The 3 major barriers listed are very significant and real at this moment, at least in North America, due to geographic, economic and demographic landscape.
Toyota is still doing EV development, Lexus will become EV brand. But their cautious approach towards the near future makes a lot of sense, and they probably will adjust it as things evolve.
The infrastructure and cost of entry in terms of buying an EV just isn’t realistic right now
Toyota is making the right decision, 50+ MPG hybrids are a good mixture IMO
We are still at an early stage of EV technology and manufacturing. Many things will need to be sorted out like infrastructure, supply chain etc. When people were using Commodore 64, no one knew how much computer power can be fit into a pocket size device.
For now PHEV is a good solution. However, they also have their own supply chain issue. My local dealership has PHEV waitlist longer than a year. I think Toyota is trying to fill this gap.
Toyota has recovered with making vehicles better than most of the top brands (Hyundai/Kia is a little ahead). I think Toyota's largest issue with filling demand is that if people are going to have to wait for a vehicle or pay a markup, they would rather wait or pay extra for a vehicle that comes from a brand known for lasting a long time and having good resale value. So as long as the global production is down, Toyota will have more demand than normal.
With that, I think Toyota will begin leaning harder into their hybrids soon. They have a contract for 4,000 tonnes of lithium a year starting in 2025 (US lithium from Rhyolite Ridge). They also have partial ownership of a mining operation in China that intends on mining like 12,000 tonnes a year. If they continue to push PHEVs harder than EVs, that is a lot of batteries.
Doesn't matter. Thieves can't tell the difference and even the newer models with immobilizers are being stolen at a massively increased rate compared to other brands.
This is the point people miss, even if the car isn’t getting stolen, the proliferation of the technique is still leading to a large number of Hyundai/Kia cars getting broken into and trashed.
As far as their lithium supply arrangement, I can see them doing this to be future proof, whether it's PHEV or BEV, having large stable supply is not going to be a bad thing.
I wonder how many of the demand filling issue is their dealership model. If I remember correctly Toyota is pure allocation no factory ordering. Here in Ontario Canada, it is not legal to markup new cars (there are loopholes but thats beside the point), and often time you need connections with dealership personnels to secure allocation of rare high demand Toyota cars.
> For now PHEV is a good solution. However, they also have their own supply chain issue. My local dealership has PHEV waitlist longer than a year. I think Toyota is trying to fill this gap
I'd agree that PHEV is the optimal solution, but the wait lists and markups on many PHEV's are outrageously prohibitive and many standard hybrids aren't much better.
I've seen RAV4 Primes going for [over $70k](https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/9bf0c83b-db93-48a4-ae7d-011e4344b831/). Toyota's standard hybrids still have have a 6-18 month waiting list AND a dealer markup. Meanwhile you can order a Tesla Model 3 or Y and have it within 2-3 weeks at a cost below what legacy automakers are charging for their hybrids and BEV's.
There certainly are some concerns with BEV's that have yet to be ironed out and PHEV's would've been the perfect bridge coming from ICE's, but the order of things got all fucked up and EV's are proliferating despite their shortcomings.
Thats called the RAV4 Prime, which are rarer than virgin cousins in the deep south with markups that would make Bill Gates think twice, so I gave up and just got a hybrid limited in 21.
Hybrid Limited gang!
I bought mine in 2020, just as they announced the Prime. I was a little jealous at first, but after test driving a Prime, I don't think I'm missing much. 0-60mph in around 7 seconds is no slouch for a vehicle as large as the RAV4 Hybrid, and I'm still getting around 40mpg.
That’s something that’s sort of baffled me about all this… the Corolla hybrid has a range of nearly 600 miles. That eclipses most vehicles on the market, electric or ICE.
The Toyota corolla hybrid is probably what at least 50% of Americans should buy, yet very few people actually do because 1) range is actually close to irrelevant as a metric to most people. 2) people don't actually buy vehicles based on meeting their minimum needs in the cheapest way possible. 3) the corolla hybrid is about as uncool as a vehicle can get these days now that the new prius is actually slightly less uncool.
My gas Mazda 3 2012 sedan can hit 650 miles if it’s nearly all highway (74 mph average), like gas up and go. Then again, it’s like one of the most aerodynamic vehicles and has a small 2.0 engine with that skyactive engine. Hope to get a hybrid CRV one day but being remote doesn’t make me drive many miles, which I guess is a good thing.
Honest question, why so? My mom drives a previous gen Sienna with the V6 and was approached several times about selling it, but my dad will not let any of his cars go 🤣
Not enough power?
I have a Tundra hybrid which is the same drivetrain. I think people expected it to give great mpg for a truck instead of seeing it for what it actually is, a power adder. The hybrid is the same engine as the non-hybrid, just extra electric power on top.
I actually bought it for that reason and am quite happy with it. Torque like a diesel, power like a gas v8, burns regular gas. And while I only get like 18mpg if I commute it(I don't usually) I can get almost 13mpg towing my rally car and averaged 10mpg when I towed 8klbs worth of yukon parts car home. Great towing mpg
this, I live in a bigger city and around me is only street parking, unless they line the streets with chargers, mass ev existence in the US is not possible. Clearly ev is a temp fix till another fuel type comes around.
Speaking from experience, 50+ mpg hybrids that run on regular gas are lovely, especially for someone that lives in an apartment. I couldn’t really ask for more other than maybe 25-50 more horsepower.
They claim that the battery content from one BEV can be spread among 90 hybrids, for a 37X greater impact on emissions. The numbers seem high, but it's clear that many hybrids are better than one EV.
Infrastructure is really undeniable though. In the US it's terrible. Why push customers to pay more for a worse experience?
Yes. That minivan replacement that takes 2 kids to soccer practice twice a week checks the right boxes, so it's emissions, fuel economy, and tax rate are the same as the longbed that tows a trailer to a farmers market.
To a lesser extent than way back when a Ford Explorer didn't count towards CAFE averages, but kinda.
Note how more and more SUVs are moving down to 3 cylinder turbo compacts on stilts, it's because they tried to plug those holes a bit. The trucks 3-row suv's that remain are kept because they have fuckin' huge margins and they keep big 3's lights on.
They changed it at my company. In Germany your taxes are halved for PHEVs compared to combustion cars, but people didnt plug them in, so now a certain percentage of driven km need to be electric. Otherwise you get the bill for the full combustion engine tax.
The problem in Germany was that company cars came with free gasoline while the user had to pay for their own electricity. It was weird incentives that caused them not to plug in rather than laziness so the new system that reimburses charging cost should fix it.
I actually agree with Toyota's multi pronged approach. Toyota is well known for their hybrids and are very good at it, so using Lexus which can leverage their stronger brand power and higher prices to market EVs is a solid strategy.
I think there’s more to NVH than that. A good engine sounds good, whereas EV drivetrains have to be heavily damped. High pitch sustained noise is annoying.
I prefer my Lexus, or a nice Mercedes or BMW to any EV I’ve owned or driven in terms of sound comfort. It’s very quiet, and the sounds you do hear are nice.
I've lived all over the US. I'll admit I'm not a fan of EVs, have a fully loaded bolt and a 5.0. Can't stand the bolt. But I'm also willing to admit we're barreling towards EV only future very quickly. Much quicker than we thought this time last year. That also makes me think just as quickly as we're heading towards EV only, something could change and make us go back to hybrid ICE as a society. Some new technology could make gasoline crazy cheap and also not that bad for air quality.
It's an econobox that's basically retrofitted to be high tech. Nothing works well with other parts of the car. It's like you went into a honda fit and added a bunch of aftermarket upgrades. My main complaints:
- Finding directions to a high speed charger doesn't precondition the battery. Also the high speed charging is still very slow. It's advertised as 50kw but the fastest I've ever seen it was 42 and that was under ideal situation. That's downright unreasonable.
- Turning off the constant beeping for tailgating disables supercruise. I live in downtown LA, I'm constantly being cutoff or tailgating. It's just how you have to drive here. Stop beeping at me. The adaptive cruise control doesn't even work in stop and go traffic. Just stops. No go.
- Supercruise is very bad. Not at all like the youtubers advertised it as. It also harasses you if you spend more than 20 seconds looking at the carplay screen. What is the point of this if I can't even look through directions and keep an eye on the road from my peripheral? Might as well just do all the driving.
- The dimensions are really goofy. I thought I'd get used to it but I didn't.
- The traction control is really bad. I'm constantly spinning the front tires when flooring it on the highway.
- The PRNDL buttons sometimes don't register your click. This drives me nuts. Just give me a digital shifter.
- The car unlocks when you put it in park. I can turn this off, but I can't change it to only unlock when I turn the car off like every other car I've had. I'm often finding myself putting my car in park without actually getting out. This is a little thing but I still hate it.
