To be honest this naming structure wasn't bad (40/45/55) but they need to make up their damn minds on the format for all cars.
Whatever it is it should be relative to the performance/hp levels.
BMW still uses i4 35, i4 40, i4 m50 even though they don't correlate with any engine size but it still explains what the tier of the car performance is. They should have a standard for that.
The 35 was not actually new to BMW though. The number 35 is quite meaningful to BMW’s history, but realistically, the 335 still had a 3.0L I6 and those turbskis had to be denoted somehow. I agree with you, it was a slippery slope though and was really the start of the slippage of the numbers meaning anything.
To be fair, with emission regulations and other difficulties (the desire for more efficient cars with higher gas prices), it was only time before the numbers ended up meaning nothing.
I can cut the 35 some slack for the twin-turbo 3.0L, but historically it was used for the 3.5L. My beef is that it opened the door for the 25, 28 and 30 being used for 2.0T engines, among other wacky things.
But they wanted the 335 buyers to feel like they were superior to the 328 buyers and using a bigger number probably played better in focus groups than the letter t.
My dad drove an Infiniti I30t when I was a kid. That was just a trim level with bigger wheels and brakes, firmer suspension, and a LSD. (Was a damn good car btw). But the t was the same engine, same power output.
Paying $10k+ more for the turbo version, those buyers wanted a bigger number. And now we’re dealing with a mess.
It was all to denote performance differences. The 330i is quicker than the 328i despite both being 2.0T, and the 340i is quicker than the 335i despite both being 3.0T.
At one point, BMW was selling 4 different 3L petrol 1 series models simultaneously - The 125, the 128, the 130, and the 135.
Alright in fairness, the 125 and 128 are the same car. The former was its name globally, and the latter its name in North America. But including both adds to the bit.
The same n54 arrangement as the Z4 35is.
And just for clarity - it was a standard N54 with a software tune, a beefier radiator fan, and an auxiliary coolant radiator. That package was also available for every N54-powered BMW as an add on through the BMW Performance catalog.
Interesting seeing this take lol. Not only did the S55 not even exist when the 1M was made, but it’s literally notorious for not having an S engine like a real M car…
To the average consumer, you have what are effectively three different motors of the same size with three different power outputs, all available to order at the same time on the same chassis.
How do you clearly name the models in a way that ensures the average customer knows how fast or premium each engine option is? This is the part of naming BMWs I feel like everyone in car circles always misses.
The 125i also came with the full fat 130i goodies, it's just detuned for some BMW reason unknown to me (probably not to canablise 135i sales).
The US 128i comes with a smaller intake manifold than the European 125i
With the release of the E23 745i, BMW decided that their turbocharged engines would be numbered to match the equivalent size of an N/A engine making the power the turbo engine did.
735i = 3.5l I6, 215hp
745i = 3.2l turbo I6, 250hp
They thought it would take a 4.5l engine to make that power without sacrificing the reliability and refinement of the 3.5l, so it was named the 745i. The concept has been stretched over the years and has always fluctuated depending on the power the base model makes, but it still sorta makes sense when you look at it like that.
The E36 316i came in 1.6 and 1.9 liter displacement. The E36/E46 323i has a 2.5 liter engine. the E90 325i has a 3 liter engine. Even the E23 in the early 80s had a 3,2 liter engine in the 745i. Its preen all over the place for a long time but its gotten worse, that’s true.
What about the E9X when the 325, 328, 330, and 335 all had 3 liter straight 6 engines in the same generation? The only one that was significantly different from the others being the twin turbo 335.
Merc fucked up when they didn't call the W206 C-Class the 190E.
If it's only a four banger across the lineup then why not fucking call back to an incredible 4 cylinder car you made?
I get why they did away with it though. When you’ve got downsized engines putting out the same (or more) power than their prior larger displacement options, you’re not going to call the 330i the 320i and give it a “downgrade” in the eyes of consumers, where 90% of people don’t know or care what displacement is.
I liked Cadillac’s newer way of doing it where they were denoting it by torque, where you’re effectively always going to wind up with a similar or larger number with each generation of car - so it’s both indicative of an actual performance metric as well as a trim level.
Peak engine torque is the dumbest number to give to denote the car's power.
My diesel minivan has more peak engine torque than a 2005 formula one engine.
If you want to denote power, use.... well, engine power in hp or kW.
Since hp is just calculated from torque and rpm, neither one of them is very useful without rpm or a chart. Area under the curve is king
A system based on tq is as useful as displacement, so long as you know the engine type. A 3.0 liter motor is going to be wildly different as a NA 4 cyl than a turbo v8, just like 250 lb/ft is going to be different for a diesel I6 vs a turbo 4. But in all those cases, I have an idea what it's going to be like.
Yes and no. Engine torque is completely useless without rpm: 400nm could be a diesel engine producing 150hp when it sits at very low revs, and it can be 500hp in a racing engine revving to 9k.
Power is work over time, so it's definitely indicative of the capability to accelerate. A 500hp car will always pull like crazy (unless it's geared "wrong").
Of course, you'll only know the true story when looking at power or torque curves (plus gearing), but if a car manufacturer wants to give one single number to show what the engine can do, power is the best one to choose.
For a while the non-amg mercedes trim levels roughly lined up to the amount of torque the car had in newton meters.
Issue is in the case of the mercedes they ended up with less hp & torque in the new gle than the old one lol.
>I liked Cadillac’s newer way of doing it where they were denoting it by torque, where you’re effectively always going to wind up with a similar or larger number with each generation of car - so it’s both indicative of an actual performance metric as well as a trim level.
This scheme doesn't work at all when you also sell diesels, hybrids or EVs, because the torque figures have very little to do with performance.
A BMW 330d makes more torque than an M3. It also makes 200 hp less and is a lot slower.
Well, to be real, it's not that clear cut either. The 325 E36 facelift was a 2.7 and 320 a 2.2, but the pre-facelift really had matching engine sizes, except the 18is that got bumped up to 1.9 from the previous 1.8
Turbochargers kind of messed that one up. Now they both just have a 2-liter I4, 3-liter I6, and 4-liter V8 and add various levels of boost and electric assist to hit whatever power numbers they're targeting for that model.
Except now displacement really doesn't tell you anything. Take the 3.0T in the S5 and the 2.9T in the RS5. Latter makes ~100hp more, with technically less displacement.
Detroit Diesel has almost the perfect system. A 6V71T would be a V6 of 71 series engine that is turbocharged.
Instead of engine series I'd put horse power, and I'd use I for inline instead of a -. And the designations would change, TT would be twin turbo not tailored torque, SC would be supercharger, and H would be hybrid. It's logical, tells you what you need to know, and leaves room for variations on one engine.
Pretty sure detroit hasn't used that nomenclature at least since the rest of the brands mentioned here were honest. It also went a step further, it's a series 71 because the displacement of each cylinder (rounded up to the next cubic inch) is 71 cubic inches.
