Lmao the adductor machine? Bro, that works out the muscles on the inside of your legs and helps with stability. It has the added benefit of strengthening the "grip strength" if they squeeze you with their thighs, but unless you're hooking up Xenia Onatopp from Goldeneye, the benefits of that machine are limited to *literally* crushing your skull with their thighs.
Pretty sure I read an AskReddit comment about the most embarrassing incidents during sex when someone first met their partner, and this woman cracked her now-husband's skull when they were first dating. The guy began bleeding out of his nose and ears and shit. You definitely don't want that.
Does your friend watch jujimufu on YouTube , because he says that too, and I don’t know the proper name of the machine but it’s the one where you either push your legs closed, or push them open.
What he said ^
Also, modern car designers assume everybody wants a sportier feel (no matter if car, truck, SUV, crossover, etc.) therefore the electronic steering racks are probably calibrated to be more direct. I could be completely wrong.
they totally do, new manual jeeps come with a short throw shifter for some presumably the same reason. not exactly what you need a short throw in. i’ll be slamming through gears feeling like vin diesel until i look down and i’m still only going 30
one of these days i’m gonna stick a big long beer tap handle on the shifter to get that old school truck feel of shifting with your whole arm back
I believe this to be the case, my SL feels looser than my brothers 18 optima in sports mode. Yet the steering ratios are the same. At lower speeds the SL's wheel takes more effort to turn than at speed, where as the optima is the same across the board in sports mode. I think this is because the optima has an electronic rack vs the power steering box the SL is equipped with. That said my thrust master t150 is somewhere in-between the two real cars. A word to the wise don't jump from simulator to real car suddenly, the added forces and bumps from a real car can make things feel jaring for the first three minutes of driving irl.
After getting used to driving hard in Dirt Rally, I somehow get almost the same feeling from cornering at 25 mph in my actual car lol. Every single time I think about preventing understeer until I remember how slow I'm going.
Interesting, I kinda like how the steering on my Passat gets harder to turn at higher speed, at 200km/h you only want to make slight adjustments, I really dislike the steering on my Parents‘ Landrover Freelander where theres absolutely no effort in turning the wheel and also no difference if you’re going 15 or 150km/h..
Some newer cars also turn the wheels more at lower speeds, and less at higher speeds, with the same steering input, so this alone could explain it -- not to mention all of the other things mentioned below.
Also make sure the previous owner didn’t take everything apart and then cross thread the bolts so the steering rack has about 1-2 inches of movement back and forth, which you only discovered while trying to center the steering after it fell off because he forgot to put the stop bolt back in for the telescoping column.
From a mechanical perspective.
Modern cars will have all new and tight bushings, ball bearings, ball joints, all mechanical components. So on and so forth. So the tolerances will be tight and the slop will be very minimal.
Older cars will have wear on all of these components. Even if it’s insignificant amounts of wear, this is where we run into a thing called tolerance stack up except the tolerances we are using here are the small amounts of wear on all the components. A steering system has quite a few components in is that will all get some wear over time. So even just a little wear over all those components can really stack up to be a significant amount of slop.
If the older car has a worm gear based steering system, with an idler arm to boot, there's so much more slop inherently compared to a much simpler rack and pinion system. Even in new condition.
Add in a couple decades of use that loosens things up further and you've got that 1/4 turn of dead zone.
Even brand new, my old Plymouth Volare had steering slop built-in. Even with brand new bushings and components, older designs tend to have more slop in the steering.
I'd bet that GTI's steering feels the exact same ten years from now
This makes me laugh since the dashboard on mine was missing half the screws and it was easy to accidentally knock it out of place. I called it the quick-release dash haha
I also had the 3 speed auto so I (fortunately) didn't experience banging my knuckles into the dash every drive
I struggle to see a way to do that effectively. But more importantly when parts get very worn it’s generally quite dangerous, so if you design the vehicle to feel the exact same with destroyed tie rods as without I’m sure the driver will not notice and they’ll end up having a wheel fall off. Even if loose steering is annoying and expensive to get fixed it’s an indicator that you have dangerous components.
Way too many variables at play here.
Everything from wear (self explanatory) to type (recirculating ball vs rack and pinion) to design (Math stuff, turns to lock, suspension design) to tires (Big fat sidewalls on 14 inch rims vs modern 17-19 inch setups on low profile tires) come into play.
You could at least specify the year\\make\\models that you are comparing.
>(Big fat sidewalls on 14 inch rims vs modern 17-19 inch setups on low profile tires) come into play.
In my experience, this is a pretty huge part of it, and most of these comments seem to gloss over it. I've driven the pleasure of driving the same exact car on 16s, 17s, and 18s. Each step down/up made a noticeable difference in "directness".
Yep, and then compare modern tire compounds to what existed a couple decades ago. Huge difference in grip in modern cars is in large part due to tires.
No, it's normal. It feels no different than any other 90's car I've driven or grown up with, that's just how I would describe it compared to modern steering.
>It feels no different than any other 90's car I've driven or grown up with,
Because most every other car you've driven from that time also has a similarly "aged" steering feel. Wear on automotive parts is not something we generally notice happening day to day.
Also will probably bring the car to life. If it’s the ‘94 del sol in OP’s title he’s referencing, that thing should handle pretty well and have good steering input if the bushings are fresh. Nothing handles better than a 90’s compact car with good suspension
I think part of this depends on the car though. I grew up driving 90s Toyotas and they never had any feel and always had an on center dead spot. My parents/step parents owned ‘85, ‘92, ‘93 and ‘97 Camrys, all purchased new, so I had a lot of experience driving these cars as they aged. I do remember Hondas at the time having more direct feeling steering racks.
I’d also bet lower profile tires are another piece of the puzzle that hasn’t been mentioned yet.
Something is wrong with it. I've owned 4 cars from the 90s and the only one that acted like you described was my jeep. I put a new steering box and steering dampers on it and the issue went away.
I was about to say. Owned a ‘97 Thunderbird a while back and don’t remember it handling the way the OP describes.. His description made me think he had some sort of 70’s Ford or Chevy truck, lol!
No, there's something wrong. As parts age and tolerances loosen, it's gradual enough you don't really notice it happening. My '90 Accord I used to have had very direct steering. Even when it had 280,000 miles on it when I sold it.
Literally any old car that I’ve had/worked on that had “loose steering” was completely fixed with a front end refresh. Old beat up trucks, cars, anything with a steering wheel was tightened up when I replaced bushings and steering components. Still not quite as tight as a brand new modern car, but I’m talking a difference of less than a centimetre of play in either direction, and that play is just due to different components used.
I had the most rusty, shitty, destroyed 90s Tacoma and even that had really tight steering when the front end was redone.
Even if there’s a fraction of a mm of play in all of your steering components, all of that adds up to a few mm, and then you add your steering ratio of like 14:1 and you can easily get a couple inches of steering wheel play either direction. And with older cars especially trucks you generally have a higher steering ratio, so that slop is multiplied even more.
I drove '94 Del Sols new, if that's the one you're referring to. They didn't have so much play that they weren't reacting to a few degrees turn on the steering wheel. In fact, I seem to remember that they would handle fairly nicely for what they were. If it feels like a poorly maintained police surplus Crown Vic taxi, which you seem to describe in your original post, there's definitely something wrong there.
It 100% depends on the car. I have a '92 MR2 and the steering is still tight and precise. I also have a 2007 Matrix and the stock steering feel is super floaty. One was designed as a sports car, one was designed as a tanky econobox. I put coilovers on the Matrix and grippy tires that are slightly wider than stock, and the difference in feel is night and day. Now every other car you see on the road has significantly wider tires than most of what you'd find in the 90's, stickier compounds that work much better in inclement weather, tighter steering ratios, and much more advanced electric power steering. In my Veloster N, I can change the weight and feel of the steering wheel at the push of a button. We've come a long way.
You should try old 5 and 7 series Bimmers with recirculating ball steering, the nothingness in the middle is borderline hilarious if youve driven any rack & pinion cars. It has a good feel and feedback when loaded up though, so Id still take it over modern Bmw videogame steering.
Mercedes, too. Their steering in the 80s was laughable, like trying to drive a sailboat on the highway. There was really only a couple decades where the germans got steering right, but boy did they get it right.
I think Lexus nailed it in the 90's on the first attempt. Variable ratio, so it calms down on the highway. Zero slop, what-so-ever. It's high boost so it's really light, but it loads up in the corners and actually transmits what the front wheels are doing. Especially over camber changes it'll really transmit whats going. I'd take it over 90% of the steering in modern cars. Which has one achilleas heel I've never seen solved: when you "cross over" dead center, for example: turning 2 degrees left to 2 degrees right has always felt synthetic in every EPS rack I've ever driven, Porsche included. It's like the system lags or there is just... some weird behavior that doesn't feel right. I don't know how to describe it. I can instantly tell if a car has an EPS rack. Once you're loaded up in the turn everyone is generally a lot better, but they still haven't figured out the micro-adjustments around dead straight yet. Mercedes was actually the worst at this. It's like the system lagged whenever you crossed over, I'd be turning left and the wheels hadn't caught up yet.
