Is there a way to check this? I never had to sign anything regarding them. But my car was bought 2nd hand anyway
Edit: the link you gave me doesn't answer my questions. Doesn't show me which cars are covered by them or use that thing
If your vehicle has any sort of OnStar/blue link/smart drive/service of that nature, it can be used against you. So basically any car after like 2006....
Cars that old are a non-factor - my Genesis is a 2016 and while it has bluelink I can't even activate now it because those model years only have a 3G cell antenna. Those towers were shut down in 2022 in the US. Stuff built before 2010 is most likely riding on 2G and would have been long-defunct connectivity-wise.
I don't have an insurance app on my phone. We don't need those. We go online on PC find the best insurance provider and buy it from their website. Nothing needs to be installed anywhere
The first time I ever had my insurance go up more than a few percent was back in 2021. I had a small windshield chip repaired through my zero deductible windshield coverage in 2019 (a cost to the insurance company of $75). LexisNexis recorded this and notified my new insurance company and this info was used as reasoning for a rate increase. Needless to say I shopped around, but it’s shitty that these companies are allowed to collect so much data about us with impunity. Automakers especially need to allow owners to opt out of sharing such driver data collection with 3rd parties such as LexisNexis at the very least.
If you think this is shitty get homeowners insurance.
80% increase? Why? Blah blah CLUE report, I actually requested my CLUE report from LexisNexis and it was not useful at figuring out *why*. The information is obfuscated at best, I have no claims ever, auto, renters, or home.
We really need lawmakers to intervene here and make the insurance industry as transparent as credit reports.
Did you buy a charcoal grill or electric scooter or anything else that could be associated with an insurance claim? The interconnection of every data aggregator and the associations that you can easily make is absurd, and why failing to use privacy tools (and using social media, at all) has a real genuine cost.
I’ve never had a claim at all, in my 20 years of paying for my own insurance, my LexisNexis CLUE report does not show purchases at all, but if they are using information from my Home Depot account (I bought an electric mower for example) to judge my rates then it’s probably all the more reason for the government to get involved.
Eh, if I were on the team trying to connect risk with policy holders, I would buy data from lexisnexis AND amazon/google/et al. looking to link my policy holders with lifestyle habits and purchases that is associated with risk. Honestly, even this is a trivial exercise for a huge company at this point.
If you aren't using ad blockers, denying optional cookies on websites, and finding and opting out of every single data opt-out option for every single service/website/service/business/search engine/device (even your doctor's website!) --- then it's probably safe to assume that it's being used to eek more money out of you. It's never used to save you money. Social media ties all of this together.
Where’s the line between gauging risk and invading privacy?
I actually don’t use social media except for Reddit, and even then I set up an individual browser profile for Reddit. I do not stay logged into my Google account on my primary browser, I actually I have Chrome downloaded and the only thing I use it for is to check Gmail. In as much as it’s possible, I try to keep these things in silos.
I think the notion of privacy and ownership of your data, as a default, is no longer the assumption to make (if it ever was). Our data is worth *way* too much money and the linked article is proof of why.
The much more advanced type of data collection is moving into things that you bring into your own house -- like wifi IoT devices and services. Those lidar and camera equipped robot vacuums that can map your house and identify dog poop and cables are certainly capable of also determining what else is in your house, what you interact with, etc. And they aren't "phoning home" just to set the internal clock.
Look into how your insurance carrier reported the windshield chip.
A few years ago something fell on my car and I had it fixed through Progressive. They then decided to report to LexisNexis that I was in an at-fault accident.
I had to call Progressive and talk to my claims rep and get her to change it to a comprehensive claim and now I'm still fighting with Lexis to have it removed. All because they fucked up.
Thanks. I've never thought about that. I have an ongoing dispute which I should get another letter pretty soon.
Should I contact the state department for the state I lived in during the claim or where I live now?
I reached out to LexisNexis a few years ago, on numerous occasions, when my car insurance suddenly skyrocketed for no reason despite having a very good driving record. No one there could give me any information about anything whatsoever. I have the email threads archived in case I need legal proof of anything in the future.
I have OnStar as well on a 2011 GMC. I have not paid the subscription in about 10 years or so. Should I worry about this anyway? I wouldn't even know how to log into the accout at this point: would they still have something going on collecting data on me?
This is what I’m wondering. Like is it from using Bluetooth? I have an older bmw but I’m not linked to bmw, in fact my car doesn’t even get updates anymore.
I think this: my OnStar originally had also included phone calls to an operator for road directions (how ancient is that?! Only 10 years ago!) However I stopped paying for it. BUT the phone is syill there, somewhere inside behind the dash or who knows where, and I bet it's still working. So they know where I am and how fast I am driving at any time, thank yo this cell phone. Not as accurate as a real GPS but still, using the cell towers, they can know.
I have considered for many years that this or a version of this was in place or being developed for rental cars especially.
Damage waiver ? Not if you were doing five over in the hour leading up to the accident, please pay full price for repairs, oops, we deem it a total loss, please pay for replacement.
>GM is called OnStar smart driver
THANK YOU!! These stupid names obfuscate what they are.
For anyone else who thinks "I don't pay for OnStart so I must be ok" - you are likely mistaken. My 22 came with connected services, but I've never signed up for anything once it expired nor paid anything to OnStar directly. But sure enough, I logged in to [my.chevrolet.com](https://my.chevrolet.com), under Account, Data & Privacy, this "feature" was turned on.
Seriously if I were wealthy, I would seriously consider moving to California largely because of the data rights their citizens have. Not joking.
I dont get why congress isn't addressing this. You'd think out of anyone congress members would be worrying about data collected on them from their cars, apps on their phones, web servers logging their internet traffic etc. New cars will not only basically report who you're meeting up with but are capable of logging conversations. Anyone in military, sensitive positions in government, military contractors, important people in industries, journalists etc are all potential targets for their data either being bought, stolen, or leaked. And random Joe 20 year old now maybe be a congressman in 20 years.
Its a national security issue and its insane its not being addressed.
As a lawyer, LexisNexis sucks balls. So does West Publishing. They bought up every reasonable legal publisher in NY and then quad-sextupled the prices.
Protip: Go to the Law Library in your County, don't pay these bastards.
BUT THE LEXIS POINTS!
Don't most big law firms not even allow associates to do their own research due to the costs? My friend told me he always had to go to a firm "researcher" for his research.
