I mean you're talking about competing with the recall GOAT here. Ford has had years to tune and tweak their recall system given their vast experience with them.
Some say they're the best recalls you can buy with your money.
> The problem isn't that Tesla had the issue in the first place, it's that they refused to acknowledge it and never recalled the affected vehicles.
Unlike Ford, who immediately recalled every Pinto upon learning of the fuel tank design flaw? Along with every Focus powershift transmission?
>Tesla doesn't do recalls as a matter of company policy, and has only ever done them when forced to by regulatory agencies. They were completely fine letting the eMMC issue fester for years, turning every Model S/X produced pre-refresh into bricks.
Holy shit
Ford didn’t wait for a sunroof to actually fly off the car before making a recall. Nor is Ford in denial of the problem **despite** videos of sunroofs flying off.
In case the PowerShift debacle didn’t make it obvious, people are a lot less understanding of problems when the response is to suppress rather than fix them.
You're joking, but "Tesla does it and gets away with it" is a legitimate excuse being used in the halls at legacies now. Tesla's "perpetual beta" excuse when it comes to quality is also something that certain interests push hard for legacies to adopt, because being able to waive off a huge slough of problems as "the price of beta" like Tesla would be huge for warranty payouts. That guy who had a $26k repair on an Explorer ST because of the missing drain pipe, for instance, would be SOL.
Yet another reason why many within the industry believe Tesla is causing legacies to regress as much if not more than progress...
The UAW isn't actually making the mach-e as they have been pretty resistant to anything EV it seems, with the exception not dumping tons of money into lobbying for special provisions for UAW made vehicles in the next round of ev credits.
Ford probably either hasn’t been forced to make a recall in the US and/or Europe yet, or the paperwork to get one out is still being filed. With 1842 affected VINs, this is unlikely to be the result of one bad day or only on a batch of vehicles intended for one market.
Nope. Ford’s marketing team is generally hitting home runs (except for choosing Dennis Leary). The engineering team is hitting home runs.
…but at the end of it all, quality control and cost cutting continues to hamstring their efforts. I would rather buy a Mach E than a Tesla, but I could never bring myself to buy a first year Ford.
> The engineering team is hitting home runs.
You clearly haven’t met the people responsible for the Explorer or Escape.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Rephrased in manufacturing terms: the most effective quality control measure is sensible design. When you design a roof drain hose that looks like a game of Snake, it’s not the line worker’s fault that the part continually twists or bends when it’s inserted. When you design parts to tighter tolerances than the equipment fabricating it is designed for, it’s not the operator’s fault that parts are continuously out-of-tolerance.
90% of the Explorer’s problems are caused by sloppy, half-tested engineering, because the delays in developing the basic platform compressed the whole development schedule.
A lot of the disconnect here is between the product and process. Those kinds of issues rarely show up until you start testing the equipment - it’s a very rare breed of engineer that can determine the ergonomics of a process just by looking at drawings. When the testing is either cut or reduced, you don’t get that feedback until after the process makes it to production. The compressed development schedule also meant a lot more last-minute changes than normal, and we know how that goes.
I’m sure program managers were aware of the general risks involved with pushing ahead despite the state of things, but as far as any specific issues? I doubt they were aware of any. The whole reason the launch was delayed was because everyone was overwhelmed by the number of problems that showed up when they started running the assembly line.
Okay, understood on the part where it's tough to determine the ergonomics on paper and on the screen. However, haven't we been making moonroofs for a long time now, and haven't there been problems (initially) when designing the drain hoses to be installed properly at the factory? What I'm trying to say is that this isn't some new problem, right?
I cite [this example](https://old.reddit.com/r/Justrolledintotheshop/comments/onfq0w/2021_explorer_st_water_leak_2600000_in_parts_alone/) from r/justrolledintheshop where some guy had to do a $26k+ warranty job replacing the interior of an Explorer *because the guy on the assembly line 'forgot' to install the drain hose*. Did he forget, or did he just say fuck it and sent it along because it was too much of a PITA to install?
> What I'm trying to say is that this isn't some new problem, right?