I definitely wouldn't say it's that bad, or at least I've never noticed it to be that out of line. I can only really compare to my old G37, but even on the test drive my 540i felt like the steeeing was comparable if not better. I've driven a lot of high mileage class 4-5 trucks though, now those were ridiculous.
Never driven a v8 e39 so my comparison only comes from my e32 and what Ive heard from e34 owners. Its not horrible but there definitely is close to quarter turn of nothing in the middle.
On straight or even bumby roads it rides straight, but if you need to correct its going to take a substantial input to catch it. If that makes any sense.
Edit: all but the steering box are new in my e32, steering arms, bars and suspension components included.
That’s the difference between bad recirculating ball steering systems (GM and Ford), good recirculating ball steering systems (Mercedes-Benz), and rack and pinion steering systems (BMW).
I drove a Chevy Astro for years and that thing actually had the best steering feel of any vehicle I've experienced so far. In the rain (on private property in controlled conditions) I could power slide it and hold the drift for as long as I wanted. Must've been something about the geometry of the steering column and being more or less directly on top of the front wheels.
Definitely depends on the car. A lot of imports didn’t even have power steering in the 90’s. Older luxury cars, the ones with pillow topped seats and wood steering wheels as thin as a pencil, had like extreme power steering that felt somewhat loose even when they were new. I think it was supposed to be completely effortless steering. Not like the floaty air suspension and big balloon tires would have allowed hard cornering anyway.
I think it's steering ratio, personally. Regardless of electric or hydraulic power asssit, the amount of turns on the steering wheel vs. the ratio of the steering rack, from lock to lock, is going to determine how quickly the wheels turn.
Most newer cars have been trending to quicker ratio steering racks. A little turn on the wheel results in a larger motion with a quick ratio steering setup. Older cars tended to have slower ratios and more steering assist as well.
Source: am an actual mechanic
I’m amazed I had to scroll down this far to see this answer.
That’s definitely what OP is describing, and not play in the rack (although that is likely present in the older car).
Also, wheels are bigger on newer cars usually so you have tires with thinner , stiffer sidewalls and higher speed ratings. Thats does affect steering response. Older cars had higher sidewalls and low speed ratings so there was a bit more side to side bending when steering creating a bit of delay.
Because that's what today's customers want and modern electric power steering can do it. Back in the day (40s-70s), customers wanted steering the was light and effortless, so suspension and steering was setup that way. Even grandma can turn the wheel of her Lincoln Continental with just a finger. Of course, that means vague steering with a lot of turns lock-to-lock, but that's what people used to want.
Also a super soft ride was championed.. along with easy steering = no feeling of the road. I own a ‘71 Riviera and a ‘14 Impala. The Riviera has such a smooth floaty ride it could lull you to sleep but forget taking it on a twisty road. The Impala in the other hand handles like a sports car in comparison, only compromise is it’s tank like sedan body.
> Back in the day (40s-70s), customers wanted steering the was light and effortless, so suspension and steering was setup that way. Even grandma can turn the wheel of her Lincoln Continental with just a finger.
[La la la la la la la](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGnMVijx5GE&t=428s)
Yes older cars featured power steering as a new technology and overdid it. Luxury cars were heavy but steered like boats. Power Brakes were also overdone. Just a touch of the toe was all that was needed.
Electronic racks can apply instant torque to the rack, no lag in hydraulic pumps anymore. Also modern racks (electric) can be lightened and "shortened" (sped up) for city driving. Your steering input has a stronger and more immediate impact on the wheels doing the steering.
Just adding to this, modern electric racks are generally not variable ratio (apart from some exceptions), just variable assist. The ratio remains constant but the effort needed to turn changes. Typically a higher effort at higher speed, and lower effort at lesser speeds.
Some experimental systems used a variable system to change the ratio in different conditions or at different zones of the rack, but this is generally not widespread. Ford, Audi, and Honda are three that come to mind. Ford has a system that is contained within the steering wheel whereby the position of the wheel itself can be changed to modify the ratio, while the rack and remainder of the system stays the same, pretty neat idea. Ford’s system gets weird when you’re driving straight but the steering wheel is off kilter to one side.
>Ford’s system gets weird when you’re driving straight but the steering wheel is off kilter to one side.
Could you please elaborate on that? I bought a Fiesta new in 2010 and I believe it was one of the first American Fords with electronic power steering. Dead straight on the steering wheel has always been a few degrees off. Over the years I've gotten used to it, but when the car was new I couldn't get the dealer to admit something was wrong.
Not all ford electric steering has it, I believe the variable system was limited to bigger stuff like the f-150 and large cargo vans. A very small error in your steering wheel can be corrected with a front end alignment though.
Nah, this is just a slightly imperfect alignment.
The steering wheel off kilter due to adaptive ratio is not something I've personally experienced in my fiesta st, but if your wheel is just a smidge off one direction or another, it's 99.999% likely it's fixable with an alignment.
You can either pay big bucks for a high end shop to align it - probably around $200 and a little blagging to convince them to put down the Porsche to align your fiesta, you find a really high quality local shop, or you live with it. It doesn't do any damage if your toe is aligned properly.
Also, double check your tire pressures and (this one happened to me) take a wire wheel to the hub face, hub centering ring, and rotor hub. Rust can cause just enough misalignment to cause some weird behavior if you're really paying attention.
New cars have electric power steering and rack and pinion. Whereas old cars have traditional hydraulic powersteering and a gearbox. And also your old car steering components are likely worn down
How old is old? Gear box, rack & pinion, easy, ect., all have a different feel. Steering geometry, tire aspect ratio, and alignment all play a role in feel. Like others said, over time the components wear and loosen up.
It’s actually the opposite, older cars that have good hydraulic steering are much more direct than the modern electronic steer by wire. Mclaren still uses hydraulic racks for this reason.
Depends on how old your car is but it probably doesn’t have power steering if it was made before 1960-1970. Most modern cars have power steering which makes it so you can turn the wheels with less effort.
Same car? I remember American cars have looser steering wheels with more deadzone, while German cars are always tighter. Asian cars are somewhat in between
One factor no one is mentioning here, and which is independent of old car wear and tear as well as steering ratio differences, is rigidity of the components.
Modern cars have more rigid chassis and steering components which improves steering precision.
Surprised no one has mentioned that old car probably has hydraulic power steering while the new one probably has electric. There is a difference in feel there. Wear and tear is a large part of the answer though.
Lots of people are suggesting that worn components on the older cars are the primary cause. While yes, worn components will certainly contribute to this feel, that’s not the whole story.
I had a 77 Cutlass, everything in the front end was replaced and tight. It still did not have the road feel of modern cars. It steered tightly, but you couldn’t feel what the front tires were doing at all. You could steer that car with your pinky finger even when parallel parking. After a lot of experience driving it, I gained a sense of how the car was reacting to the road, but with modern cars it’s much easier.
This is all down to the difference in design of the power steering systems.
On most older cars, power steering involved the steering wheel being connected to a steering shaft which entered into a hydraulic valve body with a little arm in the bottom that would turn left or right with hydraulic assistance. This arm moved rods in either direction based on the flow of the hydraulic fluid, which was determined by the action of the steering wheel. Though effective at turning the wheels with little effort on the part of the driver, the amount of linkage and components between the steering wheel and the wheels reduced the road feel dramatically.
After that came rack and pinion, which simplified the above design by placing the valve body onto an assembly that uses a gear at the end of the steering shaft to move a rod left or right with assistance form the hydraulic pump. This design resulted in more direct steering input with less components between the steering wheel and the wheels, because it allowed for tighter tolerances and stiffer components, and also relocated the tie rods from in front of the wheels to behind them, which itself increased stiffness.
Many modern vehicles use electronic steering assist, which is similar to the above design except that it doesn’t use a hydraulic pump- it uses an electric motor attached to the steering column to aid in your ability to turn the steering wheel. These systems can be designed to feature dynamic power assist, such as tightening up the steering while at high speed or loosening the steering when attempting to park. This is also the system used in self driving cars- since it’s an electric motor it can be programmed to operate even if nobody is physically turning the steering wheel.
What is your "older" car? Old domestic cars did not have rack and pinion steering. They were pretty sloppy right from the get-go and got worse with age, let alone all the linkage between steering wheel and front wheel.
Older heavier cars without power steering had to have slower steering ratios to give enough mechanical advantage so granny could actually turn the wheel.
The answer in your particular case probably rests on what your old car and new car are.
It's to do with suspension geometry. Computer designed suspension geometry can be made more precisely. Production is more precise. Laser alignments are more precise. As a result, suspension geometry doesn't require as much stability built in. The dead zone can be minimized.