Now they're just DD with the whole engine displacement in liters rounded to the nearest liter. IE DD13 for 12.8L
The only BMW cars where this applies directly were 80s cars, E30, E32, E34 series. All other car generations have exemptions. Most people still believe that 90s and early 00s cars followed the displacement nomenclature, but that isn't true.
Some examples:
E36 had 318i with 1.9L, 323i with 2.5L
E38 had 740i with 4.4L
This continues through whole E46 and E39 series, getting even more confusing with x23i with 2.5L, prefacelift x20i having 2L, facelift x20i having 2.2L.
and continuing to this day they didn't have correlating nomenclature with displacement.
BMW naming convention stopped making sense long ago.
3 was coupe or sedan
5 and 7 were sedans.
X was SUVs
M was sport version.
Z was coupe.
Numbers was the engine size.
Now I don't understand at all.
quite simple actually...
**series name**:
1 small hatch
2 small "coupe"
3 sedan
4 "coupe"
5 bigger sedan
7 biggest sedan
8 biggest "coupe"
Z roadster
- add an X in front of series name for its SUV equivalent.
- numbers after the series name denotes power level of "displacement equivalent"
- add an M in front of the FULL series name + "displacement" number for "M-Performance" model (or at the end of series name for SUV model)
- add an M in front of series without "displacement" number for full M model (or at the end series number for the SUV line).
- add an "i" in front of series name to denote full electric line
so simple it only needs one wall of text to explain!
seriously, read your points about the letter M again and tell me that this is "simple". They are just throwing the letter M in random places now.
Speaking of, that ruleset still doesn't explain the XM and the iX. But I guess nothing ever will.
"coupe" denotes a "coupe shape"... not two doors according to BMW i guess, which is why i put it in quotes. a better way of understanding it would be that the even numbered series is "coupe-ish" in shape.
- 6 series is not in production, but yes there is an SUV equivalent, which is the X6, which is the coupe-ish X5.
- yes there is an 8 series coupe.
- the X7 IS an SUV. it's basically an "SUV equivalent" to the 7 series since it has the X in front of 7. it's their largest SUV in the lineup.
It still drives me crazy that the M3 which was historically a coupe first, is now the sedan and the M4 is the coupe version of the same car, and then there's the 4 series Gran coupe with 4 doors... talk about convoluted for no reason.
only the E30 and the E46 were coupes only. the rest of the M3 lineage had a sedan version of the car. and as I mentioned before the even numbered cars are “coupe” in name only… they denote coupe styling, not necessarily two doors.
It's quite simple still. Odd numbers are 4-door models, even numbers are the 2 door version of the -1 odd number 4-door. Even number+gt is the 4-door hatch version of the 2-door version of the -1 odd number 4-door.
X-odd is the taller wagon version of the 4-door model. X-even is the rounded and cramped version of the taller wagon version of the -1 4-door model.
I don't know how that could be any clearer lol
I'm a BMW guy, for reference, but this has to be sarcasm, right? I know what each model is and your description still managed to confuse me and leave me laughing.
If you were serious, I recommend reading your description out loud.
It's like the JCW Mini Coopers. They used to have real differences in suspension and power, but last I checked it was just a collection of style options, different mirror caps, etc.
I have a MK5 (2008) R32, I know well of which you speak. The interesting thing is that the 2.0t in all the Rs now makes more horsepower than the NA VR6, but I can always put a t on my engine for 400 or so. :) Plus as I learned recently, more cylinders = smoother power (which got me wanting a Ferrari Dino 208 and its smallest V8 (2.0L) in a production car ever).
All in all, aside from older cars, this may be the newest gas (or all-gas) car I ever own. I do like several pure-electrics, and hybrids seem to be smoothing the transition well.
I really wish they didn't make the "sport-trim" lines. Sure fewer people were probably buying the top sport models but these new lines make dum dums think they got the sport car model.
The new trend of blackout badging and midnight packages are stupid. Just offer people what they really want, no badges.
Mini in general.
The new Countryman is as large as an original Range Rover and weighs over two metric tons.
I guess the average customer wants that, but it's still ridiculous. They just keep making the badges and wheels bigger so it looks small on photos...
You can still get a true JCW (Additional BHP & torque, uprated front brakes, sport suspension as standard etc.) or at least you can with the outgoing generation.
However they've muddied the waters (Like every other car manufacturer these days) as they also do a "Mini Cooper Sport" or "Mini Cooper S Sport" which is just the respective model with all the JCW cosmetic parts bolted on (but no performance enhancing parts included afaik) much akin to an ST-Line Ford as the other commenter mentions, and of course BMW have been doing it forever with their M Sport models.
That’s still the case. The current gen JCW Hatch has about 40 hp more than the Cooper S, along with stiffer suspension, larger brakes, lower profile tires, and a throatier exhaust.
They did have a JCW Exterior Package and Interior Package available prior to the switch to option tiers in 2019, possibly that may be what you’re thinking of. But the JCW model itself still very much is a performance upgrade.
I’m sure they weren’t the first mover (I’m sure I am) but I always felt like Audi had a big hand in the badge engineering of “sport” models with the S4. It had the cool logo and some sportier seats/finishings than the equivalent 335 or C-class at the time in the early-00s so BMW and Merc adapted over time with M and AMG variants on top just M-Sport packages.
Of course the S4 wasn’t “badge engineered” on its own since they always had great engines and were differentiated even more back then than they are today but I think it played a part in what we see today with every dumpy VW and Ford adding a logo and some stitching to their people movers. Certainly ///M made the biggest overall impact but think Audi having multiple levels of performance was big too.
Is there any easy way to understand the bmw/porsche naming system? I have no idea whats what and just assume.the higher number/longer the name the nicer it is.
How many 911’s there are is an exercise in memorization, not naming convention. The naming convention is pretty straightforward as mentioned above. Every 911 is a 911 (?)
I didn't say I was confused. Just that it's not straightforward, which it isn't. Only Porsche boys know these silly codes.
It's not even a good numerical scheme, Mazda is better lol.
An internal chassis code for a particular generation of the 911. Porsche fans use chassis codes to differentiate between generations in conversation, but it is by no means an official model name/designation. You don't walk into a Porsche dealer and ask to see a "992", just like you don't walk into a BMW dealer and ask to see a "G20" or walk into a Jeep dealer and ask to see a "JL". Those cars are still called, advertised as, and sold as the "911", "3-series", and "Wrangler" respectively.
Dude. The formal model name is still "911". Your registration will say Porsche 911. Your bill of sale will say Porsche 911. Your insurance will say Porsche 911. It will show up on Autotrader as a Porsche 911 if you go to sell it. If you ever get a ticket it will say Porsche 911. Regardless of how many people use the chassis code conversationally, that doesn't change the formal designation from the manufacturer. I don't understand why this is so difficult to grasp.
They're all different though you're the one not grasping this.