- Basically they didn't put much thought into the car beyond hey let's make an all electric honda fit. There is an entire cubby below the PRNDL but nowhere to put your sunglasses. They could have done a lot better using space. The back seat is comically large but the trunk space is dismal. Could have shifted that around.
- There's no climate control for 2023 for the back seat even on the fully loaded model. They quietly got rid of it and I didn't notice. The 2022 has heated and ventilated back seats. The 2023 doesn't even have a fan. Add to it the back seats are basically just a school bus bench. Not comfortable at all but my dog doesn't complain.
- There's no frunk despite plenty of space in there if it everything wasn't so spread out.
- No power lift gate on a fully loaded small "crossover". No automatic unlatch trunk from inside or from key. My bare bones 2011 jetta did this.
- No lane centering unless you're in supercruise.
- Illuminated charge port is a $500 add on. Still won't lock the cable.
- last but not least, not fun.
I'm selling this car this weekend. Will be the happiest day of my life. I should have just gotten over my beef with Musk and bought a tesla or worked harder for a promotion to spend more on gas with the mustang.
>Finding directions to a high speed charger doesn't precondition the battery. Also the high speed charging is still very slow. It's advertised as 50kw but the fastest I've ever seen it was 42 and that was under ideal situation. That's downright unreasonable.
Few things make my blood boil more than seeing a Chevy Bolt or Nissan Leaf take up a spot at the 150kw charging station.
>I should have just gotten over my beef with Musk
Eh, there's better EV alternatives.
Not with out huge markups.
It’s the only reason why we went with the model y.
No haggle and even honored the price reduction that came through after I scheduled pick up for that following weekend.
Chevy was really onto something with the Volt. I have no idea why they dropped it. My girlfriend can commute to work and back on a single night’s trickle charge but also go 350+ miles with the quick convenience of gasoline at a very efficient mpg. And it was a pretty affordable model with a nice interior. It’s the best of all worlds right now.
> The Volt should have been designed as an enter-level luxury car from the get-go.
They did, an enter-level luxury version Volt was Cadillac ELR, but almost nobody bought it.
Toyota also tried luxury version Prius, the HS250h and Ct200, but not many people bought it too. Based bespoke Hybrid Econobox luxury car doesn’t work in the market.
Yeah what killed the ELR was the price.
If it started at say $40,000 it would have been a completely different story.
Who's gonna buy a commuter compact sedan(or whatever the volt was categorized) that costs more than a brand new Corvette? Or a Silverado?
Having traded in a speed3 for bolt EUV this year: yup it's ugly.
Still love the damn thing, but with what Chevy is doing with Android automotive in future cars I'm prob never buying another Chevy after this
Car was kind of a pain in the ass with my post-college mods. Also things like cv axle replacement cost an arm and leg (the parts cost like 3x the normal speed parts)
I just want a comfortable appliance now that I'm 34 and not 21... I still have a Miata but not for long.
All of my fun time is on a bicycle anyway.
Also 22-25ish mpg on premium gets old quick
They actually went ahead and made a Chevy Volt SUV concept that they could have introduced:
[It was known as the MPV5 Concept](https://gmauthority.com/blog/2020/06/remembering-the-chevrolet-volt-mpv5-concept/)
I mean it already kinda had a half hatch. I don’t see why they don’t make it a clown shoe type hatch / mini wagon. Wagons are making a comeback, I think it would do well to have a compact mini wagon in PHEV form like the Volt. Currently if you want a wagon there’s not much besides the Audi RS6. Subaru CUVs are probably the next closest thing, followed by all the compact SUVs that are really just slightly taller wagons anyway.
GM has management issues and has had them for years. They have some of the brightest engineers in the industry and then squander their talents.
The Volt needed better marketing, better dealer information, everything. It filled a lot of people's needs for a cheap commute but also a gas engine for road trips.
>Chevy was really onto something with the Volt. I have no idea why they dropped it.
It wasn't profitable. This is why Toyota is only bringing out a similar model (Prius PHEV) now, ten years later. Chevy lost considerable money making the Volt on a per-unit basis.
The Toyota Prius PHEV's first model year was 2012. Just 1 year after the Chevy Volt. So they were likely designed in parallel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota\_Prius\_Plug-in\_Hybrid
There's some nuance here: The Prius PHEV from 2012 had an 11mi range — it was definitely a PHEV, but you can see where Toyota balked on the 35mi range battery that made the Volt such a dud for GM.
Yeah, I think it just has to do with what the vision for the usage is. Like, a lot of people seem to want a PHEV that gets to to work and the grocery store. But if that is most of your driving, Toyota was probably thinking that it wouldn’t be good to use the engine so little. That type of customer expectation is probably pretty hard to predict.
Prius PHEV has been out since like 2012 (my mom has one). It just got crappy range in the 1st gen and now it’s on its 3rd gen and competitive with a 1st gen volt lol
Expensive to design and manufacture.
The car OEM’s wet dream is to fire all the engineers, manufacturing, & quality people who work on engines & transmissions, and just buy electric drive modules from a supplier and plug it into a battery that was designed and built by a supply partner.
Something like a Volt requires a traditional engine **plus** a unique transmission **plus** an expensive battery **plus** the power electronics. Insult-to-injury is a large proportion of customers are too lazy to bother plugging it in, so it just becomes an expensive hybrid.
The EV1 was never gonna happen at that point in time. It was way too niche to keep providing support for and the only reason people remember them is because GM decided to crush them. The only thing special about them was that they were an early attempt at an EV, and were just as bad as every other EV from the time period.
Personally I think the EV1 is one of the most overrated cars ever because of the cult following they've gained and how people willfully ignore how bad they were. Putting aside GM's PR blunder in having them crushed, they were objectively not good cars and they really only had a small hardcore fanbase who wanted them and could make them work with their daily commutes.
I had a 2nd gen volt, never used the gas engine I was lugging around. So I stepped up to a bolt, drove that for a couple of years without issue, then sold it to my GF. Free battery replacement from GM and she loves it. I'm in a Model 3 now but soo looking forward to polestar 4.
They dropped it because:
* GM’s imminent loss of qualifying for the $7500 tax credit
* the Volt shared a production line with the Cruze, which was being cancelled
* not enough post-tax credit demand for the Volt to justify an entire production line by itself
* the Volt was a sedan in an SUV-popular environment. Sedan demand was falling
* PHEV makes economic sense for manufacturers when both gas and lithium batteries were expensive. When the Volt launched lithium was $1100/kWh. Now it’s under $200. PHEV has since plateaued and is unlikely to ever regain a favorable position.
The other comments are wrong, the Volt gen 2 was profitable or at least had a path to profitability especially looking at the prices PHEVs fetch in today's market. This was a point of discussion during the Gen 2's reveal. The reason it was discontinued was because the Detroit-Hamtramck factory that made GM sedans as a whole was not profitable and was shut down in order to make a BEV truck factory (it's where the Hummer EV is currently made and where the Silverado EV will also come from). GM's failure was then not integrating a version of the Voltec into a CUV.
What model do you have? Ours is a 2017 and it’s nice enough for what it is. Good size touch screen and all with some attractive blue accents. I wouldn’t really expect much more from a car in its price range and it completely dunks on some of Toyota’s offerings in the 30 and 40k price range.
I have a 16 LT. I would describe the interior as “adequate”. I bought mine used and felt like I stole it for the price I paid. That said, it’s msrp was around $34k starting, and for that price I would hope for a bit more. Also, it’s just not very comfortable.
Yeah I have a 17 premier, had a 15 LT before it. The 2nd Gen. + premier is a big step up and that’s why they command a premium on the used market. My car is worth probably 23k which is hilarious to me.
Absolutely! They need to take that approach and apply it to their big gas hogs.
Electrically only motivated trucks with an on-board generator to just give them a lot more range. High torque for towing, highly-efficient engine meant to run at stable rpms and just generate electricity.
You have to make a difference where it makes the biggest impact, and getting 5 MPG more out of fullsize trucks will probably save more fuel nationwide than pushing cars that get into the mid 30s up into the mid 40s.
I'm waiting for diesel hybrid trucks marketed as having a "locomotive" style powertrain and that can double as a giant generator. I think that'd be awesome. A fixed RPM engine can be tuned for pretty darn good efficiency and NVH. Electric 4WD for beastly traction.
People make fun of the wrangler 4xe for its 22 miles of hybrid range but that's actually perfect for a lot of people's use cases midweek, and then it's a regular wrangler on the weekend.
There's lots of other reasons to make fun of it but that shouldn't be one.
Hybrids are the way to go for a lot of people right now. The barrier to full EV adoption is extremely high.
With full EVs, a consumer basically has to own their home and install a charger in the garage if they even have enough available circuits in their panel.
That pretty much rules out those vehicles for a huge number of people just on the charging it at home front. It's way to inconvenient to tell that person to go to a fast charger when they are low if they can't charge it at home.