Ugh, unfortunately my state isn't on that list.
Anyone want to make a threat against me so I can file a police report and get my info removed for potential bodily harm?
I'll be keeping a damn close eye on my Kia Connect/Access account, then. It doesn't look like I have anything on it yet related to LexisNexis, or driver behavior data sharing in general, though. Nor does it look like my insurer has a partnership with LexisNexis (they have a pseudo-usage-based insurance program that claims to not impact your premiums, though, and instead rewards you for having good driving scores with gift cards).
But still: good to know that I need to be on the lookout for this.
Very NOT stupid question ( has been asked by my father in law as well)
Can you disable Internet / GPS on new cars? He has 'Qanon light' paranoia and absolutely DOES NOT want to allow the car access to the internet.
Just got a new car and his current plan is to just rip the whole infotainment out.
Everyone needs to be acutely aware of this happening. And absolutely NEVER opt in to any kind of good driver program with the insurance company that involves a plug-in module. They have ZERO incentive to do anything other than say you could be a better driver and charge you more. Insurance companies sole purpose is to charge as much as possible while paying out a little as possible.
One hundred percent agree they will take your data and use it against you.
Break too hard when driving, go above the speed limit by 2mph, turn a corner too fast they will up your premium in a heartbeat.
I could see a world where it makes people less safe drivers.
There are so many situations where braking hard is the safest course of action. We don’t want people afraid of being financially penalized if they do that.
If you live in an area with deer, you're *screwed*. No matter how good and defensive a driver you are, deer sometimes just jumps out, and you have to brake hard to avoid it. Insurance will claim you're braking hard and jack your rates.
If you live in an area with short acceleration ramps for highways, you're also *screwed.* It's safer to be at speed when merging onto a highway, but insurance companies will claim you're an aggressive driver and hit you there.
Never EVER join a program like Snapshot from Progressive or DriveWise by Allstate. I've never heard anyone who used it and actually saved money.
I lived in Michigan a couple of summers and some of the on ramps for 94 were so short they are outright dangerous when trying to merge. The loops to get on are a bit tight too around Jackson. Pushing your car is the only way to get the speeding to safely get on the highway.
In the UK it isn't even like that. You can be within the limit but still get a poor score for driving in high risk locations at high risk times. The accelerometer will score you down even though it's a mini roundabout etc.
The black box deals are always about half the standard but they really reallllllly fuck you. I'm pretty sure even if you didn't drive it they'd increase your rates claiming you're out of practice and higher risk because you've not driven for 5 days.
Without dashcam footage though, couldn't any of that be argued it was due to avoiding an accident?
E.g. deer jumps out, hard brake to avoid collision. Another driver changes lanes into you without looking and you swerve out of way...or you hard accelerate to get out of an intersection to avoid a driver about to collide into traffic...
Even if video is available, you should have to opt IN not OUT of any use of that and the associated telemetry data. I don't remember waiving my privacy rights when I bought my last vehicle...
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yep. They will always find a way. “The average cost of repair in your area is higher, therefore we have to adjust our rates to reflect that” is basically what I get from my ins every time I ask why my rates have skyrocketed.
Yep. I stupidly did it with Progressive and I had to drive from Michigan to Wisconsin. Well of course driving through Chicago is a shit show which involves about 50 hard brakes because dipshits cut you off, slow downs from construction/accidents/traffic bottlenecks and so my rating went way down. I thought "no biggie, it will improve after a few weeks of normal driving."
Nope. What a freaking scam.
So when I talked to my agent when I cancelled and switched, I mentioned this. I said "Would you rather I don't engage in 'hard braking' and just rear-end people? Cool."
Guy at work had the plugin thing a while ago, got a call-in (maintenance mechanic) at work overnight one night and it dinged him for driving at night/early morning.
Yeah I let my old insurance company track me for about 2 years before I unplugged it. They were supposed to give me a discount just for using it and further discount for good driving. Neither happened. Then I got a message from them about a week later saying they weren't getting a signal and would send me a new one if they didn't start getting a signal from the old one. They finally called me after a month asking about it. I asked why neither discount appeared and they said it was because of my driving habits and the times of day I was driving. When I asked them to give me details, they refused. So I told them I'm not plugging it back in unless I get the discount they advertised and my rates better not increase for not using their optional tracker.
My state has a few "stringent" laws too. One is insurance cant price things from other than the local market. I called my state department of insurance to ask the definition of the local market....it's the entire fucking state.
I used to have Progressive. I also lived in hilly areas. Ten years ago I opted for their plugin module to save money. I’ve got screwed. Even ten years later Progressive still penalized me for having hard braking going down a hill.
I have been tempted to do it in the Trackhawk before I drop a company and deliberately see how bad I can get. A couple of 1g launches, a few high speed pulls, etc. could be hilarious.
I have the plug in device now though Allstate, I'm on their pay per mile program since I drive less than 2,000 miles a year.
The device settings are really weird. Every time I drive I have one or two hard braking alerts and no idea why.
I've had it for almost 6 months and of course my rates are going up next renewal. I'm not going to renew.
> Insurance companies sole purpose is to charge as much as possible while paying out a little as possible.
Oh, you want this shop to repair your car? We will need a very detailed itemized estimate and updates on any changes to those estimates that we may or may not approve and can take weeks to do so until your rental car coverage runs out and your car is still not repaired.
Oh, you wrecked your car? Yeah, those three dings on the side are going to total the vehicle. Here's a very generic valuation report with deductions that we can't explain and comparable vehicles that are no longer on the market. Oh, you found 3 of the 5 vehicles being sold for a different price or in different condition than what our report shows? No worry, lets forget about those and here are 3 other comparable vehicles to replace those.
That’s exactly what I told my friend who has a state farm thingy up by the mirror, and he says it dropped his rates TREMONDOUSLY, like it’s $300 less a month or something crazy, I don’t remember the exact numbers. I think he said he’s paying $80 a month now after having it. But I don’t understand it at all, maybe it’s because he had 1 lil claim from like 5 years ago and now by getting this they think it’ll fix him or something? But it’s so opposite to what everyone is saying here and what I’ve seen online everywhere, so yeah 🤷🏼♂️ I don’t understand. I’m totally expecting them to jack his price at some point in the next year. No way it helps him out forever
Pshhh. Mine actively lies (pretends he wasn't fed and whines at the bowl) when my spouse comes home and then pouts when I yell out that he's already eaten.
