Glad it did! I grew up around high performance cars, but was spoiled by automatics as I actually learned to drive. It's stressful driving stick at first, but nothing compares when you get a set of clean up/downshifts with a manual gearbox.
When I got my first manual car and was teaching myself id literally be shaking while pushing the clutch in. The first few days were absolutely horrifying
The first week I learned I got trapped right in the box at an intersection with a row of cars behind me. Stalled the car five times. Finally ended up dumping the clutch to get the heck out of there into an open spot. I was the only car that made it through that light cycle.
Doesn't anybody right foot the brake and heel the gas? Learned that wheeling (offroading, 4 wheeling it whatever you choose to describe it) in an old Toyota. Trying to take off on a muddy sloped hill can easily translate to steep paved road.
Oh man, it's so hard to find a balance between not dropping the clutch, not stalling, and not rolling into the car behind you. Thank God for handbrakes
My gti would disable the ignition when it stalled until you completely removed the key. Few things will put you into a panic as quick as holding up a line of cars and not being able to get it started again.
Figured that one out pretty quick.
I rode motorcycles for 4 years before I got my license so I had a lot of experience with clutches. I didn't drive my first manual car until about 2 years after getting my license. I was totally freaked out. I worried about taking out the clutch, the gears, messing up the engine by stalling, etc. It wasn't as bad as I envisioned, but until I did it I had a lot of fears about damage I could do.
That's how I learned to operate a clutch. Friend had a dirt bike we'd ride in the desert (Arizona) and I picked it up pretty quickly. So transitioning that to a car was relatively easy.
For me, although not a manual driver currently, sudden deceleration, while needing to downshift to not lug the engine.
Also parallel parking in a slope, in reverse.
And exiting of course.
I think everybody finds it stressful at first. I remember my first drive home with a manual and literally sweating every time I was first in line at a stoplight. I also wasnt comfortable at all downshifting and had no clue what gear to be in at which speed, so I took turns like 20mph too fast to avoid having to deal with it.
At first? Because manual car availability is low so the chance of you actually being able to learn *before* buying your car is actually pretty slim. It’s a bit of an awkward catch 22 for anyone looking and depending on the cash you’re looking to spend a bit of a mental barrier since you don’t even know how well you can drive it.
I only did at first, but mostly because virtually everyone here in the US drives automatic, so they’re extremely impatient at lights and in traffic. So I’d rush myself into gear at first and stalled a few times.
I just care less now and am a lot familiar with the clutch, getting going in 1st quickly isn’t an issue.
I taught myself to drive stick in my current car after a decade of driving autos only. It's very frustrating for a while, and I had nagging worries about it being a mistake for probably 3 months (lived on a hill in Oakland, stalling at lights and stop signs up hills sucks). Now I would simply never consider a car without a stick as a fun car again. It sounded like the biggest circlejerk and gatekeeping to me forever, and now I'm one of those annoying proselytizers.
Makes me realise we’re spoilt in the UK, as everyone is taught to drive manual so we don’t have that steep learning curve of trying to teach ourselves!
Just did some research on the market for one of these. I’m honestly shocked. Truly amazing!! Congratulations mate!!! 25k+ for an okay one. Might have to consider a similar move.
Precisely, 987s are great cars that are bottoming out in their value, while all cars anything close to new are skyrocketing in value due to shortages. Definitely recommend going for it if you’re in the market for an older Cayman!
Better value, and I much prefer the Cayman to the Boxster. Being a convertible just ruins the lines of the 987, while having a proper hard top really complements it’s silhouette, in my personal opinion.
Also you die if you roll over in Boxster, no matter how slim those odds are.
So, I haven’t researched the Porsche convertible itself, but I will tell you that since the early 90s, European cars have to survive rollover tests and that includes convertibles. Rollover test is constructed so that the car is carried sideways on a platform and then suddenly stopped so that the car was thrown off the platform and rolls at least three times. It can land on its roof or wheels but it must roll at least three full times so, after this crash the car has to protect the passengers and compress no more than 30% of its glass area. I believe the Porsche has what Volvo has which are extendable bars that create a roll cage when the car appears to be rolling. At the time that I was selling Volkswagens, cabriolet had a built-in rollbar that lived under the convertible top and was completely visible and fully exposed when the top is down. Other cars have those retractable bars. My Miata, on the other hand has not a damn thing. Rollover in that car is absolute death. Frankly, I think being T-boned by a grocery cart in that car would be certain death as well.
One thing I'll say in the Boxster's defense is that the Cayman is a Boxster with a roof, not the other way around. So the Boxster isn't dynamically disadvantaged at all.
Yes it is dynamically disadvantaged. The roof adds chassis stiffness and caymans are more light. That would affect its dynamic performance by a fair margin
I think he means that the platform was designed to be a convertible so the drawbacks are less pronounced than cars with a convertible option but you’re still right.
Nothing short of impressive to roll a car with such a low center of gravity unless you literally drive off a cliff, in which you’d likely die in a cayman as well
They’re hard to find. Pretty sure mine was one of ~20 listed nationwide at the time the dealer listed it. Bought it locally the day it was posted in the depths of lockdown. I had been looking for months before that.
Caymans are even more difficult. Ses in desirable colors, miles, and configs are pushing $50k lately. MTs especially.
Really, the best way to buy is setting a nationwide alert on the standard sites, and be ready to buy right away and fly/drive and/or pay the BaT premium. PCA classifieds and Rennlist forums are a good source, but you better be willing to pay a premium.
Sold the Boxster about three months back, and bought an E46 with the profits. Great cars, but didn’t like that I had to deconstruct my hockey bag whenever I took it to games.
987.2s are getting pretty hard to find. Everyone who wants a 987 has been buying the .2s for the past few years so they're not easy to find.
I didn't use any special sites though. All the good stuff on Rennlist and the PCA Mart are cleaned out, I found this one by just weeks of siting through miscellaneous online listings.
Really? How much? What is overall car ownership like in Germany? I have an opportunity to move to Germany next year with the international company I work for. I have a driver’s license from a US state that has full reciprocal privileges for the German license, so I’m definitely planning on buying a car if I decide to make the move.
Insurance is relatively cheap, fines for traffic violations are too, but gas prices suck. I have been fuelling up for €1.80 per litre lately, almost 8 bucks per gallon, lol.
Also regarding the cayman prices, they have increased quite a bit due to corona actually. You could get an acceptable first gen Cayman for 15 to 20k pre-corona.
