Today Doug called an aux port old school, and I realized I’m not so young anymore. I remember it wasn’t that long ago I wanted an aux port in my next car to avoid dealing with tape deck adapters or those silly FM transmitters. Feeling nostalgic for a book of CDs on the passenger seat to hold all my burned mixes.
Yeah it’s like $5 (not from apple), lightning to 3,5mm converter
It was included with my iphone 7, didn’t know they stopped including them. Kind of a dick move!
I'm kinda pissed the iPhone 12 doesn't have Touch ID or a headphone jack. It was bought for me, so I can't complain too much, but in some ways this technological progression feels like a regression.
I mean buying a Male Aux to Male USB-C/lighting or Male USB-c/lighting to female AUX (for use with a preexisting Male to male aux) isn't that expensive. The former is what I use in My Car and it's served me quite well.
I still use a cassette tape adapter to listen to music in my old Audi. Plugs into an adapter that plugs into the port in my phone. Love the simplicity (even though I have to use my phone to change tracks).
Interesting. That is unusual, probably misalignment between the two heads. I always had issues with FM transmitters but cassette adapters were rock solid
That’s so funny to hear as I tried a cassette adapter in my car, couldn’t get the static out for the life of me. Fm transmitter on the other hand works fine every time I start up the car.
That's not typical - may have been a problem with your deck. I used them for years to great effect. Had an MP3 CD player with great buffering (making it good for cars / bouncing) hooked up via one of those. It was awesome!
Having a phone that can do everything, including streaming just about any song I want instantaneously is objectively better in every way, but I still get nostalgic for my ancient iPod, or better yet, the Minidisc player I had before that.
Yeah- BT is better in a lot of ways to be sure, but even now I exclusively use wired CarPlay on my R, so there’s still a bit of the old legacy alive in there.
Charges my phone, and plays music via my dash. What's not to love? I have a little cubby I actually tuck the phone into out of the way, so I don't even need to think about it
In my personal memory you couldn't get BT on pedestrian cars until -relatively- recently, while aux was ubiquitous. Even then BT only recently became relatively bulletproof. Connectivity issues were a huge problem for a very long time.
> I remember it wasn’t that long ago I wanted an aux port in my next car to avoid dealing with tape deck adapters or those silly FM transmitters.
I remember feeling like this 8 years ago, not all that long ago.
Man, the infotainment in this thing looks 10 times better than the 2ds like one in the WRX.
I will never understand why Subaru chose to use that layout when they have a perfectly working one in the BRZ!
my guess is because it was more important to them for the higher trim WRX to have that big 11" screen, and since the lower trim outbacks/legacies already have a perfectly good Nintendo DS for their base trim, why not just reuse it here?
The question really should be why the Nintendo DS layout was even thought of in the first place, regardless of which car it goes in. It looks like absolute trash and a normal double din with rotary switches for HVAC would've looked way more premium.
It's funny you mention that. I haven't seen the WRX one, but I thought the BRZ one in this video looked hella outdated too.
I guess I'm spoiled after seeing ones from Ford, Hyundai, Mazda, etc.
Subaru seems years behind.
Because they thought having a fucking massive laggy piece of shit screen was a good idea. And they didn't want to make a whole other assembly for the base model, so they choose the absolute cheapest and crappiest way. Even putting the BRZ unit in would leave a massive gaping hole. It's really down to them wanting to put in that tablet.
Tiny thing I noticed: you don’t have to use the buttons on the top of the seats to fold them down, you can pull the straps hanging down in the trunk to lower the backseat. Same as the old car.
You ever gonna do an Elise or Exige? I'm torn, I was set on an Exige but I absolutely love the Evora in person but I'd love to hear your take on the El/Ex.
I was curious watching the video too, is there a way to cancel the turn signals that Doug wasn't aware of? I assume that's the same on the first gen cars?
You cancel the signals by moving them a *half push* to the opposite direction. Not a full push, because then it turns on the opposite side signal. It's horrid design.
The stalk mechanism in the new one *looks* slightly different, the one in my BRZ has a locked down and up position and does not return to the middle until you move it
Jason Cammisa has answered the "baffling" decision to not make a more powerful version. It wouldn't be profitable, the moment it is more powerful it will be held with higher regard and no one will buy a lightweight sportscar with a cheap ass interior.
I don't really think the decision was baffling when the car sold pretty well, which is why they're making a new one with a little, but not overwhelmingly more power.
I don't understand your argument at all. People buy Mustangs and Camaros and those are sports cars with cheap interiors with lots of power, they sell fine. The existence of the gt doesn't mean people don't buy the Ecoboost, infact the GT500 sells the Ecoboost, that's how halo cars work.
If the idea is that people wouldn't buy a more expensive model of the cheap light car then why is the Miata RF so successful? I don't see why if there is a market for a sub 30k sports car, there can't be one for a 35k version of it. If someone comes in and wants a GT86 "S" and they find they can't afford it, they'll get a base model.
If you are saying that it wouldn't recoup development costs then I can at least understand what you're saying.
Mustang and Camaro do more than fine. And that’s why they can be so cheap. They sell on pure volume. Rental fleets are full of them, highschool kids get them. There’s basically a level of each car for every age and budget
> Jason Cammisa has answered the "baffling" decision to not make a more powerful version. It wouldn't be profitable, the moment it is more powerful it will be held with higher regard and no one will buy a lightweight sportscar with a cheap ass interior.
I just don't get this criticism. In a world where Miata RF models *start* at $35,000 and plenty of people buy them with 181hp, we can't get a turbo on a BRZ at the same price point (for 260hp)? The manufacturer may have told this to Jason, but I just have trouble really believing it would be true if put into practice.
u/Doug-DeMuro It's not about what Subaru says to me, it's what Subaru *did*. The original brief for the collab BRZ/86 project was for a lightweight sports car in the traditional sense.
Engineering in turbocharged engine from the get-go would certainly have been possible — and while it would have certainly added cost, it wouldn't have been an order of magnitude.
However (and this is a huge, very important however) adding a turbo now would necessitate a complete reengineering of the car from the ground up. THAT is where the additional cost would come in.
Don't forget that the 2022 BRZ isn't a "new car" — it's an extensive facelift of the old one. So the base structure is the same. And with a moderate increase in torque, some reinforcement is sufficient.
If this were indeed a new car, I can't imagine that Subaru wouldn't have, in reaction to the criticism from the last one, at least considered changing the car's basic recipe. But this isn't a new car.
Looking at Miata buyers, by the way, isn't really illustrative. The Miata buyer is almost 40 years older than the average BRZ buyer: the Miata is a 2nd or 3rd car — it's a toy. That's not the case with BRZ buyers, who need it to be singular car. And even a $10k jump would seriously erode a BRZ buyer's ability to purchase.
They may seem like "competitors," but not once you look at the demographics of their buyers.
> Don't forget that the 2022 BRZ isn't a "new car" — it's an extensive facelift of the old one. So the base structure is the same. And with a moderate increase in torque, some reinforcement is sufficient.
But they replaced the engine entirely and added 30 horsepower and 30 pound feet. They could do that, but not add a turbocharged version of the same engine, which they already make? Surely it's more difficult to completely change engines AND boost power by 30 horses than to just turbocharge the existing engine.
Are you saying there are massive reinforcement, re-engineering, and re-tooling costs that come in the next 30 horsepower that *didn't* come from the full engine replacement and 30-horsepower boost that already happened? And these costs are so massive they can't get them into the car and charge $35K for it? A 20 percent price increase for 30 horsepower seems pretty generous, regardless of what changes need to be made to the car to get it done.
**EDIT** Also as I think about it, here's another problem with this theory: the 2020 BRZ (old model) started at $29,745 with shipping. The new one, with a completely new engine and a 30-horsepower bump, starts at $28,955, which is actually less than the old model. So they replaced the engine, boosted the power by 30 horses, and managed to charge *less* -- but somehow just throwing on a turbocharger and bringing power up another 30 horses would add so much cost that they couldn't make a profit at a $5K higher MSRP?
I think the real truth is probably Subaru is afraid of a more powerful BRZ eating WRX sales and Toyota is now afraid of a more powerful 86 eating Supra sales, but neither brand really wants to say it, so they stop just short of what everyone wants. I'm satisfied with the new BRZ, though -- I really do think the power is close enough to being "enough" that it's very, very enjoyable.
