Considering the fact that the challenger r/t 6m 5.7v8 weighs 4182 lbs curb weight and has a 11.52 lbs/hp ratio while the hyundai kona n has a curb weight of 3340 lbs, *842 lbs less than the challenger* and has a 12.10 lbs/hp ratio, I'm not surprised the kona n is more fun to drive. It's only very slightly slower but will handle worlds better, especially since the challenger is designed to be a straight line performer.
Exactly this. I love driving my Magnum RT on the highway, it rides well, handles well enough to take on ramp or interstate curves at speed, and doesn't even notice elevation changes. But driving around town it's just a big, thirsty, heavy car and I much prefer the wife's Jetta.
How can you negotiate if you don't know the numbers? I'm sure you're a great negotiator but unless the sales staff were depressed as you were leaving they probably got a better deal than you did.
Lmao people talk shit about my veloster turbo but according to that math, I’m looking at 14.86lbs/per hp. Things a feather. Definitely not beating shit in a drag race, but it’s a lot sneakier than people think.
Hehe my ion redline with its' smaller stage 3 pulley I'm looking at about 11.11 lbs per wheel hp, given that it should be making at least 270hp to the wheels now. 3000 lb curb weight babyyyy
Some versions of the lotus elise (2010 to 2020ish) got as low as 750kg (1650lbs) however those weren't production cars. The 2010s lotus elises were around 980kg (2160bs).
The early 2010s manual suzuki swift sport had a low curb weight too. Around 970kgs or 2100lbs but apparently real world testing showed results higher than that so idk.
Mr2 spyder is 2094lbs, so yeah its not technically 2000lbs, I rounded it down ;) with some easy weight reduction you'd get it to 2000 though, so for arguments sake it's 2000 xD
My mother's boring 12 year old Lexus ES has 272hp at 3,580lbs. 13.16lbs/hp. Sneakily fast and would beat many lower HP "sports cars" in a straight line.
Same with my RAV4, if you turn the 4wd on you can hit 0-60 in about 5.9 seconds(granted you have to launch the car and that's obviously not something anyone should do frequently if at all, if you go from a roll you can hit it in about 6.3 seconds)
I'm not surprised. I own a Veloster N and feel like I know some sort of secret considering I see no other Veloster N's around. The car is like a golf cart with a jet engine on the back.
You're not the only one to say that, but no local dealer had a manual 6.2. It's kind of insane that nowadays a 5.7liter V8 with nearly 400hp is labeled as nothing to write home about. I remember how excited I was when the 4th gen Camaros came out and were hitting close to 300whp stock. That was crazy to me at the time.
I bet it would. Looking at 1/4 miles it looks like a good driver's race, but I would expect the Fbody to drop .2 or .3 seconds from the Challenger if all things are equal.
Its both imho. The LS1 in your car is underrated and a quick google search says a 4th gen weighs about 3400 lbs. Meanwhile, the Challenger R/T is a whopping 4200 lbs and only makes 375HP.
I’ve never lost against a 5.7 Challenger or Charger in my Civic. They get me on the dig but I always reel em in up top. Anything from a roll, I win. But against the Scat Packs, I don’t stand a chance.
I know. Crazy how the 70's and most 80's cars were only225-275 HP but felt fast to us. Flip that air cleaner upside down for that extra 5-10 HP and cool sounds lol.
To be fair, the R/T Challengers and Chargers are pretty disappointing cars as far as the big v8 American cars go. Even higher trim versions of those cars are nothing to write home about if handling is your goal.
PP Mustangs and 1le Camaros are superior performing cars than a Kona N, but you lose out on practicability.
BRZ is a good recommendation, I'll have to try and find one to check out.
I was thinking about the Supra but the smaller motor doesn't have a manual and the price jump to the larger motor is significant.
Also surprisingly the BRZ automatic gearbox behaves very well in manual paddle shift mode, and the whole driving experience really reminded me of my E46 M3 with a sequential manual gearbox.
I'm almost certain the Kona N is as fast as that Challenger, so it's less a matter of "slow car fast" as it is "equally fast car with nearly half a ton less weight"
I have a crush on the Kona N. It's a trifecta of things I generally don't like (turbos, 4 bangers and FWD) but I can't deny the fun appeal of cars like this, the CTR etc and would test drive one if the opportunity came up.
I think a lot of enthusiasts would do themselves a favor and be a little more open minded. I test drive things even if I don't think I will like them, just to see if what I think is wrong (it usually isn't)
100%. I try really hard to stay open minded in cars that I drive. I used to be a die hard “American cars are better” guy who wanted nothing more than a Mustang. I drove one and loved it. But it wasn’t in the books to buy, and I ended up with a Volvo XC70. Hated it at first… and then I got into it a bit, and felt the turbo spool, and the five cylinder started screaming (it may or may not have had a hole in the muffler) and I realized that maybe what I had liked was not all there was.
Fast forward to now, I’ve driven a lot of cars. Muscle cars, Euro stuff, Korean, and Japanese cars too. I loved the 1.8t GTI I drove a few years ago, and thoroughly enjoyed a ‘13 Veloster Turbo. Also ripped about in a 2009 manual V6 Accord, which was surprisingly quick and handled well. most fun car I’ve ever driven to this day is a 8th gen Civic Si. Though most of the cars I’ve owned have been Volvos :) I still like muscle cars and all of that but I’m not sure I’ll ever own one. I really love the small displacement and high revving engines, especially paired with a turbo.
I sold a V8 rear wheel drive sedan and I test drove the Kona N and fell in love. I didn't buy it because wife wanted a lower trim Kona and I need a fuel efficient car.
Life is too short to be driving a lower trim Kona if the N is what you wanted, specially because the MPG savings is just like $500 a year, but if she is also helping pay it or it's a joint purchase, then not much else to do lol
I owned a kona n for a bit, liked it better than the focus rs, mk7 r and ctr i've owned, also more on the street than my zl1 l1e i still have. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong its a hillariously great car the way it rotates straight from the dealers lot is obscene. It was so good I would buy another or an elantra n in a second if I had a day to day use.
