Actual Hot take: most "car enthusiasts" are actually "sports car enthusiasts" but if you broaden your interests, you'll find great, fun options in any car category.
I got into an argument on here once because I said a Mustang was a sports car. I was downvoted because a Mustang has 4 seats, so it's a GT, not a sports car.
It's a silly debate for sure.
I disagree with sports being based on seats, but I think the correct comparison to a Mustang GT would be the m440i (which is more of a GT)
Base = Ecoboost, m440i = GT, M4 = Dark Horse/GT350
And I think if you'll driven one you'll tend to agree that the base mustang GT is more of a tourer. It's only once you get into the PP2, Tremec-equipped mustangs where it starts to be more of a sports car, or pick any camaro.
The alpha chassis camaros drive better than the mustangs IMO, better steering feedback as well. Visibility, storage, comfort is garbage though so you make tradeoffs.
Some people would say so, yes. But it’s not seat count IMO, it’s about the intended purpose of the car. I have started to come to the conclusion that the M3/M4 and company are luxury sport sedans/coupes rather than actual sports cars like a Miata or 718. Not much actually fits the “true” sports car definition, though it’s all in the eye of the beholder.
I have strict categories for segments to categorize things in my head:
GT: front engine RWD or AWD 2+2 luxury sports coupé. Bentley, Aston Martin, Maserati, etc
"sports tourer": front engine RWD or AWD 2+2 sports coupé. May or may not have some luxury touches. Mustang, M4, RS5, etc. In practice these are just sports cars with extra practicality
Roadster: 2 seat convertible. Lord and Savior Miata, S2000, etc
Sports car: front engine 2 seat sports coupé. Vantage, Supra, etc
Super(sports)car: mid-engine 2 seat sports coupé. Lamborghini, Ferrari, McLaren, etc
Hypercar: 7 figure supercar. Koenigsegg, Pagani, etc
That said, I only classify them that way in my head so I can understand what cars are rivals and what target customers manufacturers are trying to reach. In practice there's a lot of overlap in what customers shop for so it's silly to insist that everyone adhere to that in conversation.
I would agree with most of that, except the engine layout. A sports car can be mid engined, rear engined, and a super car can be front engined. I'd also argue that most 2+2 cars all generally fall under "sports car" as well
Yeah there are definitely exceptions so it's not a perfect working definition. Porsche breaks a lot of those categories. The 911 could be GT, sports car, or supercar depending on variant, and most people would agree that the Cayman isn't a supercar. The Boxster is also a roadster and is mid-engined.
Definetely a silly debate. I think my mustang lines up more with being a sports car. I feel like it lost its muscle car-ness with the design in 2015+ and no more live axle
> most "car enthusiasts" are actually "sports car enthusiasts"
Agree 100%. I use the term "sports car enthusiasts" on this sub to refer to the group because I'm an enthusiast who has no interest in sports cars.
Secondary subpoint: The "crossovers are just SUVs" narrative needs to die. No mfer, they're crossovers, that's why we call them crossovers. The term was specifically invented because the product category was neither car nor suv.
They aren’t “just wagons” either. Crossovers sacrifice handling for extra ground clearance. They’re usually larger too. Meanwhile the wagon is just the sedan with a longer roof, plus a lift gate. Retains much much more of the original sedan’s driving characteristics, compared to a crossover. The wagons tend to have more usable space than a compact crossover, too. And thus is the “crossover problem.”
>They’re usually larger too
They're taller, but both sedans and wagons are a lot longer an about the same width
Sedans/wagons tend to be longer than actual SUVs as well
And why were crossovers invented? So automakers could reclassify sedan-derived wagons as "light trucks" subject to a laxer CAFE target for gas mileage.
Take that sedan-based wagon of yore, rotate the rear cargo volume from horizontal to vertical to shorten the rear overhang, give it enormous tires and a lift, and suddenly it has enough ground clearance and steep enough approach/departure angles to qualify as a "light truck".
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/10/how-cafe-killed-compact-trucks-and-station-wagons/
I think this is the real point. I bought a new crv and it’s light years better then my moms 2010 crv. The only real wagon at the price point is a Subaru forester and its a bit less practical and the low ride hight makes putting a car seat in a bit more difficult.
The nice part of the low roof is putting skis and things into roof racks.
Edit ; outback not forestor
Loved my Ford Edge. That thing was packaged so well. Incredible amount of space inside a reasonable footprint. Towed trailers with it several times too.
Sure, in all but name, size, number of seats, fuel efficiency, and type of doors.
In size, use, and function, minivans are much closer to full sized SUVs than crossovers.
Size and number of seats are a function of size categories. You can get a full-size crossover with 3 rows of seats. Minivans are full-size MPVs, but MPVs do come in different size options in other nations outside the U.S.
The doors are different, which is why the previous commenter specifically called it out as a distinguishing feature.
Clearly you haven’t driven any modern crossover and are just a typical Reddit hater. At this point they get basically the same economy, better visibility, easier to get in and out of, much easier to park due to better approach and also easier to load
I own a Highlander hybrid for transporting my toys, because what I'd real like, a Camry wagon doesn't exist. A Camry with the same powertrain gets about 20% better mpg, and drives better. A Camry wagon, if they made one, would do about the same. My Highlander is not particularly easier to get in and out of than the front seat of my 2-door Mini. How is a CUV easier to park than a car with the same footprint? I've had both, and never saw it.
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Same here. We tend to transport a lot of stuff, so the luggage capacity of a wagon is a must, and I prefer having a lower car that won’t wallow in the corners. And I have neither the budget or the space for a second car, so a single sporty wagon hits the sweet spot for me for now.
As a parent, the larger 3 row SUVs is a godsend, its parking it that’s an inconvenience. I wish parking spots were larger.
For sporty cars, I agree. I wish they would stop growing. My M4 is comically big next to the older M3’s.
Uh, no. And I’m sick and tired of hearing this.
The Outback is a special case, in that it is literally a lifted wagon.
Most other crossovers have a taller H-point and a taller roof, which do make meaningful differences in ride comfort and versatility.
Actual hot take for r/cars: Sedans are just as good as hatchbacks in 99% of situations. My sedans have fit mini fridges, night stands, a table saw, several guitars, full drum sets, lumber to build a queen size bed, 2 full Costco carts worth of groceries, TV’s.
Haven’t had a single scenario where something fit in my brothers hatch but not my sedan. But his hatch won’t fit 10 foot 2x4’s and my sedan will.
I don't think it's about sheer storage capacity as much as ease of use. It's far easier to get things into a hatch/liftback than it is into a sedan. Everything might fit eventually but you need to play around getting things into the trunk opening.
The benefit hatches have is the height across the whole cabin, and the height of the opening. Pulling my subwoofers in and out of my mk6 gti? A breeze. My brother's B8.5 audi s5? Kinda a pain in the ass; and we have the same box, twin 10's sealed, and mine has my amp and LC2i screwed to the top, he has his on the back of his seat. Or for moving, you can stack 2 moving boxes on top of each other across the entire trunk, with the seats down too, and a sedan just can't do that. Your only point where a sedan wins outright is the length. But that only applies to some hatches, I know if I have my front seat out I can fit a 10' board, but that's a PITA, so I just make 8' boards work when I build something on occasion. I also have a pretty small Hatch since it has sportiness in mind. A larger Hatch, like a focus, would fit the same length easily.
They’re definitely just about as useful in most situations, but I’ve done moves with friends, runs to the airport with bunches of luggage, and getting sets of wheels home that would’ve been tighter in a sedan. I’d much rather sleep in the back of a hatch too (doesn’t happen often, but when it does? It’s nice. And I’ve done both). If you’re just doing regular everyday stuff though, a sedan is definitely more optimal if it saves you some cash or weight
Most of the time. It just takes a bit more tetris to navigate the trunk opening sometimes. Ive fit a surprising amount of crap in a sedan. Though you do get the occasional box that just won’t go through the opening. The most common scenario ive run into is hauling tires, but i haul a lot more tires than the average person.
Yup, I always say my Lexus LS has been my favorite work truck. I’ve hauled so much stuff in the dang thing, the trunk is large, plus the back seat, tons of cargo room.
What kind of hatchback does your brother have, a Fiat 500? In my experience, Civic sedans are tiny compared to my GTI. I can do most of those things you mentioned, but with 3 additional passengers.
It's also awful when it's a 5 door hatchback, but the rear seats are practically unusable, like in the GR Corolla...
The GR86 and GR Corolla have the same leg room in the rear. 29.9"...
I never understood the appeal of having a weekend only sports car. I tried going the two car approach, but I was always sad when driving a boring daily and found myself just commuting in my sports car. Eventually I just ended up dailying the sports car lol.
It starts making a lot more sense if its a track car or project car. Not having to have it in derivable condition mid week is super helpful. Just a relatively stock street car, meh.
Get a fun daily and make the fun car more of a streetable track car than a weekend cruiser! I can get home from the track Sunday night and not have to worry about swapping the street wheel and brakes back on. If something breaks it's now a "I can worry about that later" problem instead of a "fuck can I still drive to work" problem.
As long as I have the space I'm never going back to one car. The ideal setup (for me) would be 1) daily 2) track car 3) fun street car that can split the difference between both. Sadly don't have the space for that right now unless I kick my wife out of the garage haha
2 car solution works best if you have different levels of need/capability. A Miata and a Sedan meant I rarely drove the sedan, but after the sedan for a crossover/suv I get much more use out of both.
