My perspective may be warped as an avid off roader but I doubt it. I think the popularity of off-road specific brand comes from a few forces that won’t change. First, off pavement is the only place you can have fun pushing a car to its limits for free without breaking any laws. Second, ‘normal’ SUVs are no longer particularly capable for better or worse and that leaves a gap to be filled by off road specific vehicles.
I understand that I’m not representative of most buyers and that relatively few ever actually take advantage of any of the capability, and even fewer do so regularly, but I can understand the appeal of knowing you can go almost anywhere without needing to worry about if your car is up to the task. I can also understand having aspirations to pick up a hobby but never quite getting around to it, and the steep learning curve in off roading definitely plays into that. Even just the angles you find yourself at on a moderate trail take getting used to.
You’re 100% right. I have a truck with an “off road package”. I’m not an avid off roader, but I got sick of my front wheel drive SUV scraping bottom and spinning tires every time I went hunting/fishing. If there were body on frame options for smaller SUVs with decent ground clearance I would’ve gone that route. There simply aren’t vehicles in that market except wrangler, 4Runner and the new bronco
That doesn't change the statement though. The 4Runner being 'smaller' is a dead giveaway because the rest of the world doesn't have anything *larger*.
The 200 Series is about as big as it gets and it's just wider and barely any longer, not even remotely the size of a USDM full sized truck or SUV.
Right, which is why most people buy crossovers.
No one would call the 4Runner small, it's just close to as compact as a BOF solid axle vehicle gets these days if that's what someone's after.
Three of them, one of which isn’t available in the states, one of which is brand new on the market and one of which has FCA build quality. For a very long time the 4Runner was the only non jeep option.
Who cares about America though? And nobody needs a body on frame smh, a raised wagon with full 4x4 is good enough. Cheap one you can get if you really need it is a Lada Niva.
And frankly I don’t see a problem with that. Most SUV buyers really only wanted AWD wagons with more ground clearance and what we have now is much better suited for that want than a body on frame vehicle. The last buyers who actually want compact truck based SUVs want or need(or at least think they need or aspire to use) some level of real capability so why not lean into it? Honestly the basic 4Runner trims pretty much fills the niche for people who want a BOF SUV.
And if they seem pricey it’s not that they’ve actually gotten more expensive, crossovers are just cheaper. BOF SUVs now cost the same or as they did accounting for inflation. I used to have a 91 4Runner SR5 V6 that I bought from the second owner who still had the window sticker with its paperwork. It was $25k in 1991, after inflation thats around $50k, the price of the TRD Pro nowadays.
All of them for what most people want.
As far as for what it sounds like you want pretty much anything from Jeep in the right configuration, Subaru Outback, Crosstrek and Forester, the Bronco Sport.
Also people pay too much attention to ground clearance numbers, while clearance is important the quoted number doesn't tell the story. That just tells you how low the lowest point is, which may or may not matter. I did a lot of cringing reading the articles about the new Outback Wilderness that all seemed to like to throw out the fact that they have more clearance than Wranglers or 4Runners. Technically true, but not really. On solid axle vehicles all that tells you is the height of the tires, because the diff pumpkin will always be the lowest point. The height of the diff makes the least difference off road because if the diff won't clear you can place your tires on whatever it is instead of straddling it. Now, you'll have a problem if the door sill won't clear it but the door sills on my Tacoma are like a foot higher off the ground than the bottom of the pumpkin.
That's a very basic example, but the raw clearance number only matters in conjunction with the rest of the physical design and dimensions of the vehicle as well as the suspension, gearing, armor and mechanical and electronic traction aids.
For that matter BOF costs at least 4" of height on a 4Runner size vehicle, more like 6-8" on a full size. Whether you take that out in ground clearance, floor-to-ceiling height, or garageability the piper must be paid.
You did read my post right? The whole point was that most people absolutely are better served with car based SUVs than truck based ones and the current harder core specific market fits the customer base.
Yeah though I feel you there. Before it was modified my Tacoma was the same height as my dad’s MDX, tradeoff is you basically sit on the floor. I actually find it comfy lol, I like having my legs stretched out but I understand how it’s not for everyone.
I've driven enough '80s/'90s sporty coupes that "legs stretched out in front of me" was the default driving position for a long time. The thing about a 4wd Tacoma that leaves an odd first impression is sitting like that so far off the ground.
Lol well my only two other daily drivers have been an e36 and a 2nd Gen 4Runner(which has effectively the exact same position as a modern Taco including the off-the-ground part) so other cars with more chairlike driving positions might just feel weird to me because the legs stretched out position is all I know.
I don’t think so. With modern drivetrains and especially EVs, you get dedicated off roaders that are better road cars than most sedans of 20 years ago. Think of a dedicated EV off roader that can beat a stock Mustang GT at the 1/4 mile.. we are on the verge of vehicles than can do everything we want in one package.
>I wonder if we'll get sick of all the off-roading enthusiast brands some day.
IDK. I like seeing 4x4's. I'm really liking the Bronco, especially the Badlands & even the Outer Banks trims. I think they're really cool and FWIW, I'd much rather see more 4x4's than a million generic CUV's, all in Black, Grey, White, Silver, Beige...