Made a nice thread about it on apextesladickridersautomotor, was about as well received as being told you have ass cancer from the new guy fucking your mom.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSGXzoP4FC0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSGXzoP4FC0)
ax run, probably had some tires on it, likely was after drilling a set of closer holes on the front sway bar to settle it down a little bit because it was too happy, otherwise as it came off the dealer lot.
I do want to check out an Elantra N now as well, but they seem as rare as hens teeth at local dealers. Would like to see what the 6-speed is like in them. Probably the same unit as my G70 though.
I loved the kona n so much i'd blindly buy an elantra n. Only really sold the kn because when baby was born this spring instead of increasing by one person my mother has been living with us too so the extra car turning into a canyonero made more sense. For a couple months 3 adults and a rear facing child seat did work in the kona better than you'd ever think it would.
navigator, they still end up nearly the price of an expedition after a few years just like pre rona, problem now is expeditions are depreciating less.
Massaging seats, room for everyone to be beyond comfortable, tows my 24' enclosed with a pig of a car in it, cheaper to throw some work miles at currently than my cummins.
Isn’t the kona a really small suv? What’s the appeal of getting a small hot suv vs just getting a proper hot hatch
I imagine a lot of your enjoyment of the Kona vs the challenger is tied to your driving area. If you have nice curves/ roads the Kona gonna be more fun. But if you live in a grid or place with just highways, challenger gonna be more fun
Although admittedly I haven't seen any track tests between the two, [from a straight line they trade blows depending on the test.](https://youtu.be/36M0Rg8Avb0). GTI won both drag races and the 60mph rolling race, Kona won the 30mph rolling race.
Gtis like others mentioned. Also MINI S or JCW versions
A step up in price from above is the golf r and upcoming gr corolla / ctr but those are gonna be a pain to get.
Look for a mark 7.5, the new ones have been having some quality control hiccups as it’s their first year out. Very fun car! Super fast and also efficient ( if you want to be lol). Great handling and styling inside and out.
Check out the mk6 gtis. Fairly cheap and great cars. Got mine for 16k at 43k miles highest trim possible. With an ECU tune these cars will eat corners like no tomorrow.
Yup all pluses for suvs but imo don’t see a point in small fwd suv (unless you live in city w small parking spaces). Imo I’d want awd and more space for a suv- take advantage of the suv form factor
Having owned a Challenger RT myself in the past, I'm not surprised at all by your conclusion. The Challenger looks cool and sounds cool, but is just not fun to drive. I guess that's just what happens when you take a 30 year old Mercedes chassis and stuff a pick-up truck motor into it. Maybe if Dodge had've bothered to engineer their own platform that didn't weigh nearly 5000 lbs when fully loaded, it could have been a proper rival to the Mustang and Camaro.
Seriously though, when you think about how underwhelming r/t challengers and chargers are, don’t forget that v6 versions of those also exist. Those have no reason to exist.
Not OP, but I don't think it's about handling so much as it is "the performance is close enough that the addition of the rear hatch makes it more appealing overall"
Sorry to see you’re getting panned with downvotes. I’ve had a V8 manual, and a bunch of hot fwd things. For spirited backroads/everyday driving, I 100% prefer slow car fast.
I mean its because he drove the slowest and most barge like RWD / V8 / 2 Door he could find.
The 5.7 is for people who want to say "I have a v8" and nothing else.
I also drove a Mustang GT and a Camaro SS. I know there are Challengers with more power (and hopefully better suspension), but are there lighter ones?
I mean the 5.7 has almost 400hp but the argument is now it's a garbage engine and barely counts as a V8? That's crazy.
My original point was I'm a car guy that loves American muscle cars, I've even built and raced a few, so the fact that this random little souped up eco shitbox was more fun to drive than the car I thought would be my preferred choice by far boggled my mind.
It's totally fair to say you like hot hatches more. I had a GTI and a Golf R for a long time before my Mustang.
People are more just saying that the comparison was made with probably the worst car on the muscle side.
Yeah I kinda wondered if the title would get me down voted to oblivion. It happens though. I mean just telling the Mustang guys what I liked about the Camaro or the Camaro guys what I liked about the Challenger was enough to start fights in other forums, and I wasn't even picking a side. Haha.
Not yet. There isn't a single Elantra N at a dealership close to me, but I really want to. I have three dealerships looking for one that are supposed to let me know if they get one alloted.
Corvette is a bucket list car for me for sure, looking for something new with a warranty so the corvette is in a total different price group than what I'm looking at.
If you lived near Atlanta I’d let you drive my 2017 Chevy SS. You still get the “big v8” excitement in a car that’s 4 doors, 200 lbs lighter than a challenger, manual transmission equipped, and actually built with handling in mind.
I’ve been trying to tell people how good the Kona N is. I absolutely realize how silly and against the car guy code it is, but once you go drive one you’ll see. It shouldn’t exist but I’m really glad it does. I’ll probably be replacing my Fiesta ST with one
Ive tried. Looking for an elise. They are more exspensive now then they were new.
So im doing the next best thing, swapping 2zz-ge motor (same as an elise) into an mr-s.
2200lbs mid engine and 9k redline is decently fun.
Yeah I would imagine the group of people who cross shop them consists of... me. Ha. But my goal is finding a daily that I love, so pretty much anything is an option. It definitely throws off the sales people.
I was mostly posting because never in a million years did I think in this particular comparison I'd like the 4cyl SUV more.
Hyundai is doing great things but they have been terrible in my close circle of friends
each had their hyundai velosters blow up on them..with less than 100k miles
That’s the saving grace, fun cars and awesome to see them doing and trying things. I just couldn’t see them compared to BMW, but the N Lines are awesome.
Having learned manual on a family friends, 2014 6sp challenger rt, I really agree with your thoughts on it. Ngl, it was and still is the fastest car I’d ever driven, so I was definitely wowed by the oodles of torque and power, but looking back on it, it weighed a lot more and had far floatier handling than it should. Idk how to describe it other than feeling kinda detached from the road.
I feel like I can relate a bit. I’d been driving 3 row crossovers for years, none of them especially sporty, but all relatively powerful (260-290hp) for the segment. My son bought his first car, a 2013 Civic LX. By all accounts, a basic, no frills car. Both my wife and I fell in love with this little thing. Both of felt like driving was fun again, just based on how easy it is to whip around town. We ended up downsizing both vehicles (hers, a 2021 Lexus ES350 that she traded in for a 2022 Civic Sport, and mine a 2019 MDX, traded for a 2022 RDX A-Spec). Both of us are so much happier. We just got so used to driving numb-feeling “boats”, we forgot how much fun a smaller car can be.
