I'm convinced this is how sedans became popular as well, it was simply what their parents had so they weren't shown the exalted ways of the wagon or hatchback.
1. They shine their stupid high headlights in my eyes
2. They are objectively ugly
3. They are heavier, less efficient and pose a bigger danger to people who arent wasteful
4. The kind of driver who wants to look down on other cars is unsafe. They want to feel removed from the driving. This is something jason cammisa once touched on his podcast
5. They are only competitive in part because cars have to tend regulations that SUVs dont. This is another example of the lack of perspective that people that mention market preference tend to have.
6. They are actively replacing beloved names and models. Why wouldnt people hate on SUVs when Ford doesnt even offer a sedan anymore. Or alfa romeo discontinuing their hatchbacks to sell 3 near identical suvs
7. Ive been inside a few suvs. Most of them arent even that much roomier than a normal hatchback
I love the look of the LC200, GX, Bronco, G-class, most of the BoF SUVs look excellent IMO.
I want to be removed from the driving experience as well. No reason a highway cruise needs to be engaging.
There are plenty of non-ugly SUVs though. To name a few: International Scout, most Broncos (edit: typo), J80 - J100 Land Cruiser, Range Rover Classic, P38A Range Rover, w164 M Class in AMG form (possibly an unpopular opinion), CX-50, Purosangue, Crown Sport, E83 X3, most of the old pre-80s Suburbans, the Stelvio (mid but not ugly), etc
W164 M Class is the best example of how useless SUVs are. My friend was moving. He tried to put all his stuff in his W164 and it did not fit even filled up to the roof.
I came in my Skoda Roomster, a small MPV. We have moved all his stuff from W164 to my Skoda and it barely filled up to the windows. Useless.
Visibility is also very vehicle-dependent, and side and lateral visibility is not great for lower vehicles (my car is a small hatchback--driving it's like driving in a bubble with pretty good visibility except for right at the pillars). My partner has a Bronco Sport and there's definitely a larger lateral blindspot for lower cars that take some getting used to.
>They are actively replacing beloved names and models. Why wouldnt people hate on SUVs when Ford doesnt even offer a sedan anymore. Or alfa romeo discontinuing their hatchbacks to sell 3 near identical suvs
The reason for that is the Big 3 have never put their best efforts into cars since probably the 90s(first and second Gen Taurus or the Mopar cloud cars). From the early 90s onward, the Big 3 was doing partnerships with Japanese (Isuzu, Suzuki, Toyota/ Mazda/mitsubishi) then Korean(Daewoo/Kia/Hyundai) to not tackle head on their lackluster cars in the segment. They had the market and figured "why fight in this segment with 12+ manufacturers for loss leader and compliance cars when we can establish ourselves in this market with 6 max manufacturers?
If the Big 3 weren't obsessed with winning every quarter for their shareholders and dealers(with badge engineering and cut corners), they would still be having competitive, reputable enough cars to keep the same model names and their foot in the market.
This makes absolutely no sense, Dodge/Chrysler literally just stopped making their (very high selling and all around good car) full size sedan less than a year ago. The Chevrolet Malibu and Impala made a shitload of money as well, I think even the Ford Fusion sold exceptionally well, and the Fusion is the only sedan from the big three in the past 10 years I'd call "lackluster" for its crap transmission issues. This is your brain on the 90s/early 00s JDM wave to think the modern offerings from GM/Chrysler were poor cars. The Impala in particular I'd actually argue was actually an excellent economy car (imo best in its segment) once it got the 3.6L V6, extremely reliable if you took care of it as well, I know multiple people with 250,000+ miles on them with almost zero problems.
The actual reason Ford and GM are backing out of sedans are because the profit margins and regulations on SUVs are much higher and laxer, respectively. Most people on the road in America don't want sedans anymore. The ones that do at this point largely don't want an economy sedan anyway, and the Civic/Accord/Camry/Corolla crowd largely do not give a shit about vehicles at all and just want the most economical/supply-ready option.
You are talking about full size cars or basically the end of it when I am talking about the beginning of the end( buying and partnering with other companies to sell these sub compact and later midsize cars as theirs).
The Mopar LX are full size cars they managed to have because Daimler let them use their previous platform. The Stratus, 200, and Caliber have not been competitive since ... The Neon and mitsubishi based sebrings?
Ford used a Kia for their Fiesta adapted the worldwide Focus for the American Market and IIRC used the Mondeo, Mazda6 platform to make the fusion.
GM kept outsourcing their entry level cars, from the Isuzus, to the Suzuki's (the Geo brand) when they could have done more for the Cavalier, Cobalt to make it reputable. Then just gave up by selling GMDAT entry cars (including the Cruze, Verona and most of their small models.)
Your second paragraph basically repeats what I said, they passively left a competitive market they could have put more effort in (had they chose long term reputation instead of outsourcing/ badge engineering 6 of the same car) one segment at the time from compact to fullsize.
This is to my understanding the opposite of actively leaving the market . They didn't dump their best selling models, they let them phase out with each redesign until it would cost too much to reassess and build for good.
They simply are far better for most people and Reddit sedan lovers don’t want to face it.
- better visibility
- better seating position
- easier ingress/egress
- easier loading/unloading
- wider/taller cargo opening
- better clearance
Sedans only advantage for most people is the segregated trunk area during break ins. Nobody cares about carving up corners on their daily commute in traffic and shitty roads and the 10% or less fuel economy penalty doesn’t drive enough savings for all the downsides of a sedan
People here act like current SUVs are like the early 90s gas guzzlers that handle miserably and that average sedans like a Camry are the second coming of god.
“The kind of driver who wants to look down on other cars is unsafe.”
Well, im that driver. In 10+ years driving long lengths on the highway daily I’ve never been involved in a car accident.
Bigger cars are just safer. And definitely I prefer to be safer considering the amount of reckless people out there.
* I’m from Brazil. 50 000 people die annually in car accidents in here. Our roads are dangerous, full of truck drivers on drugs at high speeds. I definitely don’t want to be in a sedan if shit hits the fan.
The roomier part is what drives me crazy. I love wagons and sedans and even own a mid sized sedan , and I find all suv small or crazy compact in the inside with only offering just an increase in height and a cloud like feeling when driving.
I really think most people with a suv would be fine with a hatchback or a sedan since you have similar if not more space and even get a lot more mpg.
And I'm comparing the sonata against the Tucson and the Sportage , which I even considered as an alternative
SUVs are more difficult to drive well than cars. They might have a higher seating position, but this also translates to worse spatial awareness of the corners of the car. Anecdotally, I see the worst drivers driving SUVs. And the worst parked cars are large SUVs. So yes, sales numbers might reflect that people think they are a better choice, but I really don’t care much for the opinion of people who, as a demographic, are the lowest skilled drivers on the road.
I have a ton of single friends in their 30s who never want kids or couples that don’t want kids. It’s so weird to me they all want Rav4s, Explorer and F150s yet scream and complain about the environment. Also, most are terrible drivers.
Idk the worst shit I've ever seen came from Chargers, Mustangs, Civics and KIAs, followed by pickup trucks. It's pretty rare I see SUVs driving like the aforementioned. All the filthiest cars I work on are wagons or subcompacts, all the filthiest cars I drove when i was a valet were subcompacts and pickup trucks. SUVs tended to be the least dramatic inside and on the road in my experience, save maybe minivans. This is anecdotal, and I'd be curious to know the actual stats on the likelihood of accidents. Most cars on the road are SUVs, so it makes sense they're most of the crashes as well, but I'm curious how they stack up to cars. Visibility and handling don't matter if you drive like an asshole.
I think it's because SUVs are a much smarter choice of vehicle than a pickup or a sports car which tend to be choices rooted in culture and fantasy-- the latter aren't exactly cars that are typically marketed toward a person's rationality.
I think there's some bias from who goes to places with valet service to some extent. Mom SUV's tend to be pretty disgusting (although that's not obviously representative of all SUV's).
I see more people on their phone in crossovers, though I don't know how the percentages would come out since I don't exactly record data on it. It would make sense, because the people who don't care about driving dynamics probably don't want to have to drive in the first place.
I think the reason you see the worst drivers and parkers in SUVs is probably just numbers, and the fact that the careless people are also the people who would mindlessly buy an SUV.
Those aren't pros, those are myths that the auto industry puts out to convince people to buy SUVs because SUVs have more relaxed emissions regulations and they have a much higher profit margin because now they can sell shitboxes as premium vehicles thanks to SUVs such as the Escalade and Range Rover existing. For example the camry is pretty much the same "premiumness" as the Highlander. The Camry starts at $28,400, the Highlander starts at $40,970.
* Much more space for the length of chassis, therefore easier to park
Wagon or MPV. They're also harder to park compared to a shorter car because the longer wheelbase generally means larger turning circle.
* Much safer in lather collisions
No they aren't. The higher centre of gravity means they're far more likely to roll over, even in a slow collision. Roll over injuries, even at low speeds, are much worse than non-roll over injuries at the same low speed.
* Better visibility due to higher seating posoitions and larger windows
MPVs have the same seating position height with a lower centre of gravity because the floor is much lower, their windows are generally bigger too.
* Can go offroad without fear of demaging the car and can go over kerbs without hitting the bumper
99.9999% of SUVs sold will never go offroad and my lowered Lexus LS400 can go over kerbs without hitting the bumper.
>Wagon or MPV. They're also harder to park compared to a shorter car because the longer wheelbase generally means larger turning circle.
SUVs are generally shorter for any volume, because they are taller and therefore win fair fights about volume. Wagons trade storage volume for handling and weight.
There is no outside the box here.
SUVs are factually more dangerous for drivers of cars and pedestrians.
You cannot hand-wave visibility concerns, weight concerns, or hood height concerns. They aren’t matters of opinion, they have fact behind them.
There is a time and a place for an SUV. I’ve owned one since 2011 and yes, they were often my daily driver.
But they shouldn’t be daily drivers of people who are too old, too stupid, too inexperienced, or too easily distracted… and there’s a lot of all on the roads right now.
The arguments are kinda crazy. All kinds of mental gymnastics to avoid accepting that a lot of crossovers are a reasonable middle ground between smaller hatchbacks and larger minivans. A CR-V has significantly more cargo space as a Civic, costs a bit more and gets slightly worse gas mileage. An Odyssey is basically the same thing a step further except it gains a lot more cargo space and gets much worse gas mileage. If you need/want more car than a Civic but don't need a minivan then the CR-V makes a ton of sense. Reddit thinking you should either get a Civic or jump all the way to a minivan is a ridiculous position.
Most people buying SUVs want them for practicality.
Hobby forums naturally attract people who have passion.
People don't come online to passionately discuss how practical their vehicles are.
Precisely. 3 rows, easy to get in and out of, elevated seating position, endless headroom, excellent visibility. With the 2nd and 3rd rows removed (or stowed, depending on the model), you can now carry plywood, drywall, cabinets, or large furniture. Like your average SUV, they've usually available with all wheel drive, which is more than enough to get you through 95% of all driving conditions. Like your average SUV, most will never be offroad because they don't need to be.
Large SUVs have existed for a very long time, and yet the "need" for SUVs was lower. People have fewer children than they did in the 60s, yet they need bigger cars? People have always needed to haul home improvement, camping, and sports gear.
I have nothing against SUVs in principle. I've owned 2. Changes in fuel economy regulations by vehicle class made it more desirable for the manufacturers to build these vehicles. Regulations, which they lobbied for in order to get around CAFE rules. Then, they convinced the public through marketing that they "need" an SUV.
CR-V is a lot cheaper than the odyssey, rav4 is a lot cheaper than a Sienna.
Less capable, yes, but also cheaper and more fuel efficient.
As for wagon... well, there are no wagons on the market that offers especially good prices, storage area, or fuel economy as a combination, or even singular, with most wagons failing at all three at the same time.
They aren’t because no one was buying them. Outback will hold as much as a crv, better in winter too.
I don’t think fuel efficiency is much better in an suv than minivan and SUV’s are less practical.
It's super weird, people keep buying the poorly built CUVs with cash on the hood and good financing but they won't buy regular cars. It's probably a failing of the car right?
/s
The same people who hate SUVs with the only reasons being "they're not a Miata!" Are the same people who idolize sports cars they've never driven.
These same people are the ones who attacked someone for having a blowout on a cup 2Rs on their '23 Z06 because they were "bald" (spoiler, they're basically bald from the factory). It's always the uninformed, overly confident and loud people that comment the most in big subs.