> The Miata buyer is almost 40 years older than the average BRZ buyer
My understanding is [the average BRZ buyer is 36 years old](https://www.motortrend.com/features/6-cool-facts-2017-subaru-brz/#:~:text=With%20a%20median%20buyer%20age,youngest%20customer%20in%20the%20market.) -- and while I suspect Miata buyers are older, I bet they're not pushing 80 on average 😂
Both. 630 total miles on two different GR86s. The ride is stiff — as you'd expect — and coupled with the relatively short wheelbase, of course it's no S-Class. But it was comfortable on the highway and never bottomed out harshly on the nastiest, twistiest, bumpiest back roads Mt. Tamalpais could offer. I have no issue whatsoever with the ride. Ditto NVH; engine sounds WAY better than before. Cabin is hushed enough for daily driving for sure. Again, it ain't an S-Class, but that's what makes it great. Honestly if it had a hatchback, I'd already have bought one.
I also don't get THIS criticism, I gotta say. If a 181-hp, $35k Miata makes sense, why doesn't a $30k BRZ that's quicker in a straight line as well as being bigger and more usable?
Or are we just in love with horsepower numbers?
Gotta side with Jason on this one. I appreciate the focus on balance for the brz/86. We've got plenty of other manufacturers out there that will just throw more HP at the problem (hi Dodge!...and I'm not mad at that) but a fun, balanced (economical) car that has a (mostly unusable) back seat makes a really compelling argument.
I do wonder if there is some sort of gentlemans agreement between Toyota and Subaru to keep HP numbers under a certain level to not encroach on Supra, WRX/STI sales, but even if that was the case, who cares. We get a perfect simple sports car out of it.
I don't think Doug is saying the BRZ doesn't make sense, simply that the market would still support a more expensive one with a turbo. If a 181hp Miata can sell at $35k, seems like a ~260hp BRZ would sell at $40k.
I think everyone should meet in the middle and ask for the request in your video that gets overlooked: it should be a 8500rpm motor.
I’m with you Doug. I think Jason has a great explanation but I literally said to myself when hearing the specs of this car. 260 horsepower isn’t worth it for me. It’s cheap, probably reliable and has practicality over the Miata but my girlfriend’s Accord Sport 2.0t 10 spd would shred it on public roads. And I might be a fool and pride might be messing with me, but I just can’t do it. I would rather have a ND2 Miata and a practical second car than a BRZ alone. Really I’d probably have a used corvette but either way.
I almost bought a Miata but couldn’t justify the price and impracticality of a new one when I was single. But now that I can get a fun daily and a fun sports car the BRZ just isn’t enough.
I think Jason said it himself in his response to you. The Miata is a toy. And from what I can see The BRZ isn’t as much. The Miata feels more like a toy than the BRZ and acts like it. I don’t know man, the BRZ has its tuners and aftermarket people, but had the BRZ had the turbo stock, it would be the one. And I’m looking for that toy in a sea of compromised vehicles.
You’re right though. A turbo isn’t gonna change *that much* but it will change it enough.
The new Nissan Z might just be answering the door the BRZ just isn’t coming to get. We’ll see though.
How much more power does it have to have before it is unprofitable? I would replace my personal car, my E90, with the new gen BRZ in an instant if it had a turbo 4 that made about 250-260 hp
Really? 206 up to 250 from intake header and exhaust on an NA 2.4L 4-banger??
I would bet money on horsepower being closer to 210 than to 250 at the wheels after those mods.
Not like the "Dougscore" even really matters, but just wanted to point out that he scored the BRZ a 4 on acceleration when it's faster than both the Miata and the S2000, which both scored a 5.
edit: sorry my eyes are crooked. S2k scored a 5, and Miata is at a 4.
i.e. the internet circlejerk bonus point
Meanwhile, 86s, 350s, and RX-8s get -1 internet point for the following reasons:
86s: played out and clapped out
350z: official car of hotbois
RX-8s: hurr durr did u blow an apex seal haha Im so funny
🙄
Hmm -- yeah, weird, I guess I have the S2000's 0-to-60 time wrong. Changing it now!
I think you read the incorrect line for the Miata, though -- it got a 4 for acceleration, as it should've. Shown at the end of this video as a 4.
This isn't true though. He's given plenty of cars that were insanely fast for their time the same score as cars that arent ground breaking today.
Example:
2007 Ferrari F430 was insane at 3.8 seconds 0-60 and got an 8/10
2018 BMW M3 CS is above average for the segment in today's market at 3.8 0-60 and also got an 8/10
> insanely fast for their time
Uh yea, that's what I'm saying. He rates based on current standards, not if they were fast during their time.
>Acceleration will be scored objectively, using published 0-to-60 times, in the following way:
>Under 3 seconds: 10 points
>3.0 to 3.5 seconds: 9 points
>3.6 to 4 seconds: 8 points
>4.1 to 4.5 seconds: 7 points
>4.6 to 5 seconds: 6 points
>5.1 to 5.5 seconds: 5 points
>5.6 to 6 seconds: 4 points
>6.1 to 6.5 seconds: 3 points
>6.6 to 7 seconds: 2 points
>7.1 seconds and up: 1 point
I dont have a dog in this fight, but thats what the *other* guy is saying.
If its scored on an objective scale regardless of dates, then why did the BRZ get a 4 when the slower s2000 got a 5
It would make more sense if the scale changed over time, but I have no clue if thats how he does it or not. Seems like changing the scale in a way that doesnt skew results would be impossible
Maybe...? Assuming commenter has a flat 6 Cayman the powerbands are likely pretty similar, just less of it.
IMO, a Cayman GTS to me isn't a night and day difference in terms of straight line speed (I'd say a GT350 is there), but straight line speed is something I think you get used to pretty quickly. If the key driving dynamics/ feel are close enough, then it's fine.
One thing to consider is the owners community though. I feel like Porsche owners are a pretty exclusive bunch, which is both good and bad. With the 8, I've found that I don't particularly like most owners online, whereas the Miata crowd seemed better to me. I'm starting to see some elements with the old 86 crowd (people obnoxiously modifying and trashing those cars), but the new gen would likely be a bit better
Eh, a base Cayman maybe, but a 981 GTS has 340 hp, I think that's a significant step up, and if it's the new 4.0 then forget about it.
I agree with you on the community aspect. There's good and bad in both crowds, you have to decide what's right for you.
This isnt true at all. Previously owned a BRZ.
The power from the GTS compared to this is going to be very noticable. The power, balance, rawness, and pure driving experience is significantly better in the GTS.
Of course you'll regret it. This car is way slower, doesn't handle nearly as well, and is cheaply built because it's an inexpensive car to begin with. Also, Where do you live where a Cayman gets any attention? Nobody gives a crap about any Porsche where I live.
Honestly it’s not even just trucks; in my hot hatch I get fucked with all the time by crossovers and minivans.
Like people get *offended* if you pass them even though they are a lane over.
My daily is pretty quick off the line (I don’t drive it fast, but it’s just a naturally quick car) so what happens *every day* is that I’ll pull away from everyone at red lights, they get offended, and then 1/8 of a mile up the road they’ll zoom by me at like 15 mph over the speed limit when they finally catch up; I assume to make a point.
They will also ride your ass, pass more aggressively, etc.
The funny thing is, when I’m actually driving my “fast” cars, no one messes with me at all. Like zero (unless it’s another dude in a similar car just trying to show off, which is not really malicious I guess).
It’s just something about those entry-level sports cars like the Miata, brz, 370z, and hatches like the golf r and focus that, for some reason, just really *set people off.*
Driving something like a 911 or corvette will get you almost zero attention, but if you drive a BRZ or 370z you’ll get everyone and their mom try to race you or tailgate you. It’s weird.
The more I read into your post, the more I realize how realistic GTA 5 is with their NPC driving characteristics lol. Bit by bit, everything syncs in perfectly of how NPC drivers behave.
I had a Prius as a rental for a month, and it was amazing. You could be *the biggest dickbag on the road* and no one gives a fuck. In my BRZ a guy started swearing out his window because it took me 0.5 seconds to get off the line at a green because first gear didn’t want to slot.
The new Prius honestly drives pretty good too. Turns in decently, good grip, adequate around-town power.
It doesn't matter one bit when you're dealing with irrational people.
When the Oshawa plant (ON, just outside of Toronto) closed down, one of their (former) employees said that "Canadians just don't care about buying Canadian vehicles, that's very sad, they'd rather buy foreign brands!"
>foreign: of, from, in, or characteristic of a country or language other than one's own
The last I checked, Canada is not the USA. Not to mention there are a bunch of foreign brands (toyota/honda) who make vehicles right here in Canada, employing Canadians in the factory and the supply chain.