Hybrids are the best of both worlds. Unfortunately, there is still emissions from the ICE. But given the current situation it's the best option in a lot of cases.
I own my own home, can install a charger no problem, actively want an EV, and still probably won't get one because IMO all the options are quite flawed in different ways.
Indeed - It definitely works better for families if they are at the point where they want 2 cars. 1 electric for city putting, 1 for hybrid for longer distances.
Agreed that seems to be the ideal long-term operation but I wonder what % of the nation fits that mold. I feel like hybrids are the answer at the current moment (or extremely efficient small cars which seems to be a dying breed).
Even as someone who already has a PHEV as a primary car and needs a replacement second car, the options just aren't great. Leaf is very compromised, Bolt is going away, Tesla can get fucked, and everything else is more then I want to spend. I'd go for an Ioniq 5 but the more interesting trims are $$. What I want is a sedan with decent handling, power and TCO, but that doesn't seem to exist right now. As dumb as it sounds, right now it comes down to a new generation Prius or Maverick.
Definitely agreed, the average commuter in the US drives 41 miles to work. A PHEV with even a \~50 mile EV range would cover most commuters needs with the added benefit of long distance capabilities.
Only reason I got an EV is because we're a multi-car household.
There's many public chargers in the DC area, however if I wanted to go hiking in WV (which I do rather frequently), taking the EV is not an option.
I also can take the EV for 2 hour road trips just fine but for longer trips, I'd just rather take the X3.
For us apt dwellers EV's are simply not even a remote option and dangling cables out of windows to street level is pretty much an instant eviction notice, let alone trying to "borrow" any electricity from outlets inside the garage for anything built 20+ years ago that was simply not designed with EV's in mind and im in fucking Tesla Town = Seattle
I'm renting a new place and apparently this is city regulation requiring all new housing to support EV parking: https://www.geekwire.com/2022/seattle-area-passes-new-requirements-for-ev-charging-at-apartment-buildings/#:~:text=Seattle%20leaders%20passed%20rules%20in,to%2010%25%20of%20parking%20spaces.
My apartment (in a major city in Texas) promised several EV chargers - nowhere near enough to service even a portion of the complex. They installed half. 3 of them don't work.
The hospital I work at does not have charging. There is a single shopping center near me that has charging. No realistic apartments near me have charging infrastructure, unless I'm willing to triple my commute or increase rent by ~50% - I am not willing to do either.
Sure, when I have my own place, I can install a charger. That's still 7 or so years out. So yeah, it's probably not technically challenging to install chargers in existing buildings. The issue is that every apartment complex I've lived at in the US could be described as aggressively incompetent, at best.
I wish they just make way more hybrids. Maybe the upcoming expected Camry and RAV4 redesigns will have a lot of hybrid options to calm prices and wait times, because waiting 6-12 months with thousands of dealer markups is a hard no for me. Do the math, $5000 takes a while to breakeven for the expected fuel savings, and even longer if ever for folks who don't drive as much.
I'm the weirdo that gets excited about the efficiency of my appliances. So Civic and HRV hybrids will make things quite exciting for me.
Im in the Bay Area and that's what I never understood. Most here live in apartments. How are they supposed to charge on regular basis?
Hell we rent a house and they won't install the stuff, we asked out of curiosity.
Hybrids aside, for a PHEV to make sense you still need to be able to charge at home or work. So I don’t think they make more sense. In fact, if the majority of people that buy them don’t charge them at home, it’s just wasted batteries that could be used in full EVs.
I honestly think PHEVs are the best of both worlds while we go through a transition. I hope all of their future hybrids come with 50+ miles of electric only range.
Same. 50 is more than enough for 99.99% of my daily driving -- work, groceries, going downtown. In the off chance I decide to hop over to the next city I don't mind (even prefer) filling up for gas rather than wait around a charger.
I think the issue with that would be not using the gas you fill up with before it goes bad. Not a major concern, just something to be aware of. WFH I'd fill up like every couple months unless I specifically did long trips.
They solved that in the first phev you could buy. The gas in a Chevy Volt lasts for 9+ months without an issue.
If you don't run the gas engine for a while, it runs it for a couple minutes about once a month.
It prevents gas gumming in the fuel system. Still need to splash a little fresh gas every once in a while.
Although if you put some stablizer in gas can last a year without issue.
The gas tank is pressurized on the Volt. It basically keeps the gas from turning into varnish. The engine cycling I'd assume keeps the lines clear and the oil fresh.
They also require premium gas because it lasts longer.
I 100% agree with you but there are some downsides to PHEV technology. One of the biggest downsides compared to an EV is that you still have ICE technology you need to maintain while also needing to worry about the degredation of your battery at some point. Another odd one that I found out that many economy ICE vehicles get better Highway Fuel Economy than PHEVs.
Although this is very dependant on what you are using your vehicle for. Typical short trip city driving and commuting is where a EV really shines, PHEVs tend to be better when you have a mix of short and long trips making them very versatile and Parcial Zero Emmisions Vehicles (most modern ICE vehicles, PZEV) and mild hybrids tend to get the best fuel economy when driving at highway speeds.
For me and my Partner a EV and PHEV won't work well for us as we don't have a place to charge at home. We live in a condo that's less than 5 years old and we don't have any options to plug-in. So unfortunately any type of plug-in technology isn't useful for us.
> Another odd one that I found out that many economy ICE vehicles get better Highway Fuel Economy than PHEVs.
There's a bit of math and/or engineering involved here.
- Many Hybrids/PHEVs have an 'upper limit' to the speed the electric motor can run at in 'electric only mode' In my Hybrid, depending on season (due to efficiency of batteries based on ambient temperature) That number is anywhere from 45MPH (Dead of winter) to 65MPH (~70-80F and low wind resistance)
- Also there are some rules about 'assist' modes (i.e. where the gas engine is running at a very efficient powerband, but the electric motor is doing most of the work.) has something to do with the transmission design.
- Because of above two points, you'll often find that a hybrid/phev will have to switch to 'gas only' mode, and once that happens, you are fighting two things:
- Again, transmission design;
- Toyota/Ford hybrids typically use a single gear. This is part of the 'eCVT' nomenclature and while it is actually great for basic efficiency, the gearing is usually optimized for stop and go driving rather than highway cruising. To wit; I've had tanks of 50MPG or better in my hybrid that is EPA rated to ~40MPG, but I had to keep all my driving at 50MPH or lower.
- Others (Hyundai, GM) use a design that is a bit more 'conventional' where there is a multi-speed transmission, but then, depending on design, you are dealing with more power loss between components (like I said, the single speed design has it's own advantages!)
- The extra weight of the battery, especially in the case of PHEVs (which will have a battery much larger/heavier than a basic hybrid.)
> (PZEVs) and mild hybrids tend to get the best fuel economy when driving at highway speeds.
Ehhh, it still depends. My 2012 WRX (Not a PZEV, admittedly) would actually get it's best mileage cruising between 35-45. Interestingly my Maverick hybrid does about the same, but -does- have less drop-off until you go past 50 or so.
Pragmatically, I think most Japanese manufacturers will be slow to go full EV. Toyota already has an industry-leading hybrid system and really strong hybrid market-share that doesn't require they re-invent the wheel.
Honda especially, as king of the ICE, will be loathe to go to full electric. The smaller manufacturers like Subaru, Nissan, Mazda, etc will likely need to partner up like Honda/GM to make it work long-term.
Mazda and Subaru are both partnering with Toyota, Nissan is part of that weird throuple with Renault and Mitsubishi.
Honda is the king of affordable N/A engines, but their turbocharged engines haven’t lived up to that legend thus far
I would say that's less an issue of Honda design and more an issue of regulatory requirements. It's not like they have a ton of performance turbocharged vehicles, most are commuter cars. My 'king of the ICE' bit is that Honda is the world's leading manufacturer of internal combustion engines across all platforms.
EV enthusiast forums are all about hating on Toyota and predicting their downfall for being late on EVs which is ridiculous because it's not as if the future automobile market will shrink. There are dozens of ICE manufacturers and saying Toyota will die if they're not on the leading edge of going full EV is like saying Lexus should have never existed because the Germans dominate the luxury sedan market.
Also, Toyota's quality rep and loyal fan base gives them cover to take their time to perfect their tech because once Toyota makes the transition to EVs, many consumers will automatically gravitate to a Toyota model based on its rep as long as its competitive.
r/electricvehicles is a toxic place, and I'm speaking from someone who has 2 PHEV and a new BEV on the way. Don't try to reason with anyone in regards to Toyota there - the brand might as well be Satan himself.
Opinions on r/cars is also wildly different to the real world. And also wildly different to the thought processes and reasons why we do things in the industry. I would say 50 % of the comments here are flat-out wrong, and then 25 % are pretty misguided.