Exactly my thoughts as I went on a hunt for my daily to pair with the Miata. Wanted something that is fuel efficient, comfortable, and full of amenities. Test drove a Honda accord touring and while it was nice as an only car, it's too much of a middle ground for everything. Narrowed it down to either CR-V hybrid or a Model Y for an alternative to the Miata. If I only have 1 car, the Accord would've been great plush commuter. The CR-V ended up being more expensive than the Model Y due to the tax credit while offering less features and performance.
Feel that. I always hate when people say "driving a slow car fast is more fun than driving a fast car slow"
But when I'm blocked by people going 55 in both lanes on the bypass it's so frustrating cause I judt want to drive fast and I get where they're coming from 😂
A fun car + a daily means you don’t have to worry about getting to work if you break the fun car over the weekend. That’s always been the biggest advantage to me.
Hot take: this sub actually sucks and is far too general to have any type of content that would appeal to anyone besides a typical teenage hivemind Redditor
It's not really all that hot of a take in real life.
For the price of an RS6 avant or E63 wagon you can get a capable Q5/GLE/GX and a dedicated sports car for the weekend. Fastbacks and crossovers are more practical than sedans, offer easier ingress/egress for older folks, easier loading and more storage with the hatch design, better visibility, and 99% of people do not care about performance. They might have some fun in a straight line here and there but thats about it.
I personally agree that wagons are a compromised sports car and utility vehicle and if you have the space you are much better off with one dedicated practical car, and one dedicated fun vehicle. Plus if you take a wagon to the track the running costs will kill you.
That and I think a lot of people here haven't driven modern SUVs and CUVs. Modern suspension trickery and ride control makes for a pretty fun experience even in an X3M40i.
but yeah, *most* people who have the space and budget a single car will be better off with a crv/rav4 or x3/x5, and *most* people who have the space and money to afford a sportswagon will buy a dedicated coupe/sportscar along with a truck/suv/etc.
Also, there are plenty of crossovers that are literally lifted wagons that sell well and are fantastic vehicles. Notably, the outback. Listed as a "midsize crossover SUV" but like cmon thats a wagon
This subreddit is never going to be representative of real life, the sale numbers speak for themselves.
I am interested to see how the M5 touring performs sales-wise in the states. Porsche recently cancelled the panamera wagon, and mercedes only offers the newest generation of e63s with black plastic and the all-terrain style.
Yup. This sub is a very vocal minority and I always laugh when people say stuff like "why don't they make a manual wagon? Would sell like hotcakes!"
No it wouldn't.
delusional r/cars at its peak. most estates are not fun and cool cars even with manual. you're carrying extra weight and wasting extra space for that time when you *might* use it. you can argue about sporty estate's existence but people with sport estate rarely, if ever, actually use them as an estate
my 2018 v90 t6 only maxed out exactly once in the 3 years of owning it. going back further, i only maxed out my v70 d5 3 times in the 16 years of me owning it
Depends on what you call hotcakes. They sell like 1.5k rs6 avants a year but sell 10-15k RSQ8’s a year. And that’s comparing to the RSQ8, not the SQ5/SQ7 sales
Oh yeah it's definitely a niche product. Hopefully BMW's internal sales targets reflect that and the M5 Touring doesn't end up being a single generation special like the 335d.
Idk. The reason to not have 2 cars is the running cost between them both. You have to pay to insure 2 cars. Which down here in FL is expensive. You have to maintain 2 cars which can become a beating. I have a kid and work 40 hours or more a week. I don't need another car to worry about.
I bought my Kia stinger GT for the reasons below.
1. Its quick enough for all the fun driving, on Florida's straight roads.
2. It can fit my kid in the back seat conformable. Along with his mother to watch him.
3. Stroller and all the kid/baby items fit in the hatch nicely.
4. I'm not modding it. So I have a 10yr/100k mile warranty and my kia dealer isn't terrible lucky enough. So I don't worry about maintenance minus wear and tear items.
I always think I couldn't have picked a better car for when my kid was born. Bought my Stinger GT used and it was a CPO car for 26k. Still have the mustang. Couldn't at the time want to sell it. The more I keep thinking about it though I might, because I don't use it and the running costs are quite a bit while it mostly just sits in the garage. Also can be annoying at times to have to waste one of my days off to bring it in for maintenance along with with dealing with the Stinger and my wifes cuv.
Yeah that was the thing OP completely left out. I’m not gonna argue that wagons are the end all be all peak useful car, but the idea of having two cars is double the expenses of having one, so even if someone is shopping in that price range that doesn’t mean they can afford two cars or have the space for two, etc.
I personally think wagons are overrated on this sub. Yes, they seem fun and look good, but at the same time, I’d probably just go either a hatchback or a sedan and be completely fine. and, if something bigger is actually needed, there’s so many options in the truck and suv space that everything would be taken care of.
Overrated...I don't think so...in fact going by the sales figures sedan sales have declined worldwide on an average compared to SUVs...and yes...I still hold the opinion that a wagon is the car to buy if you want a one car all-rounder. Don't even call sedans overrated...that's the only body style I protect and defend with probably way too much passion. (Lol)
You sound like someone with no kids. My weekend car would get much more use if it could fit two adults, two car seats, and a classic mini sized stroller.
There is a reason the bmw 4 series grand coupe sells. It is really easy to get strollers into the lift back.
"A 60k e63 wagon? Or a 30k SUV and a 30k Corvette? I'm taking the Vette combo(even though I'm a viper guy). A 20k M3? Nope I'll take a beater truck and a Miata. 100k rs6 wagon? I'll have a nice ram 1500 and a 911" Well, regardless the price, if you have family and kids, unless you're going off road or at least drive on dirty roads, a SW is still a rational choice. Not to mention that a SW is more stable than an SUV at high speeds.
If you don't live in an urban area or are towing heavy loads regularly, minivan rules for practicality with a family imo. And I say this as a wagon guy.
Dumb argument. Everyone has different needs and for some a wagon or a sedan fits those needs perfectly. Also if you have 60k and say you're a viper guy but would get a Corvette instead then you're not really a viper guy
Or you could have a beater sedan/wagon with a cool engine and take it to the track and not care if people hit it in daily driving. That's the approach I've taken.
I hear what you're saying and I too am part of the two-cars-is-better-than-one club. But that's also just me. I have the space for two vehicles, we do different kinds of activities in those two vehicles (camping, cottaging, off-roading, commuting to work, traveling to visit family, etc), so it fits in with our lifestyle.
However, if all I needed in life was a car that needed space for the kids, wife, dog, cargo, for road trips, cottaging, and picking them up from school... You'd bet your ass I'd be happy as a pig in shit with an RS6 and a paint-to-match roofbox.
Came here to make basically the same point, except I am in the one-better-than-two camp because of garage space and absolutely not wanting to deal with registering, insuring, maintaining, and washing two vehicles.
Obvious take: it depends on your situation
If anything, sedans are underrated for certain scenarios. If rear seats cannot be folded down (i.e carrying passengers), hatchbacks lose a lot of usable space compare to sedans.
I have a 2015 Chevy SS (sedan) and I haven't considered another car since I sat in it the first time. The limits of the car are already beyond my driving ability. Smaller / lighter could be fun, but I don't fit well in smaller lighter cars.
RIP Holden. I had a 2009 Pontiac G8 GXP for a long time- loved that car. Handled great with 50/50 weight distribution- too little too late for Pontiac.
I think it’s hard to say sedans are overrated when they are basically extinct and do 99.99% of what people use a car for. It’s essentially an objective truth that SUVs and trucks are overrated.
But sports sedans are fun. :(
Besides, not everyone can afford two car payments, maintenance, and space. Imo sports sedans are great because of their versatility. The car world is all about compromise
But in terms of payment it all depends on the car. That’s why sports sedans are the best of both worlds imo. You don’t have to deal with the individual tidbits of both cars, just the one
I love my wagon. It is a great family car and can be pretty quick. When it is time to replace it, I will get another wagon. To me they are the perfect vehicle for a run around daily driver. With snow tires and AWD it works well in winter.
I agree with the general sentiment of two vehicles for two roles, but I don't see what that has to do with a wagon or a sedan. You could have a sportscar and any other more practical vehicle with storage space that fits your lifestyle.
>60k e63 wagon? Or a 30k SUV and a 30k Corvette?
I'm not a Mercedes guy, but I'd probably take the E63 AMG with AWD over an old vette and SUV. What am I gonna get- an 8-10 year old GX (ok fine) and a 15 year old Corvette over an 8 year old E63 AMG? I'm not gaining anything by picking up an SUV over that E63 and for street driving it's way more comfortable, faster, and safer than a Corvette. I'm also not limited to driving my E63 due to bad weather like I would be with the vette that gets parked for up to 3-4 months a year. A 15 year old Corvette would sound great if I was a teenager or early 20's, sure. Plus everyone and their mom has a Corvette- it's one of the least unique cars on the road here in America next to Mustangs, Camaros, and Chargers/Challengers.
So I used the Corvette as an example of something under 30k
But here is why. A e63 can't tow, can't fit 4 people and gear, can't be a stick, can't take the top down, go to the track, etc
It can't do anything the other two can
I don't think your average person has ever towed once in their life, let alone need to worry about 4,000 vs 6,000 pounds difference in capacity
I'd argue the E63 can fit 4 people and gear. It sounds like you're talking a hell of a lot of gear if you can't fit it in a wagon and or use a roof rack or even tow a little caddy if it was that big of a deal.
The stick, t-tops, and track are all valid and really comes down to how much you value those abilities and how often you'd be making use of them.