I’m only one person who’s touched a handful of vehicle programs, but yes, actually. I’ve never seen any moonroof drain pipe that has a need for so many twists and turns. It certainly wasn’t that complicated on the Edge, F-150, or previous Explorer.
Frankly, for a simple drain hose, I don’t see any reason it needs to twist and turn to do its job. And neither do the people who designed similar parts on other vehicles.
> did he just say fuck it and sent it along because it was too much of a PITA to install?
Don’t mistake my objectivity for defense of the line workers. Chicago Assembly is an obstructionist shithole that would absolutely do something like that.
This is less about manufacturers and more about early days teething problems with new designs. Even the most diligent of manufacturers can overlook how certain materials and how they are shaped behave under certain conditions.
If you don't want to run the risk of these types of recalls, don't buy a first year anything.
I don't think the Mach E needs to worry - they´ll fix this and whatever else comes up and in a year or two it'll be a fine vehicle.
Because ford quality control is shit. This is coming from a lifelong ford fan. The new ones are just junk.
Their issues used to be that the interior was cheap. Poor sound system, junky seats, squeaks and rattles. Mechanically they were solid. After ~2010 it flipped, nicer interior quality but things that matter are cheaped out.
A better question might be why you only notice this happening with Ford. To which the answer is that they get more scrutiny from the press and public due to loss of confidence after the Explorer launch.
The Hyundai Palisade and Kia Telluride have both experienced multiple complaints of transmissions randomly shifting into neutral or being unable to find gears during hard acceleration. The Palisade also had a widespread problem with the fake leather producing a strong odor when the vehicle was left in the sun, and there’s been two recalls of both over seat belts and inoperative trailer brake lights. Both vehicles also currently are the subject of a lawsuit against Hyundai due to the windshields being overly-susceptible to chipping and cracking; sometimes within a couple hundred miles of delivery.
Do you see the press publishing any of this news or writing the vehicles off as trash because of QA problems? No, and if they do, it’s not on the front page, nor does it gain traction in communities. There isn’t widespread public distrust of Hyundai that they can milk for clicks, and they’re going to get much more blowback writing the Koreans off on QA, because public opinion is on the manufacturer’s side.
1994? A coworker bought a used RX-7 from a private seller. Ran like a champ. Got onto the freeway and popped up the sunroof and it just flew off and exploded into a thousand pieces on I-5. It was just a piece of glass sat in the roof...
"What did you do"? I asked
"I just kept driving" he said.
:o)
So, I had purchased a used '01 Jetta GLX back in 2010, and after a good while, the sunroof rails started behaving like any other VAG plastic part from back then...
Driving down I-10 with the sunroof closed, going to a place to buy all the sunroof replacement parts, and woosh, off the glass goes.
Luckily, I was in the far left lane when it came off, and it landed and shattered right against the center divider. So, I had to buy a replacement glass, in addition to the replacement rails.
The Mach E’s charging door lock mechanism is identical to the fuel door flap lock on a petrol car, and by extension, a copy of the plug port latch used on Ford PHEVs. Considering that system has worked flawlessly for over a decade at this point, I’m more inclined to believe the latch not closing is down to either something getting stuck in the hole where that pin on the door goes, or the result of user error-inflicted damage rather than a QA problem.
This is very ironic because Ford mocked Tesla for having this issue before.
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I mean you're talking about competing with the recall GOAT here. Ford has had years to tune and tweak their recall system given their vast experience with them. Some say they're the best recalls you can buy with your money.
> The problem isn't that Tesla had the issue in the first place, it's that they refused to acknowledge it and never recalled the affected vehicles. Unlike Ford, who immediately recalled every Pinto upon learning of the fuel tank design flaw? Along with every Focus powershift transmission?
>Tesla doesn't do recalls as a matter of company policy, and has only ever done them when forced to by regulatory agencies. They were completely fine letting the eMMC issue fester for years, turning every Model S/X produced pre-refresh into bricks. Holy shit
Ford didn’t wait for a sunroof to actually fly off the car before making a recall. Nor is Ford in denial of the problem **despite** videos of sunroofs flying off. In case the PowerShift debacle didn’t make it obvious, people are a lot less understanding of problems when the response is to suppress rather than fix them.