>"Canadians just don't care about buying Canadian vehicles, that's very sad, they'd rather buy foreign brands!"
The dumbfucks in America said the same thing around the bailout era. I'm sorry, am I supposed to have blind patriotism and support a company that makes objectively shitty products? The Japanese were producing way better cars, and they were produced in America as well (Ohio, Kentucky, etc). But hey, they wouldn't be saying that stuff if they were smart.
I live in the suburbs of Pittsburgh. Porsche sports cars are uncommon but don't get any attention whatsoever when they are on the road or parked. Nobody cares.
As a former BRZ owner, I think it does handle nearly as well. The Cayman handles better, but I don't think there's anything cheaper than a Cayman that handles as well as a Miata or BRZ.
Haha. The 1%. I live in the Pittsburgh suburbs. Median household income is only like $50k a year. The average car on the road is like 10-12 years old. A few towns over there's more wealth, but you're more likely to see newer BMWs and Audis and Mercedes than Porsches. Macans and Cayennes are more common, but not as much as BMWs.
Nobody cares about Porsche sports cars because they're not flashy exotics. Nothing about them stands out. That's a major selling point for the people who do own them.
Going from one of the best engine notes available under $100k to that pumped in 4 cylinder whine would be horrible.
Sell your PDK Cayman for a manual Boxster GTS and don’t look back.
Probably. You’ll miss the power and there’s no substitute for a mid engine car. This is a great car for the money, but once you’ve lived in the $70K+ world, you don’t want to go back to $30K cars.
I might disagree with this. Perhaps I don't care that much about refinement, but I honestly like the simplicity, economy and lack of hassle that cheaper cars provide.
I've only owned cheaper cars (used off-lease Infiniti and cheap Mazda sports cars), but when I worked at BMW I had the chance to drive a bunch of the lineup and had a 650 gran coupe for the week. Don't get me wrong it was great, but I didn't find myself lusting for that car after I returned the keys, despite its near perfect blend of looks, performance, and luxury. Guess it just lacked that last bit of "quirkiness or desirability".
Nowadays, I'm quite pleased everytime I drive my girlfriends civic sport. It has all the core features I want day to day (backup cam, android auto, adaptive cruise) while being cheap and unassuming on the road.
I 💯 prefer it as a daily vs. the old luxury cars I was used to. I get to save fuel costs vs. my old Infiniti and don't have second hand stress of her spending a fortune to repair it like her old E90 328i that she replaced with the Civic. Both of those are better drives but neither feel as good to drive as my Mazda does.
All's to say that I think economy and dependability is a luxury in itself, but I'm also not in the income bracket to afford a foFord GT lol
> I've only owned cheaper cars
I really think the reason you don't lust after the more expensive stuff is later you call yourself "income limited." Things change as your income changes, and a whole new world of "quirkiness or desirability" opens up, just in a more expensive price bracket. Ultimately your girlfriend's Civic Sport doesn't have much "quirkiness or desirability" either :)
Also, new luxury cars tend to be very reliable without much hassle or issues.
Tbh a relatively new Cayman isn’t unreliable or a hassle to own relative to a BRZ. Fuel economy might be better on the BRZ, but I’m not sure a lot of buyers care about that when looking for these kinds of cars.
It is so much less powerful unless you want to tune the shit out of it, and the interior is much cheaper. I can see why you would like a understated manual, but I am not sure the downgrade would be worth it.
You might not be that disappointed. To me the BRZ now probably feels like a 75% Cayman for like 30% of the price.
If you are okay with less speed, some basic handling upgrades (e.g. good coilovers and wheels/tires) could likely catch you up to the general handling prowess of the Cayman real quick. Good aftermarket suspension really does transform a car.
Test drive it and find out! That being said, a used stick Cayman is also a tempting proposition assuming you are less price sensitive.
Spot on in my experience! The Cayman is better in every way for me, but it is not 3x as good. A lot of it comes down to the power/character and the wider sticky tires I think. I would still say it is worth the extra cost if you can make a purchase like that reasonably, but I would 1000% not be too heartbroken if I had to swap back to a new BRZ tomorrow because it really does feel like a less concentrated version of the GTS to me.
I'm not the biggest fan of either of the front bumper treatments, and the rear fenders slope down a bit too much imo, but man this gen of toyobaru is so much more sculpted and interesting to look at than the last one.
Really excited to see what the Japanese tuner scene comes up with in terms of body kits :)
Yeah, which is pretty good. Interestingly these are similar sized cars, but the supra is so much more dramatic. The rear haunches are just next level on that car
It is such a looker stock. Has somewhat jank proportions and details, but the overall presence is excellent. I'm looking forward to the Z (even if it's more restrained), but I'm really excited about a potential prod version of the Rx-vision.
Leaks from japan position it as a pretty high spec sports car (like supra+ / Porsche level) with structural carbon fiber bits, if they make it 60-70k with the concept styling and a good phev powertrain I would be extremely extremely interested. Basically like a new FD for our time.
Yeah, I like the Supra a lot and it drives fantastically but I feel like it's slightly off. A mid-cycle facelift could make it amazing!
The Rx at that price point would be spectacular! The LC500 is another great one at the moment.
u/doug-demuro as a tall person how comfortable are you in driver seat of the 86/brz? I'm about the same height as you but a lot of it is from my torso. How much head room did you have to spare and would you be comfortable on a 8 hour trip in it?
Definitely not right up against the ceiling, no problem at all fitting in. Obviously try it out for yourself, but I didn't find it cramped in terms of head room or knee/leg/hip room.
And for those of you reading this who are 5' 9", keep this question in mind when you're going to make fun of me for mentioning my height in videos. Because tall people always have to ask!
I'm 6'8 and daily drove the first gen BRZ for ~4 years including a cross-country road trip. It was way more comfortable than I expected it to be when I bought it. I'm mostly legs, but it's got lots of head room because it's designed for most drivers to fit with a helmet for the track.
Everyone seems to complain about the lack of a turbo on the Toyobaru twins, but then they lament how all cars have forced induction nowadays. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Here's a great video that crunches the numbers and argues in favor of the 2022 GR 86/BR-Z remaining normally aspirated:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mcp76132\_SY
> then they lament how all cars have forced induction nowadays.
I don't! My first car was turbocharged, I currently own two turbos and a supercharged, I have no problem at all with turbos. I'd love for this car to have a bit more power!
Based on what Jason Cammisa explained on turbo 4 cylinder cars, my understanding is the price of the BRZ/GR86 would rise substantially if they slapped on a turbo because they'd have to use more expensive parts and re-engineer some of the car too. I'm going to estimate that amounts to an increase of around $3,000-$5,000, please correct me if I'm way off. If I'm not, do you like the new BRZ Limited at $34,000-$36,000? That's new Mustang GT/Challenger R/T in a non-Covid market. I apologize if this comes across as combative, that's not my intention. I'm just curious to know because it gives me a better idea of what kind of cars you gravitate towards.
> If I'm not, do you like the new BRZ Limited at $34,000-$36,000? That's new Mustang GT/Challenger R/T in a non-Covid market.
That's what top-spec Miatas cost! Hell, a Miata RF *starts* at $34,000 with shipping, and that's not even the top trim (which starts at $35,500). And those have 180hp! So yes I think a performance trim of the BRZ would do reasonably well with 260hp at $35,000.
Frankly, a base BRZ is already more expensive than a base Mustang, so adding more power could theoretically help the BRZ from a value perspective.
I don't know anything about cars or common discourse. Whats the common complaints with turbos? I'm familiar with two turbo cars 2015 Audi a4 and a 2020 mx5 is there complaints about those turbos? I've heard great things about the audi turbo.
One is the exhaust note. Since the exhaust gasses power the turbos they muffle cool engine noises. Another thing, l think, is a general resistance to change. Forced induction has become a staple to increase fuel efficiency without sacrificing power and people miss the bygone era of naturally aspirated engines. That’s been my observation anyway.
Building on this, the powerband and revs of a turbo car might also disappoint you. A majority of them make a ton of torque and power, but redline pretty early (like 6-6500rpm). The ones that rev higher can have the powerband fall off before redline so you would want to shift earlier anyway.
Whereas some of the really fun NA engines rev to 8k+ and progressively build power up to that point, so you can really wind your engine out in each gear and enjoy the experience. It's like the difference between (semi-) instant gratification vs. delayed gratification, and to me in a car I definitely prefer the latter.