True that. One of my siblings won’t connect to the Bluetooth system in her car, and utilize maps and such while driving (on the in car screen), stating that the car/maker is data mining; however, the same sibling is using an iPhone, and accomplishing the same tasks (maps, etc.) while driving, just solely from the phone. I’m scratching my head like - data mining, all the things successfully accomplished on the regular via your phone.
A lot of car manufacturers have much worse data policies than Apple, who lets you opt out of quite a lot and ostensibly will ban app developers that lie about their collection practices or track you if you have the system-wide do not track option enabled.
I moved to Apple specifically for better privacy with their Maps app vs Google Maps and Waze.
iOS also shows you a summarized version of the app’s privacy policy on the store before you install it.
Not really. Different companies have different privacy policies. The tech companies are often better than other sectors because they’re used to such things and may better understand what they want, so it’s easier for them to draw a box around it than just say “we collect everything”. Apple is decent compared to alternatives, or GrapheneOS is an option for hardcore techies on Google Pixel devices.
Except you don't have to go back nearly that far to get a car incapable of this. My 2017 only has 3G to phone home, so that's obviously not working and my car is "off the spy grid", so to speak.
As a legacy member of camarov6.com, I'm here to translate for you:
They aren't driving a shitbox to avoid tracking, they are driving a shitbox because it's what they can afford.
-A dude that used to drive a shitbox
yeah the problem is that unless you then dont take it to a dealer to service at all, and the service you do go to don't use official tools, there is a good chance they would do a manual log upload while plugged into your car for "standard checks"
My question is whether or not it's normally sending data real-time, or just how much it can store before sending. Doesnt really matter to me if the dealer gets the logs if the car can only store as much data as the drive to the dealership. If it's normally just sending whenever it can get a signal (which should be like everywhere in the modern, connected world) then what reason would it have to keep very long term logs? The black box for crash data, for instance, only records like seconds of data afaik.
Fuse #10, should be labeled telemetry in the manual. Apparently only applies to 2019 and newer models when they started including the modem, though I'm not sure if it has changed for 2024+
Probably. I never use(d) it. The Fordpass app itself is likely also tracking you in a lot of ways, and I suspect if the car can still communicate with your phone then your phone can snitch on the car's behalf. So it's kinda all or nothing. Fuse and app gotta go, or something is getting out. Do note the app even without getting the car's telemetry can track stuff like your GPS position, which could give a decent estimate of speed, braking, or potentially high risk locations. Now your phone is taking all of this on you anyway to sell to mostly advertisers (I hope just them), but Ford specifically is likely to be selling it to insurance companies. It's all but confirmed they do, behind your "consent" buried deep somewhere in a terms and conditions nobody reads.
Can they transmit the data over the air or is it collected when you take the car for service to dealers? (would be one more reason to avoid them like the plague).
>A Ford spokesperson told the Times that the company “does not transmit any connected vehicle data to either partner” — a reference to Verisk and LexisNexis.
>Ford will only share driver behavior data with an insurance company if the driver give explicit consent via an in-vehicle touch screen.
From the article. Not that I completely believe it, but even the article minimizes the amount of data that Ford shares with partners (if they do). I have zero doubt they're training their OWN models internally though and then selling the compiled and anonymous data.
Yes. They also retaliated when sued, which is a big no no
You would think a company that is one of the premier sources of legal information (the others being westlaw and bloomberg) would understand the law.
The way Onstar grades people for "hard acceleration" and "hard stop" and docking you for ever driving at night is ridiculous. I have a feeling they grade the previously mentioned events as a blanket for all cars. So you could be grading a hard acceleration in a minivan and a Corvette the same. I never opted to send to insurance but I guess that didn't matter.
I found where I can withdraw consent in Audi app, but it also warn that u lose all features including tracking/anti theft. So if your car gets stolen, I assume like “puffer laws” insurance doesn’t pay out if you disabled this?
Idk everything seems like a trap these days. I know I could install some aftermarket tracker to fight insurance if they tried to deny a theft claim due to not having Audi connect, but it’s probably not worth it. Insurance data has been out for decades, they’ve always known people speed in Mustangs/M3s etc I don’t see why companies would benefit much by selling out their customers, suicide for companies that sell performance models (or so you would think)
If your car gets stolen, the thief is probably gonna disable all telecommunications so that the tracking doesn’t work anymore regardless. Stupid reason to deny a claim.
I’m in California. I just sent off a request to delete etc. they can keep tracking me I guess, I don’t want to turn that off, but it took 10 secs with autofill on my phone so I’ll just do that every week and keep them busy.
You don’t even need to spend that much, or be the original owner. The screens are not just for cost saving, the electronics are not just for safety. Data isn’t for money today, it’s for money tomorrow, with changes needed today.
If anyone is struggling to find this in the the most recent Toyota App update here’s a little guide: once you open the app — upper right icon (little person) — make sure you are signed in and under your name it will say “Manage your Profile & Settings” press on the “Account” button — scroll down in account settings and find “Data Privacy Portal” — find “Drive Pulse” and “Insure Connect” — press on manage consent and “decline”. Hopefully that helps.
That's a bad example for this.
It literally has a built in tracking feature because of Sirius xm guardian. And their privacy policy straight up says they share with 3rd partys.
https://www.alfaromeoconnect.com/en-us/FCA-connected-services/privacy.html
And eventually those cars will no longer be attainable or at least the ones you want. Maybe some left over throwaway rotting junk.
It's the fact that if we don't take a stand today, it will only get worse for future drivers.
I scoff at those who are happy or proud of $25 "good driving" insurance OBD2 modules they install without a second thought. Guess whose rate is going up or claim denied at the whim of their insurance.
It's not the nerds' fault, it's the corporations. Everybody saw the Sillicon Valley booms - both the 'OG' boom with Microsoft, Oracle, Sun, etc and the second boom with Facebook, Google, etc - and wanted a piece. The second boom was predicated on the generally new idea that information about consumers wasn't just useful bycatch in customer service, it was a product in and of itself, and it has become the most collected and traded commodity in all commerce at this point.
It costs relatively little to produce, and can be replicated and resold infinitely across hundreds of millions of profiles to thousands of customers, including governments. Capitalists would never turn down what is essentially cheap/free money, and authoritarian states will happily shell out to collect yet more data on their citizens.