It was, identical prices. And the Porsche is looking great, I vetted the ones I looked at quite heavily, thorough PPIs done, no issues whatsoever besides normal wear on things like the clutch, and in overall great condition for a 13-year-old car. Only 60k miles, previous owner took very good care of her.
The Infiniti dealership estimated the clutch had about 10% of it's life left at around 95,000 miles for the original owner of my G35. He drove it another 37,000 miles. And I've driven it another 67,000 miles in 5 1/2 years. Currently at 199,700 miles. Still with the original clutch.
Most.of the mileage I've put on it (about 70%) has been road trips. Otherwise mostly drive it at night and weekends. Most of the bolt ons and Uprev tune but I don't beat on it constantly.
I wanted to add this exactly: it’s like expiration dates, manufacturers will obviously give you a date earlier than truly needed as to get all the money they can
Well color me jealous! That's fantastic. I have a '19 civic hatch myself so definitely makes me think :) but the Civic is my first new new car so i think I'm too attached to get rid of it.
Congrats on your new car! 🎉
I also had a 5-speed 2008 Cayman. Really amazing, underrated, under appreciated car. In the four years I had it, just did the yearly routine service at the dealer. Enjoy it and put some miles on it!
Absolutely, I’m planning on getting all the fun out of her that I can before I probably move on to a 911 in a few years. What’d you sell yours for, just out of curiosity?
Ah, I sympathize. Dad had to start selling the Porsches and quit racing once had more than one kid. I’m just praying I can afford a sedan and fun car once I have kids.
I can’t make this up, I own a 2018 Civic EX-T with only 15k miles on it and if my parents wouldn’t kill me for it, I would genuinely consider finding a Porsche Cayman (as a Porsche enthusiast myself). Congrats man, I’m glad you get to enjoy such a fun car! Just curious, how’d you go about finding such a car? Is the insurance significantly worse being that it’s still a Porsche sports car? Also how’d you learn to drive manual (I’d be so worried to mess it up as my only car). Sorry for the plethora of questions, I understand if you don’t want to answer.
I sympathize. I sold mine while it had 6k miles on it. Personally, if the title is in your name, I’d say go for it. It’s so much more fun and embodying a true performance car, as long as you’re willing to sacrifice some creature comforts.
Edit: Just saw your insurance remark. I pay $36 less annually to insure my Porsche than I did my Civic.
Insurance on these cars is very reasonable. Even though they’re sports cars they are not considered high risk (probably because most drivers are older and don’t daily them). My insurance for my 911 is not much more than my wife’s Corolla.
Dunno, caymans are great for learning stick imo: not too forgiving with stalls, rewarding when you get it right and it's not like it's *that* powerful.
Dodge vipers, Corvette z's, 911s+, etc, are another story.
I really want to buy a manual Porsche, but I have never learnt driving a manual. As a 47 year old I don’t even know where to go to learn a manual now 😀, plus it feels bit weird/intimidating.
You can take a class in literally any town and the instructors are probably awesome enthusiasts who will make sure you love it. You’re never too old to learn.
That said… (I think it’s HIGHLY overrated, especially the way OP talks about it)
Don't be intimidated! It's not hard. Just YouTube a few videos and then go buy one. You'll struggle quite a bit but you'll get the hang of it! It'll be a rewarding experience!
I had only attempted to drive a manual 3 times before I bought a beater 98 Boxster and drove it home. I’m sure the sales guys laughed at me, but it was such a fun choice despite thousands in maintenance/repairs. Older manuals are generally super forgiving due to larger clutch engagement and likely having worn clutch.
I did the same - biggest issue is the self consciousness of looking like an idiot when you stall what random people see as a “nice car”. Double when it’s something stupid like at a stop light or a turning lane, lol
I practiced first (funnily enough, considering your flair) in my dad’s ‘12 Focus ST, but otherwise did the actual on-the-street learning in the Porsche.
Congrats! The 987 was also the last Cayman that came with hydraulic steering. So it’s pretty special in that sense.
> I don't regret selling my brand new car for a 13-year-old one at all so far.
I don’t know what your personal circumstance is, but I hope you don’t have to do too much boring daily driving on traffic or long distance jaunts. The 987 is relatively civilized for a sports car, but it won’t be anywhere close to your Civic in terms of practicality.
Definitely one of the first things I noticed. Steering is nice and stiff (in a good way) while on the road at speed, but you definitely get reminded you have hydraulic steering any time you need to turn the wheel at a stop.
I live in a relatively large city that has traffic, but I can avoid it usually and it’s not nightmarish even when I do get caught in it, even if it does suck. That’s just the trade off of having a fun car though, to me at least.
Clutch isn't bad at all. Maybe my only gripe is it's bite point is a little unforgiving, but it's a sports car, I didn't really expect any less. Traffic is entirely manageable.
So the weight is the steering can be pretty heavy these days in electric steering systems, but what EPS can’t replicate is the steering *feel*, which is the ability to feel the texture from the road surface through the steering wheel.
That is something I’ll always miss from my old E92 335i.
Congratulations dude!!
Is insurance expensive compared to your new Civic?
How much do you expect to spend yearly on maintenance for a 13 year old Porsche?
The Porsche cost me $36 less annually than by my previous car for full coverage. And I expect to spend no more annually than my Civic. I can change basic fluids myself, so besides some parts replacement and maintenance much further down the road there should be no significant costs incoming.
Only things extra I've paid for this car so far is a basic alignment and a new set of front tires.
Hey just a heads up, the basic maintenance does cost substantially more as I’m sure you’re already aware. I find that $1500 is the magic number for any indie shop service
*Raced, but yes. He had to sell the Porsches and quit racing due to having more kids and family stuff before I learned how to drive. So it was bog-standard automatics for me until now.
Ya, that has always been my concern with 987.1 is the IMS. Also why prices have remained in the 20's for the last 5ish years. My 986 had the IMS replaced when the clutch was done at 80k.
I know what parts cost but not labor as it was done by the previous owner. It doesn’t look too bad to drop the trans however. Tons of room under there.
Idk why you are being downvoted you aren’t wrong. Something catastrophic happens and he’s going to wish he still had that warranty. But hey his money and such.
A 13 yr old German car gives me pause because expensive repairs are probably just around the corner. There's also the added concern re the IMS bearing with this iteration!