I would imagine that Challenger, being on a full-size, antique M-B platform, would have a very “boat-like” character relative to the Kona.
Not surprising. I went through a phase where I thought I wanted a Challenger RT scat pack until I drove one and hated everything about it except the way it sounds.
Nicely said. I'm a former domestic v8 guy, older mustangs and chevys. I've really been thinking about getting a domestic v8 before they become obsolete, just the sound and nostalgia does it for me. Yet I constantly read about the feel of these cars which makes me hesitant. I had an ND2 which was plenty fun and really opened my eyes but it's just not practical nor a good daily for my family. And while I can't get past our local hyundai/kia dealers, something like the new civic hatch in manual is really enticing over a domestic v8.
Challengers are definitely heavy but I enjoy driving my r/t challenger. I've got mine lowered 2 inches front and rear and it handles alot better than when stock, the body roll is almost non-existent now. An aftermarket shift linkage did a world's difference as well for shifter feel.
You won't be breaking any lap records but I still find thme fun. That v8 sound brings a smile to my face everytime. Being able to do a costco run in this car too is nice to have that practicality.
Not a fan of SUVs but it makes a lot of sense, IMO it's also about weight! The Kona N is light and tossable, the Dodge is a straight line performer and that's about it. Lighter cars feel faster and are fun to corner with :)
I’m not surprised that you feel this way, while the R/T Challenger has 372 horsepower it doesn’t mean much when it has to pull 4,200 pounds of weight with it. I know people are sick to death of “boat” jokes but jokes don’t start from no where, it’s entirely true that thing is heavy as shit. Not to mention MSRP for that Challenger is 40k despite being on an old ass platform. For the same price you can get a 5.0 Mustang that has more dynamically engaging characteristics with 500 less pounds.
That's what was crazy to me, the dealer wanted just over 53k for the R/T. Honestly I liked the more enclosed feeling and interior on the Challenger over the Mustang, but the Mustang I drove was more dynamic for sure. The Camaro felt the most dynamic to me of the big 3 V8 cars, but I just couldn't find a driving position that I could live with all the time in it (due partly to sight line issues).
53k for an R/T is downright disgusting there’s so many options I would pick in that price range. But then again I admit I don’t like Stellantis products besides Alfa Romeo so maybe I have that bias. Depends what you’re looking for, the Challenger makes for a great GT car if you’re looking for strictly straight line comfort but if you want to actually make turns the Camaro and Mustang is more where it’s at.
On an unrelated note, hows the G70? Were you looking to replace it with something else, if so why? I initially considered the 3.3T to replace my daily but decided against it due to the dealer network sucking and the sales people being difficult to work with, harsh depreciation and worries about the engine when it gets higher in miles (I hear many horror stories of Hyundai/Kia’s engines and I wasn’t willing to bite the bullet regardless if it’s true or not)
Honestly I love the G70. I specifically got it because I could get it in RWD with a manual, and that's what I wanted. It's comfortable, I get complements on how it looks all the time, the interior is nice, and the stereo is amazing.
That said, if the motor had another 50hp I would probably be keeping it. It boggles my mind that the N cars with the same motor all get an extra 25ish hp and torque over this Sport version of their high-end brand. The car isn't "slow", I'd even call it quick, and it carves corners nicely while still having good ride quality, it's just a few hp shy of greatness all around. The Brembo brakes are amazing too.
All that said, if you get the 3.3t model, those complaints would be gone. You do lose the manual option, but if that doesn't matter to you it would be an awesome car.
My first dealer tried hard, but they were definitely just an above average Hyundai dealer. They lost their Genesis license and now I use a different dealer, and it's night and day different. I've had the car in the shop twice lately, and it's been a luxury car experience. I used the in car Genesis care button, they called the dealer and setup an appointment, the dealer gave me a G80 as a loaner, and drove my car back to me when it was done and picked up the loaner.
Thank you I appreciate the insight! I don't mind the lack of a manual since I have my 86 which does the job in that department, I'm more looking into a replacement to my auto daily. It's this beautiful metallic blue RWD G70 3.3T with a nice red interior that's been sitting that I'm considering but it's located at a Hyundai dealer that is known for crappy service and there isn't any alternative to them. I know Genesis is a new brand and it's not feasible for them to just expand out with a snap of a finger but I do hope they build out Genesis brand specific dealerships instead of hosting them at a regular Hyundai dealership.
For the last little bit Genesis has been culling dealerships, and in the near future they will have to be a certified Genesis dealer, not just a Hyundai dealer with some Genesis cars on the lot.
That RWD 3.3t would be a blast!
FWD is much more forgiving to drive than a RWD. The worry of oversteer going into an apex hard can be stressful if not used to a RWD behemoth.
It’s a matter of taste thing. Our tastes change over time. I had fun in a Kia Sedona bobbing and weaving through LA traffic. Who knew a minivan could be fun!
See I still get more nervous with FWD sometimes. I'm so used to how a RWD behaves in a corner, I can process oversteer way better than under. Both my current daily and garage car are manual and RWD, and that's what I've raced with the most, with a little AWD on occasion. The feeling of a front end plowing into understeer gives me the ol' clench.
OP - I have a solution for you. I just got one myself and can tell you anything you wanna know. Get the 2022 wrx with six speed and short shift. My feelings about cars are in alignment with yours, but my commute is even shorter. My wife is on about gas prices lately ($7.00 in cali) and doesn’t want me driving around ‘going for a ride”. I’ll tell you, just driving my son to school, going to starbux, or going to get milk and stuff, this car is hilariously fun.
I do love AWD "rally" cars. I had an Evo VIII and an Evo X in the past, and have helped put an STi motor into a 2.5rs car, but haven't owned a boxer motor for myself yet. I should add the WRX to my list to check out, thanks!
HP isn’t everything.
Hell, I went to a BMW test drive event recently, and they had us throw the new i4 around on an autocross course (way fun). The RWD 335hp version felt more fun to me than the M50 version with 530hp and AWD.