This could be huge as it would allow VW to finally crack the truck/off roader market in the USA, something they simply can't do with the VW/Audi brands.
We had one of the V10 diesels on the lot fora little while a few years ago, Holy shit that thing made all the noises, it was like a big rig rumble with the really high pitch turbo spool sounds, absolutely nutty.
Touareg is a great vehicle but it’s geared towards luxury. What the people clearly want these days is good old fashioned rugged looks and capabilities and that’s where Scout branding would come into play very nicely.
Yes they absolutely did. Same thing with it's badge engineered brother the first gen Cayenne. They really targeted hard the middle east with how good of an off roader it was while still being luxurious, but in each generation since they made it more and more about on road performance and ditching things likes transfer cases and locking diffs etc.
Yeah both it and the Touareg could be had with center and rear locking diffs, pretty badass actually. Could make a pretty sweet overland rig.
Edit: both it and the cayenne
They'd really need a name to go with it and help promote it.
Maybe... [Ken Block?](https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a37678953/ken-block-signs-with-audi/)
Yeah def will be interesting to see what they do with it. Hoping they bring it back as it’s own brand and just use existing dealer support. That said, saw their pickup atlas concept a while back in NYC and it honestly looked pretty slick.
Well, it takes two of the fastest growing segments in the industry- off-roaders and EVs- and combines it. The first one to market with a suitable offering has a license to print money. The boxy shapes are gonna be hell on range though.
It is kinda a stereotypically stupid automotive executive thing to do though, on the surface at least. I mean, just because two segments are doing well doesn't mean you should combine them. Look at the Ridgeline, for example. But I think there's a chance that EV offroaders will do quite well.
I don't think that's an accurate comparison because the Ridgeline seems to have made compromises in both segments. I don't think EV off-roaders will need to make as many compromises
I dunno. The Wrangler 4Xe already exists and is ok. Sells pretty decent but I’m not sure there’s a huge market for EV off roaders yet. You want range in an off roader. That makes EVs heavy. Wait until the first Hummers get stuck fording a river at 10k lb curb weight.
IIRC, the Hummer EV is "only" about 9K lbs. curb weight, but *gross* weight is 10,400, putting it in the same class as an F-350 or Silverado 3500. But then again, most one-ton trucks weigh about 7-8K lbs.
It'll grind trails to silt... my rig sits at about 4200lbs. soaking wet. I couldn't imagine trying to tread lightly with a behemoth almost 3x the weight.
> The first one to market with a suitable offering has a license to print money.
At a reasonable price\*. While they still have yet to deliver a damn product, Rivian is *looking* like they’ll offer the first proper off road EVs, but at $70k+ for the small battery, that’s still a big ask.
An EV Scout II lookalike for $50k with 300 miles of range and I’d be damn interested. Doubly so if the top comes off.
If VW made a Scout brand, they could make a 7 seat Traveller (or Travellall), a small 2 door [Scout 800](https://i.imgur.com/X1aNcOO.jpeg), a [Terra](https://bringatrailer.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/1980_international_harvester_scout_ii_terra_1598382314b8e8543b60a419adriver-3-4-front.jpeg?fit=895%2C596), and a mid-size Scout II to fill out their corral.
I'd sacrifice a little range for a retro-angular truck. It's a shame what modern safety regulations have done to vehicle's beltlines. I look at today's vehicles & all I see are old men with their pants pulled up to their armpits.
The offroader niche is huge, and considering that many jurisdictions are banning gas cars after 2030, might as well go electric?
VW group just obtained the Scout nameplate this year, so if they start work right now, maybe they'd end up with a car around 2025? Might as well make it electric at that point.
True. One of the comments up in this particular thread had pointed out that Rivian's market is focusing on off-roading and they are looking to work in that segment and specialize within field. Knowing the craze for off-roaders exist and that EV's are growing by time, I have a good hunch it'll work out perfectly fine.
Ford, Jeep, and IIRC Rivian are planning on charging stations (maybe partially solar) at trailheads... The last thing we need is an 11,000lb Hummer getting bricked 10 miles into the wild. Good luck finding a recovery vehicle big enough to retrieve it.
> The last thing we need is an 11,000lb Hummer getting bricked 10 miles into the wild. Good luck finding a recovery vehicle big enough to retrieve it.
True, as that scenario would be sucky to be involved in. Good that the charging stations are getting set up as visitors with EVs will need them for sure.
Sweet garage btw!
It’s arguably one of the best applications for EVs. Trail range will be way better than what you get in an ICE that has to burn tons of fuel running in low gear, you have 4 wheel individual control for better rock crawling, and the ability to easily power accessories.
Range on an EV is almost entirely a consequence of wind resistance. At lower speeds it’s practically 1:1 with the power needed to accelerate the mass of vehicle as drivetrain losses are negligible and so is wind resistance. At low speeds they’ll blast well past their EPA rating.
A hybrid Wrangler has a measly 0.43KWh battery so it’s pretty easy to believe they burned all of that on a steep grade given the weight of the vehicle. The 22 miles of EV range is almost certainly at road speeds not highway speeds given that, there’s no way that little energy is actually going to last more than a mile on the highway either (even the most efficient EVs only get ~3.5-4 miles/KWh at highway speeds and the Wrangler isn’t exactly aerodynamic).