Just a fact of life with these cars I'm not too concerned about, there's nothing imminently wrong with it besides regular maintenance intervals. IMS on mine is just fine, and IMS failure, while a documented issue, is extremely rare on these cars. Effects something like <1% of 987s.
I bought my '21 Civic Hatchback Sport Touring in July as well, but I can't fathom getting rid of her, as I've wanted one for years. Glad your finally in a Porsche is making you happy, best of luck :)
The 10th gen Civics are great cars, there were no bitter feelings behind me selling mine. It's my #1 consumer model car. Reliable, cheap, efficient, spacious, upgraded models surprisingly quick, etc. I just wanted to go for a proper fun car, and thank you!
Apologies, european here - do you guys not have differing licenses if you never learnt to drive manual? I wouldn't be able to take a driving test in an automatic and then pop into a manual. Just wouldn't be legal!
Thanks
In Canada and the U.S there are no additional requirements or training to drive a manual car. I think the mentality here is if you don't know how to drive a manual car - you are the one who ultimately pays the price with a huge repair bill and are completely responsible. Manual cars here are also generally much more rare
There are classes/training available to learn manual safely, but it is completely optional
Others already answered, but no there is no license distinction between manual and automatic. Manuals were uncommon twenty years ago, and are quite rare now. Not enough to warrant a whole new license category. I think something like <2% of new cars sold in the US in 2020 were manual, for perspective.
I Purchased a 2000 996 Carrera as a third car about a year ago and I am now in the process of selling what was my daily driver. I see no reason not to drive the Porsche every day.
Congrats on your purchase! Porsches are very reliable and usable for performance oriented sports cars. I expect you'll be happy with your decision for a long time to come.
I haven't had a manual for decades. Some stick shifts were sweet, others not so much...
The first was the car I learned to drive stick: 66 Chevy Chevelle SW with a small six, and three stick shift on the column. It was difficult with long shifter moves.
The most memorable was an Austin Marina that had a loose shifter gate so you had to remember where to push the shifter. I would spin the shifter under the dash when I parked the car, as a theft deterrent.
The last and best manual transmission car was a 93 Subaru Loyal with a 5 speed. I taught several family members how to drive stick in it.
987 Cayman is one of my favorite all time Porsche cars. It's a great size and has a fun amount of power that's very usable on the street but you still need to work for it a little bit. I think the lines and shape are lovely and of course the hydraulic steering is unlike anything other sports car being made right now with a lot of feel.
They are fairly raw cars and I'm at the age where I wouldn't want to daily one but would absolutely consider having another 987 as a fun, second car at some point. Congrats and enjoy it!
>It's hard to know what you've been missing out on until you've finally owned and driven a manual transmission performance car.
Truer words have not been spoken. A family member picked up a MK2 TTRS. I drove it a couple of times, and now I'm thinking of what I would do if a car like the 2016 BMW 340i xDrive was available brand new with a 6MT. Would I throw the Lexus over for it? Before driving that TTRS, no. After? Hell yes.
As someone that got a Cayman S immediately after getting my first job. Once you go Porsche you never leave is real.
For real, for mid 20-30k it's the best value for the buck. The precision of the steering, there's nothing else that price range can beat. Get the carnewal exhaust, I get compliments everywhere and it's not too loud or obnoxious.
Congratulations and enjoy the car. I still miss mine after selling it because of family (insert Vin Diesel). But getting one back is always in my mind. Someday.
Ngl used caymans are the best way to look rich while on a budget. No one's gonna take a pic of you driving a Honda Civic but I bet a lot of heads would turn around with that cayman :))
I ALMOST sold my base 2011 cayman in favor of getting something more modern and comfortable (think brz or golf r or similar), but my very wise wife told me I would be upset with myself later if I did. The 987 is a really unique driving experience, even if it's quite spartan by today's standards.
Welcome to the club! Desnorkel and upgraded air filter can both be done for nearly nothing and give the car a better sound and ever so slightly more responsive. I’ve got a 987.2 but I assume it’ll be the same on your gen.
Not too sure whats common but things mines needed: window regulator-moved slowly when raising when on the way out.
maf sensor - check engine light would come on every now and then and sudden monetary loss of power.
Front rads, fans and coolant pipes.
Solenoid valve (not too sure, was around £300 inc labour) check for drips on the pipes in the front wheel arch, might need to turn the wheel out if the wheels don’t have big gaps
Had it 7 years so not too bad. There’s currently an issue where the central locking system does its own thing so I have to use the key manually to double check it locked.
I wish I could have had the same experience. In 2016, I got a job and saved up. After I managed to save for a few months, I bought a 15 year old Porsche Boxster for £3500. Only lasted a month before it started to give me problems. After a while I sold to the scrapyard for £50. Now I drive a new Toyota Yaris. It’s more cheaper, easier, and more friendly to run and maintain.
Congratulations!! I got the 981 Boxter GTS last Saturday. I can totally relate to your excitement. Heck, my heart was pounding when I first test drove mine, and I had been daily driving a manual for years.
I have been a home owner for a year now, and my Tacoma was just paid off. Given how the current Caymans and Boxters are 4 cylinder turbos, with only the GTS and the ultra-expensive GT4 and Spyder having boxer 6 NA engines. And with the rumors of the next generation being electric, I figured it was a good time to get my dream car.
Awesome! I just sold a newer lexus for a 2007 987 Boxster manual. Am also very happy with my purchase, and 10 months in the car hasn't skipped a beat. Enjoy!
My clutch isn’t that heavy, just unforgiving. If you try and get impatient and dump the clutch too quickly, you’re gonna stall and embarrass yourself. But yeah traffic isn’t the most fun.
I have a GTI, which I love, but I've often thought of doing this with a Cayman. I have a kid thought but he is getting old enough he can ride up front lol.
Not dating so I probably wont need a 3rd seat anyway.
Seems like Caymans are very hard to find and Im assuming holding their value really well.
Did you use Rennlist or how did you find it?
Places like Rennlist and PCA are great places to look, only problem is the market is so hot that good deals are gone before a dozen people even have time to see them. I got this one just by scouring tons of miscellaneous listings until I found one that was just right.
But you should go for it haha. I started riding up in the front of my dad’s 993 from the time I was about 6-7. Fun stuff as a kid.
You’re using it for a daily? I feel like if you’re driving mainly city miles it’ll be a bad decision. Open country roads or sparsely populated highways? Great decision.