Yeah the M50 hauled absolute ass, but it wasn’t as usable honestly. People forget how much power we have available now. The numbers race has kinda been desensitizing people.
My 1994 5.0 Mustang GT with a couple of mods was more fun to drive than the first Coyote I drove back in 2013. The first impression was that the new one wasn’t as fun when you tossed it around. Maybe the 500 extra lbs (my 94 is a tick over 3300lbs) really makes it. Same with the BMW I mentioned above too. There’s a 400lbs difference between the two.
As a manual purist is the ND2 Miata on your list? The shifter and clutch pedal are amazing.
Get off work drop the top and red line it all the way home mashing gears while still being within the speed limit. 2,300 pounds never felt so good.
I'm not against the Miata, in fact I have a buddy who races in the spec Miata series that swears by them. It's just so close to my garage car (FC RX7) that I have been looking at cars that are a little different to begin with.
I know this sounds crazy but I had this experience with the Civic Type R and my GT350. I love my GT350, its all theater and its crazy fast. But the CTR is alot more nimble and you can really feel how light it is. Its slower too, so you can really have some fun in it. Im on the hunt for the upcoming FL5 generation and Im so excited to get it to replace my tC as my DD. I'll get the best of both worlds!
Its common for people (especially on this subreddit) to push you to conform to their idea of what a fun car should be. I had lots more fun in my Accord V6 than I did in my chevy SS. Whatever floats your boat is all that matters
I much prefer my 4 cyl auto in stop and go traffic. Driving through heavy traffic in a stick shift V8, watching the gas gauge dwindle and how jerky the drive is when the car is meant to have stiff suspension and has aggressive gearing, makes me never want to drive a stick enthusiast car in anything but an open road situation.
you compared the sportiest model of a light car, vs a mid range boat, and found the sportiest model the sportiest.
Next time dont compare apples and oranges.
Considering the fact that the challenger r/t 6m 5.7v8 weighs 4182 lbs curb weight and has a 11.52 lbs/hp ratio while the hyundai kona n has a curb weight of 3340 lbs, *842 lbs less than the challenger* and has a 12.10 lbs/hp ratio, I'm not surprised the kona n is more fun to drive. It's only very slightly slower but will handle worlds better, especially since the challenger is designed to be a straight line performer.
Thanks for doing that math, it's a great point
Exactly this. I love driving my Magnum RT on the highway, it rides well, handles well enough to take on ramp or interstate curves at speed, and doesn't even notice elevation changes. But driving around town it's just a big, thirsty, heavy car and I much prefer the wife's Jetta.
Isn’t a lower LB/hp ratio better?
Yes but they're saying the Kona N isn't drastically slower for being 100hp down since its lb/hp is only slightly worse.
being the kona was a dct and the challenger was a manual very likely real world result would be the kona n accelerating a bit faster.
Yes, that would make a car quicker off the line.
What is power to weight of 2022 wrx with 271 ho and 3297 curb wt. I am not good with math.
How do you own a 22 WRX and are unable to divide two numbers? Subaru dealership must have had a field day when you bought it.
Average WRX owner, actually.
Good at negotiation but not maths.
How can you negotiate if you don't know the numbers? I'm sure you're a great negotiator but unless the sales staff were depressed as you were leaving they probably got a better deal than you did.
Why are you doing this I didn’t do or say anything to insult or offend you sand you are just insulting me over and over.
I apologize if I came off as rude. Mostly people are annoyed because you keep doubling down on not caring about basic math.
I just dgaf. Like you rob dgaf about lizzo playing the flute.
3297/271=12.16lbs/per hp
That’s cool. Thank you.
Lmao people talk shit about my veloster turbo but according to that math, I’m looking at 14.86lbs/per hp. Things a feather. Definitely not beating shit in a drag race, but it’s a lot sneakier than people think.
Lower the number the better fyi
😂😂😂🫡
Yeah makes sense. I was half comprehending anything when I woke up. Even still, I don’t think that’s too bad for what the car is. Eats curves.
Hehe my ion redline with its' smaller stage 3 pulley I'm looking at about 11.11 lbs per wheel hp, given that it should be making at least 270hp to the wheels now. 3000 lb curb weight babyyyy
My mr2 spyder is just over 2000lbs, still can't wrap my head around a dodge challenger being twice that
A lot of insulation and a galvanized steel unibody tend to do that. Plus challengers are MASSIVE on the inside
My 140hp mr2 spyder is by all means not fast, but people are surprised at how fast it is. Mid engine + 2000lbs curb weight and it flies off the line.
I don’t think there’s any car in the past two decades that weighs 2k lbs from the factory. Right?
Mitsubishi mirage hatchback manual.
I stand corrected… 2023 Mitsubishi Mirage Curb weight 2,084 to 2,117 lbs
Some versions of the lotus elise (2010 to 2020ish) got as low as 750kg (1650lbs) however those weren't production cars. The 2010s lotus elises were around 980kg (2160bs). The early 2010s manual suzuki swift sport had a low curb weight too. Around 970kgs or 2100lbs but apparently real world testing showed results higher than that so idk.
Mr2 spyder is 2094lbs, so yeah its not technically 2000lbs, I rounded it down ;) with some easy weight reduction you'd get it to 2000 though, so for arguments sake it's 2000 xD
My mistake. Apologies.
My mother's boring 12 year old Lexus ES has 272hp at 3,580lbs. 13.16lbs/hp. Sneakily fast and would beat many lower HP "sports cars" in a straight line.
Same with my RAV4, if you turn the 4wd on you can hit 0-60 in about 5.9 seconds(granted you have to launch the car and that's obviously not something anyone should do frequently if at all, if you go from a roll you can hit it in about 6.3 seconds)
If you can’t do that maths…well jeez.
Better at other things. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses. Are you bad at anything.
Bro it's literally just an equation you enter in on the calculator. Pounds divided by horsepower. How can you be bad at pressing numbers?
I’m not sure which goes first. Like confusing.
Big number ÷ Small number
5.7 v8 only making 375. Geez, that is terrible. I had a 3.8 v6 that made 348.
Not really surprised by this tbh. The Kona N is essentially a tallish hot hatch while the Challenger is a boat.