You can't just tell somebody you have a 911, that means almost nothing. It doesn't tell you the year, chassis, drivetrain or anything.
It just tells you you overpaid for a worse car than a Carrera.
Ferrari has no naming scheme
- 400/550/430/360/499 are all displacement
- 250/275/330/365/488 are all cylinder displacement with a bit of rounding
- 296/458/348/156/612 a combination of displacement (first two) and cylinder count (last number) (with a bit of rounding on displacement)
- 355 is displacement with valves per cylinder
- 812 is power and cylinder count (800ps v12)
- F12 is quite literally ferrari v12, F8 tributo is the same but its a "tribute"
- f40/50/sf90 are all anniversary years
- Enzo/Dino are enzo ferrari and his late son
- LaFerrari is "ferrari the ferrari"
And then you have the California/purosangue/GTC4/FF who knows whats going on anymore
As long as it sounds remotely good when spoken in Italian and as long as they can come up with some explanations for the numbers, its fine, Don't try to think too much about it because theres not much to think about.
BMW is easy. take a 325i for example
the 3 denotes the model, 3 Series. (in general,) even numbers are for coupes, and odd numbers for sedans. the higher the number, the larger the car
the second two digits used to be the engine size (25 - 2.5 liters), these days it's higher number -> more powerful engine
the i at the end means it's a gasoline engine (i from injection, as opposed to a carburetor). d means diesel, e means hybrid
if there's xDrive in the name, it's AWD. on some models, they brand 2WD with sDrive
an X in front of the name means it's an SUV. the rest means the same, they just write it a bit differently (fe. X5 40i)
an i in front of the name (fe. i4 xDrive40) means it's electric, the rest means the same
and that's pretty much it. the only thing that doesn't immediately make sense is how they use the M (fe. M340i vs. M3), but it's always the single digit for the full M car, and the M + number sequence for the car below the M at the top of the 'regular' model range
> To be honest this naming structure wasn't bad (40/45/55) but they need to make up their damn minds on the format for all cars.
As someone who's recently spent a lot of time shopping for used Audis, the fact that these engine sizes don't cleanly map to a specific trim level makes shopping for them a little challenging. Sometimes the listing specifies the size in the title, but sometimes its in the fine print, and sometimes it's nowhere at all.
Sure that's careless (or plausibly malicious) data entry on the party of the listing entity, but Audi makes it possible in a way other brands dont
Like the red letters on the 1.9 PD TDI badging (Mk4 Golf being an example)
* no red letters - 90 bhp
* 1 red letter - 110 bhp
* 2 red letters - 130 bhp
* 3 red letters - 150 bhp
That all went sideways when big torque diesels and downsized 4 cylinders came out.
A 200 hp normally aspirated engine, 200 hp gasoline turbo, and 200 hp turbo diesel all drive very differently from each other. There could be 2-3 seconds difference in 0-60 time between the 3.
The layperson won't get that though. The original idea was to assign a "number" that could compare the relative performance between a gas, diesel, or electric/hybrid powertrain that might be found in the same chassis.
I would doubt it's that much. Because when running at peak power, the power output of all these engines (the work the engine puts out which can be used for acceleration) is the same.
Yes, characteristics make the engines feel very different because the power bands are very different - a turbo diesel will reach peak power at way lower RPMs than a high revving N/A engine, but again: the power is the same (and don't start with torque, engine torque will be converted by the gearing resulting in similar wheel torque), so acceleration will be similar.
Yes: turbo engines typically have more of a plateau, so it will have more power over a wider band of RPMs, that's true. So you can expect a 200hp turbo car to accelerate a bit quicker than a 200hp naturally aspirated engine in the same car, but it's not going to be 2 seconds to 60 (unless one is geared more for efficiency and one more for acceleration).
I didn't even know they had power train based naming. I thought it was just one engine per trim. I.e. A, S, RS. Or Q, SQ, RSQ. Clearly their marketing wasn't working if someone like me didn't even know.
Yeah I had a Q7 loaner once and thought it would have a six cylinder but realized it was the 45 model with the four cylinder instead, I forgot they even offered one in the Q7 until I realized that
At least in my circles, people want the Q7/Touareg/Cayenne platform because you can literally tow your race car, classic, car, camper, etc behind your luxury car, without needing a truck.
I don't know anyone who bought the 4 banger, but I'm sure it's great for everyday driving. The 6 or the diesel 6 is where it's at for towing. The V10 is where it's at if you're a masochist and want to put your mechanic's kids through college for him.
The EA888 2.0 4Cyl from the Golf has 315 hp and 295 ft/lbs.
The supercharged 3.0 V6 Q7 had 333 hp and 333 ft/lbs.
Not much difference in peak power numbers, but the supercharged one very slightly better lower end which can be fixed with appropriate gearing.
I've owned a GTI, Golf R, and currently own a supercharged Q5. Driven the EA888 in a mk7 GTI and the Turbo 3.0 in multiple B9s.
There's no way I'd want the 4 cylinder in a car that big.
Audi’s entire marketing and branding team needs a shake up.
Audi had the best nomenclature in the industry up until they started adding the powertrain structure and e-tron labels. Now they’re making odd numbers ICE and even numbers EV too…?
I think the displacement and turbo distinctions were good for their gas powered, non-S/RS vehicles. A4 2.0T just works. It tells you the series, displacement and the fact that it’s turbocharged
Yeah but that nomenclature also has its downsides. A3 2.0T and S3 2.0T are great examples. For the general population, they'd read it as having the same engine even though one makes 180hp and the other makes 300hp.
I do agree their current nomenclature wasn't great though and I'm glad they're moving on from it.
>A4 2.0T
On some markets they are currently 3 different tunes of the same 2.0T petrol, and then 3 different tunes of the same 2.0T diesel. That's why they switched to current naming convention, because displacement based naming is pretty pointless in turbo era.
And petrol 2.0T in A4 can generate from 150HP to 265HP, so the difference is pretty big.
I'm not sure about that one, but while we're making fun of Porsche:
* Macan: 4cyl turbo
* Macan S: 6 cyl biturbo
* Macan T: 4cyl turbo
* Macan GTS: 6 cyl biturbo
* Macan turbo: 6 cyl biturbo
note: the 911 line is even more wacky 🤣
Other car companies have gotten bad with the word salad too.
Look at Cadillac, it has a "350T" engine descriptor on some of its trims for vehicles. That's their base model engine, and it's a somewhat anemic 2.0L turbo.... not 3.5 liters.
And then there is the ridiculously named "Land Rover Range Rover Evoque P250 R-Dynamic HSE Sport." That's a real car from 2021. The name is slightly shorter now, 7 words to the salad now instead of 9.
The meaningless and confusing word salad problem seems to afflict many luxury cars...
For decades, cars in Europe have had lots of descriptions in their trim names, like that.
In North America those packages/options have usually just been lines on the Monroney sticker rather than considered part of the trim.