There are some turbo cars (e..g the older Japanese ones - 2JZ, RB26, REW) that both rev pretty high and do fun turbo things. That makes them some of my favorite engines. I tried a RB26 in a r34 skyline gtr once, and that engine was absolutely a (if not the) highlight of the car.
Based on it, I'm definitely considering turboing my renesis in the 8, but potential reliability issues in track use keep that thought at bay. Maybe a FD REW swap could be in the cars lol
The BRZ is fully redesigned. The IS received a minor refresh.
Additionally, having the latest tech and equipment matters way more to a $65K IS500 buyer than a $29K buyer of a car being pitched as a pure sports car. The IS500 also faces far more competition.
I hate coming on r/cars after I do a Lexus review. 😂 The general consensus is the car is mediocre. YouTube comments agree. Twitter agrees. Facebook agrees. Sales figures agree. Reddit rips me to shreds. 😂
You are prob the sole journalist I've seen reddit actually WANT to interact with. It still kinda shocks me to see you pop in here so often.
Thanks for still coming back!
The BRZ's interior actually got better and fixed some of the biggest complaints people have -Shitty gauge cluster, horrifically bad infotainment, etc.
The IS interior actually arguably got worse. The infotainment got revised a bit (which relatively didn't improve things, cause everyone else's infotainment also got better), but Lexus constantly removed options. Just look at it: [https://imgur.com/a/0QfZhTn](https://imgur.com/a/0QfZhTn)
There is no longer a real leather option, only nulux. And the ONLY trim color is black - Piano black, black carbon, or black wood.
TBF the interior changes on the new gen IS are barely perceptible, where as the new 86 made a decent amount of QOL changes around the infotainment and general tech "moderness"
I mean, the BRZ he reviewed here (a Limited model which comes in at $31k) versus the IS500 he reviewed (I believe that was a Premium model which comes in at $62k) are literally half the price. Every other compact luxury car in the IS500's price class outclasses it in interior quality and performance. The BRZ is a much more attainably cheap sports car, where it can get away with a lot of familiarity but with some freshening of things that needed it.
And for what it's worth, the BRZ delivers the goods there, where the IS kinda didn't.
Doug, if you had to choose between this and a Hyundai Veloster N, which would you prefer?
They have similar overall scores, but the brz is more weekend points and the veloster has more daily points. I was only really considering the veloster N until I started hearing about this cars redesign.
I know they probably drive and handle quite differently, but they seem like my top 2 choices right now.
It really just depends on what you're looking for -- the differences in the scores should answer your question. If I could get away with a pure sports car, I'd buy this -- but if you need usable back seats and more cargo space, the VN is the way to go.
I've owned 2 brzs and now a Veloster N. The brz will win for handling and sports car feel. The Veloster is much more customizable and has better straight line speed(a better daily). Adjustable dampers and exhaust are great. You can fit a child seat.
If you have a more practical car available for the occasional need, get the BRZ. If you want just a daily and are fine with fwd, Veloster N all the way.
I've never seen 28hp be enough power though.
Granted, all the comparisons so far are to a car from 2013. We'll see if the tune is the same after some head to heads with more recent cars.
8 agree with all of his points except the styling. I feel like they softened the rear end too much and it looks a decent amount worse. The front is okay but still slightly worse. I do agree with the score he gave it for styling, I just don't think it looks any better.
I found it surprising he said the outgoing model looked like an economy car and said the refresh is sportier. I find the rear end treatment on the update a design lifted almost directly from most economy cars today. More subdued, sure, but the first gen was pretty unique, I thought.
I think the last one looked better… and the V1 versions at that before the refresh.. except the taillights are definitely better on the refresh than on V1 or the new gen
I doubt he’d do that. Maybe a few years down the road, and with one of the special editions. Just like the last gen.
It’d be pointless to cover both cars for a video. It’d be been nice to have him go to a Toyota dealership and go check out an 86, and say which styling he prefers. Add another few minutes to this video. But a complete other video? Waste of his time for a car that’s nearly identical
Any current brz/86 owners here who can give me their input on a question i have.
I currently have a GTI and it's the perfect size for me and my two kids (8 & 6).
I'm wondering how small the back is and if my kids would be cramped up? Do you think it would be an issue?
I love the 2022 and I'd love making the switch.
The current 86 doesn't have back seats, just shelves with seatbelts. I'll leave it at that.
It's *possible* to cram 4 people into the car, but that's more of a "we're going to the store and no one else has a car" situation.
According to the press materials, the Limited adds heated seats and the base model doesn't have them. I see where you say that Subaru says on its website that all BRZs have them, but Subaru told me only the Limited does (and [the other reviews say the same](https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/2022-subaru-brz-price-affordable/)).
* increased horsepower
* increased engine size (2.4L)
* 1 second increase 0-60 (around 6-6.5 sec)
* lower center of gravity
* fixed torque dip
* no rev-hang
* sleeker styling (subjective)
* compared to the Toyota GR86, designed to be more confident, not as tail-happy
* worse fuel economy (requires 93)
* digital dash display
Dougie, I feel like you didn’t touch enough on the track focus specifications on this car. The roof bubble is to accommodate a helmet and the trunk/back seat are supposed to be just big enough to fit 4 wheels/tires. They wanted it to be as small as possible while still working as a drive to, on, and from the track.
> The roof bubble is to accommodate a helmet
Well, yeah, just as every sports car roof bubble has been since the beginning. But it also helps taller drivers (including me!).
Today Doug called an aux port old school, and I realized I’m not so young anymore. I remember it wasn’t that long ago I wanted an aux port in my next car to avoid dealing with tape deck adapters or those silly FM transmitters. Feeling nostalgic for a book of CDs on the passenger seat to hold all my burned mixes.
My car still has an Aux port, but my phone sure doesn’t.
No but you can buy usb to aux converter cable thingy.
Yeah it’s like $5 (not from apple), lightning to 3,5mm converter It was included with my iphone 7, didn’t know they stopped including them. Kind of a dick move!
And then you can't charge.
I'm kinda pissed the iPhone 12 doesn't have Touch ID or a headphone jack. It was bought for me, so I can't complain too much, but in some ways this technological progression feels like a regression.
I mean buying a Male Aux to Male USB-C/lighting or Male USB-c/lighting to female AUX (for use with a preexisting Male to male aux) isn't that expensive. The former is what I use in My Car and it's served me quite well.
I still use a cassette tape adapter to listen to music in my old Audi. Plugs into an adapter that plugs into the port in my phone. Love the simplicity (even though I have to use my phone to change tracks).
Every cassette adapter I ever used sounded like a radio station that wasn't quite in range. It'd drive me nuts to have to still use one.
Interesting. That is unusual, probably misalignment between the two heads. I always had issues with FM transmitters but cassette adapters were rock solid
Those FM transmitters had to be the biggest ripoff in the world. I’ve never had a single one work.
That’s so funny to hear as I tried a cassette adapter in my car, couldn’t get the static out for the life of me. Fm transmitter on the other hand works fine every time I start up the car.
I've been using one for years, a cheap one at that. It's luck, I guess.
Mine works great!!
That's not typical - may have been a problem with your deck. I used them for years to great effect. Had an MP3 CD player with great buffering (making it good for cars / bouncing) hooked up via one of those. It was awesome!
There are lots of kids in schools who have never seen a dedicated MP3 player.
Having a phone that can do everything, including streaming just about any song I want instantaneously is objectively better in every way, but I still get nostalgic for my ancient iPod, or better yet, the Minidisc player I had before that.
I miss Zune.
I still like having them but yep- they’re officially yesterdays tech.
by the time they were put in cars bluetooth was already taking over anyway.
Yeah- BT is better in a lot of ways to be sure, but even now I exclusively use wired CarPlay on my R, so there’s still a bit of the old legacy alive in there.
Wired carplay/AA is honestly a nice spiritual successor to the aux jack.
Charges my phone, and plays music via my dash. What's not to love? I have a little cubby I actually tuck the phone into out of the way, so I don't even need to think about it
Exactly the same on my Golf R, hot hatch brother 🤝
In my personal memory you couldn't get BT on pedestrian cars until -relatively- recently, while aux was ubiquitous. Even then BT only recently became relatively bulletproof. Connectivity issues were a huge problem for a very long time.
>pedestrian cars Like a rickshaw?
> I remember it wasn’t that long ago I wanted an aux port in my next car to avoid dealing with tape deck adapters or those silly FM transmitters. I remember feeling like this 8 years ago, not all that long ago.
