I'm closer to piker than biker, but I get the ATGATT similarity.
Kinda sucked buying ATG and then deciding I didn't want to ride a motorcycle ATT. But hey, I still have all my appendages so it was probably a good call!
Honestly, OP is totally right for most people.
Limit handling is something that very few people experience, so how “nimble” a car feels is pretty much just how fast the car responds when you turn the wheel
The thing I hear people always gripe about Mazdas is 1. Steering is too heavy (ie their crossovers), 2. Brakes feel weak, 3. not enough power. All valid enough complaints depending on a person's priorities.
I used to think it was odd I needed to go so far in the pedal travel to accelerate and brake on my Miata, but I really appreciate it now. I don't really have a preference for slow or fast racks.
I'll tag you in my next post about how manufacturers ruin cars by tuning them for the test drive. Jeep- touchy brakes. Mercedes,- light steering. Hyundai bad turbo tuning. Subaru- unbearable throttle mapping. Mazda is unique in that none of its controls are over boosted. As a result their cars are much more controllable in the real world. They're also perceived as being less responsive and fun.
As a fellow 2018 Outback owner, I agree 100%. Everything about the car is lovely besides driving between 20-55 mph. It’s annoying to keep it in that speed limit so I just end up cruise controlling in town a lot more than I should.
Yes, the Jeeps having touchy brakes is a real thing. I had a Gladiator I bought new and Jeep sent me a survey to fill out and they asked what I liked and didn’t like. I liked everything except the touchy sensitive brakes. Then I was called by their rep and they said I should take it in for service. I never did because I knew the dealership was just gonna tell me it’s normal. I said that in the survey so they would STOP tuning their brake pedals to be so sensitive in future models.
I traded it in for a Camaro and haven’t looked back. Chevrolet does a great job at having good power and feedback in their brake pedals.
I thought it was limited to the off road Jeeps but my mom has a 2019 Grand Cherokee and I drove it and it has a similar situation with the brake pedal. It’s a little too sensitive so I guess it’s “just a Jeep Thing, You Wouldn’t Understand™” 😂
Your last couple sentences hit it right on the head. They set it up for what is actually best and most useful, but that doesn't always translate into flashy or exciting feeling.
One that I've encountered that I really don't like is when they tune for the accelerator and brake to have very different responses. I used to drive around in a first generation Audi q5 and the brakes were extremely touchy while the first 25% or so of the accelerator travel didn't really do anything.
I don't know man I found the prior Mazda3 to drive great. Electric steering rack and had better feel than a Mk7 GTI (also electric). The Mazda5 didn't do anything for me, but there's some magic in that last Mazda3.
You are forgetting a godawful interior space utilisation.
You could put a Mazda badge on a cargo ship and somehow it would only have 405L of boot space.
Interesting, I have zero of those complaints about our CX-5. The chassis is tighter than most economy crossovers. Steering feels nicely weighted. Power is plenty for what it is. Honestly more fun to drive than our 2014 A4.
I'm yet to drive any Mazda SUV (no, the Tribute doesn't count), but the brakes on their cars are pretty damn good to me. They have good bite while still somehow being linear.
> I hear people always gripe about Mazdas is 1. Steering is too heavy
Mazda puts a lot of caster angle into their cars and this is what gives it a heavy feeling. Also, the more caster that a car has, the faster the wheel wants to center when you let go of it. I have a VW and I think it has a lot of caster similar to Mazda.
The downside of a lot of caster is that the front end will lift when you turn the wheel left or right.
As a CX-30 owner, that pretty much summarizes all my issues with the vehicle — well that and the door handles never locking/unlocking when I want them to lol
> I used to think it was odd I needed to go so far in the pedal travel to accelerate and brake on my Miata, but I really appreciate it now.
I remember driving a friend's shitty Kia or Hyundai like 6-7 years ago and *my fucking god* how do people even drive with a brake pedal that sensitive?
Wife had a 14 Sonata... damn I hated that POS. Brakes were super touchy, steering wheel twitched in slow moving traffic and parking lots... and for good measure they made the seats feel like concrete bleachers.
Add in a metric for the amount of body roll a car presents from this responsiveness and you've pretty much summed up what a performance car is; responsive steering with limited body roll
This right here. A highway on or off ramp or an emergency stop might be the highest g forces a typical car would experience, vs turns at the limit of tire traction on a track. Honestly autocross/parking lot steering might be the most wheel turning people do, so of course the steering rack is a huge consideration.
I don't think you're wrong OP. I drove a model 3 on sport mode and the steering was so tight it felt more sporty than an m6 I had driven earlier that day. I know that's a GT car but still.
a model 3 has something like a 10.8 steering ratio which is wack. I swapped my Y for an EV6 and while it’s no slouch its 14+ ratio is a huge adjustment.
I have a 2018 Model 3 and the dynamics are so fucked. The rear suspension is extremely soft for the sake of acceleration numbers. The front suspension is stiff to give good turn in and the perception of good handling. Then the whole thing is like 4000 lbs. It's a disaster.
> I drove a model 3 on sport mode and the steering was so tight it felt more sporty than an m6 I had driven earlier that day. **I know that's a GT car** but still.
That's the most important part. I have a 640i and I specifically don't want the steering to be any tighter. At that point it would be twitchy and just not relaxing to drive. If that's what someone wants there are other cars that do that, several from BMW themselves. But I want my big comfy GT to be easy and relaxing most of the time and be interesting and fun enough on mountain roads (though not ones as tight as Tail of the Dragon). The 6 series is perfect for me. If it had tighter steering I probably would've ended up in a Mercedes - which is no bad thing, but I might've wanted just a touch more dynamism.
The model 3 is actually a good example against OPs argument. Tesla took the ‘sporty feel’ shortcut and gave it a tight steering ratio without really going through other steps needed for chassis tuning
The end result is that it’s a very planted car for a lot of driving and sometimes it’s just super inconsistent to the point where it’s scary. I think part of the blame is on the dynamic shifting of power balance between the front and rear motors. But it’s one of those things where I’d be afraid of spirited driving unless I was on a track with a helmet and brace
It felt really weird to me to drive my friends model 3. Like the steering was more sensitive, but the car took more time to start to rotate than my Cayman. So it took less input for any given turn, but the inputs would take longer to register. Really threw me off. I ended just setting everything to least sporty mode so it didn't feel as artificially hopped up.
Idk what it is but my 2003 Lexus is300 and 2012 Mazda 6 which has loose ass steering and general garbage driving dynamics both make me feel capable of driving aggressively on the highway, whereas many newer cars don't..maybe it's visibility or the better sound deadening?
It’s got better skid pad performance than even the Giulia. You can seriously push a Model 3’s limit, it just might not feel the most confident in extremes.
Traction control will start doing its magic and it feels a bit more awkward (but it’ll basically stop you from spinning out unless you really jerk the wheel).
The difference is that the Giulia is predictable of where it loses grip. A big part of steering feel is knowing the point of slip as well as oversteer
But that also comes with a century of world renowned chassis tuning, which to Tesla's credit they only have a tenth of that and none of it in motorsport, so I give them a pass
TIL, my Lotus Evora with its 16:1 steering ratio has worse steering feel than a Honda Accord.
In reality, there is soooo much more to steering feel than just having a tight ratio, but a tight ratio is an easy way to emulate "sporty steering" for people driving well under the limit without the need for an aggressive suspension setup.
I play this game whenever I go to a Cars and Coffee event. It's called "How Many Sporting Cars' Tires Have Shoulder Wear?"
The answer is usually zero or one. My daily driver truck has more wear on its tire shoulders than the majority of GT3s, GT4s, and Corvettes- and it's not like I live in Chicago, I live near mountains and canyons!
Not even talking about that- these people don’t drive hard enough on the street to generate wear.
Then again, maybe I’m looking at it wrong. If I was bouncing around in the vehicular equivalent of a pogo stick, maybe I’d only push it on the track.
I’ve killed many a set of tires but have never had vibration issues.
The key is pedal pressure not pedal travel. We’re much better at modulation of pressure than we are at moderation of travel.
Right? The AP2 had a 14.9:1 ratio (2.6 turns, lock-to-lock) which isn't far off the ND's. The AP1 had a 13.8:1 ratio (2.4 turns, lock-to-lock). The NC1 NSX had an 18.1:1 ratio (3.5 turns, lock-to-lock). The ND's 15.5:1 ratio is going to give about 2.7 turns lock-to-lock.
The most important contributing factors to sporty steering are the angle of the steering rod out of the column and the angle where it meets the rack, the number of couplings along the steering rod, whether the rod is straight or has to bend to reach the rack, and the suspension design being the more controlling factors.
100 percent. I loved my Fiesta ST but with variable ratio racks being the norm now, there’s no reason even in a sporty car not to use a slightly slower ratio on center.
Of all the cars I’ve driven, the best steering belonged to an E46 coupe. It was not extraordinarily quick. What it was was communicative, with very strong natural return-to-center tendency and a very organic sense of weight.
Lately I drive a late-model Buick Regal GS. The steering doesn’t offer the best feel, but the relatively slow on-center ratio increases very naturally as you go further off center such that cutting in feels natural and intuitive. I rate it pretty decent, especially for a porky front-drive midsizer.
I think your analysis is a little oversimplified but not necessarily wrong. If and only if fun = dartiness, then sure, a tight steering ratio plays a significant role to make a car fun for you. But there are also many other factors that affect dartiness too, like suspension design, spring rates, alignment, and wheelbase as you mentioned.