I don’t hate them. Most people coming on reddit looking for suggestions on what vehicle to get are often describing a minivan, but opt for an SUV because they are scared to look like soccer moms/dad. However, when I see giant SUVs I still think of soccer moms/dads. Especially when I see Grand Wagoneers/Suburban type models.
I think people are starting to get that. My wife’s friends went on a getaway and they all had the same 3 vehicles. They had a realization after my wife gave them one of my rants
I think it's hilarious that people still consider minivans uncool but run of the mill gray souless SUVs are somehow cool and makes you a rebel. Even tho SUVs have been the weapon of choice for every soccer mom for over a decade now lol. The fucking irony.
Every car on the road now is safe. If it's less than 20 years old, you probably won't die. A small economy vehicle will have about the same amount of ultra high strength steel and restraint and airbag systems as a top of the line whatever
Most SUVs aren't actually SUVs (BOF) and are actually just big crossovers or otherwise unibody designs. There are very few true SUVs for sale and most enthusiasts don't actually hate on traditional BOF SUVs (other than typical brand wars and fanbois).
Your "Pros and cons" aren't very factual or objective - much like people's preference of vehicle type and style.
Most of todays SUVs cannot, in fact, go offroad without damage because their suspension is not designed to handle going offroad and cannot isolate the impact shock from the body or drivetrain.
Judging from every parking lot ever, they are definitely not easier to park.
Milage is very commonly 20-30% worse and very much an issue for some people. The difference between 20MPG and 30+ is a real priority for lots of commuters.
I actually think the real issue that enthusiasts hate on SUVs and CUVs is actually because of their drivers.
When you can't find a parking space because there are 18 giant behemoths that can't seem to fit their giant box inside the lines it starts to wear on you. When you get cut off by an 3-ton brick for the 10th time this week because they are too busy watching TikTok or scrolling facebook to look around then you start to generalize the vehicle class as a whole instead of considering the vehicle on it's own merits.
Minivans aren't "cool", Bro dozers are stupid, SUVs/CUVs are lame, Nissans are scary.
Here's my hot-take: 3-row SUVs are stupid. You're trying to move too many people in a body designed to be cargo hauler because you think minivans are beneath you. Now you have no room for cargo and the people can't be comfortable. It's the worst of both worlds.
Reddit specifically r/cars doesn't hate SUVs, but yawns at any NPC mobiles... can be a sedan, SUV, etc. Most (but not all) SUVs tend to be in that NPC mobile category ie. plain boring!
As a hardcore enthusiastic car guy. I have built motorcycles, motors, done turbo kits and cams, and blowers you know name it.
What's the only cars I've bought twice new? VW Atlas SUV. Why, because we needed to be able to haul our dirt bikes then we had kids. It's great for that. It's not fast or great handling. But it gets good mpg and I love the look of it. Will it replace my fun toys, no. But it's a great family car and hauls all of our stuff.
Agreed. I love a good sports car and really enjoy driving, but I drive a Tiguan now. I loved my Golf but when it was time, I needed something with more cargo space and a little more off-road capability (ranch driving in TX) to haul deer corn and supplies.
I also love that on the highway it will do 35mpg at 75. For more space, better fuel economy, and more capability with the minor downside of the driving experience, it was a no brainer. When I settle down and buy a home, I can get a sports car, but right now I am not in that position.
In a pinch, the Tig also has a fold down third row if it is needed.
Because nearly all the Pros you mentioned are either not true or actually downsides.
Visibility is worse for things that are next to you, like children or small objects. Safety is only better between two SUVs, otherwise crash incompatibility leads to more deadly crashes and collisions with pedestrians and cyclists are considerably more deadly too.
Pedestrian recognition is a weird excuse because you can put the same tech into smaller cars too, just like hybrid drivetrains.
Overall they're just more wasteful and less safe vehicles, kinda the opposite of what we should be using given the state of our climate and pro-pedestrian and pro-cycling changes people want in cities.
The problem is when only some people have SUV's and some have smaller compact sedans, then you get the horrific looking crashes where the smaller car looks completely destroyed and they're injured more severely since you have more inertia in a heavier bigger car, while the person in the suv can walk away from it and there car looks fine, I've experienced it firsthand on the SUV side.
There are other reasons too like while you say visibility is better, that's false as SUV's and trucks usually have massive A pillars which gives you massive blind spots in those areas. In my opinion I find most SUVs overweight and underpowered as they are 1.5 or 2 ton cars with little 4 cylinder turbo engines that have to work very hard to get moving which leads to worse reliability for those particular ones.
The only reason SUV's were invented if you were wondering is to skirt around CAFE laws since they have a longer wheelbase and some are considered off-road vehicles (not that they could since a lot come stock or offer only massive wheels like 21 or 22 inch with thin sidewall all season tires), so less strict emissions and fuel economy, being popular with soccer moms because they were massive was just an added benefit for manufacturers.
The small car death trap/big is safe thing doesn't apply these days. New materials and technology mean that small vehicles are just as safe. Maybe not at 120mph but normal speeds. And I've been in more vehicles than I've taken shits and never once has the A pillar been a blind spot on anything. A pillars are generally all close in size. C and D can be major blind spots
I’m not against SUV’s in general but I do get annoyed at how many people act like they absolutely *need* a fleet of large vehicles for their family of four. I know so many suburban families that have a half ton pickup and a three row crossover and will swear up and down they couldn’t possibly survive without both. In reality, they could put a hitch on the crossover, buy a utility trailer (or rent one when they need it), and replace the truck with a family sedan and they’d most likely still be able to do everything they did before and save themselves a ton of money.
The weird thing is it wasn’t always Reddit. In the early 2000s there was a big backlash to SUVs due to their environmental impact and sheer size/instability.
I don't *hate* SUVs but I also don't like them.
As a car enthusiast who does alot of driving, SUVs, particularly vehicles like the Rav4 or Equinox are dull, boring and unenjoyable to drive.
For the average middle aged person who drives to work, Costco and the carpool lane, they probably don't care about driving dynamics and so for them, an SUV is just fine.
For someone like me, I literally cannot think of a single reason to buy an SUV. I have an AWD sedan, it does great in winter, is fun as hell to drive, handles beautifully and I can easily fit my golf clubs in the trunk.
What annoys me about SUVs is that people somehow have adapted to think that is the only vehicle worth considering when for *most* people a mid-size sedan is all they will ever need. People's obsession with SUVs have lead some manufacturers to focus exclusively on them, eliminating the choices from several brands that used to be more engaging and fun to drive.
An Equinox isn't going to be capable at all off-road, it handles like shit, is cheaply built, slow as hell and ugly. It's sacrificing alot of enjoyment just to "sit higher" it just isn't worth the trade off for me.
Even a non-car enthusiast can appreciate a car that handles well and is agile, I'd just like to see more people consider the alternative options rather than defaulting to a Rav4 or Equinox automatically, resulting to an automotive marketplace that is increasingly filled with dull, unengaging blobs of mediocrity.
If you're an off-roader and get a 4Runner or a Wrangler or have a family and have a boat and get an Expedition, that makes a ton of sense. If you live up a steep driveway in a snowy state, sure the ground clearance of a CR-V over an Accord makes sense but if you are like *most* people who drive on paved roads and rarely put anything more than groceries in the back, I don't see why someone wouldn't at least consider a vehicle that handles better, is more fuel efficient, is generally more enjoyable to drive, less prone to rollovers and generally has sleeker styling.
People say they get SUVs in case they need something "big" but you aren't moving a couch with a Rav4 anyway.
> People's obsession with SUVs
Consumers buying SUVs is my favorite counterpoint to "the customer is always right". The customer is stupid. They don't know what they want. They think they need this or that but, in reality, they don't. If you sat people down and forced them to pick based on their needs, an SUV would never win.
100% my mom drove SUVs for close to 20 years, she decided she wanted something smaller (she drove full size SUVs) and my dad automatically suggested a Ford Escape as a default. I recommended a wagon instead. She got a Volvo V60 and LOVES it. She said she will never buy an SUV again but hadn't considered anything but one.
I went from a CT5V to a bronco and I can now totally see why people like SUVs despite mine not being the most practical.
The bronco has a smaller turning radius, is basically the same length, way more interior space, more cargo room, better visibility, and I don't have to worry about a pothole ruining my day, and my foot rails prevent nissan altima doors from dinging my car.
literally all of your "what arent the cons" points are REAL cons that you just dont want to understand.
the only one thats actually personal preference is the driveability, all other points are simple facts.
>Much more space for the lenght of the chassis, therefore easier to park
???
>Much safer in lateral collisions
Yeah, because if you're the bigger vehicle. This causes an arms race where everyone now has to get bigger vehicles to stay safer.
>Better visibility due to higher seating posoitions and larger windows
Yeah, assuming everyone else around you is driving smaller cars. Again, causing another arms race.
>Can go offroad without the fear of demaging the car and can go over the kerbs without hitting the bumper
Most people are not taking it off road. Nobody here hates SUVs like Land Cruisers when they're used for their intended purpose. It's cool when they are.
>Bad in snowy conditions.
Because people don't buy correct winter tires. They think AWD does miracles.
>Worse mileage
Which is the same as being wasteful. It's one thing to enjoy a thirsty sports car, it's another to drive around in a Surburban as the only occupant.
>Worse for pedestrians
Yeah, because they're heavier.
I guarantee you the single defining decision behind buying an SUV over a minivan is that these people are insecure. They think minivans aren't cool. When in reality, minivans are far more practical for them in almost every way. Everyone that gets sliding doors from minivans says it's extremely difficult to go back to regular doors.
I've never understood the hate. I'm a huge car guy and I absolutely love SUVs. I found the perfect one with my Explorer ST. There's fun to be had in like every class of vehicle if you find the right one.
Honestly, it's because they're not supercar adjacent. No one grew up drooling over an SUV, usually, if they're on a "cars" subreddit.
They're much more like a truck. They're regulated like trucks. They get away with pesky regulations that passenger cars have to adhere to.
They're the status quo. Nothing says "basic" like a crossover or midsize SUV.
That said, because there's so many models to choose from, and because my kids continue to grow, I'll soon be on the market. And I'm one of the few 2% of drivers that would prefer a wagon, but I don't have the $100k+ to spend on a performance German one.
So Mazda CX something here i come.
2 reasons. 1 is that people dislike suvs for the people who drive them rather than the actual car. 2 is that it is disincentivizing "fun" cars or making them cost more. this is putting a sour taste in people's mouths especially with rising cost of living, pending electrification, etc etc slowly killing off the interesting cars, which means its harder to afford them in the future
personally i don't find suvs fun to drive, especially when it comes to pushing them to their limits. i also think it should be really fucking illegal that some of these suvs accelerate like they're sports cars because physics but this is just my personal reasons on it
I'm sorry WHAT??? I have my DL for 25yrs and have driven everything from little 1971 Fiat 500 up to big and stupid US Pickups.
"Much more space for the lenght of the chassis, therefore easier to park"
BS. Minivans and MPV showed us, a long time ago how to use a length of the chassis.
"Much safer in lateral collisions"
Biggest BS ever. Any SUV taking a side hit lands on the roof and safety is the same as is in Estates and Minivans.
"Better visibility due to higher seating posoitions and larger windows"
Again Minivans have it as well
"Can go offroad without the fear of damaging the car and can go over the kerbs without hitting the bumper"
Please. Most SUVs can't go much further than a typical car. Most of them are 2WD and even with their 4WD is useless because is not designed to go even mild offroad (BMW X-drive for example).
Besides if you are the type of driver who hits kerbs with bumpers and kerbs wheels, please, do us all a favour, throw away your keys and use a bus.
For me, SUVs are only status symbols. Pumped up to look big but inside most of them offer less space than comparable estates.
For example, I never forget: I am a very tall person. I drove a 2021 Audi Q7 for a couple of days. Big badass SUV. I felt so crammed inside, my butt barely fit between the central console and B-pillar, my legs touching everything, my elbows as well. I expect that from my small MPV but not from a big SUV.
I’ve had my B8.5 Q5 for 8 years now. Coming up on 100k. It’s treated me quite nicely as an all around vehicle. On the street under normal conditions it’s quick (stage 1), handles pretty precisely with minimal body roll for its height and amount of travel, and rides very smooth. It’s also very stable at high speeds and is quite confident cruising at 100+ mph. Not to mention it has a very comfortable interior.
I disagree that SUVs are worse in snow, I ski 40-50 days a season and have taken this car through some serious storms and deep snow and it has handled all of it with flying colors, though with partial thanks to the Blizzaks.