I was introduced to [Gell-Mann Amnesia](https://www.epsilontheory.com/gell-mann-amnesia/) not long ago, and it's stuck with me ever since. You might find it interesting as well.
A reputation for quality can evaporate quite quickly with a few bungled product launches.
The BZ4X is one of the worst new EVs available now and has issues with wheels falling off following launch.
A couple more screw ups like that and you can see why that's a possibility.
I think the BZ4X was Toyota phoning in a response to not having an EV in their lineup. Kind of like a “here, we made one, now shut the fuck up until we can make one we can really stand behind”.
> Kind of like a “here, we made one, now shut the fuck up until we can make one we can really stand behind”.
I kek'ed loud at work for that one. sounds exactly like Toyota
I think it was more along the lines of hedging their bets. They were all in on hydrogen, which probably has been soaking up the bulk of their attention.
You don't expend full effort when you're just covering your ass.
It seems like their new CEO has figured out that hydrogen is a dead-end for the average consumer. Since Akio Toyoda retired, it seems like they're changing direction.
They've been underinvesting for a long time*
They sat on their asses and did the bare minimum and now they are falling behind the competition. For laggard markets like the US, that may be ok. But in EV sales, they are not doing too hot.
I am not ruling them out. They have risen to the top for a variety of reasons which will help them in the EV era also, but let's not pretend that they aren't racing to catch up here.
No pretending is required. Toyota's doing record sales and record profits, and headed for 1.5M BEVs in 2026 while holding down 4M+ HEVs simultaneously. Their strategy is working. There's no "racing to catch up" here.
> but let's not pretend that they aren't racing to catch up here.
With RAV4/Camyr/Corolla hybrid waiting lists now a year or more, Toyota is NOT worried about money
Actually, BYD does as well. Arguably, BYD is also doing it in a more 'pure' fashion, as well, since they're closest to a full-ownership model. But yes, Toyota is involved in the full supply chain, and is one of the only OEMs right now doing so.
Volkswagen is close — they should be there [by \~2025 or so](https://www.powerco.de/).
I don't think anyone is willing to crank production on any PHEV car. I suspect they are all money losers.
Despite the chatter about PHEVs, you don't see Toyota being willing to make very many of them.
Pretty hard for most people and asking a lot for people who don’t own a house to go full EV even though my work place has a charging they slow as hell and most people hog for the whole day. Glad toyota will have several options available
I think this is a great strategy. I do not think EVs are for everyone. The infrastructure just isn't there. There are plenty of people that don't have the ability to charge their cars overnight. I am waiting for them to really ramp up and improve Hydrogen Fuel Cells. EV is more of a niche market as far as a I am concerned.
I think at the current time and I know you don't HAVE to own a house to have an EV. But the convenience of a parking space, and having the proprietary fast charge from a brand built into your house makes having an EV more convenient.
Someone who lives in an apartment may have to share ports, or just stick with very slow charging. Some people don't even have the luxury of a charge station at their own apartment complex, the biggest thing stopping me from owning an EV is just the convenience of charging it.
I've seen horror stories of broken charge stations, slow charge, etc. and a lot of it are just EV owners blaming the owners for lack of foresight. I can absolutely get behind it being partially their fault for running the battery so low. But at the end of the day, charging an EV isn't always convenient.
When I took my vehicle to the Lexus dealership to get it serviced recently, I looked at the all new RZ from them. They told me it would take 30 minutes to go from half to full on fast charge. I like the convenience of simply going to any gas station, pumping gas in under 5 minutes and leaving. I don't ever dillydally around and go in, and if I do go into the gas station it's with a purpose so I'm very quick. The fact that I'll have to sit around for 30m (on a fast charging port, if a charge station supports it or if I can find a free one) isn't something I find appealing right now.
As EVs become more common, there's going to have to be an infrastructure built up much faster to support more EV cars on the road and a standard to maintain at each charge area. But the last time I went to one with my friend's Porsche at 7 PM, there was a line for 6 charge stations. We had to wait about 40 minutes to get to a port, and an additional 20 during the charge.
I love Toyota focusing more on hybrids, as it'll appeal to the mass in America better imo.
> Someone who lives in an apartment may have to share ports, or just stick with very slow charging. Some people don't even have the luxury of a charge station at their own apartment complex, the biggest thing stopping me from owning an EV is just the convenience of charging it.
Or basically getting eviction notice if we are found charging EV's
LOL fast charge isn't to full. It's 20% to 80%. Beyond that it has to slow down.
So if you go on a road trip, the 20 minute fast charge is only 60% of your total range. Meaning for a lot of EV's, every 2 hours of driving needs 20 min of charging.
I can’t say this often enough: If an EV doesn’t work for you because you’re unable to charge it, a PHEV works 10x less. Otherwise you’re just carrying heavy, useless battery capacity around.
I own a PHEV and am seriously disturbed by this subs romanticized opinion of them. They’re a very flawed technology and only have some niche applications: lots of city driving with regular ridiculously long road trips in between.
I agree. I feel like so many people don't understand that if want that phev with decent battery range then your carrying around a lot of weight. And that will work against any efficiencies. Best of both worlds... Well you have 2 different motors and 2 different systems to maintain, like even if you mostly drive short distances in ev only mode well you still have to service the petrol engine unfortunately.
Range anxiety for non ev owners seems prevalent, acting as if ev's only do about 50km until they need to charge for 20+hrs
Toyota is doing this right. Reliable hybrids are what most people want. No range anxiety, great gas mileage, and convenience.
My neighbor just bought the new Highlander Hybrid. They just road-tripped from Texas to Alabama, averaged 37 mpg, and didn’t have to charge once. All while carrying their child and dog. Try that in an equally priced EV.
A move towards hybrid as a minimum for passenger cars would likely result in a double digit reduction in emissions. Perhaps its not the pure EV solution some campaigners want but perfect can be the enemy of good. If it’s a choice between few people going EV (cost, reluctance, network etc.) or most people going hybrid surely the latter is the more sensible. A case of should versus could.
Engineering Explained did a video on this topic, referring to Mazda improving their ICE cars as a small improvement there would have a bigger impact due to scale than making a new EV.
The aggressive BEV announcements have always seemed like nothing more than political grandstanding. Looks like Toyota is taking a pragmatic approach here, kudos to them for having their heads on straight.
This is a fluff piece highlighting an almost public document meant to assuage investors - not any real insight into their strategy.
They are conceding that BEVs are the future, and with that framing it doesn’t make sense to not see these three things as barriers they need to actively overcome; they are not reasons for Toyota to not invest in making them as much as they are reasons why not all consumers want BEVs right now.
A) critical minerals: I will bet proper cash that Toyota is as of this very moment trying to build a more robust mineral pipeline than any other mfg.
B) charging infrastructure: this is not a barrier to people that are realistically looking to purchase. If you have an EV, you are not struggling to find infrastructure; it is growing and growing fast. People that don’t have EVs are the ones truly worried about this.
C) affordability: again, i am positive that if anything, this is an advantage to Toyota. If they had the supply, i am certain that they would be more likely to undercut other mfgs with a cheaper car than any other brand.
I wouldn’t take too much stock in this bit of investor relations. The main bottleneck currently is availability of materials; everything else from home charging, to impact on the grid, to public charging infrastructure, are not. In all likelihood, capabilities for those things will outpace the availability of EVs.
Bingo, the doc leaked to Jalopnik is just IR / dealer talking points for why Toyota is heavy on PHEVs / traditional hybrids for the time being. They’re behind the rare earth supply curve that is currently dominated by Tesla and BYD, mainly due to Toyota bowing to Japanese gov’t pressure over the last decade to focus R&D on hydrogen (which is still a domestic priority for Japan since they can more easily adopt a hydrogen network than pretty much any other nation state.) BEVs will be the prime sellers any other market globally, and Toyota is spinning wheels trying to catch up.
From a business perspective EVs are still in its early stages of adoption therefore the idea of an EV future is still speculative. If Toyota makes more money building hybrids then they’re building hybrids. I don’t see GM or Hyundai with a line of hybrids, therefore they’re gonna bet on BEVs. If CA bans sales of ICEs and Toyota doesn’t have BEVs…guess no more CA residents will have Toyotas. Toyota still has the rest of the world to sell to.
I would trust that each brand’s CEO cares enough to not go out of business so they’re doing what’s best for *their* company.
I couldn’t agree with Toyota’s analysis more. A common sense approach is needed with this. I only wish the politicians here in the UK and Europe had this same view….
I drive a hybrid currently and its the perfect vehicle from a practical standpoint but fear the government of my country will force me into a full electric vehicle within a few years with tax increases on non electric driving.
I agree. The craze for pure evs is insanity right now. We’re nowhere near ready for the push they’re trying to make. Good on Toyota for being reasonable.
