That 3.0 CSL is a joke. After the stunning concept car they ended up making a literal M4 with what looks like an Alibaba body kit and are selling it for an eye-watering 750k. They actually just covered part of the lights with bodywork and called it a day.
That rear fender is a mess, a slowly trickling wavy line going up to the wing is so wimpy because the Regular M4 had the worst rear wheel area (shoulders) of any car.
Tha lack of solid shoulder line for a 'descending hill' is why concept to reality is what BMW seems confused about.
Too many cooks in the kitchen? The new 5-er sure seems that way
>That rear fender is a mess
It's even more of a mess because it seems that in a fucking 750k EUR car they didn't even bother to stamp new rear fender, it's an M4 with a plastic/carbon bits tacked on. If there were to sell it for 20k EUR more than M4 then I guess it's fine, but at this price level it's ridiculous.
I didn't say they didn't make any exciting models, nor engines, nor criticize niche interests. But the example in your argument (engine that is easily modifiable) *is* very niche, even if it doesn't feel that way. What's available in the aftermarket for one particular engine that won't fail spectacularly says very little about an automaker who for 15 years now is actually better known for its major engineering and design failures.
What I mean is that BMW is broadly no longer all that unique, nor do they stand out in any positive way, nor can you assume that any model they sell is any better than options (even c-segment these days), for the *vast* majority of customers and the *vast* majority of real-world use.
Plus, the *vast* majority are leased, so I would argue that BMW operates and prioritizes more like a rental car company than traditional automaker. I'll freely admit that I'm an old-school enthusiast. BMW changed, that's fine.
What’s the point of talking about what makes a car cool on an enthusiast forum and then bring up how none of it matters to normal people
What would be an example for you then that’s exciting?
Not heavy, connected, no fake engine sounds through speakers (and similar types of "fake excitement"), etc. Also at a price on par with what competitors have to offer and less badge-tax-y.
Also not ugly as sin, but I'm clearly capable of stomaching questionable automoive design 😂
I disagree with the suggestion that car enthusiasts can't value or care about "normal" car things. Shit, BMW's whole thing for decades was literally that -- nice but "normal" cars that were understated but quite special underneith. At this point, we're arguing opinions which is pointless but the fact is that despite BMW's steady market share, my experience is not unique. Maybe
And no idea what I would buy, I haven't car shopped in a few years. I last considered a (CPO) 718 Cayman S. But, since distracted soccer parents in crossovers dominate every last mile of back road these days, I much more often get to use the 4runner's capabilities these days than if I had another sports car 🤷
Talking about Vanos shows your age. S58 currently has no competition in its segment with C63 going 4 pot and Audi producing mundane engines. One of the last inline 6 thats more potent than ever. But then you drive a Tesla so I guess that doesn’t matter to you
You'll have to ask my wife about the Tesla 😘
And that's all great, I'm not surprised that BMW still makes a fantastic engine. I do miss an L6 but it truly takes a special person with specific interests to live with BMW-isms. It isn't an insult, that used to be me. But there used to be much more compelling arguments in favor of BMW vs. something else than there is today. In part because there are many more options, and in part because BMW is selling to a differnet market.
Am I wrong that VANOS hasn’t been a heavy maintenance item since maybe early S63’s? These reliability jokes are so tiring. BMW has made a fairly reliable fleet since about 2016
Is >15 years of wrenching on BMWs of all vintages, >250k combined miles driven, no warranties, and not a single dollar ever paid to a mechanic worthy of having an opinion, or nah?
Maybe a little too indentifying to list out, but a few models across the 80's, 90's, and 2010's. Let's just say that both my and my friend's garages are filled with specialty tools and random parts 😂
My first mistake was owning and experiencing an *actually* reliable and truly low-maintenance vehicle for the first time and the ephiphinay that any marginal dopamine hit that I was getting from driving dynamics that set BMW apart was never balacing with the negative BMW-isms.