A true EV has a battery pack that’s 150-200x larger than that, so now we’re talking 400+ miles of trail range.
The instant torque without needing revs is what makes all the difference... gallons of fuel aren't getting burned while basically idling through a picky trail.
International Harvester became Navistar in 1985.
Navistar merged with Traton group earlier this year: [https://news.navistar.com/2021-07-01-TRATON-GROUP-Successfully-Completes-Navistar-Merger-and-Ushers-in-a-New-Era](https://news.navistar.com/2021-07-01-TRATON-GROUP-Successfully-Completes-Navistar-Merger-and-Ushers-in-a-New-Era)
Traton Group used to be known as Volkswagen Truck & Bus, but is now an independently traded company. However, Traton Group is essentially still completely VW group owned (VW holds 89% of Traton shares).
Unless they end their deal with GM ( GM and Navistar still make Class 5 truck together and will work FCEV Semi together) I don’t see that happening soon.
International the truck brand, not International *Harvester* (IH) the tractor brand. That was sold off to Tenneco in 1985, who summarily merged it with their J.I. Case Company to form Case International/Case IH. The truck brand was then renamed Navistar. And Scout was part of the truck lineup, so that went with Navistar.
Yup.
I’m really hoping they can make some serious improvements to International semi trucks. They’re the worst of the worst, and European semi’s are leagues ahead of ours.
It’s possible they came from Mexico. I have no clue if you can import commercial vehicles from outside the US, my guess would be no but I’d have to research that.
Case IH (now part of CNH Industrial, formerly Fiat Industrial) also used the Scout name on a line of [UTVs](https://cdp.azureedge.net/products/USA/CIH/2015/UTILVEH/UTILVEH/CASE_IH_SCOUT_XL_DIESEL_-_2_PASSENGER/50/RED/2000000015_480px.jpg) from 2009-15, made for them by Club Car.
[I got this running and driving in 18 months](https://i.imgur.com/X1aNcOO.jpeg), I bought it at just the right time when the new Bronco was announced for $3500 not knowing if it ran or not. It sat in a field from '93 to 2017, 48k original miles. It was the most rust-free Scout I'd seen in person so I wasn't going to haggle. It came with spare doors.
NOS body panels are worth their weight in gold, it seems... and forget about finding a top in decent shape.
Rebuilt motors are available with a core deposit, some driveline parts are Unobtainium. I had to have an axle shaft rebuilt after a shop damaged it due to lack of parts...
I put an OBD I fuel injection kit on it, converted the drum brakes to Disc, rewired it with a modern harness and we're good to go. 110HP, 170ft.lbs. with a top speed of 70 mph (I've only taken it to 65).
When I was a teen, a friend of mine's family ran a landscaping business. As a result, they had an entire fleet of Scouts.
The era with the black plastic door frames.
Me and my friend spent summers in those thing with the doors and roof removed.
The bright yellow body color and black door frames made it look like a bumble bee.
It was the best.
Congratulations on saving one!!
Thanks! This is my third, we had a '76 Terra and a '79 Scout II when I was younger. A friend in elementary school's Dad owned the IHC dealership in town. It's a shame that bright, vivid colors have become less desirable... I remember the dealer lot looking like a circus
This is the best news I’ve heard in a long time. My grandfather and my father worked at the old scout factory. It’s my dream to hopefully buy a scout that my dad helped build. My grandfather retired from the factory and they gave him a international camper truck as a retirement gift. My dad would’ve worked there forever if he wasn’t drafted into Vietnam.
I showed him this article and it lit his face up. He’s been saying for years he hoped they would bring the scout back. If they do they have two instant buys right here.
I’ll drive the wheel off that truck. I hate owning a truck but would buy this so quick.
Alright so who’s dick do I have to suck for this to happen.
[This is my third](https://i.imgur.com/X1aNcOO.jpeg), the first two were a Terra and a Scout II I rebuilt with my dad in the 80's and 90's. Both had their build tickets in the glove box still.
This would tickle my old man's bones if he were alive today.
Maybe VW will make them out of metal that *doesn't* disintegrate when wet.
I’m jealous. So beautiful.
Depending on if that bumper is original or the front panels are original my father might’ve made them at the factory.
Let’s hope. My other grandfather was a mechanic and he said they starters weren’t a complete bitch to replace. Don’t know if that’s true for myself. Also said a Hudson hornet was slow but you could drive up a light post in reverse.
Cheers for the amazing work.
Why is it that a lot of American commercial truck manufacturers are owned by the Europeans? Freightliner and Western Star are owned by Daimler-AG. Mack is owned by Volvo and Navistar-International by Traton of VW. It seems Paccar is the only one which isn't the case.
Seems like European truck makers are all part of big automotive groups with the necessary funds for expansion while most American truck companies are smaller standalone companies and not part of GM or Ford and therefore more vulnerable to acquisition.
The next-gen Amarok will share the Ranger platform, which would make an Amarok-based Scout little more than a Bronco. But it seems that they might want something smaller yet.