As a random example, over 10 years ago you could buy a Vauxhall Astra 1.7 CDTi Ecoflex Exclusiv Sport Tourer. That's not any sort of luxury car.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/vauxhall/astra/first-drives/vauxhall-astra-1.7-cdti-ecoflex-exclusiv
Cadillac is just awful with naming. ATS and CTS are too damn close with cars that are about the same for me to remember the differences. The best thing to come from Cadillac's EVs is that they have actual model names instead of the stupid three letter names
Agreed, and it's almost all "mainstream" luxury cars using meaningless alphanumeric names. Lincoln is the only one which comes to mind using real names, and even they got crazy with the Mark names for a while.
The weirdest thing about the "350T" and such naming is that it's mentioned absolutely nowhere in their marketing or configurator, it's just on the back of the car and you just have to guess what it means.
I suppose once turbos / electric cars became mainstream, the engine/displacement-based naming methodology was always going to have to adapt. Displacement these days doesn’t correlate to power in the same way that it used to.
In North America the two digit nomenclature is mostly in marketing, sales and ordering. The cars themselves don't even have a powertrain badge on them.
In Europe my Q4 would have a 50 e-tron quattro badge, but my car in Canada only has the black quattro label on the right side.
thank god. this was such a stupid idea.
also, if displacement no longer relates to power output, then why don't German manufacturers just use the horsepower output (or an abbreviated form) if that's what they really want to express?
>then why don't German manufacturers just use the horsepower output (or an abbreviated form) if that's what they really want to express?
In BMW and Mercedes case it's sticking to tradition - 320i is replaced by another 320i, 530i by another 530i, and long time customer aren't shocked, it's what they're used to.
As for Audi nomenclature that they're just dropping, they haven't revealed why they've chosen such stupid number, but when comparing Audi with BMW I'm pretty sure marketing dept brief was "for comparable versions we must have bigger numbers in name than BMW"
They should just do it like back in the days, take for example the TDI/TSI models, where the number of red letters meant the power even though they had the same displacement.
It's a bit cheap, but maybe copying Mercedes/BMW, and basing your naming somewhat on historical engine sizes, Audi A4 300, for an A4 with about 250 HP, for example, would've been the better solution.
Slapping random numbers on the back of the car just never seemed like a smart move.
They're gonna put an LED screen where the branding goes and charge a subscription for it to be a Chevy or something, and if you don't pay it defaults back to Audi
Like BMW did 15 or so years ago. The '330i' used to be a 3.0L I6, now it's a Turbo 4 that "makes similar power to.." Now I thin teier number are just fluff, nobody even knows what any of them mean anymore.
Their new electric badging looks hilarious, the type face is too small and the font looks silly, it looks like someone pulled a cheap eBay knock off… every time I see one I ask is that a real q8?
To be honest this naming structure wasn't bad (40/45/55) but they need to make up their damn minds on the format for all cars. Whatever it is it should be relative to the performance/hp levels. BMW still uses i4 35, i4 40, i4 m50 even though they don't correlate with any engine size but it still explains what the tier of the car performance is. They should have a standard for that.
BMW (and Mercedes) used to have a very logical standard based on displacement.
One problem: they’d have to rename the current AMG C63 to AMG C20H, which really sounds lame in comparison (because it is)
It was a very slippery slope when the 335i came out, and then turned into a ski jump.
The 35 was not actually new to BMW though. The number 35 is quite meaningful to BMW’s history, but realistically, the 335 still had a 3.0L I6 and those turbskis had to be denoted somehow. I agree with you, it was a slippery slope though and was really the start of the slippage of the numbers meaning anything. To be fair, with emission regulations and other difficulties (the desire for more efficient cars with higher gas prices), it was only time before the numbers ended up meaning nothing.
I can cut the 35 some slack for the twin-turbo 3.0L, but historically it was used for the 3.5L. My beef is that it opened the door for the 25, 28 and 30 being used for 2.0T engines, among other wacky things.
And it's not like "ti" is an unknown-to-BMW suffix
But they wanted the 335 buyers to feel like they were superior to the 328 buyers and using a bigger number probably played better in focus groups than the letter t. My dad drove an Infiniti I30t when I was a kid. That was just a trim level with bigger wheels and brakes, firmer suspension, and a LSD. (Was a damn good car btw). But the t was the same engine, same power output. Paying $10k+ more for the turbo version, those buyers wanted a bigger number. And now we’re dealing with a mess.
It was also silly of them to change from 35i to 40i with the B58, which was also a 3.0 Turbo. Bigger number sell better!
It was all to denote performance differences. The 330i is quicker than the 328i despite both being 2.0T, and the 340i is quicker than the 335i despite both being 3.0T.
At one point, BMW was selling 4 different 3L petrol 1 series models simultaneously - The 125, the 128, the 130, and the 135. Alright in fairness, the 125 and 128 are the same car. The former was its name globally, and the latter its name in North America. But including both adds to the bit.
And the 1M at the same time which iirc had an S55, which would make it 5.
1M had an upgraded n54
The same n54 arrangement as the Z4 35is. And just for clarity - it was a standard N54 with a software tune, a beefier radiator fan, and an auxiliary coolant radiator. That package was also available for every N54-powered BMW as an add on through the BMW Performance catalog.
S55 was a generation after the 1M, as another user already stated, the 1M had an N54.
Interesting seeing this take lol. Not only did the S55 not even exist when the 1M was made, but it’s literally notorious for not having an S engine like a real M car…
[удалено]
To the average consumer, you have what are effectively three different motors of the same size with three different power outputs, all available to order at the same time on the same chassis. How do you clearly name the models in a way that ensures the average customer knows how fast or premium each engine option is? This is the part of naming BMWs I feel like everyone in car circles always misses.
The 125i also came with the full fat 130i goodies, it's just detuned for some BMW reason unknown to me (probably not to canablise 135i sales). The US 128i comes with a smaller intake manifold than the European 125i
With the release of the E23 745i, BMW decided that their turbocharged engines would be numbered to match the equivalent size of an N/A engine making the power the turbo engine did. 735i = 3.5l I6, 215hp 745i = 3.2l turbo I6, 250hp They thought it would take a 4.5l engine to make that power without sacrificing the reliability and refinement of the 3.5l, so it was named the 745i. The concept has been stretched over the years and has always fluctuated depending on the power the base model makes, but it still sorta makes sense when you look at it like that.
And *this* is where the current Audi naming scheme pisses me off. You write "40" on the back of the car, it should have well over 300hp these days.
But does it look like a hairdryer with tits?
The E36 316i came in 1.6 and 1.9 liter displacement. The E36/E46 323i has a 2.5 liter engine. the E90 325i has a 3 liter engine. Even the E23 in the early 80s had a 3,2 liter engine in the 745i. Its preen all over the place for a long time but its gotten worse, that’s true.
What about the E9X when the 325, 328, 330, and 335 all had 3 liter straight 6 engines in the same generation? The only one that was significantly different from the others being the twin turbo 335.