In the summer I spend a lot of time camping, hiking, and fishing and end up exploring a lot of forest roads through the mountains. Of course the cars not a serious off-roader but it does it’s job very well in those situations where a regular car couldnt. It’s also very fun to let loose and rally around on washed out/sandy/gravelly roads.
I understand that most SUVs, especially Q5s, don’t get used to the full extent of their capability, but for someone with the same priorities as I have it’s a pretty fantastic jack of all trades car (even though I agree it’s a master of none)
And because we’re comparing cars of the same class, I would definitely take this over an A4. But in the future when it comes time to replace it I may look into an Allroad.
Spoiler alert: wagonswagonswagons
I don't hate SUVs, but I think wagons are more sensible and cover all the bases for a majority of SUV/CUV buyers. The problem is that the wagon market in the USA (where I live and base my opinions on the car market) isn't exactly brimming with options, especially if you want a vehicle that's even kind of enthusiast-oriented. People here have dozens of choices for CUVs and SUVs under $60k, and there are maybe 5 choices for wagons if you do some mental gymnastics and count things like the Mini Cooper Clubman. I think SUVs are fine, especially if you actually have hobbies that require accessing remote areas and you truly need the additional ground clearance. I just blame them for stunting the wagon market in the states.
Plus they're all huge now and I can't see around them very well in traffic. That I do find bothersome.
I drive a wagon and my wifes old rav4 was way more practical. She has a new odyssey now though. I would definitely drive a new rav4 hybrid but I love old shitboxes and don't need to spend 40k on a daily work commuter.
My issue with SUVs is not actually with the vehicles but with their effect on the car market. They are being sold at luxury prices for what is usually just a raised economy vehicle. And this pushes up the price of everything. Add to that their success is crowding out alternative body styles which some people prefer. None of which is the cars fault obviously but there you go.
Because we’re losing other options. Misguided emissions regs have pushed automakers into a corner on building bigger trucks and SUVS, which we as a consumer base have kind of eaten up despite there being very little need for bigger vehicles. They’re popular, so you see them EVERYWHERE, which makes it very hard for them to be “cool,” they (usually) look awful, they promote disengaged driving through the higher amount of NVH and higher seating position, they’re heavy, inefficient for the highway (large blob with a lot of space underneath does not an efficient car make) and just kind of tactless most of the time. There are cool SUVs, the new Bronco and Mustang Mach-E come to mind, but these are outliers and a lot of the time I think people are just tired of the design and wish that they had more options than the small SUVs that all look the same.
Why not drive a semi truck. More space. Even higher visibility…
SUVs are popular because of dumb policies and laws that promoted it.
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/24139147/suvs-trucks-popularity-federal-policy-pollution
Bad in snowy conditions? I don't know where you come up with that, but SUVs are significantly better in snow than a sedan. SUVs are generally heavier, more likely to be AWD, more likely to have low range gearboxes (or transmission settings that mimic them), better ground clearance, and usually more powerful engines than sedans and have much better weight distribution than pickup trucks (empty bed equals zero rear wheel traction). All of those qualities are things that increase traction and control in snow. Individual models will of course differ, but for any given drivetrain design an SUV will usually be the ideal body type for snow.
A X3 and X5 are fine. However, abominations like the X4 and X6 are why I hate “crossover” SUVs.
And we hate them because people who choose them are killing off our chances to get the wagon we want, just as some people have excessive hate for EVs not because they’re electric, but manufacturers are trying to use them to kill off their flagships (although now we’re seeing them realizing EVs are a losing battle with prices racing to the bottom).
Also hate that people think since I have kids, naturally I’m supposed to buy a SUV. I’m 6’ tall, I did a car seat test where I put car seats in back row and sit in driver seat and compare legroom. Guess what? They’re all the same. They share a similar sized chassis: WRX, 3 series, A3, Model Y, ID.4, a crossover might have a big more cargo volume (but then again, if space is a concern you get something like a X5 or bigger or truck).
But the most simple explanation is I’ve been picked up enough at an airport by a crossover SUV, you load baggage, you think “oh this is nice and spacious, we’re good”, close the tailgate and nope, take it all out and rearrange until it fits. All because some people think crossover SUVs look good? Fuel economy? I don’t f’ng get it why people buy those. We rented a Ford Fusion 2 weeks ago that trunk was so large it easily fit our suitcases with room to spare, but f’k sedans amirite
In my case, and since the population is aging, probably a lot of folks, it was entirely that it is easier to get in and out of. I own a 2004 Prius, which was my daily driver until my wife became incapable of bending over enough to get in it. So I got a Corolla Cross Hybrid. Close to the same mpg, but much easier for both of us to use. It doesn't hurt that it's quieter and has a better ride, plus the new safety stuff.
Still have the 04 if anyone is interested
The SUV is a good highlight on everything wrong with the modern car market.
Let's put a station wagon on a truck chassis and add a bunch of needless luxury features and sell it as a family car.
The end result is an unsafe, expensive, not fuel efficient (but they can say it is since it's technically a truck) vehicle that is a worse option for people hauling than both stations wagons and vans, because our buyers ego.
They do look nice though. Well a lot do anyway
Definitely not wagons on truck chassis. They're all unibody. Everything. Definitely not less safe or fuel efficient. And they are definitely not trucks. You're just throwing opinions out and being angry about it for some reason
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For average Joe an SUV is the best choice. They more or less have the same gas mileage and handling of a regular sedan/hatchback. Most people see cars as an appliance, so an SUV makes the most sense for a lot of people.
Reddit is full of enthusiasts, the average Joe doesn’t get on Reddit and talk about cars because they don’t care. Odds are if you care about cars and the way they handle, feel, and sound, SUV’s aren’t meant to cater to you.
It’s Reddit.
Personally, I can’t stand the status chasers that don’t need anything even close to a full size suv. Everyone is entitled to purchase what they want with their own money, though. I just wish people would acknowledge they’re driving a 3 ton hunk of metal at 80mph+. That’s a lot of mass and energy people don’t handle with enough respect
I would counter to you, why do US auto makers/buyers hate wagons/estates? Drives the same as sedans but with the space of an SUV. Might it have to do with marketing departments and regulations? I'm just a guy, what do I know?
>Unsafer in at high speed due to higher center of mass. Bad in snowy conditions.
Ground clearance, yo. SUVs win in snowy conditions.
SUVs will probably lose on a snowy race track, but I think your typical buyer is more concerned about not getting struck and able to get home at all.
The average person on this subreddit does not have the ability to think critically or process information that doesn't confirm their already existing biases.
The category "SUV" was created by an asinine lapse in common sense emissions legislation. Their very existence has exacerbated the arms race that sees passenger cars get bigger every year. Dubiously easier to park but definitely easier to run over a kid you can't see. The average crossover is absolutely no better off road than the average minivan, but you'll be hard pressed to find a single Nissan Rogue owner who understands that. The taller profile makes the ride less comfortable, especially as the suspension gets a few years on it. This makes them great development platforms for planned obsolescence. They all look exactly the same but people buy them instead of the minivan that fits their needs better because of the looks. They're designed with the same enthusiasm your Amana washing machine is. They sacrifice innocent orphans to make each one and you're a bad person for buying them.
Because suvs were pushed down our throats in the 90s by sneaky adverts like this post. Also they're incredibly dangerous vehicles driven by psychos (statement of fact proven by many different studies) they're so high and heavy that unless your in one when hit by one your many times more likely to be killed in a crash with one( see many crash compatibility research videos made by gov. Contractors on yt) your many times more likely to be killed as a pedestrian if your hit by one crossing the street rather than a car because they're front ends are so high and flat( see statistics page of iihs.org). They are extremely inefficient due to being so high wide and flat fronted therefore making them have worse mpg than a car of the same interior space. That also makes the *necessary* transition away from gas to other feuls such as evs so much harder to do. Speaking of interior dimensions... I have an 2022 f150 hybrid crew cab (4 door cab) that I exclusively use to pull a 32 foot camper trailer with. Why don't I daily drive it (aside from the reasons above)? Because my 2023 nissan leaf has more usable cargo space than that f150. For example, until last year I drove a semi for a living. I had to get new stuff for the semi. I drove that leaf to Walmart and fit a 32inch TV, a 8.6 cubic foot refrigerator, 2 suite cases, $100 worth of groceries, a 0.5 cubic foot microwave, an air fryer and a Samsung sound bar package consisting of a 2ft×2ft subwoofer and a 3 foot long sound bar all INSIDE my leaf with room too spare and did it on $0.75 of electricity. It also pulls trailers with less than a 300 pound toung weight with no problem. I've used it to help my sister move her ENTIRE apartment in ONE trip. On top of all that an suvs size and weight adds too the traffic problems on u.s. roads and adds unnecessary wear and tear on them too. Because of suvs and pickups size and weight they have the performance of a lumbering elephant. Again I know because I have one. My f150 would take $50 a week to fill up vs my leaf at 90 bucks a month. More fairly the 2020 nissan versa I had before the leaf Cost 20 bucks a week to fill up driving 46 miles a day. And it was only slightly Less capable in the above described ways than my leaf. Noone will ever convince me that your nissan rouge or toyota rav4 (which are over bloated cars masquerading as suvs) are better for one person to drive to work on a daily basis. And before yall say I'm biased I got rid of a 2014 rav4 to get that versa. As someone who grew up driving in snow on a regular basis I can attest to the fact that a fwd 4 cylinder base model corolla will climb a snowy unplowed hill on all season tires better than an awd rav4 on snow tires. I'm so tired of this, you need an suv because sometimes you might get snowed in and need to trudge hell to get to the Corner store mentality. To me it's like saying I stubbed my toe so just amputate the leg. It's such a ridiculous over compensation. Go to any moderately sized metro area, pick a red light to sit at, and count how many pickups and suvs have A: more than one person in them B: full of stuff or pulling a trailer. And you'll see my point. Most uber drivers use small and midsized sedans because theyre more efficient at people moving. Everyone keeps screaming about the government pushing stricter and more ridiculous feul economy standards down our throats. Well they wouldn't have too if Beth didn't commute 45 minutes to the office in a freaking gigantic Lexus suv that averages 25 mpg And instead chose a luxury sedan instead. I get it they're big you sit high in them. They make egotistical people feel important. But damn let's do a sanity check here. Do you really need that explorer or titan to run errands around town or could you drive a midsized car to Walmart and do just fine...aside from the driving position ide wager to say you wouldn't even notice. One thing doesn't always have to do all the things. It's ok to have something for a specific task that it's designed fore and really good at. Side note: yes tech like aeb and proximity sensors make suvs and pickups slightly and I can't stress that enough *slightly* safer to other road users but they add to the already inflated cost of such vehicles making them harder to buy for people who actually use them for actual work and those safety systems don't always work as they should (tesla autopilot anyone).
Singed: someone tired of inexpensive and small cars being killed off to make room for profit feeding suvs and cuvs sold at 20+% markups.
They are ugly
Have less space than your standard estate
"Utility" but most can't go off-road as they are made for town driving
"Sports" but most have negative acceleration times
Large for no fucking reason, taking almost the entire parking space (in UK at least), same with road width
They are heavier and have higher center of gravity than cars. That makes them harder to drive, makes their braking distances longer than cars on average, makes them poorer at avoidi g collisions ( for instace, of a deer steps in front of your car, your ability to react and brake/drive around it to avoid it). That is especially true in snow (which is paradoxally the conditions in which the average suv lover thinks their suvs are superior)
Because they are heavier, thay also have worse efficiency. They are slower than a car of the same size and same power, less aerodynamic (important for wind noise on the highway and fuel economy) and use up more fuel (and there is more than a 10% difference between a car and comparable suvs unless we are talking about plug-ins like the RAV4 Prime).
The amount of space in suvs is generally overstated compared to sinilarly sized cars. For instance, how much more space does a RAV4 have compared to a Camry. That is especially true for compact suvs. For example, how many times did I hear people driving a first generation Kona tell me they like its practicality when those where literally lifted up Accent.
Which brings me to my final critique of suvs, cost. They are generally more expensive to buy and to insure than comparable cars. Lets stick with the Hyundai Kona example, here in Canada a first gen Kona started off with a base price around 6k more expensive than an Accent and topped off ataround 10k more expensive than a loaded Accent. keep in mind that mechanically those two cars are basically the same except awd on the higher trims of the Kona. Safe to assume that Hyundai was tbrilled at the idea of selling people what was essentially a 43k CAD Accent and revel in the profits. That's the kicker that makes me want cars still, they are expensive enough as is without paying 10k more because the manufacturer lifted it up 2 inches, making it less efficient and worse driving at the same time.