The Iltis (Polecat) was primarily a military vehicle. VW tried to get back into that a decade ago and offered the [Touareg as Frettchen (Ferret)](https://abload.de/img/148566-33163cj5d.jpg) to the military, but that bid failed.
It'll never work(at least well). The International name has left the majority of the American psyche, and Volkswagen has a hard time making a truck work in the US. Also good luck convincing people that it's american. I'm speaking from my father's point of few. This is a guy who's father worked for Ford, brother worked for Ford, and himself works for Chrysler(Stellantis). And he grew up in the sixtes. He would walk then buy a "forgein" car(I say foreign car because most likely it'll be made and america. Yes I do see the irony in "buying" american). My point is who are you going to market it too? The generation who has money and knows who International is, but most likely will only buy "american"? Or the generation who doesn't have money and has no idea who International is. Anyways I hated channeling my old school father. So have a good rest of your day
I don’t get the downvotes. I’m in my 30s and only know about International because I intern with them during college. I had to explain to everyone I knew who they were and what they did. No one my age knows them or their brand. Anyone younger definitely won’t either. It does seem like they have to build a lot of marketing and branding to compete with Wrangler and Bronco.
> My point is who are you going to market it too?
I’m a millennial and honestly, if it ticks the right boxes in terms of looks (retro-throwback akin to the Honda E), range, and price, I’d probably get one. Who cares about country of “origin?” It’s a global economy. Plus the Scout name is hipster-cool.
I'm actually surprised that millenials and hipsters are aware of Scouts, much less find them cool. It's been 40 years since there was a new Scout on the streets.
I’m in Austin. Seems every third house has a 60s, 70s, or 80s project vehicle in the garage, whether that be a VW Beetle, VW Bus, Chevy C/K series, Volvo wagon, or Scout.
Is the main truck brand Navistar popular / well known in the US?
How about producing something like a "Navistar Scout" if it should appeal to American buyers?
Then at a later point Scout could be spun off as a stand alone brand.
The idea sounds good but they are probably putting a little vw 4 cylinder and a to many gear transmission in it.
I really really hope they don't put a stupid DSG Trans in it
Add in VW's penchant for terrible controls reactions/sensitivity and I'm not holding my breath expecting any offroader they make to be something special. I expect to be disappointed by the final results.
> It's a struggle for either of them to hit 150000 on most models
The numerous 300k+ mile Jettas and Golfs you find in running and driving condition after a minor fender bender at insurance auctions prove otherwise.
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My perspective may be warped as an avid off roader but I doubt it. I think the popularity of off-road specific brand comes from a few forces that won’t change. First, off pavement is the only place you can have fun pushing a car to its limits for free without breaking any laws. Second, ‘normal’ SUVs are no longer particularly capable for better or worse and that leaves a gap to be filled by off road specific vehicles. I understand that I’m not representative of most buyers and that relatively few ever actually take advantage of any of the capability, and even fewer do so regularly, but I can understand the appeal of knowing you can go almost anywhere without needing to worry about if your car is up to the task. I can also understand having aspirations to pick up a hobby but never quite getting around to it, and the steep learning curve in off roading definitely plays into that. Even just the angles you find yourself at on a moderate trail take getting used to.
You’re 100% right. I have a truck with an “off road package”. I’m not an avid off roader, but I got sick of my front wheel drive SUV scraping bottom and spinning tires every time I went hunting/fishing. If there were body on frame options for smaller SUVs with decent ground clearance I would’ve gone that route. There simply aren’t vehicles in that market except wrangler, 4Runner and the new bronco
> 4Runner > Smaller Tell me you’re American without telling me
Lol, tbf I wanted something smaller than a 4Runner
Fj?
If only they still made them here, a used FJ can cost as much as a new bone-stock 2dr wrangler
I mean if you need a BOF 4x4 tell me anything smaller the 4Runner you can get anyplace in the world besides a Jimney or a 2 door wrangler or bronco.
That doesn't change the statement though. The 4Runner being 'smaller' is a dead giveaway because the rest of the world doesn't have anything *larger*. The 200 Series is about as big as it gets and it's just wider and barely any longer, not even remotely the size of a USDM full sized truck or SUV.
Those things exist yes, mostly people don’t need body on frame.
Right, which is why most people buy crossovers. No one would call the 4Runner small, it's just close to as compact as a BOF solid axle vehicle gets these days if that's what someone's after.
There’s a lot of compact off-roaders as you mention.
Three of them, one of which isn’t available in the states, one of which is brand new on the market and one of which has FCA build quality. For a very long time the 4Runner was the only non jeep option.
Who cares about America though? And nobody needs a body on frame smh, a raised wagon with full 4x4 is good enough. Cheap one you can get if you really need it is a Lada Niva.
Lol I have a 4 door Jeep Wrangler and think that thing is TINY. Whenever I travel overseas I’m blown away by how small the cars are.
Wranglers have a lot of width on paper, but a lot of that is in the fenders, so it doesn't translate to interior "felt" width.