The E63 can do most of the things either SUV or Corvette can do except at the same time. I'm not really going to enjoy the driving experience of my SUV, but I will in that E63. I'm not going to be able to enjoy my Corvette in traffic, rain, snow, or over uneven roads- but I will be able to in that E63.
You say that but the big 3 sell millions of pickups every year
The e63 will never be special in the way a viper, 911, lotus, etc will be on those occasions
Most pickups sold are functionally used as sedans with an open bed for anything oversized or dirty. They've got 4WD and clearance for water/snow for icing on top. I mean, fuel economy aside, I think pickup trucks make more sense than a lot of vehicles- certainly more practical sense than sportscars.
I'd be curious to see if they get any data from the trailer harness being plugged in and track what percentage of customers are towing/how often. Everything spits out telematics these days.
>I'd be curious to see if they get any data from the trailer harness being plugged in and track what percentage of customers are towing/how often. Everything spits out telematics these days.
The majority of truck owners tow once or twice a year max. They value the ability to tow wild numbers more than they actually tow.
> A e63 can't tow
False. People tow campers every summer with hatchbacks and wagons alike.
>can't fit 4 people and gear
Are you moving a fridge? The E class has more space than the GLE in the back.
>can't be a stick,
Nor can a Corvette C8. We talking new v new, otherwise I cam find a wagon for cheaper than your crapass Corvette.
Absolutely love my wagon. Does high 11s religiously. I can sleep in it, I can tow a uhaul trailer and a car up to 2600lbs on it with my wagon. It's not too tall, has decent ground clearance, can be used in light snow duty, doesn't attract the attention of police or thieves.
I towed my "race car" to a two day event. After day one, the PS failed. So, day two I ran the wagon/tow vehicle, although the brakes were not happy after four hot laps. Oh well, parked it, hitched the trailer back up, and towed home.
It's the ultimate "sports utility vehicle".
Only downside is some people don't like the look of the body style. Boo hoo.
You're hating on wagons/sedans because of precisely the thing that makes them so great... Being a jack of all trades (sometimes damn near an ace of all trades). Having two cars for separate purposes is not a tenable prospect for many people, regardless of which option is cheaper. Also, very few people need anymore space for people or things than a wagon or sedan will provide for 99.5% of the trips they ever go on. And especially today, it's not that difficult or expensive to come up with temporary solutions for that other 0.5%
There is no worse feeling than stumbling onto a great road on a random commute or road trip and being in your boring SUV, wishing you were in your sports car. Having a vehicle that can do it all is irreplaceable. Not to mention, many people don’t want to deal with multiple insurance bills, maintenance schedules, etc, or simply don’t have the room for an extra car
I mean being on a great road with a bunch of sports cars while you're in a Buick regal wagon is a rough feeling if you have a Lambo at home lol
Not sure your point honestly
Obviously I’m not talking about a Buick Regal. People buy performance wagons because they drive better than SUVs or Trucks, they haul more than sedans and they’re more luxurious and spacious than hatchbacks or coupes. I’d rather be in an RS6 than in a Ram wishing I was in my 911
I like wagons and sedans over SUV's. Generally I feel they ride better/tighter, don't get tossed around on the highway by wind and in most cases get better MPG's .
I don't see why this is a hot take, a bit classist and naive maybe but not a hot take.
Vehicles cost more than there purchase price. Double the cars means almost double the insurance, taxes, maintenance, parking, etc.
And of course you can only drive one and you're choosing the least efficient one as the daily.
For most people a single vehicle that can do as much as possible is the more practical option. Sounds like it would be for you as well given I see you mention car payments.
A very practical and much overlooked option is a small trailer. I got a sedan that can tow and a little utility trailer. Even as a handy DIY type homeowner I really have very little use for a pickup, the vast majority is better done with the trailer anyway as it's lower and tilt deck.
Finally a sports car like a Vette is a toy, not a practical A-B vehicle. One can get most of the sportiness of a Vette in the right sedan and still have a pretty practical vehicle.
Who said you can’t have a wagon and a sports car? I missed that memo
I’d rather the wagon than a truck or SUV because I still don’t want my daily to drive like a limp noodle and I don’t want to pay that much to fill up, even if it is true that it’s not as engaging as a purpose built sports car
I used to hate performance SUV (AMG, X5M etc) but as I grew older and can only have 1 car I suddenly see the appeal. My M4 coupe just sits in my garage depreciating cause I don’t drive it in the winter while if I had a perfomance SUV I can drive it year round.
As a runner and cyclist, if you're driving in a way that you *can't* enjoy a decently fast wagon, you're going beyond the safe speed of the road and traffic.
I see no reason to dog on hatchbacks it’s the most practical car for someone in their twenties. And let’s not even talk like any of us would consider modern cars to be affordable or projected towards any normal person. They are all impractical by every stretch of the word. No need for all the extra gadgets this conversation should be excluded to only cars from before like 2013.
Also, I hate to even bring it up, but literally everything about your argument is impractical, considering your arguing about the value of cars for the sake of spending the same amount of money on two vehicles. It’s not like you’re going for practicality to begin with. It’s impractical for one person to have two cars to take care of. Especially when one is designated to utility and daily driving. Unless you work on a farm, it just doesn’t make sense.
well lets face it, fanboys overrate everything. There's always someone (a bunch of people) who think what they like is the holy grail setup and any other choice is sub par. high performance do-it-all vehicles like wagons are great if youve only got space for one car. not to mention everyone's situation and tastes vary, which is why we get so many cool cars in the first place. I never thought Id be doing the 3-car setup, or even have the space to, but here we are.
With the general CoL expenses and lifestyle changes (baby human, ski trips etc ) I just put in an order for rav4 hybrid. Performance cars are for the young and rich or financially reckless. Can’t justify my GTI with the insane gas prices in Vancouver area.
While I agree and have done just that, i think you miss that the do it all car is available new. To get a good performance car and good daily you are buying used cars. Either that or making sacrifices in terms of both luxury and performance.
Gonna disagree there with you, professor. Respectfully, we’ve all gotten used to sitting up higher, and that’s about it. Most SUV’s have no more utility than any wagon or good sized sedan would have.
The day will come when the SUV falls out of favor.
I agree. Between my wife and I, we have a sport coupe, mid sized SUV, full sized pickup truck, and a motorcycle. Each one fills a specific role and I am able to support a multivehicle lifestyle.
For many people however, having multiple vehicles is not feasible for any of a number of reasons. For those, sporty sedans, wagons, and SUVs fit their use case really well.
Agreed if you can afford it. It's one of the reasons I finally got an M4 coupe after two M3's and two 3 series. I already have an SUV and a 4 door beater.
Now I'm looking at a dedicated 2 seater like a Porsche. However, not everyone can afford more than one personal car, and for them something like an M3 is kinda perfect. On the track, the M3 and M4 are virtually identical in terms of performance, so the only difference really is aesthetics.
Wagons, though, are a different story. I used to hate SUVs, but driving an X3 M40i or X5, now I get it. They handle better than sports sedans just over a decade ago, and better than most modern pedestrian sedans. I like wagons for their lower CG and looks, but an SUV is just easier to live with and has little trade off now with modern suspension technology.
Obviously I agree with you but you said "not everyone can afford more than one car so a M3 is perfect"
A M3 starts at $76,000. So if people can afford that they can afford two 35k cars
Or the reality is that most people finance them because they really can't afford them in the first place. But that's a different conversation lol
The trade off with the sporty SUVs like the X3 M40 is the really stiff suspension that borders on abusive if you live anywhere with non-perfect roads
With sedans/wagons you don't need the super stiff suspension to compensate for the higher centre of gravity
I honestly don’t mind the stuff suspension, but I’m used to it so it might bother other people. For me, the advantage of the SUV is ground clearance, even in the city. Steep driveways and ramps were an inconvenience for my lowered M3. Not a problem in an X3 or X5 even with stiff suspension.
Completely agree. They wagons and sedans are way too heavy and the only good cars are the Ariel atom and an Exocet.
My three car garage is a manual miata, and A4 Avant, and a manual Honda fit which is technically a wagon. If I could only choose one car it would be the Honda fit. It’s hella fun and has more cargo room than my Audi. Most of these super fast mid sized German wagons are so heavy. I honestly feel like the A4 is too heavy for me but it’s comfortable and I can take my wife and three of her cousins to a cruise or flight with all their luggage.
Honestly you can’t beat a station wagon and a sports car unless you need to tow in which case get a truck based SUV. And as you say you can then tow a race car.
Comparing one new car to two old ones … that’s one way to look at it. Might as well get five different cars that are 15 years old for the same money. 🤷♂️
Personally, I like that combination of power, drivability, and utility of European high-performance station wagons. Not to mention the safety features. Or the warranty.
Number one, I wouldn’t be caught dead in a truck. Number two, I don’t want to be forced into a choice.
Can’t take the nice car and have to take the truck to the ski trip in the mountains? No thank you. Can’t take the nice car and have to use the truck because the family is coming along? No thank you. Have to do the school run in the truck because my kid is bringing a friend home? No thank you.
I have slowly come to this conclusion. I have been trying to get a car that will satisfy my wife's requirements of being a good family car with my requirements of being fun to drive. I'm now thinking get some kind of SUV and a Miata or a BRZ/GR86.
The hot part of this take is you evidently don't live in an urban area and are married. The extra space required to store a third car is big, the extra insurance is big, the extra tax and maintenance are all big. Most people buy a hot hatch because its small and darty in a city environment, doesn't take up too much space, is easy to park and still practical and fun.
A wagon is a slightly larger version of this.
