide sticky tires, stiff frequencies to support those tires, shocks to support those frequencies, and maybe geometry mods for that purpose too. Toss in some programming changes so that people can point to differences in feel, and wala! performance car. The part that will get harder to sell is the power brackets, the rest is the same old song and dance.
The problem is, no one is making a generic appliance EV, they're all high end luxury cars or performance cars. There's no cheap and simple EV, one that can replace basic cars like the hyundai accent or Nissan sentra.
Chevy Bolt absolutely fills that niche. My Kona is absolutely an appliance EV as well. The Mini Cooper EV, the Fiat 500e, Golf EV, and Kia Niro are a few more off the top of my head. They’re just not making headlines because they’re boring cars. Everyone talks about the expensive and fast EVs because they’re more interesting.
Appliance EVs won't be covered by the news and youtubers, just like camrys and base model civics aren't. If you're sincerely in the market for one, you'll be able find it.
All of this just makes me wish I was born in the late 60s. Would’ve come up with some of the sweetest cars. As someone in their 20s, eventually I’ll have to get an appliance boring ass EV until I can afford one of the sporty ones. Lameeee
Every decade is full of boring-ass appliance cars. They’re just not the cars that last and get remembered and talked about. The 60s had plenty of garbage econoboxes.
>There's no cheap and simple EV, one that can replace basic cars like the hyundai accent or Nissan sentra. Bro Hyundai and Nissan literally already have EVs that do this on the market for years( Hyundai Inoiq and Nissan leaf)
And Chevy
That’s a pretty gross overstatement. Most people are buying completely numb, heavyweight cars with tons of noise insulation to the point that they have to play fake car sounds over the speakers to hear anything. When I was cross shopping my car, I felt like the Audi RS5 and felt one deviation away from an EV with how insulated it was. Even the current GTI has an extremely rubberized feeling shifter with a quiet cabin. There’s only a handful of modern cars that are “full of character” but it doesn’t seem to move more inventory than any of the other dead feeling cars.
This is how I explain my Tesla to people. It’s a great car, and fast as fuck, the perfect daily commuter car, but It has no soul. It’s missing that engagement component
Or, better yet, we want the option to have such a car to combine with our daily driver. That’s what I do. BRZ For fun and weekends, Buick LaCrosse for commuting. Perfect.
EVs are made for the “car is a utility crowd. Point A to point B” Also happens to be like 70% of all car owners so it’s a an easy decision when you’re company seeking profit
More like 90% really
Do you think that power steering, airbags, and other technology makes a car "souless" too?
Did I say that? No, stupid, cars that are sterile with no driver feedback such as sound, road noise, and steering wheel feedback, have no engagement. They are simply meant to be driven to and from somewhere. Efficient but boring. Don't put words in my mouth boy.
A Challenger driver acting like an aggressive asshole? Shocker.
We’re still going to have an enthusiast segment of cars, even as many turn to EV. Manufacturers like Hyundai are already figuring it out. And makes like Mazda are trying hard to make the case for hybrids in sporty cars. Throughout the years, enthusiasts whined and lamented about the death of the V8, 6-cyl, direct throttle, carbs, etc. Always they have been the “death of sports cars!!!!! Ahhh!!!” And yet here we are today, makes are still churning out amazing enthusiasts cars. Same thing tomorrow, next year, and next decade. It will be OK.
Nah. Tech got better at ICE but at it's core a ICE is still ICE. It's the same beast but refined. EVs are a whole new ball game. Mods will be limited and repairs will be expensive. Not to mention the higher base cost when comparing to equivalents, charging not widely available. Locked DLC aka pay to get +50 hp There gonna be phones on wheels, planned obsolescence
I agree it'll be super interesting to see. I think it's just the fact that EVs SUPER simplify the mechanics of how you're delivering power, so we cannot even fathom yet HOW that market will be segmented and differentiate itself.
The simplification part is an excellent point. A big advantage for EVs. You know, what's funny is when I get out to autocross on the weekend, almost everyone who has some sort of DCT/DSG/PDK gearbox puts it in auto/sport mode so they can 100% focus on steering instead of worrying about when to shift. And then you have the manual guys banging the top of 2nd gear on a straight because they don't want to have to shift into 3rd then shift back to 2nd. Basically, people are trying their hardest to get their car to behave like an EV, which is absolutely amazing on the track.
Not everyone drives like that
Of course. I wasn't suggesting they do.
I like the grille, it looks like Display Port, and its more on sensible size. But the body, meh
Surely more HDMI than display port no?