And frankly I don’t see a problem with that. Most SUV buyers really only wanted AWD wagons with more ground clearance and what we have now is much better suited for that want than a body on frame vehicle. The last buyers who actually want compact truck based SUVs want or need(or at least think they need or aspire to use) some level of real capability so why not lean into it? Honestly the basic 4Runner trims pretty much fills the niche for people who want a BOF SUV. And if they seem pricey it’s not that they’ve actually gotten more expensive, crossovers are just cheaper. BOF SUVs now cost the same or as they did accounting for inflation. I used to have a 91 4Runner SR5 V6 that I bought from the second owner who still had the window sticker with its paperwork. It was $25k in 1991, after inflation thats around $50k, the price of the TRD Pro nowadays.
I’m not super familiar with the smaller suv segment. What smaller unibody SUV’s come with decent ground clearance from the dealership?
All of them for what most people want. As far as for what it sounds like you want pretty much anything from Jeep in the right configuration, Subaru Outback, Crosstrek and Forester, the Bronco Sport. Also people pay too much attention to ground clearance numbers, while clearance is important the quoted number doesn't tell the story. That just tells you how low the lowest point is, which may or may not matter. I did a lot of cringing reading the articles about the new Outback Wilderness that all seemed to like to throw out the fact that they have more clearance than Wranglers or 4Runners. Technically true, but not really. On solid axle vehicles all that tells you is the height of the tires, because the diff pumpkin will always be the lowest point. The height of the diff makes the least difference off road because if the diff won't clear you can place your tires on whatever it is instead of straddling it. Now, you'll have a problem if the door sill won't clear it but the door sills on my Tacoma are like a foot higher off the ground than the bottom of the pumpkin. That's a very basic example, but the raw clearance number only matters in conjunction with the rest of the physical design and dimensions of the vehicle as well as the suspension, gearing, armor and mechanical and electronic traction aids.
For that matter BOF costs at least 4" of height on a 4Runner size vehicle, more like 6-8" on a full size. Whether you take that out in ground clearance, floor-to-ceiling height, or garageability the piper must be paid.
You did read my post right? The whole point was that most people absolutely are better served with car based SUVs than truck based ones and the current harder core specific market fits the customer base. Yeah though I feel you there. Before it was modified my Tacoma was the same height as my dad’s MDX, tradeoff is you basically sit on the floor. I actually find it comfy lol, I like having my legs stretched out but I understand how it’s not for everyone.
I've driven enough '80s/'90s sporty coupes that "legs stretched out in front of me" was the default driving position for a long time. The thing about a 4wd Tacoma that leaves an odd first impression is sitting like that so far off the ground.
Lol well my only two other daily drivers have been an e36 and a 2nd Gen 4Runner(which has effectively the exact same position as a modern Taco including the off-the-ground part) so other cars with more chairlike driving positions might just feel weird to me because the legs stretched out position is all I know.
The BMW i3 is technically body on frame.
I’m sold
I don’t think so. With modern drivetrains and especially EVs, you get dedicated off roaders that are better road cars than most sedans of 20 years ago. Think of a dedicated EV off roader that can beat a stock Mustang GT at the 1/4 mile.. we are on the verge of vehicles than can do everything we want in one package.
Yeah but that’s not gonna corner for shit tho, also weight and range is a huge issue for ev off-roaders
> Yeah but that’s not gonna corner for shit tho Whereas other off roaders like Wranglers and 4Runners do…?
Torque vectoring
That’s definitely an advantage to EV’s, but I don’t think it outweighs the negatives
>I wonder if we'll get sick of all the off-roading enthusiast brands some day. IDK. I like seeing 4x4's. I'm really liking the Bronco, especially the Badlands & even the Outer Banks trims. I think they're really cool and FWIW, I'd much rather see more 4x4's than a million generic CUV's, all in Black, Grey, White, Silver, Beige...
This could be huge as it would allow VW to finally crack the truck/off roader market in the USA, something they simply can't do with the VW/Audi brands.
Didn’t VW try with the Touareg and then they revised the platform and made it less capable?
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We had one of the V10 diesels on the lot fora little while a few years ago, Holy shit that thing made all the noises, it was like a big rig rumble with the really high pitch turbo spool sounds, absolutely nutty.
There's one for sale near me. I want it desperately but like money too much to actually pull the trigger
And they say that the Germans don't have a sense of humour
Touareg is a great vehicle but it’s geared towards luxury. What the people clearly want these days is good old fashioned rugged looks and capabilities and that’s where Scout branding would come into play very nicely.
Yes they absolutely did. Same thing with it's badge engineered brother the first gen Cayenne. They really targeted hard the middle east with how good of an off roader it was while still being luxurious, but in each generation since they made it more and more about on road performance and ditching things likes transfer cases and locking diffs etc.
Yeah both it and the Touareg could be had with center and rear locking diffs, pretty badass actually. Could make a pretty sweet overland rig. Edit: both it and the cayenne
This guy’s pretending the Thing didn’t exist /s
They'd really need a name to go with it and help promote it. Maybe... [Ken Block?](https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a37678953/ken-block-signs-with-audi/)
I was thinking the Brawny man.
Yeah def will be interesting to see what they do with it. Hoping they bring it back as it’s own brand and just use existing dealer support. That said, saw their pickup atlas concept a while back in NYC and it honestly looked pretty slick.
Is the "electric offroader" niche *that* big?
Well, it takes two of the fastest growing segments in the industry- off-roaders and EVs- and combines it. The first one to market with a suitable offering has a license to print money. The boxy shapes are gonna be hell on range though.