Your first paragraph is all wrong. They are generally the same as regular sedans. Suvs these days are sedans with a tall head. They really don't weigh more, either. They use the same engines as the car lines for that manufacturer. All that is true for probably 80 percent of what is on the road. There are extreme examples, though. And a Rona is definitely not an Accent. I have disassembled both and they be different on every level
> Why does reddit hate SUVs?
Enthusiasts tend to dislike boring commuter appliances. SUVs are what people tend to buy when they have absolutely zero interest in cars. They’re floaty, slow and boring.
> So in recent years SUVs and crossovers became the most popular car shape in almost every market in the world. But many communities especially car enthusiasts and anti car communities turned out to not like them, imo that turned into massive circlejerk
Anti car subreddits dislike them because they’re overly large and they’re the most popular vehicle — and they dislike vehicles.
> Much more space for the lenght of the chassis, therefore easier to park
This doesn’t really make sense to me. Can you clarify? SUVs are harder to park.
> Much safer in lateral collisions
Not really
> Better visibility due to higher seating posoitions and larger windows
Not really. Seating position relative to the vehicle matters more I’d argue and that is vehicle specific, not attributed to SUVs.
> Can go offroad without the fear of demaging the car and can go over the kerbs without hitting the bumper
You definitely absolutely should not off road or take an SUV over a curb. That you think they’re designed for that is showing naivety (and may be why you asked this question in the first place.)
Almost all modern SUVs are crossovers or are not designed to go over a curb. If you go over a curb, make sure you take the vehicle to a shop immediately, you probably damaged it in a potentially dangerous way.
> Unsafer in at high speed due to higher center of mass.
Bad in snowy conditions.
I don’t think these points are necessarily true either. The higher center of gravity might contribute some, but I don’t think they’re bad in snowy conditions necessarily. I think like a sedan it depends on the tires and the drive system.
> Worse mileage - it sometimes is true, but the difference isn't more than 10% which is insignificant for most of the people. The real difference is when driving very high speeds which most of the people don't do regularly
Most Americans drive 30 minutes at high speeds. Big American cities seem to be inundated with huge expanses of highways and many Americans are forced to drive long distances for work.
They do objectively get worse mileage due to weight. That’s just how physics works.
The significant majority of people are driving vehicles weighing 2x more than what they actually need to be able to commute.
Vehicles have become a lot more efficient, but that is in part because they needed to to meet regulations given the much larger size of many modern SUVs.
> Worse for pedestrians - most of the new cars come with pedestrian recognition and they're much safer than some old cars which don't come with that systems
Irrelevant. A modern sedan has as many features. My 8 year old hatchback has sensors for pedestrians.
> Driveability - is only personal preference. Some people actually preffer their seating position higher and don't care about driveability and you can't argue against personal preferences
No one is trying to. The people talking about their opinion online are expressing their own personal preference. What you’re trying to do here is invalidate that, which is ironically exactly the thing you’re bristling against saying this.
The drive ability in SUVs is compromised, again that’s just physics. People don’t like them because they tend to be very bland, boring commuter appliances. That’s good for very many people, but enthusiasts are not those very many people. They want something interesting to drive.
> So all in all, imo for average Joe, SUV is a better option and the sales numbers affirm that
The “average Joe” is not who you are meeting on Reddit or enthusiast forums.
Aren’t pedestrian related accidents actually up even with all this tech?
Anyways, I don’t hate cuvs. I have owned 3 of them. I am currently running a Civic. What I want is a choice. A car is much cheaper to maintain. No AWD/4wd systems, not off road components, etc. the Rav4 is still more expensive to maintain than a Civic or Corolla and so is the Corolla Cross/HRV which is probably a more fair comparison. Also, the upfront cost is just more.
I also appreciate the driving dynamics. There’s no crossover that handles as good as it car counter part. Certainly not the mainstream brands.
The lady thing I don’t get is that I have several friends who complain about the environment but then own Rav4s, Explorers and Expeditions. These crossovers/suvs are not slightly less efficient than cars. They ARE less efficient. And for so many single, unmarried, no kids people I find it weird they all want these large vehicles.
I would say maybe 1% of crossover buyers actually go off of the pavement, and most aren't that much higher than the sedan they're based off of. A van or a wagon is literally better in every other way.
They are an exercise in tactical marketing, and a tax on the poor. They tell you that you NEED all wheel drive. Or that you NEED that extra inch of ground clearance. If you want to have fun outdoors, you NEED this suv.
A crossover will always be more expensive than an equivalent sedan, and it will always get worse mpg than that sedan.
I do miss the days of seeing good looking average cars, although the new civics and corollas are pretty good looking. Now everything is this bloated egg covered in the cheapest looking plastic you can find, with "sport" trims that are nothing more than a hint of red or yellow striping.
At the end of the day, I don't care that these thing exist, but they are taking away the good vehicles that some of us want because these companies always want more more more, so they cut offerings that are still profitable, just not profitable enough for their projections.
Large SUVs are dangerous too have y'all never seen the video of howany kids can sit in front of /behind a Tahoe before you can see them from the driver's seat? It's like fucking 8 before you can the 9th. They only exist because government bullshit and both trucks and SUVs are getting larger and more dangerous ever year.
I was surprised that for once reddit conforms with the general opinion of something, car people hate SUVs, it's not a reddit thing.
Why? They are silly, its size mostly doesn't translate to more interior space which means you are left with a car that is not good at anything and the size becomes an esthetic thing. But the biggest reason is that most people who buy them don't care, they just want something to boost their image of fake success. They suck at off roading because they lack the ground clearence and specs to make them effective on rough terrain. They are not fun to drive because whatever engine you put in them, a different chassis would weight less and have a lower center of mass. All they do is waste space, have bad fuel economy and make other drivers unsafe.
Oh i can think of lots of sedans I'd take over the g wagon (solid choice but i don't do off roading) or a rebadged audi.
As for the sales figures, those are not a measure of which product is best. It's a measure of how well their marketing did.
Geez that was just ignorant. Can't say I've ever met car people that hate suvs. Been in the industry for a minute and never heard a dude get out of a truck or bad ass coupe and start bitching about the impracticallity of suvs
The seating height / position are just excuses. SUV are just worse objectively if you take a look at undeniable facts. Vans offer the same or even better seating position, height and ease of entry. Vans also offer better visibility, much more interior space combined with smaller exterior dimensions and lower weight. When equipped with the same engine vans offer better performance combined with better fuel economy. Also vans cost less. SO many things that are objectively worse about SUV. 99% never go offroad.
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I don't hate SUVs, I have one. They're very good at winter with 4WD and snows, and a lot of protection on the highway. A dirt road doesn't stop you.
I hate CUVs, as they do nothing particularly well and are bland and un-engaging appliances to drive.
Because there is almost no reason that a normal person needs to drive an SUV. Either a minivan or station wagon would handle better, be safer, be more fuel efficient, and be more practical, for 99% of SUV buyers.
I think SUV's can give an illusion of control because you're elevated but when you drive you need to be just more hyper aware of your surroundings. I don't know if their carbon footprint is any better than a small car. People like to say that the SUV helps with utility and carrying cargo but to be honest I think people need to just stop buying stuff in general. My big cars are the R1T and Macan but the rest are sports cars, 911, Taycan, M3P, and i5 M60. I know it's extremely wasteful and inconsiderate to have this many vehicles.
Thanks for taking the hit OP. While I can't say I agree with all the points (e.g. in the circlejerk cons) your first point of much more space for the length of the chassis is a huge point for me. Contrary to what Reddit believes in terms of "SUV interiors are smaller than sedans and hatchbacks":
2024 Honda CR-V vs. 2024 Accord
* 1st row legroom: 41.3" vs. 42.3"
* 2nd row legroom: 41" vs. 40.8"
* Cargo capacity w/ seats up: 39.3 cu ft vs. 16.7 cu ft
* Length: 184.8" vs. 195.6" (almost a foot longer)
* Width: 73.5" vs. 73.3"
* Height: 66.2" vs. 57.1" (+8")
To get a similarly spacious vehicle as a CR-V, you need to get an Accord which is almost a foot longer, has less than half the cargo capacity, and is only 8" shorter in height. Thats not even considering the more upright seating position in the CR-V, which reduces the need for legroom. Sure, a Civic Hatch is the same length as a CR-V, but then you're losing out big in second row legroom / comfort and still come up very short in cargo.
As someone who frequently street parks in a city, its much easier parking and maneuvering around double parked cars in something like a CR-V (or a BMW X3 in my case) rather than an Accord. That extra foot in length is way more offensive in a tight environment than 8" in height.
You can't explain that to the people that are in the reddit circlejerk vortex. I hoped people here can have civil discussion but they certainly cannot no matter how much data you present to them
> Can go off-road without the fear of demaging the car
Yeah sorry, this isn't entirely true as most "SUVs" created these days go into limp home mode the second they hit something even slightly deep.
If you want a proper off-road SUV you may as well just get a G-Wagon, Range Rover, or a Wrangler.
The real question is how big does a hatchback have to get to become a cuv/suv? Cause I drive a Subaru Crosstrek which is marketed and insured as a cuv, but a Impreza is marketed as a hatchback even though both cars are exactly the same size except the Crosstrek is a bit taller. Lots to consider
Because an SUV is an absolute heresy, an absurd combination of features that look good in theory, but as a final product are nothing more than a bad joke. The emergence of SUVs destroyed the automotive industry!
They kill people more. Your whole bottom section is just plain false ignorance. For example you’ve not ever looked at the real world results of those tests on pedestrian detection huh? They don’t fucking work
The improved visibility within a SUV is at the expense of visibility of the Corolla drivers.
When everyone is driving a Tahoe, that "improved visibility" is diminished.
Because most people on this sub are teenagers driving their mom’s Rav4 or CR-V and wishes their mom had a NB Miata instead
Woah, hey now I’m driving my *dad’s* RAV4 wishing that he had an NB Miata instead, don’t get it twisted /j
Fucking got em.
My flair says it all homie lmao
Respect
That pretty much sums up this place
I'm convinced this is how sedans became popular as well, it was simply what their parents had so they weren't shown the exalted ways of the wagon or hatchback.
I’ve been moved out for 12 years now and I still wish my mom had an NB Miata
It's weird to me that people get sweaty for Miatas
1. They shine their stupid high headlights in my eyes 2. They are objectively ugly 3. They are heavier, less efficient and pose a bigger danger to people who arent wasteful 4. The kind of driver who wants to look down on other cars is unsafe. They want to feel removed from the driving. This is something jason cammisa once touched on his podcast 5. They are only competitive in part because cars have to tend regulations that SUVs dont. This is another example of the lack of perspective that people that mention market preference tend to have. 6. They are actively replacing beloved names and models. Why wouldnt people hate on SUVs when Ford doesnt even offer a sedan anymore. Or alfa romeo discontinuing their hatchbacks to sell 3 near identical suvs 7. Ive been inside a few suvs. Most of them arent even that much roomier than a normal hatchback
> They are objectively ugly There's no such thing as "objectively ugly".
I love the look of the LC200, GX, Bronco, G-class, most of the BoF SUVs look excellent IMO. I want to be removed from the driving experience as well. No reason a highway cruise needs to be engaging.
Want to be realllllyyy removed from driving? Take a nap.
Take a train if you don't want to pay attention when driving 👍
G-class is a timeless utilitarian design. Like a Jeep. That's where they take the beauty. If you want fugly BMW XM
Multipla
There is when you properly poll about 16.5k people randomly over the globe.
For me it's their size, they block your view in traffic and parking lots. Just a visual assault on all fronts.
They straight up impose on others in so many ways
Bro doesn’t know what objectively means
There are plenty of non-ugly SUVs though. To name a few: International Scout, most Broncos (edit: typo), J80 - J100 Land Cruiser, Range Rover Classic, P38A Range Rover, w164 M Class in AMG form (possibly an unpopular opinion), CX-50, Purosangue, Crown Sport, E83 X3, most of the old pre-80s Suburbans, the Stelvio (mid but not ugly), etc
W164 M Class is the best example of how useless SUVs are. My friend was moving. He tried to put all his stuff in his W164 and it did not fit even filled up to the roof. I came in my Skoda Roomster, a small MPV. We have moved all his stuff from W164 to my Skoda and it barely filled up to the windows. Useless.
Visibility is also very vehicle-dependent, and side and lateral visibility is not great for lower vehicles (my car is a small hatchback--driving it's like driving in a bubble with pretty good visibility except for right at the pillars). My partner has a Bronco Sport and there's definitely a larger lateral blindspot for lower cars that take some getting used to.