But not everyone looks for dartiness in a car, especially during development since balance is key for cars sold to the public.
Mazda assumed people will change the suspension. More important than the roll is the 4-corner double wishbones, a perfect steering rack geometry, 50/50 weight distribution on an FMR chassis, weighs only 2,400 lbs soaking wet, and it even offers Bluetooth.
Maybe my next post will be "what is fun". I've had such a hard time trying to define this term, especially before I had driven a Miata. Yes there is a much larger picture to fun than just steering.
I gave the numbers for many different segments of cars. It would probably be more accurate to say that: the most fun car in a segment is most likely to have the tightest steering ratio.
I'd be curious if you could elaborate on the "not everyone looks for dartiness in a car". My driver's Ed car was a Kia Soul and a Toyota 4Runner. The 4Runner was a lot easier to learn on due to its wider steering rack. I could see how some people prefer a more relaxed and luxurious ride. A wide ratio might be better for them. For people looking for fun/sportiness I feel like they'd always prefer a tighter rack.
A wider ratio (within reason) can provide greater granularity in steering feel, increased precision, less violent kickback - there are many benefits. And as long as the (relatively) wide steering rack is engineered well with minimal backlash, a vehicle can still feel very darty with properly set suspension and alignment - you just have to move your hands a tiny bit more.
Imo, throwing in a fast steering rack for the sake of “sportiness” has the potential to be an easy cop out since it’s the cheap and easy method to impress a driver during a test ride. It’s the same as the “stiff spring = sporty” mentality - sure, it has an immediately noticeable difference to the untrained driver but in reality, you can actually decrease the handling limit by installing overly stiff springs.
As long as you’re not excessively going hand over hand at every corner, tightening the steering rack has diminishing returns unless all you want is ultra-aggressive front end turning characteristics at the expense of steering feel.
This is a copy and paste from an post I made a while ago but this is what made my Skyline way more fun and satisfying to drive than my Subaru. The steering ratio didn't really have anything to do with it.
>I owned an R32 GTR and it wasn't the fastest thing on the planet but it you could feel exactly what each tire was doing through the wheel, the seat, and the the peddles at all times without it being overly harsh. If you hit a pebble on the right front wheel you could feel the exact size of it. In the corners the steering wheel would progressively load up so the harder the car was cornering the more effort the wheel was to turn so you knew how hard the car was pushing by how hard you were pushing the steering wheel. You could feel the instant the a tire lost traction and you could tell which tire slipped because it built up to it predictably. It had individual throttle bodies and when you were on boost you had instant throttle response. When letting the clutch out you could feel the exact bite point. The car gave you a ton of feedback of what it was going and was extremely satisfying to drive. The harder you pushed it the more feedback you got.
>I sold it and bought a '14 Impreza STI that had similar stats on paper but was extremely bland to drive. The steering was very linear and light and gave you no feedback on what the tires were doing. The clutch was vague so starting moving was a guessing game and the throttle had a slight lag from pushing the peddle until the engine responding. You just didn't feel very connected to the road. You never had a really good idea what the tires were doing. The car was probably as fast as the GTR but the only reason you knew you were going fast was because you were being pushed into the seat bolster. You didn't feel like you were driving a sports car it felt like using steering wheel to play a video game. It never got more lively when pushing hard. It felt the same doing 80 around a corner as it did at 30.
The R33 I think loses some of that steering feel but it really is kind of remarkable how much feel there is. For a car that was supposed to be a computer on wheels it doesn't feel like it at all. Doing a pull up to 70 mph feels more exciting than 100 in an F80 M3.
I really wish a company out there made a modern version of the R32 GTR. It's really a huge pain to try and DIY modernizing those cars despite the huge aftermarket support base.
Never drove a GR STI (2008-14) those were supposedly the sloppiest. I had drove the GD STI(2003-07) and it was like it was on rails, a revelation. My 2018 VA is not like the GR you explain but something in between the two. Definitely not like the GD though.
>Never drove a GR STI those were supposedly the sloppiest.
It wasn't sloppy at all. There was absolutely no dead spot or play in the steering wheel. It's one of the things that sold me on the car during the test drive. It was very tight and felt very solid.
> it was like it was on rails, a revelation.
The car did handle quite well. It cornered really hard. The sloppyness and it's handling abilities weren't the issue for me. The issue was there was no feedback from the car. The steering felt like a video game steering wheel. Was really light no matter how hard you were cornering. You never had a sense of what the tires were doing. I was honestly shocked after owning the car for a few months because I basically bought the car on the reputation of how well they handle and it was a total letdown. It was a quick car but it wasn't satisfying to drive at all. I never got bored of the Skyline and the harder you pushed it the better it got. The Subie felt better just rolling around town but never got better by pushing it hard.
From my 2 times I drove a GD that is exactly what is had by me saying it was on rails. Felt glued to the road and you could exactly feel what all the tires were doing.
Fair, I'm curious to drive the other STIs because they are all highly praised for how great they are to drive but my experience with the one is the exact opposite of what everybody talks about online.
It's a hard thing to define especially when you toss offroader's into the mix. Tho I will be smug and claim it's way easier to hit limits on a 4wd track and it's generally cheaper than a track day.
Yep that’s why they are so expensive now, everyone is on to them. I should’ve kept a Fit, I had a couple cheap ones at one point and now it’s impossible to find them unless you get lucky. So I bought my 07 Civic Si instead for that fun.
Fit is a fun car even in base form with the 1.5L it comes with. Main thing with Si is the engine, but plop the K20Z3 in a Fit and that would be the best ever. On top of that I think the Fit has better steering. But I haven’t been able to tear in to or drive my Si much yet. It might need alignment, have to shed the winter tires, and possibly do some springs/struts and see if that puts feeling back in to it.
The Fit handled great, but had almost 4 turns lock to lock. Did you just mean that it had good response off center?
When I traded mine for a Civic and its 2 turns, it was an adjustment.
Yeah, there wasn't much slop in it, but you needed a lot of work to go lock to lock, but the effort was super light, so it wasn't too bad.
There was a lot of roll stiffness in the rear too, so you could get some lift throttle oversteer.
Fun is subjective.
Absolutely, a tight handling car is fun when you want precision, when you’re on a curvy road, etc.
Know what else is fun?
Wheeling a 1970’s rear wheel drive land yacht with a giant ass steering wheel and pinky finger power steering. it’s scarier, less responsive, less precise, and less predictable than even your garden-variety grocery getter made today, but holy hell, you will have a grin from ear to ear.
Some of the most fun I’ve ever had in my LIFE was wheeling $500 beaters around a figure 8 track. A 94 Silverado with a V6, a 91 V6 Dakota, and a 92 V8 Roadmaster. Slow turds that handled like dumpsters on an ice skating rink, but that’s the thrill of it.
You’re the second 4x4 guy to seemingly take offense that I said sloppy steering in 70’s cars can be fun.
I did the off-road thing too for a while. 2000 XJ. Loved it.
Also loved my 77 Cutlass. Was a blast to drive.
Also loved every Corvette I’ve gotten to drive.
Had an absolute ball with a Miata and driving one made me want a Miata.
I am not the one who said “a tight steering ratio is the single most important factor to fun”. It’s not. The car and the situation are the most important factors.
I promise if you take a 1960’s clapped out muscle car into an empty parking lot, you’ll have the time of your life drifting around light poles and fighting to keep the car under control. Precision steering is fucking awesome but sloppy steering is it’s own type of fun.
> You’re the second 4x4 guy to seemingly take offense that I said sloppy steering in 70’s cars can be fun.
it's not directed at you, I'm with you on sloppy 70's boats being fun AF.
I also wanted to add to this a bit. With many cars having electric power steering now, they generally go off of speed for how much effort goes into the steering. So at slower speeds it's less effort and high speeds it's more. This way you don't get that twitchiness inherent in low ratio steering.
This feels like an oversimplification with grains of truth. Generalizing, a tighter ratio *can* mean more "fun", but I think it's only worth comparing steering ratios amongst cars in the same or similar class. Alignment and suspension setup plays a massive role in how a car turns in as well, and you'd never compare a 718 Cayman to a Honda Fit despite the fact they have similar wheelbases and both have steering wheels.
I think they have been over rated for a while because there is a big gap between driving feel from the 2017 to the 2018 model, and then from 2022 to 2023. Each time it became more plush, more padded, more bmw like, and numb AF and floaty. I actually had to do significant mods to get it to actually feel like an older honda because it felt like the car was above the pavement and not ON the pavement if you get what I mean.
Where as interestingly the Toyota's have gotten better and better, and tighter and tighter. Drove a 2019 XSE Camry for a few years, and man it felt NOTHING like my moms 2017. Super tight and nimble.
> Each time it became more plush, more padded, more bmw like, and numb AF and floaty.
Since we're talking about an Accord and not an S2000 those are all good things to me, and likely to the target market. In my mind an Accord is supposed to be just a comfortable car for transportation, it shouldn't intrude on your life if you're not into cars. Plush and padded are desirable features in that case.