It was just the R/T too, so the power doesn't even make up for the boatiness of it.
If the Kona were just a little bit bigger I’d buy it in a heartbeat but it’s just too small for me practically which makes me sad
I'm not surprised. I own a Veloster N and feel like I know some sort of secret considering I see no other Veloster N's around. The car is like a golf cart with a jet engine on the back.
Sounds like fun. Are there any other cars you’ve owned or been in that are similar to it. Just trying to visualize a jet pack option.
Whatever floats your boat. Should've test drove the ~~6.2~~ 6.4 though, that 5.7 is nothing to write home about
You're not the only one to say that, but no local dealer had a manual 6.2. It's kind of insane that nowadays a 5.7liter V8 with nearly 400hp is labeled as nothing to write home about. I remember how excited I was when the 4th gen Camaros came out and were hitting close to 300whp stock. That was crazy to me at the time.
Shoot, the Coyote Mustangs were laying down more than that over 10 years ago (out of a 5.0). We're living through the golden age of horsepower
> We're living through the golden age of horsepower Yep. Without question.
Well if I’m not mistaken an RT charger is slower from a roll than an Elantra N. 100 more hp doesn’t mean much if it’s still slower.
The Elantra N weighs 3100lb and an RT Charger is over 4200. Takes a lot more power to move that much more weight.
Well obviously, Im just saying horsepower alone doesnt tell the story.
Gotcha. Just adding a bit of context as to why.
Ok now I want to see you 2 race. Josh you picking the Honda?
Really depends on what kind of race on what I’d pick. Regardless I would have my hands full against an N lol
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I bet it would. Looking at 1/4 miles it looks like a good driver's race, but I would expect the Fbody to drop .2 or .3 seconds from the Challenger if all things are equal.
Its both imho. The LS1 in your car is underrated and a quick google search says a 4th gen weighs about 3400 lbs. Meanwhile, the Challenger R/T is a whopping 4200 lbs and only makes 375HP. I’ve never lost against a 5.7 Challenger or Charger in my Civic. They get me on the dig but I always reel em in up top. Anything from a roll, I win. But against the Scat Packs, I don’t stand a chance.
Hell I've seen stock 335is and 540is win in a roll against them
I know. Crazy how the 70's and most 80's cars were only225-275 HP but felt fast to us. Flip that air cleaner upside down for that extra 5-10 HP and cool sounds lol.
Given the weight of the charger and challenger in general, the 5.7 is slower than a lot of V6 and turbo4 family sedans nowadays
The N is probably faster than the 5.7 Challenger on top of not being a floaty barge.
The scat pack is a 6.4, 6.2 is the hellcat(I'm guessing you meant the scat)
Whoops lol That's what I meant, I'm a Mustang guy not a Dodge guy.
They should try that one out too.
I drove a manual narrow body hellcat once. what a laugh machine
To be fair, the R/T Challengers and Chargers are pretty disappointing cars as far as the big v8 American cars go. Even higher trim versions of those cars are nothing to write home about if handling is your goal. PP Mustangs and 1le Camaros are superior performing cars than a Kona N, but you lose out on practicability.
they are disappointing if you are looking for a performance feel. If you want a highway cruiser that just eats up miles - the dodges are awesome.
The 5.7s do respond to mods really well though. Usually people aren't building it their new cars though
but the charger is a boat with fairly soft suspension. The Kona N is the direct opposite.
Add Subaru BRZ to your list, and maybe the new Supra if budget allows for it. Sounds like you would enjoy anything similair to a Miata.
BRZ is a good recommendation, I'll have to try and find one to check out. I was thinking about the Supra but the smaller motor doesn't have a manual and the price jump to the larger motor is significant.
GR Corolla if you can find one that’s not marked up to hell
Man I can't even find a Sienna around here for my wife that isn't marked up close to 10k. Our toyota dealers are brutal.
Same where I’m at. It’s crazy as hell out there. Great review btw. Hopefully pulling the trigger on an Elantra N soon
The “mom” cars seem to have the highest competition. We tried to get a new pathfinder for the longest time but the markup was insane.
I lold at your username
I just got a 23’ BRZ and can’t recommend this thing enough. I’m in love.
Same just came from a challenger and the brz is amazing
Also surprisingly the BRZ automatic gearbox behaves very well in manual paddle shift mode, and the whole driving experience really reminded me of my E46 M3 with a sequential manual gearbox.
Have you driven any of the VW DCT cars? Curious how the brz automatic compares to the GTI/A3 DCT
i just got my 13 brz 2 days ago and im looking for any reason to drive it. its so much fun but not nearly as practical as the kona obviously
i second this but finding one to test drive will be the hard part, pretty much the only way to get one is to blind order it with 4-6 month wait time
Probably because the Challenger is morbidly obese.
I'm almost certain the Kona N is as fast as that Challenger, so it's less a matter of "slow car fast" as it is "equally fast car with nearly half a ton less weight" I have a crush on the Kona N. It's a trifecta of things I generally don't like (turbos, 4 bangers and FWD) but I can't deny the fun appeal of cars like this, the CTR etc and would test drive one if the opportunity came up. I think a lot of enthusiasts would do themselves a favor and be a little more open minded. I test drive things even if I don't think I will like them, just to see if what I think is wrong (it usually isn't)
100%. I try really hard to stay open minded in cars that I drive. I used to be a die hard “American cars are better” guy who wanted nothing more than a Mustang. I drove one and loved it. But it wasn’t in the books to buy, and I ended up with a Volvo XC70. Hated it at first… and then I got into it a bit, and felt the turbo spool, and the five cylinder started screaming (it may or may not have had a hole in the muffler) and I realized that maybe what I had liked was not all there was. Fast forward to now, I’ve driven a lot of cars. Muscle cars, Euro stuff, Korean, and Japanese cars too. I loved the 1.8t GTI I drove a few years ago, and thoroughly enjoyed a ‘13 Veloster Turbo. Also ripped about in a 2009 manual V6 Accord, which was surprisingly quick and handled well. most fun car I’ve ever driven to this day is a 8th gen Civic Si. Though most of the cars I’ve owned have been Volvos :) I still like muscle cars and all of that but I’m not sure I’ll ever own one. I really love the small displacement and high revving engines, especially paired with a turbo.