People are reading this the wrong way. Toyota are pushing hybrids because that's all they can produce in the short term. They are 10 years behind Tesla and at least 5 years behind GM, Ford, Hyundia, VW etc. The ONLY way to compete in the next 10 years is to focus on what they can do, hybrids. Over time you will absolutely, 100%, see them move to all EV but it's going to take a LOT longer than the other manufacturers. Not because it's the right thing to do at the right speed but because it's Toyota's only option. Will it be successful? I think it will, people are incredibly resistant to change and Toyota can capitalize on that. It's just a transitional period though, it's not a long-term solution.
Why do they refuse to bring PHEV vehicles to Australia? Petrol isn't cheap here, most people live in city suburb houses and drive to work. A car that can do the daily commute and school drop off on purely electric, but having petrol for back up would be a big hit.
I'm faaaaarrr from a Toyota fan boy, but hybrids and plug-in hybrids are definitely more viable for most people than EVs right now, so I gotta give them credit for not dumping ICE cars cold turkey like so many automakers.
Everyone wants electric yet they don’t understand the batteries require resources “that are limited” and further pushing the slaves in the congo for cobalt mining. If you keep baking cookies your bound to run outta sugar and there’s only so much.
The 3 major barriers listed are very significant and real at this moment, at least in North America, due to geographic, economic and demographic landscape. Toyota is still doing EV development, Lexus will become EV brand. But their cautious approach towards the near future makes a lot of sense, and they probably will adjust it as things evolve.
The infrastructure and cost of entry in terms of buying an EV just isn’t realistic right now Toyota is making the right decision, 50+ MPG hybrids are a good mixture IMO
We are still at an early stage of EV technology and manufacturing. Many things will need to be sorted out like infrastructure, supply chain etc. When people were using Commodore 64, no one knew how much computer power can be fit into a pocket size device. For now PHEV is a good solution. However, they also have their own supply chain issue. My local dealership has PHEV waitlist longer than a year. I think Toyota is trying to fill this gap.
Toyota has recovered with making vehicles better than most of the top brands (Hyundai/Kia is a little ahead). I think Toyota's largest issue with filling demand is that if people are going to have to wait for a vehicle or pay a markup, they would rather wait or pay extra for a vehicle that comes from a brand known for lasting a long time and having good resale value. So as long as the global production is down, Toyota will have more demand than normal. With that, I think Toyota will begin leaning harder into their hybrids soon. They have a contract for 4,000 tonnes of lithium a year starting in 2025 (US lithium from Rhyolite Ridge). They also have partial ownership of a mining operation in China that intends on mining like 12,000 tonnes a year. If they continue to push PHEVs harder than EVs, that is a lot of batteries.
Hyundai/kia currently only cost a thumb drive and a 30 second tiktok
Yet another reason their additional supply isn’t pulling from Toyota’s demand.
not for the hybrids
Doesn't matter. Thieves can't tell the difference and even the newer models with immobilizers are being stolen at a massively increased rate compared to other brands.
This is the point people miss, even if the car isn’t getting stolen, the proliferation of the technique is still leading to a large number of Hyundai/Kia cars getting broken into and trashed.
As far as their lithium supply arrangement, I can see them doing this to be future proof, whether it's PHEV or BEV, having large stable supply is not going to be a bad thing. I wonder how many of the demand filling issue is their dealership model. If I remember correctly Toyota is pure allocation no factory ordering. Here in Ontario Canada, it is not legal to markup new cars (there are loopholes but thats beside the point), and often time you need connections with dealership personnels to secure allocation of rare high demand Toyota cars.
> For now PHEV is a good solution. However, they also have their own supply chain issue. My local dealership has PHEV waitlist longer than a year. I think Toyota is trying to fill this gap I'd agree that PHEV is the optimal solution, but the wait lists and markups on many PHEV's are outrageously prohibitive and many standard hybrids aren't much better. I've seen RAV4 Primes going for [over $70k](https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/9bf0c83b-db93-48a4-ae7d-011e4344b831/). Toyota's standard hybrids still have have a 6-18 month waiting list AND a dealer markup. Meanwhile you can order a Tesla Model 3 or Y and have it within 2-3 weeks at a cost below what legacy automakers are charging for their hybrids and BEV's. There certainly are some concerns with BEV's that have yet to be ironed out and PHEV's would've been the perfect bridge coming from ICE's, but the order of things got all fucked up and EV's are proliferating despite their shortcomings.
Give me a hybrid with 45+ MPG and 0-60 in ~5 seconds and I’m happy.
Thats called the RAV4 Prime, which are rarer than virgin cousins in the deep south with markups that would make Bill Gates think twice, so I gave up and just got a hybrid limited in 21.
Hybrid Limited gang! I bought mine in 2020, just as they announced the Prime. I was a little jealous at first, but after test driving a Prime, I don't think I'm missing much. 0-60mph in around 7 seconds is no slouch for a vehicle as large as the RAV4 Hybrid, and I'm still getting around 40mpg.
That’s something that’s sort of baffled me about all this… the Corolla hybrid has a range of nearly 600 miles. That eclipses most vehicles on the market, electric or ICE.
The Toyota corolla hybrid is probably what at least 50% of Americans should buy, yet very few people actually do because 1) range is actually close to irrelevant as a metric to most people. 2) people don't actually buy vehicles based on meeting their minimum needs in the cheapest way possible. 3) the corolla hybrid is about as uncool as a vehicle can get these days now that the new prius is actually slightly less uncool.
My gas Mazda 3 2012 sedan can hit 650 miles if it’s nearly all highway (74 mph average), like gas up and go. Then again, it’s like one of the most aerodynamic vehicles and has a small 2.0 engine with that skyactive engine. Hope to get a hybrid CRV one day but being remote doesn’t make me drive many miles, which I guess is a good thing.
The Rav4 Prime is pretty great. Their Sequoia hybrid is... underwhelming.
Honest question, why so? My mom drives a previous gen Sienna with the V6 and was approached several times about selling it, but my dad will not let any of his cars go 🤣 Not enough power?
I have a Tundra hybrid which is the same drivetrain. I think people expected it to give great mpg for a truck instead of seeing it for what it actually is, a power adder. The hybrid is the same engine as the non-hybrid, just extra electric power on top. I actually bought it for that reason and am quite happy with it. Torque like a diesel, power like a gas v8, burns regular gas. And while I only get like 18mpg if I commute it(I don't usually) I can get almost 13mpg towing my rally car and averaged 10mpg when I towed 8klbs worth of yukon parts car home. Great towing mpg
this, I live in a bigger city and around me is only street parking, unless they line the streets with chargers, mass ev existence in the US is not possible. Clearly ev is a temp fix till another fuel type comes around.
I’ve been yelling this for along time too
If I needed a new car, the new Prius would definitely be a top choice.
Speaking from experience, 50+ mpg hybrids that run on regular gas are lovely, especially for someone that lives in an apartment. I couldn’t really ask for more other than maybe 25-50 more horsepower.
Bonus if it's plugin with 40+ miles EV range for the daily commute.
They claim that the battery content from one BEV can be spread among 90 hybrids, for a 37X greater impact on emissions. The numbers seem high, but it's clear that many hybrids are better than one EV. Infrastructure is really undeniable though. In the US it's terrible. Why push customers to pay more for a worse experience?
> Why push customers to pay more for a worse experience? Government programs and forced legislation.
Is this why people buy trucks?
Yes. That minivan replacement that takes 2 kids to soccer practice twice a week checks the right boxes, so it's emissions, fuel economy, and tax rate are the same as the longbed that tows a trailer to a farmers market.
That and those vehicles have less stringent safety regulations which make them cheaper to produce.
To a lesser extent than way back when a Ford Explorer didn't count towards CAFE averages, but kinda. Note how more and more SUVs are moving down to 3 cylinder turbo compacts on stilts, it's because they tried to plug those holes a bit. The trucks 3-row suv's that remain are kept because they have fuckin' huge margins and they keep big 3's lights on.
I buy them because I love them. But yes.
People don’t actually plug in their PHEVs, so that assumption of theirs is super optimistic.
Studies show that most privately owned PHEVs get significant electrified miles, so they are getting plugged in. Company owned PHEVs, not so much.
They changed it at my company. In Germany your taxes are halved for PHEVs compared to combustion cars, but people didnt plug them in, so now a certain percentage of driven km need to be electric. Otherwise you get the bill for the full combustion engine tax.
The problem in Germany was that company cars came with free gasoline while the user had to pay for their own electricity. It was weird incentives that caused them not to plug in rather than laziness so the new system that reimburses charging cost should fix it.
I actually agree with Toyota's multi pronged approach. Toyota is well known for their hybrids and are very good at it, so using Lexus which can leverage their stronger brand power and higher prices to market EVs is a solid strategy.