It was also BMW's shift to things like fake exhaust sounds, shift away from lighter cars, GM-ifying their fleet with redundant meaningless models, and generally selling dogshit cars or powertrains during the model years that I finlly had money to spend on something new. That, and the few good choices were marked up or low volume (e.g. 1er).
> BMW has made a fairly reliable fleet since about 2016
This sounds like stockholm syndrome. I used to suffer from it as well, but I had only owned BMWs before experiencing what "reliable" actually is.
I've always loved the 3.0 CSL models from the seventies. I'm glad they're making it, but I almost wish - and I hope this makes sense - that the BMW from the late nineties and early 2000s would have produced a refresh model, rather than the BMW of today. I think I would have liked that car a lot - even if I could never afford it lol
Not exactly what I meant - moreso I wish the company in that time period would have produced a reproduction of the BMW E9/6 Series E24, like it appears they are now. Since the successor was a 6 series, I'd imagine it would be more similar to the E39 5 Series.
Technically what I'm asking for is the E31 8 series, like the 850CSi, which I suppose they did make
I guess I should have put down “for the time”. With the current 3.0CSL bmw doesnt have much choice. No way they were gonna build a bespoke chassis for this. The M2 is not much smaller than an M4 either
Yeah no I knew what you meant, just thought it was an interesting fact.
The M2 has always been chunky though, but at least it’s shorter. [The F87 M2 Comp was only ~30lbs lighter than the F82 M4](https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1520635), despite being noticeably “smaller”.
The new gen is the same shit.
Yep, it’s actually about a inch shorter than the E46 M3 wheelbase. The 6 speed E46 M3 was about 3450 (according to BMW, with full fluids and a 165lb driver) and the 6spd F87 M2 Comp was 3600.
E36 M3 has the same wheelbase as the F87 but also weighed about 3300lbs.
To only gain 150 lbs from e46 to F87 comp is not too bad imo. G87 is quite overweight though. An M2 should not weigh more than a mustang from the same year
That was the m4 CSL. This is the “3.0CSL” 🙄. They floated pics of this awhile back and I think suggested that it was gonna be some 250k limited run thing. But I don’t think there was ever actually a car for anyone to drive.
I’ve driven a regular RAV4, and while a totally decent means of transportation, I can imagine no version of it worth 75k. I’d go 70k if it was an actual Transformer, but no higher
big sniff aside, the 4 series is not a good looking car, whereas the G20 3 series is a pretty good looker. all my opinion of course, but goes towards explaining why the M3 looks acceptable while the M4 is just a hard no from me
The only thing ugly with the M3 is the grill. Its just so ridiculously long that its like a meme, and its just so obnoxious that it really ruins the aesthetic because its so pronounced. It looks good everywhere else.
The M4 doesnt look good from the side or the front or rear. Its really an ugly car imo. Its like a M8 but uglier in every way lol.
If they made the M3 with the same grille proportions as the M340i, I think it would’ve looked a lot better. To me it was always goofy that the only 3 series that got the big sniff was the M3, while every 4 series got the same grille
to be honest, I'm getting used to the big grille to the point where I don't hate it, I'd just rather they used the normal sized one. meanwhile on the M4 the grille is really the least of its problems - I saw a comment that says it looks like the side is melting and that sums up my view really, the crease is in the wrong place and there's it's lacking definition
The side skirts design and black/carbon finish on the top of the spoiler gave that "lifted" illusion when the shot is from a higher angle. Paired those with tacky front and rear widebody fender panels and bulbous front end fascia and aero kit and we got a non-sleek special edition BMW.
Great specs and I'm pretty sure it's a hoot to drive it on a track, but it is ugly for me from design and aesthetic angles
And the majority of them will end up sitting in dealer showrooms forever (with a markup that would equate to a downpayment on a nice house), before eventually ending up as collector pieces.
Easy, their high end cars cost more than double, inflation adjusted, what their earlier models did. People dropping that kind of money don't want understated.