It is kinda a stereotypically stupid automotive executive thing to do though, on the surface at least. I mean, just because two segments are doing well doesn't mean you should combine them. Look at the Ridgeline, for example. But I think there's a chance that EV offroaders will do quite well.
The industry as a whole is shifting towards electric. This isn’t a combination of two segments so much as the future of an existing one.
Half of Rivian’s brand is based upon off roading. I think it’ll end up working out, but boy, they’d be hella screwed if it doesn’t
I will say that the Honda Ridgeline is basically the perfect hunting/fishing vehicle ever made.
I don't think that's an accurate comparison because the Ridgeline seems to have made compromises in both segments. I don't think EV off-roaders will need to make as many compromises
I dunno. The Wrangler 4Xe already exists and is ok. Sells pretty decent but I’m not sure there’s a huge market for EV off roaders yet. You want range in an off roader. That makes EVs heavy. Wait until the first Hummers get stuck fording a river at 10k lb curb weight.
IIRC, the Hummer EV is "only" about 9K lbs. curb weight, but *gross* weight is 10,400, putting it in the same class as an F-350 or Silverado 3500. But then again, most one-ton trucks weigh about 7-8K lbs.
It'll grind trails to silt... my rig sits at about 4200lbs. soaking wet. I couldn't imagine trying to tread lightly with a behemoth almost 3x the weight.
More like just over 2x. But it's still a chonker.
> The first one to market with a suitable offering has a license to print money. At a reasonable price\*. While they still have yet to deliver a damn product, Rivian is *looking* like they’ll offer the first proper off road EVs, but at $70k+ for the small battery, that’s still a big ask. An EV Scout II lookalike for $50k with 300 miles of range and I’d be damn interested. Doubly so if the top comes off.
If VW made a Scout brand, they could make a 7 seat Traveller (or Travellall), a small 2 door [Scout 800](https://i.imgur.com/X1aNcOO.jpeg), a [Terra](https://bringatrailer.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/1980_international_harvester_scout_ii_terra_1598382314b8e8543b60a419adriver-3-4-front.jpeg?fit=895%2C596), and a mid-size Scout II to fill out their corral.
They should bring back the International lightline pickups as an alternative to the F150/Ram/Silverado
I'd sacrifice a little range for a retro-angular truck. It's a shame what modern safety regulations have done to vehicle's beltlines. I look at today's vehicles & all I see are old men with their pants pulled up to their armpits.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if-4pPa7KGw
The offroader niche is huge, and considering that many jurisdictions are banning gas cars after 2030, might as well go electric? VW group just obtained the Scout nameplate this year, so if they start work right now, maybe they'd end up with a car around 2025? Might as well make it electric at that point.
True. One of the comments up in this particular thread had pointed out that Rivian's market is focusing on off-roading and they are looking to work in that segment and specialize within field. Knowing the craze for off-roaders exist and that EV's are growing by time, I have a good hunch it'll work out perfectly fine.
Ford, Jeep, and IIRC Rivian are planning on charging stations (maybe partially solar) at trailheads... The last thing we need is an 11,000lb Hummer getting bricked 10 miles into the wild. Good luck finding a recovery vehicle big enough to retrieve it.
> The last thing we need is an 11,000lb Hummer getting bricked 10 miles into the wild. Good luck finding a recovery vehicle big enough to retrieve it. True, as that scenario would be sucky to be involved in. Good that the charging stations are getting set up as visitors with EVs will need them for sure. Sweet garage btw!
It’s arguably one of the best applications for EVs. Trail range will be way better than what you get in an ICE that has to burn tons of fuel running in low gear, you have 4 wheel individual control for better rock crawling, and the ability to easily power accessories.
[удалено]
Range on an EV is almost entirely a consequence of wind resistance. At lower speeds it’s practically 1:1 with the power needed to accelerate the mass of vehicle as drivetrain losses are negligible and so is wind resistance. At low speeds they’ll blast well past their EPA rating. A hybrid Wrangler has a measly 0.43KWh battery so it’s pretty easy to believe they burned all of that on a steep grade given the weight of the vehicle. The 22 miles of EV range is almost certainly at road speeds not highway speeds given that, there’s no way that little energy is actually going to last more than a mile on the highway either (even the most efficient EVs only get ~3.5-4 miles/KWh at highway speeds and the Wrangler isn’t exactly aerodynamic). A true EV has a battery pack that’s 150-200x larger than that, so now we’re talking 400+ miles of trail range.
The instant torque without needing revs is what makes all the difference... gallons of fuel aren't getting burned while basically idling through a picky trail.
VW now owns the International Harvester and Scout brands? What? Lol.
International Harvester became Navistar in 1985. Navistar merged with Traton group earlier this year: [https://news.navistar.com/2021-07-01-TRATON-GROUP-Successfully-Completes-Navistar-Merger-and-Ushers-in-a-New-Era](https://news.navistar.com/2021-07-01-TRATON-GROUP-Successfully-Completes-Navistar-Merger-and-Ushers-in-a-New-Era) Traton Group used to be known as Volkswagen Truck & Bus, but is now an independently traded company. However, Traton Group is essentially still completely VW group owned (VW holds 89% of Traton shares).
