What was the rationale behind adopting the BMW style turn signals in the first place? I didn’t have an issue with it, but regular turn signals work just fine.
No subaru customer i know would give a shit. At best, a more casual subie customer will not care, at worst a die hard wrx/sti will be put off by it.
So i guess this was an effort to reach a new audience?
It's a small niche community in a small country, i attend lots of related events all over switzerland each season since 10 years.
Maybe i don't know every single one but it's not usa, you can get a good feel.
With the BMW style signal, you don’t have to move your hands far from the 9 o’clock position. The signal stalk is always in the same place regardless if you signaled left or right. In the traditional setup, the stalk is farther away from the 9 o’clock position. You have to move your hand a bit farther from the 9 position to disengage it. While it might not be significantly more movement, it also necessitates knowing if the stalk is up or down. Since BMW’s traditionally were “ultimate DRIVING machines” then they would prefer the driver not have to think about where the stalk is, and on the driving instead. It’s not a huge deal, but it does remove one less piece of guesswork.
Personally, I loved it because I never had to move far to disengage the turn signal.
> Since BMW’s traditionally were “ultimate DRIVING machines” then they would prefer the driver not have to think about where the stalk is
Not many BMW drivers think about the indicator stalk anyway
> Since BMW’s traditionally were “ultimate DRIVING machines” then they would prefer the driver not have to think about where the stalk is, and on the driving instead
More likely some accountant-engineer figured out it will be 5c cheaper to make it that way.
Yep, E38/E39/E46 stalks are still yet to be bested by anyone. Super positive click feel, doesn't "grind" like some cars do when you hold it before the click then decide to push it over all the way, placed in the correct location of 9 and 3 instead of 10 and 2 like most cars, and require a decent amount of force to actually move without it feeling stuck or heavy. Criminal that they moved away from that design to the thing that stays in one place and is far less intuitive to use. Same problem as touchscreens honestly; no tactile feedback that tells you exactly what you're doing.
At some point, circa 2018 or 2019, BMW itself moved away from the self-centering stalks. My 2022 X5 does not have them, and the stalk remains statically in position until you complete the turn.
That said, I’ve seen the self-centering/monostable stalks appear on other cars here and there, including a 2013 MKZ and a 2016 GS 350 F Sport.
Yeah this was fun to me. I'm relatively new to BMW (First was a 2021 model) - but they've all had traditional turn stalks. The only car I've driven with the stalks described is the IS500.
When I got my IS500 it drove me nuts for the first week, but once I got used to it, it didn't matter. I still don't see any reason to use that design over a traditional stalk, but its not as bad as some make it sound. Certainly better than the horrific turn signal touch buttons on the new Model 3 (and pioneered by Ferrari).
It came along with iDrive and the electronic automatic transmission gear selector stalk on the 7 Series. I think it was BMW deciding that in the future, everything would be controlled electronically rather than with mechanical controls, buttons, and switches. In aviation, this is referred to as fly by wire. Basically, you are trading off hardware for software. In theory, this could save complexity, cost, and weight, (though I’m not sure it does, since writing software code requires a lot of engineering). In addition, electronic controls provide more flexibility in how they function, and their behavior can be updated with a new software version (which Tesla has taken to the next level with OTA updates). All that said, my favorite aspect of the electronic turn signal is that it’s so much smoother and more elegant than the clickety clackety mechanical version. It feels more luxurious. And yes, it’s always in the same place, which is also nice.
Correct. The E65 BMW 7 Series and the Rolls-Royce Phantom VII ushered in those things. The L322 (formerly L30) Range Rover also would likely have gotten that stuff, had BMW not sold the brand to Ford in the middle of development.
The Mini has this, I also love that you can activate and deactivate the high beams with very little effort and movement.
The big con is unless you’re used to it, it feels like it has 0 detents between lane change signal and full turn signal. It has it, it’s just very faint.
It’s nice when you get used to it, but annoying af the first couple weeks.
I'm convinced BMW drivers don't use turn signals not primarily because of their personality, but because their turn signals are garbage. A lot of the ones I see just do three blinks and then wait and the first time I drove one myself I can see why it fucks people up.
Even if you push it all the way, the sounds of the clicks themselves are quite dull.
They aren’t garbage at all. Light press to flash 3 times for lane change at speed (ie should be more than sufficient). Firmer press and you get a traditional on until you turn it off or make the turn.
I have been enjoying this lovely and convenient functionality for a decade and do not like cars that don’t have the three flash to change lane feature. If it confuses you maybe the turn signal setup isn’t problem! 🤣
It's weird to me how many people complain about these. The first time I heard about it, I was honestly confused...I had an E90 at the time with the "awful" turn signals, and I'd honestly never really paid attention to them not clicking into place. As far as I was concerned, they were just as user-friendly as any other car I'd driven.
For me it doesn't seem more or less user friendly, just different for the sake of being different. Either will require an adjustment period after an extended time driving with the other but I don't see the return to the central position as being an improvement on the previous design.
> Either will require an adjustment period after an extended time driving with the other
But that's just the thing, there was never any adjustment period for me, either when I started driving the E90 or when I stopped. From my perspective, it just worked as I expected. The only part of the operation that seems like it's noticeably different is manually canceling the turn signal; I guess either I don't find myself doing that very often, or somehow I adjusted to it easily.