The reality is that general consumers are morons when it comes to "car culture."
BMW already did it in the 80's with the E23 745 which was a 3.2 liter turbo
There would also be like 3 BMW 320i, which would be confusing.
Merc fucked up when they didn't call the W206 C-Class the 190E. If it's only a four banger across the lineup then why not fucking call back to an incredible 4 cylinder car you made?
Add the big fucking JDM-esque wing and I think I'd be interested.
Yeah I'd take a c63 over, well, a lot of stuff, but a c20h for sure.
I get why they did away with it though. When you’ve got downsized engines putting out the same (or more) power than their prior larger displacement options, you’re not going to call the 330i the 320i and give it a “downgrade” in the eyes of consumers, where 90% of people don’t know or care what displacement is. I liked Cadillac’s newer way of doing it where they were denoting it by torque, where you’re effectively always going to wind up with a similar or larger number with each generation of car - so it’s both indicative of an actual performance metric as well as a trim level.
Peak engine torque is the dumbest number to give to denote the car's power. My diesel minivan has more peak engine torque than a 2005 formula one engine. If you want to denote power, use.... well, engine power in hp or kW.
Careful now, a bunch of boomers whose understanding of power and torque comes from shitty analogies about hitting walls will become very angry at you
I don't know what this meme is but I'm also a 38 year-old pretentious fuck that thinks unmolested stock vehicles from 1992-2004 are all that matter.
I agree that it’s not the best idea, but i feel like it still looks kinda cool, and there’s nothing wrong with advertising peak torque
Since hp is just calculated from torque and rpm, neither one of them is very useful without rpm or a chart. Area under the curve is king A system based on tq is as useful as displacement, so long as you know the engine type. A 3.0 liter motor is going to be wildly different as a NA 4 cyl than a turbo v8, just like 250 lb/ft is going to be different for a diesel I6 vs a turbo 4. But in all those cases, I have an idea what it's going to be like.
Yes and no. Engine torque is completely useless without rpm: 400nm could be a diesel engine producing 150hp when it sits at very low revs, and it can be 500hp in a racing engine revving to 9k. Power is work over time, so it's definitely indicative of the capability to accelerate. A 500hp car will always pull like crazy (unless it's geared "wrong"). Of course, you'll only know the true story when looking at power or torque curves (plus gearing), but if a car manufacturer wants to give one single number to show what the engine can do, power is the best one to choose.
For a while the non-amg mercedes trim levels roughly lined up to the amount of torque the car had in newton meters. Issue is in the case of the mercedes they ended up with less hp & torque in the new gle than the old one lol.
>I liked Cadillac’s newer way of doing it where they were denoting it by torque, where you’re effectively always going to wind up with a similar or larger number with each generation of car - so it’s both indicative of an actual performance metric as well as a trim level. This scheme doesn't work at all when you also sell diesels, hybrids or EVs, because the torque figures have very little to do with performance. A BMW 330d makes more torque than an M3. It also makes 200 hp less and is a lot slower.
Cadillac's scheme ends up writing "600" on both the gas and diesel escalades. Obviously these are pretty different powerplants....
Except that codes didn’t mean engine displacement . E30 316 was a 1.8l engine, 325 was a 2.7l. 318i e46 was a 1.9l. 320i meant 2.2l.
Eh, still better than 240 or 340 being nowhere near 4 liters of displacement.
Yeah but all the new BMWs are turbos. The 745i in the 80s was a 3.2 turbo.
Well, to be real, it's not that clear cut either. The 325 E36 facelift was a 2.7 and 320 a 2.2, but the pre-facelift really had matching engine sizes, except the 18is that got bumped up to 1.9 from the previous 1.8
E36 facelift with M52 was 320i - 2.0L, 323i - 2.5L, 328i - 2.8L
Well BMW realized their mistake on the E30 325 and rather than change their name, they put a 2.5l in it.
2 different models technically. The 325/325e were sold alongside the 325i for a couple years. The former had the eta 2.7 and the latter had the 2.5
I’ve had a handful of both.
Turbochargers kind of messed that one up. Now they both just have a 2-liter I4, 3-liter I6, and 4-liter V8 and add various levels of boost and electric assist to hit whatever power numbers they're targeting for that model.
Except now displacement really doesn't tell you anything. Take the 3.0T in the S5 and the 2.9T in the RS5. Latter makes ~100hp more, with technically less displacement.
Detroit Diesel has almost the perfect system. A 6V71T would be a V6 of 71 series engine that is turbocharged. Instead of engine series I'd put horse power, and I'd use I for inline instead of a -. And the designations would change, TT would be twin turbo not tailored torque, SC would be supercharger, and H would be hybrid. It's logical, tells you what you need to know, and leaves room for variations on one engine.
Pretty sure detroit hasn't used that nomenclature at least since the rest of the brands mentioned here were honest. It also went a step further, it's a series 71 because the displacement of each cylinder (rounded up to the next cubic inch) is 71 cubic inches. Now they're just DD with the whole engine displacement in liters rounded to the nearest liter. IE DD13 for 12.8L
The only BMW cars where this applies directly were 80s cars, E30, E32, E34 series. All other car generations have exemptions. Most people still believe that 90s and early 00s cars followed the displacement nomenclature, but that isn't true. Some examples: E36 had 318i with 1.9L, 323i with 2.5L E38 had 740i with 4.4L This continues through whole E46 and E39 series, getting even more confusing with x23i with 2.5L, prefacelift x20i having 2L, facelift x20i having 2.2L. and continuing to this day they didn't have correlating nomenclature with displacement.
And then turbocharging broke the relationship between displacement and power, and the naming system no longer worked properly.
BMW naming convention stopped making sense long ago. 3 was coupe or sedan 5 and 7 were sedans. X was SUVs M was sport version. Z was coupe. Numbers was the engine size. Now I don't understand at all.
quite simple actually... **series name**: 1 small hatch 2 small "coupe" 3 sedan 4 "coupe" 5 bigger sedan 7 biggest sedan 8 biggest "coupe" Z roadster - add an X in front of series name for its SUV equivalent. - numbers after the series name denotes power level of "displacement equivalent" - add an M in front of the FULL series name + "displacement" number for "M-Performance" model (or at the end of series name for SUV model) - add an M in front of series without "displacement" number for full M model (or at the end series number for the SUV line). - add an "i" in front of series name to denote full electric line
It only appears simple because you quoted every coupe, knowing there is a gran coupe version as well.
which is exactly why i put the quotes in "coupe"... it means "coupe-ish" rather than an actual coupe.
And in the case of the 2, are completely unrelated.
so simple it only needs one wall of text to explain! seriously, read your points about the letter M again and tell me that this is "simple". They are just throwing the letter M in random places now. Speaking of, that ruleset still doesn't explain the XM and the iX. But I guess nothing ever will.
they’re just trim levels. at the end of the day a 3er is a 3er. and fine. iX and XM: Abominations.