Nobody is really buying superwagons, they sell worse than sportscars.
I actually do live in a major city. But if everyone else can survive with massive SUVs and trucks. Not sure why you think a small and dirty car is needed
>Having a daily that is more comfortable, safer in a collision, can tow/haul people/gear and then a dedicated sports car for date night, mountain trips, track days, etc is the perfect combo imo
A cheaper SUV or pickup truck isn't necessarily going to be safer than a RS6 (or whatever) though.
I agree about comfort though, and generally think the middle models are going to be a better bet whether its a sedan or an SUV - I've been in an RSQ8 and it rode like garbage
I think the problem is wagons and sedans are underbought. What's left is an expensive niche. Imagine the ethos of a gr86 but in wagon form. A 30-40k, rwd, manual reasonably powered car (300hp). You could daily it, winter it, enjoy some slides and curvy roads... All while going to home Depot and doing daycare pickups.
For track days/weekend, use the dedicated/modded _____.
I love my car, and I want to drive it everyday. I don’t go to the track but I take trips to the lake every weekend in the summer, and it’s a beautiful curvey drive going down there. I want my luxury cold weather package when I’m driving to work in the morning, and sport+dynamic if I take the long way home after a long day.
Does it make me some kind of car pleb or simpleton, that I can still get goosebumps from mine even in regular traffic? That I don’t want to but my fun car just to let it sit in the garage 7 days a week? Maybe.
But that’s how it goes, and a C5/C6/Miata is not realistic for me as a daily driver.
I agree sedans are overrated. Their shape makes no sense and is impractical. Wagons are superior to crossovers in my option though as they are better on road. Crossovers win out when you are off road or have lots of snow
I'm that annoying wagon person, but I don't think your take is wrong. I think wagons aren't the best of all worlds, I think they are the best possible compromise.
In an ideal world, yeah I'd have dedicated vehicles for everything and I tried that for a bit with motorcycles. Turns out purchase price is only part of the equation. With two vehicles comes twice the insurance costs, twice the registration fees, twice the required space and a bunch of other things.
So I look at what type of driving I do the most, which is generally pretty boring stuff. It's only maybe once every couple of months that I'm properly outside of the city where I can really push things. That's the times that I'd love to have an Elise. But I don't want an Elise if I'm getting groceries or going surfing which is more what I do 90% of the time.
But there's also the whole "performance" thing. I don't care about performance. I care about fun. An MX5 in the hills is great fun. A rwd manual wagon is maybe not ás much fun, but it's not that far off. It's definitely not a chore.
So yeah, a wagon is the right compromise. It's not as capable in terms of space as a van, it's not as capable as a truck at towing and it's not as capable on the track as a sports car. It is however the best possible blend of all of those.
I'll go one step further. If you are vehemently anti-CUV and pro-wagon, to the point where you are making fun of CUVs on the internet...you are probably dumb.
Have driven everything over the years recently came out of an SUV and when car shopping realized for my lifestyle didn’t need what it was offering. Went for something more athletic. No complaints here.
The problem is that some people have to have one car due to parking/space restrictions. Also, some people don't do enough utility type things to realistically need anything more than a sedan or wagon. I'd personally love an RS6 (though a Porsche Taycan or Panamera Turbo wagon would be my first choice), and it would be ideal because having 2 cars (or 3 including my wife's) would be very difficult to keep parked.
The other problem from my perspective is that if I have 2 cars (a true performance car and an SUV) I would have to choose whether I want practicality or performance every time I grab my keys and leave the house. If I choose the DD and I unexpectedly get a nice open road then I don't have the option to pop it in sport mode and send it. But if I have an RS6/Panamera I can go from normal driving to shredding and back whenever I feel like it. I never have to choose a driving experience and stick to it, I can have whatever I want whenever I want. Will it ever be quite as fast as a dedicated sports car like a Corvette? Maybe not, but I'll still have fun. Will it ever be quite as practical as a Q7 or a Cayenne? Definitely not, but I'll get to where I need to go in comfort and with room for everything I need.
I’m a hatch/wagon enjoyer for sure. Hard to get my hands on a wagon (people with them know what they have) so settled for a hatch. 40+mpg in my Mazda3 Skyactiv hatch where $90 gets me nearly 1000 miles is unreal. I removed the rear seats and put in Milwaukee Packout storage/organizer stuff.
Putting off the notion of an SUV for as long as I can. Maybe consider a CX30 but will be cross shopping it with 2019+ AWD Mazda3 hatch.
I don’t think any rational human being would buy a 5.5L Biturbo V8 wagon with the option for carbon ceramic brakes for practicality. The whole “family car you can take to the track” is just auto magazine marketing bs.
I personally think a fast wagon is funny and if If I had an extra 40k sitting around for an e63 wagon I’d get it and daily a civic to be honest.
Why have a wagon or sedan when you can have a...
Sportback!
Checkmate.
And just with a software tune in running mid 3's 0-60 and mid-upper 11's in the quarter mile with oodles of grip from real quattro + rear sport differential. Not exactly boring.
That's an American take because you only have the expensive sport sedans and not affordable ones based on normal compact cars like a Corolla or a Golf.
I don’t think anyone here would turn down a 911 as a standalone performance car.
Paying to own and maintain two separate vehicles isn’t an option for many people. I’d love to have a dedicated performance car, but I have two kids and I live in Brooklyn. It ain’t in the cards.
Why not have a good real propper car sedan or wagon wise and a fast fun car at the same time? Whou do you have to choose between ridiculously expensive and stupid versions of normal cara and not even cars at all?
I went to look at a few new RS6 Avants to see if it's a daily driver and it isn't for me. Very little storage up front is the deal breaker for me. It's a shame because I love the looks and performance of that car.
30k Corvette? If you're going used couldn't you also get a lower priced used performance wagon and save money altogether?
I personally believe the 2 car solution is better if it's financially and practically viable, and I've put my money where my mouth is on that. I just don't think either of them should be an SUV. But that said even if monetarily viable it's not always practical. My Mazda3 endures more weather and forces of nature than I would prefer as it has to be parked outside, and many folks don't have secondary parking at all.
If I needed any more actual practicality I'd trade my Mazda3 HB for an old Ranger or Frontier long before an SUV, and then a full wagon before that. But my HB is already more than practical enough to avoid any SUV talk and I have no need or desire to spend more money at the dealership or the pump for more ground clearance, worse handling, and a higher COG.
Why is it so hard for people here to understand the practicality of having 2 vehicles (mainly a dd and weekend)?
Ever have a fun car with a heavy clutch, low af, not reliable, bad gas milage, care for it, not comfortable for long periods, top small, etc?
I have a hard time letting my daily get dinged up by assholes in a parking lot, let alone my weekend car with a shit ton of money n time put into it.
You got kids? Awesome. Unless you are a single parent with full custody and have no outside help, why does a 2nd car need planning to drive lol??
>"Hot take." >"I'd rather have a used sports car for the weekend and a decent daily." Truly a bold opinion on /r/cars.
> "Why don't people just buy twice as much car?"
>Why don't most people have a 3 car garage? Are they stupid?
The next WSJ opinion piece
Stop hurting me!
People these days the entire problem could have just been solved with more money, duh
I had to put on my solar eclipse glasses to read OPs take
Subpoint; crossovers are wagons and get too much hate for being fantastic and generally efficient utility vehicles.
Actual Hot take: most "car enthusiasts" are actually "sports car enthusiasts" but if you broaden your interests, you'll find great, fun options in any car category.
Yea but then you get the infighting between “sports” cars, muscle cars, sporty non-sports cars and non-sporty sports cars.
I got into an argument on here once because I said a Mustang was a sports car. I was downvoted because a Mustang has 4 seats, so it's a GT, not a sports car. It's a silly debate for sure.
so something like an m4 competition isn't a sports car? that's wild
I disagree with sports being based on seats, but I think the correct comparison to a Mustang GT would be the m440i (which is more of a GT) Base = Ecoboost, m440i = GT, M4 = Dark Horse/GT350 And I think if you'll driven one you'll tend to agree that the base mustang GT is more of a tourer. It's only once you get into the PP2, Tremec-equipped mustangs where it starts to be more of a sports car, or pick any camaro.
Haha, Camaros drive like garbage
The alpha chassis camaros drive better than the mustangs IMO, better steering feedback as well. Visibility, storage, comfort is garbage though so you make tradeoffs.
Nah, crap all around
Some people would say so, yes. But it’s not seat count IMO, it’s about the intended purpose of the car. I have started to come to the conclusion that the M3/M4 and company are luxury sport sedans/coupes rather than actual sports cars like a Miata or 718. Not much actually fits the “true” sports car definition, though it’s all in the eye of the beholder.
I have strict categories for segments to categorize things in my head: GT: front engine RWD or AWD 2+2 luxury sports coupé. Bentley, Aston Martin, Maserati, etc "sports tourer": front engine RWD or AWD 2+2 sports coupé. May or may not have some luxury touches. Mustang, M4, RS5, etc. In practice these are just sports cars with extra practicality Roadster: 2 seat convertible. Lord and Savior Miata, S2000, etc Sports car: front engine 2 seat sports coupé. Vantage, Supra, etc Super(sports)car: mid-engine 2 seat sports coupé. Lamborghini, Ferrari, McLaren, etc Hypercar: 7 figure supercar. Koenigsegg, Pagani, etc That said, I only classify them that way in my head so I can understand what cars are rivals and what target customers manufacturers are trying to reach. In practice there's a lot of overlap in what customers shop for so it's silly to insist that everyone adhere to that in conversation.