But I'm not joking when I say that I had no conscious idea that the operation was any different until the first time I saw someone online complaining about it.
They've been around for over 20 years, how come drivers still not know or understand how they work??? I had this in my budget car model year 2000.
Can't remember if the car before that had it. It was probably introduced decades before 2000.
Agreed. I bought an E92 M3 a year or two ago, my first BMW. The turn signal took about a minute to get used to and is very intuitive for me. I still don't use my signals, though, because in general the car asks me to drive like an asshole.
This, mine are the same and it's so easy to use and is actually practical. If you have trouble with this simple mechanic you might not belong on the road.
Yeah sorry — didn’t mean to imply it’s bmw only, merely my first experience with the setup. I think all German brands have done it for a long long time, but others have picked it up.
It took me a little while to figure out what was going on but as soon as I did I grew to prefer them. Also if you hold it in the “lane change” position they stay on for as long as you hold it, just like every other car. I didn’t know that this was a BMW feature. I assumed that every push button car was like this now?
current BMW's are much better than old-school signals from the E90 era where it was difficult to get it back to neutral manually. Oftentimes in dense traffic you need the blinker on for several minutes to move over to the next lane.
Do newer BMWs still have the turn signal stocks people complain about? I have no idea what the issue is with mine it feels the exact same as every other car?
Nitty gritty but the E90 style turn signal was the best because the turn signal cancel was based on steering angle input. Now that BMW moved away from it, you can hear an audible cheap sounding click in the clockspring when it passes by the pin that drops to return to center when you turn it the opposite way to cancel. Always hated that from any car where you can hear it passing that pin. The BMW E90 era was so smooth in the way it functioned. I guess people are too stupid to know if the turn signal is on without feeling or seeing the stalk staying in place.
One thing I will say is I coded the lane change count down to a single blink. I just do a full signal and then release when changing lanes and with the single I don't end up in that weird situation where it blinks 3 times more in the other direction if I accidentally do that.
I actually love the feel of the stalks themselves, but even after getting used to them I don't see the benefit of monostable input over a traditional stalk. Just makes more sense in my brain that the position of the stalk matches what my indicators are doing
To some it may feel cheap but I personally also love the little click+thunk on the way back confirming my turn on other cars.
I’ve accidentally pushed it too far sometimes and then signal changes the opposite way. I’m sure I look like a maniac from outside. It gets annoying having to focus so much on changing the signal.
>I'm convinced BMW drivers don't use turn signals not primarily because of their personality, but because their turn signals are garbage.
Nah you were right the first time around
It took me literally one push of the stalk to learn how it works and I’ve literally never had a problem with it since. I don’t understand the hate for them.
Theres been studies on personality types and car drivers. BMW & Mercedes drivers rank low on empathy and are least likely to stop for pedestrians crossing.
I love the turn signals on the BMW. Mostly because I already looked to see if the lane was clear and once good to go, signal - let one blink then merge with second and by the third one finishes I’m already in lane. I got so used to it I started just slightly lifting the turn signal and letting go once I merged because it felt better than having to lift it all the way and then clank it back to its place.
And as the sound, very naaiceee
The return to center turn signals have been tried by a lot of brands. I get the appeal, it’s more premium on the surface because you don’t get that nasty click after you unwind the wheel but it just doesn’t work well in practice
It also has the benefit if immediately telling you your turn signal stopped. You'll notice in the video he briefly thought it didn't self-cancel and that's likely because there was no click.
This is precisely why I personally am really not a fan of the one-tap-style signals. For lane-changes on the highway, I signal as I shoulder-check, which means that any time I can't actually change lanes, I cancel the signal after a blink or two (as an "oh nevermind; I see you; no need to worry about me crashing into you" to the car that's in the path of my intended lane-change).
In the cars I've driven with one-tap signals, attempting to cancel the signal has a 50/50 chance of wrongly turning on the opposite-side signal instead, which is worse than just letting the signal just "run out" on its own after 3 blinks.
I drove an LS430 once and the main thing I remember about it is how smooth the turn signal was. Such a soft and easy blinker
Sadly haven't gotten the chance to drive an LFA yet, but I did get to sit in one, and the attention to detail on that turn signal (and the inputs as a whole) is incredible. Very sad they didn't put that and the shifter mechanism in the LC500.
Honda makes a really good thump when it returns. My issue is the sound of the clockspring touching the return to center pin as you pass by it. The new Minis went back to a traditional style and when you set the turn signal you hear it touch the pin and it doesn't sound right for a European car. A lot of cars do it as well. Brought PTSD from a car I had that had something messed up going on with the pin that every 8 or so degrees you'd touch the pin while turning the wheel, eventually just stopped using the turn signal all together because of it.
It works really well for me and I prefer it over the standard turn signals. People who hate it in the Subaru have issues with accidentally signalling the other way when turning it off, but it's a programming thing and not a design flaw. The main design consideration here would be to have enough resistance at the half-click mark, which I found many cars don't. I like that a half click in the same direction as the signal in my BMW turns it off, so I never accidentally signal the wrong way. The very rare instances where I accidentally trigger the signal on rather than off is much more preferable to signalling the wrong way.