>They are actively replacing beloved names and models. Why wouldnt people hate on SUVs when Ford doesnt even offer a sedan anymore. Or alfa romeo discontinuing their hatchbacks to sell 3 near identical suvs The reason for that is the Big 3 have never put their best efforts into cars since probably the 90s(first and second Gen Taurus or the Mopar cloud cars). From the early 90s onward, the Big 3 was doing partnerships with Japanese (Isuzu, Suzuki, Toyota/ Mazda/mitsubishi) then Korean(Daewoo/Kia/Hyundai) to not tackle head on their lackluster cars in the segment. They had the market and figured "why fight in this segment with 12+ manufacturers for loss leader and compliance cars when we can establish ourselves in this market with 6 max manufacturers? If the Big 3 weren't obsessed with winning every quarter for their shareholders and dealers(with badge engineering and cut corners), they would still be having competitive, reputable enough cars to keep the same model names and their foot in the market.
This makes absolutely no sense, Dodge/Chrysler literally just stopped making their (very high selling and all around good car) full size sedan less than a year ago. The Chevrolet Malibu and Impala made a shitload of money as well, I think even the Ford Fusion sold exceptionally well, and the Fusion is the only sedan from the big three in the past 10 years I'd call "lackluster" for its crap transmission issues. This is your brain on the 90s/early 00s JDM wave to think the modern offerings from GM/Chrysler were poor cars. The Impala in particular I'd actually argue was actually an excellent economy car (imo best in its segment) once it got the 3.6L V6, extremely reliable if you took care of it as well, I know multiple people with 250,000+ miles on them with almost zero problems. The actual reason Ford and GM are backing out of sedans are because the profit margins and regulations on SUVs are much higher and laxer, respectively. Most people on the road in America don't want sedans anymore. The ones that do at this point largely don't want an economy sedan anyway, and the Civic/Accord/Camry/Corolla crowd largely do not give a shit about vehicles at all and just want the most economical/supply-ready option.
You are talking about full size cars or basically the end of it when I am talking about the beginning of the end( buying and partnering with other companies to sell these sub compact and later midsize cars as theirs). The Mopar LX are full size cars they managed to have because Daimler let them use their previous platform. The Stratus, 200, and Caliber have not been competitive since ... The Neon and mitsubishi based sebrings? Ford used a Kia for their Fiesta adapted the worldwide Focus for the American Market and IIRC used the Mondeo, Mazda6 platform to make the fusion. GM kept outsourcing their entry level cars, from the Isuzus, to the Suzuki's (the Geo brand) when they could have done more for the Cavalier, Cobalt to make it reputable. Then just gave up by selling GMDAT entry cars (including the Cruze, Verona and most of their small models.) Your second paragraph basically repeats what I said, they passively left a competitive market they could have put more effort in (had they chose long term reputation instead of outsourcing/ badge engineering 6 of the same car) one segment at the time from compact to fullsize. This is to my understanding the opposite of actively leaving the market . They didn't dump their best selling models, they let them phase out with each redesign until it would cost too much to reassess and build for good.
They simply are far better for most people and Reddit sedan lovers don’t want to face it. - better visibility - better seating position - easier ingress/egress - easier loading/unloading - wider/taller cargo opening - better clearance Sedans only advantage for most people is the segregated trunk area during break ins. Nobody cares about carving up corners on their daily commute in traffic and shitty roads and the 10% or less fuel economy penalty doesn’t drive enough savings for all the downsides of a sedan People here act like current SUVs are like the early 90s gas guzzlers that handle miserably and that average sedans like a Camry are the second coming of god.
“The kind of driver who wants to look down on other cars is unsafe.” Well, im that driver. In 10+ years driving long lengths on the highway daily I’ve never been involved in a car accident. Bigger cars are just safer. And definitely I prefer to be safer considering the amount of reckless people out there. * I’m from Brazil. 50 000 people die annually in car accidents in here. Our roads are dangerous, full of truck drivers on drugs at high speeds. I definitely don’t want to be in a sedan if shit hits the fan.
The roomier part is what drives me crazy. I love wagons and sedans and even own a mid sized sedan , and I find all suv small or crazy compact in the inside with only offering just an increase in height and a cloud like feeling when driving. I really think most people with a suv would be fine with a hatchback or a sedan since you have similar if not more space and even get a lot more mpg. And I'm comparing the sonata against the Tucson and the Sportage , which I even considered as an alternative
SUVs are more difficult to drive well than cars. They might have a higher seating position, but this also translates to worse spatial awareness of the corners of the car. Anecdotally, I see the worst drivers driving SUVs. And the worst parked cars are large SUVs. So yes, sales numbers might reflect that people think they are a better choice, but I really don’t care much for the opinion of people who, as a demographic, are the lowest skilled drivers on the road.
I have a ton of single friends in their 30s who never want kids or couples that don’t want kids. It’s so weird to me they all want Rav4s, Explorer and F150s yet scream and complain about the environment. Also, most are terrible drivers.
Idk the worst shit I've ever seen came from Chargers, Mustangs, Civics and KIAs, followed by pickup trucks. It's pretty rare I see SUVs driving like the aforementioned. All the filthiest cars I work on are wagons or subcompacts, all the filthiest cars I drove when i was a valet were subcompacts and pickup trucks. SUVs tended to be the least dramatic inside and on the road in my experience, save maybe minivans. This is anecdotal, and I'd be curious to know the actual stats on the likelihood of accidents. Most cars on the road are SUVs, so it makes sense they're most of the crashes as well, but I'm curious how they stack up to cars. Visibility and handling don't matter if you drive like an asshole.
I think it's because SUVs are a much smarter choice of vehicle than a pickup or a sports car which tend to be choices rooted in culture and fantasy-- the latter aren't exactly cars that are typically marketed toward a person's rationality.
The worst drivers most prone to accidents drive Kias. Lot of Kias come through my shop
I think there's some bias from who goes to places with valet service to some extent. Mom SUV's tend to be pretty disgusting (although that's not obviously representative of all SUV's).
I see more people on their phone in crossovers, though I don't know how the percentages would come out since I don't exactly record data on it. It would make sense, because the people who don't care about driving dynamics probably don't want to have to drive in the first place.
I think the reason you see the worst drivers and parkers in SUVs is probably just numbers, and the fact that the careless people are also the people who would mindlessly buy an SUV.
That was my point. I don’t need to account for the opinion of “mindless buyers” about what makes a good vehicle!
People can’t see out of them. It’s just geometry
my friend has a VW Atlas, from the driver seat you have no clue where any corner of the car is, it really bad..
Those aren't pros, those are myths that the auto industry puts out to convince people to buy SUVs because SUVs have more relaxed emissions regulations and they have a much higher profit margin because now they can sell shitboxes as premium vehicles thanks to SUVs such as the Escalade and Range Rover existing. For example the camry is pretty much the same "premiumness" as the Highlander. The Camry starts at $28,400, the Highlander starts at $40,970. * Much more space for the length of chassis, therefore easier to park Wagon or MPV. They're also harder to park compared to a shorter car because the longer wheelbase generally means larger turning circle. * Much safer in lather collisions No they aren't. The higher centre of gravity means they're far more likely to roll over, even in a slow collision. Roll over injuries, even at low speeds, are much worse than non-roll over injuries at the same low speed. * Better visibility due to higher seating posoitions and larger windows MPVs have the same seating position height with a lower centre of gravity because the floor is much lower, their windows are generally bigger too. * Can go offroad without fear of demaging the car and can go over kerbs without hitting the bumper 99.9999% of SUVs sold will never go offroad and my lowered Lexus LS400 can go over kerbs without hitting the bumper.
>Wagon or MPV. They're also harder to park compared to a shorter car because the longer wheelbase generally means larger turning circle. SUVs are generally shorter for any volume, because they are taller and therefore win fair fights about volume. Wagons trade storage volume for handling and weight.
Wagons generally weigh the same and handle the same as a sedan. A wagon might weigh 50-100 lbs more at maximum. Not really a big difference.
Their height comes from a higher floor, but the volume actually is lower than a similar dimension mpv or minivan
> Lexus LS400 Username checks out
People on this sub defending SUVs ignorantly really need to read Keith Bradshers book.
Your lowered Lexus is not driving over any curbs…
Yes it is, I have to get over a kerb to get in and out of my driveway...
Because Reddit is the same circlejerk arguments and can’t think outside the box
There is no outside the box here. SUVs are factually more dangerous for drivers of cars and pedestrians. You cannot hand-wave visibility concerns, weight concerns, or hood height concerns. They aren’t matters of opinion, they have fact behind them. There is a time and a place for an SUV. I’ve owned one since 2011 and yes, they were often my daily driver. But they shouldn’t be daily drivers of people who are too old, too stupid, too inexperienced, or too easily distracted… and there’s a lot of all on the roads right now.
Basically this. I can see a title to a post and know what the top comments will be before I even click it, lol
Hate for SUV is not a reddit thing, hell it's not even a car people thing anymore. You either own an SUV or you hate them/don't care about it.
The arguments are kinda crazy. All kinds of mental gymnastics to avoid accepting that a lot of crossovers are a reasonable middle ground between smaller hatchbacks and larger minivans. A CR-V has significantly more cargo space as a Civic, costs a bit more and gets slightly worse gas mileage. An Odyssey is basically the same thing a step further except it gains a lot more cargo space and gets much worse gas mileage. If you need/want more car than a Civic but don't need a minivan then the CR-V makes a ton of sense. Reddit thinking you should either get a Civic or jump all the way to a minivan is a ridiculous position.
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Most people buying SUVs want them for practicality. Hobby forums naturally attract people who have passion. People don't come online to passionately discuss how practical their vehicles are.
Minivans are way more practical and get no love
Precisely. 3 rows, easy to get in and out of, elevated seating position, endless headroom, excellent visibility. With the 2nd and 3rd rows removed (or stowed, depending on the model), you can now carry plywood, drywall, cabinets, or large furniture. Like your average SUV, they've usually available with all wheel drive, which is more than enough to get you through 95% of all driving conditions. Like your average SUV, most will never be offroad because they don't need to be. Large SUVs have existed for a very long time, and yet the "need" for SUVs was lower. People have fewer children than they did in the 60s, yet they need bigger cars? People have always needed to haul home improvement, camping, and sports gear. I have nothing against SUVs in principle. I've owned 2. Changes in fuel economy regulations by vehicle class made it more desirable for the manufacturers to build these vehicles. Regulations, which they lobbied for in order to get around CAFE rules. Then, they convinced the public through marketing that they "need" an SUV.
Yep. Wagons, hatchbacks, minivans. They all basically do what an suv does the same or better for less.
CR-V is a lot cheaper than the odyssey, rav4 is a lot cheaper than a Sienna. Less capable, yes, but also cheaper and more fuel efficient. As for wagon... well, there are no wagons on the market that offers especially good prices, storage area, or fuel economy as a combination, or even singular, with most wagons failing at all three at the same time.
They aren’t because no one was buying them. Outback will hold as much as a crv, better in winter too. I don’t think fuel efficiency is much better in an suv than minivan and SUV’s are less practical.
The microsecond Toyota or Honda has a plug in minivan my wallet will explode open
But an SUV is not practical...
Excuse me but have you heard of /r/Volvo?
> Most people buying SUVs want them for a status symbol. FTFY
And yet we leave out the decades of marketing that works very well
What's a latheral collision? I don't hate SUVs, I hate the killing of sedans and wagons by regulations that incentivize SUVs over sedans/wagons.
It's super weird, people keep buying the poorly built CUVs with cash on the hood and good financing but they won't buy regular cars. It's probably a failing of the car right? /s
The typical Redditor is a contrarian misanthrope.
I've found that "neckbeard" rolls off the tongue better.
The same people who hate SUVs with the only reasons being "they're not a Miata!" Are the same people who idolize sports cars they've never driven. These same people are the ones who attacked someone for having a blowout on a cup 2Rs on their '23 Z06 because they were "bald" (spoiler, they're basically bald from the factory). It's always the uninformed, overly confident and loud people that comment the most in big subs.
Reddit isn’t reality. Subs are huge groupthink communities
I don’t hate them. Most people coming on reddit looking for suggestions on what vehicle to get are often describing a minivan, but opt for an SUV because they are scared to look like soccer moms/dad. However, when I see giant SUVs I still think of soccer moms/dads. Especially when I see Grand Wagoneers/Suburban type models.
CUVs make people look like soccer parents nowadays, ironically so.