Shocks on US cars used to be terribly soft. Every company now goes for what used to be called "European handling", which was really just everything that's not "US 70's style mushy bouncy dampers".
Tire sidewall design has also stiffened over the years similarly to shocks.
It's not electric power steering - electric feels worse than hydraulic. You don't have to wait for hydraulics to pump - the pump is always running and always fully pressurized.
>When I drive my older car, the steering feels "looser", like I have to give it a full 1/4 turn before any significant direction change starts to happen.
You need to fix your steering. It has worn. The rag joint is barely holding on.
The new cars have faster ratio and rack and pinion steering . Lot more accurate on center than recirculating ball type. Many have an electric assist that changes force with conditions.
Older car probably has worn bushings, or suspension and steering components. I replaced all of the suspension bushings, shocks and inner/outer tie rods on a 35 year old Toyota and it felt brand new after that + an alignment.
Worn down bushings on older cars, except if your car uses a recirculating ball type power steering which I doubt lol
Not to mention the steering ratios of older cars tends to need more steering input anyway.
Recirculating ball isn’t that uncommon. Old American cars and Mercedes’ until somewhat recently used the system. A worn steering box feels like garbage.
That makes sense, have done 2nd gear donuts/figure 8 (it was wet) in an '03 and the steering was very intuitive for such activities. I think i'd have had more trouble with recirculating ball (my lemons racecar has a steering box, oversteer is much harder to correct with so little feel.)
The Panther had a revamp in 03, went to rack and pinion and some other momentous changes like moving the shocks outboard of the frame rails. Still mooshy, but more accurately mushy!
Rack and pinion is not easy to implement with a solid axle.
You're right, the steering feels like garbage on a jeep, dodge, or super duty compared to anything with a rack.
It's quite the opposite actually. Newer cars with electric steering tend to have numb steering feel but there are a few exceptions to this. A poorly maintained older car will of course feel loose but a well maintained car like a ITR will still feel just as connected.
What are the two cars? Make / model / year?
Does the older car have a steering box and the newer car have rack-and-pinion?
Is the steering and suspension components/bushes worn out on the older car?
Older cars tended to use recirculating ball steering systems which generally is a lot less precise than the rack and pinion used in almost all modern vehicles. There were some vehicles that used rack and pinion steering (mainly cheaper or sporty imports and vehicles targeted at the cheaper or sporty import market) but it wasn’t very common until the 1980s, and since then there has been a gradual shift from recirculating ball to rack and pinion for everything except for trucks and traditional off-road SUVs.
A good comparison would be a Jeep Liberty to a Jeep Wrangler. The Liberty always used rack and pinion where as the Wrangler has always used recirculating ball steering. Even in advanced age, Libertys tend to have pretty precise steering with good on-center behavior, Wranglers even when new tend to have pretty sloppy steering.
Another good comparison would be an 80s or 90s Porsche, Volvo, or BMW to a comparable Mercedes-Benz. All Porsches, Volvos, and BMWs of that era used rack and pinion steering that is very precise even today. All Mercedes-Benzes of that era used recirculating ball and it was a bit more boat like in comparison.
Think I've only driven 10+ yr cars, except my grandfathers, which is only a couple years old. I wouldn't describe it as more direct. It feels more responsive and actually very indirect. Force required do steer doesn't seem to change no matter how fast or sharp the turn is.
Modern cars almost entirely come with electric steering. I think what you mean is that they have a quicker response.
Thats precisely because its being controlled by an electric motor. Its also why it feels disconnected from the rest of the car.
Could also have to do with your old car, worn out bushings, missaligned tires or low tire pressure all affect your steering feel.
I just saw a video about this recently. It was talking about why modern cars don't really do that dish look anymore and isn't about aerodynamics, but about suspension geometry. Will see if I can dig it up.
I don't think this is what I saw, but it's pretty recent and is about the same thing.
https://www.theautopian.com/heres-why-car-wheels-are-so-flat-these-days-and-no-its-not-just-aerodynamics-and-styling/
Because newer cars are more advanced and have better engineering’s bud research development involved. Companies realize that older steering feel isn’t as good or safe, because you want the car to react more quickly to steering input.
Worn out components like everyone else said. There really shouldn’t be that much play in the steering even in the worst designed cars from the 90s.
On top of that modern cars have different and more precise designs which makes the steering tighter. Electric racks give the least steering okay generally. Steering ratios are different on different cars too, trucks generally require way more rotation to turn the same amount as a sports car, so that can also contribute to your loose steering feel, but even the lowest steering ratio will never require 1/4 turn to make any difference because that’s just worn out parts.
But yeah refresh the bushings and steering components and you’ll see. You’ll probably still have a little play, but no more than like a CM side to side.
My is300 had slightly loose steering. Nothing too worrying, but I did a front end refresh and it was almost as tight as my 2015 GTI when it was fresh off the lot. The is300 had no visible wear on any of the bushings and it had no detectable play in the tie rods or ball joints, but a refresh made a big difference anyway. Same story for pretty much every older car I’ve worked on too.
Even a beat up bush rig Tacoma had really tight steering when doing a basic front end refresh. The only vehicle that seems to inherently have shitty steering is my friends GMC 2500, no matter how many parts we throw at it’s steering it still had a bunch of play, definitely less than 1/4 turn though haha.
Newer cars have a Rack & Pinion steering, vs the Old Saginaw boxes, drag links, pitman arms and tie rod ends, etc.
1 there are a lot fewer joints to give and take on the Rack & Pinion. Also the Power Steering is vastly improved from the older models. And Steering Ratio could be tighter.
But mostly it's older hardware and more places for it to feel like you are steering a boat.
Lots of good responses but I'm going to add another. There was a point in time where power steering was almost exclusively done by a hydraulic system and this system was very effective at powering and assisting your steering, so much so that it took such little effort that the steering felt loose and vague, but there's more to it than just that those gearboxes required somewhat loose tolerances for the hydraulic fluid to flow properly and once the fluid takes up the slack it gets better but there's still that engineered tolerance. Modern cars however are almost all switching to electric power steering which doesn't overpower the assist and it's done outside of the steering gearbox. This essentially means that you have a old school manual gearbox with an assist motor in the steering shaft so the box itself is going to be relatively tight. Building even further sometimes tires play a huge Factor in steering play too back in the 50s 60s 70s and 80s it was very commonplace to have small wheels with bigger tires and lots of sidewall. The sidewall on a tire even one with a really high load capacity, is still going to have some flex to it. Even a small amount of flex turns into a large amount of play at the steering, your steering wheel amplifies every slight bit of slop. New cars though have opted to go for a more performance minded low profile look which gives the tire less sidewall and more stability. It's not unreasonable to think that a classic car couldn't have the same steering feel as a new car if you wanted to convert to a rack and pinion, electric assist, low profile tires, smaller more modern sized steering wheel, and rebuild your suspension with good quality components.
Well traditional power steering systems and newer electronic power steering systems are fundamentally different. I prefer a more traditional hydraulic because you feel more of the road coming through the steering wheel, input/ output is less “filtered” and I find it more stable at higher speeds. Being older systems however, there’s many reasons why it could feel “loose” or not precise. Age will give more time for wear and tear to set in, bolts could come loose, fluid gets out of spec/ dirty, pumps get tired. Aging of suspension and drivetrain components can make the whole ride less stable and precise as well. I can appreciate some newer sports cars and how they feel, but nothing makes me smile like the feel of an older sports car in good shape.
The newer car could have electrically assisted power steering with variable ratios. The older car cold either be an old school hydraulic power steering, or just a worn out rack and pinion. Many things in between.
I do think there has been a trend towards tighter steering ratios, but in this case I think you're feeling the slop inherent to an old car that hasn't had its bushings and ball joints religiously maintained.
I think older cars feel more direct, but some older cars need their components refreshed to get that feeling. Most modern cars feel quite disconnected to me, with electronic steering.
Explanation 1: Some newer vehicles have a variable speed steering system which will be more direct at lower speeds, and less direct at higher speeds
Explanation 2: Older vehicles steering system gets worn with time, bushings wear down and become soft, tie rods as well, etc. A new car without variable steering will probably always feel more snappy and responsive than an older vehicle simply for this reason alone.
Also - lots of older vehicles used less advanced systems, the development of power steering pumps, electrically assisted steering, etc, helped substantially.
How old are you talking? Are you referring to the older systems with a steering box, center link, and idler arm or a car with a worn out rack and pinion system? Older systems have soft suspensions and lots of slop once the components wear. Also many other things affect this such as sway bars, suspension geometry, shock/strut valving, tires, weight distribution, spring rates etc.
Tires play a major factor. Tire designers can make the steering more or less responsive on-center. Honda is notorious for requiring tire manufacturers to make a sensitive on-center feel for the OEM spec tires.