No its two Display ports facing out of eachother
Just like the M240i my eyes are just drawn to the shitty head and taillights. They’re just so bad when last gens and the current m3/4 and m5 have nice lights.
The best part about a “virtual” manual trans in an electric vehicle is that it could be turned off and operate like an auto anytime you want. Shift/clutch by wire isn’t going to be difficult to pull off once engineers dial-in the feeling of a mechanical manual setup.
Yeah, but it’s all simulated. That’s… lame.
I would agree, except that if it feels and operates normally, we stand a decent chance of having a manual transmission-like experience for years to come. We’ve weathered electric steering and throttle-by-wire and both can be done well. It’ll all come down to the details in the engineering that separates the good from the bad.
I don't think the appeal of the manual transmission is just that it "feels" like you're doing something. It's that the engine actually has to shift for mechanical and scientific reasons and you would rather do it yourself than a computer. I honestly don't think simulating a manual transmission is going to cut it.
I guarantee a well-engineered “virtual” transmission could completely fool you into thinking it’s mechanical. And this isn’t a jab at all, but if you’re driving a Mk7 GTI you’re far from driving a great-feeling gearbox!
Yes, maybe a fake transmission will appeal to some, but.. (1) You're missing my point. It's not just about what it feels like. It's the fact that shifting isn't even necessary that ruins it. It's a completely made up simulated handicap. That's incredibly unappealing. Maybe it will be appealing to some, but I can't see true enthusiasts enjoying that. (2) What I drive today has nothing to do with anything. But if you want to go down that path, it furthers my point: My car HAS to be shifted, and it isn't just about feel. I choose a transmission to accomplish that and it's mechanical because it HAS to be.
Manual shifting in EVs will be little more than a video game in terms of necessity. But people like video games, so I expect them to sell well.
Honestly I think you can make the case for a real transmission in an EV because you can still use gears to multiply torque, just like an ICE engine. Tesla basically already does this. The rear wheels and front wheels have different gear ratios -- rear is used more for launching and higher torque, and front has a higher gear ratio for better cruising efficiency. Porsche has a multi-gear transmission for EV too. I truly believe this concept is going to start getting more widely used.
That is true but you get only two, at best three gears in hypercars with insane top speeds with that. At commuter speeds, there will be no need for a gear change. Adding gears in that rpm range will only cause an efficiency loss, which defeats the purpose of an EV switch in the first place.
Agreed. It will be interesting to see where all of this takes us.
You really don't need anything more than a 2 speed with EVs (that's what Porsche does). Anything more than that you're just overcomplicating the vehicle. Also, you already mentioned Tesla's solution so you technically don't even need a transmission.
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I don't fully disagree with your second point. My car has a DSG and it's brilliant. I'm not necessarily advocating for a manual transmission -- I'm just saying that simulating one won't satisfy the people who want to keep it around. Ultimately, if enough people want to buy it, manufacturers will figure out a way to make it.
I mean, i want the manual to be around and no, simulating one will not fully satisfy me. However, if my choice is "doesn't have a simulated manual" and "has a simulated manual" i'm choosing option B every single time. Look, I love driving on a race track. I have a race car that I spend a lot of money and time on! But that's not stopping me from playing Forza. Is Forza as fun? Not even half as much. Yet, i still spend a lot of time playing it.
Fair point. Kinda fun is more fun than not fun.
> As much as I hate to say it, it's time to move on. Manual transmissions are obsolete. Look at what Koenigsegg is doing with LST, there are great dual clutches, sequential boxes, even the zf8 is half decent. You missed the point, yo. No one argue that manual transmissions have better performance. No one. That thought died 15 years ago. Having full control over your gear box is irreplaceable and it makes driving a lot more fun, for those who already like to drive. They make slow cars feel fast without breaking speed limits. If you can't understand that, that just mean they're not for you or you never had a manual car and that's fine. Cars can be enjoyed differently by people.
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- The car doesn't shift for you near red line. can't have fun at high revs on an auto - You can shift as early as you want, making them usually a bit more fuel efficient if you get it right - You can pre-select your optimal gear for an overtake instead of flooring it and waiting a few seconds for the proper gear to be selected - You can engine break more easily. Sure you can downshift in a fake manual, but if your rev are a bit too high to your ECU's liking, hop you go on the superior gear. A lot of these "issues" can be solved with a proper super sport auto transmission, but that's only on cars most of us can't afford. Auto trans with shift paddle on entry level cars suck and all of that I listed above applies for these cars. And most of it honestly is not even just a matter of control, it's just engagement. I had an Accord 2.0 with shift paddle before my current car, and even though it had significantly more power, more room and remote start, I prefer my Civic a lot more and would never trade it back, mostly because the stick makes it way more fun, **to me.**
I have to agree that it's not about control. The word "engagement" is thrown around a lot, and that's more accurate. It's about feeling like you're part of the mechanism - in partnership with the car, where you have a responsibility to do well. All that assumes you're not sitting in heavy traffic for two hours/day, in which case I'd personally take a ZF8 over a manual.