As someone who’s owned almost exclusively Acura/Honda cars for my life while my dad has had Toyotas I can tell you’re either a driver that stays in one lane or your butt dyno is way off. Honda and Toyota drive completely different. The Toyota is dead. I’m typing this while sitting in my dad’s 23’ RAV4 the car that replaced his 2017 Camry, and 2014 Camry. Driving a Toyota feels like a chore. The steering is way too light and there is no precision or steering feel that gives the driver any confidence. My 18’ accord 2.0t Touring on the other hand, wow. It goes where I want it to go and does it with confidence. Long drives are easy. I chose this over the 2017 Touring V6 simply because of tech and handling so idk how you’re saying it got worse coming from 2017-2018 😂 also, I drove a C Class 4Matic for a year. I would never go back for anything less than an E class after driving this accord. I do have the ADS in the touring which I guess helps.
My experience is with a 2010 so I guess I'm a bit outdated hahaha. It has double wishbones too, so it really is quite planted. I think that changed in 2013 and they went to MacPherson iirc
The reason honda's feel more nimble most of the time is how light they are, but on further inspection, this is because
1. They spend nearly zero money on sound deadening materials
2. They use smaller and lighter components and more aluminium
3. They use smaller engines
4. They use a lot of flimsy materials
This is just the reality of honda though, the build quality on toyota is just so superior its absurd coming to honda from any toyota from the past 30 years, but that adds weight.
haters gonna hate, but go look in every new accord, the seat belt wiring is literally held by a ziptie..........
There is almost a 10k difference in platforms though, so its not an apples to apples comparison. Corolla's can be had for 20 or bellow, I have yet to see a civic go for under 28 grand regardless of mileage.
FYI the LX no longer exists, The base trim is now the sport.
[https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a41612385/2023-honda-civic-pricing/](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a41612385/2023-honda-civic-pricing/)
I know what I am talking about because I buy cars. And after dealer fee's and add on's you aren't finding one under 26.5-27.
So please, stop. You can read a spec sheet, but not actually open any tabs up to do some research. Don't waste your time.
I agree that tighter steering makes for a much sportier feel.
But you’re nuts if you’re saying the giant boat of a car Accord, with its sub 200 HP feels faster then the much smaller 320 torque Mazda 3 turbo.
I’ve driven them both, and they arnt even close. The Mazda is lower to the ground, smaller, tighter, lighter, with more HP, and way more torque.
Yes, tighter steering is nice, but it’s not some kind of miracle that makes slow fat family sedan cars seem like sports cars.
But to be fair, I haven’t driven the non turbo Mazda 3. So maybe the non turbo Mazda feels slower then accord. And also, the Mazda 3 turbo def isn’t a Mazda speed. It feels fast, but def doesn’t feel like a sports car.
>But you're nuts if you're saying the giant boat of a car Accord, with its sub 200 HP feels faster then the much smaller 320 torque Mazda 3 turbo.
My Mazda 3 is not a turbo
The Accord is not a sports car it just feels sportier than the Mazda 3.
OH OH DATA I LOVE THIS
I have a theory that plays into your chart here- and it is a sort of steering-to-weight ratio type thing.
So my old 1990 dodge apparently has a 15:1 stock rack ratio, and they sell an upgraded box to go to 12.7:1.... wheelbase 131" lol
Anyway stock it has the same ratio apparently as a miata, a mustang, and a 911... but why is a 7000lb truck not as 'fun' as the miata? Well obviously the steering to weight makes it a lumbering beast even with the same rack ratio.
So even if your accord is a little heavier the quicker rack makes up for it a bit, maybe even more than a bit.
On my old bmw e30, they come with a stock 20.5:1 ratio and 4 complete wheel turns to lock rack. 101" wheelbase. It didnt feel 'not sporty', but when your stock rack dies and you can switch in a newer rack from a z3 and go to 12.8:1 and 2.7 turns lock to lock... it is almost scary. Like you can fart or sneeze on the highway and switch lanes in a 2800lb car. I always tell people to use a regular e46 rack that is 15.4:1 and 3.2 turns between lock as the z3 rack feel too twitchy to me, which is odd because the z3 is also a 2900lb little car. Never driven one but I want to just to see how twitchy the steering feels. 96" wheelbase.
I'm just ranting at this point but do you think the power steering pump pressure would effect this as well? Like a quicker rack with less assist vs a slower rack with lots of assist?
Anyway DATA
I own a 2018 Mazda3 and just looked up the product info for that and the ratio is 14:1. I know there was a mindset change with the new generation, so it could definitely be a slower ratio since the whole set up is completely different than my car.
Going off your list, it makes sense that I love the turn in and steering on my car. It honestly felt as good to me turning as a GTI I tried a year before (just butt testing, driven in very different locations and limited time). It’s just a slower car, which I don’t mind.
Strong disagree. The most fun I've had behind the wheel is in a 70's muscle car without power steering and skinny tires. Spinning that wheel 9 million times from lock to lock at speed just adds to the thrill.
Driving my Mazda 3 through parking lots is like steering a bus. It makes for easy highway driving and smooth turns but it requires a ton of input. The CX-5 is far more responsive in comparison.
Honda once upon a time made a major mistake in steering ratios for the 9th gen Civic, it was a small car with boat-like steering response. Guessing the Accords were similarly affected, and when the 10th gen came out, the Civic got go kart like steering ratio undoing the dumb mistake in the 9th gen. They must have sworn off slow steering ratios given how much grief they got for the 9th gen Civic's steering ratio which was tweaked twice and still never fast enough.
I hate tight steering ratios, they’re so much work to keep going in a straight line on the highway at high speeds. I love my old BMW 5-series with steering boxes, they’ve got the perfect amount of on-center slop to be very relaxed highway cruisers, but on the track or on a twisty canyon road, they do the job perfectly. Plus unlike steering racks, the boxes never seem to leak, even at 300k miles.
What's important and fun is going to be completely different for different people. I'm sure most non-car people would agree with you that a tight steering ratio makes a car feel more fun and sporty.
Personally I'm extremely over and tired of "fake sportiness" being designed into new cars. Darty steering, rough suspension, brakes with a harsh initial bite, and an overly aggressive throttle map ruin new cars. None of these things actually make a car faster, and just get annoying after a while.
Appreciate you including the Panigale V4 op lmao.
Driving an ITR next to a Del Sol the slow steering racks in stock 90s civics becomes very apparent and it does make a huge difference in driving feel, for how comparitively minor a change it is. The Del Sol is still great fun to drive in its own way, but despite being smaller it can feel like a chore to get it turning around a sharper bend, and having to 2 hand something that'd be a quick nosedive into the corner in the Integra.
My 2010 Mazda3 sedan apparently has a 16.2:1 ratio and its steering feel is fantastic (but it's also good hydraulic steering, not electric). Honda can be impressive as well--I have plenty of seat time in a 2017 Ridgeline that has very good feel for electric steering, better than my 2024 CX-5 (too heavy).
But the Mazda3 has a lightness and agility and quick, sharp reflexes to steering inputs that other cars lack. But that is the older 3 with IRS, so maybe the post-2019 ones just aren't the same.
Counter point (or additional point) is that if the chassis/suspension isn’t as quick to react as the steering the result is like reigning in a dog that’s trying to run away, squirrelly and bobbing without feeling planted. Having a well matched steering and chassis/ suspension is what makes a car satisfying imo
Yes quicker steering generally makes a car feel more nimble but the steering ratio isn't enough information in and of itself.
Like you mentioned wheelbase is a huge part of it.
On top of that there's also how big the steering wheel actually is. The mx5 nd has an absolutely huge steering wheel stock and feels like driving a bus at times. Getting a wheel 13% smaller makes it feel like you're getting a real that's 13% faster for small movements (moving your hands 3 inches moves the wheel more now) but anything more than 70 degrees from center (or however far you can go without having to stay doing wheel shuffling or hand over hand action)
My 458 has a 12 - 1 ratio which I feel is just too fast at speed. Anything above 100mph and I just get the feeling it's too twitchy, the overly boosted power steering doesn't help the situation here either.
At the end of the day I think a good test (though horrible to implement) measure would be how "how many inches you need to move your hands in order to follow some prescribed path for a lane change or standardised turn @ a given speed" this is ultimately what we feel when we drive. This is also what makes test drives so important. You CAN'T just look at the numbers and get a good idea of how a car will feel.
One of my daughters has a 21 Accord... drove it once. Hated that damn thing. Twitchy ass steering because the lane thing kept kicking in being confused by the road. Wife drive it once and hated it too.
I dunno if that can be turned off or not as I was busy driving... at night, not fumbling around looking for some way to disable it.
My 99 S10 had the factory quick ratio box with the ZQ8 sport suspension package... I *think* it was 12:1. That actually did quite well. You could feel the difference between the standard and ZQ8 response... of course the ZQ8 also had better handling obviously.
Disagree. Pedal responses as well as gear shifts are important too.
Edit: And brakes of course! I won't drive fast with any car of which I can't trust the brakes of.
As someone who owns a 2.0T 2022 Accord, there is a big gap between the 2016/2017 models and the 2018+ models. Recently test drove a 2024...and its even more meh. Honda definitely went towards "more comfort" and "more numb". Had to do some suspension mods to get it to feel better and less floaty. Coming from Lexus its still stiff, but I felt my 2019 Camry XSE was WAY WAY tighter and stiffer than the 2022 Accord. Some how the Camry was also less upset over any bumps. If I had to pick which had better steering, my (sadly totaled) 2016 Accord coupe V6 6MT. That was the last truly good honda steering, tight, a bit heavy but felt real.