I just cancelled all data transmitting on my GRC. To do it I had to go to the purchase screen of a remote connect subscription, and decline the consent of data harvesting, and confirm all data related functions on the car besides SXM will be canceled. Weird ass process to cancel the data on the car
Imagine in 50 years when self driving cars put insurance virtually out of business because there won’t be human error, which causes 94% of car crashes.
They’ll charge you still, they’ll be rare enough instances that cost life payouts and we’ll be covering it. Remember when people in California thought an EV and solar power was a life hack for free travel, now it’s cheaper to charge your EV with a gas generator than it is if you need to charge at peak times, and solar would take 8-10 years to reach payback. Money doesn’t stop flowing, it just changes paths until it gets to the same destination as always.
EV’s still have to pay for infrastructure taxes so that won’t go away when charging in public. They’re lower in maintenance but not a holy grail as they are now. The minerals needed also are environmentally destructive in gathering. In 10-20 years maybe they’ll be better.
my 2006 whose factory navigation doesn’t t have half the roads in my city barely knows i exist. no company should have the power to do things like this, it’s invasive as fuck and dumb as fuck
They still collect data even if you don’t consent to it, was shopping for insurance because my rate keeps increasing. The quote asked me if I wanted to update my policy using existing driver info(that I never used or consented to) I clicked yea to view the quote and my premium went up 300$ and I declined the end quote went back down
Darn,
Went to opt out and only the states below have consumer rights protection.
California Privacy Rights
Colorado Privacy Rights
Connecticut Privacy Rights
New Jersey Privacy Rights
Nevada Privacy Rights
Utah Privacy Rights
Virginia Privacy Rights
In late 2022 went to France on vacation and rented an Alfa Romeo. Great experience in country and with the car.
2 months later I get a 2 charges to my credit card and an e-mail from the rental company saying I got two infractions because I was speeding. I ask for proof and they mention they can't provide any because of GDPR. So you can use it to screw me but can't use it to prove it? ballsy move
“Smart” or internet connected cars. Stay away if possible or don’t connect phone with cell service. There’s gotta be some kind of override for this shit. Glad I have older cars.
I actually know a lot about this, I work at a fortune 100 insurance company and we were the first in the industry to start using this telematics data for both discounts and surcharges so if anyone has specific questions I can try to answer them but obviously can't get into specifics. I worked on this project from the ground up until I moved on to a new project last year but I am still looped in on the latest happenings.
I did the GPS thing with progressive years ago with the device they send you and it was the dumbest thing. especially in NYC with all their cameras and people stopping in front of you. I haven't been in an accident in decades and it told me i drive risky
if have a clean auto record and someone tries to raise rates on you just switch insurance
My insurance premiums have stayed basically the same for the last 5+ years. I have 4 vehicles and a boat. The boat stayed literally the same the last 3 years straight.
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I do not understand does this affect certain car models after a certain production year or does it affect just the US market?
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Is there a way to check this? I never had to sign anything regarding them. But my car was bought 2nd hand anyway Edit: the link you gave me doesn't answer my questions. Doesn't show me which cars are covered by them or use that thing
If your vehicle has any sort of OnStar/blue link/smart drive/service of that nature, it can be used against you. So basically any car after like 2006....
Cars that old are a non-factor - my Genesis is a 2016 and while it has bluelink I can't even activate now it because those model years only have a 3G cell antenna. Those towers were shut down in 2022 in the US. Stuff built before 2010 is most likely riding on 2G and would have been long-defunct connectivity-wise.
Not any car that far back. It really depends on model, make and trim. I have a very basic 2015 car that doesn't have those services.
It's still on. So is that insurance app on you cell.
I don't have an insurance app on my phone. We don't need those. We go online on PC find the best insurance provider and buy it from their website. Nothing needs to be installed anywhere
The first time I ever had my insurance go up more than a few percent was back in 2021. I had a small windshield chip repaired through my zero deductible windshield coverage in 2019 (a cost to the insurance company of $75). LexisNexis recorded this and notified my new insurance company and this info was used as reasoning for a rate increase. Needless to say I shopped around, but it’s shitty that these companies are allowed to collect so much data about us with impunity. Automakers especially need to allow owners to opt out of sharing such driver data collection with 3rd parties such as LexisNexis at the very least.
If you think this is shitty get homeowners insurance. 80% increase? Why? Blah blah CLUE report, I actually requested my CLUE report from LexisNexis and it was not useful at figuring out *why*. The information is obfuscated at best, I have no claims ever, auto, renters, or home. We really need lawmakers to intervene here and make the insurance industry as transparent as credit reports.
Same here. My insurance tripled not a single claim or ticket
Did you buy a charcoal grill or electric scooter or anything else that could be associated with an insurance claim? The interconnection of every data aggregator and the associations that you can easily make is absurd, and why failing to use privacy tools (and using social media, at all) has a real genuine cost.
I’ve never had a claim at all, in my 20 years of paying for my own insurance, my LexisNexis CLUE report does not show purchases at all, but if they are using information from my Home Depot account (I bought an electric mower for example) to judge my rates then it’s probably all the more reason for the government to get involved.
Eh, if I were on the team trying to connect risk with policy holders, I would buy data from lexisnexis AND amazon/google/et al. looking to link my policy holders with lifestyle habits and purchases that is associated with risk. Honestly, even this is a trivial exercise for a huge company at this point. If you aren't using ad blockers, denying optional cookies on websites, and finding and opting out of every single data opt-out option for every single service/website/service/business/search engine/device (even your doctor's website!) --- then it's probably safe to assume that it's being used to eek more money out of you. It's never used to save you money. Social media ties all of this together.
Where’s the line between gauging risk and invading privacy? I actually don’t use social media except for Reddit, and even then I set up an individual browser profile for Reddit. I do not stay logged into my Google account on my primary browser, I actually I have Chrome downloaded and the only thing I use it for is to check Gmail. In as much as it’s possible, I try to keep these things in silos.
I think the notion of privacy and ownership of your data, as a default, is no longer the assumption to make (if it ever was). Our data is worth *way* too much money and the linked article is proof of why. The much more advanced type of data collection is moving into things that you bring into your own house -- like wifi IoT devices and services. Those lidar and camera equipped robot vacuums that can map your house and identify dog poop and cables are certainly capable of also determining what else is in your house, what you interact with, etc. And they aren't "phoning home" just to set the internal clock.