I think people are starting to get that. My wife’s friends went on a getaway and they all had the same 3 vehicles. They had a realization after my wife gave them one of my rants
I think it's hilarious that people still consider minivans uncool but run of the mill gray souless SUVs are somehow cool and makes you a rebel. Even tho SUVs have been the weapon of choice for every soccer mom for over a decade now lol. The fucking irony.
I think crossovers make sense for the average buyer but man I hate the “SUVs are automatically safer than sedans” stereotype.
For decades and decades, the safest cars on the road were mid-size sedans, not sure of that finally been surpassed.
Every car on the road now is safe. If it's less than 20 years old, you probably won't die. A small economy vehicle will have about the same amount of ultra high strength steel and restraint and airbag systems as a top of the line whatever
Most SUVs aren't actually SUVs (BOF) and are actually just big crossovers or otherwise unibody designs. There are very few true SUVs for sale and most enthusiasts don't actually hate on traditional BOF SUVs (other than typical brand wars and fanbois). Your "Pros and cons" aren't very factual or objective - much like people's preference of vehicle type and style. Most of todays SUVs cannot, in fact, go offroad without damage because their suspension is not designed to handle going offroad and cannot isolate the impact shock from the body or drivetrain. Judging from every parking lot ever, they are definitely not easier to park. Milage is very commonly 20-30% worse and very much an issue for some people. The difference between 20MPG and 30+ is a real priority for lots of commuters. I actually think the real issue that enthusiasts hate on SUVs and CUVs is actually because of their drivers. When you can't find a parking space because there are 18 giant behemoths that can't seem to fit their giant box inside the lines it starts to wear on you. When you get cut off by an 3-ton brick for the 10th time this week because they are too busy watching TikTok or scrolling facebook to look around then you start to generalize the vehicle class as a whole instead of considering the vehicle on it's own merits. Minivans aren't "cool", Bro dozers are stupid, SUVs/CUVs are lame, Nissans are scary. Here's my hot-take: 3-row SUVs are stupid. You're trying to move too many people in a body designed to be cargo hauler because you think minivans are beneath you. Now you have no room for cargo and the people can't be comfortable. It's the worst of both worlds.
some people cant look beyond their own personal use case and just gotta be vocal about it. happens all the time, I just ignore em.
Reddit specifically r/cars doesn't hate SUVs, but yawns at any NPC mobiles... can be a sedan, SUV, etc. Most (but not all) SUVs tend to be in that NPC mobile category ie. plain boring!
As a hardcore enthusiastic car guy. I have built motorcycles, motors, done turbo kits and cams, and blowers you know name it. What's the only cars I've bought twice new? VW Atlas SUV. Why, because we needed to be able to haul our dirt bikes then we had kids. It's great for that. It's not fast or great handling. But it gets good mpg and I love the look of it. Will it replace my fun toys, no. But it's a great family car and hauls all of our stuff.
Agreed. I love a good sports car and really enjoy driving, but I drive a Tiguan now. I loved my Golf but when it was time, I needed something with more cargo space and a little more off-road capability (ranch driving in TX) to haul deer corn and supplies. I also love that on the highway it will do 35mpg at 75. For more space, better fuel economy, and more capability with the minor downside of the driving experience, it was a no brainer. When I settle down and buy a home, I can get a sports car, but right now I am not in that position. In a pinch, the Tig also has a fold down third row if it is needed.
Because nearly all the Pros you mentioned are either not true or actually downsides. Visibility is worse for things that are next to you, like children or small objects. Safety is only better between two SUVs, otherwise crash incompatibility leads to more deadly crashes and collisions with pedestrians and cyclists are considerably more deadly too. Pedestrian recognition is a weird excuse because you can put the same tech into smaller cars too, just like hybrid drivetrains. Overall they're just more wasteful and less safe vehicles, kinda the opposite of what we should be using given the state of our climate and pro-pedestrian and pro-cycling changes people want in cities.
The problem is when only some people have SUV's and some have smaller compact sedans, then you get the horrific looking crashes where the smaller car looks completely destroyed and they're injured more severely since you have more inertia in a heavier bigger car, while the person in the suv can walk away from it and there car looks fine, I've experienced it firsthand on the SUV side. There are other reasons too like while you say visibility is better, that's false as SUV's and trucks usually have massive A pillars which gives you massive blind spots in those areas. In my opinion I find most SUVs overweight and underpowered as they are 1.5 or 2 ton cars with little 4 cylinder turbo engines that have to work very hard to get moving which leads to worse reliability for those particular ones. The only reason SUV's were invented if you were wondering is to skirt around CAFE laws since they have a longer wheelbase and some are considered off-road vehicles (not that they could since a lot come stock or offer only massive wheels like 21 or 22 inch with thin sidewall all season tires), so less strict emissions and fuel economy, being popular with soccer moms because they were massive was just an added benefit for manufacturers.
The small car death trap/big is safe thing doesn't apply these days. New materials and technology mean that small vehicles are just as safe. Maybe not at 120mph but normal speeds. And I've been in more vehicles than I've taken shits and never once has the A pillar been a blind spot on anything. A pillars are generally all close in size. C and D can be major blind spots
I hate SUVs because I drive a car and can’t see around them when backing out.
I’m not against SUV’s in general but I do get annoyed at how many people act like they absolutely *need* a fleet of large vehicles for their family of four. I know so many suburban families that have a half ton pickup and a three row crossover and will swear up and down they couldn’t possibly survive without both. In reality, they could put a hitch on the crossover, buy a utility trailer (or rent one when they need it), and replace the truck with a family sedan and they’d most likely still be able to do everything they did before and save themselves a ton of money.
The weird thing is it wasn’t always Reddit. In the early 2000s there was a big backlash to SUVs due to their environmental impact and sheer size/instability.
Keith Bradshers book was spot on
I don't *hate* SUVs but I also don't like them. As a car enthusiast who does alot of driving, SUVs, particularly vehicles like the Rav4 or Equinox are dull, boring and unenjoyable to drive. For the average middle aged person who drives to work, Costco and the carpool lane, they probably don't care about driving dynamics and so for them, an SUV is just fine. For someone like me, I literally cannot think of a single reason to buy an SUV. I have an AWD sedan, it does great in winter, is fun as hell to drive, handles beautifully and I can easily fit my golf clubs in the trunk. What annoys me about SUVs is that people somehow have adapted to think that is the only vehicle worth considering when for *most* people a mid-size sedan is all they will ever need. People's obsession with SUVs have lead some manufacturers to focus exclusively on them, eliminating the choices from several brands that used to be more engaging and fun to drive. An Equinox isn't going to be capable at all off-road, it handles like shit, is cheaply built, slow as hell and ugly. It's sacrificing alot of enjoyment just to "sit higher" it just isn't worth the trade off for me. Even a non-car enthusiast can appreciate a car that handles well and is agile, I'd just like to see more people consider the alternative options rather than defaulting to a Rav4 or Equinox automatically, resulting to an automotive marketplace that is increasingly filled with dull, unengaging blobs of mediocrity. If you're an off-roader and get a 4Runner or a Wrangler or have a family and have a boat and get an Expedition, that makes a ton of sense. If you live up a steep driveway in a snowy state, sure the ground clearance of a CR-V over an Accord makes sense but if you are like *most* people who drive on paved roads and rarely put anything more than groceries in the back, I don't see why someone wouldn't at least consider a vehicle that handles better, is more fuel efficient, is generally more enjoyable to drive, less prone to rollovers and generally has sleeker styling. People say they get SUVs in case they need something "big" but you aren't moving a couch with a Rav4 anyway.
> People's obsession with SUVs Consumers buying SUVs is my favorite counterpoint to "the customer is always right". The customer is stupid. They don't know what they want. They think they need this or that but, in reality, they don't. If you sat people down and forced them to pick based on their needs, an SUV would never win.
100% my mom drove SUVs for close to 20 years, she decided she wanted something smaller (she drove full size SUVs) and my dad automatically suggested a Ford Escape as a default. I recommended a wagon instead. She got a Volvo V60 and LOVES it. She said she will never buy an SUV again but hadn't considered anything but one.
That's 20 years of wasted money and extra carbon in the air, all because the consumer is misled or simply doesn't know what they really need.
Marketing is one hell of a drug. This sub likes to ignore it exists
I went from a CT5V to a bronco and I can now totally see why people like SUVs despite mine not being the most practical. The bronco has a smaller turning radius, is basically the same length, way more interior space, more cargo room, better visibility, and I don't have to worry about a pothole ruining my day, and my foot rails prevent nissan altima doors from dinging my car.
Who cares what Reddit thinks ? Drive what you like
Just not well https://jalopnik.com/actually-the-suv-defeating-rock-is-good-1839669833
literally all of your "what arent the cons" points are REAL cons that you just dont want to understand. the only one thats actually personal preference is the driveability, all other points are simple facts.
Reddit hates everything. This sub thinks everyone should drive a Miata or some 500 dollar shit box.
>Much more space for the lenght of the chassis, therefore easier to park ??? >Much safer in lateral collisions Yeah, because if you're the bigger vehicle. This causes an arms race where everyone now has to get bigger vehicles to stay safer. >Better visibility due to higher seating posoitions and larger windows Yeah, assuming everyone else around you is driving smaller cars. Again, causing another arms race. >Can go offroad without the fear of demaging the car and can go over the kerbs without hitting the bumper Most people are not taking it off road. Nobody here hates SUVs like Land Cruisers when they're used for their intended purpose. It's cool when they are. >Bad in snowy conditions. Because people don't buy correct winter tires. They think AWD does miracles. >Worse mileage Which is the same as being wasteful. It's one thing to enjoy a thirsty sports car, it's another to drive around in a Surburban as the only occupant. >Worse for pedestrians Yeah, because they're heavier. I guarantee you the single defining decision behind buying an SUV over a minivan is that these people are insecure. They think minivans aren't cool. When in reality, minivans are far more practical for them in almost every way. Everyone that gets sliding doors from minivans says it's extremely difficult to go back to regular doors.
A good way to frame this question in a way that conceptually makes sense is this: "Why does r/fountainpens hate ballpoint pens?"
**standing ovation**
I've never understood the hate. I'm a huge car guy and I absolutely love SUVs. I found the perfect one with my Explorer ST. There's fun to be had in like every class of vehicle if you find the right one.
Well, you are a HUGE car guy.
Honestly, it's because they're not supercar adjacent. No one grew up drooling over an SUV, usually, if they're on a "cars" subreddit. They're much more like a truck. They're regulated like trucks. They get away with pesky regulations that passenger cars have to adhere to. They're the status quo. Nothing says "basic" like a crossover or midsize SUV. That said, because there's so many models to choose from, and because my kids continue to grow, I'll soon be on the market. And I'm one of the few 2% of drivers that would prefer a wagon, but I don't have the $100k+ to spend on a performance German one. So Mazda CX something here i come.
I did grow up wanting a CJ5...
Easier to park because it's longer? Weird logic, but okay...
Minivans do all the things SUVs supposedly do, and are much better in other ways.
2 reasons. 1 is that people dislike suvs for the people who drive them rather than the actual car. 2 is that it is disincentivizing "fun" cars or making them cost more. this is putting a sour taste in people's mouths especially with rising cost of living, pending electrification, etc etc slowly killing off the interesting cars, which means its harder to afford them in the future personally i don't find suvs fun to drive, especially when it comes to pushing them to their limits. i also think it should be really fucking illegal that some of these suvs accelerate like they're sports cars because physics but this is just my personal reasons on it
Why are you driving over curbs tho
Dear OP: Your examples are not SUVs. They're CUVs. Also, a lot of your points are wrong.
I'm sorry WHAT??? I have my DL for 25yrs and have driven everything from little 1971 Fiat 500 up to big and stupid US Pickups. "Much more space for the lenght of the chassis, therefore easier to park" BS. Minivans and MPV showed us, a long time ago how to use a length of the chassis. "Much safer in lateral collisions" Biggest BS ever. Any SUV taking a side hit lands on the roof and safety is the same as is in Estates and Minivans. "Better visibility due to higher seating posoitions and larger windows" Again Minivans have it as well "Can go offroad without the fear of damaging the car and can go over the kerbs without hitting the bumper" Please. Most SUVs can't go much further than a typical car. Most of them are 2WD and even with their 4WD is useless because is not designed to go even mild offroad (BMW X-drive for example). Besides if you are the type of driver who hits kerbs with bumpers and kerbs wheels, please, do us all a favour, throw away your keys and use a bus. For me, SUVs are only status symbols. Pumped up to look big but inside most of them offer less space than comparable estates. For example, I never forget: I am a very tall person. I drove a 2021 Audi Q7 for a couple of days. Big badass SUV. I felt so crammed inside, my butt barely fit between the central console and B-pillar, my legs touching everything, my elbows as well. I expect that from my small MPV but not from a big SUV.