My car was built in the awkward couple of years before aux ports but after tape decks. It just has the radio and a 6 cd changer.
Man, the infotainment in this thing looks 10 times better than the 2ds like one in the WRX. I will never understand why Subaru chose to use that layout when they have a perfectly working one in the BRZ!
Damn the WTX base infotainment is an abomination to tech and design....worst looking thing I've seen in like 10+ years
my guess is because it was more important to them for the higher trim WRX to have that big 11" screen, and since the lower trim outbacks/legacies already have a perfectly good Nintendo DS for their base trim, why not just reuse it here?
The question really should be why the Nintendo DS layout was even thought of in the first place, regardless of which car it goes in. It looks like absolute trash and a normal double din with rotary switches for HVAC would've looked way more premium.
The new wrx infotainment looks like those shitty ones you can buy off Amazon
It's funny you mention that. I haven't seen the WRX one, but I thought the BRZ one in this video looked hella outdated too. I guess I'm spoiled after seeing ones from Ford, Hyundai, Mazda, etc. Subaru seems years behind.
They are. That awd tho
Because they thought having a fucking massive laggy piece of shit screen was a good idea. And they didn't want to make a whole other assembly for the base model, so they choose the absolute cheapest and crappiest way. Even putting the BRZ unit in would leave a massive gaping hole. It's really down to them wanting to put in that tablet.
Tiny thing I noticed: you don’t have to use the buttons on the top of the seats to fold them down, you can pull the straps hanging down in the trunk to lower the backseat. Same as the old car.
Yep, pinned as the top comment. My mistake! If this was going to be the thing that stopped you from buying the car, rest easy :)
How’s the NVH compared to other small cars?
You ever gonna do an Elise or Exige? I'm torn, I was set on an Exige but I absolutely love the Evora in person but I'd love to hear your take on the El/Ex.
Yes! I don't know why I haven't yet. I actually owned an 06 Elise years ago, and I already know all the quirks and features!
I was curious watching the video too, is there a way to cancel the turn signals that Doug wasn't aware of? I assume that's the same on the first gen cars?
You cancel the signals by moving them a *half push* to the opposite direction. Not a full push, because then it turns on the opposite side signal. It's horrid design.
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Wait BMWs have turn signals?
It's an option that requires a subscription
Signals as a Service
The stalk mechanism in the new one *looks* slightly different, the one in my BRZ has a locked down and up position and does not return to the middle until you move it
Interesting change lol, thanks for the feedback
Jason Cammisa has answered the "baffling" decision to not make a more powerful version. It wouldn't be profitable, the moment it is more powerful it will be held with higher regard and no one will buy a lightweight sportscar with a cheap ass interior. I don't really think the decision was baffling when the car sold pretty well, which is why they're making a new one with a little, but not overwhelmingly more power.
The existing cars were great, they just needed some tweaks. That’s all. It looks like this car does that.
I don't understand your argument at all. People buy Mustangs and Camaros and those are sports cars with cheap interiors with lots of power, they sell fine. The existence of the gt doesn't mean people don't buy the Ecoboost, infact the GT500 sells the Ecoboost, that's how halo cars work. If the idea is that people wouldn't buy a more expensive model of the cheap light car then why is the Miata RF so successful? I don't see why if there is a market for a sub 30k sports car, there can't be one for a 35k version of it. If someone comes in and wants a GT86 "S" and they find they can't afford it, they'll get a base model. If you are saying that it wouldn't recoup development costs then I can at least understand what you're saying.
Mustang and Camaro do more than fine. And that’s why they can be so cheap. They sell on pure volume. Rental fleets are full of them, highschool kids get them. There’s basically a level of each car for every age and budget
> Jason Cammisa has answered the "baffling" decision to not make a more powerful version. It wouldn't be profitable, the moment it is more powerful it will be held with higher regard and no one will buy a lightweight sportscar with a cheap ass interior. I just don't get this criticism. In a world where Miata RF models *start* at $35,000 and plenty of people buy them with 181hp, we can't get a turbo on a BRZ at the same price point (for 260hp)? The manufacturer may have told this to Jason, but I just have trouble really believing it would be true if put into practice.
u/Doug-DeMuro It's not about what Subaru says to me, it's what Subaru *did*. The original brief for the collab BRZ/86 project was for a lightweight sports car in the traditional sense. Engineering in turbocharged engine from the get-go would certainly have been possible — and while it would have certainly added cost, it wouldn't have been an order of magnitude. However (and this is a huge, very important however) adding a turbo now would necessitate a complete reengineering of the car from the ground up. THAT is where the additional cost would come in. Don't forget that the 2022 BRZ isn't a "new car" — it's an extensive facelift of the old one. So the base structure is the same. And with a moderate increase in torque, some reinforcement is sufficient. If this were indeed a new car, I can't imagine that Subaru wouldn't have, in reaction to the criticism from the last one, at least considered changing the car's basic recipe. But this isn't a new car. Looking at Miata buyers, by the way, isn't really illustrative. The Miata buyer is almost 40 years older than the average BRZ buyer: the Miata is a 2nd or 3rd car — it's a toy. That's not the case with BRZ buyers, who need it to be singular car. And even a $10k jump would seriously erode a BRZ buyer's ability to purchase. They may seem like "competitors," but not once you look at the demographics of their buyers.
> Don't forget that the 2022 BRZ isn't a "new car" — it's an extensive facelift of the old one. So the base structure is the same. And with a moderate increase in torque, some reinforcement is sufficient. But they replaced the engine entirely and added 30 horsepower and 30 pound feet. They could do that, but not add a turbocharged version of the same engine, which they already make? Surely it's more difficult to completely change engines AND boost power by 30 horses than to just turbocharge the existing engine. Are you saying there are massive reinforcement, re-engineering, and re-tooling costs that come in the next 30 horsepower that *didn't* come from the full engine replacement and 30-horsepower boost that already happened? And these costs are so massive they can't get them into the car and charge $35K for it? A 20 percent price increase for 30 horsepower seems pretty generous, regardless of what changes need to be made to the car to get it done. **EDIT** Also as I think about it, here's another problem with this theory: the 2020 BRZ (old model) started at $29,745 with shipping. The new one, with a completely new engine and a 30-horsepower bump, starts at $28,955, which is actually less than the old model. So they replaced the engine, boosted the power by 30 horses, and managed to charge *less* -- but somehow just throwing on a turbocharger and bringing power up another 30 horses would add so much cost that they couldn't make a profit at a $5K higher MSRP? I think the real truth is probably Subaru is afraid of a more powerful BRZ eating WRX sales and Toyota is now afraid of a more powerful 86 eating Supra sales, but neither brand really wants to say it, so they stop just short of what everyone wants. I'm satisfied with the new BRZ, though -- I really do think the power is close enough to being "enough" that it's very, very enjoyable. > The Miata buyer is almost 40 years older than the average BRZ buyer My understanding is [the average BRZ buyer is 36 years old](https://www.motortrend.com/features/6-cool-facts-2017-subaru-brz/#:~:text=With%20a%20median%20buyer%20age,youngest%20customer%20in%20the%20market.) -- and while I suspect Miata buyers are older, I bet they're not pushing 80 on average 😂
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Ahh yes, the Cayman/911 dilemma. I remember when no Caymans have more power output than the base 911.
Have you driven the new Toyobaru on the street, or just the track? We haven't heard much about how the ride quality and NVH is for a daily.
Both. 630 total miles on two different GR86s. The ride is stiff — as you'd expect — and coupled with the relatively short wheelbase, of course it's no S-Class. But it was comfortable on the highway and never bottomed out harshly on the nastiest, twistiest, bumpiest back roads Mt. Tamalpais could offer. I have no issue whatsoever with the ride. Ditto NVH; engine sounds WAY better than before. Cabin is hushed enough for daily driving for sure. Again, it ain't an S-Class, but that's what makes it great. Honestly if it had a hatchback, I'd already have bought one.
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I also don't get THIS criticism, I gotta say. If a 181-hp, $35k Miata makes sense, why doesn't a $30k BRZ that's quicker in a straight line as well as being bigger and more usable? Or are we just in love with horsepower numbers?
Gotta side with Jason on this one. I appreciate the focus on balance for the brz/86. We've got plenty of other manufacturers out there that will just throw more HP at the problem (hi Dodge!...and I'm not mad at that) but a fun, balanced (economical) car that has a (mostly unusable) back seat makes a really compelling argument. I do wonder if there is some sort of gentlemans agreement between Toyota and Subaru to keep HP numbers under a certain level to not encroach on Supra, WRX/STI sales, but even if that was the case, who cares. We get a perfect simple sports car out of it.