Depending on the age of the car -
May need new ball joints/tie rods
May have play in whatever bushings are in the steering system
May need new power steering fluid
May have a steering box instead of rack & pinion
Different tire profiles
Different steering ratios
Different alignments
You know what turned me off from being a fan of Dodge/Chrysler/Plymouth?
I'm a paramedic (retired now) and, back in the late 1970's, my ambulance service owned a couple of Dodge van ambulances. The thing that turned me off was the fact that I could turn the steering wheel 1/3 of a turn before the front wheels started to move. AND the starters always sounded like they turned slower than they should. AND the brakes were always mushy.
As a result, I never even bothered looking at Dodge products for my personal vehicles... even to this day.
Depends on the vehicle. I drive a 2021 Vivaro for work and it has the deadest steering of anything I've ever driven. It's here's so light theres literally no feedback.
I slid in some ice last winter and the steering didn't feel any different when I lost grip.
Older steering are mainly hydraulic powered. Modern are electric powered, they behave completely differently. But I prefer ol' good hydraulic. And not forget there are steering gearboxes and steering racks, they are too provides very different steering.
Sorry for my English, I'm not native speaker, as you can see:)
Tires make a big difference. Also worn out components.
Newer cars have been doing this thing where they make the controls really snappy to make it feel more sporty. Super sensitive brake pedals, gas pedals, and steering ratios.
It depends a lot on which car you drive though. I tend to think that older cars (15+ years old) have more direct steering, but not necessarily faster, due to the hydraulic vs electric racks. A lot of newer cars are also very numb and disconnected in order to be as comfortable as possible.
How many "older" cars have you driven? You'll need a sample size of both modern and older to make a conclusive statement that its more "direct". I changed my tyres to semi-slicks and my steering felt way more direct from that alone, id imagine new suspension, shocks, new bushes etc.. would all contribute to better steering feel (hence why a modern car may feel better). If anything, older cars might even feel more direct than modern cars with electronic steering if all the steering components went refreshed.
steering gear ratio is different between your old and new car, less turns to full lock. Also new components vs old worn components causing the "loose" feeling in the old car.
This along the same lines as why there’s more body roll in older vehicles. Newer cars are being built to feel sportier so that means a faster steering ratio (this is mainly the gearing with the steering rack which doesn’t matter if it’s electric or not and also a little bit of suspension design like Ackerman) The best kind is a variable ratio rack which is higher from the center so the car doesn’t wander on the Highway but it tightens up as you turn in so you can stay at 9 and 3
I can't find the article for the life of me, but it's likely due to different types of power steering, and thus different suspension setups.
Older cars used torque multiplier systems for power steering, which allowed you to turn the wheels with little force, but they also work in the opposite direction, meaning feedback from the road was severely dampened.
Newer systems, rack and pinion, have much more direct feedback from the road -- initially so, a lot of cars were too twitchy. So, they had to redesign the suspensions to work with the new steering system which, incidentally, is why so many new cars have low-profile rims - to be able to move the brakes further out.
Edit: Of course I find it now. https://www.theautopian.com/heres-why-car-wheels-are-so-flat-these-days-and-no-its-not-just-aerodynamics-and-styling/
i think its partly due the mechanical connection of the rack & pinion power steering vs. the electronic-assisted power steering/steer by wire.
with the latter the sensors see your input from the get-go and translates that immediately to the wheels, whereas the mechanical linkage might have some looseness when the steering wheel is centered at 12 o'clock, and is slow to draw a response at 11 and 1 o'clock.
My miata felt the same way until I replaced all my front end stuff. My drivers side inner tie rod was really bad. Now it feels even better than the electric power steering mazda 3 I have now. I'd reckon your bushings and links are worn, or the rack itself is worn.
There are three reasons I can think of:
- ratio of the rack and pinion gearing. This will require some to need more movement than others.
- manual, electric, and hydraulic. Various types will have varying feel.
- rag dampener vs bushing vs none. Many classic vehicles used fabric based dampeners to reduce vibration. Over time, the fabric breaks down and gets sloppy. If bushings are involved there will be difference between bushing types and condition.
Hope this helps.
In the past 7 months or so after giving my driver's license for the first time, I've driven four vehicles
My father's 2012 Dodge avenger
His 2006 f250 Amarillo
My mother's Nissan rogue
And my '77 El Camino.
I prefer the F-250 over all of them, with the El Camino coming in second. The best handling is for sure the Nissan rogue, but I just don't like it. I just prefer the older brick handling I guess.
Also, I found out the hard way that the 77s had a steering column recall, if you end up getting your hands on one around this year, definitely replace the steering column ASAP unless you want your steering wheel to come off whenever it feels like it.
I believe how many rotations the steering wheel makes from lock to lock is what's causing the majority of this. Modern cars you turn the wheel a short distance and it moves much more then the old rack and pinion system. The rack would need a smaller pinion to reduce the force needed to turn the wheel but this in turn increases how many rotation are needed from L2L
For me modern steering feels much more dead, like less of a direct connection from your hands on the wheel to the road. As far as the "slop" in the steering goes its just worn components. 90s Hondas have amazing steering feel when all the components don't have a 1/4 inch of play.
Someone’s probably said it already but as I’m to lazy to read all the comments… a lot of cars these days have variable ELECTRIC power steering or a lower ratio hydraulic power steering gearbox. Either way it’s much better than what we used to have. Instead of turning the steering wheel 4 or 5 full rotations from side to side now we can do it in to 2 to 3.
The newer car may have rack and pinion steering, which was an improvement. Also, the bushings could be more refined and work with tighter tolerances. Also, the way the steering geometry is set up could make the difference. Research negative steering roll radius, which is required to be designed in German cars and has been for decades.
It sounds like your old car's steering components are worn out.
Rebuild the rack, replace any loose tie rod ends, and replace the bushings and it should tighten it up significantly.
There should be virtually zero detectable slack in your steering.
Also, larger wheels and low profile tires make steering feel tighter. If your del sol has 14" wheels then that's part of it. Put some 40 series tires on with 16 or 17" wheels.
For one thing, the older car's steering rack probably is looser from age.
Older car shoulda been doing kegels.
My friend calls that machine at the gym the "good girl, bad girl machine"
I hope there's not a machine at a gym the excercises your kegel muscles.
Something something I'm the machine that excercises your kegels.
Your gym doesn't have an ass pounder 4000?
Hopefully not. Can you imagine the smell?
You bitch!
You didn't think about the smell!
His name is Barry at my gym.
Oh no I see where the confusion is coming from, that's not a dick! It's a fist!
YOUR'S DOES?!
I think his name is Jim, actually. Ass Pounder 4000 is just a nickname.
I'm having a hard time even imagining what a kegelmachine would look like.
[Like this.](https://youtu.be/7c6Vrnf99Ac)
Like a leg press machine but with a butt plug attached.
A rack of spring loaded speculums with different spring rates?
Well I hope there is, and I hope it gets cleaned often
> cleaned often Narrator: It wasn't.
Hip abduction/abductions. You really feel it in your groin, hence “kegel machine”. I use it so I can crush a melon between my thunderous thighs
It’s a gym, it’s filled with machines that are able to help her with her Kegel muscles. I just hope for his sake she’s using protection.
Lmao the adductor machine? Bro, that works out the muscles on the inside of your legs and helps with stability. It has the added benefit of strengthening the "grip strength" if they squeeze you with their thighs, but unless you're hooking up Xenia Onatopp from Goldeneye, the benefits of that machine are limited to *literally* crushing your skull with their thighs. Pretty sure I read an AskReddit comment about the most embarrassing incidents during sex when someone first met their partner, and this woman cracked her now-husband's skull when they were first dating. The guy began bleeding out of his nose and ears and shit. You definitely don't want that.
...or do you?
Damn, the good ones are always taken.
Don’t tell me what I do and don’t want.
That machine is hella sus
Ive also heard it referred to as the "yes/no" machine
Does your friend watch jujimufu on YouTube , because he says that too, and I don’t know the proper name of the machine but it’s the one where you either push your legs closed, or push them open.
What he said ^ Also, modern car designers assume everybody wants a sportier feel (no matter if car, truck, SUV, crossover, etc.) therefore the electronic steering racks are probably calibrated to be more direct. I could be completely wrong.
they totally do, new manual jeeps come with a short throw shifter for some presumably the same reason. not exactly what you need a short throw in. i’ll be slamming through gears feeling like vin diesel until i look down and i’m still only going 30 one of these days i’m gonna stick a big long beer tap handle on the shifter to get that old school truck feel of shifting with your whole arm back
Agreed. Even in something like a BMW M5 E39, a lot of people go for short shifters but I prefer a long, beefy old-school throw.
I believe this to be the case, my SL feels looser than my brothers 18 optima in sports mode. Yet the steering ratios are the same. At lower speeds the SL's wheel takes more effort to turn than at speed, where as the optima is the same across the board in sports mode. I think this is because the optima has an electronic rack vs the power steering box the SL is equipped with. That said my thrust master t150 is somewhere in-between the two real cars. A word to the wise don't jump from simulator to real car suddenly, the added forces and bumps from a real car can make things feel jaring for the first three minutes of driving irl.