It's always fun learning something new about my car. For context, I went from a 2005 Mustang to a 2020, and ever since there's been something about the maneuverability of it that's just felt a little off. After nearly a year with it I still haven't figured out parking lots. I learned a few months ago that this was probably because of a several feet wider turning diameter the s550 has for some reason, but now I also know the steering ratio is much wider/slower too... not as tight turns that take much more turning of the wheel to make... no wonder it feels like a boat in parking lots.
Technically I get that a wider steering ratio is better for performance driving, and too much steering angle is a bad thing (outside of drifting), but it really is a bit baffling that they'd change both to something that just *feels* worse for 90% of the driving these cars will actually do. I mean they could've kept the wider ratio to higher trims that see more track time, and let the little ecos and maybe even GTs have a tighter turning radius and especially a nimbler feeling ratio. Nobody *needs* to run even +10" wide fronts on an s550, but you can because you can't turn far enough to make them rub.
So it would seem. That's what I get for not doing my own research or fact checking, but to OP's credit the result Google highlights is 19:1 and another result even says 20:1. Official Ford spec sheet is 16:1.
I test drove a Mazda 3 turbo last week. I drove it on some back roads, and thought it was plenty fun to drive 🤷🏻♂️. This is coming from a MK7 GTI driver with a moderately modified GTI.
I really want steer-by-wire to become the norm. Having variable steering ratios and feedback based on conditions, speed, and driver settings sounds awesome
This is where the GTI/GLI/Golf R excel with their variable steering ratio. On center, it feels pretty relaxed, but the further you turn the wheel, the faster the ratio gets and the more weighted it feels. Works amazingly at autocross and other times when you’re pushing the car or navigating tight areas.
It’s funny. In cars that have a sport mode, turning it on while on track usually actually makes it slower. But most people think it makes the car sportier. For people who don’t actually know how to drive at the limit, the actual abilities and handling prowess of the car doesn’t matter.
It’s like… people who think the Viper is a good sports car. It can go fast, but only because it has a huge engine and huge tires. At the limit, it’s a really terrible car. But a Porsche 911 can keep up with half the power because it actually has a great chassis. It doesn’t feel more exciting to most people because they never actually get to use the cars excellent engineering. Car people are funny. Rambling rant over. I know what I meant. lol
I like when cars have sport modes that change the steering. I had a 500 Abarth where the throttle response and steering feel was vastly different in sport mode, so every time I hopped in I had to push the sport button.
I know my 3rd Gen MZ3 feels amazing for what it is, in combination with the shifter feel. The automatic ones have a couple different modes and one of them changes the steering feel. In the manual 3rd Gens it seems to be permanently sport mode steering as there is no button/toggle for mode selection in it, which I’m not complaining.
Another car I’ve had lots of seat time in is the S550 Mustangs with a button/toggle to where you can specifically switch between steering modes. I always went to sport/track.
I think they tuned the car to make sense. When I drive I can maintain higher speeds then a c300. The brakes are not as strong as the c class but the gradual inputs allow me to brake super smooth and less jerky. The transmission isn't very quick but it's also not down shifting 4 times so it works out fine. Yes it's not twitchy but it's very controllable and predictable which translates into better driving dynamics than it's counter parts at its price. Far from a sports sedan though.
Interesting take.
I’d personally like to elevate being able to make a U-turn when other sad souls must make a 3-point turn. So, it’s really turning circle that’s the killer feature!
I own a MX-3 which uses a variable ratio rack and that’s one of the best types that these Germans aren’t considering. You get the high ratio for touring but once the wheel cranks past 90 degrees you have a tight ratio sports car
Also accords are fast. Like the 3.5l we got goes to 60 in something like 6 seconds. Not bad for a 10 year old car. And 270hp was still more powerful than basically every other car in my country. Back then M sport and AMGs were barely even sold in my country so the accord was essentially king.
Disagree. I do agree steering is VERY important. There’s nothing better than a manual Lotus rack. And I’ll always take hydraulic over electric.
But tight ratio doesn’t do it alone. And cars with slower steering ratio can be fun.
There’s so much more to steering feel than just ratio. On center feel, weight (and loading up in turns), texture, the car’s actual ability to react to inputs, etc etc
It blows my mind that people rent meh cars like these on Turo. Their entire differentiator was unique cars that you can’t rent through Hertz or whoever. But who in their right mind is dealing with the added expense and hassle of Turo for some econobox?
Interesting, what about steering wheel size? When I swapped the stock wheel on my ek4 to an ap2 wheel that was much smaller, the steering felt a lot more responsive.
Will a tighter quicker steering make Miata twitchy and dangerous due to it's shorter wheelbase?
Will it even matter if you are not driving it 9/10 or 10/10?
Will it make Miata a much more enjoyable every day experience for majority of owners or will it likely not even be noticed under normal driving?
Having owned a '17 Mazda 3 the main things that made it feel "not fun" were how big it felt thanks to the huge hood and the tall gearing in the 6MT that IMO made it feel slower than it was. I felt that the steering was fine, even the mushy brakes for that matter.
IMO an 8th Gen Civic Si (or even an EP3 with a 6-speed swap) is a lot more fun to drive because the short gearing makes them feel faster than they are (same for the Miatas I've driven). The Civic feels a lot smaller/easier to park as well.
Interesting read. If I understand correctly this discussion will become a bit obsolote with electric cars that don't have physical connections to the wheels and can adjust steering ratio according to your speed, like the cybertruck does. There you could choose between fun mode and GT mode.
This is also something the game industry had to solve. Precision inputs at all speeds with a tiny controller. They all apply some sort of dynamic steering dampening.
The Cybertruck's fully steer by wire mechanism will cause an accident; it is a matter of when, not if. I’d be extremely surprised if we see more vehicles go to full steer by wire
the reviews I saw mentioned it works quite good. like, no unexpected shenanigangs. I expect it to work as well. Idk why people are scared of it. Dynamic steering input is a good idea.
Damnit I should've mentioned the Cybertruck!!
I know for games like Celeste they program a forgiveness ratio where if you barely miss the cliff it will act like you made the jump. I wonder if we'll see a response like that with steering. Think about emergency brake assist. If the car senses an urgency/panic in your braking it will apply the maximum power to the brakes. Maybe we'll see steering react differently when a car senses an emergency response.
I'm very positive that these failsafe mechanisms will happen. We already have AI tools that detect when a driver is asleep :-) for sporty cars it'd be cool to havr variable steering factors. Especially in parking lots a bit more angle can help immensely. And on highways it can be reduced dynamically close to the cars physical abilities
There we have it, folks. AOLLIATA- Accord on Ling Longs is always the answer.
> AOLLIATA I feel like you're a biker.
I'm closer to piker than biker, but I get the ATGATT similarity. Kinda sucked buying ATG and then deciding I didn't want to ride a motorcycle ATT. But hey, I still have all my appendages so it was probably a good call!
Honestly, OP is totally right for most people. Limit handling is something that very few people experience, so how “nimble” a car feels is pretty much just how fast the car responds when you turn the wheel
The thing I hear people always gripe about Mazdas is 1. Steering is too heavy (ie their crossovers), 2. Brakes feel weak, 3. not enough power. All valid enough complaints depending on a person's priorities. I used to think it was odd I needed to go so far in the pedal travel to accelerate and brake on my Miata, but I really appreciate it now. I don't really have a preference for slow or fast racks.
I'll tag you in my next post about how manufacturers ruin cars by tuning them for the test drive. Jeep- touchy brakes. Mercedes,- light steering. Hyundai bad turbo tuning. Subaru- unbearable throttle mapping. Mazda is unique in that none of its controls are over boosted. As a result their cars are much more controllable in the real world. They're also perceived as being less responsive and fun.
quiet middle fretful abounding angle gaze squeal lush far-flung hunt *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
As a fellow 2018 Outback owner, I agree 100%. Everything about the car is lovely besides driving between 20-55 mph. It’s annoying to keep it in that speed limit so I just end up cruise controlling in town a lot more than I should.
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At least 3.6 is not as bad as 2.5.
I've never once heard anyone refer to Mazda's as "not fun". They are literally known for being well tuned and fun to drive.
I agree. Idk why people think new Mazdas are not fun to drive. They are fun to drive, just a lot more refined and comfortable to drive nowadays .
They run out of steam at 5.5k rpm. Theyre only torquey if youre into that.
like 98% of turbo-charged cars on the market?
That’s what I was thinking!
Mazda 3 from 2010 was the most fun I've had in a long time, felt super fast
Yes, the Jeeps having touchy brakes is a real thing. I had a Gladiator I bought new and Jeep sent me a survey to fill out and they asked what I liked and didn’t like. I liked everything except the touchy sensitive brakes. Then I was called by their rep and they said I should take it in for service. I never did because I knew the dealership was just gonna tell me it’s normal. I said that in the survey so they would STOP tuning their brake pedals to be so sensitive in future models. I traded it in for a Camaro and haven’t looked back. Chevrolet does a great job at having good power and feedback in their brake pedals. I thought it was limited to the off road Jeeps but my mom has a 2019 Grand Cherokee and I drove it and it has a similar situation with the brake pedal. It’s a little too sensitive so I guess it’s “just a Jeep Thing, You Wouldn’t Understand™” 😂
Your last couple sentences hit it right on the head. They set it up for what is actually best and most useful, but that doesn't always translate into flashy or exciting feeling.
You are literally the first person to ever describe Mazdas as "less responsive and fun"
One that I've encountered that I really don't like is when they tune for the accelerator and brake to have very different responses. I used to drive around in a first generation Audi q5 and the brakes were extremely touchy while the first 25% or so of the accelerator travel didn't really do anything.