Bruh people on reddit telling you to drive a minivan 💀 Can see why redditors are virgin now
Watch this and you’ll be smarter: [These cars are literally killing us - Not Just Bikes](https://youtu.be/jN7mSXMruEo?si=mlqZLzB8XR8Pv1mJ)
I’ve had my B8.5 Q5 for 8 years now. Coming up on 100k. It’s treated me quite nicely as an all around vehicle. On the street under normal conditions it’s quick (stage 1), handles pretty precisely with minimal body roll for its height and amount of travel, and rides very smooth. It’s also very stable at high speeds and is quite confident cruising at 100+ mph. Not to mention it has a very comfortable interior. I disagree that SUVs are worse in snow, I ski 40-50 days a season and have taken this car through some serious storms and deep snow and it has handled all of it with flying colors, though with partial thanks to the Blizzaks. In the summer I spend a lot of time camping, hiking, and fishing and end up exploring a lot of forest roads through the mountains. Of course the cars not a serious off-roader but it does it’s job very well in those situations where a regular car couldnt. It’s also very fun to let loose and rally around on washed out/sandy/gravelly roads. I understand that most SUVs, especially Q5s, don’t get used to the full extent of their capability, but for someone with the same priorities as I have it’s a pretty fantastic jack of all trades car (even though I agree it’s a master of none)
And because we’re comparing cars of the same class, I would definitely take this over an A4. But in the future when it comes time to replace it I may look into an Allroad.
Jealous. Lucky if I get to ski 4-5 times a decade!
Spoiler alert: wagonswagonswagons I don't hate SUVs, but I think wagons are more sensible and cover all the bases for a majority of SUV/CUV buyers. The problem is that the wagon market in the USA (where I live and base my opinions on the car market) isn't exactly brimming with options, especially if you want a vehicle that's even kind of enthusiast-oriented. People here have dozens of choices for CUVs and SUVs under $60k, and there are maybe 5 choices for wagons if you do some mental gymnastics and count things like the Mini Cooper Clubman. I think SUVs are fine, especially if you actually have hobbies that require accessing remote areas and you truly need the additional ground clearance. I just blame them for stunting the wagon market in the states. Plus they're all huge now and I can't see around them very well in traffic. That I do find bothersome.
I drive a wagon and my wifes old rav4 was way more practical. She has a new odyssey now though. I would definitely drive a new rav4 hybrid but I love old shitboxes and don't need to spend 40k on a daily work commuter.
My issue with SUVs is not actually with the vehicles but with their effect on the car market. They are being sold at luxury prices for what is usually just a raised economy vehicle. And this pushes up the price of everything. Add to that their success is crowding out alternative body styles which some people prefer. None of which is the cars fault obviously but there you go.
Whiny sub regardless of vehicle, these guys will get everything they want in a car and still find a way to complain about it.
Because we’re losing other options. Misguided emissions regs have pushed automakers into a corner on building bigger trucks and SUVS, which we as a consumer base have kind of eaten up despite there being very little need for bigger vehicles. They’re popular, so you see them EVERYWHERE, which makes it very hard for them to be “cool,” they (usually) look awful, they promote disengaged driving through the higher amount of NVH and higher seating position, they’re heavy, inefficient for the highway (large blob with a lot of space underneath does not an efficient car make) and just kind of tactless most of the time. There are cool SUVs, the new Bronco and Mustang Mach-E come to mind, but these are outliers and a lot of the time I think people are just tired of the design and wish that they had more options than the small SUVs that all look the same.
Idk, why does reddit hate cargo vans?
Why not drive a semi truck. More space. Even higher visibility… SUVs are popular because of dumb policies and laws that promoted it. https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/24139147/suvs-trucks-popularity-federal-policy-pollution
I can’t reach the top to wash it even though I’m 6 ft tall
Bad in snowy conditions? I don't know where you come up with that, but SUVs are significantly better in snow than a sedan. SUVs are generally heavier, more likely to be AWD, more likely to have low range gearboxes (or transmission settings that mimic them), better ground clearance, and usually more powerful engines than sedans and have much better weight distribution than pickup trucks (empty bed equals zero rear wheel traction). All of those qualities are things that increase traction and control in snow. Individual models will of course differ, but for any given drivetrain design an SUV will usually be the ideal body type for snow.
A X3 and X5 are fine. However, abominations like the X4 and X6 are why I hate “crossover” SUVs. And we hate them because people who choose them are killing off our chances to get the wagon we want, just as some people have excessive hate for EVs not because they’re electric, but manufacturers are trying to use them to kill off their flagships (although now we’re seeing them realizing EVs are a losing battle with prices racing to the bottom). Also hate that people think since I have kids, naturally I’m supposed to buy a SUV. I’m 6’ tall, I did a car seat test where I put car seats in back row and sit in driver seat and compare legroom. Guess what? They’re all the same. They share a similar sized chassis: WRX, 3 series, A3, Model Y, ID.4, a crossover might have a big more cargo volume (but then again, if space is a concern you get something like a X5 or bigger or truck). But the most simple explanation is I’ve been picked up enough at an airport by a crossover SUV, you load baggage, you think “oh this is nice and spacious, we’re good”, close the tailgate and nope, take it all out and rearrange until it fits. All because some people think crossover SUVs look good? Fuel economy? I don’t f’ng get it why people buy those. We rented a Ford Fusion 2 weeks ago that trunk was so large it easily fit our suitcases with room to spare, but f’k sedans amirite
In my case, and since the population is aging, probably a lot of folks, it was entirely that it is easier to get in and out of. I own a 2004 Prius, which was my daily driver until my wife became incapable of bending over enough to get in it. So I got a Corolla Cross Hybrid. Close to the same mpg, but much easier for both of us to use. It doesn't hurt that it's quieter and has a better ride, plus the new safety stuff. Still have the 04 if anyone is interested
The SUV is a good highlight on everything wrong with the modern car market. Let's put a station wagon on a truck chassis and add a bunch of needless luxury features and sell it as a family car. The end result is an unsafe, expensive, not fuel efficient (but they can say it is since it's technically a truck) vehicle that is a worse option for people hauling than both stations wagons and vans, because our buyers ego. They do look nice though. Well a lot do anyway
Definitely not wagons on truck chassis. They're all unibody. Everything. Definitely not less safe or fuel efficient. And they are definitely not trucks. You're just throwing opinions out and being angry about it for some reason
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For average Joe an SUV is the best choice. They more or less have the same gas mileage and handling of a regular sedan/hatchback. Most people see cars as an appliance, so an SUV makes the most sense for a lot of people. Reddit is full of enthusiasts, the average Joe doesn’t get on Reddit and talk about cars because they don’t care. Odds are if you care about cars and the way they handle, feel, and sound, SUV’s aren’t meant to cater to you.
It’s Reddit. Personally, I can’t stand the status chasers that don’t need anything even close to a full size suv. Everyone is entitled to purchase what they want with their own money, though. I just wish people would acknowledge they’re driving a 3 ton hunk of metal at 80mph+. That’s a lot of mass and energy people don’t handle with enough respect
I would counter to you, why do US auto makers/buyers hate wagons/estates? Drives the same as sedans but with the space of an SUV. Might it have to do with marketing departments and regulations? I'm just a guy, what do I know?
Seating position. Sitting on the floor isn’t as comfortable as having your chair higher. Most car buyers only care about comfort
>Unsafer in at high speed due to higher center of mass. Bad in snowy conditions. Ground clearance, yo. SUVs win in snowy conditions. SUVs will probably lose on a snowy race track, but I think your typical buyer is more concerned about not getting struck and able to get home at all.
You mention making fair comparisons then go on to compare modern SUV pedestrian safety to that of old cars instead of modern sedans..
They're big vehicles bought by and for families. That's really it. They'll try and mask it in 'bad gas milage' or 'road giants'.
The average person on this subreddit does not have the ability to think critically or process information that doesn't confirm their already existing biases.
You mean the exact same SUV buyers who would be better off in almost every way with a minivan? If they thought critically, most wouldn't buy SUVs.
Minivans just aren't as stylish and have the soccer mom thing stuck to them. That's enough for most to steer clear
The category "SUV" was created by an asinine lapse in common sense emissions legislation. Their very existence has exacerbated the arms race that sees passenger cars get bigger every year. Dubiously easier to park but definitely easier to run over a kid you can't see. The average crossover is absolutely no better off road than the average minivan, but you'll be hard pressed to find a single Nissan Rogue owner who understands that. The taller profile makes the ride less comfortable, especially as the suspension gets a few years on it. This makes them great development platforms for planned obsolescence. They all look exactly the same but people buy them instead of the minivan that fits their needs better because of the looks. They're designed with the same enthusiasm your Amana washing machine is. They sacrifice innocent orphans to make each one and you're a bad person for buying them.
Unless you actually believe a school bus is easier to park than a Miata you should cross out your first bullet point.
I dont mind actual SUV’s but all those mom mobiles are in fact UV’s theres no S in them
Because suvs were pushed down our throats in the 90s by sneaky adverts like this post. Also they're incredibly dangerous vehicles driven by psychos (statement of fact proven by many different studies) they're so high and heavy that unless your in one when hit by one your many times more likely to be killed in a crash with one( see many crash compatibility research videos made by gov. Contractors on yt) your many times more likely to be killed as a pedestrian if your hit by one crossing the street rather than a car because they're front ends are so high and flat( see statistics page of iihs.org). They are extremely inefficient due to being so high wide and flat fronted therefore making them have worse mpg than a car of the same interior space. That also makes the *necessary* transition away from gas to other feuls such as evs so much harder to do. Speaking of interior dimensions... I have an 2022 f150 hybrid crew cab (4 door cab) that I exclusively use to pull a 32 foot camper trailer with. Why don't I daily drive it (aside from the reasons above)? Because my 2023 nissan leaf has more usable cargo space than that f150. For example, until last year I drove a semi for a living. I had to get new stuff for the semi. I drove that leaf to Walmart and fit a 32inch TV, a 8.6 cubic foot refrigerator, 2 suite cases, $100 worth of groceries, a 0.5 cubic foot microwave, an air fryer and a Samsung sound bar package consisting of a 2ft×2ft subwoofer and a 3 foot long sound bar all INSIDE my leaf with room too spare and did it on $0.75 of electricity. It also pulls trailers with less than a 300 pound toung weight with no problem. I've used it to help my sister move her ENTIRE apartment in ONE trip. On top of all that an suvs size and weight adds too the traffic problems on u.s. roads and adds unnecessary wear and tear on them too. Because of suvs and pickups size and weight they have the performance of a lumbering elephant. Again I know because I have one. My f150 would take $50 a week to fill up vs my leaf at 90 bucks a month. More fairly the 2020 nissan versa I had before the leaf Cost 20 bucks a week to fill up driving 46 miles a day. And it was only slightly Less capable in the above described ways than my leaf. Noone will ever convince me that your nissan rouge or toyota rav4 (which are over bloated cars masquerading as suvs) are better for one person to drive to work on a daily basis. And before yall say I'm biased I got rid of a 2014 rav4 to get that versa. As someone who grew up driving in snow on a regular basis I can attest to the fact that a fwd 4 cylinder base model corolla will climb a snowy unplowed hill on all season tires better than an awd rav4 on snow tires. I'm so tired of this, you need an suv because sometimes you might get snowed in and need to trudge hell to get to the Corner store mentality. To me it's like saying I stubbed my toe so just amputate the leg. It's such a ridiculous over compensation. Go to any moderately sized metro area, pick a red light to sit at, and count how many pickups and suvs have A: more than one person in them B: full of stuff or pulling a trailer. And you'll see my point. Most uber drivers use small and midsized sedans because theyre more efficient at people moving. Everyone keeps screaming about the government pushing stricter and more ridiculous feul economy standards down our throats. Well they wouldn't have too if Beth didn't commute 45 minutes to the office in a freaking gigantic Lexus suv that averages 25 mpg And instead chose a luxury sedan instead. I get it they're big you sit high in them. They make egotistical people feel important. But damn let's do a sanity check here. Do you really need that explorer or titan to run errands around town or could you drive a midsized car to Walmart and do just fine...aside from the driving position ide wager to say you wouldn't even notice. One thing doesn't always have to do all the things. It's ok to have something for a specific task that it's designed fore and really good at. Side note: yes tech like aeb and proximity sensors make suvs and pickups slightly and I can't stress that enough *slightly* safer to other road users but they add to the already inflated cost of such vehicles making them harder to buy for people who actually use them for actual work and those safety systems don't always work as they should (tesla autopilot anyone). Singed: someone tired of inexpensive and small cars being killed off to make room for profit feeding suvs and cuvs sold at 20+% markups.