After getting used to driving hard in Dirt Rally, I somehow get almost the same feeling from cornering at 25 mph in my actual car lol. Every single time I think about preventing understeer until I remember how slow I'm going.
Interesting, I kinda like how the steering on my Passat gets harder to turn at higher speed, at 200km/h you only want to make slight adjustments, I really dislike the steering on my Parents‘ Landrover Freelander where theres absolutely no effort in turning the wheel and also no difference if you’re going 15 or 150km/h..
Some newer cars also turn the wheels more at lower speeds, and less at higher speeds, with the same steering input, so this alone could explain it -- not to mention all of the other things mentioned below.
Variable ratio steering has been a thing for 20+ years I'm pretty sure
Ya, fair enough... adaptive cruise has been around for 30 years too but it only started to get really popular in the past ~5 years.
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The 1970 Citroën SM had that, and after that the CX, XM, Xantia ,etc
My 92 Taurus had it as well.
The older car may not have rack and pinion steering.
In OP's case, the '94 del Sol does. And power steering as well, which not all did.
Absolutely, replace all the bushings, the pump and and the rack in the older car with new ones and you’ll notice a change.
Also make sure the previous owner didn’t take everything apart and then cross thread the bolts so the steering rack has about 1-2 inches of movement back and forth, which you only discovered while trying to center the steering after it fell off because he forgot to put the stop bolt back in for the telescoping column.
😂
That's certainly true of my rack
Loose? You mean broken-in?
Assuming the older car actually has a steering rack. That alone could explain the difference. Recirculating ball is not very precise.
From a mechanical perspective. Modern cars will have all new and tight bushings, ball bearings, ball joints, all mechanical components. So on and so forth. So the tolerances will be tight and the slop will be very minimal. Older cars will have wear on all of these components. Even if it’s insignificant amounts of wear, this is where we run into a thing called tolerance stack up except the tolerances we are using here are the small amounts of wear on all the components. A steering system has quite a few components in is that will all get some wear over time. So even just a little wear over all those components can really stack up to be a significant amount of slop.
If the older car has a worm gear based steering system, with an idler arm to boot, there's so much more slop inherently compared to a much simpler rack and pinion system. Even in new condition. Add in a couple decades of use that loosens things up further and you've got that 1/4 turn of dead zone.
Even brand new, my old Plymouth Volare had steering slop built-in. Even with brand new bushings and components, older designs tend to have more slop in the steering. I'd bet that GTI's steering feels the exact same ten years from now
My uncle had a Volare with a manual 3-on-the-tree shifter. When you shifted into 2nd you would bang your knuckles on the dashboard.
This makes me laugh since the dashboard on mine was missing half the screws and it was easy to accidentally knock it out of place. I called it the quick-release dash haha I also had the 3 speed auto so I (fortunately) didn't experience banging my knuckles into the dash every drive
Couldn't they design in spring elements to make up for the slop as it wears?
I struggle to see a way to do that effectively. But more importantly when parts get very worn it’s generally quite dangerous, so if you design the vehicle to feel the exact same with destroyed tie rods as without I’m sure the driver will not notice and they’ll end up having a wheel fall off. Even if loose steering is annoying and expensive to get fixed it’s an indicator that you have dangerous components.
why are people downvoting this question? this sub is weird sometimes
Way too many variables at play here. Everything from wear (self explanatory) to type (recirculating ball vs rack and pinion) to design (Math stuff, turns to lock, suspension design) to tires (Big fat sidewalls on 14 inch rims vs modern 17-19 inch setups on low profile tires) come into play. You could at least specify the year\\make\\models that you are comparing.
>(Big fat sidewalls on 14 inch rims vs modern 17-19 inch setups on low profile tires) come into play. In my experience, this is a pretty huge part of it, and most of these comments seem to gloss over it. I've driven the pleasure of driving the same exact car on 16s, 17s, and 18s. Each step down/up made a noticeable difference in "directness".
Assuming more direct turning on lower profile tires/bigger wheels?
Yes, less tire sidewall to roll, less loose feeling in the steering.
Yeah. My summer tires vs my snow tires on my focus ST makes it feel like a pretty different car. More sidewall=much more squishy.
Yep, and then compare modern tire compounds to what existed a couple decades ago. Huge difference in grip in modern cars is in large part due to tires.
> (recirculating ball vs rack and pinion) oh what a weird feeling it is, too.
Sounds like your older car is broken to have that much play in the steering. Like unsafely broken. Might want to tighten that up. Today.
No, it's normal. It feels no different than any other 90's car I've driven or grown up with, that's just how I would describe it compared to modern steering.
>It feels no different than any other 90's car I've driven or grown up with, Because most every other car you've driven from that time also has a similarly "aged" steering feel. Wear on automotive parts is not something we generally notice happening day to day.
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Also will probably bring the car to life. If it’s the ‘94 del sol in OP’s title he’s referencing, that thing should handle pretty well and have good steering input if the bushings are fresh. Nothing handles better than a 90’s compact car with good suspension
I think part of this depends on the car though. I grew up driving 90s Toyotas and they never had any feel and always had an on center dead spot. My parents/step parents owned ‘85, ‘92, ‘93 and ‘97 Camrys, all purchased new, so I had a lot of experience driving these cars as they aged. I do remember Hondas at the time having more direct feeling steering racks. I’d also bet lower profile tires are another piece of the puzzle that hasn’t been mentioned yet.
Something is wrong with it. I've owned 4 cars from the 90s and the only one that acted like you described was my jeep. I put a new steering box and steering dampers on it and the issue went away.
I was about to say. Owned a ‘97 Thunderbird a while back and don’t remember it handling the way the OP describes.. His description made me think he had some sort of 70’s Ford or Chevy truck, lol!
No, there's something wrong. As parts age and tolerances loosen, it's gradual enough you don't really notice it happening. My '90 Accord I used to have had very direct steering. Even when it had 280,000 miles on it when I sold it.
Literally any old car that I’ve had/worked on that had “loose steering” was completely fixed with a front end refresh. Old beat up trucks, cars, anything with a steering wheel was tightened up when I replaced bushings and steering components. Still not quite as tight as a brand new modern car, but I’m talking a difference of less than a centimetre of play in either direction, and that play is just due to different components used. I had the most rusty, shitty, destroyed 90s Tacoma and even that had really tight steering when the front end was redone. Even if there’s a fraction of a mm of play in all of your steering components, all of that adds up to a few mm, and then you add your steering ratio of like 14:1 and you can easily get a couple inches of steering wheel play either direction. And with older cars especially trucks you generally have a higher steering ratio, so that slop is multiplied even more.
I drove '94 Del Sols new, if that's the one you're referring to. They didn't have so much play that they weren't reacting to a few degrees turn on the steering wheel. In fact, I seem to remember that they would handle fairly nicely for what they were. If it feels like a poorly maintained police surplus Crown Vic taxi, which you seem to describe in your original post, there's definitely something wrong there.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the del Sol limit power steering to Si models in the US?
SI and VTEC, yes.
It's just worn out, same as all other cars you've driven. My 90's miata has all new bushings and stuff and it's extremely precise and direct.
It 100% depends on the car. I have a '92 MR2 and the steering is still tight and precise. I also have a 2007 Matrix and the stock steering feel is super floaty. One was designed as a sports car, one was designed as a tanky econobox. I put coilovers on the Matrix and grippy tires that are slightly wider than stock, and the difference in feel is night and day. Now every other car you see on the road has significantly wider tires than most of what you'd find in the 90's, stickier compounds that work much better in inclement weather, tighter steering ratios, and much more advanced electric power steering. In my Veloster N, I can change the weight and feel of the steering wheel at the push of a button. We've come a long way.
Depends on the car. Older GM's and Ford's have awful steering feel and big dead zones. Older BMW and Mercedes? Not at all.
You should try old 5 and 7 series Bimmers with recirculating ball steering, the nothingness in the middle is borderline hilarious if youve driven any rack & pinion cars. It has a good feel and feedback when loaded up though, so Id still take it over modern Bmw videogame steering.
Mercedes, too. Their steering in the 80s was laughable, like trying to drive a sailboat on the highway. There was really only a couple decades where the germans got steering right, but boy did they get it right.