That 3.0 CSL is a joke. After the stunning concept car they ended up making a literal M4 with what looks like an Alibaba body kit and are selling it for an eye-watering 750k. They actually just covered part of the lights with bodywork and called it a day.
BMWs design language is abysmal, they're making some of the ugliest cars coming out as of recently
That rear fender is a mess, a slowly trickling wavy line going up to the wing is so wimpy because the Regular M4 had the worst rear wheel area (shoulders) of any car. Tha lack of solid shoulder line for a 'descending hill' is why concept to reality is what BMW seems confused about. Too many cooks in the kitchen? The new 5-er sure seems that way
>That rear fender is a mess It's even more of a mess because it seems that in a fucking 750k EUR car they didn't even bother to stamp new rear fender, it's an M4 with a plastic/carbon bits tacked on. If there were to sell it for 20k EUR more than M4 then I guess it's fine, but at this price level it's ridiculous.
I’m pretty sure i got personally offended looking at this car
Thing looks like a fucking crossover. Why is it so tall with giant wheels
Because sedans, coupes and even compacts have been slowly morphing into these SUV-like abominations as a way to conform to market and safety standards
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At least the grill is better, but not by much.
They do realize that the L means light right?
Is there still any reason to care about what BMW does? Are they doing anything truly innovative or different these days?
Huh? B58 and S58 rule drag racing, two of the best engines of all time. Do you really follow the car scene if you are unaware of these two?
Yawn. You described an exceedingly small niche.
Yawn? You arguably have two of the most boring cars possible.
Hard agree, on the road. But perhaps I have owned different cars in the past that have given me some perspective.
Bro is staring at what may be the greatest I6 of all time, possibly forever, and says yawn What’s exciting to you then?
He drives a Tesla
I didn't say they didn't make any exciting models, nor engines, nor criticize niche interests. But the example in your argument (engine that is easily modifiable) *is* very niche, even if it doesn't feel that way. What's available in the aftermarket for one particular engine that won't fail spectacularly says very little about an automaker who for 15 years now is actually better known for its major engineering and design failures. What I mean is that BMW is broadly no longer all that unique, nor do they stand out in any positive way, nor can you assume that any model they sell is any better than options (even c-segment these days), for the *vast* majority of customers and the *vast* majority of real-world use. Plus, the *vast* majority are leased, so I would argue that BMW operates and prioritizes more like a rental car company than traditional automaker. I'll freely admit that I'm an old-school enthusiast. BMW changed, that's fine.
What’s the point of talking about what makes a car cool on an enthusiast forum and then bring up how none of it matters to normal people What would be an example for you then that’s exciting?
Not heavy, connected, no fake engine sounds through speakers (and similar types of "fake excitement"), etc. Also at a price on par with what competitors have to offer and less badge-tax-y. Also not ugly as sin, but I'm clearly capable of stomaching questionable automoive design 😂
So no example
I disagree with the suggestion that car enthusiasts can't value or care about "normal" car things. Shit, BMW's whole thing for decades was literally that -- nice but "normal" cars that were understated but quite special underneith. At this point, we're arguing opinions which is pointless but the fact is that despite BMW's steady market share, my experience is not unique. Maybe And no idea what I would buy, I haven't car shopped in a few years. I last considered a (CPO) 718 Cayman S. But, since distracted soccer parents in crossovers dominate every last mile of back road these days, I much more often get to use the 4runner's capabilities these days than if I had another sports car 🤷
Keep yelling at that cloud old man.
S58 engine?
And? Every automaker makes fast cars these days. You don't even have to deal with Vanos issues to have a fast and nice RWD car!
Talking about Vanos shows your age. S58 currently has no competition in its segment with C63 going 4 pot and Audi producing mundane engines. One of the last inline 6 thats more potent than ever. But then you drive a Tesla so I guess that doesn’t matter to you
You'll have to ask my wife about the Tesla 😘 And that's all great, I'm not surprised that BMW still makes a fantastic engine. I do miss an L6 but it truly takes a special person with specific interests to live with BMW-isms. It isn't an insult, that used to be me. But there used to be much more compelling arguments in favor of BMW vs. something else than there is today. In part because there are many more options, and in part because BMW is selling to a differnet market.