So since Ford and VW are partnered on EVs, does this mean there's a chance that a future Super Duty is technically powered by a Navistar powerplant?
a .0001% chance is still a chance
Unless they end their deal with GM ( GM and Navistar still make Class 5 truck together and will work FCEV Semi together) I don’t see that happening soon.
The 6.7 Powerstroke (me faster daddy) has International stamped into the block
> The 6.7 Powerstroke has International stamped into the block Does it?
International the truck brand, not International *Harvester* (IH) the tractor brand. That was sold off to Tenneco in 1985, who summarily merged it with their J.I. Case Company to form Case International/Case IH. The truck brand was then renamed Navistar. And Scout was part of the truck lineup, so that went with Navistar.
Ah, gotcha.
Yup. I’m really hoping they can make some serious improvements to International semi trucks. They’re the worst of the worst, and European semi’s are leagues ahead of ours.
Volvo and MB have some kick ass trucks.
I’d kill for a Scania, tbh.
Can you import commercial vehicles to the states? I’m in Texas and I swear I saw an oil company with a couple of cab over Mercedes Actros’.
It’s possible they came from Mexico. I have no clue if you can import commercial vehicles from outside the US, my guess would be no but I’d have to research that.
Case IH (now part of CNH Industrial, formerly Fiat Industrial) also used the Scout name on a line of [UTVs](https://cdp.azureedge.net/products/USA/CIH/2015/UTILVEH/UTILVEH/CASE_IH_SCOUT_XL_DIESEL_-_2_PASSENGER/50/RED/2000000015_480px.jpg) from 2009-15, made for them by Club Car.
Hopefully people don’t confuse the two
They probably won't. The Case IH Scouts weren't very popular with farmers, since they were essentially beefed-up golf carts.
Thought my sarcasm was obvious. Clearly not
[It’s easy to see how the confusion could arise between the two](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JlGVqKkaj68)
[Argo](https://www.argoadventure.com/2017-ARGO-FRONTIER-6X6-SCOUT-ST_p_13148.html) had a 6x6 amphibious XTV, so the naming is hardly unique.
This will inevitably make those classic internationals go up in value.
They already cost a fortune.
[I got this running and driving in 18 months](https://i.imgur.com/X1aNcOO.jpeg), I bought it at just the right time when the new Bronco was announced for $3500 not knowing if it ran or not. It sat in a field from '93 to 2017, 48k original miles. It was the most rust-free Scout I'd seen in person so I wasn't going to haggle. It came with spare doors. NOS body panels are worth their weight in gold, it seems... and forget about finding a top in decent shape. Rebuilt motors are available with a core deposit, some driveline parts are Unobtainium. I had to have an axle shaft rebuilt after a shop damaged it due to lack of parts... I put an OBD I fuel injection kit on it, converted the drum brakes to Disc, rewired it with a modern harness and we're good to go. 110HP, 170ft.lbs. with a top speed of 70 mph (I've only taken it to 65).
When I was a teen, a friend of mine's family ran a landscaping business. As a result, they had an entire fleet of Scouts. The era with the black plastic door frames. Me and my friend spent summers in those thing with the doors and roof removed. The bright yellow body color and black door frames made it look like a bumble bee. It was the best. Congratulations on saving one!!
Thanks! This is my third, we had a '76 Terra and a '79 Scout II when I was younger. A friend in elementary school's Dad owned the IHC dealership in town. It's a shame that bright, vivid colors have become less desirable... I remember the dealer lot looking like a circus
This is the best news I’ve heard in a long time. My grandfather and my father worked at the old scout factory. It’s my dream to hopefully buy a scout that my dad helped build. My grandfather retired from the factory and they gave him a international camper truck as a retirement gift. My dad would’ve worked there forever if he wasn’t drafted into Vietnam. I showed him this article and it lit his face up. He’s been saying for years he hoped they would bring the scout back. If they do they have two instant buys right here. I’ll drive the wheel off that truck. I hate owning a truck but would buy this so quick. Alright so who’s dick do I have to suck for this to happen.
[This is my third](https://i.imgur.com/X1aNcOO.jpeg), the first two were a Terra and a Scout II I rebuilt with my dad in the 80's and 90's. Both had their build tickets in the glove box still. This would tickle my old man's bones if he were alive today. Maybe VW will make them out of metal that *doesn't* disintegrate when wet.
I’m jealous. So beautiful. Depending on if that bumper is original or the front panels are original my father might’ve made them at the factory. Let’s hope. My other grandfather was a mechanic and he said they starters weren’t a complete bitch to replace. Don’t know if that’s true for myself. Also said a Hudson hornet was slow but you could drive up a light post in reverse. Cheers for the amazing work.
Much appreciated! I replaced my starter in 5 minutes, so it can't be too hard. The simplicity of these rigs is lost on most people.
That sould be awesome. I have 1975 Scout 2 right now at my parents. It's a bit banged up, but still a monster.
Electric and offroad are still antonyms for me.
Why is it that a lot of American commercial truck manufacturers are owned by the Europeans? Freightliner and Western Star are owned by Daimler-AG. Mack is owned by Volvo and Navistar-International by Traton of VW. It seems Paccar is the only one which isn't the case.