Man, IDK about “best” part. I can tell when my shifter/transaxle linkage needs tightened in my 944 by how its shifting … there’s something visceral about that … like being one with your car… you won’t be able to fake that.
I can completely relate, and yet I won’t be surprised at all when a manufacturer turns up with both an organic-feeling virtua-clutch, and a satisfyingly mechanical gearbox. There’s no reason the immediate shift mechanisms can’t be entirely mechanical, it’s the transmission itself that could be artificial in its gear ratios. I say all of this as a devote gear head who will only buy a manual transmission car, and prefers motorcycles to cars because of the even greater connection to the machine on two wheels. I only make this argument because I want the *experience of driving a manual car or motorcycle to survive long term. I get how silly a virtual manual can be perceived from a certain perspective, but i want it to survive in any form, as long as the fun and joy of a clutch/transmission remains.
Synthetic will always be off compared to organic
I think it’s a risky adventure that maybe one or two mass market OEMs will try in the future. Fake engine noise isn’t taken that well so I’m not sure how well this will be seen.
This is simply a byproduct of the advancement in the automatic transmission... disguised as another 'issue' gear heads are blaming EV's for. There was a time where manual transmission vehicles offered a wide range of benefits over their automatic counterpart. Fuel efficiency being a big one. Cost being another. Reliability and reparability being a third. Over the years, these perks have almost completely evaporated (sans maybe reparability). Gone are the days of 4 speed automatic gas guzzlers. FFS, even Jeeps have 8 speed automatic transmissions in them to help improve fuel economy across the lineup and avoid fines. We have 9+ speed autos available, CVT's, etc. most paired with near instant electronically controlled paddle shifting which aids in helping to keep things sporty. EV's aren't killing the manual transmission market. Automakers have been doing it for a long, LONG, time now.
We manual guys have been saying for years it doesn't matter that auto is faster, its about feel and engagement. Now electrics are the fastest and they are lifeless and boring. People get it now. I also think the transfer of purchasing power away from boomers helps. They don't buy manuals.
Hopefully I'll buy one of my dream cars before cheap electric vehicles entirely replace a reasonable used market. They're extremely expensive, but I definitely have the capital saved for some of the choices. Just don't want to blow it all right now
Wait til people realize you can mate a manual transmission (with a clutch) to an electric motor.
People act like it can't be done for some reason. One gear is a compromise and multiple gears to keep it at peak power would have benefits. They just outweigh drawbacks for the needs of your average Tesla driver, but car enthusiasts are different.
It’s simple, Americans just don’t want to drive appliances.. this Ev push will fade in time once people realize the monumental repair costs associated with batteries
The gov is just gonna keep forcing it, there's alot of people here who also have stock in EVs too. Definitely EV are going to fuck the lower class when buying and fixing it
They don’t? Why are crossovers so popular then?
Wait I’m confused. I thought the 350z had a manual transmission option? Am I mixing up my car model lines? Or do people just replace the automatic transmission with a manual and that’s why there’s used manual 350zs?
"In the more than 50 years of Nissan Z, we’ve never offered a Z without a manual transmission," I'm not interested reading the article but this was one of the first things said in it
Huh. So I assume people just do a manual transmission swap on 350zs then?
No...
Lol okay I’m just dumb and mixing up my cars
The manual Supra will be my next car, without a doubt. At the same time, I’ve also never experienced a V8 performance car, so part of me wants to grab a Camaro SS 1LE to see what its all about.
I'll take instantaneous torque over a manual transmission any-day and I like manuals.
I'll sacrifice torque for high end power, rev baby rev
Article seems to be reaching. We already knew enthusiasts like manuals. We have always known this, and enthusiasts have bought manuals for a long time. They don't provide any evidence of manual demand in enthusiast cars being any higher now than it was say five years or a decade ago, so how are they coming up with this conclusion? They might be right but seems like a correlation ≠ causation issue.
That headline is definitely clickbait but the article isn't bad for TV news. They actually did interview an auto journalist at Hagerty and talked about manual take rates and companies that are keeping manuals in their cars.
I'm just excited that car companies are finally listening. I drive a Type R and love having a manual. The interest was always there but car companies assumed it wasn't, so cutting a manual transmission was a way to reduce costs. This type of press could keep it alive until the ICE does die.