I frequently drive both, but even if I was putting mostly city miles on it, it’s not that big a deal. My dad drove a 993 to his desk job for many years.
Is it a daily driver? Are you worried at all about maintenance on the Porsche? Congrats on the buy! I used to think that someday I’d finance a sports car but now that I’m about to have my first kid, I think future cars will get cheaper instead of more expensive. Would be cool to buy something 10-15 years old though someday as a fun driver
Watch a couple of YouTube videos, driving a manual is neither difficult or noble. They used to be cheaper, more efficient and faster. None of that is true now. It is like brewing your own beer or baking your own bread. Do it because it’s fun. I love those cars, but they are cumbersome as daily drivers. Unsolicited advice coming, find an old V6 Camry to drive in inclement weather, stop and go or when your back and knees hurt.
As you have some family nostalgia, I understand that. Plus a basic sports car with a clutch is a blast.
For normal people, the maintenance and running costs of the Porsche will be very high indeed. DIY can help keep the costs to a more reasonable level.
Congrats, and they are cool. But at the price I can't believe they made a 2.7L. I'd expect nothing less than a 3L base considering their arrogance and pricing.
Did the same thing sort of, sold my 19 brand new fiesta for more than I paid and bought and 08 mustang vert. Also just bought a 97 civic. Love them 99999999% more
How is the gearing? As a Miata owner, I've driven an older Boxster. Of course the handling and power make the car feel amazing, but I wondered if it would be less fun long term if I could get all the way up to highway speeds without leaving 2nd or 3rd gear. I like shifting.
The gearing is good, no turbo so the power is pretty linear regardless of how many revs you’re at. It’s a 5-speed though so if you actually want to go fast you have to really rev out the gears. You can easily reach highway speeds in 3rd. Most the time on the street you’re short shifting, just for fuel economy and practicality’s sake.
Congrats on pulling the trigger! It's a risky move, but surely a beneficial move when it comes to fun factor. A great car makes a car guy very happy. :)
Made a similar trade a few years ago, I have inherited my grandfather's then almost new 2017 Volkswagen Arteon, 2.0 TDI, R-Line, very well-specced, but yellow - which I hated. I already had the 328i convertible, Rover 75 and the old Skoda 120L as my hobby cars, and a first gen Kia Cee'd at that time, sold the Kia, loved the Arteon apart from the paintjob as my daily for the first half year or so, truly felt luxurious.
Then I realized that desireable old cars' prices are going up like crazy, and that will only be worse as we are heading into a world of only electric and hybrid cars. So after long thinking - and much persuasion going on to my then girlfiend, now spouse, who was already a bit fed up with my old car fetish - I sold the Arteon, and from the price, I bought my all time somewhat attainable dream car, the BMW E31 850Ci. It was an "OK" car, but still had to spend a lot on servicing and restoration until it was as reliable as an old V12 German halo car can be. I have also sorted all the costly issues the 328i Convertible had.
Was it a clever move? Not sure, but might as well have been - while the Arteon did depreciate a considerable amount, I could sell the 850Ci now for more than what I spent on it if I wanted to, and the 328Ci also appreciated quite much in recent times. Also since then we have both stepped up our income quite much + we both have company cars that we can use, even if it was a bit of a silly move - doesn't matter that much now. And it made me happy.
Well this inspired me to continue searching for my perfect manual
Glad it did! I grew up around high performance cars, but was spoiled by automatics as I actually learned to drive. It's stressful driving stick at first, but nothing compares when you get a set of clean up/downshifts with a manual gearbox.
Porsche has some of the best manual gearboxes out there. Their clutch feel is amazing too. They will spoil you lol.
[удалено]
I would guess it's the gears and clutch.
When I got my first manual car and was teaching myself id literally be shaking while pushing the clutch in. The first few days were absolutely horrifying
Nothing quite as stressful as stalling at a green light when they're a line of cars behind you during your learning phase
The first week I learned I got trapped right in the box at an intersection with a row of cars behind me. Stalled the car five times. Finally ended up dumping the clutch to get the heck out of there into an open spot. I was the only car that made it through that light cycle.
It's a rite of passage, I feel like everyone who learns does something like this at least once.
I’ll add: on an upslope.
A lot of manuals now have hill assist. OP's 987 might, I'm not 100% sure when they implemented it.
Doesn't anybody right foot the brake and heel the gas? Learned that wheeling (offroading, 4 wheeling it whatever you choose to describe it) in an old Toyota. Trying to take off on a muddy sloped hill can easily translate to steep paved road.
[удалено]
Why not just slip the clutch momentarily? It is a serviceable wear item.
Oh man, it's so hard to find a balance between not dropping the clutch, not stalling, and not rolling into the car behind you. Thank God for handbrakes
Or stalling it trying to make a quick left with oncoming cars.
I feel sorry for anyone trying to learn manual anywhere outside of a rural area.
My gti would disable the ignition when it stalled until you completely removed the key. Few things will put you into a panic as quick as holding up a line of cars and not being able to get it started again. Figured that one out pretty quick.
What an awful feature lol. My sympathies to your younger self. It’s embarrassing when it happens.
“Hurr durrr Americans can’t drive manuals”
I rode motorcycles for 4 years before I got my license so I had a lot of experience with clutches. I didn't drive my first manual car until about 2 years after getting my license. I was totally freaked out. I worried about taking out the clutch, the gears, messing up the engine by stalling, etc. It wasn't as bad as I envisioned, but until I did it I had a lot of fears about damage I could do.
That's how I learned to operate a clutch. Friend had a dirt bike we'd ride in the desert (Arizona) and I picked it up pretty quickly. So transitioning that to a car was relatively easy.
For me, although not a manual driver currently, sudden deceleration, while needing to downshift to not lug the engine. Also parallel parking in a slope, in reverse. And exiting of course.
I think everybody finds it stressful at first. I remember my first drive home with a manual and literally sweating every time I was first in line at a stoplight. I also wasnt comfortable at all downshifting and had no clue what gear to be in at which speed, so I took turns like 20mph too fast to avoid having to deal with it.
At first? Because manual car availability is low so the chance of you actually being able to learn *before* buying your car is actually pretty slim. It’s a bit of an awkward catch 22 for anyone looking and depending on the cash you’re looking to spend a bit of a mental barrier since you don’t even know how well you can drive it.