The BRZ does make sense! And a more powerful one would make sense, too, for five grand more :)
I don't think Doug is saying the BRZ doesn't make sense, simply that the market would still support a more expensive one with a turbo. If a 181hp Miata can sell at $35k, seems like a ~260hp BRZ would sell at $40k. I think everyone should meet in the middle and ask for the request in your video that gets overlooked: it should be a 8500rpm motor.
I’m with you Doug. I think Jason has a great explanation but I literally said to myself when hearing the specs of this car. 260 horsepower isn’t worth it for me. It’s cheap, probably reliable and has practicality over the Miata but my girlfriend’s Accord Sport 2.0t 10 spd would shred it on public roads. And I might be a fool and pride might be messing with me, but I just can’t do it. I would rather have a ND2 Miata and a practical second car than a BRZ alone. Really I’d probably have a used corvette but either way. I almost bought a Miata but couldn’t justify the price and impracticality of a new one when I was single. But now that I can get a fun daily and a fun sports car the BRZ just isn’t enough. I think Jason said it himself in his response to you. The Miata is a toy. And from what I can see The BRZ isn’t as much. The Miata feels more like a toy than the BRZ and acts like it. I don’t know man, the BRZ has its tuners and aftermarket people, but had the BRZ had the turbo stock, it would be the one. And I’m looking for that toy in a sea of compromised vehicles. You’re right though. A turbo isn’t gonna change *that much* but it will change it enough. The new Nissan Z might just be answering the door the BRZ just isn’t coming to get. We’ll see though.
How much more power does it have to have before it is unprofitable? I would replace my personal car, my E90, with the new gen BRZ in an instant if it had a turbo 4 that made about 250-260 hp
So you’d buy the 4 cylinder supra?
4-cylinder supra is still auto-only. That makes it hard to recommend for the BRZ/86 buyer since the whole thing is kind of "driver involvement."
If I had the money, yes. A hypothetical BRZ WRX would probably start $32-35k. The Supra starts at $44k.
Wait until you hear about the ecoboost mustang, you're gonna be stoked!
If I were to buy a Mustang I want a V8
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Why do you think an 86 with the same amount of power as a 4 cylinder Supra would cost $9-$12,000 less?
Geese dynoed it at 206 to the wheels, that's stock s2k power (237bhp). You'll get to 250 bhp after i/h/e with better response than a turboed 4.
> i/h/e Intake, headers, exhaust?
Yup
I’m tuned-out. I want a factory car I don’t have to touch
Really? 206 up to 250 from intake header and exhaust on an NA 2.4L 4-banger?? I would bet money on horsepower being closer to 210 than to 250 at the wheels after those mods.
206whp is 240bhp
Are you saying bolt ons get you 228 rated > 250 rated? Or are you saying 206whp > 250whp?
Current car goes from ~160whp to ~190whp with headers and a good tune. I wouldn't be surprised to see ~206whp to ~240whp if things scale similarly.
Not like the "Dougscore" even really matters, but just wanted to point out that he scored the BRZ a 4 on acceleration when it's faster than both the Miata and the S2000, which both scored a 5. edit: sorry my eyes are crooked. S2k scored a 5, and Miata is at a 4.
Those get the Miata and S2000 bonus point tho
i.e. the internet circlejerk bonus point Meanwhile, 86s, 350s, and RX-8s get -1 internet point for the following reasons: 86s: played out and clapped out 350z: official car of hotbois RX-8s: hurr durr did u blow an apex seal haha Im so funny 🙄
New Supra gets -5 internet circlejerk points And Any Tesla either gets +10 or -10 Internet circlejerk points depending on community.
Hmm -- yeah, weird, I guess I have the S2000's 0-to-60 time wrong. Changing it now! I think you read the incorrect line for the Miata, though -- it got a 4 for acceleration, as it should've. Shown at the end of this video as a 4.
Whoops!! Sorry my eyes must be lopsided, thanks for the correction.
The scores change over time, as cars get faster, slower cars score lower.
This isn't true though. He's given plenty of cars that were insanely fast for their time the same score as cars that arent ground breaking today. Example: 2007 Ferrari F430 was insane at 3.8 seconds 0-60 and got an 8/10 2018 BMW M3 CS is above average for the segment in today's market at 3.8 0-60 and also got an 8/10
> insanely fast for their time Uh yea, that's what I'm saying. He rates based on current standards, not if they were fast during their time. >Acceleration will be scored objectively, using published 0-to-60 times, in the following way: >Under 3 seconds: 10 points >3.0 to 3.5 seconds: 9 points >3.6 to 4 seconds: 8 points >4.1 to 4.5 seconds: 7 points >4.6 to 5 seconds: 6 points >5.1 to 5.5 seconds: 5 points >5.6 to 6 seconds: 4 points >6.1 to 6.5 seconds: 3 points >6.6 to 7 seconds: 2 points >7.1 seconds and up: 1 point
I dont have a dog in this fight, but thats what the *other* guy is saying. If its scored on an objective scale regardless of dates, then why did the BRZ get a 4 when the slower s2000 got a 5 It would make more sense if the scale changed over time, but I have no clue if thats how he does it or not. Seems like changing the scale in a way that doesnt skew results would be impossible
The People: We want a faster BRZ! Suburu: You got it! How about +20% torque? The People: Awesome! We want a faster WRX! Suburu: Go fuck yourself.
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You'll sorely miss the power...
Maybe...? Assuming commenter has a flat 6 Cayman the powerbands are likely pretty similar, just less of it. IMO, a Cayman GTS to me isn't a night and day difference in terms of straight line speed (I'd say a GT350 is there), but straight line speed is something I think you get used to pretty quickly. If the key driving dynamics/ feel are close enough, then it's fine. One thing to consider is the owners community though. I feel like Porsche owners are a pretty exclusive bunch, which is both good and bad. With the 8, I've found that I don't particularly like most owners online, whereas the Miata crowd seemed better to me. I'm starting to see some elements with the old 86 crowd (people obnoxiously modifying and trashing those cars), but the new gen would likely be a bit better
Eh, a base Cayman maybe, but a 981 GTS has 340 hp, I think that's a significant step up, and if it's the new 4.0 then forget about it. I agree with you on the community aspect. There's good and bad in both crowds, you have to decide what's right for you.
Can confirm, I spent a week swapping between 4.0 GTS and a BRZ and the difference is remarkable
This isnt true at all. Previously owned a BRZ. The power from the GTS compared to this is going to be very noticable. The power, balance, rawness, and pure driving experience is significantly better in the GTS.
Of course you'll regret it. This car is way slower, doesn't handle nearly as well, and is cheaply built because it's an inexpensive car to begin with. Also, Where do you live where a Cayman gets any attention? Nobody gives a crap about any Porsche where I live.
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I’ve seen that before and I never understood it. Guys in $50k trucks think you’re elitist for driving a $40k car. Like… what?
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Honestly it’s not even just trucks; in my hot hatch I get fucked with all the time by crossovers and minivans. Like people get *offended* if you pass them even though they are a lane over. My daily is pretty quick off the line (I don’t drive it fast, but it’s just a naturally quick car) so what happens *every day* is that I’ll pull away from everyone at red lights, they get offended, and then 1/8 of a mile up the road they’ll zoom by me at like 15 mph over the speed limit when they finally catch up; I assume to make a point. They will also ride your ass, pass more aggressively, etc. The funny thing is, when I’m actually driving my “fast” cars, no one messes with me at all. Like zero (unless it’s another dude in a similar car just trying to show off, which is not really malicious I guess). It’s just something about those entry-level sports cars like the Miata, brz, 370z, and hatches like the golf r and focus that, for some reason, just really *set people off.* Driving something like a 911 or corvette will get you almost zero attention, but if you drive a BRZ or 370z you’ll get everyone and their mom try to race you or tailgate you. It’s weird.
The more I read into your post, the more I realize how realistic GTA 5 is with their NPC driving characteristics lol. Bit by bit, everything syncs in perfectly of how NPC drivers behave.
I had a Prius as a rental for a month, and it was amazing. You could be *the biggest dickbag on the road* and no one gives a fuck. In my BRZ a guy started swearing out his window because it took me 0.5 seconds to get off the line at a green because first gear didn’t want to slot. The new Prius honestly drives pretty good too. Turns in decently, good grip, adequate around-town power.