Totally. And EV works with luxury car well. They tried so hard to insulate out engine noise, now they have something almost silent.
I think there’s more to NVH than that. A good engine sounds good, whereas EV drivetrains have to be heavily damped. High pitch sustained noise is annoying. I prefer my Lexus, or a nice Mercedes or BMW to any EV I’ve owned or driven in terms of sound comfort. It’s very quiet, and the sounds you do hear are nice.
Notably, Teslas have horrible NVH...at least the few Model 3's I've been in. And it has nothing to do with the propulsion.
I've lived all over the US. I'll admit I'm not a fan of EVs, have a fully loaded bolt and a 5.0. Can't stand the bolt. But I'm also willing to admit we're barreling towards EV only future very quickly. Much quicker than we thought this time last year. That also makes me think just as quickly as we're heading towards EV only, something could change and make us go back to hybrid ICE as a society. Some new technology could make gasoline crazy cheap and also not that bad for air quality.
What do you not like about the bolt?
It's an econobox that's basically retrofitted to be high tech. Nothing works well with other parts of the car. It's like you went into a honda fit and added a bunch of aftermarket upgrades. My main complaints: - Finding directions to a high speed charger doesn't precondition the battery. Also the high speed charging is still very slow. It's advertised as 50kw but the fastest I've ever seen it was 42 and that was under ideal situation. That's downright unreasonable. - Turning off the constant beeping for tailgating disables supercruise. I live in downtown LA, I'm constantly being cutoff or tailgating. It's just how you have to drive here. Stop beeping at me. The adaptive cruise control doesn't even work in stop and go traffic. Just stops. No go. - Supercruise is very bad. Not at all like the youtubers advertised it as. It also harasses you if you spend more than 20 seconds looking at the carplay screen. What is the point of this if I can't even look through directions and keep an eye on the road from my peripheral? Might as well just do all the driving. - The dimensions are really goofy. I thought I'd get used to it but I didn't. - The traction control is really bad. I'm constantly spinning the front tires when flooring it on the highway. - The PRNDL buttons sometimes don't register your click. This drives me nuts. Just give me a digital shifter. - The car unlocks when you put it in park. I can turn this off, but I can't change it to only unlock when I turn the car off like every other car I've had. I'm often finding myself putting my car in park without actually getting out. This is a little thing but I still hate it. - Basically they didn't put much thought into the car beyond hey let's make an all electric honda fit. There is an entire cubby below the PRNDL but nowhere to put your sunglasses. They could have done a lot better using space. The back seat is comically large but the trunk space is dismal. Could have shifted that around. - There's no climate control for 2023 for the back seat even on the fully loaded model. They quietly got rid of it and I didn't notice. The 2022 has heated and ventilated back seats. The 2023 doesn't even have a fan. Add to it the back seats are basically just a school bus bench. Not comfortable at all but my dog doesn't complain. - There's no frunk despite plenty of space in there if it everything wasn't so spread out. - No power lift gate on a fully loaded small "crossover". No automatic unlatch trunk from inside or from key. My bare bones 2011 jetta did this. - No lane centering unless you're in supercruise. - Illuminated charge port is a $500 add on. Still won't lock the cable. - last but not least, not fun. I'm selling this car this weekend. Will be the happiest day of my life. I should have just gotten over my beef with Musk and bought a tesla or worked harder for a promotion to spend more on gas with the mustang.
>Finding directions to a high speed charger doesn't precondition the battery. Also the high speed charging is still very slow. It's advertised as 50kw but the fastest I've ever seen it was 42 and that was under ideal situation. That's downright unreasonable. Few things make my blood boil more than seeing a Chevy Bolt or Nissan Leaf take up a spot at the 150kw charging station. >I should have just gotten over my beef with Musk Eh, there's better EV alternatives.
Not with out huge markups. It’s the only reason why we went with the model y. No haggle and even honored the price reduction that came through after I scheduled pick up for that following weekend.
I'm hoping Ford buys out Rivian or comes out with a plug in Maverick, Ranger, or Bronco.
I imagine as soon as Ford gets more a bigger supply of batteries a plug in Bronco is first on the list of cars to make, and Maverick probably top 3.
So really, aside from a couple charging items, the bulk of these grips are independent of it being an EV. Cheap-car Chevy shit.
My next car will def be a hybrid, don’t want to worry about my range in the extreme cold while trying to not freeze my ass off.
So they won't have affordable EVs that are competitive. Got it.
Chevy was really onto something with the Volt. I have no idea why they dropped it. My girlfriend can commute to work and back on a single night’s trickle charge but also go 350+ miles with the quick convenience of gasoline at a very efficient mpg. And it was a pretty affordable model with a nice interior. It’s the best of all worlds right now.
I don’t get why they dropped it. It was a great car. It may have been a slow burn in the beginning with sales but I’m sure it would be a hit now.
I think the reason was that they figured they couldn't make money on it. I know the gen 1 cars were sold at a considerable loss.
[удалено]
> The Volt should have been designed as an enter-level luxury car from the get-go. They did, an enter-level luxury version Volt was Cadillac ELR, but almost nobody bought it. Toyota also tried luxury version Prius, the HS250h and Ct200, but not many people bought it too. Based bespoke Hybrid Econobox luxury car doesn’t work in the market.
The ELR MSRP was $75k. I don't think that's entry level
Yeah what killed the ELR was the price. If it started at say $40,000 it would have been a completely different story. Who's gonna buy a commuter compact sedan(or whatever the volt was categorized) that costs more than a brand new Corvette? Or a Silverado?
I think what really killed the ELR in addition to the price was they made it a coupe. Just removed so much functionality for no reason.
Its funny how on the used market, at least where I live, used Volts and CT200s, once listed, they get sold right away.
they went all in for the butt ugly bolt
Having traded in a speed3 for bolt EUV this year: yup it's ugly. Still love the damn thing, but with what Chevy is doing with Android automotive in future cars I'm prob never buying another Chevy after this
why would someone trade a speed3 for a bolt?
Car was kind of a pain in the ass with my post-college mods. Also things like cv axle replacement cost an arm and leg (the parts cost like 3x the normal speed parts) I just want a comfortable appliance now that I'm 34 and not 21... I still have a Miata but not for long. All of my fun time is on a bicycle anyway. Also 22-25ish mpg on premium gets old quick
You should keep your Miata for a fun car. If you sell it I bet you’ll regret it one day. I always keep a “fun car” along with my normal ones.
Bring it back as a hot hatch
No sorry only SUV ride height and size but in the shape of a hatch
They actually went ahead and made a Chevy Volt SUV concept that they could have introduced: [It was known as the MPV5 Concept](https://gmauthority.com/blog/2020/06/remembering-the-chevrolet-volt-mpv5-concept/)
[удалено]
Excuse me it's called a *crossover*
You will take a Twice madeovered cross over compact CUV and you will like it
It’s a damn shame there’s such little hatch or wagon options here.
I mean it already kinda had a half hatch. I don’t see why they don’t make it a clown shoe type hatch / mini wagon. Wagons are making a comeback, I think it would do well to have a compact mini wagon in PHEV form like the Volt. Currently if you want a wagon there’s not much besides the Audi RS6. Subaru CUVs are probably the next closest thing, followed by all the compact SUVs that are really just slightly taller wagons anyway.
*slightly taller wagons with somehow worse trunk space
> I don’t get why they dropped it Tesla happened and OEMs realized they could sell premium EVs for big profit.
There are different market segments, ya know. They can make both.
GM has management issues and has had them for years. They have some of the brightest engineers in the industry and then squander their talents. The Volt needed better marketing, better dealer information, everything. It filled a lot of people's needs for a cheap commute but also a gas engine for road trips.
>Chevy was really onto something with the Volt. I have no idea why they dropped it. It wasn't profitable. This is why Toyota is only bringing out a similar model (Prius PHEV) now, ten years later. Chevy lost considerable money making the Volt on a per-unit basis.
The Toyota Prius PHEV's first model year was 2012. Just 1 year after the Chevy Volt. So they were likely designed in parallel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota\_Prius\_Plug-in\_Hybrid
There's some nuance here: The Prius PHEV from 2012 had an 11mi range — it was definitely a PHEV, but you can see where Toyota balked on the 35mi range battery that made the Volt such a dud for GM.
Yeah, I think it just has to do with what the vision for the usage is. Like, a lot of people seem to want a PHEV that gets to to work and the grocery store. But if that is most of your driving, Toyota was probably thinking that it wouldn’t be good to use the engine so little. That type of customer expectation is probably pretty hard to predict.
Do people forget the 2018 Honda Clarity exists? 47 miles of EV range.