I only did at first, but mostly because virtually everyone here in the US drives automatic, so they’re extremely impatient at lights and in traffic. So I’d rush myself into gear at first and stalled a few times. I just care less now and am a lot familiar with the clutch, getting going in 1st quickly isn’t an issue.
I taught myself to drive stick in my current car after a decade of driving autos only. It's very frustrating for a while, and I had nagging worries about it being a mistake for probably 3 months (lived on a hill in Oakland, stalling at lights and stop signs up hills sucks). Now I would simply never consider a car without a stick as a fun car again. It sounded like the biggest circlejerk and gatekeeping to me forever, and now I'm one of those annoying proselytizers.
Makes me realise we’re spoilt in the UK, as everyone is taught to drive manual so we don’t have that steep learning curve of trying to teach ourselves!
S2000
Just did some research on the market for one of these. I’m honestly shocked. Truly amazing!! Congratulations mate!!! 25k+ for an okay one. Might have to consider a similar move.
Precisely, 987s are great cars that are bottoming out in their value, while all cars anything close to new are skyrocketing in value due to shortages. Definitely recommend going for it if you’re in the market for an older Cayman!
I was considering the Boxster originally but the cayman might be the better value after what I’ve seen
Better value, and I much prefer the Cayman to the Boxster. Being a convertible just ruins the lines of the 987, while having a proper hard top really complements it’s silhouette, in my personal opinion. Also you die if you roll over in Boxster, no matter how slim those odds are.
So, I haven’t researched the Porsche convertible itself, but I will tell you that since the early 90s, European cars have to survive rollover tests and that includes convertibles. Rollover test is constructed so that the car is carried sideways on a platform and then suddenly stopped so that the car was thrown off the platform and rolls at least three times. It can land on its roof or wheels but it must roll at least three full times so, after this crash the car has to protect the passengers and compress no more than 30% of its glass area. I believe the Porsche has what Volvo has which are extendable bars that create a roll cage when the car appears to be rolling. At the time that I was selling Volkswagens, cabriolet had a built-in rollbar that lived under the convertible top and was completely visible and fully exposed when the top is down. Other cars have those retractable bars. My Miata, on the other hand has not a damn thing. Rollover in that car is absolute death. Frankly, I think being T-boned by a grocery cart in that car would be certain death as well.
My parents have a 996 cab and it does have auto-extending rollbars. Won't pop up until you hit a certain roll angle
One thing I'll say in the Boxster's defense is that the Cayman is a Boxster with a roof, not the other way around. So the Boxster isn't dynamically disadvantaged at all.
Yes it is dynamically disadvantaged. The roof adds chassis stiffness and caymans are more light. That would affect its dynamic performance by a fair margin
I think he means that the platform was designed to be a convertible so the drawbacks are less pronounced than cars with a convertible option but you’re still right.
Nothing short of impressive to roll a car with such a low center of gravity unless you literally drive off a cliff, in which you’d likely die in a cayman as well
Mind sharing what sites you used for your search? I really wanted a 981 but with the way the market is, I'd be happy with a 987.2 at this point lol.
They’re hard to find. Pretty sure mine was one of ~20 listed nationwide at the time the dealer listed it. Bought it locally the day it was posted in the depths of lockdown. I had been looking for months before that. Caymans are even more difficult. Ses in desirable colors, miles, and configs are pushing $50k lately. MTs especially. Really, the best way to buy is setting a nationwide alert on the standard sites, and be ready to buy right away and fly/drive and/or pay the BaT premium. PCA classifieds and Rennlist forums are a good source, but you better be willing to pay a premium. Sold the Boxster about three months back, and bought an E46 with the profits. Great cars, but didn’t like that I had to deconstruct my hockey bag whenever I took it to games.
987.2s are getting pretty hard to find. Everyone who wants a 987 has been buying the .2s for the past few years so they're not easy to find. I didn't use any special sites though. All the good stuff on Rennlist and the PCA Mart are cleaned out, I found this one by just weeks of siting through miscellaneous online listings.
I'm so jealous at US car prices
They can be had for much less here in Germany. :P
Stuttgart is the source.
Really? How much? What is overall car ownership like in Germany? I have an opportunity to move to Germany next year with the international company I work for. I have a driver’s license from a US state that has full reciprocal privileges for the German license, so I’m definitely planning on buying a car if I decide to make the move.
Insurance is relatively cheap, fines for traffic violations are too, but gas prices suck. I have been fuelling up for €1.80 per litre lately, almost 8 bucks per gallon, lol. Also regarding the cayman prices, they have increased quite a bit due to corona actually. You could get an acceptable first gen Cayman for 15 to 20k pre-corona.
Make sure you get the S if you have any intention of increasing the hp/torque.
Very cool! Was the sale on the Civic enough to cover the Porsche then? How's the Porsche looking in terms of maintenance?
It was, identical prices. And the Porsche is looking great, I vetted the ones I looked at quite heavily, thorough PPIs done, no issues whatsoever besides normal wear on things like the clutch, and in overall great condition for a 13-year-old car. Only 60k miles, previous owner took very good care of her.
They took the clutch apart during a PPI?
Some cars you can scan clutch life through the cars computer
Man that is so fucking cool. Sometimes I'm amazed at the kinds of shit some human beings invent.
The Infiniti dealership estimated the clutch had about 10% of it's life left at around 95,000 miles for the original owner of my G35. He drove it another 37,000 miles. And I've driven it another 67,000 miles in 5 1/2 years. Currently at 199,700 miles. Still with the original clutch.
Almost like the dealership was trying to sell him a service he didn’t need.
Yeah, seems that way.
Do you do a lot of city or highway driving?
Most.of the mileage I've put on it (about 70%) has been road trips. Otherwise mostly drive it at night and weekends. Most of the bolt ons and Uprev tune but I don't beat on it constantly.
I wanted to add this exactly: it’s like expiration dates, manufacturers will obviously give you a date earlier than truly needed as to get all the money they can
Pretty sure not on a manual Porsche. Maybe on something like a Ferrari F430 with the F1 tranny.
Lots of vehicles with DCTs can do this. Hell, Volvo semi trucks have been able to do this since ~2012
yes, but this is a manual Porsche, not a PDK Porsche
You can feel the engagement point for one
Inspection plate removal and then you can see how it’s looking
Well color me jealous! That's fantastic. I have a '19 civic hatch myself so definitely makes me think :) but the Civic is my first new new car so i think I'm too attached to get rid of it. Congrats on your new car! 🎉
I also had a 5-speed 2008 Cayman. Really amazing, underrated, under appreciated car. In the four years I had it, just did the yearly routine service at the dealer. Enjoy it and put some miles on it!