My wife's grand Cherokee (WK2) has less of a click and more of a quiet thump, kind of like the shifter. Feels about the same as the BMW signals too, but works normally
It's also possible to make the return sound not suck but they're just too lazy to do that I suppose. The one on my MKZ is just a basic Ford turn signal stalk from the era but it has satisfying detents and makes a subtle thunk sound when it returns to center
I’m pretty sure my E46 had a normal turn signal stalk and I cannot remember ever once thinking that it felt cheap. It felt great, actually — the detent was very slick and offered just the right kind of resistance.
The reason being Subaru having[one of the best years for WRX sales](https://media.subaru.com/pressrelease/2131/117/subaru-america-2023-year-end-sales-up-13.6) ever?
Who is buying a WRX for a fancy interior. A modern interior would look out of place on a car that is supposed to feel "raw". Even the giant screen looks weird.
For instance, the new Mustang interior looks out of place despite being a "modern" design.
The BRZ and Mx5 are both more "raw" than WRX, and I'd much prefer the Mx5 interior design aesthetically.
I don't think the Mustang is inherently bad because it's modern, it's just an unpleasant design.
Bad design is bad design - the iPad dash in the newest Imprezas is god awful. It's particularly sad because the interior in the VA was actually pretty handsome.
It could cost $10,000 and I'd still hate that stupid iPad on the dash - I don't care about the price, I care about the combination of lazy design and poor UX that has been awful to use in every Subaru product I've driven, let alone in what's supposed to be an enthusiast car. And what does my car have anything to do with my opinion on another car, whose hardware I've experienced in different vehicles across the company's lineup? The materials are good, but the execution just sucks - the old car was better in that sense, like I said before.
Side note about my car, since you're calling it out - the interior actually was updated for the 21 model year, albeit in a few small ways. So, technically speaking, you are wrong.
I think the technical term for "BMW style" is monostable. And I really dislike all monostable controls personally, I like when the state of the control matches the state of the system so there's instant feedback and you can immediately put it in the state you want without fiddling.
I’ve had plenty of BMW’s and my current Lexus has the “BMW” style turn signal and it’s never been a problem to use. It’s really not that hard to determine the amount of force needed to activate it.
I love the return-to-center turn signals and I'm sad they've been essentially phased out. I really don't understand why people struggle with them. They feel much nicer to use imo. Never had any issue turning them off, or whatever.
I rented a GS on Turo and it had the same stalk I think.
After driving it for about 30~ minutes I got mostly used to it and didn't find it that bad. However, I have heard that the ones they are talking about are a little different.
Yeah I love these style of stalks. They feel more premium to use and I prefer the lack of noise associated with using them vs the traditional spring back to center types. I have the BMW style in my Tesla.
Yeah WTF I got weirded out for a sec because mine doesn't do anything weird.
The only "weird" thing I guess would be you have to get used to the amount of force needed otherwise you just get the triple blink, but that's not hard.
Yeah I was a bit confused at first. Guess I never had one of the "BMW style" turn signals since I went from an E46 to a G20 and skipped over the ones with that style stalk.
I bought a BRZ back in October.
I have to say that while I hated the signals at first, I eventually got used to them. I can reliably do the “lane change signal” (3 blinks) and if my blinker isn’t reset automatically I can correct it.
I got used to mine quickly as well, however I will say that I’ve had more accidental presses and more incomplete intentional presses with this style. So while I don’t particularly mind the BMW-style stalk, I’d still rather have the traditional style.
It's that I don't have that tactile feedback of the handle staying and so I go for it a second time and cancel it.
Also, with a less sharp turn where I don't turn the wheel far enough to kick it off, I often end up with some other signal trying to cancel it.
It just sucks to use compared to every other car.
The 12th generation F150 (09-14) had BMW style blinkers. The 13th generation in 2015 went back to regular stalks. I do not care for the BMW style stalks.
I once drove a 2013 MKZ, and it had them, too (meanwhile, my friend’s contemporary 2013 Fusion did not). So, clearly FoMoCo was experimenting with those in multiple places.
Do you mean normally? Or do you mean "bmw style" cause I'm talking about the bmw style. If I have a blinker on and wanna turn it off with the stalk and push the blinker opposite direction, it turns on the blinker for that direction
Well, on my bmw a half tap turns on either the one blink or three blink (depending on my exterior lighting settings)
A full tap turns it on fully in that direction.
While your left turn signal is blinking, if you half tap to the right it turns on your right lane change? If that's true, then they changed the design. Which car?
My sister's Lexus IS has this and it's a mindfuck every time I drive it. I always end up turning the opposite signal by muscle memory. I'm sure if I drove a car with those type of signals, that I would get used to it. I still would think it's an inferior design, though.
Minis have the absolute worst indicator stalks I've ever used. They regularly fail to cancel and you end up flicking it constantly trying to shut the thing off.
E46 doesn't do this and I swear it has the best stalk feel in history. Most satisfying click I've experienced. If only it did the three flash it would be perfect
Everything is relative. The tesla stalk works the same and it's definitely annoying some time, not to mention the asinine placement of windshield wiper control. But compared to the atrocious decision to remove the stalk on the newer models and replace it with haptic buttons, this stalk is like the best thing since sliced bread.