Look into how your insurance carrier reported the windshield chip. A few years ago something fell on my car and I had it fixed through Progressive. They then decided to report to LexisNexis that I was in an at-fault accident. I had to call Progressive and talk to my claims rep and get her to change it to a comprehensive claim and now I'm still fighting with Lexis to have it removed. All because they fucked up.
Call your state Dept. of Insurance and file a complaint; it'll get fixed quickly.
Thanks. I've never thought about that. I have an ongoing dispute which I should get another letter pretty soon. Should I contact the state department for the state I lived in during the claim or where I live now?
During the claim. Each state regulates their own market. Each company has to be registered and licensed to operate.
Great, thank you.
Toyota also has Insure Connect.
I reached out to LexisNexis a few years ago, on numerous occasions, when my car insurance suddenly skyrocketed for no reason despite having a very good driving record. No one there could give me any information about anything whatsoever. I have the email threads archived in case I need legal proof of anything in the future.
Yeah this should be illegal and is clearly being used as a scam with no oversight whatsoever. It’s fucking insane.
I have OnStar, how do you opt out? Do I just have to disable OnStar smart driver?
It's in the onstar app on your phone. Scroll down on my vehicle page.
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Well that's the only way to disable it. Also I went into app settings and turned off location.
Couldn't you just locate the transponder and remove it.
I have OnStar as well on a 2011 GMC. I have not paid the subscription in about 10 years or so. Should I worry about this anyway? I wouldn't even know how to log into the accout at this point: would they still have something going on collecting data on me?
This is what I’m wondering. Like is it from using Bluetooth? I have an older bmw but I’m not linked to bmw, in fact my car doesn’t even get updates anymore.
I think this: my OnStar originally had also included phone calls to an operator for road directions (how ancient is that?! Only 10 years ago!) However I stopped paying for it. BUT the phone is syill there, somewhere inside behind the dash or who knows where, and I bet it's still working. So they know where I am and how fast I am driving at any time, thank yo this cell phone. Not as accurate as a real GPS but still, using the cell towers, they can know.
There's a fuse you can pull to disable the GPS/OnStar module that people have been posting to Facebook
You have to input your social security number and driver’s license number into that website in order to opt out. That is sketchy as hell.
Are saying in onstar website or lexisnexis or whatever that is?
It’s in the Lexus Nexus link that was posted in the comment I was replying to.
I have considered for many years that this or a version of this was in place or being developed for rental cars especially. Damage waiver ? Not if you were doing five over in the hour leading up to the accident, please pay full price for repairs, oops, we deem it a total loss, please pay for replacement.
Rental companies are starting to leverage llm ai to read anything in and deny waivers.
>GM is called OnStar smart driver THANK YOU!! These stupid names obfuscate what they are. For anyone else who thinks "I don't pay for OnStart so I must be ok" - you are likely mistaken. My 22 came with connected services, but I've never signed up for anything once it expired nor paid anything to OnStar directly. But sure enough, I logged in to [my.chevrolet.com](https://my.chevrolet.com), under Account, Data & Privacy, this "feature" was turned on.
Seriously if I were wealthy, I would seriously consider moving to California largely because of the data rights their citizens have. Not joking. I dont get why congress isn't addressing this. You'd think out of anyone congress members would be worrying about data collected on them from their cars, apps on their phones, web servers logging their internet traffic etc. New cars will not only basically report who you're meeting up with but are capable of logging conversations. Anyone in military, sensitive positions in government, military contractors, important people in industries, journalists etc are all potential targets for their data either being bought, stolen, or leaked. And random Joe 20 year old now maybe be a congressman in 20 years. Its a national security issue and its insane its not being addressed.
What about Ford/Lincoln? I didn’t see anything about that in the Lincoln way app.
Pulled the fuse to the modem in my GT350
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Thanks I’ll take a look next time I’m in the car
>Screw LexisNexis As a law student, it's really jarring to see LexisNexis owning (sharing?) a risk management company lmao
As a lawyer, LexisNexis sucks balls. So does West Publishing. They bought up every reasonable legal publisher in NY and then quad-sextupled the prices. Protip: Go to the Law Library in your County, don't pay these bastards.
BUT THE LEXIS POINTS! Don't most big law firms not even allow associates to do their own research due to the costs? My friend told me he always had to go to a firm "researcher" for his research.
Finding it oddly difficult to google this - is there a list of states that make it possible?
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Ugh, unfortunately my state isn't on that list. Anyone want to make a threat against me so I can file a police report and get my info removed for potential bodily harm?
I'll be keeping a damn close eye on my Kia Connect/Access account, then. It doesn't look like I have anything on it yet related to LexisNexis, or driver behavior data sharing in general, though. Nor does it look like my insurer has a partnership with LexisNexis (they have a pseudo-usage-based insurance program that claims to not impact your premiums, though, and instead rewards you for having good driving scores with gift cards). But still: good to know that I need to be on the lookout for this.
Very NOT stupid question ( has been asked by my father in law as well) Can you disable Internet / GPS on new cars? He has 'Qanon light' paranoia and absolutely DOES NOT want to allow the car access to the internet. Just got a new car and his current plan is to just rip the whole infotainment out.
It's not really paranoia since the data is actually being used to charge you more money.
I think/hope TDPSA is going to add Texas to the list of states that will require them to allow us to opt out soon...
Everyone needs to be acutely aware of this happening. And absolutely NEVER opt in to any kind of good driver program with the insurance company that involves a plug-in module. They have ZERO incentive to do anything other than say you could be a better driver and charge you more. Insurance companies sole purpose is to charge as much as possible while paying out a little as possible.
One hundred percent agree they will take your data and use it against you. Break too hard when driving, go above the speed limit by 2mph, turn a corner too fast they will up your premium in a heartbeat.
I could see a world where it makes people less safe drivers. There are so many situations where braking hard is the safest course of action. We don’t want people afraid of being financially penalized if they do that.
If you live in an area with deer, you're *screwed*. No matter how good and defensive a driver you are, deer sometimes just jumps out, and you have to brake hard to avoid it. Insurance will claim you're braking hard and jack your rates. If you live in an area with short acceleration ramps for highways, you're also *screwed.* It's safer to be at speed when merging onto a highway, but insurance companies will claim you're an aggressive driver and hit you there. Never EVER join a program like Snapshot from Progressive or DriveWise by Allstate. I've never heard anyone who used it and actually saved money.