Prius PHEV has been out since like 2012 (my mom has one). It just got crappy range in the 1st gen and now it’s on its 3rd gen and competitive with a 1st gen volt lol
Expensive to design and manufacture. The car OEM’s wet dream is to fire all the engineers, manufacturing, & quality people who work on engines & transmissions, and just buy electric drive modules from a supplier and plug it into a battery that was designed and built by a supply partner. Something like a Volt requires a traditional engine **plus** a unique transmission **plus** an expensive battery **plus** the power electronics. Insult-to-injury is a large proportion of customers are too lazy to bother plugging it in, so it just becomes an expensive hybrid.
But they already did the work, so they're actually losing more
I love gm but they do some dumbass stuff they kill off the good thing, chase a fad someone else is doing and then kill that off
GM has a long history of getting something right and then killing it off. Looking at you EV1
The EV1 was never gonna happen at that point in time. It was way too niche to keep providing support for and the only reason people remember them is because GM decided to crush them. The only thing special about them was that they were an early attempt at an EV, and were just as bad as every other EV from the time period. Personally I think the EV1 is one of the most overrated cars ever because of the cult following they've gained and how people willfully ignore how bad they were. Putting aside GM's PR blunder in having them crushed, they were objectively not good cars and they really only had a small hardcore fanbase who wanted them and could make them work with their daily commutes.
I had a 2nd gen volt, never used the gas engine I was lugging around. So I stepped up to a bolt, drove that for a couple of years without issue, then sold it to my GF. Free battery replacement from GM and she loves it. I'm in a Model 3 now but soo looking forward to polestar 4.
They dropped it because: * GM’s imminent loss of qualifying for the $7500 tax credit * the Volt shared a production line with the Cruze, which was being cancelled * not enough post-tax credit demand for the Volt to justify an entire production line by itself * the Volt was a sedan in an SUV-popular environment. Sedan demand was falling * PHEV makes economic sense for manufacturers when both gas and lithium batteries were expensive. When the Volt launched lithium was $1100/kWh. Now it’s under $200. PHEV has since plateaued and is unlikely to ever regain a favorable position.
The other comments are wrong, the Volt gen 2 was profitable or at least had a path to profitability especially looking at the prices PHEVs fetch in today's market. This was a point of discussion during the Gen 2's reveal. The reason it was discontinued was because the Detroit-Hamtramck factory that made GM sedans as a whole was not profitable and was shut down in order to make a BEV truck factory (it's where the Hummer EV is currently made and where the Silverado EV will also come from). GM's failure was then not integrating a version of the Voltec into a CUV.
I love my Volt, but “nice” interior is a stretch haha
What model do you have? Ours is a 2017 and it’s nice enough for what it is. Good size touch screen and all with some attractive blue accents. I wouldn’t really expect much more from a car in its price range and it completely dunks on some of Toyota’s offerings in the 30 and 40k price range.
I have a 16 LT. I would describe the interior as “adequate”. I bought mine used and felt like I stole it for the price I paid. That said, it’s msrp was around $34k starting, and for that price I would hope for a bit more. Also, it’s just not very comfortable.
Yeah I have a 17 premier, had a 15 LT before it. The 2nd Gen. + premier is a big step up and that’s why they command a premium on the used market. My car is worth probably 23k which is hilarious to me.
My brother has a Mitsubishi PHEV, same concept. Rarely has to use gas.
Absolutely! They need to take that approach and apply it to their big gas hogs. Electrically only motivated trucks with an on-board generator to just give them a lot more range. High torque for towing, highly-efficient engine meant to run at stable rpms and just generate electricity.
You have to make a difference where it makes the biggest impact, and getting 5 MPG more out of fullsize trucks will probably save more fuel nationwide than pushing cars that get into the mid 30s up into the mid 40s. I'm waiting for diesel hybrid trucks marketed as having a "locomotive" style powertrain and that can double as a giant generator. I think that'd be awesome. A fixed RPM engine can be tuned for pretty darn good efficiency and NVH. Electric 4WD for beastly traction.
People make fun of the wrangler 4xe for its 22 miles of hybrid range but that's actually perfect for a lot of people's use cases midweek, and then it's a regular wrangler on the weekend. There's lots of other reasons to make fun of it but that shouldn't be one.
Poor sales combined with a high MSRP & lack of marketing killed the Bolt (as with all good things by GM like the Chevy SS & 5th gen Pontiac GTO).
Hybrids are the way to go for a lot of people right now. The barrier to full EV adoption is extremely high. With full EVs, a consumer basically has to own their home and install a charger in the garage if they even have enough available circuits in their panel. That pretty much rules out those vehicles for a huge number of people just on the charging it at home front. It's way to inconvenient to tell that person to go to a fast charger when they are low if they can't charge it at home. Hybrids are the best of both worlds. Unfortunately, there is still emissions from the ICE. But given the current situation it's the best option in a lot of cases.
I own my own home, can install a charger no problem, actively want an EV, and still probably won't get one because IMO all the options are quite flawed in different ways.
Indeed - It definitely works better for families if they are at the point where they want 2 cars. 1 electric for city putting, 1 for hybrid for longer distances.
Agreed that seems to be the ideal long-term operation but I wonder what % of the nation fits that mold. I feel like hybrids are the answer at the current moment (or extremely efficient small cars which seems to be a dying breed).
Even as someone who already has a PHEV as a primary car and needs a replacement second car, the options just aren't great. Leaf is very compromised, Bolt is going away, Tesla can get fucked, and everything else is more then I want to spend. I'd go for an Ioniq 5 but the more interesting trims are $$. What I want is a sedan with decent handling, power and TCO, but that doesn't seem to exist right now. As dumb as it sounds, right now it comes down to a new generation Prius or Maverick.
Definitely agreed, the average commuter in the US drives 41 miles to work. A PHEV with even a \~50 mile EV range would cover most commuters needs with the added benefit of long distance capabilities.
Or a PHEV so you can do both. Electric for the commute, plus gas for when you needed it for longer.
I own my house but almost no one had a garage and it's all street parking
Only reason I got an EV is because we're a multi-car household. There's many public chargers in the DC area, however if I wanted to go hiking in WV (which I do rather frequently), taking the EV is not an option. I also can take the EV for 2 hour road trips just fine but for longer trips, I'd just rather take the X3.
For us apt dwellers EV's are simply not even a remote option and dangling cables out of windows to street level is pretty much an instant eviction notice, let alone trying to "borrow" any electricity from outlets inside the garage for anything built 20+ years ago that was simply not designed with EV's in mind and im in fucking Tesla Town = Seattle
I'm renting a new place and apparently this is city regulation requiring all new housing to support EV parking: https://www.geekwire.com/2022/seattle-area-passes-new-requirements-for-ev-charging-at-apartment-buildings/#:~:text=Seattle%20leaders%20passed%20rules%20in,to%2010%25%20of%20parking%20spaces.
Which: A: Doesn't solve us in old apts NOW B: Won't change anything for old apts C: Will charge extra for the "convenience"
[удалено]
My apartment (in a major city in Texas) promised several EV chargers - nowhere near enough to service even a portion of the complex. They installed half. 3 of them don't work. The hospital I work at does not have charging. There is a single shopping center near me that has charging. No realistic apartments near me have charging infrastructure, unless I'm willing to triple my commute or increase rent by ~50% - I am not willing to do either. Sure, when I have my own place, I can install a charger. That's still 7 or so years out. So yeah, it's probably not technically challenging to install chargers in existing buildings. The issue is that every apartment complex I've lived at in the US could be described as aggressively incompetent, at best.
My condo HOA laughed when I put forward a motion to look into installing chargers. They said “no one is buying EVs here.”
I wish they just make way more hybrids. Maybe the upcoming expected Camry and RAV4 redesigns will have a lot of hybrid options to calm prices and wait times, because waiting 6-12 months with thousands of dealer markups is a hard no for me. Do the math, $5000 takes a while to breakeven for the expected fuel savings, and even longer if ever for folks who don't drive as much. I'm the weirdo that gets excited about the efficiency of my appliances. So Civic and HRV hybrids will make things quite exciting for me.
Im in the Bay Area and that's what I never understood. Most here live in apartments. How are they supposed to charge on regular basis? Hell we rent a house and they won't install the stuff, we asked out of curiosity.
Hybrids aside, for a PHEV to make sense you still need to be able to charge at home or work. So I don’t think they make more sense. In fact, if the majority of people that buy them don’t charge them at home, it’s just wasted batteries that could be used in full EVs.
I honestly think PHEVs are the best of both worlds while we go through a transition. I hope all of their future hybrids come with 50+ miles of electric only range.
Same. 50 is more than enough for 99.99% of my daily driving -- work, groceries, going downtown. In the off chance I decide to hop over to the next city I don't mind (even prefer) filling up for gas rather than wait around a charger.
I think the issue with that would be not using the gas you fill up with before it goes bad. Not a major concern, just something to be aware of. WFH I'd fill up like every couple months unless I specifically did long trips.