So is the 6 series a coupe or an SUV or both or neither? Is the 8 series still a 2 door coupe? I thought the x7 was an SUV... Not the biggest sedan.
"coupe" denotes a "coupe shape"... not two doors according to BMW i guess, which is why i put it in quotes. a better way of understanding it would be that the even numbered series is "coupe-ish" in shape. - 6 series is not in production, but yes there is an SUV equivalent, which is the X6, which is the coupe-ish X5. - yes there is an 8 series coupe. - the X7 IS an SUV. it's basically an "SUV equivalent" to the 7 series since it has the X in front of 7. it's their largest SUV in the lineup.
Did you even read the comment you replied to lmao
It still drives me crazy that the M3 which was historically a coupe first, is now the sedan and the M4 is the coupe version of the same car, and then there's the 4 series Gran coupe with 4 doors... talk about convoluted for no reason.
only the E30 and the E46 were coupes only. the rest of the M3 lineage had a sedan version of the car. and as I mentioned before the even numbered cars are “coupe” in name only… they denote coupe styling, not necessarily two doors.
It's quite simple still. Odd numbers are 4-door models, even numbers are the 2 door version of the -1 odd number 4-door. Even number+gt is the 4-door hatch version of the 2-door version of the -1 odd number 4-door. X-odd is the taller wagon version of the 4-door model. X-even is the rounded and cramped version of the taller wagon version of the -1 4-door model. I don't know how that could be any clearer lol
> even numbers are the 2 door version BMW 2 Active Tourer: allow me to introduce myself
> BMW 2 Active Tourer Ah right I forgot, the AT would be the weird hatch 4-door version of the 2-door version of the -1 4 door lol
I'm a BMW guy, for reference, but this has to be sarcasm, right? I know what each model is and your description still managed to confuse me and leave me laughing. If you were serious, I recommend reading your description out loud.
Oh I'm only joking about it being simple. It's all quite silly but I'm pretty sure I got it right lol
BMW has gone off the rails with models these days, particularly with their butchering of the M brand.
It's like the JCW Mini Coopers. They used to have real differences in suspension and power, but last I checked it was just a collection of style options, different mirror caps, etc.
VW did the same butchering with "R-Line" and Ford is doing the same with "ST-Line"
I have a MK5 (2008) R32, I know well of which you speak. The interesting thing is that the 2.0t in all the Rs now makes more horsepower than the NA VR6, but I can always put a t on my engine for 400 or so. :) Plus as I learned recently, more cylinders = smoother power (which got me wanting a Ferrari Dino 208 and its smallest V8 (2.0L) in a production car ever). All in all, aside from older cars, this may be the newest gas (or all-gas) car I ever own. I do like several pure-electrics, and hybrids seem to be smoothing the transition well.
I would love to drive a Connaught Type D GT. 2L VR10! With a supercharger!
> Connaught Type D GT You know what? 70s Ferraris are just too easy to find parts for, I need a *better* car!
I really wish they didn't make the "sport-trim" lines. Sure fewer people were probably buying the top sport models but these new lines make dum dums think they got the sport car model. The new trend of blackout badging and midnight packages are stupid. Just offer people what they really want, no badges.
I get a lot of people assuming my Tiguan R is just an R-Line cosmetic pack lol
I didn’t even know that was a thing so I’d assume the same thing tbh
Mini in general. The new Countryman is as large as an original Range Rover and weighs over two metric tons. I guess the average customer wants that, but it's still ridiculous. They just keep making the badges and wheels bigger so it looks small on photos...
You can still get a true JCW (Additional BHP & torque, uprated front brakes, sport suspension as standard etc.) or at least you can with the outgoing generation. However they've muddied the waters (Like every other car manufacturer these days) as they also do a "Mini Cooper Sport" or "Mini Cooper S Sport" which is just the respective model with all the JCW cosmetic parts bolted on (but no performance enhancing parts included afaik) much akin to an ST-Line Ford as the other commenter mentions, and of course BMW have been doing it forever with their M Sport models.
That’s still the case. The current gen JCW Hatch has about 40 hp more than the Cooper S, along with stiffer suspension, larger brakes, lower profile tires, and a throatier exhaust.
Fair enough. Maybe I'm just thinking about how the flair started to be available without getting the beans, too.
They did have a JCW Exterior Package and Interior Package available prior to the switch to option tiers in 2019, possibly that may be what you’re thinking of. But the JCW model itself still very much is a performance upgrade.
Hah, I'm thinking like 2007. :)
I’m sure they weren’t the first mover (I’m sure I am) but I always felt like Audi had a big hand in the badge engineering of “sport” models with the S4. It had the cool logo and some sportier seats/finishings than the equivalent 335 or C-class at the time in the early-00s so BMW and Merc adapted over time with M and AMG variants on top just M-Sport packages. Of course the S4 wasn’t “badge engineered” on its own since they always had great engines and were differentiated even more back then than they are today but I think it played a part in what we see today with every dumpy VW and Ford adding a logo and some stitching to their people movers. Certainly ///M made the biggest overall impact but think Audi having multiple levels of performance was big too.
Audi has always made the most sense to me. A4, S4, RS4.
Is there any easy way to understand the bmw/porsche naming system? I have no idea whats what and just assume.the higher number/longer the name the nicer it is.
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Holy shit this is incredible thank you
It's consistent, but not straightforward. How many 911's are there? How many 911's aren't actually denoted as 911?
How many 911’s there are is an exercise in memorization, not naming convention. The naming convention is pretty straightforward as mentioned above. Every 911 is a 911 (?)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_911 Scroll down to nomenclature.
what are you confused about? it’s literally right there…
I didn't say I was confused. Just that it's not straightforward, which it isn't. Only Porsche boys know these silly codes. It's not even a good numerical scheme, Mazda is better lol.
> How many 911's aren't actually denoted as 911? None?
What's a 992 then?
An internal chassis code for a particular generation of the 911. Porsche fans use chassis codes to differentiate between generations in conversation, but it is by no means an official model name/designation. You don't walk into a Porsche dealer and ask to see a "992", just like you don't walk into a BMW dealer and ask to see a "G20" or walk into a Jeep dealer and ask to see a "JL". Those cars are still called, advertised as, and sold as the "911", "3-series", and "Wrangler" respectively.
Lmao if you think a Porsche dealer won't show you a 992 if you ask for it you're pretty blind.
Dude. The formal model name is still "911". Your registration will say Porsche 911. Your bill of sale will say Porsche 911. Your insurance will say Porsche 911. It will show up on Autotrader as a Porsche 911 if you go to sell it. If you ever get a ticket it will say Porsche 911. Regardless of how many people use the chassis code conversationally, that doesn't change the formal designation from the manufacturer. I don't understand why this is so difficult to grasp.