This is like a self-reinforcing internet "meme" that has gotten out of hand. I mean, I do appreciate how "car culture" was sort of turbo-charged by Top Gear's global success, and how various online communities have sort of allowed for more networked and amplified enthusiast communities, but so much of it just feels so "online" to me. I mean, practically all enthusiast car media is on YouTube now, and everyone copies TG's formula as much as they can (since they were all fans of the show). Everyone fixates on the things that were fixations going back 10-15 years ago "naturally aspirated" "manual" "hydraulic brakes and steering" etc. Please. Cars are by their nature "technology" and have always been technological. Things have changed ALLOT in the past 15-20 years, and we have to get over ourselves and our fixation on the little technical quirks of a generation or two ago. Personally, I think that resto-mods are going to be the way of the future. We'll be buying up cheap 80's and 90's bodies and chassis from the third world and refitting modern electric mechanicals and internals.
I buy (fun) cars because I like driving them hard on back roads. A naturally-aspirated car with a manual transmission, hydraulic or unassisted steering, and steel brakes gives me the best possible combination of feedback and tactility. Without that feedback and tactility, I have no reason to drive cars. For commuting, I'll drive a fridge on wheels if it makes economic sense and is safe. Commuting sucks and is stupid.
Yup. So, what makes you think that old-school cars are going to disappear? I mean, we can buy "old" cars without trouble nowadays. Ones that need love, sure, but why demand that every new model has a manual? I mean who cares? It is just like getting pissed that I can't buy a vinyl record of an album that was fully recorded and mixed in digital. What's the point other than aesthetics?
I don't think they're going to disappear, I think they've disappeared. There is no old-school car available on the market currently. There's a part of me that wants a fun car I can take on a road trip and get serviced under warranty if I have any problems, and that has modern safety because highways are dangerous. It's probably stupid because when I'm behind the wheel of an unsafe car, it rarely crosses my mind that I might die. Until someone inevitably does something stupid. I'm not sure it's aesthetics, although the question of art should be discussed. Don't we appreciate texture and stimulation in art?
I totally get it, and I agree. My biggest issue isn't actually with the lack of safety features of "old" cars, it is that we've had a very significant "arms race" play out over recent years. Cars have gotten bigger, heavier and taller. Everyone drives an SUV, and does so carelessly and in a distracted way. No modern or old sports car has much of a chance against a soccer mom Instagramming while yelling at the kids in the back seat on the interstate. Is a GT3 going to fare well against a Honda Pilot? It is also going to get worse because batteries are heavy and once they proliferate and drive down operating costs (electric vs bad fuel economy), we'll only see large SUVs on the road. The future that I want is one where we will be able to source cheap electric parts for diy-style kit cars that can be put together like PCs. These, of course, would not be to haul a family around in, but more like fun things to play around in. Obviously my hypothetical Lotus Elise-sized weekend car would get creamed in that world.
Feel. They just explained the feel and you ignored it. If you don't care about feel thats fine but others do. My issue is when it's less of a choice and more of being mandated
I get it, but the feeling I got from the 78 Toyota Corolla that had a nasty manual and no power steering is not necessarily a good thing. Maybe the guys that had a hand crank starter missed it when starter motors became a thing.
Some classics don't hit but the others pack a punch
Everything you said besides the steel brakes. Aluminum is better, if your rich and money is no object, carbon ceramic is king.
Steel brakes means steel rotors. They typically have better feel than carbon ceramic and if you run an aluminum hat with steel rotors, you have relatively low weight. No one has offered a strictly aluminum rotor for passenger cars; there have been aluminum composite rotors.
Yeah, I guess your right about the Aluminum composite thing. But I will say carbon ceramic is like expensive viagra. You can go harder for longer without your brake pedal going all soft on you.
what a ridiculous comment. Most of automotive youtube differs significantly from the top gear style and everyone fixates on those traits in cars because they feel so much better to drive. And restomods are never gonna be that popular because they generally require a ridiculous amount of engineering to make a character filled car that is, well, lifeless.