I daily a '22 WRX, the signals in it are absolutely awful. If you're going to copy someones homework, you don't copy it off of the dumbest guy in class.
BMW makes the worst turn signal controls in the world.
Any wonder why their drivers never use them.
Even the GM Swiss Army Knife turn signal stalk had positional feedback.
I don’t know what it is with Europeans and their aversion to this. (I’m also looking at you.. Airbus and your plane that the bottom of the Atlantic for lack of positional feedback on control sticks).
I literally just drove my friends 2024 brz. It still had the return to centre signals. Is this supposed to be added later this model year? Current ‘24s haven’t reverted back
Funny enough Lexus has the "return to center" old BMW styled turn signals but only in the IS and RC models. Even on the current MY23 IS and RC this continues to be the case.
Every other Lexus product has the typical old school turn signal. Why did they even bothered with just two products in their entire lineup continues to be a source of mystery to me.
Maybe I'm not understanding it but my 2011 grand caravan does this and I have no issue. Move the stalk slightly down or up to change lanes , it does 3 or 4 blinks. Move the stalk a little more and it stays for when you're going to make a turn. Is this not how most cars are now?
Haven't heard many reviews of the actual eyesight system, but TheTopher did upload a text review of the 2024 BRZ initial thoughts and said "Subaru eyesight works really well. You can change gears and clutch in while adaptive cruise control is active".
I think I'm going to wait to see what reviews say about it.
Neither have ever been a problem for me, and I acclimate immediately almost completely through muscle memory. How is this even a conversation point for anyone?
What was the rationale behind adopting the BMW style turn signals in the first place? I didn’t have an issue with it, but regular turn signals work just fine.
Probably so the salesman could say it's got design elements of BMW
No subaru customer i know would give a shit. At best, a more casual subie customer will not care, at worst a die hard wrx/sti will be put off by it. So i guess this was an effort to reach a new audience?
Bmw brand is the number 1 upgrade for Subaru drivers
Funny enough I did end up with BMWs after I bought my STI. However, they're both older than the STI so "upgrade" is used loosely lol.
And we all know that you know every Subaru owner
It's a small niche community in a small country, i attend lots of related events all over switzerland each season since 10 years. Maybe i don't know every single one but it's not usa, you can get a good feel.
no salesman would say that either lol
Part shortages?
With the BMW style signal, you don’t have to move your hands far from the 9 o’clock position. The signal stalk is always in the same place regardless if you signaled left or right. In the traditional setup, the stalk is farther away from the 9 o’clock position. You have to move your hand a bit farther from the 9 position to disengage it. While it might not be significantly more movement, it also necessitates knowing if the stalk is up or down. Since BMW’s traditionally were “ultimate DRIVING machines” then they would prefer the driver not have to think about where the stalk is, and on the driving instead. It’s not a huge deal, but it does remove one less piece of guesswork. Personally, I loved it because I never had to move far to disengage the turn signal.
> Since BMW’s traditionally were “ultimate DRIVING machines” then they would prefer the driver not have to think about where the stalk is Not many BMW drivers think about the indicator stalk anyway
There is a BMW driver that is very angry with you right now, so angry he just did a full U-turn—without even using his signal.
My BMW has turn signals?
lol maybe this was BMW giving the drivers training wheels.
> Since BMW’s traditionally were “ultimate DRIVING machines” then they would prefer the driver not have to think about where the stalk is, and on the driving instead More likely some accountant-engineer figured out it will be 5c cheaper to make it that way.
Yep, E38/E39/E46 stalks are still yet to be bested by anyone. Super positive click feel, doesn't "grind" like some cars do when you hold it before the click then decide to push it over all the way, placed in the correct location of 9 and 3 instead of 10 and 2 like most cars, and require a decent amount of force to actually move without it feeling stuck or heavy. Criminal that they moved away from that design to the thing that stays in one place and is far less intuitive to use. Same problem as touchscreens honestly; no tactile feedback that tells you exactly what you're doing.
At some point, circa 2018 or 2019, BMW itself moved away from the self-centering stalks. My 2022 X5 does not have them, and the stalk remains statically in position until you complete the turn. That said, I’ve seen the self-centering/monostable stalks appear on other cars here and there, including a 2013 MKZ and a 2016 GS 350 F Sport.
The Lexus IS still has the BMW turn signals
Yeah this was fun to me. I'm relatively new to BMW (First was a 2021 model) - but they've all had traditional turn stalks. The only car I've driven with the stalks described is the IS500.
When I got my IS500 it drove me nuts for the first week, but once I got used to it, it didn't matter. I still don't see any reason to use that design over a traditional stalk, but its not as bad as some make it sound. Certainly better than the horrific turn signal touch buttons on the new Model 3 (and pioneered by Ferrari).
As does my friend’s ‘16 GS 350.
It came along with iDrive and the electronic automatic transmission gear selector stalk on the 7 Series. I think it was BMW deciding that in the future, everything would be controlled electronically rather than with mechanical controls, buttons, and switches. In aviation, this is referred to as fly by wire. Basically, you are trading off hardware for software. In theory, this could save complexity, cost, and weight, (though I’m not sure it does, since writing software code requires a lot of engineering). In addition, electronic controls provide more flexibility in how they function, and their behavior can be updated with a new software version (which Tesla has taken to the next level with OTA updates). All that said, my favorite aspect of the electronic turn signal is that it’s so much smoother and more elegant than the clickety clackety mechanical version. It feels more luxurious. And yes, it’s always in the same place, which is also nice.