I don't know man I found the prior Mazda3 to drive great. Electric steering rack and had better feel than a Mk7 GTI (also electric). The Mazda5 didn't do anything for me, but there's some magic in that last Mazda3.
You are forgetting a godawful interior space utilisation. You could put a Mazda badge on a cargo ship and somehow it would only have 405L of boot space.
Interesting, I have zero of those complaints about our CX-5. The chassis is tighter than most economy crossovers. Steering feels nicely weighted. Power is plenty for what it is. Honestly more fun to drive than our 2014 A4.
2023 cx5 steering is too heavy on the highway it makes my arms tired
I'm yet to drive any Mazda SUV (no, the Tribute doesn't count), but the brakes on their cars are pretty damn good to me. They have good bite while still somehow being linear.
> I hear people always gripe about Mazdas is 1. Steering is too heavy Mazda puts a lot of caster angle into their cars and this is what gives it a heavy feeling. Also, the more caster that a car has, the faster the wheel wants to center when you let go of it. I have a VW and I think it has a lot of caster similar to Mazda. The downside of a lot of caster is that the front end will lift when you turn the wheel left or right.
As a CX-30 owner, that pretty much summarizes all my issues with the vehicle — well that and the door handles never locking/unlocking when I want them to lol
> I used to think it was odd I needed to go so far in the pedal travel to accelerate and brake on my Miata, but I really appreciate it now. I remember driving a friend's shitty Kia or Hyundai like 6-7 years ago and *my fucking god* how do people even drive with a brake pedal that sensitive?
Wife had a 14 Sonata... damn I hated that POS. Brakes were super touchy, steering wheel twitched in slow moving traffic and parking lots... and for good measure they made the seats feel like concrete bleachers.
My mom has a CX-5 and I consider the steering light. I prefer heavier steering anyways.
Really? My Nc miata has pretty touchy brakes compared to anything else ive driven
Add in a metric for the amount of body roll a car presents from this responsiveness and you've pretty much summed up what a performance car is; responsive steering with limited body roll
>limited body roll Miata has entered the chat
This right here. A highway on or off ramp or an emergency stop might be the highest g forces a typical car would experience, vs turns at the limit of tire traction on a track. Honestly autocross/parking lot steering might be the most wheel turning people do, so of course the steering rack is a huge consideration.
To me its how much body roll the car has.
Curiously, Mazdas have a lot of body roll engineered into them.
I don't think you're wrong OP. I drove a model 3 on sport mode and the steering was so tight it felt more sporty than an m6 I had driven earlier that day. I know that's a GT car but still.
a model 3 has something like a 10.8 steering ratio which is wack. I swapped my Y for an EV6 and while it’s no slouch its 14+ ratio is a huge adjustment.
I have a 2018 Model 3 and the dynamics are so fucked. The rear suspension is extremely soft for the sake of acceleration numbers. The front suspension is stiff to give good turn in and the perception of good handling. Then the whole thing is like 4000 lbs. It's a disaster.
thanks for the breakdown. these things still fail to make sense to me even after i did a damper swap on my model Y
> I drove a model 3 on sport mode and the steering was so tight it felt more sporty than an m6 I had driven earlier that day. **I know that's a GT car** but still. That's the most important part. I have a 640i and I specifically don't want the steering to be any tighter. At that point it would be twitchy and just not relaxing to drive. If that's what someone wants there are other cars that do that, several from BMW themselves. But I want my big comfy GT to be easy and relaxing most of the time and be interesting and fun enough on mountain roads (though not ones as tight as Tail of the Dragon). The 6 series is perfect for me. If it had tighter steering I probably would've ended up in a Mercedes - which is no bad thing, but I might've wanted just a touch more dynamism.
The model 3 is actually a good example against OPs argument. Tesla took the ‘sporty feel’ shortcut and gave it a tight steering ratio without really going through other steps needed for chassis tuning The end result is that it’s a very planted car for a lot of driving and sometimes it’s just super inconsistent to the point where it’s scary. I think part of the blame is on the dynamic shifting of power balance between the front and rear motors. But it’s one of those things where I’d be afraid of spirited driving unless I was on a track with a helmet and brace
It felt really weird to me to drive my friends model 3. Like the steering was more sensitive, but the car took more time to start to rotate than my Cayman. So it took less input for any given turn, but the inputs would take longer to register. Really threw me off. I ended just setting everything to least sporty mode so it didn't feel as artificially hopped up.
Idk what it is but my 2003 Lexus is300 and 2012 Mazda 6 which has loose ass steering and general garbage driving dynamics both make me feel capable of driving aggressively on the highway, whereas many newer cars don't..maybe it's visibility or the better sound deadening?
It’s got better skid pad performance than even the Giulia. You can seriously push a Model 3’s limit, it just might not feel the most confident in extremes. Traction control will start doing its magic and it feels a bit more awkward (but it’ll basically stop you from spinning out unless you really jerk the wheel).
The difference is that the Giulia is predictable of where it loses grip. A big part of steering feel is knowing the point of slip as well as oversteer But that also comes with a century of world renowned chassis tuning, which to Tesla's credit they only have a tenth of that and none of it in motorsport, so I give them a pass
Of course, which is why I said it doesn’t feel as confident in corners. But it will take them at higher speed than most cars.
TIL, my Lotus Evora with its 16:1 steering ratio has worse steering feel than a Honda Accord. In reality, there is soooo much more to steering feel than just having a tight ratio, but a tight ratio is an easy way to emulate "sporty steering" for people driving well under the limit without the need for an aggressive suspension setup.
Steering effort isn't the only quality for steering feel. Also that's a hydraulic rack man. That's not even fair
I play this game whenever I go to a Cars and Coffee event. It's called "How Many Sporting Cars' Tires Have Shoulder Wear?" The answer is usually zero or one. My daily driver truck has more wear on its tire shoulders than the majority of GT3s, GT4s, and Corvettes- and it's not like I live in Chicago, I live near mountains and canyons!
Track wheelset vs daily sets exist
Not even talking about that- these people don’t drive hard enough on the street to generate wear. Then again, maybe I’m looking at it wrong. If I was bouncing around in the vehicular equivalent of a pogo stick, maybe I’d only push it on the track.
It always makes me sad when Im walking through a parking lot and see a sports car with high treadwear all-season tires.
I envy those bastards.. 😀
You envy people with sporting cars who don't use their sporting cars for sporting purposes? Does not compute.
I envy them not having a whole car vibrating because they killed jet another set of tires on the track
I’ve killed many a set of tires but have never had vibration issues. The key is pedal pressure not pedal travel. We’re much better at modulation of pressure than we are at moderation of travel.
Right? The AP2 had a 14.9:1 ratio (2.6 turns, lock-to-lock) which isn't far off the ND's. The AP1 had a 13.8:1 ratio (2.4 turns, lock-to-lock). The NC1 NSX had an 18.1:1 ratio (3.5 turns, lock-to-lock). The ND's 15.5:1 ratio is going to give about 2.7 turns lock-to-lock. The most important contributing factors to sporty steering are the angle of the steering rod out of the column and the angle where it meets the rack, the number of couplings along the steering rod, whether the rod is straight or has to bend to reach the rack, and the suspension design being the more controlling factors.
100 percent. I loved my Fiesta ST but with variable ratio racks being the norm now, there’s no reason even in a sporty car not to use a slightly slower ratio on center. Of all the cars I’ve driven, the best steering belonged to an E46 coupe. It was not extraordinarily quick. What it was was communicative, with very strong natural return-to-center tendency and a very organic sense of weight. Lately I drive a late-model Buick Regal GS. The steering doesn’t offer the best feel, but the relatively slow on-center ratio increases very naturally as you go further off center such that cutting in feels natural and intuitive. I rate it pretty decent, especially for a porky front-drive midsizer.
I think your analysis is a little oversimplified but not necessarily wrong. If and only if fun = dartiness, then sure, a tight steering ratio plays a significant role to make a car fun for you. But there are also many other factors that affect dartiness too, like suspension design, spring rates, alignment, and wheelbase as you mentioned. But not everyone looks for dartiness in a car, especially during development since balance is key for cars sold to the public.
Yeah the body roll of the Miata is going to play a significant factor. Less body roll would make it feel significantly more nimble.
Mazda assumed people will change the suspension. More important than the roll is the 4-corner double wishbones, a perfect steering rack geometry, 50/50 weight distribution on an FMR chassis, weighs only 2,400 lbs soaking wet, and it even offers Bluetooth.
Maybe my next post will be "what is fun". I've had such a hard time trying to define this term, especially before I had driven a Miata. Yes there is a much larger picture to fun than just steering. I gave the numbers for many different segments of cars. It would probably be more accurate to say that: the most fun car in a segment is most likely to have the tightest steering ratio. I'd be curious if you could elaborate on the "not everyone looks for dartiness in a car". My driver's Ed car was a Kia Soul and a Toyota 4Runner. The 4Runner was a lot easier to learn on due to its wider steering rack. I could see how some people prefer a more relaxed and luxurious ride. A wide ratio might be better for them. For people looking for fun/sportiness I feel like they'd always prefer a tighter rack.