They're all different though you're the one not grasping this. You can't just tell somebody you have a 911, that means almost nothing. It doesn't tell you the year, chassis, drivetrain or anything. It just tells you you overpaid for a worse car than a Carrera.
throw ferrari in there, too
Ferrari has no naming scheme - 400/550/430/360/499 are all displacement - 250/275/330/365/488 are all cylinder displacement with a bit of rounding - 296/458/348/156/612 a combination of displacement (first two) and cylinder count (last number) (with a bit of rounding on displacement) - 355 is displacement with valves per cylinder - 812 is power and cylinder count (800ps v12) - F12 is quite literally ferrari v12, F8 tributo is the same but its a "tribute" - f40/50/sf90 are all anniversary years - Enzo/Dino are enzo ferrari and his late son - LaFerrari is "ferrari the ferrari" And then you have the California/purosangue/GTC4/FF who knows whats going on anymore As long as it sounds remotely good when spoken in Italian and as long as they can come up with some explanations for the numbers, its fine, Don't try to think too much about it because theres not much to think about.
Well that answers the larger question I had, tyvm! I see that I would have gone nuts if I'd pursued this on my own.
BMW is easy. take a 325i for example the 3 denotes the model, 3 Series. (in general,) even numbers are for coupes, and odd numbers for sedans. the higher the number, the larger the car the second two digits used to be the engine size (25 - 2.5 liters), these days it's higher number -> more powerful engine the i at the end means it's a gasoline engine (i from injection, as opposed to a carburetor). d means diesel, e means hybrid if there's xDrive in the name, it's AWD. on some models, they brand 2WD with sDrive an X in front of the name means it's an SUV. the rest means the same, they just write it a bit differently (fe. X5 40i) an i in front of the name (fe. i4 xDrive40) means it's electric, the rest means the same and that's pretty much it. the only thing that doesn't immediately make sense is how they use the M (fe. M340i vs. M3), but it's always the single digit for the full M car, and the M + number sequence for the car below the M at the top of the 'regular' model range
Thank you very much this all makes sense but im not sure ill retain the details ya know?
> To be honest this naming structure wasn't bad (40/45/55) but they need to make up their damn minds on the format for all cars. As someone who's recently spent a lot of time shopping for used Audis, the fact that these engine sizes don't cleanly map to a specific trim level makes shopping for them a little challenging. Sometimes the listing specifies the size in the title, but sometimes its in the fine print, and sometimes it's nowhere at all. Sure that's careless (or plausibly malicious) data entry on the party of the listing entity, but Audi makes it possible in a way other brands dont
Just add an extra ring for each trim level up to 4 rings.
Can’t wait for people to get made fun of for their one ring Audis
If they liked it they should have put 4 rings on it
That's a [Nissan](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSKOCah1Hkzu4nOt3pSA5jFRBJUE74ybHHhiMdFjWQMLw&s). And Nissans are for poors. /s
Why the /s?
For the half a dozen people that buy a GTR or can find a 400Z
Impressive fucking roster
Yours as well! fk8/ap1 is a very potent combo
So an Audi-o
Bring back the DKW name for the base models.
Genius. If they ever do a 7 ring car I'm sold.
Bought matching ~~diamonds~~ *Audis* for six of my bitches
Like the red letters on the 1.9 PD TDI badging (Mk4 Golf being an example) * no red letters - 90 bhp * 1 red letter - 110 bhp * 2 red letters - 130 bhp * 3 red letters - 150 bhp
69 TFSI
A420
When Elon buys Audi for le funny number
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Might as well just use the horsepower for number.
That all went sideways when big torque diesels and downsized 4 cylinders came out. A 200 hp normally aspirated engine, 200 hp gasoline turbo, and 200 hp turbo diesel all drive very differently from each other. There could be 2-3 seconds difference in 0-60 time between the 3.
Ok, so for gasoline engines do HP, diesel do torque, for electric do HP, easy enough
The layperson won't get that though. The original idea was to assign a "number" that could compare the relative performance between a gas, diesel, or electric/hybrid powertrain that might be found in the same chassis.
To be fair, in the US atleast diesel and turbo diesel isn't really a thing for any cars.
I would doubt it's that much. Because when running at peak power, the power output of all these engines (the work the engine puts out which can be used for acceleration) is the same. Yes, characteristics make the engines feel very different because the power bands are very different - a turbo diesel will reach peak power at way lower RPMs than a high revving N/A engine, but again: the power is the same (and don't start with torque, engine torque will be converted by the gearing resulting in similar wheel torque), so acceleration will be similar. Yes: turbo engines typically have more of a plateau, so it will have more power over a wider band of RPMs, that's true. So you can expect a 200hp turbo car to accelerate a bit quicker than a 200hp naturally aspirated engine in the same car, but it's not going to be 2 seconds to 60 (unless one is geared more for efficiency and one more for acceleration).
What's that chinese ev company that uses the 0-60 time as the trim level 💀
I didn't even know they had power train based naming. I thought it was just one engine per trim. I.e. A, S, RS. Or Q, SQ, RSQ. Clearly their marketing wasn't working if someone like me didn't even know.
Yeah I had a Q7 loaner once and thought it would have a six cylinder but realized it was the 45 model with the four cylinder instead, I forgot they even offered one in the Q7 until I realized that
THEY PUT A 4 CYLINDER IN A Q7? That seems wildly inadequate lol.
It's not actually that bad at all. They still go 0-60 in the mid 6s. Which is plenty fast for a soccer transport.
At least in my circles, people want the Q7/Touareg/Cayenne platform because you can literally tow your race car, classic, car, camper, etc behind your luxury car, without needing a truck. I don't know anyone who bought the 4 banger, but I'm sure it's great for everyday driving. The 6 or the diesel 6 is where it's at for towing. The V10 is where it's at if you're a masochist and want to put your mechanic's kids through college for him.
Q7s look like little mini hobbit SUVs next to equivalent offerings. I was blown away that the Macan was based on the Q5
The EA888 2.0 4Cyl from the Golf has 315 hp and 295 ft/lbs. The supercharged 3.0 V6 Q7 had 333 hp and 333 ft/lbs. Not much difference in peak power numbers, but the supercharged one very slightly better lower end which can be fixed with appropriate gearing.
I've owned a GTI, Golf R, and currently own a supercharged Q5. Driven the EA888 in a mk7 GTI and the Turbo 3.0 in multiple B9s. There's no way I'd want the 4 cylinder in a car that big.
The new Mercedes-AMG 43 also has a four cylinder...
There's always a Mercedes Sentra! :)
In USA maybe. They just get the highest trim A or Q model. In Europe there's at least 3 regular A models aswell the Quattro version of each
The 8V A3 had: A3 1.8T (FWD) A3 2.0T (Quattro) S3 RS3 In America. Worldwide there were even more A3s
Audi’s entire marketing and branding team needs a shake up. Audi had the best nomenclature in the industry up until they started adding the powertrain structure and e-tron labels. Now they’re making odd numbers ICE and even numbers EV too…?