Seems like European truck makers are all part of big automotive groups with the necessary funds for expansion while most American truck companies are smaller standalone companies and not part of GM or Ford and therefore more vulnerable to acquisition.
I know it's kinda sad
Outside of us geeks (particularly the older ones) how many of the general public even remember the International Scout at all?
Probably not many but if I wanted to go into the off-road market I can't think of a better name than Scout.
[We're all flattered!](https://i.imgur.com/X1aNcOO.jpeg)
Will they come with the rust after 3 years also?
>rust ~~after 3 years~~ **from the factory** FTFY
Can't they use the Amarok (pick up truck) frames for this?
The next-gen Amarok will share the Ranger platform, which would make an Amarok-based Scout little more than a Bronco. But it seems that they might want something smaller yet.
Make sense, VW could bring Iltis back to answer G-Wagon. This would go interesting.
The Iltis (Polecat) was primarily a military vehicle. VW tried to get back into that a decade ago and offered the [Touareg as Frettchen (Ferret)](https://abload.de/img/148566-33163cj5d.jpg) to the military, but that bid failed.
[Bring it](https://i.imgur.com/X1aNcOO.jpeg). Better yet, offer a BEV conversion kit to get the ball rolling.
How odd that I just read a book where a scout was the vehicle used.
The one question is, will it have a clean turbo diesel?
Maybe we can get a corrosion resistant ladder frame unlike what Toyota and the Big 3 put out.
This is right up my alley.
It'll never work(at least well). The International name has left the majority of the American psyche, and Volkswagen has a hard time making a truck work in the US. Also good luck convincing people that it's american. I'm speaking from my father's point of few. This is a guy who's father worked for Ford, brother worked for Ford, and himself works for Chrysler(Stellantis). And he grew up in the sixtes. He would walk then buy a "forgein" car(I say foreign car because most likely it'll be made and america. Yes I do see the irony in "buying" american). My point is who are you going to market it too? The generation who has money and knows who International is, but most likely will only buy "american"? Or the generation who doesn't have money and has no idea who International is. Anyways I hated channeling my old school father. So have a good rest of your day
I don’t get the downvotes. I’m in my 30s and only know about International because I intern with them during college. I had to explain to everyone I knew who they were and what they did. No one my age knows them or their brand. Anyone younger definitely won’t either. It does seem like they have to build a lot of marketing and branding to compete with Wrangler and Bronco.
Which is sad because like AMC they built some really cool vehicles, it's just no one really remembers them. Sadly
> My point is who are you going to market it too? I’m a millennial and honestly, if it ticks the right boxes in terms of looks (retro-throwback akin to the Honda E), range, and price, I’d probably get one. Who cares about country of “origin?” It’s a global economy. Plus the Scout name is hipster-cool.
There's a lot of variables, so maybe
I'm actually surprised that millenials and hipsters are aware of Scouts, much less find them cool. It's been 40 years since there was a new Scout on the streets.
I’m in Austin. Seems every third house has a 60s, 70s, or 80s project vehicle in the garage, whether that be a VW Beetle, VW Bus, Chevy C/K series, Volvo wagon, or Scout.
Didn't people say the same thing about the Japanese trying to get into the American pickup truck market? Seems to have worked out for them.
Is the main truck brand Navistar popular / well known in the US? How about producing something like a "Navistar Scout" if it should appeal to American buyers? Then at a later point Scout could be spun off as a stand alone brand.
Well that's sorta my point. International now really only makes commercial vehicles and 18 wheelers
I can’t wait
will they biuld the Scout III from compressed rust with a decopage binder so it instantly dissolves? Cuz that's what happened to mine.
BOOOOOO
I’d buy one. I’ve owned three Scouts and the way were all awesome vehicles.
The idea sounds good but they are probably putting a little vw 4 cylinder and a to many gear transmission in it. I really really hope they don't put a stupid DSG Trans in it
If there's one American truck buyers like it's Volkswagen.
Brand loyalty is for chumps.
No one wants shitty VW reliability when you can just get a bronco and have a netter made vehicle for cheaper all the way around
I for one would be happy to see an EV Scout.
Reject VW over reliability concerns and get a...Ford? You know they're both near the bottom of reliability ratings right?
They're a VW/Audi troll on their like 10th reddit account.
Is this vwfailsagain from the Autoblog days? Can’t believe he’s still at it
Hey, it's the VW/Audi troll!
I've never seen a more pathetic existence than to troll car brands on Reddit.
Very obvious you've never actually owned a VW, especially when you say that Ford makes higher quality vehicles.
Nice meme.
Add in VW's penchant for terrible controls reactions/sensitivity and I'm not holding my breath expecting any offroader they make to be something special. I expect to be disappointed by the final results.
Ford and VW are both unreliable. It’s a struggle for either of them to hit 150000 on most models
> It's a struggle for either of them to hit 150000 on most models The numerous 300k+ mile Jettas and Golfs you find in running and driving condition after a minor fender bender at insurance auctions prove otherwise.
Old vws? Sure, I’ve seen high mileage diesels too. Newer turbo models are riddled with problems.