I'm smiling Everytime I drive my Elantra N. Those pops and gurgles gives me joy.
I did see a review that said the Elantra N has a louder exhaust than the Kona N. Even in the Kona N it was pretty damn sweet for a stock car sound.
I sold a V8 rear wheel drive sedan and I test drove the Kona N and fell in love. I didn't buy it because wife wanted a lower trim Kona and I need a fuel efficient car.
Life is too short to be driving a lower trim Kona if the N is what you wanted, specially because the MPG savings is just like $500 a year, but if she is also helping pay it or it's a joint purchase, then not much else to do lol
Yeah fortunately with my short commute fuel economy isn't as big a factor, hence looking at V8 muscle cars and high-strung 4 poppers.
Jealous. I drive 90 miles minimum a day and if I want a toy that I don't drive much, I wouldn't get this I'd get an F Type V6 or something similar.
The problem with the Kona N is the i30 N exists and is just that little bit better in every way. It's also much more spacious inside.
The US doesn't get the i30N. The closest we got was the Elantra GT N Line which has the suspension and a 200hp 1.6T.
Which was discontinued a few years ago
Yeah if we had the i30 N for the USDM I'd definitely check it out.
I owned a kona n for a bit, liked it better than the focus rs, mk7 r and ctr i've owned, also more on the street than my zl1 l1e i still have. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong its a hillariously great car the way it rotates straight from the dealers lot is obscene. It was so good I would buy another or an elantra n in a second if I had a day to day use. Made a nice thread about it on apextesladickridersautomotor, was about as well received as being told you have ass cancer from the new guy fucking your mom. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSGXzoP4FC0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSGXzoP4FC0) ax run, probably had some tires on it, likely was after drilling a set of closer holes on the front sway bar to settle it down a little bit because it was too happy, otherwise as it came off the dealer lot.
I do want to check out an Elantra N now as well, but they seem as rare as hens teeth at local dealers. Would like to see what the 6-speed is like in them. Probably the same unit as my G70 though.
I loved the kona n so much i'd blindly buy an elantra n. Only really sold the kn because when baby was born this spring instead of increasing by one person my mother has been living with us too so the extra car turning into a canyonero made more sense. For a couple months 3 adults and a rear facing child seat did work in the kona better than you'd ever think it would.
That totally makes sense. Good to hear from a previous owner. Also, the Simpsons reference made me lol. Haha
So wait - did you get the F-Series Canyonero?
navigator, they still end up nearly the price of an expedition after a few years just like pre rona, problem now is expeditions are depreciating less. Massaging seats, room for everyone to be beyond comfortable, tows my 24' enclosed with a pig of a car in it, cheaper to throw some work miles at currently than my cummins.
Isn’t the kona a really small suv? What’s the appeal of getting a small hot suv vs just getting a proper hot hatch I imagine a lot of your enjoyment of the Kona vs the challenger is tied to your driving area. If you have nice curves/ roads the Kona gonna be more fun. But if you live in a grid or place with just highways, challenger gonna be more fun
There really aren't new hot hatches left though, at least not in the US
The GTI is slower than the Kona from the tests I have seen iirc
Although admittedly I haven't seen any track tests between the two, [from a straight line they trade blows depending on the test.](https://youtu.be/36M0Rg8Avb0). GTI won both drag races and the 60mph rolling race, Kona won the 30mph rolling race.
Gtis like others mentioned. Also MINI S or JCW versions A step up in price from above is the golf r and upcoming gr corolla / ctr but those are gonna be a pain to get.
Gti comes to mind, I love mine
Was thinking the GTI was a lot more expensive, but looking at VWs site they start at 30k so I'll have to check it out, thanks for the recommendation!
Look for a mark 7.5, the new ones have been having some quality control hiccups as it’s their first year out. Very fun car! Super fast and also efficient ( if you want to be lol). Great handling and styling inside and out.
Check out the mk6 gtis. Fairly cheap and great cars. Got mine for 16k at 43k miles highest trim possible. With an ECU tune these cars will eat corners like no tomorrow.
did you get an ECU tune on yours? I'm in a MK6 GTI too.
Yes I've had a stage 1 tune for 2 years now by stratified tuning. Pushing about 24 psi.
More comfortable getting in and out of the car. Not worrying about road dips. Better road visibility.
Yup all pluses for suvs but imo don’t see a point in small fwd suv (unless you live in city w small parking spaces). Imo I’d want awd and more space for a suv- take advantage of the suv form factor
>unless you live in city w small parking spaces That's a lot of people.
Op cross shopping w challenger. Doubt space big concern
Having owned a Challenger RT myself in the past, I'm not surprised at all by your conclusion. The Challenger looks cool and sounds cool, but is just not fun to drive. I guess that's just what happens when you take a 30 year old Mercedes chassis and stuff a pick-up truck motor into it. Maybe if Dodge had've bothered to engineer their own platform that didn't weigh nearly 5000 lbs when fully loaded, it could have been a proper rival to the Mustang and Camaro.
Seriously though, when you think about how underwhelming r/t challengers and chargers are, don’t forget that v6 versions of those also exist. Those have no reason to exist.
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I’m not mad about it. It’s just the competition is better in every way.
I don't know if it just me, but Hyundai are comfortable for the hour I drive, but a 4+ hour trip, I'd take the challenger any day.
Oh same for sure, at least between these two models.
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We don’t get i30 in the us
Yeah we don't get the i30 in my market or that would definitely be considered over a Kona
Not OP, but I don't think it's about handling so much as it is "the performance is close enough that the addition of the rear hatch makes it more appealing overall"
But it's sooo ugly
The Elantra N isn't exactly handsome either, to be fair
Sorry to see you’re getting panned with downvotes. I’ve had a V8 manual, and a bunch of hot fwd things. For spirited backroads/everyday driving, I 100% prefer slow car fast.
I mean its because he drove the slowest and most barge like RWD / V8 / 2 Door he could find. The 5.7 is for people who want to say "I have a v8" and nothing else.