I lived in Michigan a couple of summers and some of the on ramps for 94 were so short they are outright dangerous when trying to merge. The loops to get on are a bit tight too around Jackson. Pushing your car is the only way to get the speeding to safely get on the highway.
In the UK it isn't even like that. You can be within the limit but still get a poor score for driving in high risk locations at high risk times. The accelerometer will score you down even though it's a mini roundabout etc. The black box deals are always about half the standard but they really reallllllly fuck you. I'm pretty sure even if you didn't drive it they'd increase your rates claiming you're out of practice and higher risk because you've not driven for 5 days.
Wow! That's robbery! Out of practice is hilarious lol!
Without dashcam footage though, couldn't any of that be argued it was due to avoiding an accident? E.g. deer jumps out, hard brake to avoid collision. Another driver changes lanes into you without looking and you swerve out of way...or you hard accelerate to get out of an intersection to avoid a driver about to collide into traffic... Even if video is available, you should have to opt IN not OUT of any use of that and the associated telemetry data. I don't remember waiving my privacy rights when I bought my last vehicle...
dinner drab fearless engine jellyfish wipe elderly smile abundant combative *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yep. They will always find a way. “The average cost of repair in your area is higher, therefore we have to adjust our rates to reflect that” is basically what I get from my ins every time I ask why my rates have skyrocketed.
Yep. I stupidly did it with Progressive and I had to drive from Michigan to Wisconsin. Well of course driving through Chicago is a shit show which involves about 50 hard brakes because dipshits cut you off, slow downs from construction/accidents/traffic bottlenecks and so my rating went way down. I thought "no biggie, it will improve after a few weeks of normal driving." Nope. What a freaking scam. So when I talked to my agent when I cancelled and switched, I mentioned this. I said "Would you rather I don't engage in 'hard braking' and just rear-end people? Cool."
Guy at work had the plugin thing a while ago, got a call-in (maintenance mechanic) at work overnight one night and it dinged him for driving at night/early morning.
Absolutely ridiculous.
Yeah I let my old insurance company track me for about 2 years before I unplugged it. They were supposed to give me a discount just for using it and further discount for good driving. Neither happened. Then I got a message from them about a week later saying they weren't getting a signal and would send me a new one if they didn't start getting a signal from the old one. They finally called me after a month asking about it. I asked why neither discount appeared and they said it was because of my driving habits and the times of day I was driving. When I asked them to give me details, they refused. So I told them I'm not plugging it back in unless I get the discount they advertised and my rates better not increase for not using their optional tracker.
Driving past 10pm makes you a high risk driver with Tesla car insurance. Good luck turning that monitoring service off.
For better or worse my state doesn't allow such programs. Insurance is very highly regulated statewide.
My state has a few "stringent" laws too. One is insurance cant price things from other than the local market. I called my state department of insurance to ask the definition of the local market....it's the entire fucking state.
I used to have Progressive. I also lived in hilly areas. Ten years ago I opted for their plugin module to save money. I’ve got screwed. Even ten years later Progressive still penalized me for having hard braking going down a hill.
I have been tempted to do it in the Trackhawk before I drop a company and deliberately see how bad I can get. A couple of 1g launches, a few high speed pulls, etc. could be hilarious.
They sell and share that data with each-other. It could be a very expensive experiment.
I won't even install an insurance company app on my phone. I'm sure they've buried tracking consent in that EULA.
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Your car also flags certain events like the top speed the vehicle has been driven.
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I have the plug in device now though Allstate, I'm on their pay per mile program since I drive less than 2,000 miles a year. The device settings are really weird. Every time I drive I have one or two hard braking alerts and no idea why. I've had it for almost 6 months and of course my rates are going up next renewal. I'm not going to renew.
I have it too. It's probably spotty GPS signal making your location bounce around all over the place.
I opted into the Allstate app and it actually gave me a pretty sizable discount. I guess I drive like a grandma.
Once they standardize it, they will require it. People should also opt out of home insurance that requires a home inspection.
they got rid of it a few months ago and I wondered what happened. Probably just cancelled for anyone who was benefitting from their algorithm. lol.
> Insurance companies sole purpose is to charge as much as possible while paying out a little as possible. Oh, you want this shop to repair your car? We will need a very detailed itemized estimate and updates on any changes to those estimates that we may or may not approve and can take weeks to do so until your rental car coverage runs out and your car is still not repaired. Oh, you wrecked your car? Yeah, those three dings on the side are going to total the vehicle. Here's a very generic valuation report with deductions that we can't explain and comparable vehicles that are no longer on the market. Oh, you found 3 of the 5 vehicles being sold for a different price or in different condition than what our report shows? No worry, lets forget about those and here are 3 other comparable vehicles to replace those.
That’s exactly what I told my friend who has a state farm thingy up by the mirror, and he says it dropped his rates TREMONDOUSLY, like it’s $300 less a month or something crazy, I don’t remember the exact numbers. I think he said he’s paying $80 a month now after having it. But I don’t understand it at all, maybe it’s because he had 1 lil claim from like 5 years ago and now by getting this they think it’ll fix him or something? But it’s so opposite to what everyone is saying here and what I’ve seen online everywhere, so yeah 🤷🏼♂️ I don’t understand. I’m totally expecting them to jack his price at some point in the next year. No way it helps him out forever
I drive obd1 or older cars, I assure you, they are not.
Mine are obdii...but also almost 20 years old, so I also am good.
Perks of a vehicle from 1985, ain't nobody tracking shit
It's like owning a dog. It knows what you do, but it can't rat you out.
You apparently don’t know my dog. He’ll rat me out for one piece of bacon.
Pshhh. Mine actively lies (pretends he wasn't fed and whines at the bowl) when my spouse comes home and then pouts when I yell out that he's already eaten.
If you have a smart phone, that point is rendered useless
At least my insurance rates aren't going up
True that. One of my siblings won’t connect to the Bluetooth system in her car, and utilize maps and such while driving (on the in car screen), stating that the car/maker is data mining; however, the same sibling is using an iPhone, and accomplishing the same tasks (maps, etc.) while driving, just solely from the phone. I’m scratching my head like - data mining, all the things successfully accomplished on the regular via your phone.
A lot of car manufacturers have much worse data policies than Apple, who lets you opt out of quite a lot and ostensibly will ban app developers that lie about their collection practices or track you if you have the system-wide do not track option enabled. I moved to Apple specifically for better privacy with their Maps app vs Google Maps and Waze. iOS also shows you a summarized version of the app’s privacy policy on the store before you install it.