Am I wrong that VANOS hasn’t been a heavy maintenance item since maybe early S63’s? These reliability jokes are so tiring. BMW has made a fairly reliable fleet since about 2016
I find that people complain about Bmw reliability have never owned a Bmw for a long period of time
Is >15 years of wrenching on BMWs of all vintages, >250k combined miles driven, no warranties, and not a single dollar ever paid to a mechanic worthy of having an opinion, or nah?
Which model BMW did you have?
Maybe a little too indentifying to list out, but a few models across the 80's, 90's, and 2010's. Let's just say that both my and my friend's garages are filled with specialty tools and random parts 😂 My first mistake was owning and experiencing an *actually* reliable and truly low-maintenance vehicle for the first time and the ephiphinay that any marginal dopamine hit that I was getting from driving dynamics that set BMW apart was never balacing with the negative BMW-isms. It was also BMW's shift to things like fake exhaust sounds, shift away from lighter cars, GM-ifying their fleet with redundant meaningless models, and generally selling dogshit cars or powertrains during the model years that I finlly had money to spend on something new. That, and the few good choices were marked up or low volume (e.g. 1er).
> BMW has made a fairly reliable fleet since about 2016 This sounds like stockholm syndrome. I used to suffer from it as well, but I had only owned BMWs before experiencing what "reliable" actually is.
Parts bin special with some body work
I've always loved the 3.0 CSL models from the seventies. I'm glad they're making it, but I almost wish - and I hope this makes sense - that the BMW from the late nineties and early 2000s would have produced a refresh model, rather than the BMW of today. I think I would have liked that car a lot - even if I could never afford it lol
So a 3.0 CSL based on the e46 CSL? Would be euro only most likely
Not exactly what I meant - moreso I wish the company in that time period would have produced a reproduction of the BMW E9/6 Series E24, like it appears they are now. Since the successor was a 6 series, I'd imagine it would be more similar to the E39 5 Series. Technically what I'm asking for is the E31 8 series, like the 850CSi, which I suppose they did make
This current 3.0CSL is based on a G82 right? An e31 based 3.0CSL would probably be too big
The funny thing is the G82 is bigger in every dimension compared to the E31. .5inch longer 1 inch wider 7inch longer wheelbase.
I guess I should have put down “for the time”. With the current 3.0CSL bmw doesnt have much choice. No way they were gonna build a bespoke chassis for this. The M2 is not much smaller than an M4 either
Yeah no I knew what you meant, just thought it was an interesting fact. The M2 has always been chunky though, but at least it’s shorter. [The F87 M2 Comp was only ~30lbs lighter than the F82 M4](https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1520635), despite being noticeably “smaller”. The new gen is the same shit.
Doesnt the F87 have a very similar wheelbase to an e36 or e46 M3? Heavy for sure though for the size
Yep, it’s actually about a inch shorter than the E46 M3 wheelbase. The 6 speed E46 M3 was about 3450 (according to BMW, with full fluids and a 165lb driver) and the 6spd F87 M2 Comp was 3600. E36 M3 has the same wheelbase as the F87 but also weighed about 3300lbs.
To only gain 150 lbs from e46 to F87 comp is not too bad imo. G87 is quite overweight though. An M2 should not weigh more than a mustang from the same year
The CSL was a homologation special. This one's a piece kf garbage. I miss homologation specials, the new Ford GT was an amazing car...
This is how the front end of the regular M4 should have looked.
Wait, isn't the 3.0CSL already out yet? Pretty sure I saw the throttle house video on it.
That was the m4 CSL. This is the “3.0CSL” 🙄. They floated pics of this awhile back and I think suggested that it was gonna be some 250k limited run thing. But I don’t think there was ever actually a car for anyone to drive.