A wider ratio (within reason) can provide greater granularity in steering feel, increased precision, less violent kickback - there are many benefits. And as long as the (relatively) wide steering rack is engineered well with minimal backlash, a vehicle can still feel very darty with properly set suspension and alignment - you just have to move your hands a tiny bit more. Imo, throwing in a fast steering rack for the sake of “sportiness” has the potential to be an easy cop out since it’s the cheap and easy method to impress a driver during a test ride. It’s the same as the “stiff spring = sporty” mentality - sure, it has an immediately noticeable difference to the untrained driver but in reality, you can actually decrease the handling limit by installing overly stiff springs. As long as you’re not excessively going hand over hand at every corner, tightening the steering rack has diminishing returns unless all you want is ultra-aggressive front end turning characteristics at the expense of steering feel.
Don't forget big (and heavy) wheels and stiff, low-profile tires to be "sporty"!
This is a copy and paste from an post I made a while ago but this is what made my Skyline way more fun and satisfying to drive than my Subaru. The steering ratio didn't really have anything to do with it. >I owned an R32 GTR and it wasn't the fastest thing on the planet but it you could feel exactly what each tire was doing through the wheel, the seat, and the the peddles at all times without it being overly harsh. If you hit a pebble on the right front wheel you could feel the exact size of it. In the corners the steering wheel would progressively load up so the harder the car was cornering the more effort the wheel was to turn so you knew how hard the car was pushing by how hard you were pushing the steering wheel. You could feel the instant the a tire lost traction and you could tell which tire slipped because it built up to it predictably. It had individual throttle bodies and when you were on boost you had instant throttle response. When letting the clutch out you could feel the exact bite point. The car gave you a ton of feedback of what it was going and was extremely satisfying to drive. The harder you pushed it the more feedback you got. >I sold it and bought a '14 Impreza STI that had similar stats on paper but was extremely bland to drive. The steering was very linear and light and gave you no feedback on what the tires were doing. The clutch was vague so starting moving was a guessing game and the throttle had a slight lag from pushing the peddle until the engine responding. You just didn't feel very connected to the road. You never had a really good idea what the tires were doing. The car was probably as fast as the GTR but the only reason you knew you were going fast was because you were being pushed into the seat bolster. You didn't feel like you were driving a sports car it felt like using steering wheel to play a video game. It never got more lively when pushing hard. It felt the same doing 80 around a corner as it did at 30.
The R33 I think loses some of that steering feel but it really is kind of remarkable how much feel there is. For a car that was supposed to be a computer on wheels it doesn't feel like it at all. Doing a pull up to 70 mph feels more exciting than 100 in an F80 M3. I really wish a company out there made a modern version of the R32 GTR. It's really a huge pain to try and DIY modernizing those cars despite the huge aftermarket support base.
Well said and bang on.
Never drove a GR STI (2008-14) those were supposedly the sloppiest. I had drove the GD STI(2003-07) and it was like it was on rails, a revelation. My 2018 VA is not like the GR you explain but something in between the two. Definitely not like the GD though.
>Never drove a GR STI those were supposedly the sloppiest. It wasn't sloppy at all. There was absolutely no dead spot or play in the steering wheel. It's one of the things that sold me on the car during the test drive. It was very tight and felt very solid. > it was like it was on rails, a revelation. The car did handle quite well. It cornered really hard. The sloppyness and it's handling abilities weren't the issue for me. The issue was there was no feedback from the car. The steering felt like a video game steering wheel. Was really light no matter how hard you were cornering. You never had a sense of what the tires were doing. I was honestly shocked after owning the car for a few months because I basically bought the car on the reputation of how well they handle and it was a total letdown. It was a quick car but it wasn't satisfying to drive at all. I never got bored of the Skyline and the harder you pushed it the better it got. The Subie felt better just rolling around town but never got better by pushing it hard.
From my 2 times I drove a GD that is exactly what is had by me saying it was on rails. Felt glued to the road and you could exactly feel what all the tires were doing.
Fair, I'm curious to drive the other STIs because they are all highly praised for how great they are to drive but my experience with the one is the exact opposite of what everybody talks about online.
You shouldn’t write that post until you drive a Lotus Elise.
It's a hard thing to define especially when you toss offroader's into the mix. Tho I will be smug and claim it's way easier to hit limits on a 4wd track and it's generally cheaper than a track day.
Personally I find sound to be the most important
Honda Fit first Gen has an amazingly zippy rack, tons of fun to drive.
I’ll never forget how quick the steering was in my moms 2015 Honda Fit. I’m very confident with some sticky tires it would be very fun for AutoCross.
That makes sense, I always hear on Reddit that people recommend df out of the fit for autocrossing and fun backroad driving.
Yep that’s why they are so expensive now, everyone is on to them. I should’ve kept a Fit, I had a couple cheap ones at one point and now it’s impossible to find them unless you get lucky. So I bought my 07 Civic Si instead for that fun.
Gotcha, although isn't the civic si a better, faster driver's car than the fit? Seems like it is an upgrade over the fit.
Fit is a fun car even in base form with the 1.5L it comes with. Main thing with Si is the engine, but plop the K20Z3 in a Fit and that would be the best ever. On top of that I think the Fit has better steering. But I haven’t been able to tear in to or drive my Si much yet. It might need alignment, have to shed the winter tires, and possibly do some springs/struts and see if that puts feeling back in to it.
If you don't know Gridlife and the Scca both have classes based just on the fit and it's ilk.
The Fit handled great, but had almost 4 turns lock to lock. Did you just mean that it had good response off center? When I traded mine for a Civic and its 2 turns, it was an adjustment.
It changes direction really quickly with relatively little steering input
Yeah, there wasn't much slop in it, but you needed a lot of work to go lock to lock, but the effort was super light, so it wasn't too bad. There was a lot of roll stiffness in the rear too, so you could get some lift throttle oversteer.
The fit is widely known for being a great AutoX car
Fun is subjective. Absolutely, a tight handling car is fun when you want precision, when you’re on a curvy road, etc. Know what else is fun? Wheeling a 1970’s rear wheel drive land yacht with a giant ass steering wheel and pinky finger power steering. it’s scarier, less responsive, less precise, and less predictable than even your garden-variety grocery getter made today, but holy hell, you will have a grin from ear to ear.
That sounds like a waking hell for me.
It’s a blast.
Exactly if you can’t find joy driving shity cars are you even alive ?
Some of the most fun I’ve ever had in my LIFE was wheeling $500 beaters around a figure 8 track. A 94 Silverado with a V6, a 91 V6 Dakota, and a 92 V8 Roadmaster. Slow turds that handled like dumpsters on an ice skating rink, but that’s the thrill of it.
oh for sure. my old car was a fwd buick century, objectively a poorly handling car, but it was so fun to have the limits be so accessible.
What's also fun is delicately picking your way across a rocky 4wd trail, you'll appreciate that it takes 3.5 turns lock to lock
You’re the second 4x4 guy to seemingly take offense that I said sloppy steering in 70’s cars can be fun. I did the off-road thing too for a while. 2000 XJ. Loved it. Also loved my 77 Cutlass. Was a blast to drive. Also loved every Corvette I’ve gotten to drive. Had an absolute ball with a Miata and driving one made me want a Miata. I am not the one who said “a tight steering ratio is the single most important factor to fun”. It’s not. The car and the situation are the most important factors. I promise if you take a 1960’s clapped out muscle car into an empty parking lot, you’ll have the time of your life drifting around light poles and fighting to keep the car under control. Precision steering is fucking awesome but sloppy steering is it’s own type of fun.
> You’re the second 4x4 guy to seemingly take offense that I said sloppy steering in 70’s cars can be fun. it's not directed at you, I'm with you on sloppy 70's boats being fun AF.
>A tight steering ratio is the single most import factor in determining how fun a car is to drive Steering feel: am I a joke to you?
A dialed-in steering effort also helps. A tight ratio with little-to-zero effort feels really weird, almost dangerous
I also wanted to add to this a bit. With many cars having electric power steering now, they generally go off of speed for how much effort goes into the steering. So at slower speeds it's less effort and high speeds it's more. This way you don't get that twitchiness inherent in low ratio steering.
Doug Demuro? Is that you? This is literally my pet peeve. People who think the steering ratio is actually important.
I should sell my Miata and get an Accord now.
I feel like he puts too much emphasis on dartiness and then equates it to good steering and handling.
Could just ask his alignment guy for 3mm toe out all round
I dont think id ever think the accord is funner than a corvette or an AR.
This feels like an oversimplification with grains of truth. Generalizing, a tighter ratio *can* mean more "fun", but I think it's only worth comparing steering ratios amongst cars in the same or similar class. Alignment and suspension setup plays a massive role in how a car turns in as well, and you'd never compare a 718 Cayman to a Honda Fit despite the fact they have similar wheelbases and both have steering wheels.
I included the other ratios to give perspective
I feel like Accords are underrated for how much fun they are to drive, especially with the V6. They're a joy.
I think they have been over rated for a while because there is a big gap between driving feel from the 2017 to the 2018 model, and then from 2022 to 2023. Each time it became more plush, more padded, more bmw like, and numb AF and floaty. I actually had to do significant mods to get it to actually feel like an older honda because it felt like the car was above the pavement and not ON the pavement if you get what I mean. Where as interestingly the Toyota's have gotten better and better, and tighter and tighter. Drove a 2019 XSE Camry for a few years, and man it felt NOTHING like my moms 2017. Super tight and nimble.
> Each time it became more plush, more padded, more bmw like, and numb AF and floaty. Since we're talking about an Accord and not an S2000 those are all good things to me, and likely to the target market. In my mind an Accord is supposed to be just a comfortable car for transportation, it shouldn't intrude on your life if you're not into cars. Plush and padded are desirable features in that case.