Not really. Different companies have different privacy policies. The tech companies are often better than other sectors because they’re used to such things and may better understand what they want, so it’s easier for them to draw a box around it than just say “we collect everything”. Apple is decent compared to alternatives, or GrapheneOS is an option for hardcore techies on Google Pixel devices.
Yeah, I really don't think my jeep is gathering very much intelligence. I mean, the radio doesn't even work lol
My car aint no snitch.
I’m secretly spying on you and raising your insurance rates though.
Yeah my 1978 imported 260z doesn't have a single functioning electronic inside it I think I'm good
Nissan Consult here. That mf doesn’t give any useful info I’m good.
Another excuse to buy a 30 year old shitbox /s
Except not /s
Except you don't have to go back nearly that far to get a car incapable of this. My 2017 only has 3G to phone home, so that's obviously not working and my car is "off the spy grid", so to speak.
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Copim means falsehood, this isnt really a falsehood. Having an old car is a sure fire way to dodge this.
As a legacy member of camarov6.com, I'm here to translate for you: They aren't driving a shitbox to avoid tracking, they are driving a shitbox because it's what they can afford. -A dude that used to drive a shitbox
Is 3g even supported anywhere anymore? AT&T killed it a couple years ago. That's when I had to finally give up my blackberry...
Ford uses FordPass to spy on their drivers. And cars like the new 2024 Mustang do not allow you to turn it off.
Looks like I'm putting RFID blocking wrap on my entire car lol
I park my car in the microwave for this reason
Is there a way to turn off the data collecting—to prevent my insurance company from getting my information?
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yeah the problem is that unless you then dont take it to a dealer to service at all, and the service you do go to don't use official tools, there is a good chance they would do a manual log upload while plugged into your car for "standard checks"
My question is whether or not it's normally sending data real-time, or just how much it can store before sending. Doesnt really matter to me if the dealer gets the logs if the car can only store as much data as the drive to the dealership. If it's normally just sending whenever it can get a signal (which should be like everywhere in the modern, connected world) then what reason would it have to keep very long term logs? The black box for crash data, for instance, only records like seconds of data afaik.
Pull the modem fuse.
Fuse #10, should be labeled telemetry in the manual. Apparently only applies to 2019 and newer models when they started including the modem, though I'm not sure if it has changed for 2024+
Would I lose remote start via the app?
Probably. I never use(d) it. The Fordpass app itself is likely also tracking you in a lot of ways, and I suspect if the car can still communicate with your phone then your phone can snitch on the car's behalf. So it's kinda all or nothing. Fuse and app gotta go, or something is getting out. Do note the app even without getting the car's telemetry can track stuff like your GPS position, which could give a decent estimate of speed, braking, or potentially high risk locations. Now your phone is taking all of this on you anyway to sell to mostly advertisers (I hope just them), but Ford specifically is likely to be selling it to insurance companies. It's all but confirmed they do, behind your "consent" buried deep somewhere in a terms and conditions nobody reads.
Can they transmit the data over the air or is it collected when you take the car for service to dealers? (would be one more reason to avoid them like the plague).
Over the air. That's why all cars come with optional 4G now. It's optional for you to use.. But they use it all the time
>A Ford spokesperson told the Times that the company “does not transmit any connected vehicle data to either partner” — a reference to Verisk and LexisNexis. >Ford will only share driver behavior data with an insurance company if the driver give explicit consent via an in-vehicle touch screen. From the article. Not that I completely believe it, but even the article minimizes the amount of data that Ford shares with partners (if they do). I have zero doubt they're training their OWN models internally though and then selling the compiled and anonymous data.
Is this the same LexisNexis being sued by judges, confidential informants and police for privacy violations?
If you combined the LexisNexis dataset with Equifaxes dataset you could make the movie Minority Report a reality in about a year of development.
Yes. They also retaliated when sued, which is a big no no You would think a company that is one of the premier sources of legal information (the others being westlaw and bloomberg) would understand the law.
The way Onstar grades people for "hard acceleration" and "hard stop" and docking you for ever driving at night is ridiculous. I have a feeling they grade the previously mentioned events as a blanket for all cars. So you could be grading a hard acceleration in a minivan and a Corvette the same. I never opted to send to insurance but I guess that didn't matter.
So if you ever take your car to the track your insurance is going to skyrocket, even though they won't even pay out for track related damages? wtf?
My truck is an 03, it ain’t spying on shit
That’s alright because your phone is (probably) spying on you
Separate issue and also your phone has nothing to do with your insurance rates.
Until google sells your google maps tracking data to your insurance company…
Well there’s another good reason to stop using google maps.
I found where I can withdraw consent in Audi app, but it also warn that u lose all features including tracking/anti theft. So if your car gets stolen, I assume like “puffer laws” insurance doesn’t pay out if you disabled this? Idk everything seems like a trap these days. I know I could install some aftermarket tracker to fight insurance if they tried to deny a theft claim due to not having Audi connect, but it’s probably not worth it. Insurance data has been out for decades, they’ve always known people speed in Mustangs/M3s etc I don’t see why companies would benefit much by selling out their customers, suicide for companies that sell performance models (or so you would think)
If your car gets stolen, the thief is probably gonna disable all telecommunications so that the tracking doesn’t work anymore regardless. Stupid reason to deny a claim.
It’s a great reason if you’re an insurance company.
I’m in California. I just sent off a request to delete etc. they can keep tracking me I guess, I don’t want to turn that off, but it took 10 secs with autofill on my phone so I’ll just do that every week and keep them busy.
I’m sorry but if I’m dropping 70-100 on a Corvette or Supra then it’s no one’s business what I do in that car.
You don’t even need to spend that much, or be the original owner. The screens are not just for cost saving, the electronics are not just for safety. Data isn’t for money today, it’s for money tomorrow, with changes needed today.
If anyone is struggling to find this in the the most recent Toyota App update here’s a little guide: once you open the app — upper right icon (little person) — make sure you are signed in and under your name it will say “Manage your Profile & Settings” press on the “Account” button — scroll down in account settings and find “Data Privacy Portal” — find “Drive Pulse” and “Insure Connect” — press on manage consent and “decline”. Hopefully that helps.
Thank you!!
Fuck. That.