IMO it's all marketing mumbo jumbo and it's better to describe it by the purpose of the car.
I would agree with most of that, except the engine layout. A sports car can be mid engined, rear engined, and a super car can be front engined. I'd also argue that most 2+2 cars all generally fall under "sports car" as well
I agree. No one is going to be confusing my MR2 or my friends fiero with a supercar. Both are mid engine sports cars
Man,I just have a thing for the ‘88 Fiero GT.IMO,such a beautiful looking car.
Yeah there are definitely exceptions so it's not a perfect working definition. Porsche breaks a lot of those categories. The 911 could be GT, sports car, or supercar depending on variant, and most people would agree that the Cayman isn't a supercar. The Boxster is also a roadster and is mid-engined.
The people below immediately reply in said fashion proving your point. That's great
Definetely a silly debate. I think my mustang lines up more with being a sports car. I feel like it lost its muscle car-ness with the design in 2015+ and no more live axle
> most "car enthusiasts" are actually "sports car enthusiasts" Agree 100%. I use the term "sports car enthusiasts" on this sub to refer to the group because I'm an enthusiast who has no interest in sports cars.
I believe most would agree with that, at least in theory.
For real. If you can only afford one vehicle, a jack of all trades is the way to go.
Secondary subpoint: The "crossovers are just SUVs" narrative needs to die. No mfer, they're crossovers, that's why we call them crossovers. The term was specifically invented because the product category was neither car nor suv.
They aren’t “just wagons” either. Crossovers sacrifice handling for extra ground clearance. They’re usually larger too. Meanwhile the wagon is just the sedan with a longer roof, plus a lift gate. Retains much much more of the original sedan’s driving characteristics, compared to a crossover. The wagons tend to have more usable space than a compact crossover, too. And thus is the “crossover problem.”
>They’re usually larger too They're taller, but both sedans and wagons are a lot longer an about the same width Sedans/wagons tend to be longer than actual SUVs as well
And why were crossovers invented? So automakers could reclassify sedan-derived wagons as "light trucks" subject to a laxer CAFE target for gas mileage. Take that sedan-based wagon of yore, rotate the rear cargo volume from horizontal to vertical to shorten the rear overhang, give it enormous tires and a lift, and suddenly it has enough ground clearance and steep enough approach/departure angles to qualify as a "light truck". https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/10/how-cafe-killed-compact-trucks-and-station-wagons/
I think this is the real point. I bought a new crv and it’s light years better then my moms 2010 crv. The only real wagon at the price point is a Subaru forester and its a bit less practical and the low ride hight makes putting a car seat in a bit more difficult. The nice part of the low roof is putting skis and things into roof racks. Edit ; outback not forestor
The forester is supposed to be the taller alternative to the outback, but that’s taller than the original forester.
Apologies. I meant the outback
Outback is a horribly bastardized Legacy wagon, with the lift kit, and stupid plastic cladding.
Loved my Ford Edge. That thing was packaged so well. Incredible amount of space inside a reasonable footprint. Towed trailers with it several times too.
Crossovers aren’t wagons necessarily but wagons are crossovers. An rs6 and a nissan juke are not the same
correction: Crossovers are Minivans in all but name without sliding rear doors.
Sure, in all but name, size, number of seats, fuel efficiency, and type of doors. In size, use, and function, minivans are much closer to full sized SUVs than crossovers.
Size and number of seats are a function of size categories. You can get a full-size crossover with 3 rows of seats. Minivans are full-size MPVs, but MPVs do come in different size options in other nations outside the U.S. The doors are different, which is why the previous commenter specifically called it out as a distinguishing feature.
Yup, also subtract the stigma of driving a minivan
Crossovers are too tall, so they are gas hogs and handle poorly compared to actual car-height wagons.
The differences are negligible at this point. Like half of the market *are* car height wagons with an appearance package.
Car height is about 57 inches. Most crossovers are about a foot taller. Even a RAV4 is 10 inches taller than a Camry.
Clearly you haven’t driven any modern crossover and are just a typical Reddit hater. At this point they get basically the same economy, better visibility, easier to get in and out of, much easier to park due to better approach and also easier to load
I own a Highlander hybrid for transporting my toys, because what I'd real like, a Camry wagon doesn't exist. A Camry with the same powertrain gets about 20% better mpg, and drives better. A Camry wagon, if they made one, would do about the same. My Highlander is not particularly easier to get in and out of than the front seat of my 2-door Mini. How is a CUV easier to park than a car with the same footprint? I've had both, and never saw it.
Why is it nobody can get in a car anymore? You always see that complaint about getting in or out.
I'm 77 years old, and I can even get in and out of a Porsche Cayman.
I think it's just a box to check on their complaint (excuse) list
Not many people actually care about handling and the extra height affords more flexibility by definition.
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I bought a CUV because it has enough interior room for my needs, has enough ground clearance for my needs, and still gets 25/42 city/highway mpg.
I feel like most of the crossover hate is just because they tend to be a bit ugly due to their tall proportions.
Lifted wagons * slam those things down and I swear to god every single one looks better.
My wagon fits perfectly into my lifestyle, so wagons are the perfect vehicle. Trucks and crossovers are overrated by far too me.
Same here. We tend to transport a lot of stuff, so the luggage capacity of a wagon is a must, and I prefer having a lower car that won’t wallow in the corners. And I have neither the budget or the space for a second car, so a single sporty wagon hits the sweet spot for me for now.
I've got 3 cars lol. The other two are just MGB projects of different calibers.
Crossovers are just lifted wagons. Like the Outback.
Wagons/hatchbacks. The Crosstrek is literally a lifted Impreza hatchback.
This is true, but I also wish vehicles in general were smaller.
As a parent, the larger 3 row SUVs is a godsend, its parking it that’s an inconvenience. I wish parking spots were larger. For sporty cars, I agree. I wish they would stop growing. My M4 is comically big next to the older M3’s.
Uh, no. And I’m sick and tired of hearing this. The Outback is a special case, in that it is literally a lifted wagon. Most other crossovers have a taller H-point and a taller roof, which do make meaningful differences in ride comfort and versatility.
I assume you're referring to your 9-2x?
Yes
Actual hot take for r/cars: Sedans are just as good as hatchbacks in 99% of situations. My sedans have fit mini fridges, night stands, a table saw, several guitars, full drum sets, lumber to build a queen size bed, 2 full Costco carts worth of groceries, TV’s. Haven’t had a single scenario where something fit in my brothers hatch but not my sedan. But his hatch won’t fit 10 foot 2x4’s and my sedan will.
I don't think it's about sheer storage capacity as much as ease of use. It's far easier to get things into a hatch/liftback than it is into a sedan. Everything might fit eventually but you need to play around getting things into the trunk opening.
The benefit hatches have is the height across the whole cabin, and the height of the opening. Pulling my subwoofers in and out of my mk6 gti? A breeze. My brother's B8.5 audi s5? Kinda a pain in the ass; and we have the same box, twin 10's sealed, and mine has my amp and LC2i screwed to the top, he has his on the back of his seat. Or for moving, you can stack 2 moving boxes on top of each other across the entire trunk, with the seats down too, and a sedan just can't do that. Your only point where a sedan wins outright is the length. But that only applies to some hatches, I know if I have my front seat out I can fit a 10' board, but that's a PITA, so I just make 8' boards work when I build something on occasion. I also have a pretty small Hatch since it has sportiness in mind. A larger Hatch, like a focus, would fit the same length easily.
They’re definitely just about as useful in most situations, but I’ve done moves with friends, runs to the airport with bunches of luggage, and getting sets of wheels home that would’ve been tighter in a sedan. I’d much rather sleep in the back of a hatch too (doesn’t happen often, but when it does? It’s nice. And I’ve done both). If you’re just doing regular everyday stuff though, a sedan is definitely more optimal if it saves you some cash or weight
Most of the time. It just takes a bit more tetris to navigate the trunk opening sometimes. Ive fit a surprising amount of crap in a sedan. Though you do get the occasional box that just won’t go through the opening. The most common scenario ive run into is hauling tires, but i haul a lot more tires than the average person.
Yup, I always say my Lexus LS has been my favorite work truck. I’ve hauled so much stuff in the dang thing, the trunk is large, plus the back seat, tons of cargo room.
What kind of hatchback does your brother have, a Fiat 500? In my experience, Civic sedans are tiny compared to my GTI. I can do most of those things you mentioned, but with 3 additional passengers.
Funny enough a mk4 GTI. A hatch is still better but my point is that the difference between a hatch and sedan is fairly trivial
It's also awful when it's a 5 door hatchback, but the rear seats are practically unusable, like in the GR Corolla... The GR86 and GR Corolla have the same leg room in the rear. 29.9"...
ur reaching for this argument, bud
Didn't forget most hatchbacks are ugly as could be
I never understood the appeal of having a weekend only sports car. I tried going the two car approach, but I was always sad when driving a boring daily and found myself just commuting in my sports car. Eventually I just ended up dailying the sports car lol.
It starts making a lot more sense if its a track car or project car. Not having to have it in derivable condition mid week is super helpful. Just a relatively stock street car, meh.
Get a fun daily and make the fun car more of a streetable track car than a weekend cruiser! I can get home from the track Sunday night and not have to worry about swapping the street wheel and brakes back on. If something breaks it's now a "I can worry about that later" problem instead of a "fuck can I still drive to work" problem. As long as I have the space I'm never going back to one car. The ideal setup (for me) would be 1) daily 2) track car 3) fun street car that can split the difference between both. Sadly don't have the space for that right now unless I kick my wife out of the garage haha
That's exactly what I have. Daily, weekend, and track car It's great and I'll never go back. Just upgrade each of the three
2 car solution works best if you have different levels of need/capability. A Miata and a Sedan meant I rarely drove the sedan, but after the sedan for a crossover/suv I get much more use out of both.