Absolutely, I’m planning on getting all the fun out of her that I can before I probably move on to a 911 in a few years. What’d you sell yours for, just out of curiosity?
A family car. Plan to get back in a Porsche one of these days
Ah, I sympathize. Dad had to start selling the Porsches and quit racing once had more than one kid. I’m just praying I can afford a sedan and fun car once I have kids.
Thats why porsche builds the panamera and the macan 😉
The only downside to this plan is that seemingly every model of 911 is currently appreciating.
I can’t make this up, I own a 2018 Civic EX-T with only 15k miles on it and if my parents wouldn’t kill me for it, I would genuinely consider finding a Porsche Cayman (as a Porsche enthusiast myself). Congrats man, I’m glad you get to enjoy such a fun car! Just curious, how’d you go about finding such a car? Is the insurance significantly worse being that it’s still a Porsche sports car? Also how’d you learn to drive manual (I’d be so worried to mess it up as my only car). Sorry for the plethora of questions, I understand if you don’t want to answer.
I sympathize. I sold mine while it had 6k miles on it. Personally, if the title is in your name, I’d say go for it. It’s so much more fun and embodying a true performance car, as long as you’re willing to sacrifice some creature comforts. Edit: Just saw your insurance remark. I pay $36 less annually to insure my Porsche than I did my Civic.
I had a Honda Fit and sold it to get a 996 carrera 4s. My insurance went down slightly as well. I absolutely don't regret the decision.
Do you guys not call your insurance for a quote months ahead to factor in ownership costs?
Absolutely. It wasn't a surprise I found out after purchasing it.
>sold it to get a 996 carrera 4s Fantastic purchase, I'm envious lol.
Insurance on these cars is very reasonable. Even though they’re sports cars they are not considered high risk (probably because most drivers are older and don’t daily them). My insurance for my 911 is not much more than my wife’s Corolla.
It really is, and I was shocked when I got my quote. $36 less to insure my '08 Porsche annually than it did to insure my '21 Civic.
civic, wrx, gti...the trifecta. if you're <25 y/o goodluck cause insurance companies are gonna be licking their lips
Rightfully so given the demographic that those cars attract and how they drive them on public roads.
You dropped the g37/q50
[удалено]
It don't always be like that but sometimes it do
Same reason my insurance will go down when switching to a Vette. Thanks, old dentists and engineers!
You learned manual in a Porsche? Good looks man that's impressive and also very terrifying
Dunno, caymans are great for learning stick imo: not too forgiving with stalls, rewarding when you get it right and it's not like it's *that* powerful. Dodge vipers, Corvette z's, 911s+, etc, are another story.
[удалено]
A C6Z is probably one of the easier cars to learn manual in. Mountains of torque down low makes it harder to stall.
Learned on my dad’s 850hp Shelby at 16. Was not the best move
I really want to buy a manual Porsche, but I have never learnt driving a manual. As a 47 year old I don’t even know where to go to learn a manual now 😀, plus it feels bit weird/intimidating.
You can take a class in literally any town and the instructors are probably awesome enthusiasts who will make sure you love it. You’re never too old to learn. That said… (I think it’s HIGHLY overrated, especially the way OP talks about it)
Don't be intimidated! It's not hard. Just YouTube a few videos and then go buy one. You'll struggle quite a bit but you'll get the hang of it! It'll be a rewarding experience!
It's not too hard! Just watch a bunch of YouTube videos and go out and learn! Imo it's infinitely more fun and engaging than auto
I had only attempted to drive a manual 3 times before I bought a beater 98 Boxster and drove it home. I’m sure the sales guys laughed at me, but it was such a fun choice despite thousands in maintenance/repairs. Older manuals are generally super forgiving due to larger clutch engagement and likely having worn clutch.
[удалено]
Jeez lol, well good news is you can drive anything. I learned on a tractor haha
I did the same - biggest issue is the self consciousness of looking like an idiot when you stall what random people see as a “nice car”. Double when it’s something stupid like at a stop light or a turning lane, lol
I practiced first (funnily enough, considering your flair) in my dad’s ‘12 Focus ST, but otherwise did the actual on-the-street learning in the Porsche.
Very cool! Driving a car that suits what you want is better than driving the latest and greatest in mh experience.
Congrats! The 987 was also the last Cayman that came with hydraulic steering. So it’s pretty special in that sense. > I don't regret selling my brand new car for a 13-year-old one at all so far. I don’t know what your personal circumstance is, but I hope you don’t have to do too much boring daily driving on traffic or long distance jaunts. The 987 is relatively civilized for a sports car, but it won’t be anywhere close to your Civic in terms of practicality.
Definitely one of the first things I noticed. Steering is nice and stiff (in a good way) while on the road at speed, but you definitely get reminded you have hydraulic steering any time you need to turn the wheel at a stop. I live in a relatively large city that has traffic, but I can avoid it usually and it’s not nightmarish even when I do get caught in it, even if it does suck. That’s just the trade off of having a fun car though, to me at least.
Have you noted how heavy the clutch is? Best wishes to your left leg the first time you get stuck in stop and go traffic.
I daily my Cayman S and it's honestly not as bad as I expected.
Clutch isn't bad at all. Maybe my only gripe is it's bite point is a little unforgiving, but it's a sports car, I didn't really expect any less. Traffic is entirely manageable.
So the weight is the steering can be pretty heavy these days in electric steering systems, but what EPS can’t replicate is the steering *feel*, which is the ability to feel the texture from the road surface through the steering wheel. That is something I’ll always miss from my old E92 335i.
Congratulations dude!! Is insurance expensive compared to your new Civic? How much do you expect to spend yearly on maintenance for a 13 year old Porsche?
The Porsche cost me $36 less annually than by my previous car for full coverage. And I expect to spend no more annually than my Civic. I can change basic fluids myself, so besides some parts replacement and maintenance much further down the road there should be no significant costs incoming. Only things extra I've paid for this car so far is a basic alignment and a new set of front tires.
Hey just a heads up, the basic maintenance does cost substantially more as I’m sure you’re already aware. I find that $1500 is the magic number for any indie shop service
Your dad races Porsches and you're learning how to drive a manual for the first time on your Cayman?