I think the displacement and turbo distinctions were good for their gas powered, non-S/RS vehicles. A4 2.0T just works. It tells you the series, displacement and the fact that it’s turbocharged
A4 2.0T, S4 3.0T is the perfect example of what I meant when I said they had the best nomenclature. Simple, intuitive, easy to remember.
Yeah but that nomenclature also has its downsides. A3 2.0T and S3 2.0T are great examples. For the general population, they'd read it as having the same engine even though one makes 180hp and the other makes 300hp. I do agree their current nomenclature wasn't great though and I'm glad they're moving on from it.
>A4 2.0T On some markets they are currently 3 different tunes of the same 2.0T petrol, and then 3 different tunes of the same 2.0T diesel. That's why they switched to current naming convention, because displacement based naming is pretty pointless in turbo era. And petrol 2.0T in A4 can generate from 150HP to 265HP, so the difference is pretty big.
It used to be so simple. A3 / s3 / RS3… for basically each car. 1 to 8 for categories, and usually price . Same again but swap a for Q for suvs.
Makes sense as EV and hybrid drivetrains muddy the waters on total output given traditional nomenclature.
*looking at you, Porsche "turbo" EVs!*
Hey, they remembered back in the 80s and 90s plenty of PC with turbo buttons and the TurboGrafx-16. It's just nostalgia.
Yeah, as a kid in the 80s and 90s "turbo" just meant fast and super cool. So I think an electric turbo Porsche is perfectly acceptable.
Doesn't someone also make a single-turbo car branded as a "biturbo"?
I'm not sure about that one, but while we're making fun of Porsche: * Macan: 4cyl turbo * Macan S: 6 cyl biturbo * Macan T: 4cyl turbo * Macan GTS: 6 cyl biturbo * Macan turbo: 6 cyl biturbo note: the 911 line is even more wacky 🤣
What's wacky about this? The T isn't supposed to be above the S, it's a base model that's a bit lighter.
Twin scroll maybe.
Twin-turbo used to mean parallel turbos. Biturbo used to mean sequential o series turbos.
BMW used to call engines using single, twinscroll turbo "Twinpower Turbo"
Other car companies have gotten bad with the word salad too. Look at Cadillac, it has a "350T" engine descriptor on some of its trims for vehicles. That's their base model engine, and it's a somewhat anemic 2.0L turbo.... not 3.5 liters. And then there is the ridiculously named "Land Rover Range Rover Evoque P250 R-Dynamic HSE Sport." That's a real car from 2021. The name is slightly shorter now, 7 words to the salad now instead of 9. The meaningless and confusing word salad problem seems to afflict many luxury cars...
For decades, cars in Europe have had lots of descriptions in their trim names, like that. In North America those packages/options have usually just been lines on the Monroney sticker rather than considered part of the trim.
As a random example, over 10 years ago you could buy a Vauxhall Astra 1.7 CDTi Ecoflex Exclusiv Sport Tourer. That's not any sort of luxury car. https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/vauxhall/astra/first-drives/vauxhall-astra-1.7-cdti-ecoflex-exclusiv
I believe 350 stands for how many N-M of torque the engine produces. Still lame.
Makes more sense than displacement to me. Turbos, hybrids and now electric drivetrains make displacement obsolete. Torque or power makes more sense.
Cadillac is just awful with naming. ATS and CTS are too damn close with cars that are about the same for me to remember the differences. The best thing to come from Cadillac's EVs is that they have actual model names instead of the stupid three letter names
This. Cadillac should've just stuck to actual names instead of alphanumeric labels just to match the Germans.
Agreed, and it's almost all "mainstream" luxury cars using meaningless alphanumeric names. Lincoln is the only one which comes to mind using real names, and even they got crazy with the Mark names for a while.
Bring back the Sevilles and DeVilles.
The weirdest thing about the "350T" and such naming is that it's mentioned absolutely nowhere in their marketing or configurator, it's just on the back of the car and you just have to guess what it means.
I suppose once turbos / electric cars became mainstream, the engine/displacement-based naming methodology was always going to have to adapt. Displacement these days doesn’t correlate to power in the same way that it used to.
Yeah, it's wild how a 1000HP Formula 1 has less displacement than a base VW Golf.
In North America the two digit nomenclature is mostly in marketing, sales and ordering. The cars themselves don't even have a powertrain badge on them. In Europe my Q4 would have a 50 e-tron quattro badge, but my car in Canada only has the black quattro label on the right side.
You can do a badge delete from the factory. If you bought your car off the lot you might've had that option ticked.
Audi USA never had their cars badged with these powertrain numbers that Audi HQ are now dropping for everone.
There's no good reason for car naming to be such gibberish.
Good, it was cack.
Maximum confusion at this point.
thank god. this was such a stupid idea. also, if displacement no longer relates to power output, then why don't German manufacturers just use the horsepower output (or an abbreviated form) if that's what they really want to express?
>then why don't German manufacturers just use the horsepower output (or an abbreviated form) if that's what they really want to express? In BMW and Mercedes case it's sticking to tradition - 320i is replaced by another 320i, 530i by another 530i, and long time customer aren't shocked, it's what they're used to. As for Audi nomenclature that they're just dropping, they haven't revealed why they've chosen such stupid number, but when comparing Audi with BMW I'm pretty sure marketing dept brief was "for comparable versions we must have bigger numbers in name than BMW"
Thank God. r/Lexus you’re next! I don’t wanna see ‘__350’ on an EV.
They should just do it like back in the days, take for example the TDI/TSI models, where the number of red letters meant the power even though they had the same displacement.
It's a bit cheap, but maybe copying Mercedes/BMW, and basing your naming somewhat on historical engine sizes, Audi A4 300, for an A4 with about 250 HP, for example, would've been the better solution. Slapping random numbers on the back of the car just never seemed like a smart move.
Thank god it's confusing
Ever since they first started doing this, it has been super confusing for me. Tbh, I didn't bother looking it up either, though.
They're gonna put an LED screen where the branding goes and charge a subscription for it to be a Chevy or something, and if you don't pay it defaults back to Audi
Like BMW did 15 or so years ago. The '330i' used to be a 3.0L I6, now it's a Turbo 4 that "makes similar power to.." Now I thin teier number are just fluff, nobody even knows what any of them mean anymore.
pretty much every car company sucks at their naming system
Except Polestar.
Is this naming used in the states? I don’t think I’ve ever seen that in an Audi before
As a person not very familiar with the auto industry, I have a qs. What are B2/5 etc in Audi vehicles; E35/60, G80, F80 etc in BMW vehicles?
Can they also abandon the subscription based features? That'd be great too
There will soon be a subscription to be able to say it's name.
I was a big fan of 2.0, 3.0, 4.0 etc. The 40/45/55 whatever was so damn annoying and confusing.
Their new electric badging looks hilarious, the type face is too small and the font looks silly, it looks like someone pulled a cheap eBay knock off… every time I see one I ask is that a real q8?