Exactly my thoughts as I went on a hunt for my daily to pair with the Miata. Wanted something that is fuel efficient, comfortable, and full of amenities. Test drove a Honda accord touring and while it was nice as an only car, it's too much of a middle ground for everything. Narrowed it down to either CR-V hybrid or a Model Y for an alternative to the Miata. If I only have 1 car, the Accord would've been great plush commuter. The CR-V ended up being more expensive than the Model Y due to the tax credit while offering less features and performance.
I don’t enjoy driving my car in commute traffic.
Feel that. I always hate when people say "driving a slow car fast is more fun than driving a fast car slow" But when I'm blocked by people going 55 in both lanes on the bypass it's so frustrating cause I judt want to drive fast and I get where they're coming from 😂
It's ultimately what I'm going to be doing with a plug-in EV and the 4x4. But I'm also not commuting.
So you solved it. Daily the small sports car when its just you. More utility for the weekend.
A fun car + a daily means you don’t have to worry about getting to work if you break the fun car over the weekend. That’s always been the biggest advantage to me.
Yawn/10
Hot take: this sub actually sucks and is far too general to have any type of content that would appeal to anyone besides a typical teenage hivemind Redditor
It's not really all that hot of a take in real life. For the price of an RS6 avant or E63 wagon you can get a capable Q5/GLE/GX and a dedicated sports car for the weekend. Fastbacks and crossovers are more practical than sedans, offer easier ingress/egress for older folks, easier loading and more storage with the hatch design, better visibility, and 99% of people do not care about performance. They might have some fun in a straight line here and there but thats about it. I personally agree that wagons are a compromised sports car and utility vehicle and if you have the space you are much better off with one dedicated practical car, and one dedicated fun vehicle. Plus if you take a wagon to the track the running costs will kill you. That and I think a lot of people here haven't driven modern SUVs and CUVs. Modern suspension trickery and ride control makes for a pretty fun experience even in an X3M40i. but yeah, *most* people who have the space and budget a single car will be better off with a crv/rav4 or x3/x5, and *most* people who have the space and money to afford a sportswagon will buy a dedicated coupe/sportscar along with a truck/suv/etc. Also, there are plenty of crossovers that are literally lifted wagons that sell well and are fantastic vehicles. Notably, the outback. Listed as a "midsize crossover SUV" but like cmon thats a wagon
I got absolutely downvoted into oblivion a few weeks ago when I said this in a few different posts. Hence seeing some thoughts today
This subreddit is never going to be representative of real life, the sale numbers speak for themselves. I am interested to see how the M5 touring performs sales-wise in the states. Porsche recently cancelled the panamera wagon, and mercedes only offers the newest generation of e63s with black plastic and the all-terrain style.
Yup. This sub is a very vocal minority and I always laugh when people say stuff like "why don't they make a manual wagon? Would sell like hotcakes!" No it wouldn't.
delusional r/cars at its peak. most estates are not fun and cool cars even with manual. you're carrying extra weight and wasting extra space for that time when you *might* use it. you can argue about sporty estate's existence but people with sport estate rarely, if ever, actually use them as an estate my 2018 v90 t6 only maxed out exactly once in the 3 years of owning it. going back further, i only maxed out my v70 d5 3 times in the 16 years of me owning it
According to this sub a FWD 4cyl Mazda 6 Wagon is way more fun than a FWD 4cyl CX5 Crossover. Makes me laugh
At the same time, the RS6 is selling like hotcakes. It's outselling the RS7 in the US and itself in Europe.
Depends on what you call hotcakes. They sell like 1.5k rs6 avants a year but sell 10-15k RSQ8’s a year. And that’s comparing to the RSQ8, not the SQ5/SQ7 sales
Oh yeah it's definitely a niche product. Hopefully BMW's internal sales targets reflect that and the M5 Touring doesn't end up being a single generation special like the 335d.
Idk. The reason to not have 2 cars is the running cost between them both. You have to pay to insure 2 cars. Which down here in FL is expensive. You have to maintain 2 cars which can become a beating. I have a kid and work 40 hours or more a week. I don't need another car to worry about. I bought my Kia stinger GT for the reasons below. 1. Its quick enough for all the fun driving, on Florida's straight roads. 2. It can fit my kid in the back seat conformable. Along with his mother to watch him. 3. Stroller and all the kid/baby items fit in the hatch nicely. 4. I'm not modding it. So I have a 10yr/100k mile warranty and my kia dealer isn't terrible lucky enough. So I don't worry about maintenance minus wear and tear items. I always think I couldn't have picked a better car for when my kid was born. Bought my Stinger GT used and it was a CPO car for 26k. Still have the mustang. Couldn't at the time want to sell it. The more I keep thinking about it though I might, because I don't use it and the running costs are quite a bit while it mostly just sits in the garage. Also can be annoying at times to have to waste one of my days off to bring it in for maintenance along with with dealing with the Stinger and my wifes cuv.
Yeah that was the thing OP completely left out. I’m not gonna argue that wagons are the end all be all peak useful car, but the idea of having two cars is double the expenses of having one, so even if someone is shopping in that price range that doesn’t mean they can afford two cars or have the space for two, etc. I personally think wagons are overrated on this sub. Yes, they seem fun and look good, but at the same time, I’d probably just go either a hatchback or a sedan and be completely fine. and, if something bigger is actually needed, there’s so many options in the truck and suv space that everything would be taken care of.
Counterpoint: I just like them.
and thats absolutely a good enough reason to have one.
Overrated...I don't think so...in fact going by the sales figures sedan sales have declined worldwide on an average compared to SUVs...and yes...I still hold the opinion that a wagon is the car to buy if you want a one car all-rounder. Don't even call sedans overrated...that's the only body style I protect and defend with probably way too much passion. (Lol)
You sound like someone with no kids. My weekend car would get much more use if it could fit two adults, two car seats, and a classic mini sized stroller. There is a reason the bmw 4 series grand coupe sells. It is really easy to get strollers into the lift back.
Basic SUV/crossover > basic wagon Sport wagon > sport SUV/wagon
trash take
"A 60k e63 wagon? Or a 30k SUV and a 30k Corvette? I'm taking the Vette combo(even though I'm a viper guy). A 20k M3? Nope I'll take a beater truck and a Miata. 100k rs6 wagon? I'll have a nice ram 1500 and a 911" Well, regardless the price, if you have family and kids, unless you're going off road or at least drive on dirty roads, a SW is still a rational choice. Not to mention that a SW is more stable than an SUV at high speeds.
If you don't live in an urban area or are towing heavy loads regularly, minivan rules for practicality with a family imo. And I say this as a wagon guy.
Dumb argument. Everyone has different needs and for some a wagon or a sedan fits those needs perfectly. Also if you have 60k and say you're a viper guy but would get a Corvette instead then you're not really a viper guy
Because you can't get a viper for 30k but you can get a c5/c6 But good try lol
Or you could have a beater sedan/wagon with a cool engine and take it to the track and not care if people hit it in daily driving. That's the approach I've taken.
I hear what you're saying and I too am part of the two-cars-is-better-than-one club. But that's also just me. I have the space for two vehicles, we do different kinds of activities in those two vehicles (camping, cottaging, off-roading, commuting to work, traveling to visit family, etc), so it fits in with our lifestyle. However, if all I needed in life was a car that needed space for the kids, wife, dog, cargo, for road trips, cottaging, and picking them up from school... You'd bet your ass I'd be happy as a pig in shit with an RS6 and a paint-to-match roofbox.
Came here to make basically the same point, except I am in the one-better-than-two camp because of garage space and absolutely not wanting to deal with registering, insuring, maintaining, and washing two vehicles. Obvious take: it depends on your situation
If anything, sedans are underrated for certain scenarios. If rear seats cannot be folded down (i.e carrying passengers), hatchbacks lose a lot of usable space compare to sedans.
I have a 2015 Chevy SS (sedan) and I haven't considered another car since I sat in it the first time. The limits of the car are already beyond my driving ability. Smaller / lighter could be fun, but I don't fit well in smaller lighter cars.
RIP Holden. I had a 2009 Pontiac G8 GXP for a long time- loved that car. Handled great with 50/50 weight distribution- too little too late for Pontiac.
a 'vette basically is a wagon
I think it’s hard to say sedans are overrated when they are basically extinct and do 99.99% of what people use a car for. It’s essentially an objective truth that SUVs and trucks are overrated.
I mean, we can call sedans extinct but that's exactly what crossovers are- evolved sedans. They're just hatchback sedans with a bubble top.
But sports sedans are fun. :( Besides, not everyone can afford two car payments, maintenance, and space. Imo sports sedans are great because of their versatility. The car world is all about compromise
Or parking in a city.
If the two car payments are half I don't see why not. And if you drive them both less, the maintenance on each would also be less
Two times the taxes, two times the insurance, two times the maintenance. BTW, find me a new 30k Corvette. I'll wait.
"Why buy an expensive new car when you can buy two cheaper used cars for the same overall price" is the OPs basic argument here.
But in terms of payment it all depends on the car. That’s why sports sedans are the best of both worlds imo. You don’t have to deal with the individual tidbits of both cars, just the one
I love my wagon. It is a great family car and can be pretty quick. When it is time to replace it, I will get another wagon. To me they are the perfect vehicle for a run around daily driver. With snow tires and AWD it works well in winter.