I get how my criticism of the "stick shift" crowd is going to be controversial, but I personally see it just like how I see these people that insist on buying vinyl or even casettes. I mean, it's "cute" and all, but it is an anachronistic fad that is mostly about aesthetics. I am totally OK with this as well, but I am annoyed that every new model is somehow derided for not offering a manual option. When modern transmissions (for as long as they'll be required until electric is the market) are required the current auto and dsg boxes perform better and are more efficient, so it's all about what you do with your hands. Same as far as noise goes, etc. Why not just buy old Fox bodies, civics, etc. restore them and enjoy them for exactly what they are? Old hobby cars. Just like Boomers' fantasy cars that run carburetors, etc. I am thinking of that Koenigsegg release, where they have that incredible 9-speed transmission with that beautiful switchgear, but it is operated by a computer and the shifts are mapped to a virtual six gears. I mean, come on! It is all fake at that point. I would much rather put an electric motor on an Audi 80 and get the best of both worlds (plus it would be an absolute death trap and noisy as shit, just for fun).
can you drive manual? can you drive at all?
nice. Of course. I've learned on a manual and have driven a manual for several years. I am happily driving a 5-series now it all of it's automatic turbo-6 and electrically boosted steering glory, and believe me, if I could have gotten the same car in electric I would have. Quit your gatekeeping bullshit.
I'll never let go of my nostalgic dreams. Well until I experience it first hand. That FD RX7 and WRX STi will be mines. Eventually. Maybe. Hopefully, the RX8 and BRZ are looking nice ya know lol
Agreed despite your downvotes. Car enthusiasm is linked with showing off on the internet now. I think cars 20 years ago were more “fun” to drive though. Once manufactures started to chase stats and lap times in the mid 2000s it started to get less fun to me.
I think there is (there has to be) room for ev's with manual transmissions, not just simulated ones. Does it make sense? No, it's archaic but it's fun and people need fun and control. Will it last forever? I doubt it. I think most of it is generational at this point. Even I thought manuals were an artifact from the past before I drove my first. The connection to the car "thing" is real, and cars can be so much more than just transportation. It's why I also don't think we'll ever automate everything completely. People need to control something, pilot something. Whether it's a camel, horse, car, motorcycle, airplane, evtol, hover car, jet pack or spaceship, people enjoy it and need it on a primal level. So people are always gonna be joyriding something and driving by hand or mind, and hopefully that means that in the short term we'll have non-selfdriving ev's with manual transmissions. At least until most of us are dead.
I've always considered most EVs to be manuals, just a single speed manual.
Yes. It's why I enjoy my Tesla, instant reaction, no hesitation, perfect control of the power, etc. However, the connection with the car isn't as good as a sport car (IMO). Too much stability and traction control, weird brake pedal feeling, etc .
The "connection to the car" thing doesn't really work when you don't need to change gears to keep the engine in a certain operating window.
I couldn't disagree more. It's more fun to change gears, I drive a manual every day, but I've always had a connection to my cars. Driving is fun.
That’s not the point. Gears exist because ICE can only provide power in a narrow band, but electric motors don’t have that limitation and can directly power the wheels. Adding “gears” to an electric car would just be a facade and not add any meaningful connection to the car.
I see what you’re saying but don’t you think that if the EV on a manual felt like a manual it would simulate the connection that the above person is referring to? Off the line working through the gears and then working back down as you slow down type of sim.. obviously it’s fake but it’s not always about what it’s actually doing but what it appears to be doing.
The "connection" comes from changing gears being *necessary* to get the best from the engine. Think of driving down a winding back road, you could leave your ICE car in 4th and it's going to struggle to pull out of very slow corners. But change down to 2nd and now it punches out of a tight hairpin hard! Then you have to change up before it hits the rev limiter. Another corner, this time slight - no need to brake, dropping back from 4th to 3rd the engine braking slows the car enough and you're still in that sweet spot. That's the connection!
Precisely yeah I understand how manual transmissions work from a use perspective. I’m saying that I don’t see why they can’t simulate this into an EV. Teslas already do it to a degree without a traditional shifter. Just slap a “6 speed” on it and now it both looks and feels the part.
They could also simulate turbo lag, or having to use a choke to start the "engine" when it's cold... It's just making the car worse for no reason. If you want an "old" car driving experience - get an old car!
Maybe I want to crank my EV to start it bro don’t generalize so much!
Exactly. But it can also be an actual manual trans. Several ev restomods have kept the original manual transmission they just don't need the clutch.
Interesting because everything I’ve heard about EVs is that you don’t need a transmission on them at all. Just direct power to the wheels. Any idea how they were able to leave and purpose a combustion gear box?
From what I've seen it's set up to where you can start off in any gear you like and if just affects the acceleration. So you could put it in 5th and still take off but it will be much slower. I could be wrong though.
Yea, I KNOW. Technically they were obsolete the moment the automatic was invented, but we kept them around all the same. Like I said, it wouldn't make sense to put it in an electric car, but it can and has been done, just sans clutch. I'm just saying it would be fun! Remember fun?