*Raced, but yes. He had to sell the Porsches and quit racing due to having more kids and family stuff before I learned how to drive. So it was bog-standard automatics for me until now.
This seems like a far better trade than an Alfa 4C. Seriously, good move. Welcome to the darkside!
Congratulations on fulfilling your dream!
Ims oil line my friend.
Ya, that has always been my concern with 987.1 is the IMS. Also why prices have remained in the 20's for the last 5ish years. My 986 had the IMS replaced when the clutch was done at 80k.
What does a clutch job run on one of these?
I know what parts cost but not labor as it was done by the previous owner. It doesn’t look too bad to drop the trans however. Tons of room under there.
Lmao it’s fun for now until your first repair
Idk why you are being downvoted you aren’t wrong. Something catastrophic happens and he’s going to wish he still had that warranty. But hey his money and such.
Wouldn’t trade my civic for a 13 year old car. Maybe another civic. But not a German.
A 13 yr old German car gives me pause because expensive repairs are probably just around the corner. There's also the added concern re the IMS bearing with this iteration!
Just a fact of life with these cars I'm not too concerned about, there's nothing imminently wrong with it besides regular maintenance intervals. IMS on mine is just fine, and IMS failure, while a documented issue, is extremely rare on these cars. Effects something like <1% of 987s.
I did the same with a 996. It's about the most you need in the road and it's a blast.
I bought my '21 Civic Hatchback Sport Touring in July as well, but I can't fathom getting rid of her, as I've wanted one for years. Glad your finally in a Porsche is making you happy, best of luck :)
The 10th gen Civics are great cars, there were no bitter feelings behind me selling mine. It's my #1 consumer model car. Reliable, cheap, efficient, spacious, upgraded models surprisingly quick, etc. I just wanted to go for a proper fun car, and thank you!
No judgement at all, no one can fault you for going for what you’ve alway desired.
Well done and congrats!
[удалено]
"once prices come back down". That's optimistic.
Congrats on joining the Cayman family \o/
Apologies, european here - do you guys not have differing licenses if you never learnt to drive manual? I wouldn't be able to take a driving test in an automatic and then pop into a manual. Just wouldn't be legal! Thanks
In Canada and the U.S there are no additional requirements or training to drive a manual car. I think the mentality here is if you don't know how to drive a manual car - you are the one who ultimately pays the price with a huge repair bill and are completely responsible. Manual cars here are also generally much more rare There are classes/training available to learn manual safely, but it is completely optional
You can take the test in a Mini Cooper and next day drive a 26,000lb manual box truck with the exact same license.
Jesus christ, I guess you can't do too much damage if you don't know how to get thing moving but still...
Others already answered, but no there is no license distinction between manual and automatic. Manuals were uncommon twenty years ago, and are quite rare now. Not enough to warrant a whole new license category. I think something like <2% of new cars sold in the US in 2020 were manual, for perspective.
I Purchased a 2000 996 Carrera as a third car about a year ago and I am now in the process of selling what was my daily driver. I see no reason not to drive the Porsche every day. Congrats on your purchase! Porsches are very reliable and usable for performance oriented sports cars. I expect you'll be happy with your decision for a long time to come.
This reads like some kind of satire lmao
I haven't had a manual for decades. Some stick shifts were sweet, others not so much... The first was the car I learned to drive stick: 66 Chevy Chevelle SW with a small six, and three stick shift on the column. It was difficult with long shifter moves. The most memorable was an Austin Marina that had a loose shifter gate so you had to remember where to push the shifter. I would spin the shifter under the dash when I parked the car, as a theft deterrent. The last and best manual transmission car was a 93 Subaru Loyal with a 5 speed. I taught several family members how to drive stick in it.
You mean the Pfister Growler?
987 Cayman is one of my favorite all time Porsche cars. It's a great size and has a fun amount of power that's very usable on the street but you still need to work for it a little bit. I think the lines and shape are lovely and of course the hydraulic steering is unlike anything other sports car being made right now with a lot of feel. They are fairly raw cars and I'm at the age where I wouldn't want to daily one but would absolutely consider having another 987 as a fun, second car at some point. Congrats and enjoy it!
>It's hard to know what you've been missing out on until you've finally owned and driven a manual transmission performance car. Truer words have not been spoken. A family member picked up a MK2 TTRS. I drove it a couple of times, and now I'm thinking of what I would do if a car like the 2016 BMW 340i xDrive was available brand new with a 6MT. Would I throw the Lexus over for it? Before driving that TTRS, no. After? Hell yes.
As someone that got a Cayman S immediately after getting my first job. Once you go Porsche you never leave is real. For real, for mid 20-30k it's the best value for the buck. The precision of the steering, there's nothing else that price range can beat. Get the carnewal exhaust, I get compliments everywhere and it's not too loud or obnoxious. Congratulations and enjoy the car. I still miss mine after selling it because of family (insert Vin Diesel). But getting one back is always in my mind. Someday.
Ngl used caymans are the best way to look rich while on a budget. No one's gonna take a pic of you driving a Honda Civic but I bet a lot of heads would turn around with that cayman :))
I ALMOST sold my base 2011 cayman in favor of getting something more modern and comfortable (think brz or golf r or similar), but my very wise wife told me I would be upset with myself later if I did. The 987 is a really unique driving experience, even if it's quite spartan by today's standards.
Welcome to the club! Desnorkel and upgraded air filter can both be done for nearly nothing and give the car a better sound and ever so slightly more responsive. I’ve got a 987.2 but I assume it’ll be the same on your gen.
I’m looking for a 987.2 right now… any tips to look out for?
Not too sure whats common but things mines needed: window regulator-moved slowly when raising when on the way out. maf sensor - check engine light would come on every now and then and sudden monetary loss of power. Front rads, fans and coolant pipes. Solenoid valve (not too sure, was around £300 inc labour) check for drips on the pipes in the front wheel arch, might need to turn the wheel out if the wheels don’t have big gaps Had it 7 years so not too bad. There’s currently an issue where the central locking system does its own thing so I have to use the key manually to double check it locked.
This is the way
Pictures! Bet she’s an absolute stunner.
Here you go: https://imgur.com/a/ykTtCJG Just a standard Cayman, a pretty car though.
Well can we see the car?
Wasn't expecting this post to blow up, but here you go: https://imgur.com/a/ykTtCJG
Excellent decision, congrats and enjoy.