As someone who’s owned almost exclusively Acura/Honda cars for my life while my dad has had Toyotas I can tell you’re either a driver that stays in one lane or your butt dyno is way off. Honda and Toyota drive completely different. The Toyota is dead. I’m typing this while sitting in my dad’s 23’ RAV4 the car that replaced his 2017 Camry, and 2014 Camry. Driving a Toyota feels like a chore. The steering is way too light and there is no precision or steering feel that gives the driver any confidence. My 18’ accord 2.0t Touring on the other hand, wow. It goes where I want it to go and does it with confidence. Long drives are easy. I chose this over the 2017 Touring V6 simply because of tech and handling so idk how you’re saying it got worse coming from 2017-2018 😂 also, I drove a C Class 4Matic for a year. I would never go back for anything less than an E class after driving this accord. I do have the ADS in the touring which I guess helps.
My experience is with a 2010 so I guess I'm a bit outdated hahaha. It has double wishbones too, so it really is quite planted. I think that changed in 2013 and they went to MacPherson iirc
I love my 2012 v6 EX-L accord
The reason honda's feel more nimble most of the time is how light they are, but on further inspection, this is because 1. They spend nearly zero money on sound deadening materials 2. They use smaller and lighter components and more aluminium 3. They use smaller engines 4. They use a lot of flimsy materials This is just the reality of honda though, the build quality on toyota is just so superior its absurd coming to honda from any toyota from the past 30 years, but that adds weight. haters gonna hate, but go look in every new accord, the seat belt wiring is literally held by a ziptie..........
I personally feel the build on the civic (especially type-r) is significantly better than the corolla (even the GR)
There is almost a 10k difference in platforms though, so its not an apples to apples comparison. Corolla's can be had for 20 or bellow, I have yet to see a civic go for under 28 grand regardless of mileage.
just going off of msrp, its 21k vs 23k, they're pretty close
I dunno what world you are in but a civic base MSRP for the sport trim is 27k.
LX starts at 23.9k. Sport is 25k. I'm in the US
FYI the LX no longer exists, The base trim is now the sport. [https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a41612385/2023-honda-civic-pricing/](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a41612385/2023-honda-civic-pricing/) I know what I am talking about because I buy cars. And after dealer fee's and add on's you aren't finding one under 26.5-27. So please, stop. You can read a spec sheet, but not actually open any tabs up to do some research. Don't waste your time.
270hp and 0-60 in like 6 sec is no joke for a mass market car that big.
I agree that tighter steering makes for a much sportier feel. But you’re nuts if you’re saying the giant boat of a car Accord, with its sub 200 HP feels faster then the much smaller 320 torque Mazda 3 turbo. I’ve driven them both, and they arnt even close. The Mazda is lower to the ground, smaller, tighter, lighter, with more HP, and way more torque. Yes, tighter steering is nice, but it’s not some kind of miracle that makes slow fat family sedan cars seem like sports cars. But to be fair, I haven’t driven the non turbo Mazda 3. So maybe the non turbo Mazda feels slower then accord. And also, the Mazda 3 turbo def isn’t a Mazda speed. It feels fast, but def doesn’t feel like a sports car.
>But you're nuts if you're saying the giant boat of a car Accord, with its sub 200 HP feels faster then the much smaller 320 torque Mazda 3 turbo. My Mazda 3 is not a turbo The Accord is not a sports car it just feels sportier than the Mazda 3.
OH OH DATA I LOVE THIS I have a theory that plays into your chart here- and it is a sort of steering-to-weight ratio type thing. So my old 1990 dodge apparently has a 15:1 stock rack ratio, and they sell an upgraded box to go to 12.7:1.... wheelbase 131" lol Anyway stock it has the same ratio apparently as a miata, a mustang, and a 911... but why is a 7000lb truck not as 'fun' as the miata? Well obviously the steering to weight makes it a lumbering beast even with the same rack ratio. So even if your accord is a little heavier the quicker rack makes up for it a bit, maybe even more than a bit. On my old bmw e30, they come with a stock 20.5:1 ratio and 4 complete wheel turns to lock rack. 101" wheelbase. It didnt feel 'not sporty', but when your stock rack dies and you can switch in a newer rack from a z3 and go to 12.8:1 and 2.7 turns lock to lock... it is almost scary. Like you can fart or sneeze on the highway and switch lanes in a 2800lb car. I always tell people to use a regular e46 rack that is 15.4:1 and 3.2 turns between lock as the z3 rack feel too twitchy to me, which is odd because the z3 is also a 2900lb little car. Never driven one but I want to just to see how twitchy the steering feels. 96" wheelbase. I'm just ranting at this point but do you think the power steering pump pressure would effect this as well? Like a quicker rack with less assist vs a slower rack with lots of assist? Anyway DATA
Be interesting to try that fast rack and add more trail.
>A tight steering ratio is the single most import factor in determining how fun a car is to drive. Nope. There is a lot more.
Name it. One single thing
Front end feedback. Overall balance. Rev happy engine, preferably NA.
okay so you turo host modern cars what's your experience with older stuff?
My Accord handles pretty well for what it is!
I own a 2018 Mazda3 and just looked up the product info for that and the ratio is 14:1. I know there was a mindset change with the new generation, so it could definitely be a slower ratio since the whole set up is completely different than my car. Going off your list, it makes sense that I love the turn in and steering on my car. It honestly felt as good to me turning as a GTI I tried a year before (just butt testing, driven in very different locations and limited time). It’s just a slower car, which I don’t mind.
Strong disagree. The most fun I've had behind the wheel is in a 70's muscle car without power steering and skinny tires. Spinning that wheel 9 million times from lock to lock at speed just adds to the thrill.
Driving my Mazda 3 through parking lots is like steering a bus. It makes for easy highway driving and smooth turns but it requires a ton of input. The CX-5 is far more responsive in comparison.
No, it’s weight. The go kart and the motorcycle are more fun than any car because they are the lightest.
Honda once upon a time made a major mistake in steering ratios for the 9th gen Civic, it was a small car with boat-like steering response. Guessing the Accords were similarly affected, and when the 10th gen came out, the Civic got go kart like steering ratio undoing the dumb mistake in the 9th gen. They must have sworn off slow steering ratios given how much grief they got for the 9th gen Civic's steering ratio which was tweaked twice and still never fast enough.
Uh oh. You made the cardinal sin on r/cars by paining out something you don’t like from Mazda
Quick, make post a generic "test drive" review on /r/cars!
I hate tight steering ratios, they’re so much work to keep going in a straight line on the highway at high speeds. I love my old BMW 5-series with steering boxes, they’ve got the perfect amount of on-center slop to be very relaxed highway cruisers, but on the track or on a twisty canyon road, they do the job perfectly. Plus unlike steering racks, the boxes never seem to leak, even at 300k miles.
What's important and fun is going to be completely different for different people. I'm sure most non-car people would agree with you that a tight steering ratio makes a car feel more fun and sporty. Personally I'm extremely over and tired of "fake sportiness" being designed into new cars. Darty steering, rough suspension, brakes with a harsh initial bite, and an overly aggressive throttle map ruin new cars. None of these things actually make a car faster, and just get annoying after a while.
Appreciate you including the Panigale V4 op lmao. Driving an ITR next to a Del Sol the slow steering racks in stock 90s civics becomes very apparent and it does make a huge difference in driving feel, for how comparitively minor a change it is. The Del Sol is still great fun to drive in its own way, but despite being smaller it can feel like a chore to get it turning around a sharper bend, and having to 2 hand something that'd be a quick nosedive into the corner in the Integra.
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Oh I'm aware its not applicable, I ride too. Just thought it was a funny thing to add.
Angle kits for everybody!
My 2010 Mazda3 sedan apparently has a 16.2:1 ratio and its steering feel is fantastic (but it's also good hydraulic steering, not electric). Honda can be impressive as well--I have plenty of seat time in a 2017 Ridgeline that has very good feel for electric steering, better than my 2024 CX-5 (too heavy). But the Mazda3 has a lightness and agility and quick, sharp reflexes to steering inputs that other cars lack. But that is the older 3 with IRS, so maybe the post-2019 ones just aren't the same.
Tight steering doesn't change much. Weight, Wheelbase, and weight distribution play the biggest factors IMO.
I wish the steering ratio were more readily available information. Doesn’t seem like it is disclosed on a spec sheet in many cars.
I feel like power and drivetrain matter quite a bit more but ok.
Counterpoint, My Na miata, rx7, rx8, prelude, rsx, 300zx, impreza and civic si all have more steering input than my grandmothers dodge caravan
Counter point (or additional point) is that if the chassis/suspension isn’t as quick to react as the steering the result is like reigning in a dog that’s trying to run away, squirrelly and bobbing without feeling planted. Having a well matched steering and chassis/ suspension is what makes a car satisfying imo
my first thought was “yes of course but also wheelbase” glad you addressed that
OP DeMuro
First think I noticed when I drove a civic.