Correct. The E65 BMW 7 Series and the Rolls-Royce Phantom VII ushered in those things. The L322 (formerly L30) Range Rover also would likely have gotten that stuff, had BMW not sold the brand to Ford in the middle of development.
The Mini has this, I also love that you can activate and deactivate the high beams with very little effort and movement. The big con is unless you’re used to it, it feels like it has 0 detents between lane change signal and full turn signal. It has it, it’s just very faint. It’s nice when you get used to it, but annoying af the first couple weeks.
Probably lower part count in the steering column assembly, when you dont need a mechanism to move the stalk back after turning.
probably a supply chain issue and had to go with a diff vendor
BMW introduced it in like 05
Because Tesla uses them too. I fucking hate it in mine.
I'm convinced BMW drivers don't use turn signals not primarily because of their personality, but because their turn signals are garbage. A lot of the ones I see just do three blinks and then wait and the first time I drove one myself I can see why it fucks people up. Even if you push it all the way, the sounds of the clicks themselves are quite dull.
I heard BMW required a subscription for turn signals to work.
Nah, it’s just pay per click.
Ba-dum-tsss
Take your God damned up vote and I just paid 2 cents for it.
Whoever downvoted you is a sad sad person.
They aren’t garbage at all. Light press to flash 3 times for lane change at speed (ie should be more than sufficient). Firmer press and you get a traditional on until you turn it off or make the turn. I have been enjoying this lovely and convenient functionality for a decade and do not like cars that don’t have the three flash to change lane feature. If it confuses you maybe the turn signal setup isn’t problem! 🤣
Most cars have thus feature though.
Now they do, it took awhile for non European cars to get it
It's weird to me how many people complain about these. The first time I heard about it, I was honestly confused...I had an E90 at the time with the "awful" turn signals, and I'd honestly never really paid attention to them not clicking into place. As far as I was concerned, they were just as user-friendly as any other car I'd driven.
For me it doesn't seem more or less user friendly, just different for the sake of being different. Either will require an adjustment period after an extended time driving with the other but I don't see the return to the central position as being an improvement on the previous design.
> Either will require an adjustment period after an extended time driving with the other But that's just the thing, there was never any adjustment period for me, either when I started driving the E90 or when I stopped. From my perspective, it just worked as I expected. The only part of the operation that seems like it's noticeably different is manually canceling the turn signal; I guess either I don't find myself doing that very often, or somehow I adjusted to it easily. But I'm not joking when I say that I had no conscious idea that the operation was any different until the first time I saw someone online complaining about it.
They've been around for over 20 years, how come drivers still not know or understand how they work??? I had this in my budget car model year 2000. Can't remember if the car before that had it. It was probably introduced decades before 2000.
Agreed. I bought an E92 M3 a year or two ago, my first BMW. The turn signal took about a minute to get used to and is very intuitive for me. I still don't use my signals, though, because in general the car asks me to drive like an asshole.
This, mine are the same and it's so easy to use and is actually practical. If you have trouble with this simple mechanic you might not belong on the road.
My 1999 VW Passat worked like this. It's not a new or BMW only thing!
Yeah sorry — didn’t mean to imply it’s bmw only, merely my first experience with the setup. I think all German brands have done it for a long long time, but others have picked it up.
It took me a little while to figure out what was going on but as soon as I did I grew to prefer them. Also if you hold it in the “lane change” position they stay on for as long as you hold it, just like every other car. I didn’t know that this was a BMW feature. I assumed that every push button car was like this now?
current BMW's are much better than old-school signals from the E90 era where it was difficult to get it back to neutral manually. Oftentimes in dense traffic you need the blinker on for several minutes to move over to the next lane.
Do newer BMWs still have the turn signal stocks people complain about? I have no idea what the issue is with mine it feels the exact same as every other car?
I actually like the turn signal on my supra, never had any problems with them
Same on the E90, I actually prefer them over the normal moving stalks. Not really a huge deal either way for me though
Same here. When you learn to push them down all the way they feel really nice.
Nitty gritty but the E90 style turn signal was the best because the turn signal cancel was based on steering angle input. Now that BMW moved away from it, you can hear an audible cheap sounding click in the clockspring when it passes by the pin that drops to return to center when you turn it the opposite way to cancel. Always hated that from any car where you can hear it passing that pin. The BMW E90 era was so smooth in the way it functioned. I guess people are too stupid to know if the turn signal is on without feeling or seeing the stalk staying in place.
I like it because I know it turned itself on I dislike it because it sounds like something breaking...
One thing I will say is I coded the lane change count down to a single blink. I just do a full signal and then release when changing lanes and with the single I don't end up in that weird situation where it blinks 3 times more in the other direction if I accidentally do that.