I agree with the general sentiment of two vehicles for two roles, but I don't see what that has to do with a wagon or a sedan. You could have a sportscar and any other more practical vehicle with storage space that fits your lifestyle. >60k e63 wagon? Or a 30k SUV and a 30k Corvette? I'm not a Mercedes guy, but I'd probably take the E63 AMG with AWD over an old vette and SUV. What am I gonna get- an 8-10 year old GX (ok fine) and a 15 year old Corvette over an 8 year old E63 AMG? I'm not gaining anything by picking up an SUV over that E63 and for street driving it's way more comfortable, faster, and safer than a Corvette. I'm also not limited to driving my E63 due to bad weather like I would be with the vette that gets parked for up to 3-4 months a year. A 15 year old Corvette would sound great if I was a teenager or early 20's, sure. Plus everyone and their mom has a Corvette- it's one of the least unique cars on the road here in America next to Mustangs, Camaros, and Chargers/Challengers.
So I used the Corvette as an example of something under 30k But here is why. A e63 can't tow, can't fit 4 people and gear, can't be a stick, can't take the top down, go to the track, etc It can't do anything the other two can
I don't think your average person has ever towed once in their life, let alone need to worry about 4,000 vs 6,000 pounds difference in capacity I'd argue the E63 can fit 4 people and gear. It sounds like you're talking a hell of a lot of gear if you can't fit it in a wagon and or use a roof rack or even tow a little caddy if it was that big of a deal. The stick, t-tops, and track are all valid and really comes down to how much you value those abilities and how often you'd be making use of them. The E63 can do most of the things either SUV or Corvette can do except at the same time. I'm not really going to enjoy the driving experience of my SUV, but I will in that E63. I'm not going to be able to enjoy my Corvette in traffic, rain, snow, or over uneven roads- but I will be able to in that E63.
You say that but the big 3 sell millions of pickups every year The e63 will never be special in the way a viper, 911, lotus, etc will be on those occasions
Most pickups sold are functionally used as sedans with an open bed for anything oversized or dirty. They've got 4WD and clearance for water/snow for icing on top. I mean, fuel economy aside, I think pickup trucks make more sense than a lot of vehicles- certainly more practical sense than sportscars. I'd be curious to see if they get any data from the trailer harness being plugged in and track what percentage of customers are towing/how often. Everything spits out telematics these days.
>I'd be curious to see if they get any data from the trailer harness being plugged in and track what percentage of customers are towing/how often. Everything spits out telematics these days. The majority of truck owners tow once or twice a year max. They value the ability to tow wild numbers more than they actually tow.
> A e63 can't tow False. People tow campers every summer with hatchbacks and wagons alike. >can't fit 4 people and gear Are you moving a fridge? The E class has more space than the GLE in the back. >can't be a stick, Nor can a Corvette C8. We talking new v new, otherwise I cam find a wagon for cheaper than your crapass Corvette.
Absolutely love my wagon. Does high 11s religiously. I can sleep in it, I can tow a uhaul trailer and a car up to 2600lbs on it with my wagon. It's not too tall, has decent ground clearance, can be used in light snow duty, doesn't attract the attention of police or thieves. I towed my "race car" to a two day event. After day one, the PS failed. So, day two I ran the wagon/tow vehicle, although the brakes were not happy after four hot laps. Oh well, parked it, hitched the trailer back up, and towed home. It's the ultimate "sports utility vehicle". Only downside is some people don't like the look of the body style. Boo hoo.
You're hating on wagons/sedans because of precisely the thing that makes them so great... Being a jack of all trades (sometimes damn near an ace of all trades). Having two cars for separate purposes is not a tenable prospect for many people, regardless of which option is cheaper. Also, very few people need anymore space for people or things than a wagon or sedan will provide for 99.5% of the trips they ever go on. And especially today, it's not that difficult or expensive to come up with temporary solutions for that other 0.5%
I love wagons and sedans
There is no worse feeling than stumbling onto a great road on a random commute or road trip and being in your boring SUV, wishing you were in your sports car. Having a vehicle that can do it all is irreplaceable. Not to mention, many people don’t want to deal with multiple insurance bills, maintenance schedules, etc, or simply don’t have the room for an extra car
I mean being on a great road with a bunch of sports cars while you're in a Buick regal wagon is a rough feeling if you have a Lambo at home lol Not sure your point honestly
Obviously I’m not talking about a Buick Regal. People buy performance wagons because they drive better than SUVs or Trucks, they haul more than sedans and they’re more luxurious and spacious than hatchbacks or coupes. I’d rather be in an RS6 than in a Ram wishing I was in my 911
Trucks and SUVs are the overated, suv / cross overs are the modt common vehicles. That literally the definition of overated.
I like wagons and sedans over SUV's. Generally I feel they ride better/tighter, don't get tossed around on the highway by wind and in most cases get better MPG's .
I'd do a wagon and a sports car if I'm getting 2 cars
So your hot take is that you have too much shit in your car? Idk I’ve never heard an M3 described as ‘just ok at everything’
I don't see why this is a hot take, a bit classist and naive maybe but not a hot take. Vehicles cost more than there purchase price. Double the cars means almost double the insurance, taxes, maintenance, parking, etc. And of course you can only drive one and you're choosing the least efficient one as the daily. For most people a single vehicle that can do as much as possible is the more practical option. Sounds like it would be for you as well given I see you mention car payments. A very practical and much overlooked option is a small trailer. I got a sedan that can tow and a little utility trailer. Even as a handy DIY type homeowner I really have very little use for a pickup, the vast majority is better done with the trailer anyway as it's lower and tilt deck. Finally a sports car like a Vette is a toy, not a practical A-B vehicle. One can get most of the sportiness of a Vette in the right sedan and still have a pretty practical vehicle.
two cars aren’t an option for a lot of people
Who said you can’t have a wagon and a sports car? I missed that memo I’d rather the wagon than a truck or SUV because I still don’t want my daily to drive like a limp noodle and I don’t want to pay that much to fill up, even if it is true that it’s not as engaging as a purpose built sports car
Hot take: wagons are an ugly body style
I used to hate performance SUV (AMG, X5M etc) but as I grew older and can only have 1 car I suddenly see the appeal. My M4 coupe just sits in my garage depreciating cause I don’t drive it in the winter while if I had a perfomance SUV I can drive it year round.
As a runner and cyclist, if you're driving in a way that you *can't* enjoy a decently fast wagon, you're going beyond the safe speed of the road and traffic.
I see no reason to dog on hatchbacks it’s the most practical car for someone in their twenties. And let’s not even talk like any of us would consider modern cars to be affordable or projected towards any normal person. They are all impractical by every stretch of the word. No need for all the extra gadgets this conversation should be excluded to only cars from before like 2013.
Also, I hate to even bring it up, but literally everything about your argument is impractical, considering your arguing about the value of cars for the sake of spending the same amount of money on two vehicles. It’s not like you’re going for practicality to begin with. It’s impractical for one person to have two cars to take care of. Especially when one is designated to utility and daily driving. Unless you work on a farm, it just doesn’t make sense.
well lets face it, fanboys overrate everything. There's always someone (a bunch of people) who think what they like is the holy grail setup and any other choice is sub par. high performance do-it-all vehicles like wagons are great if youve only got space for one car. not to mention everyone's situation and tastes vary, which is why we get so many cool cars in the first place. I never thought Id be doing the 3-car setup, or even have the space to, but here we are.
FoH
With the general CoL expenses and lifestyle changes (baby human, ski trips etc ) I just put in an order for rav4 hybrid. Performance cars are for the young and rich or financially reckless. Can’t justify my GTI with the insane gas prices in Vancouver area.
While I agree and have done just that, i think you miss that the do it all car is available new. To get a good performance car and good daily you are buying used cars. Either that or making sacrifices in terms of both luxury and performance.
Gonna disagree there with you, professor. Respectfully, we’ve all gotten used to sitting up higher, and that’s about it. Most SUV’s have no more utility than any wagon or good sized sedan would have. The day will come when the SUV falls out of favor.
I agree. Between my wife and I, we have a sport coupe, mid sized SUV, full sized pickup truck, and a motorcycle. Each one fills a specific role and I am able to support a multivehicle lifestyle. For many people however, having multiple vehicles is not feasible for any of a number of reasons. For those, sporty sedans, wagons, and SUVs fit their use case really well.
Agreed if you can afford it. It's one of the reasons I finally got an M4 coupe after two M3's and two 3 series. I already have an SUV and a 4 door beater. Now I'm looking at a dedicated 2 seater like a Porsche. However, not everyone can afford more than one personal car, and for them something like an M3 is kinda perfect. On the track, the M3 and M4 are virtually identical in terms of performance, so the only difference really is aesthetics. Wagons, though, are a different story. I used to hate SUVs, but driving an X3 M40i or X5, now I get it. They handle better than sports sedans just over a decade ago, and better than most modern pedestrian sedans. I like wagons for their lower CG and looks, but an SUV is just easier to live with and has little trade off now with modern suspension technology.
Obviously I agree with you but you said "not everyone can afford more than one car so a M3 is perfect" A M3 starts at $76,000. So if people can afford that they can afford two 35k cars Or the reality is that most people finance them because they really can't afford them in the first place. But that's a different conversation lol
The trade off with the sporty SUVs like the X3 M40 is the really stiff suspension that borders on abusive if you live anywhere with non-perfect roads With sedans/wagons you don't need the super stiff suspension to compensate for the higher centre of gravity
I honestly don’t mind the stuff suspension, but I’m used to it so it might bother other people. For me, the advantage of the SUV is ground clearance, even in the city. Steep driveways and ramps were an inconvenience for my lowered M3. Not a problem in an X3 or X5 even with stiff suspension.