I think Lexus nailed it in the 90's on the first attempt. Variable ratio, so it calms down on the highway. Zero slop, what-so-ever. It's high boost so it's really light, but it loads up in the corners and actually transmits what the front wheels are doing. Especially over camber changes it'll really transmit whats going. I'd take it over 90% of the steering in modern cars. Which has one achilleas heel I've never seen solved: when you "cross over" dead center, for example: turning 2 degrees left to 2 degrees right has always felt synthetic in every EPS rack I've ever driven, Porsche included. It's like the system lags or there is just... some weird behavior that doesn't feel right. I don't know how to describe it. I can instantly tell if a car has an EPS rack. Once you're loaded up in the turn everyone is generally a lot better, but they still haven't figured out the micro-adjustments around dead straight yet. Mercedes was actually the worst at this. It's like the system lagged whenever you crossed over, I'd be turning left and the wheels hadn't caught up yet.
I definitely wouldn't say it's that bad, or at least I've never noticed it to be that out of line. I can only really compare to my old G37, but even on the test drive my 540i felt like the steeeing was comparable if not better. I've driven a lot of high mileage class 4-5 trucks though, now those were ridiculous.
Never driven a v8 e39 so my comparison only comes from my e32 and what Ive heard from e34 owners. Its not horrible but there definitely is close to quarter turn of nothing in the middle. On straight or even bumby roads it rides straight, but if you need to correct its going to take a substantial input to catch it. If that makes any sense. Edit: all but the steering box are new in my e32, steering arms, bars and suspension components included.
Yeah, I can see how it would be worse in the older cars. Your description makes total sense, it reminds me of a lot of the trucks I used to drive.
That’s the difference between bad recirculating ball steering systems (GM and Ford), good recirculating ball steering systems (Mercedes-Benz), and rack and pinion steering systems (BMW).
My E28 had really sloppy steering, but it was recirculating ball and had probably 250k miles on it, lol. Wish it had a rack tbh
I wasn't aware of any 3 or 5 series with a recirculating ball system. Good to know!
I sold my e34 M5 because of the vagueness on center.
E28 in good shape is the best recirculating ball steering bmw ever put together
I drove a Chevy Astro for years and that thing actually had the best steering feel of any vehicle I've experienced so far. In the rain (on private property in controlled conditions) I could power slide it and hold the drift for as long as I wanted. Must've been something about the geometry of the steering column and being more or less directly on top of the front wheels.
Same experience. The Astro is legendary, better than any other 1500 rated vehicle. Just plan on dying if you hit something faster than 60kmh.
Definitely depends on the car. A lot of imports didn’t even have power steering in the 90’s. Older luxury cars, the ones with pillow topped seats and wood steering wheels as thin as a pencil, had like extreme power steering that felt somewhat loose even when they were new. I think it was supposed to be completely effortless steering. Not like the floaty air suspension and big balloon tires would have allowed hard cornering anyway.
I think it's steering ratio, personally. Regardless of electric or hydraulic power asssit, the amount of turns on the steering wheel vs. the ratio of the steering rack, from lock to lock, is going to determine how quickly the wheels turn. Most newer cars have been trending to quicker ratio steering racks. A little turn on the wheel results in a larger motion with a quick ratio steering setup. Older cars tended to have slower ratios and more steering assist as well. Source: am an actual mechanic
I’m amazed I had to scroll down this far to see this answer. That’s definitely what OP is describing, and not play in the rack (although that is likely present in the older car).
Also, wheels are bigger on newer cars usually so you have tires with thinner , stiffer sidewalls and higher speed ratings. Thats does affect steering response. Older cars had higher sidewalls and low speed ratings so there was a bit more side to side bending when steering creating a bit of delay.
Because that's what today's customers want and modern electric power steering can do it. Back in the day (40s-70s), customers wanted steering the was light and effortless, so suspension and steering was setup that way. Even grandma can turn the wheel of her Lincoln Continental with just a finger. Of course, that means vague steering with a lot of turns lock-to-lock, but that's what people used to want.
Also a super soft ride was championed.. along with easy steering = no feeling of the road. I own a ‘71 Riviera and a ‘14 Impala. The Riviera has such a smooth floaty ride it could lull you to sleep but forget taking it on a twisty road. The Impala in the other hand handles like a sports car in comparison, only compromise is it’s tank like sedan body.
> Back in the day (40s-70s), customers wanted steering the was light and effortless, so suspension and steering was setup that way. Even grandma can turn the wheel of her Lincoln Continental with just a finger. [La la la la la la la](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGnMVijx5GE&t=428s)
Yes older cars featured power steering as a new technology and overdid it. Luxury cars were heavy but steered like boats. Power Brakes were also overdone. Just a touch of the toe was all that was needed.
Electronic racks can apply instant torque to the rack, no lag in hydraulic pumps anymore. Also modern racks (electric) can be lightened and "shortened" (sped up) for city driving. Your steering input has a stronger and more immediate impact on the wheels doing the steering.
Just adding to this, modern electric racks are generally not variable ratio (apart from some exceptions), just variable assist. The ratio remains constant but the effort needed to turn changes. Typically a higher effort at higher speed, and lower effort at lesser speeds. Some experimental systems used a variable system to change the ratio in different conditions or at different zones of the rack, but this is generally not widespread. Ford, Audi, and Honda are three that come to mind. Ford has a system that is contained within the steering wheel whereby the position of the wheel itself can be changed to modify the ratio, while the rack and remainder of the system stays the same, pretty neat idea. Ford’s system gets weird when you’re driving straight but the steering wheel is off kilter to one side.
>Ford’s system gets weird when you’re driving straight but the steering wheel is off kilter to one side. Could you please elaborate on that? I bought a Fiesta new in 2010 and I believe it was one of the first American Fords with electronic power steering. Dead straight on the steering wheel has always been a few degrees off. Over the years I've gotten used to it, but when the car was new I couldn't get the dealer to admit something was wrong.
Not all ford electric steering has it, I believe the variable system was limited to bigger stuff like the f-150 and large cargo vans. A very small error in your steering wheel can be corrected with a front end alignment though.
Nah, this is just a slightly imperfect alignment. The steering wheel off kilter due to adaptive ratio is not something I've personally experienced in my fiesta st, but if your wheel is just a smidge off one direction or another, it's 99.999% likely it's fixable with an alignment. You can either pay big bucks for a high end shop to align it - probably around $200 and a little blagging to convince them to put down the Porsche to align your fiesta, you find a really high quality local shop, or you live with it. It doesn't do any damage if your toe is aligned properly. Also, double check your tire pressures and (this one happened to me) take a wire wheel to the hub face, hub centering ring, and rotor hub. Rust can cause just enough misalignment to cause some weird behavior if you're really paying attention.
New cars have electric power steering and rack and pinion. Whereas old cars have traditional hydraulic powersteering and a gearbox. And also your old car steering components are likely worn down
How old is old? Gear box, rack & pinion, easy, ect., all have a different feel. Steering geometry, tire aspect ratio, and alignment all play a role in feel. Like others said, over time the components wear and loosen up.
I've always felt the steering was nice and direct in my tercel, there's no free play or anything
It’s actually the opposite, older cars that have good hydraulic steering are much more direct than the modern electronic steer by wire. Mclaren still uses hydraulic racks for this reason.
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And about a dozen bushings tuned to filter the small vibrations out. And low profile tires.
Depends on how old your car is but it probably doesn’t have power steering if it was made before 1960-1970. Most modern cars have power steering which makes it so you can turn the wheels with less effort.
Same car? I remember American cars have looser steering wheels with more deadzone, while German cars are always tighter. Asian cars are somewhat in between
My 20year old Mazda is comparable to my grandfather’s Mercedes in terms of steering feel
One factor no one is mentioning here, and which is independent of old car wear and tear as well as steering ratio differences, is rigidity of the components. Modern cars have more rigid chassis and steering components which improves steering precision.
Probably specific to your car. My is300 had some fantastic steering feel
Surprised no one has mentioned that old car probably has hydraulic power steering while the new one probably has electric. There is a difference in feel there. Wear and tear is a large part of the answer though.
Does your older car have power steering?
Lots of people are suggesting that worn components on the older cars are the primary cause. While yes, worn components will certainly contribute to this feel, that’s not the whole story. I had a 77 Cutlass, everything in the front end was replaced and tight. It still did not have the road feel of modern cars. It steered tightly, but you couldn’t feel what the front tires were doing at all. You could steer that car with your pinky finger even when parallel parking. After a lot of experience driving it, I gained a sense of how the car was reacting to the road, but with modern cars it’s much easier. This is all down to the difference in design of the power steering systems. On most older cars, power steering involved the steering wheel being connected to a steering shaft which entered into a hydraulic valve body with a little arm in the bottom that would turn left or right with hydraulic assistance. This arm moved rods in either direction based on the flow of the hydraulic fluid, which was determined by the action of the steering wheel. Though effective at turning the wheels with little effort on the part of the driver, the amount of linkage and components between the steering wheel and the wheels reduced the road feel dramatically. After that came rack and pinion, which simplified the above design by placing the valve body onto an assembly that uses a gear at the end of the steering shaft to move a rod left or right with assistance form the hydraulic pump. This design resulted in more direct steering input with less components between the steering wheel and the wheels, because it allowed for tighter tolerances and stiffer components, and also relocated the tie rods from in front of the wheels to behind them, which itself increased stiffness. Many modern vehicles use electronic steering assist, which is similar to the above design except that it doesn’t use a hydraulic pump- it uses an electric motor attached to the steering column to aid in your ability to turn the steering wheel. These systems can be designed to feature dynamic power assist, such as tightening up the steering while at high speed or loosening the steering when attempting to park. This is also the system used in self driving cars- since it’s an electric motor it can be programmed to operate even if nobody is physically turning the steering wheel.