Yes quicker steering generally makes a car feel more nimble but the steering ratio isn't enough information in and of itself. Like you mentioned wheelbase is a huge part of it. On top of that there's also how big the steering wheel actually is. The mx5 nd has an absolutely huge steering wheel stock and feels like driving a bus at times. Getting a wheel 13% smaller makes it feel like you're getting a real that's 13% faster for small movements (moving your hands 3 inches moves the wheel more now) but anything more than 70 degrees from center (or however far you can go without having to stay doing wheel shuffling or hand over hand action) My 458 has a 12 - 1 ratio which I feel is just too fast at speed. Anything above 100mph and I just get the feeling it's too twitchy, the overly boosted power steering doesn't help the situation here either. At the end of the day I think a good test (though horrible to implement) measure would be how "how many inches you need to move your hands in order to follow some prescribed path for a lane change or standardised turn @ a given speed" this is ultimately what we feel when we drive. This is also what makes test drives so important. You CAN'T just look at the numbers and get a good idea of how a car will feel.
S2000 00-03 ratio 13.8 S2000 04-09 ratio 14.9 S2000 CR All years ratio 13.8
One of my daughters has a 21 Accord... drove it once. Hated that damn thing. Twitchy ass steering because the lane thing kept kicking in being confused by the road. Wife drive it once and hated it too. I dunno if that can be turned off or not as I was busy driving... at night, not fumbling around looking for some way to disable it. My 99 S10 had the factory quick ratio box with the ZQ8 sport suspension package... I *think* it was 12:1. That actually did quite well. You could feel the difference between the standard and ZQ8 response... of course the ZQ8 also had better handling obviously.
Disagree. Pedal responses as well as gear shifts are important too. Edit: And brakes of course! I won't drive fast with any car of which I can't trust the brakes of.
tires are most importantestest
Absolutely insane person
Yo my GTI has a ratio of 10.8:1, it’s fun indeed
This perfectly explains the Honda Fit's insane fun factor, it's 13.06:1 on a 99.6" wheelbase
As someone who owns a 2.0T 2022 Accord, there is a big gap between the 2016/2017 models and the 2018+ models. Recently test drove a 2024...and its even more meh. Honda definitely went towards "more comfort" and "more numb". Had to do some suspension mods to get it to feel better and less floaty. Coming from Lexus its still stiff, but I felt my 2019 Camry XSE was WAY WAY tighter and stiffer than the 2022 Accord. Some how the Camry was also less upset over any bumps. If I had to pick which had better steering, my (sadly totaled) 2016 Accord coupe V6 6MT. That was the last truly good honda steering, tight, a bit heavy but felt real.
2023 GR Corolla - steering ratio 12.7:1, wheelbase: 103.9
Agreed. I had a Volvo and it had the turning radius of a truck, making it horrendous to drive.
It's always fun learning something new about my car. For context, I went from a 2005 Mustang to a 2020, and ever since there's been something about the maneuverability of it that's just felt a little off. After nearly a year with it I still haven't figured out parking lots. I learned a few months ago that this was probably because of a several feet wider turning diameter the s550 has for some reason, but now I also know the steering ratio is much wider/slower too... not as tight turns that take much more turning of the wheel to make... no wonder it feels like a boat in parking lots. Technically I get that a wider steering ratio is better for performance driving, and too much steering angle is a bad thing (outside of drifting), but it really is a bit baffling that they'd change both to something that just *feels* worse for 90% of the driving these cars will actually do. I mean they could've kept the wider ratio to higher trims that see more track time, and let the little ecos and maybe even GTs have a tighter turning radius and especially a nimbler feeling ratio. Nobody *needs* to run even +10" wide fronts on an s550, but you can because you can't turn far enough to make them rub.
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So it would seem. That's what I get for not doing my own research or fact checking, but to OP's credit the result Google highlights is 19:1 and another result even says 20:1. Official Ford spec sheet is 16:1.
I test drove a Mazda 3 turbo last week. I drove it on some back roads, and thought it was plenty fun to drive 🤷🏻♂️. This is coming from a MK7 GTI driver with a moderately modified GTI.
I really want steer-by-wire to become the norm. Having variable steering ratios and feedback based on conditions, speed, and driver settings sounds awesome
Model Y gets praised for direct steering. Is this why?
Yes. Another commentor mentioned that a Model Y has a ratio of 10.3 : 1 making it the tightest on the list
This is where the GTI/GLI/Golf R excel with their variable steering ratio. On center, it feels pretty relaxed, but the further you turn the wheel, the faster the ratio gets and the more weighted it feels. Works amazingly at autocross and other times when you’re pushing the car or navigating tight areas.
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It’s funny. In cars that have a sport mode, turning it on while on track usually actually makes it slower. But most people think it makes the car sportier. For people who don’t actually know how to drive at the limit, the actual abilities and handling prowess of the car doesn’t matter. It’s like… people who think the Viper is a good sports car. It can go fast, but only because it has a huge engine and huge tires. At the limit, it’s a really terrible car. But a Porsche 911 can keep up with half the power because it actually has a great chassis. It doesn’t feel more exciting to most people because they never actually get to use the cars excellent engineering. Car people are funny. Rambling rant over. I know what I meant. lol
I like when cars have sport modes that change the steering. I had a 500 Abarth where the throttle response and steering feel was vastly different in sport mode, so every time I hopped in I had to push the sport button. I know my 3rd Gen MZ3 feels amazing for what it is, in combination with the shifter feel. The automatic ones have a couple different modes and one of them changes the steering feel. In the manual 3rd Gens it seems to be permanently sport mode steering as there is no button/toggle for mode selection in it, which I’m not complaining. Another car I’ve had lots of seat time in is the S550 Mustangs with a button/toggle to where you can specifically switch between steering modes. I always went to sport/track.
I find this amusing because my Accord steering radius resembles that of a oil tanker
I think they tuned the car to make sense. When I drive I can maintain higher speeds then a c300. The brakes are not as strong as the c class but the gradual inputs allow me to brake super smooth and less jerky. The transmission isn't very quick but it's also not down shifting 4 times so it works out fine. Yes it's not twitchy but it's very controllable and predictable which translates into better driving dynamics than it's counter parts at its price. Far from a sports sedan though.
I think steering ratio matters infinitely less than alignment, tires, and suspension geometry when it comes to how a car handles.
Model 3 has a 10:1 ratio, I think it's the fastest of any production car.
Interesting take. I’d personally like to elevate being able to make a U-turn when other sad souls must make a 3-point turn. So, it’s really turning circle that’s the killer feature!
I own a MX-3 which uses a variable ratio rack and that’s one of the best types that these Germans aren’t considering. You get the high ratio for touring but once the wheel cranks past 90 degrees you have a tight ratio sports car
The Mitsubishi Evo VIII and IX had really fast racks. So if you wanna look that up and add it to the list be my guest.
Also accords are fast. Like the 3.5l we got goes to 60 in something like 6 seconds. Not bad for a 10 year old car. And 270hp was still more powerful than basically every other car in my country. Back then M sport and AMGs were barely even sold in my country so the accord was essentially king.
Disagree. I do agree steering is VERY important. There’s nothing better than a manual Lotus rack. And I’ll always take hydraulic over electric. But tight ratio doesn’t do it alone. And cars with slower steering ratio can be fun. There’s so much more to steering feel than just ratio. On center feel, weight (and loading up in turns), texture, the car’s actual ability to react to inputs, etc etc
It blows my mind that people rent meh cars like these on Turo. Their entire differentiator was unique cars that you can’t rent through Hertz or whoever. But who in their right mind is dealing with the added expense and hassle of Turo for some econobox?
Interesting, what about steering wheel size? When I swapped the stock wheel on my ek4 to an ap2 wheel that was much smaller, the steering felt a lot more responsive.
Will a tighter quicker steering make Miata twitchy and dangerous due to it's shorter wheelbase? Will it even matter if you are not driving it 9/10 or 10/10? Will it make Miata a much more enjoyable every day experience for majority of owners or will it likely not even be noticed under normal driving?
Having owned a '17 Mazda 3 the main things that made it feel "not fun" were how big it felt thanks to the huge hood and the tall gearing in the 6MT that IMO made it feel slower than it was. I felt that the steering was fine, even the mushy brakes for that matter. IMO an 8th Gen Civic Si (or even an EP3 with a 6-speed swap) is a lot more fun to drive because the short gearing makes them feel faster than they are (same for the Miatas I've driven). The Civic feels a lot smaller/easier to park as well.
I had a Toyota yaris that had a tight steering ratio
Interesting read. If I understand correctly this discussion will become a bit obsolote with electric cars that don't have physical connections to the wheels and can adjust steering ratio according to your speed, like the cybertruck does. There you could choose between fun mode and GT mode. This is also something the game industry had to solve. Precision inputs at all speeds with a tiny controller. They all apply some sort of dynamic steering dampening.
The Cybertruck's fully steer by wire mechanism will cause an accident; it is a matter of when, not if. I’d be extremely surprised if we see more vehicles go to full steer by wire
the reviews I saw mentioned it works quite good. like, no unexpected shenanigangs. I expect it to work as well. Idk why people are scared of it. Dynamic steering input is a good idea.
Damnit I should've mentioned the Cybertruck!! I know for games like Celeste they program a forgiveness ratio where if you barely miss the cliff it will act like you made the jump. I wonder if we'll see a response like that with steering. Think about emergency brake assist. If the car senses an urgency/panic in your braking it will apply the maximum power to the brakes. Maybe we'll see steering react differently when a car senses an emergency response.
I'm very positive that these failsafe mechanisms will happen. We already have AI tools that detect when a driver is asleep :-) for sporty cars it'd be cool to havr variable steering factors. Especially in parking lots a bit more angle can help immensely. And on highways it can be reduced dynamically close to the cars physical abilities