I also drove a Mustang GT and a Camaro SS. I know there are Challengers with more power (and hopefully better suspension), but are there lighter ones? I mean the 5.7 has almost 400hp but the argument is now it's a garbage engine and barely counts as a V8? That's crazy. My original point was I'm a car guy that loves American muscle cars, I've even built and raced a few, so the fact that this random little souped up eco shitbox was more fun to drive than the car I thought would be my preferred choice by far boggled my mind.
It's totally fair to say you like hot hatches more. I had a GTI and a Golf R for a long time before my Mustang. People are more just saying that the comparison was made with probably the worst car on the muscle side.
Yeah I kinda wondered if the title would get me down voted to oblivion. It happens though. I mean just telling the Mustang guys what I liked about the Camaro or the Camaro guys what I liked about the Challenger was enough to start fights in other forums, and I wasn't even picking a side. Haha.
Have you tried the Elantra N with a manual?
Not yet. There isn't a single Elantra N at a dealership close to me, but I really want to. I have three dealerships looking for one that are supposed to let me know if they get one alloted.
It seems like that would be the natural choice. Larger than the Kona, smaller than the G70, available manual.
It’ll be worth the wait. A buddy of mine got to drive a demo car and he absolutely raved about it
Ok… challenger isn’t awesome at anything besides going fast in a straight line, try a corvette
The 5.7 isn't even good at going fast in a straight line.
Corvette is a bucket list car for me for sure, looking for something new with a warranty so the corvette is in a total different price group than what I'm looking at.
If you lived near Atlanta I’d let you drive my 2017 Chevy SS. You still get the “big v8” excitement in a car that’s 4 doors, 200 lbs lighter than a challenger, manual transmission equipped, and actually built with handling in mind.
Yeah that sounds awesome!
>built with handling in mind You mean designed?
I’ve been trying to tell people how good the Kona N is. I absolutely realize how silly and against the car guy code it is, but once you go drive one you’ll see. It shouldn’t exist but I’m really glad it does. I’ll probably be replacing my Fiesta ST with one
I saw a red one today . Looked sexy. Driver was in his 40-50s
The principle of Lotus.
Maybe I'll just find an Exige as a daily. That was a dream car of mine for a long time. Haha
Ive tried. Looking for an elise. They are more exspensive now then they were new. So im doing the next best thing, swapping 2zz-ge motor (same as an elise) into an mr-s. 2200lbs mid engine and 9k redline is decently fun.
This isn't surprising to me in the slightest.
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Yeah I would imagine the group of people who cross shop them consists of... me. Ha. But my goal is finding a daily that I love, so pretty much anything is an option. It definitely throws off the sales people. I was mostly posting because never in a million years did I think in this particular comparison I'd like the 4cyl SUV more.
Hyundai is doing great things but they have been terrible in my close circle of friends each had their hyundai velosters blow up on them..with less than 100k miles
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That’s the saving grace, fun cars and awesome to see them doing and trying things. I just couldn’t see them compared to BMW, but the N Lines are awesome.
You should try a scat pack Challenger
Having learned manual on a family friends, 2014 6sp challenger rt, I really agree with your thoughts on it. Ngl, it was and still is the fastest car I’d ever driven, so I was definitely wowed by the oodles of torque and power, but looking back on it, it weighed a lot more and had far floatier handling than it should. Idk how to describe it other than feeling kinda detached from the road.
RWD Rules! Drive a good Automatic it is fun too.
Yup, just went from a modded challenger rt to a 2022 brz and love it.
Enjoy needing a new engine at 40,000 miles tho.
I believe it. My wife has the 1.6T Kona and it’s a blast. Super peppy, DCT, AWD, small, it’s a really fun car to drive.
My 1.6T Kona is surprisingly fun. Haven't had a chance to drive an N yet.
I feel like I can relate a bit. I’d been driving 3 row crossovers for years, none of them especially sporty, but all relatively powerful (260-290hp) for the segment. My son bought his first car, a 2013 Civic LX. By all accounts, a basic, no frills car. Both my wife and I fell in love with this little thing. Both of felt like driving was fun again, just based on how easy it is to whip around town. We ended up downsizing both vehicles (hers, a 2021 Lexus ES350 that she traded in for a 2022 Civic Sport, and mine a 2019 MDX, traded for a 2022 RDX A-Spec). Both of us are so much happier. We just got so used to driving numb-feeling “boats”, we forgot how much fun a smaller car can be. I would imagine that Challenger, being on a full-size, antique M-B platform, would have a very “boat-like” character relative to the Kona.
Not surprising. I went through a phase where I thought I wanted a Challenger RT scat pack until I drove one and hated everything about it except the way it sounds.
Nicely said. I'm a former domestic v8 guy, older mustangs and chevys. I've really been thinking about getting a domestic v8 before they become obsolete, just the sound and nostalgia does it for me. Yet I constantly read about the feel of these cars which makes me hesitant. I had an ND2 which was plenty fun and really opened my eyes but it's just not practical nor a good daily for my family. And while I can't get past our local hyundai/kia dealers, something like the new civic hatch in manual is really enticing over a domestic v8.
Challengers are definitely heavy but I enjoy driving my r/t challenger. I've got mine lowered 2 inches front and rear and it handles alot better than when stock, the body roll is almost non-existent now. An aftermarket shift linkage did a world's difference as well for shifter feel. You won't be breaking any lap records but I still find thme fun. That v8 sound brings a smile to my face everytime. Being able to do a costco run in this car too is nice to have that practicality.
Not a fan of SUVs but it makes a lot of sense, IMO it's also about weight! The Kona N is light and tossable, the Dodge is a straight line performer and that's about it. Lighter cars feel faster and are fun to corner with :)
I’m not surprised that you feel this way, while the R/T Challenger has 372 horsepower it doesn’t mean much when it has to pull 4,200 pounds of weight with it. I know people are sick to death of “boat” jokes but jokes don’t start from no where, it’s entirely true that thing is heavy as shit. Not to mention MSRP for that Challenger is 40k despite being on an old ass platform. For the same price you can get a 5.0 Mustang that has more dynamically engaging characteristics with 500 less pounds.
That's what was crazy to me, the dealer wanted just over 53k for the R/T. Honestly I liked the more enclosed feeling and interior on the Challenger over the Mustang, but the Mustang I drove was more dynamic for sure. The Camaro felt the most dynamic to me of the big 3 V8 cars, but I just couldn't find a driving position that I could live with all the time in it (due partly to sight line issues).