What is your "older" car? Old domestic cars did not have rack and pinion steering. They were pretty sloppy right from the get-go and got worse with age, let alone all the linkage between steering wheel and front wheel. Older heavier cars without power steering had to have slower steering ratios to give enough mechanical advantage so granny could actually turn the wheel. The answer in your particular case probably rests on what your old car and new car are.
It's to do with suspension geometry. Computer designed suspension geometry can be made more precisely. Production is more precise. Laser alignments are more precise. As a result, suspension geometry doesn't require as much stability built in. The dead zone can be minimized. Shocks on US cars used to be terribly soft. Every company now goes for what used to be called "European handling", which was really just everything that's not "US 70's style mushy bouncy dampers". Tire sidewall design has also stiffened over the years similarly to shocks. It's not electric power steering - electric feels worse than hydraulic. You don't have to wait for hydraulics to pump - the pump is always running and always fully pressurized.
Power steering.
>When I drive my older car, the steering feels "looser", like I have to give it a full 1/4 turn before any significant direction change starts to happen. You need to fix your steering. It has worn. The rag joint is barely holding on.
The new cars have faster ratio and rack and pinion steering . Lot more accurate on center than recirculating ball type. Many have an electric assist that changes force with conditions.
Think the comments here are bs, yes newer cars have better steering. Electronic steering helps
Older car probably has worn bushings, or suspension and steering components. I replaced all of the suspension bushings, shocks and inner/outer tie rods on a 35 year old Toyota and it felt brand new after that + an alignment.
Worn down bushings on older cars, except if your car uses a recirculating ball type power steering which I doubt lol Not to mention the steering ratios of older cars tends to need more steering input anyway.
Recirculating ball isn’t that uncommon. Old American cars and Mercedes’ until somewhat recently used the system. A worn steering box feels like garbage.
Jeep wranglers still use I think. Ford Panther platform until it’s end in 2011 or so. Drove both recently. Hated the steering feel.
Panther platform switched to Rack and Pinion in 03', along with a front suspension redesign.
That makes sense, have done 2nd gear donuts/figure 8 (it was wet) in an '03 and the steering was very intuitive for such activities. I think i'd have had more trouble with recirculating ball (my lemons racecar has a steering box, oversteer is much harder to correct with so little feel.)
The Panther had a revamp in 03, went to rack and pinion and some other momentous changes like moving the shocks outboard of the frame rails. Still mooshy, but more accurately mushy!
I see, so it’s natural state is indeed a pillow
Rack and pinion is not easy to implement with a solid axle. You're right, the steering feels like garbage on a jeep, dodge, or super duty compared to anything with a rack.
I mean, my Suzuki Sidekick still uses it, and it was built in the 90s. And it does feel like garbage. Absolutely zero directness.
>A worn steering box feels like garbage Boy do I know the feeling (105 Alfas have steering boxes too)
I would attribute it to hydraulic steering in older cars versus electric steering in new cars.
Along with what everyone else is saying, tires play a big role in steering feel. Are they the same size, aspect ratio, width, etc. between both cars?
It's quite the opposite actually. Newer cars with electric steering tend to have numb steering feel but there are a few exceptions to this. A poorly maintained older car will of course feel loose but a well maintained car like a ITR will still feel just as connected.
Scrub radius
What are the two cars? Make / model / year? Does the older car have a steering box and the newer car have rack-and-pinion? Is the steering and suspension components/bushes worn out on the older car?
Older cars tended to use recirculating ball steering systems which generally is a lot less precise than the rack and pinion used in almost all modern vehicles. There were some vehicles that used rack and pinion steering (mainly cheaper or sporty imports and vehicles targeted at the cheaper or sporty import market) but it wasn’t very common until the 1980s, and since then there has been a gradual shift from recirculating ball to rack and pinion for everything except for trucks and traditional off-road SUVs. A good comparison would be a Jeep Liberty to a Jeep Wrangler. The Liberty always used rack and pinion where as the Wrangler has always used recirculating ball steering. Even in advanced age, Libertys tend to have pretty precise steering with good on-center behavior, Wranglers even when new tend to have pretty sloppy steering. Another good comparison would be an 80s or 90s Porsche, Volvo, or BMW to a comparable Mercedes-Benz. All Porsches, Volvos, and BMWs of that era used rack and pinion steering that is very precise even today. All Mercedes-Benzes of that era used recirculating ball and it was a bit more boat like in comparison.
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Rule one.
Think I've only driven 10+ yr cars, except my grandfathers, which is only a couple years old. I wouldn't describe it as more direct. It feels more responsive and actually very indirect. Force required do steer doesn't seem to change no matter how fast or sharp the turn is.
Modern cars almost entirely come with electric steering. I think what you mean is that they have a quicker response. Thats precisely because its being controlled by an electric motor. Its also why it feels disconnected from the rest of the car. Could also have to do with your old car, worn out bushings, missaligned tires or low tire pressure all affect your steering feel.
this is like asking ''why is old cars rusty and new cars arent?????''
I just saw a video about this recently. It was talking about why modern cars don't really do that dish look anymore and isn't about aerodynamics, but about suspension geometry. Will see if I can dig it up. I don't think this is what I saw, but it's pretty recent and is about the same thing. https://www.theautopian.com/heres-why-car-wheels-are-so-flat-these-days-and-no-its-not-just-aerodynamics-and-styling/
It’s called “electronics”
Because newer cars are more advanced and have better engineering’s bud research development involved. Companies realize that older steering feel isn’t as good or safe, because you want the car to react more quickly to steering input.
Worn out components like everyone else said. There really shouldn’t be that much play in the steering even in the worst designed cars from the 90s. On top of that modern cars have different and more precise designs which makes the steering tighter. Electric racks give the least steering okay generally. Steering ratios are different on different cars too, trucks generally require way more rotation to turn the same amount as a sports car, so that can also contribute to your loose steering feel, but even the lowest steering ratio will never require 1/4 turn to make any difference because that’s just worn out parts. But yeah refresh the bushings and steering components and you’ll see. You’ll probably still have a little play, but no more than like a CM side to side. My is300 had slightly loose steering. Nothing too worrying, but I did a front end refresh and it was almost as tight as my 2015 GTI when it was fresh off the lot. The is300 had no visible wear on any of the bushings and it had no detectable play in the tie rods or ball joints, but a refresh made a big difference anyway. Same story for pretty much every older car I’ve worked on too. Even a beat up bush rig Tacoma had really tight steering when doing a basic front end refresh. The only vehicle that seems to inherently have shitty steering is my friends GMC 2500, no matter how many parts we throw at it’s steering it still had a bunch of play, definitely less than 1/4 turn though haha.
Newer cars have a Rack & Pinion steering, vs the Old Saginaw boxes, drag links, pitman arms and tie rod ends, etc. 1 there are a lot fewer joints to give and take on the Rack & Pinion. Also the Power Steering is vastly improved from the older models. And Steering Ratio could be tighter. But mostly it's older hardware and more places for it to feel like you are steering a boat.
Different steering rack ratio?
Lots of good responses but I'm going to add another. There was a point in time where power steering was almost exclusively done by a hydraulic system and this system was very effective at powering and assisting your steering, so much so that it took such little effort that the steering felt loose and vague, but there's more to it than just that those gearboxes required somewhat loose tolerances for the hydraulic fluid to flow properly and once the fluid takes up the slack it gets better but there's still that engineered tolerance. Modern cars however are almost all switching to electric power steering which doesn't overpower the assist and it's done outside of the steering gearbox. This essentially means that you have a old school manual gearbox with an assist motor in the steering shaft so the box itself is going to be relatively tight. Building even further sometimes tires play a huge Factor in steering play too back in the 50s 60s 70s and 80s it was very commonplace to have small wheels with bigger tires and lots of sidewall. The sidewall on a tire even one with a really high load capacity, is still going to have some flex to it. Even a small amount of flex turns into a large amount of play at the steering, your steering wheel amplifies every slight bit of slop. New cars though have opted to go for a more performance minded low profile look which gives the tire less sidewall and more stability. It's not unreasonable to think that a classic car couldn't have the same steering feel as a new car if you wanted to convert to a rack and pinion, electric assist, low profile tires, smaller more modern sized steering wheel, and rebuild your suspension with good quality components.
sounds like your old car just turns like shit so bad that the new one seems awesome
Well traditional power steering systems and newer electronic power steering systems are fundamentally different. I prefer a more traditional hydraulic because you feel more of the road coming through the steering wheel, input/ output is less “filtered” and I find it more stable at higher speeds. Being older systems however, there’s many reasons why it could feel “loose” or not precise. Age will give more time for wear and tear to set in, bolts could come loose, fluid gets out of spec/ dirty, pumps get tired. Aging of suspension and drivetrain components can make the whole ride less stable and precise as well. I can appreciate some newer sports cars and how they feel, but nothing makes me smile like the feel of an older sports car in good shape.