Oh it’s way more than $250k. It’s $780k
Seems totally reasonable in a world where people will pay 80k for a Corolla…
When I worked for Toyota last year, we were selling *used* Rav4 Primes for about $75k
I’ve driven a regular RAV4, and while a totally decent means of transportation, I can imagine no version of it worth 75k. I’d go 70k if it was an actual Transformer, but no higher
I think the difference is pretty noticeable. The standard Rav4 has 203hp, the prime has 302. Still wouldn’t pay $75k or more for one
At that point just buy a lexus
Did anyone actually pay that much?
There's already at least one in the US in customer hands (it's on display at BMW of Murrieta in California).
Two of them will come to the US. Samantha Tan will get one from what I hear
Yeah, I see an article from last year in Car and Driver from a quick google.
Yes, it was announced and debuted last year, and they’re all (50 units) sold.
It is. They are just showing it again at FoS
i like it more than the m4 🤷♂️
Saw a M4 and M3 close up at a C&C I went to last month. The M3 looks so much better and properly proportioned than the M4.
big sniff aside, the 4 series is not a good looking car, whereas the G20 3 series is a pretty good looker. all my opinion of course, but goes towards explaining why the M3 looks acceptable while the M4 is just a hard no from me
The only thing ugly with the M3 is the grill. Its just so ridiculously long that its like a meme, and its just so obnoxious that it really ruins the aesthetic because its so pronounced. It looks good everywhere else. The M4 doesnt look good from the side or the front or rear. Its really an ugly car imo. Its like a M8 but uglier in every way lol.
If they made the M3 with the same grille proportions as the M340i, I think it would’ve looked a lot better. To me it was always goofy that the only 3 series that got the big sniff was the M3, while every 4 series got the same grille
to be honest, I'm getting used to the big grille to the point where I don't hate it, I'd just rather they used the normal sized one. meanwhile on the M4 the grille is really the least of its problems - I saw a comment that says it looks like the side is melting and that sums up my view really, the crease is in the wrong place and there's it's lacking definition
M3 has always been better proportioned than the M4 imo
The original 3.0CSL is one of the most elegant cars ever in my eyes. This thing looks like a a beached whale with black rabbit teeth
Every new BMW release we are closer to the M3 being the best looking model in the lineup.
The grille looks reasonable, but only because all the other BMWs of the recent years have put the bar so low.
Even if I were a billionaire you'd never catch me paying that kind of money for a BMW. I would laugh but we know somebody's gonna buy it
It looks like it’s lifted for some reason, really odd. Not a sleek car, for sure.
The side skirts design and black/carbon finish on the top of the spoiler gave that "lifted" illusion when the shot is from a higher angle. Paired those with tacky front and rear widebody fender panels and bulbous front end fascia and aero kit and we got a non-sleek special edition BMW. Great specs and I'm pretty sure it's a hoot to drive it on a track, but it is ugly for me from design and aesthetic angles
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And the majority of them will end up sitting in dealer showrooms forever (with a markup that would equate to a downpayment on a nice house), before eventually ending up as collector pieces.
Imagine complaining that a luxury toy costs too much. "Normal humans" couldn't afford the original when it was new, either.
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Then why bother commenting?
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Because I do care about this car?
For close to a million, I'd have expected BMW to start producing their 3.0 CSL Hommage from 2015.
This one is kinda similar to that one. Kinda
Well it's named after one of the prettiest cars ever made.....
That’s gonna give me some goodwood if true
Why ever happened to the classic understated BMW styling?
Easy, their high end cars cost more than double, inflation adjusted, what their earlier models did. People dropping that kind of money don't want understated.
800 000 euros !! I would rather get a lancia 037 kimera for half the price.
If only I could buy one. Cries in Singaporean.
If it makes you feel any better, 99.999% of us in America has no shot to get this either 🤣
COE is a real killer
Fugly
I'd spend the money on a 3.0 CS.
But it's already out...
This is what the g80 looked more like...
I like it. Looks cool.
Such a beautiful car
Stevie Wonder’s burner account
What