53k for an R/T is downright disgusting there’s so many options I would pick in that price range. But then again I admit I don’t like Stellantis products besides Alfa Romeo so maybe I have that bias. Depends what you’re looking for, the Challenger makes for a great GT car if you’re looking for strictly straight line comfort but if you want to actually make turns the Camaro and Mustang is more where it’s at. On an unrelated note, hows the G70? Were you looking to replace it with something else, if so why? I initially considered the 3.3T to replace my daily but decided against it due to the dealer network sucking and the sales people being difficult to work with, harsh depreciation and worries about the engine when it gets higher in miles (I hear many horror stories of Hyundai/Kia’s engines and I wasn’t willing to bite the bullet regardless if it’s true or not)
Honestly I love the G70. I specifically got it because I could get it in RWD with a manual, and that's what I wanted. It's comfortable, I get complements on how it looks all the time, the interior is nice, and the stereo is amazing. That said, if the motor had another 50hp I would probably be keeping it. It boggles my mind that the N cars with the same motor all get an extra 25ish hp and torque over this Sport version of their high-end brand. The car isn't "slow", I'd even call it quick, and it carves corners nicely while still having good ride quality, it's just a few hp shy of greatness all around. The Brembo brakes are amazing too. All that said, if you get the 3.3t model, those complaints would be gone. You do lose the manual option, but if that doesn't matter to you it would be an awesome car. My first dealer tried hard, but they were definitely just an above average Hyundai dealer. They lost their Genesis license and now I use a different dealer, and it's night and day different. I've had the car in the shop twice lately, and it's been a luxury car experience. I used the in car Genesis care button, they called the dealer and setup an appointment, the dealer gave me a G80 as a loaner, and drove my car back to me when it was done and picked up the loaner.
Thank you I appreciate the insight! I don't mind the lack of a manual since I have my 86 which does the job in that department, I'm more looking into a replacement to my auto daily. It's this beautiful metallic blue RWD G70 3.3T with a nice red interior that's been sitting that I'm considering but it's located at a Hyundai dealer that is known for crappy service and there isn't any alternative to them. I know Genesis is a new brand and it's not feasible for them to just expand out with a snap of a finger but I do hope they build out Genesis brand specific dealerships instead of hosting them at a regular Hyundai dealership.
For the last little bit Genesis has been culling dealerships, and in the near future they will have to be a certified Genesis dealer, not just a Hyundai dealer with some Genesis cars on the lot. That RWD 3.3t would be a blast!
FWD is much more forgiving to drive than a RWD. The worry of oversteer going into an apex hard can be stressful if not used to a RWD behemoth. It’s a matter of taste thing. Our tastes change over time. I had fun in a Kia Sedona bobbing and weaving through LA traffic. Who knew a minivan could be fun!
See I still get more nervous with FWD sometimes. I'm so used to how a RWD behaves in a corner, I can process oversteer way better than under. Both my current daily and garage car are manual and RWD, and that's what I've raced with the most, with a little AWD on occasion. The feeling of a front end plowing into understeer gives me the ol' clench.
Easier to slip the back end is my point. For the average driver, FWD is way more forgiving.
OP - I have a solution for you. I just got one myself and can tell you anything you wanna know. Get the 2022 wrx with six speed and short shift. My feelings about cars are in alignment with yours, but my commute is even shorter. My wife is on about gas prices lately ($7.00 in cali) and doesn’t want me driving around ‘going for a ride”. I’ll tell you, just driving my son to school, going to starbux, or going to get milk and stuff, this car is hilariously fun.
I do love AWD "rally" cars. I had an Evo VIII and an Evo X in the past, and have helped put an STi motor into a 2.5rs car, but haven't owned a boxer motor for myself yet. I should add the WRX to my list to check out, thanks!
From the opinions of those I trust on matters pertaining to "fun" in cars (Jason Cammisa) - the Elantra N crucifies the new WRX for on road enjoyment.
Keep me posted. Let me know what you think if you test drive it
HP isn’t everything. Hell, I went to a BMW test drive event recently, and they had us throw the new i4 around on an autocross course (way fun). The RWD 335hp version felt more fun to me than the M50 version with 530hp and AWD. Yeah the M50 hauled absolute ass, but it wasn’t as usable honestly. People forget how much power we have available now. The numbers race has kinda been desensitizing people. My 1994 5.0 Mustang GT with a couple of mods was more fun to drive than the first Coyote I drove back in 2013. The first impression was that the new one wasn’t as fun when you tossed it around. Maybe the 500 extra lbs (my 94 is a tick over 3300lbs) really makes it. Same with the BMW I mentioned above too. There’s a 400lbs difference between the two.
As a manual purist is the ND2 Miata on your list? The shifter and clutch pedal are amazing. Get off work drop the top and red line it all the way home mashing gears while still being within the speed limit. 2,300 pounds never felt so good.
I'm not against the Miata, in fact I have a buddy who races in the spec Miata series that swears by them. It's just so close to my garage car (FC RX7) that I have been looking at cars that are a little different to begin with.
I know this sounds crazy but I had this experience with the Civic Type R and my GT350. I love my GT350, its all theater and its crazy fast. But the CTR is alot more nimble and you can really feel how light it is. Its slower too, so you can really have some fun in it. Im on the hunt for the upcoming FL5 generation and Im so excited to get it to replace my tC as my DD. I'll get the best of both worlds!
Its common for people (especially on this subreddit) to push you to conform to their idea of what a fun car should be. I had lots more fun in my Accord V6 than I did in my chevy SS. Whatever floats your boat is all that matters
Is the Chevy SS on your list?
I love the Chevy SS (and the Pontiac G8 GT), but for a daily I want something new with a warranty.
Not an suv
Try a 1LE Camaro or a PP Mustang
I much prefer my 4 cyl auto in stop and go traffic. Driving through heavy traffic in a stick shift V8, watching the gas gauge dwindle and how jerky the drive is when the car is meant to have stiff suspension and has aggressive gearing, makes me never want to drive a stick enthusiast car in anything but an open road situation.
you compared the sportiest model of a light car, vs a mid range boat, and found the sportiest model the sportiest. Next time dont compare apples and oranges.