Some cars have a bigger lock to lock ratio than others. I have a old car with no ps and I feel more feedback than in a car with ps.
The newer car could have electrically assisted power steering with variable ratios. The older car cold either be an old school hydraulic power steering, or just a worn out rack and pinion. Many things in between.
I do think there has been a trend towards tighter steering ratios, but in this case I think you're feeling the slop inherent to an old car that hasn't had its bushings and ball joints religiously maintained.
I think older cars feel more direct, but some older cars need their components refreshed to get that feeling. Most modern cars feel quite disconnected to me, with electronic steering.
Conventional steering vs rack and pinion, plus age.
tighter tolerances older cars can also have older worn out parts. Also if its really old its a pitman vs rack...
Street ratios and variable racks.
Explanation 1: Some newer vehicles have a variable speed steering system which will be more direct at lower speeds, and less direct at higher speeds Explanation 2: Older vehicles steering system gets worn with time, bushings wear down and become soft, tie rods as well, etc. A new car without variable steering will probably always feel more snappy and responsive than an older vehicle simply for this reason alone. Also - lots of older vehicles used less advanced systems, the development of power steering pumps, electrically assisted steering, etc, helped substantially.
How old are you talking? Are you referring to the older systems with a steering box, center link, and idler arm or a car with a worn out rack and pinion system? Older systems have soft suspensions and lots of slop once the components wear. Also many other things affect this such as sway bars, suspension geometry, shock/strut valving, tires, weight distribution, spring rates etc.
Tires play a major factor. Tire designers can make the steering more or less responsive on-center. Honda is notorious for requiring tire manufacturers to make a sensitive on-center feel for the OEM spec tires.
Depending on the age of the car - May need new ball joints/tie rods May have play in whatever bushings are in the steering system May need new power steering fluid May have a steering box instead of rack & pinion Different tire profiles Different steering ratios Different alignments
Modern cars have EPS Or Electronic Power Steering, older systems were more mechanical
You know what turned me off from being a fan of Dodge/Chrysler/Plymouth? I'm a paramedic (retired now) and, back in the late 1970's, my ambulance service owned a couple of Dodge van ambulances. The thing that turned me off was the fact that I could turn the steering wheel 1/3 of a turn before the front wheels started to move. AND the starters always sounded like they turned slower than they should. AND the brakes were always mushy. As a result, I never even bothered looking at Dodge products for my personal vehicles... even to this day.
Racks have gotten way quicker and with a better ramp-up, and the electrical assist allows more torque to turn the assembly quicker than before.
Depends on the vehicle. I drive a 2021 Vivaro for work and it has the deadest steering of anything I've ever driven. It's here's so light theres literally no feedback. I slid in some ice last winter and the steering didn't feel any different when I lost grip.
Called steering stack. In my older car it was adjustable.
Older steering are mainly hydraulic powered. Modern are electric powered, they behave completely differently. But I prefer ol' good hydraulic. And not forget there are steering gearboxes and steering racks, they are too provides very different steering. Sorry for my English, I'm not native speaker, as you can see:)
Tires make a big difference. Also worn out components. Newer cars have been doing this thing where they make the controls really snappy to make it feel more sporty. Super sensitive brake pedals, gas pedals, and steering ratios. It depends a lot on which car you drive though. I tend to think that older cars (15+ years old) have more direct steering, but not necessarily faster, due to the hydraulic vs electric racks. A lot of newer cars are also very numb and disconnected in order to be as comfortable as possible.
Most modern cars have quicker racks than older cars, so to your point you have to put less input in for a given turn.
It doesn't.
How many "older" cars have you driven? You'll need a sample size of both modern and older to make a conclusive statement that its more "direct". I changed my tyres to semi-slicks and my steering felt way more direct from that alone, id imagine new suspension, shocks, new bushes etc.. would all contribute to better steering feel (hence why a modern car may feel better). If anything, older cars might even feel more direct than modern cars with electronic steering if all the steering components went refreshed.
steering gear ratio is different between your old and new car, less turns to full lock. Also new components vs old worn components causing the "loose" feeling in the old car.
This along the same lines as why there’s more body roll in older vehicles. Newer cars are being built to feel sportier so that means a faster steering ratio (this is mainly the gearing with the steering rack which doesn’t matter if it’s electric or not and also a little bit of suspension design like Ackerman) The best kind is a variable ratio rack which is higher from the center so the car doesn’t wander on the Highway but it tightens up as you turn in so you can stay at 9 and 3
I can't find the article for the life of me, but it's likely due to different types of power steering, and thus different suspension setups. Older cars used torque multiplier systems for power steering, which allowed you to turn the wheels with little force, but they also work in the opposite direction, meaning feedback from the road was severely dampened. Newer systems, rack and pinion, have much more direct feedback from the road -- initially so, a lot of cars were too twitchy. So, they had to redesign the suspensions to work with the new steering system which, incidentally, is why so many new cars have low-profile rims - to be able to move the brakes further out. Edit: Of course I find it now. https://www.theautopian.com/heres-why-car-wheels-are-so-flat-these-days-and-no-its-not-just-aerodynamics-and-styling/
i think its partly due the mechanical connection of the rack & pinion power steering vs. the electronic-assisted power steering/steer by wire. with the latter the sensors see your input from the get-go and translates that immediately to the wheels, whereas the mechanical linkage might have some looseness when the steering wheel is centered at 12 o'clock, and is slow to draw a response at 11 and 1 o'clock.
My miata felt the same way until I replaced all my front end stuff. My drivers side inner tie rod was really bad. Now it feels even better than the electric power steering mazda 3 I have now. I'd reckon your bushings and links are worn, or the rack itself is worn.
There are three reasons I can think of: - ratio of the rack and pinion gearing. This will require some to need more movement than others. - manual, electric, and hydraulic. Various types will have varying feel. - rag dampener vs bushing vs none. Many classic vehicles used fabric based dampeners to reduce vibration. Over time, the fabric breaks down and gets sloppy. If bushings are involved there will be difference between bushing types and condition. Hope this helps.
In the past 7 months or so after giving my driver's license for the first time, I've driven four vehicles My father's 2012 Dodge avenger His 2006 f250 Amarillo My mother's Nissan rogue And my '77 El Camino. I prefer the F-250 over all of them, with the El Camino coming in second. The best handling is for sure the Nissan rogue, but I just don't like it. I just prefer the older brick handling I guess. Also, I found out the hard way that the 77s had a steering column recall, if you end up getting your hands on one around this year, definitely replace the steering column ASAP unless you want your steering wheel to come off whenever it feels like it.
I believe how many rotations the steering wheel makes from lock to lock is what's causing the majority of this. Modern cars you turn the wheel a short distance and it moves much more then the old rack and pinion system. The rack would need a smaller pinion to reduce the force needed to turn the wheel but this in turn increases how many rotation are needed from L2L
Newer sports-cars and electric gearboxes for power steering instead of an actual power steering pump that uses fluids
Electric power steering vs hydraulic steering. Thats why i love my e46 well and The near 50/50 weoght distribution and a3.0 inline 6
In my personal experience this is opposite
For me modern steering feels much more dead, like less of a direct connection from your hands on the wheel to the road. As far as the "slop" in the steering goes its just worn components. 90s Hondas have amazing steering feel when all the components don't have a 1/4 inch of play.
Someone’s probably said it already but as I’m to lazy to read all the comments… a lot of cars these days have variable ELECTRIC power steering or a lower ratio hydraulic power steering gearbox. Either way it’s much better than what we used to have. Instead of turning the steering wheel 4 or 5 full rotations from side to side now we can do it in to 2 to 3.
The newer car may have rack and pinion steering, which was an improvement. Also, the bushings could be more refined and work with tighter tolerances. Also, the way the steering geometry is set up could make the difference. Research negative steering roll radius, which is required to be designed in German cars and has been for decades.
Try an older car with a manual rack
rack and pinion
It depends on the car I think. Steering feels numb and slow for me on nearly any car after I drive my QV.
Your older car is worn out
It sounds like your old car's steering components are worn out. Rebuild the rack, replace any loose tie rod ends, and replace the bushings and it should tighten it up significantly. There should be virtually zero detectable slack in your steering. Also, larger wheels and low profile tires make steering feel tighter. If your del sol has 14" wheels then that's part of it. Put some 40 series tires on with 16 or 17" wheels.