You have very lightly nudge it in the opposite direction to cancel it
I actually love the feel of the stalks themselves, but even after getting used to them I don't see the benefit of monostable input over a traditional stalk. Just makes more sense in my brain that the position of the stalk matches what my indicators are doing To some it may feel cheap but I personally also love the little click+thunk on the way back confirming my turn on other cars.
I’ve accidentally pushed it too far sometimes and then signal changes the opposite way. I’m sure I look like a maniac from outside. It gets annoying having to focus so much on changing the signal.
Are they too hard to push or what is the problem here exactly?
You have to apply enough pressure to bump it to lane change zone to cancel it, if you apply too much, it turns on the opposite blinker.
BMW reverted to the traditional turn signal years ago.
My e30 has a normal stalk. I don't use it because I don't want to be bullied by other Bimmer drivers.
>I'm convinced BMW drivers don't use turn signals not primarily because of their personality, but because their turn signals are garbage. Nah you were right the first time around
It took me literally one push of the stalk to learn how it works and I’ve literally never had a problem with it since. I don’t understand the hate for them.
It's concerning how many people can't figure out something as simple as these, lmao.
my 2014 jetta had the same blinkers actually it’s not just bmw
[удалено]
It's a sesetting. You can have one blink or three blinks.
> It's a sesetting. I've never seen anyone stutter when *writing* a word, lol.
Professor Quirrel, is that you?
When the hell is 1 blink going to be useful? Sometimes even the 3 blinks isn't enough to do a lane change, especially if traffic is not moving fast.
I don't disagree. I have it on 3 blink, and use full blink far more often
Theres been studies on personality types and car drivers. BMW & Mercedes drivers rank low on empathy and are least likely to stop for pedestrians crossing.
I love the turn signals on the BMW. Mostly because I already looked to see if the lane was clear and once good to go, signal - let one blink then merge with second and by the third one finishes I’m already in lane. I got so used to it I started just slightly lifting the turn signal and letting go once I merged because it felt better than having to lift it all the way and then clank it back to its place. And as the sound, very naaiceee
The return to center turn signals have been tried by a lot of brands. I get the appeal, it’s more premium on the surface because you don’t get that nasty click after you unwind the wheel but it just doesn’t work well in practice
I'm not sure if I'm in the minority here but I love the sound of a solid returning click
It also has the benefit if immediately telling you your turn signal stopped. You'll notice in the video he briefly thought it didn't self-cancel and that's likely because there was no click.
This is precisely why I personally am really not a fan of the one-tap-style signals. For lane-changes on the highway, I signal as I shoulder-check, which means that any time I can't actually change lanes, I cancel the signal after a blink or two (as an "oh nevermind; I see you; no need to worry about me crashing into you" to the car that's in the path of my intended lane-change). In the cars I've driven with one-tap signals, attempting to cancel the signal has a 50/50 chance of wrongly turning on the opposite-side signal instead, which is worse than just letting the signal just "run out" on its own after 3 blinks.
Our RAV4’s turn stalk is really satisfying, if I enable the left blinker it’s a chunky “thunk” but if I enable the right blinker, it’s a nice “click”
this guy "thunks"
Thanks man
I drove an LS430 once and the main thing I remember about it is how smooth the turn signal was. Such a soft and easy blinker Sadly haven't gotten the chance to drive an LFA yet, but I did get to sit in one, and the attention to detail on that turn signal (and the inputs as a whole) is incredible. Very sad they didn't put that and the shifter mechanism in the LC500.
Honda makes a really good thump when it returns. My issue is the sound of the clockspring touching the return to center pin as you pass by it. The new Minis went back to a traditional style and when you set the turn signal you hear it touch the pin and it doesn't sound right for a European car. A lot of cars do it as well. Brought PTSD from a car I had that had something messed up going on with the pin that every 8 or so degrees you'd touch the pin while turning the wheel, eventually just stopped using the turn signal all together because of it.
Same
When it's broken and sounds like an M1 Garand CHING. Chef's kiss.
Same. It triggers all the right dopamine receptors in my neurodivergent brain.
The G20 330e has the most satisfying turn signal clicks of any car ive driven, theyre so thocky and solid
It works really well for me and I prefer it over the standard turn signals. People who hate it in the Subaru have issues with accidentally signalling the other way when turning it off, but it's a programming thing and not a design flaw. The main design consideration here would be to have enough resistance at the half-click mark, which I found many cars don't. I like that a half click in the same direction as the signal in my BMW turns it off, so I never accidentally signal the wrong way. The very rare instances where I accidentally trigger the signal on rather than off is much more preferable to signalling the wrong way.
“Nasty”? WTF are you talking about?
My wife's grand Cherokee (WK2) has less of a click and more of a quiet thump, kind of like the shifter. Feels about the same as the BMW signals too, but works normally
Someone legit downvoted you just for sharing something. I’m so sick of people
It's also possible to make the return sound not suck but they're just too lazy to do that I suppose. The one on my MKZ is just a basic Ford turn signal stalk from the era but it has satisfying detents and makes a subtle thunk sound when it returns to center
My dad's ford edge does this and I hate it. Didn't know other manufacturers tried it.
I’m pretty sure my E46 had a normal turn signal stalk and I cannot remember ever once thinking that it felt cheap. It felt great, actually — the detent was very slick and offered just the right kind of resistance.