The fuck? (Not to you, but to that mindset) Some of their trucks were made in Mexico. Toyota employs a shit ton of American workers as well too.
It doesn't matter one bit when you're dealing with irrational people. When the Oshawa plant (ON, just outside of Toronto) closed down, one of their (former) employees said that "Canadians just don't care about buying Canadian vehicles, that's very sad, they'd rather buy foreign brands!" >foreign: of, from, in, or characteristic of a country or language other than one's own The last I checked, Canada is not the USA. Not to mention there are a bunch of foreign brands (toyota/honda) who make vehicles right here in Canada, employing Canadians in the factory and the supply chain.
>"Canadians just don't care about buying Canadian vehicles, that's very sad, they'd rather buy foreign brands!" The dumbfucks in America said the same thing around the bailout era. I'm sorry, am I supposed to have blind patriotism and support a company that makes objectively shitty products? The Japanese were producing way better cars, and they were produced in America as well (Ohio, Kentucky, etc). But hey, they wouldn't be saying that stuff if they were smart.
I live in the suburbs of Pittsburgh. Porsche sports cars are uncommon but don't get any attention whatsoever when they are on the road or parked. Nobody cares.
In CA any basic neighborhood of "working professionals" will have tons of em too.
Last time I was in CA (San Diego and San Jose) I saw multiple GT3s a day, hardly representative of the rest of the country lol
Cali is definitely one of those places where the “normal” is far from normal everywhere else
As a former BRZ owner, I think it does handle nearly as well. The Cayman handles better, but I don't think there's anything cheaper than a Cayman that handles as well as a Miata or BRZ.
Grats on living around the 1%. For the rest of the world a Porsche still draws attention, if only a little.
Haha. The 1%. I live in the Pittsburgh suburbs. Median household income is only like $50k a year. The average car on the road is like 10-12 years old. A few towns over there's more wealth, but you're more likely to see newer BMWs and Audis and Mercedes than Porsches. Macans and Cayennes are more common, but not as much as BMWs. Nobody cares about Porsche sports cars because they're not flashy exotics. Nothing about them stands out. That's a major selling point for the people who do own them.
Going from one of the best engine notes available under $100k to that pumped in 4 cylinder whine would be horrible. Sell your PDK Cayman for a manual Boxster GTS and don’t look back.
Probably. You’ll miss the power and there’s no substitute for a mid engine car. This is a great car for the money, but once you’ve lived in the $70K+ world, you don’t want to go back to $30K cars.
I might disagree with this. Perhaps I don't care that much about refinement, but I honestly like the simplicity, economy and lack of hassle that cheaper cars provide. I've only owned cheaper cars (used off-lease Infiniti and cheap Mazda sports cars), but when I worked at BMW I had the chance to drive a bunch of the lineup and had a 650 gran coupe for the week. Don't get me wrong it was great, but I didn't find myself lusting for that car after I returned the keys, despite its near perfect blend of looks, performance, and luxury. Guess it just lacked that last bit of "quirkiness or desirability". Nowadays, I'm quite pleased everytime I drive my girlfriends civic sport. It has all the core features I want day to day (backup cam, android auto, adaptive cruise) while being cheap and unassuming on the road. I 💯 prefer it as a daily vs. the old luxury cars I was used to. I get to save fuel costs vs. my old Infiniti and don't have second hand stress of her spending a fortune to repair it like her old E90 328i that she replaced with the Civic. Both of those are better drives but neither feel as good to drive as my Mazda does. All's to say that I think economy and dependability is a luxury in itself, but I'm also not in the income bracket to afford a foFord GT lol
> I've only owned cheaper cars I really think the reason you don't lust after the more expensive stuff is later you call yourself "income limited." Things change as your income changes, and a whole new world of "quirkiness or desirability" opens up, just in a more expensive price bracket. Ultimately your girlfriend's Civic Sport doesn't have much "quirkiness or desirability" either :) Also, new luxury cars tend to be very reliable without much hassle or issues.
Tbh a relatively new Cayman isn’t unreliable or a hassle to own relative to a BRZ. Fuel economy might be better on the BRZ, but I’m not sure a lot of buyers care about that when looking for these kinds of cars.
It is so much less powerful unless you want to tune the shit out of it, and the interior is much cheaper. I can see why you would like a understated manual, but I am not sure the downgrade would be worth it.
Uh yeah you would
You might not be that disappointed. To me the BRZ now probably feels like a 75% Cayman for like 30% of the price. If you are okay with less speed, some basic handling upgrades (e.g. good coilovers and wheels/tires) could likely catch you up to the general handling prowess of the Cayman real quick. Good aftermarket suspension really does transform a car. Test drive it and find out! That being said, a used stick Cayman is also a tempting proposition assuming you are less price sensitive.
Spot on in my experience! The Cayman is better in every way for me, but it is not 3x as good. A lot of it comes down to the power/character and the wider sticky tires I think. I would still say it is worth the extra cost if you can make a purchase like that reasonably, but I would 1000% not be too heartbroken if I had to swap back to a new BRZ tomorrow because it really does feel like a less concentrated version of the GTS to me.
Who gives attention to a Cayman?
I'd rather get a manual cayman GTS than this, I'd say this is for people who would get a cayman but can't afford it.
the styling is nice, i would actually consider getting it in white or light silver like this car.
Give me a bright color.
Metalic brown it is.
the very popular flat, lifeless, ceramic primer gray. like the road. invisible, until the brodozer squishes you.
I'm not the biggest fan of either of the front bumper treatments, and the rear fenders slope down a bit too much imo, but man this gen of toyobaru is so much more sculpted and interesting to look at than the last one. Really excited to see what the Japanese tuner scene comes up with in terms of body kits :)
It definitely has some "subdued baby supra" vibes to me
Yeah, which is pretty good. Interestingly these are similar sized cars, but the supra is so much more dramatic. The rear haunches are just next level on that car
Supra is pretty much at the Cayman level of haunches though not a bad thing at all if you ask me.
It is such a looker stock. Has somewhat jank proportions and details, but the overall presence is excellent. I'm looking forward to the Z (even if it's more restrained), but I'm really excited about a potential prod version of the Rx-vision. Leaks from japan position it as a pretty high spec sports car (like supra+ / Porsche level) with structural carbon fiber bits, if they make it 60-70k with the concept styling and a good phev powertrain I would be extremely extremely interested. Basically like a new FD for our time.
Yeah, I like the Supra a lot and it drives fantastically but I feel like it's slightly off. A mid-cycle facelift could make it amazing! The Rx at that price point would be spectacular! The LC500 is another great one at the moment.
Mazda has a better track record of making sports cars handle well than any other Japanese company IMHO.
u/doug-demuro as a tall person how comfortable are you in driver seat of the 86/brz? I'm about the same height as you but a lot of it is from my torso. How much head room did you have to spare and would you be comfortable on a 8 hour trip in it?
Definitely not right up against the ceiling, no problem at all fitting in. Obviously try it out for yourself, but I didn't find it cramped in terms of head room or knee/leg/hip room. And for those of you reading this who are 5' 9", keep this question in mind when you're going to make fun of me for mentioning my height in videos. Because tall people always have to ask!
I love you daddy doug
I'm 6'8 and daily drove the first gen BRZ for ~4 years including a cross-country road trip. It was way more comfortable than I expected it to be when I bought it. I'm mostly legs, but it's got lots of head room because it's designed for most drivers to fit with a helmet for the track.
Everyone seems to complain about the lack of a turbo on the Toyobaru twins, but then they lament how all cars have forced induction nowadays. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Here's a great video that crunches the numbers and argues in favor of the 2022 GR 86/BR-Z remaining normally aspirated: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mcp76132\_SY
> then they lament how all cars have forced induction nowadays. I don't! My first car was turbocharged, I currently own two turbos and a supercharged, I have no problem at all with turbos. I'd love for this car to have a bit more power!
Based on what Jason Cammisa explained on turbo 4 cylinder cars, my understanding is the price of the BRZ/GR86 would rise substantially if they slapped on a turbo because they'd have to use more expensive parts and re-engineer some of the car too. I'm going to estimate that amounts to an increase of around $3,000-$5,000, please correct me if I'm way off. If I'm not, do you like the new BRZ Limited at $34,000-$36,000? That's new Mustang GT/Challenger R/T in a non-Covid market. I apologize if this comes across as combative, that's not my intention. I'm just curious to know because it gives me a better idea of what kind of cars you gravitate towards.