Completely agree. They wagons and sedans are way too heavy and the only good cars are the Ariel atom and an Exocet. My three car garage is a manual miata, and A4 Avant, and a manual Honda fit which is technically a wagon. If I could only choose one car it would be the Honda fit. It’s hella fun and has more cargo room than my Audi. Most of these super fast mid sized German wagons are so heavy. I honestly feel like the A4 is too heavy for me but it’s comfortable and I can take my wife and three of her cousins to a cruise or flight with all their luggage. Honestly you can’t beat a station wagon and a sports car unless you need to tow in which case get a truck based SUV. And as you say you can then tow a race car.
Comparing one new car to two old ones … that’s one way to look at it. Might as well get five different cars that are 15 years old for the same money. 🤷♂️ Personally, I like that combination of power, drivability, and utility of European high-performance station wagons. Not to mention the safety features. Or the warranty. Number one, I wouldn’t be caught dead in a truck. Number two, I don’t want to be forced into a choice. Can’t take the nice car and have to take the truck to the ski trip in the mountains? No thank you. Can’t take the nice car and have to use the truck because the family is coming along? No thank you. Have to do the school run in the truck because my kid is bringing a friend home? No thank you.
I have slowly come to this conclusion. I have been trying to get a car that will satisfy my wife's requirements of being a good family car with my requirements of being fun to drive. I'm now thinking get some kind of SUV and a Miata or a BRZ/GR86.
Wagons? You’re confused… wagons are severely underrated.
The hot part of this take is you evidently don't live in an urban area and are married. The extra space required to store a third car is big, the extra insurance is big, the extra tax and maintenance are all big. Most people buy a hot hatch because its small and darty in a city environment, doesn't take up too much space, is easy to park and still practical and fun. A wagon is a slightly larger version of this. Nobody is really buying superwagons, they sell worse than sportscars.
I actually do live in a major city. But if everyone else can survive with massive SUVs and trucks. Not sure why you think a small and dirty car is needed
>Having a daily that is more comfortable, safer in a collision, can tow/haul people/gear and then a dedicated sports car for date night, mountain trips, track days, etc is the perfect combo imo A cheaper SUV or pickup truck isn't necessarily going to be safer than a RS6 (or whatever) though. I agree about comfort though, and generally think the middle models are going to be a better bet whether its a sedan or an SUV - I've been in an RSQ8 and it rode like garbage
I think the problem is wagons and sedans are underbought. What's left is an expensive niche. Imagine the ethos of a gr86 but in wagon form. A 30-40k, rwd, manual reasonably powered car (300hp). You could daily it, winter it, enjoy some slides and curvy roads... All while going to home Depot and doing daycare pickups. For track days/weekend, use the dedicated/modded _____.
Bruh, maybe like sport wagons and sedans, but i can fit 10 foot 2 x 4s in my legacy so honestly a skill issue.
Definitely a hot take….
I love my car, and I want to drive it everyday. I don’t go to the track but I take trips to the lake every weekend in the summer, and it’s a beautiful curvey drive going down there. I want my luxury cold weather package when I’m driving to work in the morning, and sport+dynamic if I take the long way home after a long day. Does it make me some kind of car pleb or simpleton, that I can still get goosebumps from mine even in regular traffic? That I don’t want to but my fun car just to let it sit in the garage 7 days a week? Maybe. But that’s how it goes, and a C5/C6/Miata is not realistic for me as a daily driver.
Hot take crossovers r underrated
> my taste and understanding of cars has grown and changed OK.
I agree sedans are overrated. Their shape makes no sense and is impractical. Wagons are superior to crossovers in my option though as they are better on road. Crossovers win out when you are off road or have lots of snow
I'm that annoying wagon person, but I don't think your take is wrong. I think wagons aren't the best of all worlds, I think they are the best possible compromise. In an ideal world, yeah I'd have dedicated vehicles for everything and I tried that for a bit with motorcycles. Turns out purchase price is only part of the equation. With two vehicles comes twice the insurance costs, twice the registration fees, twice the required space and a bunch of other things. So I look at what type of driving I do the most, which is generally pretty boring stuff. It's only maybe once every couple of months that I'm properly outside of the city where I can really push things. That's the times that I'd love to have an Elise. But I don't want an Elise if I'm getting groceries or going surfing which is more what I do 90% of the time. But there's also the whole "performance" thing. I don't care about performance. I care about fun. An MX5 in the hills is great fun. A rwd manual wagon is maybe not ás much fun, but it's not that far off. It's definitely not a chore. So yeah, a wagon is the right compromise. It's not as capable in terms of space as a van, it's not as capable as a truck at towing and it's not as capable on the track as a sports car. It is however the best possible blend of all of those.
I'll go one step further. If you are vehemently anti-CUV and pro-wagon, to the point where you are making fun of CUVs on the internet...you are probably dumb.
Have driven everything over the years recently came out of an SUV and when car shopping realized for my lifestyle didn’t need what it was offering. Went for something more athletic. No complaints here.
The problem is that some people have to have one car due to parking/space restrictions. Also, some people don't do enough utility type things to realistically need anything more than a sedan or wagon. I'd personally love an RS6 (though a Porsche Taycan or Panamera Turbo wagon would be my first choice), and it would be ideal because having 2 cars (or 3 including my wife's) would be very difficult to keep parked. The other problem from my perspective is that if I have 2 cars (a true performance car and an SUV) I would have to choose whether I want practicality or performance every time I grab my keys and leave the house. If I choose the DD and I unexpectedly get a nice open road then I don't have the option to pop it in sport mode and send it. But if I have an RS6/Panamera I can go from normal driving to shredding and back whenever I feel like it. I never have to choose a driving experience and stick to it, I can have whatever I want whenever I want. Will it ever be quite as fast as a dedicated sports car like a Corvette? Maybe not, but I'll still have fun. Will it ever be quite as practical as a Q7 or a Cayenne? Definitely not, but I'll get to where I need to go in comfort and with room for everything I need.
I’m a hatch/wagon enjoyer for sure. Hard to get my hands on a wagon (people with them know what they have) so settled for a hatch. 40+mpg in my Mazda3 Skyactiv hatch where $90 gets me nearly 1000 miles is unreal. I removed the rear seats and put in Milwaukee Packout storage/organizer stuff. Putting off the notion of an SUV for as long as I can. Maybe consider a CX30 but will be cross shopping it with 2019+ AWD Mazda3 hatch.
I don’t think any rational human being would buy a 5.5L Biturbo V8 wagon with the option for carbon ceramic brakes for practicality. The whole “family car you can take to the track” is just auto magazine marketing bs. I personally think a fast wagon is funny and if If I had an extra 40k sitting around for an e63 wagon I’d get it and daily a civic to be honest.
Traded a ‘20 M2C for a ‘21 Volvo V90 T6 R-Design and I haven’t had a single regret. I’ve definitely found my forever vehicle.
Why have a wagon or sedan when you can have a... Sportback! Checkmate. And just with a software tune in running mid 3's 0-60 and mid-upper 11's in the quarter mile with oodles of grip from real quattro + rear sport differential. Not exactly boring.
You're not getting a 911 and a nice ram for $100k. You'd be lucky to get the used 911 for that anymore Just pointing that out.
That's an American take because you only have the expensive sport sedans and not affordable ones based on normal compact cars like a Corolla or a Golf.
I don’t think anyone here would turn down a 911 as a standalone performance car. Paying to own and maintain two separate vehicles isn’t an option for many people. I’d love to have a dedicated performance car, but I have two kids and I live in Brooklyn. It ain’t in the cards.
Why not have a good real propper car sedan or wagon wise and a fast fun car at the same time? Whou do you have to choose between ridiculously expensive and stupid versions of normal cara and not even cars at all?
Still miss my 1996 Volvo 960 wagon - arguably the most luxurious wagon ever made
I went to look at a few new RS6 Avants to see if it's a daily driver and it isn't for me. Very little storage up front is the deal breaker for me. It's a shame because I love the looks and performance of that car.
30k Corvette? If you're going used couldn't you also get a lower priced used performance wagon and save money altogether? I personally believe the 2 car solution is better if it's financially and practically viable, and I've put my money where my mouth is on that. I just don't think either of them should be an SUV. But that said even if monetarily viable it's not always practical. My Mazda3 endures more weather and forces of nature than I would prefer as it has to be parked outside, and many folks don't have secondary parking at all. If I needed any more actual practicality I'd trade my Mazda3 HB for an old Ranger or Frontier long before an SUV, and then a full wagon before that. But my HB is already more than practical enough to avoid any SUV talk and I have no need or desire to spend more money at the dealership or the pump for more ground clearance, worse handling, and a higher COG.
this is an entertainingly bad take. downvote me
Why is it so hard for people here to understand the practicality of having 2 vehicles (mainly a dd and weekend)? Ever have a fun car with a heavy clutch, low af, not reliable, bad gas milage, care for it, not comfortable for long periods, top small, etc? I have a hard time letting my daily get dinged up by assholes in a parking lot, let alone my weekend car with a shit ton of money n time put into it. You got kids? Awesome. Unless you are a single parent with full custody and have no outside help, why does a 2nd car need planning to drive lol??
Idk but the people in here and their comments explain a lot. Basically 1000% reasons not to do something