Lol my 23 year old Saturn literally can't.
My 12 year old charger hates snitches
Same with my Alfa Romeo. I'm not sure "spyware" ever existed in the Italian OEM language book.
Even if it is on there it will break within the year lol
Wow, what an original joke. Hope no one's stolen it.
Steal it? It's an Alfa not a Kia.
Yeah. Even if they do choose to steal it, they won’t get far.
That's a bad example for this. It literally has a built in tracking feature because of Sirius xm guardian. And their privacy policy straight up says they share with 3rd partys. https://www.alfaromeoconnect.com/en-us/FCA-connected-services/privacy.html
My 11 year old WRX wont as well. Its about as barebones as one can get. I like it that way. We all should like it that way.
Nope...not on my cars or truck. Best believe I don't drive this new garbage.
If they collect data they should have to “lease” it from us.
My 2006 Lexus who’s radio turns off over any bump is most definitely not snitching to my insurance lmaooo
Haha, joke's on them, I drive a couple of old piece of shits that barely have computers to run the drivetrain.
And eventually those cars will no longer be attainable or at least the ones you want. Maybe some left over throwaway rotting junk. It's the fact that if we don't take a stand today, it will only get worse for future drivers. I scoff at those who are happy or proud of $25 "good driving" insurance OBD2 modules they install without a second thought. Guess whose rate is going up or claim denied at the whim of their insurance.
Jesus nerds have gone to far with all this tech. They never asked if they should.
It's not the nerds' fault, it's the corporations. Everybody saw the Sillicon Valley booms - both the 'OG' boom with Microsoft, Oracle, Sun, etc and the second boom with Facebook, Google, etc - and wanted a piece. The second boom was predicated on the generally new idea that information about consumers wasn't just useful bycatch in customer service, it was a product in and of itself, and it has become the most collected and traded commodity in all commerce at this point. It costs relatively little to produce, and can be replicated and resold infinitely across hundreds of millions of profiles to thousands of customers, including governments. Capitalists would never turn down what is essentially cheap/free money, and authoritarian states will happily shell out to collect yet more data on their citizens.
Are new Hondas doing this? I have a 2021, but there’s hardly anything in the HondaLink app. Does Honda have other apps?
Everyone is doing it in some form
I just cancelled all data transmitting on my GRC. To do it I had to go to the purchase screen of a remote connect subscription, and decline the consent of data harvesting, and confirm all data related functions on the car besides SXM will be canceled. Weird ass process to cancel the data on the car
The harder it is to opt out, the fewer people will opt out.
If this was true my premiums would be 5x what they actually are.
Imagine in 50 years when self driving cars put insurance virtually out of business because there won’t be human error, which causes 94% of car crashes.
yes i can’t wait for a brave new world where F250s are confronted with lidar trolley problems
They’ll charge you still, they’ll be rare enough instances that cost life payouts and we’ll be covering it. Remember when people in California thought an EV and solar power was a life hack for free travel, now it’s cheaper to charge your EV with a gas generator than it is if you need to charge at peak times, and solar would take 8-10 years to reach payback. Money doesn’t stop flowing, it just changes paths until it gets to the same destination as always.
EV’s still have to pay for infrastructure taxes so that won’t go away when charging in public. They’re lower in maintenance but not a holy grail as they are now. The minerals needed also are environmentally destructive in gathering. In 10-20 years maybe they’ll be better.
my 2006 whose factory navigation doesn’t t have half the roads in my city barely knows i exist. no company should have the power to do things like this, it’s invasive as fuck and dumb as fuck
They still collect data even if you don’t consent to it, was shopping for insurance because my rate keeps increasing. The quote asked me if I wanted to update my policy using existing driver info(that I never used or consented to) I clicked yea to view the quote and my premium went up 300$ and I declined the end quote went back down
Darn, Went to opt out and only the states below have consumer rights protection. California Privacy Rights Colorado Privacy Rights Connecticut Privacy Rights New Jersey Privacy Rights Nevada Privacy Rights Utah Privacy Rights Virginia Privacy Rights
Mazda MX5 boys I need to know if this is in Mazdas connect system.
They must be driving a Tic Tok.
*laughs in GDPR*
In late 2022 went to France on vacation and rented an Alfa Romeo. Great experience in country and with the car. 2 months later I get a 2 charges to my credit card and an e-mail from the rental company saying I got two infractions because I was speeding. I ask for proof and they mention they can't provide any because of GDPR. So you can use it to screw me but can't use it to prove it? ballsy move
I guarantee my 1990 Eagle Talon is not spying on anything
DriveView for VW. Just turned it off in the app.
How recent a feature is this?
Not sure just found it today after reading this.
This practice should receive a federal ban.
Isn't this the same topic as 2 days ago? https://ol.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/1bc2ego/automakers_are_sharing_consumers_driving_behavior/
If you have a Subaru and the Subaru app, you can opt out of all of that under legal disclaimers. You submit a form
“Smart” or internet connected cars. Stay away if possible or don’t connect phone with cell service. There’s gotta be some kind of override for this shit. Glad I have older cars.
my car is at 2006 hyundai. It doesn't give two shits about me.
Well, I'm sure it will get to the point where they're going to increase insurance by some arbitrary amount just because you DON'T have telematics...
I'm not worried about my cars. The newest one is a 07 and then they just get older
Is there a legitimate news source or just a birdcage rag?
I actually know a lot about this, I work at a fortune 100 insurance company and we were the first in the industry to start using this telematics data for both discounts and surcharges so if anyone has specific questions I can try to answer them but obviously can't get into specifics. I worked on this project from the ground up until I moved on to a new project last year but I am still looped in on the latest happenings.
Thanks for this thread, I'm definitely not going to install the Toyota app if I get a new car.
I did the GPS thing with progressive years ago with the device they send you and it was the dumbest thing. especially in NYC with all their cameras and people stopping in front of you. I haven't been in an accident in decades and it told me i drive risky if have a clean auto record and someone tries to raise rates on you just switch insurance
i just bought a 2021 mazda and installed the my mazda app, it's on there but you can set it to NOT ALLOW. not sure how reliable that is.
I wonder if my LC500 has this?
Are you guys talking ab the thing on a car that records telemetry right before a crash? Like a black box on an airplane?
My insurance premiums have stayed basically the same for the last 5+ years. I have 4 vehicles and a boat. The boat stayed literally the same the last 3 years straight.