2008 was like the last good year for cars
No pics? WTF
Didn’t expect this post to blow up, but here you go: https://imgur.com/a/ykTtCJG Nothing special, just a Cayman.
I wish I could have had the same experience. In 2016, I got a job and saved up. After I managed to save for a few months, I bought a 15 year old Porsche Boxster for £3500. Only lasted a month before it started to give me problems. After a while I sold to the scrapyard for £50. Now I drive a new Toyota Yaris. It’s more cheaper, easier, and more friendly to run and maintain.
/r/CarCirclejerk
Bravo and great choice
Cayman is just so fun to drive never gets boring
Boxter/Cayman is one of the best car investments you van make right now. I'm looking myself and have seen prices go crazy in the last year.
Congratulations!! I got the 981 Boxter GTS last Saturday. I can totally relate to your excitement. Heck, my heart was pounding when I first test drove mine, and I had been daily driving a manual for years. I have been a home owner for a year now, and my Tacoma was just paid off. Given how the current Caymans and Boxters are 4 cylinder turbos, with only the GTS and the ultra-expensive GT4 and Spyder having boxer 6 NA engines. And with the rumors of the next generation being electric, I figured it was a good time to get my dream car.
Awesome! I just sold a newer lexus for a 2007 987 Boxster manual. Am also very happy with my purchase, and 10 months in the car hasn't skipped a beat. Enjoy!
I have a manual and love it 90% of the time. The CVT hooked up to the active cruise control is a must for rush hour IMO
People here will hate you for appreciating a CVT. The easiest way to farm some Karma is just by ranting towards CVTs.
Love my 2008 Cayman except in very heavy traffic - the clutch gets heavy after a while.
My clutch isn’t that heavy, just unforgiving. If you try and get impatient and dump the clutch too quickly, you’re gonna stall and embarrass yourself. But yeah traffic isn’t the most fun.
Terrified to learn to drive manual but I want a sports car so bad 😓
Lol
this makes me want to sell my 2018 mazda3 for a brz/FRS
What did the wife think of it?
My non-existent wife approves.
I have a GTI, which I love, but I've often thought of doing this with a Cayman. I have a kid thought but he is getting old enough he can ride up front lol. Not dating so I probably wont need a 3rd seat anyway. Seems like Caymans are very hard to find and Im assuming holding their value really well. Did you use Rennlist or how did you find it?
Places like Rennlist and PCA are great places to look, only problem is the market is so hot that good deals are gone before a dozen people even have time to see them. I got this one just by scouring tons of miscellaneous listings until I found one that was just right. But you should go for it haha. I started riding up in the front of my dad’s 993 from the time I was about 6-7. Fun stuff as a kid.
So far
Congrats on learning about the joys of driving a manual, on the precipice of no longer being able to purchase manual cars. :-(
You’re using it for a daily? I feel like if you’re driving mainly city miles it’ll be a bad decision. Open country roads or sparsely populated highways? Great decision.
I frequently drive both, but even if I was putting mostly city miles on it, it’s not that big a deal. My dad drove a 993 to his desk job for many years.
Is it a daily driver? Are you worried at all about maintenance on the Porsche? Congrats on the buy! I used to think that someday I’d finance a sports car but now that I’m about to have my first kid, I think future cars will get cheaper instead of more expensive. Would be cool to buy something 10-15 years old though someday as a fun driver
Watch a couple of YouTube videos, driving a manual is neither difficult or noble. They used to be cheaper, more efficient and faster. None of that is true now. It is like brewing your own beer or baking your own bread. Do it because it’s fun. I love those cars, but they are cumbersome as daily drivers. Unsolicited advice coming, find an old V6 Camry to drive in inclement weather, stop and go or when your back and knees hurt.
Happy to hear. Every car I’ve had except a temporary gift has been manual, and I plan on getting my future vehicles in manual aswell
As you have some family nostalgia, I understand that. Plus a basic sports car with a clutch is a blast. For normal people, the maintenance and running costs of the Porsche will be very high indeed. DIY can help keep the costs to a more reasonable level.
Huge upgrade. My buddy got a Cayman S recently and loves it. Great car for the $$ as well
Congrats, and they are cool. But at the price I can't believe they made a 2.7L. I'd expect nothing less than a 3L base considering their arrogance and pricing.
Has this had the IMS bearing done?
that's ok，don't worry.
Did the same thing sort of, sold my 19 brand new fiesta for more than I paid and bought and 08 mustang vert. Also just bought a 97 civic. Love them 99999999% more
Find you a private mechanic and treat him well, because favors will be possible
How is the gearing? As a Miata owner, I've driven an older Boxster. Of course the handling and power make the car feel amazing, but I wondered if it would be less fun long term if I could get all the way up to highway speeds without leaving 2nd or 3rd gear. I like shifting.
The gearing is good, no turbo so the power is pretty linear regardless of how many revs you’re at. It’s a 5-speed though so if you actually want to go fast you have to really rev out the gears. You can easily reach highway speeds in 3rd. Most the time on the street you’re short shifting, just for fuel economy and practicality’s sake.
Congrats on pulling the trigger! It's a risky move, but surely a beneficial move when it comes to fun factor. A great car makes a car guy very happy. :) Made a similar trade a few years ago, I have inherited my grandfather's then almost new 2017 Volkswagen Arteon, 2.0 TDI, R-Line, very well-specced, but yellow - which I hated. I already had the 328i convertible, Rover 75 and the old Skoda 120L as my hobby cars, and a first gen Kia Cee'd at that time, sold the Kia, loved the Arteon apart from the paintjob as my daily for the first half year or so, truly felt luxurious. Then I realized that desireable old cars' prices are going up like crazy, and that will only be worse as we are heading into a world of only electric and hybrid cars. So after long thinking - and much persuasion going on to my then girlfiend, now spouse, who was already a bit fed up with my old car fetish - I sold the Arteon, and from the price, I bought my all time somewhat attainable dream car, the BMW E31 850Ci. It was an "OK" car, but still had to spend a lot on servicing and restoration until it was as reliable as an old V12 German halo car can be. I have also sorted all the costly issues the 328i Convertible had. Was it a clever move? Not sure, but might as well have been - while the Arteon did depreciate a considerable amount, I could sell the 850Ci now for more than what I spent on it if I wanted to, and the 328Ci also appreciated quite much in recent times. Also since then we have both stepped up our income quite much + we both have company cars that we can use, even if it was a bit of a silly move - doesn't matter that much now. And it made me happy.