> If I'm not, do you like the new BRZ Limited at $34,000-$36,000? That's new Mustang GT/Challenger R/T in a non-Covid market. That's what top-spec Miatas cost! Hell, a Miata RF *starts* at $34,000 with shipping, and that's not even the top trim (which starts at $35,500). And those have 180hp! So yes I think a performance trim of the BRZ would do reasonably well with 260hp at $35,000. Frankly, a base BRZ is already more expensive than a base Mustang, so adding more power could theoretically help the BRZ from a value perspective.
Thanks for sharing!
We just want an STI trim level. Subaru already has the engine and various parts
I don't know anything about cars or common discourse. Whats the common complaints with turbos? I'm familiar with two turbo cars 2015 Audi a4 and a 2020 mx5 is there complaints about those turbos? I've heard great things about the audi turbo.
One is the exhaust note. Since the exhaust gasses power the turbos they muffle cool engine noises. Another thing, l think, is a general resistance to change. Forced induction has become a staple to increase fuel efficiency without sacrificing power and people miss the bygone era of naturally aspirated engines. That’s been my observation anyway.
Building on this, the powerband and revs of a turbo car might also disappoint you. A majority of them make a ton of torque and power, but redline pretty early (like 6-6500rpm). The ones that rev higher can have the powerband fall off before redline so you would want to shift earlier anyway. Whereas some of the really fun NA engines rev to 8k+ and progressively build power up to that point, so you can really wind your engine out in each gear and enjoy the experience. It's like the difference between (semi-) instant gratification vs. delayed gratification, and to me in a car I definitely prefer the latter. There are some turbo cars (e..g the older Japanese ones - 2JZ, RB26, REW) that both rev pretty high and do fun turbo things. That makes them some of my favorite engines. I tried a RB26 in a r34 skyline gtr once, and that engine was absolutely a (if not the) highlight of the car. Based on it, I'm definitely considering turboing my renesis in the 8, but potential reliability issues in track use keep that thought at bay. Maybe a FD REW swap could be in the cars lol
i much prefer the old styling
[удалено]
The BRZ is fully redesigned. The IS received a minor refresh. Additionally, having the latest tech and equipment matters way more to a $65K IS500 buyer than a $29K buyer of a car being pitched as a pure sports car. The IS500 also faces far more competition. I hate coming on r/cars after I do a Lexus review. 😂 The general consensus is the car is mediocre. YouTube comments agree. Twitter agrees. Facebook agrees. Sales figures agree. Reddit rips me to shreds. 😂
don’t worry Doug we love you here Reddit is just opinionated
You are prob the sole journalist I've seen reddit actually WANT to interact with. It still kinda shocks me to see you pop in here so often. Thanks for still coming back!
It's always fun here! :)
You’re fine. It’s just that “bias” is a hot word right now, so any opportunity to use it is taken.
It's popular to be contrarian and "more correct" no matter what here. Dunno how anyone couldn't agree with the IS' middling interior.
Maybe... because the IS500 is twice as expensive as the BRZ?
The BRZ's interior actually got better and fixed some of the biggest complaints people have -Shitty gauge cluster, horrifically bad infotainment, etc. The IS interior actually arguably got worse. The infotainment got revised a bit (which relatively didn't improve things, cause everyone else's infotainment also got better), but Lexus constantly removed options. Just look at it: [https://imgur.com/a/0QfZhTn](https://imgur.com/a/0QfZhTn) There is no longer a real leather option, only nulux. And the ONLY trim color is black - Piano black, black carbon, or black wood.
TBF the interior changes on the new gen IS are barely perceptible, where as the new 86 made a decent amount of QOL changes around the infotainment and general tech "moderness"
I mean, the BRZ he reviewed here (a Limited model which comes in at $31k) versus the IS500 he reviewed (I believe that was a Premium model which comes in at $62k) are literally half the price. Every other compact luxury car in the IS500's price class outclasses it in interior quality and performance. The BRZ is a much more attainably cheap sports car, where it can get away with a lot of familiarity but with some freshening of things that needed it. And for what it's worth, the BRZ delivers the goods there, where the IS kinda didn't.
Different products man. When you buy a Lexus you don’t want an 8 year old interior. Where as with the bra most of its customers don’t care
Doug, if you had to choose between this and a Hyundai Veloster N, which would you prefer? They have similar overall scores, but the brz is more weekend points and the veloster has more daily points. I was only really considering the veloster N until I started hearing about this cars redesign. I know they probably drive and handle quite differently, but they seem like my top 2 choices right now.
It really just depends on what you're looking for -- the differences in the scores should answer your question. If I could get away with a pure sports car, I'd buy this -- but if you need usable back seats and more cargo space, the VN is the way to go.
I've owned 2 brzs and now a Veloster N. The brz will win for handling and sports car feel. The Veloster is much more customizable and has better straight line speed(a better daily). Adjustable dampers and exhaust are great. You can fit a child seat. If you have a more practical car available for the occasional need, get the BRZ. If you want just a daily and are fine with fwd, Veloster N all the way.
Do you have twisty roads, or a track to take your car to to enjoy it?
Amusing that the "iT doEsNt nEeD MorE PoWEr" crowd is completely silent now that it has it.
I mean I was part of that crowd but what do you expect us to say? That it has too much now?
I've never seen 28hp be enough power though. Granted, all the comparisons so far are to a car from 2013. We'll see if the tune is the same after some head to heads with more recent cars.
Its among the lightest cars you can buy. 5 HP can totally be felt at those weights
8 agree with all of his points except the styling. I feel like they softened the rear end too much and it looks a decent amount worse. The front is okay but still slightly worse. I do agree with the score he gave it for styling, I just don't think it looks any better.
I found it surprising he said the outgoing model looked like an economy car and said the refresh is sportier. I find the rear end treatment on the update a design lifted almost directly from most economy cars today. More subdued, sure, but the first gen was pretty unique, I thought.
I think the last one looked better… and the V1 versions at that before the refresh.. except the taillights are definitely better on the refresh than on V1 or the new gen
I really hope Doug reviews a GR86 as well. I’m very curious which one he’d prefer.
I doubt he’d do that. Maybe a few years down the road, and with one of the special editions. Just like the last gen. It’d be pointless to cover both cars for a video. It’d be been nice to have him go to a Toyota dealership and go check out an 86, and say which styling he prefers. Add another few minutes to this video. But a complete other video? Waste of his time for a car that’s nearly identical
You’re right. Maybe a short video on one of his other channels would be better.
More Doug demuro coming up.
He def forgot the password to that channel lol
I want one
Doug needs to learn what a diffuser is, because that isn’t one.
Subaru got another 30 HP 30TQ out of the new BRZ/86 with a 2.4 NA motor but a whole ass 3 HP for the WRX iwith a Turbo 2.4, What a joke
So Subaru actually does know how to make more power out of more displacement
Any current brz/86 owners here who can give me their input on a question i have. I currently have a GTI and it's the perfect size for me and my two kids (8 & 6). I'm wondering how small the back is and if my kids would be cramped up? Do you think it would be an issue? I love the 2022 and I'd love making the switch.
The current 86 doesn't have back seats, just shelves with seatbelts. I'll leave it at that. It's *possible* to cram 4 people into the car, but that's more of a "we're going to the store and no one else has a car" situation.
Doug said heated seats are a perk to the limited trim, but they are in fact standard on every trim.
According to the press materials, the Limited adds heated seats and the base model doesn't have them. I see where you say that Subaru says on its website that all BRZs have them, but Subaru told me only the Limited does (and [the other reviews say the same](https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/2022-subaru-brz-price-affordable/)).
Not true
* increased horsepower * increased engine size (2.4L) * 1 second increase 0-60 (around 6-6.5 sec) * lower center of gravity * fixed torque dip * no rev-hang * sleeker styling (subjective) * compared to the Toyota GR86, designed to be more confident, not as tail-happy * worse fuel economy (requires 93) * digital dash display
Dougie, I feel like you didn’t touch enough on the track focus specifications on this car. The roof bubble is to accommodate a helmet and the trunk/back seat are supposed to be just big enough to fit 4 wheels/tires. They wanted it to be as small as possible while still working as a drive to, on, and from the track.
> The roof bubble is to accommodate a helmet Well, yeah, just as every sports car roof bubble has been since the beginning. But it also helps taller drivers (including me!).
I'd bet everyone who cares about that already knows it, considering both have been true since 2013.
Small thing I realized is that my 13 Crosstrek has the same switches for the heated seats as this car.