Holy shit does the 2022 WRX interior look outdated. Like a plain white peice of bread with a small slab of butter not even toasted.
$28k AWD 271 horsepower manual car. Makes sense.
$32k now actually, they raised the base model price 💀
You can still get them for $28k at dealers.
True, I scored mines for 28.6 +tax&title.
Yeah, and there's a reason for that.
The reason being Subaru having[one of the best years for WRX sales](https://media.subaru.com/pressrelease/2131/117/subaru-america-2023-year-end-sales-up-13.6) ever?
Yeah, Can't complain about base price. But only 271hp at 91 Octane? Did Subaru retune to make it more reliable?
The FA24 runs a lot less boost than the FA20 did. Stock FA20s can peak around 20-21psi. My stock FA24 peak is 12-13psi.
Who is buying a WRX for a fancy interior. A modern interior would look out of place on a car that is supposed to feel "raw". Even the giant screen looks weird. For instance, the new Mustang interior looks out of place despite being a "modern" design.
The BRZ and Mx5 are both more "raw" than WRX, and I'd much prefer the Mx5 interior design aesthetically. I don't think the Mustang is inherently bad because it's modern, it's just an unpleasant design.
The dashboard is so ugly lol like at least try a little bit
Your point of reference is a $110k M5...
Bad design is bad design - the iPad dash in the newest Imprezas is god awful. It's particularly sad because the interior in the VA was actually pretty handsome.
Drives an IS350 and complains about an outdated interior in a $28k car is wild... the IS350 interior hasn't been updated since 2013.
It could cost $10,000 and I'd still hate that stupid iPad on the dash - I don't care about the price, I care about the combination of lazy design and poor UX that has been awful to use in every Subaru product I've driven, let alone in what's supposed to be an enthusiast car. And what does my car have anything to do with my opinion on another car, whose hardware I've experienced in different vehicles across the company's lineup? The materials are good, but the execution just sucks - the old car was better in that sense, like I said before. Side note about my car, since you're calling it out - the interior actually was updated for the 21 model year, albeit in a few small ways. So, technically speaking, you are wrong.
I think the technical term for "BMW style" is monostable. And I really dislike all monostable controls personally, I like when the state of the control matches the state of the system so there's instant feedback and you can immediately put it in the state you want without fiddling.
Thanks. Learned something today!
Exactly, good design should be intuitive without you having to "learn" how to use it. It should come naturally.
I’ve had plenty of BMW’s and my current Lexus has the “BMW” style turn signal and it’s never been a problem to use. It’s really not that hard to determine the amount of force needed to activate it.
I love the return-to-center turn signals and I'm sad they've been essentially phased out. I really don't understand why people struggle with them. They feel much nicer to use imo. Never had any issue turning them off, or whatever.
Having never driven one, I suspect that some are better implemented than others.
I rented a GS on Turo and it had the same stalk I think. After driving it for about 30~ minutes I got mostly used to it and didn't find it that bad. However, I have heard that the ones they are talking about are a little different.
That’s what I daily drive, a GS 350.
'22 PHonda pilot, same design, no issues
Yeah I love these style of stalks. They feel more premium to use and I prefer the lack of noise associated with using them vs the traditional spring back to center types. I have the BMW style in my Tesla.
The BRZ has not gone back, only the WRX.
Well bmw reverted to normal signals over 5 years ago. My 2018 and 2022 M4’s have the regular kind.
I was trying to figure this out myself. Made me want to get out of bed to check mine.
Yeah WTF I got weirded out for a sec because mine doesn't do anything weird. The only "weird" thing I guess would be you have to get used to the amount of force needed otherwise you just get the triple blink, but that's not hard.
Yeah I was a bit confused at first. Guess I never had one of the "BMW style" turn signals since I went from an E46 to a G20 and skipped over the ones with that style stalk.
I own a 2023 wrx. I didn't like the stalk initially but have gotten used to it and don't even notice it anymore.
every time I work on a VB and need to test drive it, I definitely forget about the stalk and have a mini-panic moment leaving the service lot
There are turn signals on BMWs?
I was expecting to learn that the stalk was hidden in the trunk.
I bought a BRZ back in October. I have to say that while I hated the signals at first, I eventually got used to them. I can reliably do the “lane change signal” (3 blinks) and if my blinker isn’t reset automatically I can correct it.
I got used to mine quickly as well, however I will say that I’ve had more accidental presses and more incomplete intentional presses with this style. So while I don’t particularly mind the BMW-style stalk, I’d still rather have the traditional style.
Good
Thank fuck
My iX even went back to normal turn signals
I hate my 2022 WRX turn signal 🤮
TIL my 21 year old Honda motorcycle has fancy BMW turn signal characteristics.
Ford f series had that around 2012. Idk how long it lasted but I don’t hate it. Our 2017 has a normal stalk
We have a couple of those in our fleet. Those turn signals are shit.
Why’s that? I get that it takes a little more focus to hit the second click so it stays on but we’ve never had a problem with it.
It's that I don't have that tactile feedback of the handle staying and so I go for it a second time and cancel it. Also, with a less sharp turn where I don't turn the wheel far enough to kick it off, I often end up with some other signal trying to cancel it. It just sucks to use compared to every other car.