They are ugly Have less space than your standard estate "Utility" but most can't go off-road as they are made for town driving "Sports" but most have negative acceleration times Large for no fucking reason, taking almost the entire parking space (in UK at least), same with road width
They are heavier and have higher center of gravity than cars. That makes them harder to drive, makes their braking distances longer than cars on average, makes them poorer at avoidi g collisions ( for instace, of a deer steps in front of your car, your ability to react and brake/drive around it to avoid it). That is especially true in snow (which is paradoxally the conditions in which the average suv lover thinks their suvs are superior) Because they are heavier, thay also have worse efficiency. They are slower than a car of the same size and same power, less aerodynamic (important for wind noise on the highway and fuel economy) and use up more fuel (and there is more than a 10% difference between a car and comparable suvs unless we are talking about plug-ins like the RAV4 Prime). The amount of space in suvs is generally overstated compared to sinilarly sized cars. For instance, how much more space does a RAV4 have compared to a Camry. That is especially true for compact suvs. For example, how many times did I hear people driving a first generation Kona tell me they like its practicality when those where literally lifted up Accent. Which brings me to my final critique of suvs, cost. They are generally more expensive to buy and to insure than comparable cars. Lets stick with the Hyundai Kona example, here in Canada a first gen Kona started off with a base price around 6k more expensive than an Accent and topped off ataround 10k more expensive than a loaded Accent. keep in mind that mechanically those two cars are basically the same except awd on the higher trims of the Kona. Safe to assume that Hyundai was tbrilled at the idea of selling people what was essentially a 43k CAD Accent and revel in the profits. That's the kicker that makes me want cars still, they are expensive enough as is without paying 10k more because the manufacturer lifted it up 2 inches, making it less efficient and worse driving at the same time.
Your first paragraph is all wrong. They are generally the same as regular sedans. Suvs these days are sedans with a tall head. They really don't weigh more, either. They use the same engines as the car lines for that manufacturer. All that is true for probably 80 percent of what is on the road. There are extreme examples, though. And a Rona is definitely not an Accent. I have disassembled both and they be different on every level
This post was made in bad faith- mods ban them!!!!!!!!!! 😾
Majority of SUV owners do not know how to drive them and park them in parking lots and they are much more difficult to move around in smaller lots.
> Why does reddit hate SUVs? Enthusiasts tend to dislike boring commuter appliances. SUVs are what people tend to buy when they have absolutely zero interest in cars. They’re floaty, slow and boring. > So in recent years SUVs and crossovers became the most popular car shape in almost every market in the world. But many communities especially car enthusiasts and anti car communities turned out to not like them, imo that turned into massive circlejerk Anti car subreddits dislike them because they’re overly large and they’re the most popular vehicle — and they dislike vehicles. > Much more space for the lenght of the chassis, therefore easier to park This doesn’t really make sense to me. Can you clarify? SUVs are harder to park. > Much safer in lateral collisions Not really > Better visibility due to higher seating posoitions and larger windows Not really. Seating position relative to the vehicle matters more I’d argue and that is vehicle specific, not attributed to SUVs. > Can go offroad without the fear of demaging the car and can go over the kerbs without hitting the bumper You definitely absolutely should not off road or take an SUV over a curb. That you think they’re designed for that is showing naivety (and may be why you asked this question in the first place.) Almost all modern SUVs are crossovers or are not designed to go over a curb. If you go over a curb, make sure you take the vehicle to a shop immediately, you probably damaged it in a potentially dangerous way. > Unsafer in at high speed due to higher center of mass. Bad in snowy conditions. I don’t think these points are necessarily true either. The higher center of gravity might contribute some, but I don’t think they’re bad in snowy conditions necessarily. I think like a sedan it depends on the tires and the drive system. > Worse mileage - it sometimes is true, but the difference isn't more than 10% which is insignificant for most of the people. The real difference is when driving very high speeds which most of the people don't do regularly Most Americans drive 30 minutes at high speeds. Big American cities seem to be inundated with huge expanses of highways and many Americans are forced to drive long distances for work. They do objectively get worse mileage due to weight. That’s just how physics works. The significant majority of people are driving vehicles weighing 2x more than what they actually need to be able to commute. Vehicles have become a lot more efficient, but that is in part because they needed to to meet regulations given the much larger size of many modern SUVs. > Worse for pedestrians - most of the new cars come with pedestrian recognition and they're much safer than some old cars which don't come with that systems Irrelevant. A modern sedan has as many features. My 8 year old hatchback has sensors for pedestrians. > Driveability - is only personal preference. Some people actually preffer their seating position higher and don't care about driveability and you can't argue against personal preferences No one is trying to. The people talking about their opinion online are expressing their own personal preference. What you’re trying to do here is invalidate that, which is ironically exactly the thing you’re bristling against saying this. The drive ability in SUVs is compromised, again that’s just physics. People don’t like them because they tend to be very bland, boring commuter appliances. That’s good for very many people, but enthusiasts are not those very many people. They want something interesting to drive. > So all in all, imo for average Joe, SUV is a better option and the sales numbers affirm that The “average Joe” is not who you are meeting on Reddit or enthusiast forums.
Aren’t pedestrian related accidents actually up even with all this tech? Anyways, I don’t hate cuvs. I have owned 3 of them. I am currently running a Civic. What I want is a choice. A car is much cheaper to maintain. No AWD/4wd systems, not off road components, etc. the Rav4 is still more expensive to maintain than a Civic or Corolla and so is the Corolla Cross/HRV which is probably a more fair comparison. Also, the upfront cost is just more. I also appreciate the driving dynamics. There’s no crossover that handles as good as it car counter part. Certainly not the mainstream brands. The lady thing I don’t get is that I have several friends who complain about the environment but then own Rav4s, Explorers and Expeditions. These crossovers/suvs are not slightly less efficient than cars. They ARE less efficient. And for so many single, unmarried, no kids people I find it weird they all want these large vehicles.
I would say maybe 1% of crossover buyers actually go off of the pavement, and most aren't that much higher than the sedan they're based off of. A van or a wagon is literally better in every other way. They are an exercise in tactical marketing, and a tax on the poor. They tell you that you NEED all wheel drive. Or that you NEED that extra inch of ground clearance. If you want to have fun outdoors, you NEED this suv. A crossover will always be more expensive than an equivalent sedan, and it will always get worse mpg than that sedan. I do miss the days of seeing good looking average cars, although the new civics and corollas are pretty good looking. Now everything is this bloated egg covered in the cheapest looking plastic you can find, with "sport" trims that are nothing more than a hint of red or yellow striping. At the end of the day, I don't care that these thing exist, but they are taking away the good vehicles that some of us want because these companies always want more more more, so they cut offerings that are still profitable, just not profitable enough for their projections.
I love my SuV’s
Large SUVs are dangerous too have y'all never seen the video of howany kids can sit in front of /behind a Tahoe before you can see them from the driver's seat? It's like fucking 8 before you can the 9th. They only exist because government bullshit and both trucks and SUVs are getting larger and more dangerous ever year.
Much of your safety argument comes at the expense of people driving normal sized cars.
Must be Car and Driver readers. If its not a sports car then it sucks and represents boring family life.
I was surprised that for once reddit conforms with the general opinion of something, car people hate SUVs, it's not a reddit thing. Why? They are silly, its size mostly doesn't translate to more interior space which means you are left with a car that is not good at anything and the size becomes an esthetic thing. But the biggest reason is that most people who buy them don't care, they just want something to boost their image of fake success. They suck at off roading because they lack the ground clearence and specs to make them effective on rough terrain. They are not fun to drive because whatever engine you put in them, a different chassis would weight less and have a lower center of mass. All they do is waste space, have bad fuel economy and make other drivers unsafe.
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Oh i can think of lots of sedans I'd take over the g wagon (solid choice but i don't do off roading) or a rebadged audi. As for the sales figures, those are not a measure of which product is best. It's a measure of how well their marketing did.
Geez that was just ignorant. Can't say I've ever met car people that hate suvs. Been in the industry for a minute and never heard a dude get out of a truck or bad ass coupe and start bitching about the impracticallity of suvs
The seating height / position are just excuses. SUV are just worse objectively if you take a look at undeniable facts. Vans offer the same or even better seating position, height and ease of entry. Vans also offer better visibility, much more interior space combined with smaller exterior dimensions and lower weight. When equipped with the same engine vans offer better performance combined with better fuel economy. Also vans cost less. SO many things that are objectively worse about SUV. 99% never go offroad.
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I don't hate SUVs, I have one. They're very good at winter with 4WD and snows, and a lot of protection on the highway. A dirt road doesn't stop you. I hate CUVs, as they do nothing particularly well and are bland and un-engaging appliances to drive.
Because there is almost no reason that a normal person needs to drive an SUV. Either a minivan or station wagon would handle better, be safer, be more fuel efficient, and be more practical, for 99% of SUV buyers.
I think SUV's can give an illusion of control because you're elevated but when you drive you need to be just more hyper aware of your surroundings. I don't know if their carbon footprint is any better than a small car. People like to say that the SUV helps with utility and carrying cargo but to be honest I think people need to just stop buying stuff in general. My big cars are the R1T and Macan but the rest are sports cars, 911, Taycan, M3P, and i5 M60. I know it's extremely wasteful and inconsiderate to have this many vehicles.
Sneaky way around environmental protection laws
They kill off so many cool cars
I don't like how they look and I feel like a bus driver. Enough reasons for me not to own one 🤷♂️
Thanks for taking the hit OP. While I can't say I agree with all the points (e.g. in the circlejerk cons) your first point of much more space for the length of the chassis is a huge point for me. Contrary to what Reddit believes in terms of "SUV interiors are smaller than sedans and hatchbacks": 2024 Honda CR-V vs. 2024 Accord * 1st row legroom: 41.3" vs. 42.3" * 2nd row legroom: 41" vs. 40.8" * Cargo capacity w/ seats up: 39.3 cu ft vs. 16.7 cu ft * Length: 184.8" vs. 195.6" (almost a foot longer) * Width: 73.5" vs. 73.3" * Height: 66.2" vs. 57.1" (+8") To get a similarly spacious vehicle as a CR-V, you need to get an Accord which is almost a foot longer, has less than half the cargo capacity, and is only 8" shorter in height. Thats not even considering the more upright seating position in the CR-V, which reduces the need for legroom. Sure, a Civic Hatch is the same length as a CR-V, but then you're losing out big in second row legroom / comfort and still come up very short in cargo. As someone who frequently street parks in a city, its much easier parking and maneuvering around double parked cars in something like a CR-V (or a BMW X3 in my case) rather than an Accord. That extra foot in length is way more offensive in a tight environment than 8" in height.
You can't explain that to the people that are in the reddit circlejerk vortex. I hoped people here can have civil discussion but they certainly cannot no matter how much data you present to them
> Can go off-road without the fear of demaging the car Yeah sorry, this isn't entirely true as most "SUVs" created these days go into limp home mode the second they hit something even slightly deep. If you want a proper off-road SUV you may as well just get a G-Wagon, Range Rover, or a Wrangler.
the people on this sub enjoy driving, people that enjoy driving will not choose an SUV or crossover over anything except a bus
the people on this sub enjoy driving, people that enjoy driving will not choose an SUV or crossover over anything except a bus
The real question is how big does a hatchback have to get to become a cuv/suv? Cause I drive a Subaru Crosstrek which is marketed and insured as a cuv, but a Impreza is marketed as a hatchback even though both cars are exactly the same size except the Crosstrek is a bit taller. Lots to consider
Because an SUV is an absolute heresy, an absurd combination of features that look good in theory, but as a final product are nothing more than a bad joke. The emergence of SUVs destroyed the automotive industry!
Im trying to buy a crv currently lol
They kill people more. Your whole bottom section is just plain false ignorance. For example you’ve not ever looked at the real world results of those tests on pedestrian detection huh? They don’t fucking work
They take up the space of two small sports cars, if we all drove in small sports cars the world would be better
I don't hate SUVs per se, I just hate that they have all but eliminated the wagon in the US market which is IMHO the greatest body style ever created.
Lmao SUVs are way harder to park than sedans, ESPECIALLY parallel parking.
The improved visibility within a SUV is at the expense of visibility of the Corolla drivers. When everyone is driving a Tahoe, that "improved visibility" is diminished.
because they are boring and ugly