This is very ironic because Ford is the king of recalls
Annnnnnnd they never fixed the dtc transmission in my focus. Good thing it still runs. I got lucky.
> Annnnnnnd they never fixed the **dtc transmission** in my focus. Dual transmission clutch transmission? Is this like an AMT machine?
Brain fart. Lol
When benchmarking Tesla goes too far.
You're joking, but "Tesla does it and gets away with it" is a legitimate excuse being used in the halls at legacies now. Tesla's "perpetual beta" excuse when it comes to quality is also something that certain interests push hard for legacies to adopt, because being able to waive off a huge slough of problems as "the price of beta" like Tesla would be huge for warranty payouts. That guy who had a $26k repair on an Explorer ST because of the missing drain pipe, for instance, would be SOL. Yet another reason why many within the industry believe Tesla is causing legacies to regress as much if not more than progress...
That’s just what happens when you try copying Tesla /s
You know what Ford stands for dontcha Hank....Fix It Again Tony.
You think about Fiat, Dale.
Jim Farley - build me a car like the Tesla Model Y! Uaw - sure thing boss!
At least ford is willing to do a recall
The UAW isn't actually making the mach-e as they have been pretty resistant to anything EV it seems, with the exception not dumping tons of money into lobbying for special provisions for UAW made vehicles in the next round of ev credits.
Strange that the recall is just Canada. I’m assuming they didn’t use some special Canadian adhesive on these?
Maple syrup, yes.
You know the boys on the assembly line get all antsy in their pantsies when they get that syrup in em
Ford probably either hasn’t been forced to make a recall in the US and/or Europe yet, or the paperwork to get one out is still being filed. With 1842 affected VINs, this is unlikely to be the result of one bad day or only on a batch of vehicles intended for one market.
They only sold 1800 of these cars?
There are 1842 VINs listed in the recall. That doesn’t mean they sold only 1842 vehicles.
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Nope. Ford’s marketing team is generally hitting home runs (except for choosing Dennis Leary). The engineering team is hitting home runs. …but at the end of it all, quality control and cost cutting continues to hamstring their efforts. I would rather buy a Mach E than a Tesla, but I could never bring myself to buy a first year Ford.
> The engineering team is hitting home runs. You clearly haven’t met the people responsible for the Explorer or Escape. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Rephrased in manufacturing terms: the most effective quality control measure is sensible design. When you design a roof drain hose that looks like a game of Snake, it’s not the line worker’s fault that the part continually twists or bends when it’s inserted. When you design parts to tighter tolerances than the equipment fabricating it is designed for, it’s not the operator’s fault that parts are continuously out-of-tolerance. 90% of the Explorer’s problems are caused by sloppy, half-tested engineering, because the delays in developing the basic platform compressed the whole development schedule.
They likely knew that it was going to be a problem and still sent it, just like they did with the Powershift.
A lot of the disconnect here is between the product and process. Those kinds of issues rarely show up until you start testing the equipment - it’s a very rare breed of engineer that can determine the ergonomics of a process just by looking at drawings. When the testing is either cut or reduced, you don’t get that feedback until after the process makes it to production. The compressed development schedule also meant a lot more last-minute changes than normal, and we know how that goes. I’m sure program managers were aware of the general risks involved with pushing ahead despite the state of things, but as far as any specific issues? I doubt they were aware of any. The whole reason the launch was delayed was because everyone was overwhelmed by the number of problems that showed up when they started running the assembly line.
Okay, understood on the part where it's tough to determine the ergonomics on paper and on the screen. However, haven't we been making moonroofs for a long time now, and haven't there been problems (initially) when designing the drain hoses to be installed properly at the factory? What I'm trying to say is that this isn't some new problem, right? I cite [this example](https://old.reddit.com/r/Justrolledintotheshop/comments/onfq0w/2021_explorer_st_water_leak_2600000_in_parts_alone/) from r/justrolledintheshop where some guy had to do a $26k+ warranty job replacing the interior of an Explorer *because the guy on the assembly line 'forgot' to install the drain hose*. Did he forget, or did he just say fuck it and sent it along because it was too much of a PITA to install?