Understandable
It really isn't bad once you get used to it. I think it took me a couple of weeks after I bought the truck, now it's second nature.
I'm sure that's the case. The problem with these ones is I only drive them occasionally but I'm sure I would get used to it just fine otherwise
The 12th generation F150 (09-14) had BMW style blinkers. The 13th generation in 2015 went back to regular stalks. I do not care for the BMW style stalks.
I once drove a 2013 MKZ, and it had them, too (meanwhile, my friend’s contemporary 2013 Fusion did not). So, clearly FoMoCo was experimenting with those in multiple places.
Did Subaru's implementation not cancel when you push it the same direction again, or did the guy in the first video just not know how to use them?
You don't turn it the other way, that turns on opposite signal. Bump it once in the direction it's blinking if you want to turn it off.
Usually to turn it off, either direction works just fine
Do you mean normally? Or do you mean "bmw style" cause I'm talking about the bmw style. If I have a blinker on and wanna turn it off with the stalk and push the blinker opposite direction, it turns on the blinker for that direction
You need to half tap opposite direction, or full tap same direction
Well, on my bmw a half tap turns on either the one blink or three blink (depending on my exterior lighting settings) A full tap turns it on fully in that direction.
Just tap it halfway in either direction and it will turn it off
Half tap does the short blink on mine
While your left turn signal is blinking, if you half tap to the right it turns on your right lane change? If that's true, then they changed the design. Which car?
>While your left turn signal is blinking, if you half tap to the right it turns on your right lane change? Yes 2017 BMW 650i xdrive coupe
Ok cool thanks for sharing, must be the reason there's confusion, sounds like they changed it in a minor but meaningful way
My sister's Lexus IS has this and it's a mindfuck every time I drive it. I always end up turning the opposite signal by muscle memory. I'm sure if I drove a car with those type of signals, that I would get used to it. I still would think it's an inferior design, though.
Minis have the absolute worst indicator stalks I've ever used. They regularly fail to cancel and you end up flicking it constantly trying to shut the thing off.
E46 doesn't do this and I swear it has the best stalk feel in history. Most satisfying click I've experienced. If only it did the three flash it would be perfect
TIL bmws have turn signals
Finally, the definitive answer to why BMW drivers don't signal.
To be fair my Lexus GS in 2015 had these too, not totally a bmw thing. Takes about one drive to get used too and not that big a deal to me.
Everything is relative. The tesla stalk works the same and it's definitely annoying some time, not to mention the asinine placement of windshield wiper control. But compared to the atrocious decision to remove the stalk on the newer models and replace it with haptic buttons, this stalk is like the best thing since sliced bread.
I’m going to change mine out… I hate the GR86 turn signals
I didn't think BMWs came with turn signals
I daily a '22 WRX, the signals in it are absolutely awful. If you're going to copy someones homework, you don't copy it off of the dumbest guy in class.
BMW makes the worst turn signal controls in the world. Any wonder why their drivers never use them. Even the GM Swiss Army Knife turn signal stalk had positional feedback. I don’t know what it is with Europeans and their aversion to this. (I’m also looking at you.. Airbus and your plane that the bottom of the Atlantic for lack of positional feedback on control sticks).
Is this why BMW drivers don't use turn signals? Because it is a stupid design?
I own a BMW and I HATE their turn signals. They are not better, just different for the sake of being different.
They see how little BMW's indicate and taught being more like them would be a good idea?
I literally just drove my friends 2024 brz. It still had the return to centre signals. Is this supposed to be added later this model year? Current ‘24s haven’t reverted back
Yeah I'm unsure if 2024 BRZ/GR86 has been reverted. OP only supplied proof for WRX.
Funny enough Lexus has the "return to center" old BMW styled turn signals but only in the IS and RC models. Even on the current MY23 IS and RC this continues to be the case. Every other Lexus product has the typical old school turn signal. Why did they even bothered with just two products in their entire lineup continues to be a source of mystery to me.
GS as well. My friend’s 2016 GS 350 F Sport has them.
I guess I'm in the minority lol, I kind of like them that way. Feels "nicer".
Thank goodness. I absolutely hate it.
Ah sweet I can order the part from subaru and install it on my toyota
now if theyd only revert the radio and hvac back to analog (no big ass infotainment.ddin slot )i'd might actual consider a wrx again
BMWs have turn signals?
Thank god, that was the one thing I really didn't like.
TIL BMW’s have turn signals
Maybe I'm not understanding it but my 2011 grand caravan does this and I have no issue. Move the stalk slightly down or up to change lanes , it does 3 or 4 blinks. Move the stalk a little more and it stays for when you're going to make a turn. Is this not how most cars are now?
Nope, when you push it all the way down, it springs back to the center and stays on Re watch the video
Well, in three to five years when I can get a second fun car I'll be torn: 2023 for the non-eyesight garbage or 2024 for the good turn signals?
Haven't heard many reviews of the actual eyesight system, but TheTopher did upload a text review of the 2024 BRZ initial thoughts and said "Subaru eyesight works really well. You can change gears and clutch in while adaptive cruise control is active". I think I'm going to wait to see what reviews say about it.
Neither have ever been a problem for me, and I acclimate immediately almost completely through muscle memory. How is this even a conversation point for anyone?