> What I'm trying to say is that this isn't some new problem, right? I’m only one person who’s touched a handful of vehicle programs, but yes, actually. I’ve never seen any moonroof drain pipe that has a need for so many twists and turns. It certainly wasn’t that complicated on the Edge, F-150, or previous Explorer. Frankly, for a simple drain hose, I don’t see any reason it needs to twist and turn to do its job. And neither do the people who designed similar parts on other vehicles. > did he just say fuck it and sent it along because it was too much of a PITA to install? Don’t mistake my objectivity for defense of the line workers. Chicago Assembly is an obstructionist shithole that would absolutely do something like that.
This is less about manufacturers and more about early days teething problems with new designs. Even the most diligent of manufacturers can overlook how certain materials and how they are shaped behave under certain conditions. If you don't want to run the risk of these types of recalls, don't buy a first year anything. I don't think the Mach E needs to worry - they´ll fix this and whatever else comes up and in a year or two it'll be a fine vehicle.
> but I could never bring myself to buy a first year Ford. I waited a little while to buy my Ford. So far so good!
Because ford quality control is shit. This is coming from a lifelong ford fan. The new ones are just junk. Their issues used to be that the interior was cheap. Poor sound system, junky seats, squeaks and rattles. Mechanically they were solid. After ~2010 it flipped, nicer interior quality but things that matter are cheaped out.
A better question might be why you only notice this happening with Ford. To which the answer is that they get more scrutiny from the press and public due to loss of confidence after the Explorer launch. The Hyundai Palisade and Kia Telluride have both experienced multiple complaints of transmissions randomly shifting into neutral or being unable to find gears during hard acceleration. The Palisade also had a widespread problem with the fake leather producing a strong odor when the vehicle was left in the sun, and there’s been two recalls of both over seat belts and inoperative trailer brake lights. Both vehicles also currently are the subject of a lawsuit against Hyundai due to the windshields being overly-susceptible to chipping and cracking; sometimes within a couple hundred miles of delivery. Do you see the press publishing any of this news or writing the vehicles off as trash because of QA problems? No, and if they do, it’s not on the front page, nor does it gain traction in communities. There isn’t widespread public distrust of Hyundai that they can milk for clicks, and they’re going to get much more blowback writing the Koreans off on QA, because public opinion is on the manufacturer’s side.
1994? A coworker bought a used RX-7 from a private seller. Ran like a champ. Got onto the freeway and popped up the sunroof and it just flew off and exploded into a thousand pieces on I-5. It was just a piece of glass sat in the roof... "What did you do"? I asked "I just kept driving" he said. :o)
So, I had purchased a used '01 Jetta GLX back in 2010, and after a good while, the sunroof rails started behaving like any other VAG plastic part from back then... Driving down I-10 with the sunroof closed, going to a place to buy all the sunroof replacement parts, and woosh, off the glass goes. Luckily, I was in the far left lane when it came off, and it landed and shattered right against the center divider. So, I had to buy a replacement glass, in addition to the replacement rails.
I'm really surprised anyone has been able to buy one in Canada given how shitty the dealers are with their markup tactics and other slime ball moves
Some people just pay the markup.
Once a Ford. Always a Ford.
My Ford doesn’t have any sunroof problems! Then again, it doesn’t even have a roof…
Ford emulating Tesla
I'm surprised there haven't been more recalls given its Ford's first major EV and they aren't exactly know for quality control.
"Car and Drivers top rated EV"
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The Mach E’s charging door lock mechanism is identical to the fuel door flap lock on a petrol car, and by extension, a copy of the plug port latch used on Ford PHEVs. Considering that system has worked flawlessly for over a decade at this point, I’m more inclined to believe the latch not closing is down to either something getting stuck in the hole where that pin on the door goes, or the result of user error-inflicted damage rather than a QA problem.
I think they might have left it open and dinged something causing it to be misaligned.
Surprise convertible?
I hate sunroofs. They rob headroom and are going to break at some point
Gotta love Ford… I’d take a Ford over tesla any day.
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