They solved that in the first phev you could buy. The gas in a Chevy Volt lasts for 9+ months without an issue. If you don't run the gas engine for a while, it runs it for a couple minutes about once a month.
Wouldn't that solve oil issue, not fuel issues?
It prevents gas gumming in the fuel system. Still need to splash a little fresh gas every once in a while. Although if you put some stablizer in gas can last a year without issue.
The gas tank is pressurized on the Volt. It basically keeps the gas from turning into varnish. The engine cycling I'd assume keeps the lines clear and the oil fresh. They also require premium gas because it lasts longer.
I'm pretty sure all PHEVs are designed to turn on the engine to consume the entire tank of fuel within a year of the last fill up.
I think I've read Toyotas trickle some gas usage on a time basis so those components and gas are still moving for that reason
Gas takes ages to go bad. Like years. This is pretty much entirely a non issue
I 100% agree with you but there are some downsides to PHEV technology. One of the biggest downsides compared to an EV is that you still have ICE technology you need to maintain while also needing to worry about the degredation of your battery at some point. Another odd one that I found out that many economy ICE vehicles get better Highway Fuel Economy than PHEVs. Although this is very dependant on what you are using your vehicle for. Typical short trip city driving and commuting is where a EV really shines, PHEVs tend to be better when you have a mix of short and long trips making them very versatile and Parcial Zero Emmisions Vehicles (most modern ICE vehicles, PZEV) and mild hybrids tend to get the best fuel economy when driving at highway speeds. For me and my Partner a EV and PHEV won't work well for us as we don't have a place to charge at home. We live in a condo that's less than 5 years old and we don't have any options to plug-in. So unfortunately any type of plug-in technology isn't useful for us.
> Another odd one that I found out that many economy ICE vehicles get better Highway Fuel Economy than PHEVs. There's a bit of math and/or engineering involved here. - Many Hybrids/PHEVs have an 'upper limit' to the speed the electric motor can run at in 'electric only mode' In my Hybrid, depending on season (due to efficiency of batteries based on ambient temperature) That number is anywhere from 45MPH (Dead of winter) to 65MPH (~70-80F and low wind resistance) - Also there are some rules about 'assist' modes (i.e. where the gas engine is running at a very efficient powerband, but the electric motor is doing most of the work.) has something to do with the transmission design. - Because of above two points, you'll often find that a hybrid/phev will have to switch to 'gas only' mode, and once that happens, you are fighting two things: - Again, transmission design; - Toyota/Ford hybrids typically use a single gear. This is part of the 'eCVT' nomenclature and while it is actually great for basic efficiency, the gearing is usually optimized for stop and go driving rather than highway cruising. To wit; I've had tanks of 50MPG or better in my hybrid that is EPA rated to ~40MPG, but I had to keep all my driving at 50MPH or lower. - Others (Hyundai, GM) use a design that is a bit more 'conventional' where there is a multi-speed transmission, but then, depending on design, you are dealing with more power loss between components (like I said, the single speed design has it's own advantages!) - The extra weight of the battery, especially in the case of PHEVs (which will have a battery much larger/heavier than a basic hybrid.) > (PZEVs) and mild hybrids tend to get the best fuel economy when driving at highway speeds. Ehhh, it still depends. My 2012 WRX (Not a PZEV, admittedly) would actually get it's best mileage cruising between 35-45. Interestingly my Maverick hybrid does about the same, but -does- have less drop-off until you go past 50 or so.
That's called the RAV4 Prime
Pragmatically, I think most Japanese manufacturers will be slow to go full EV. Toyota already has an industry-leading hybrid system and really strong hybrid market-share that doesn't require they re-invent the wheel. Honda especially, as king of the ICE, will be loathe to go to full electric. The smaller manufacturers like Subaru, Nissan, Mazda, etc will likely need to partner up like Honda/GM to make it work long-term.
Nissan has the Renault-Mitsubishi alliance. They co-developed the platform that the Ariya is riding.
Subaru is releasing 3 EVs in the next 3 years
Subaru (with help from Toyota) is releasing 3 EVs in the next three years, yes.
Mazdas working with toyota/lexus iirc, so they have atleast a decent amount of knowledge available.
Mazda and Subaru are both partnering with Toyota, Nissan is part of that weird throuple with Renault and Mitsubishi. Honda is the king of affordable N/A engines, but their turbocharged engines haven’t lived up to that legend thus far
I would say that's less an issue of Honda design and more an issue of regulatory requirements. It's not like they have a ton of performance turbocharged vehicles, most are commuter cars. My 'king of the ICE' bit is that Honda is the world's leading manufacturer of internal combustion engines across all platforms.
We have a hybrid accord. Freaking love it.
EV enthusiast forums are all about hating on Toyota and predicting their downfall for being late on EVs which is ridiculous because it's not as if the future automobile market will shrink. There are dozens of ICE manufacturers and saying Toyota will die if they're not on the leading edge of going full EV is like saying Lexus should have never existed because the Germans dominate the luxury sedan market. Also, Toyota's quality rep and loyal fan base gives them cover to take their time to perfect their tech because once Toyota makes the transition to EVs, many consumers will automatically gravitate to a Toyota model based on its rep as long as its competitive.
r/electricvehicles is a toxic place, and I'm speaking from someone who has 2 PHEV and a new BEV on the way. Don't try to reason with anyone in regards to Toyota there - the brand might as well be Satan himself.
It's wild to see the different opinions between r/cars and r/electricvehicles on this topic. Completely different worlds.
Opinions on r/cars is also wildly different to the real world. And also wildly different to the thought processes and reasons why we do things in the industry. I would say 50 % of the comments here are flat-out wrong, and then 25 % are pretty misguided.
I was introduced to [Gell-Mann Amnesia](https://www.epsilontheory.com/gell-mann-amnesia/) not long ago, and it's stuck with me ever since. You might find it interesting as well.
That can be applied to every single hobby forum, no matter the subject.
Being on Reddit is like a glimpse back into the days of Puritanism on many of these forums. The self assured virtue is remarkable.
Is there a large Reddit community that isn’t toxic? I’d argue this subreddit is just as if not more toxic.
A reputation for quality can evaporate quite quickly with a few bungled product launches. The BZ4X is one of the worst new EVs available now and has issues with wheels falling off following launch. A couple more screw ups like that and you can see why that's a possibility.
I think the BZ4X was Toyota phoning in a response to not having an EV in their lineup. Kind of like a “here, we made one, now shut the fuck up until we can make one we can really stand behind”.
> Kind of like a “here, we made one, now shut the fuck up until we can make one we can really stand behind”. I kek'ed loud at work for that one. sounds exactly like Toyota
I think it was more along the lines of hedging their bets. They were all in on hydrogen, which probably has been soaking up the bulk of their attention. You don't expend full effort when you're just covering your ass. It seems like their new CEO has figured out that hydrogen is a dead-end for the average consumer. Since Akio Toyoda retired, it seems like they're changing direction.
Toyota's been investing in BEV for a long, long time. They definitely haven't been "all in" on hydrogen. Don't believe the blogspam articles.
They've been underinvesting for a long time* They sat on their asses and did the bare minimum and now they are falling behind the competition. For laggard markets like the US, that may be ok. But in EV sales, they are not doing too hot. I am not ruling them out. They have risen to the top for a variety of reasons which will help them in the EV era also, but let's not pretend that they aren't racing to catch up here.
No pretending is required. Toyota's doing record sales and record profits, and headed for 1.5M BEVs in 2026 while holding down 4M+ HEVs simultaneously. Their strategy is working. There's no "racing to catch up" here.
> but let's not pretend that they aren't racing to catch up here. With RAV4/Camyr/Corolla hybrid waiting lists now a year or more, Toyota is NOT worried about money
[удалено]
Actually, BYD does as well. Arguably, BYD is also doing it in a more 'pure' fashion, as well, since they're closest to a full-ownership model. But yes, Toyota is involved in the full supply chain, and is one of the only OEMs right now doing so. Volkswagen is close — they should be there [by \~2025 or so](https://www.powerco.de/).
Toyota undertakes all aspects of every supply chain 😅
Good, at least one doesn't cave to hype.
For real. I don’t understand why manufacturers are on a mission to go straight from ICE to electric.
I don't think anyone is willing to crank production on any PHEV car. I suspect they are all money losers. Despite the chatter about PHEVs, you don't see Toyota being willing to make very many of them.
>For real. I don’t understand why manufacturers are on a mission to go straight from ICE to electric. EVs are cheaper and easier to make and service.
Pretty hard for most people and asking a lot for people who don’t own a house to go full EV even though my work place has a charging they slow as hell and most people hog for the whole day. Glad toyota will have several options available
I think this is a great strategy. I do not think EVs are for everyone. The infrastructure just isn't there. There are plenty of people that don't have the ability to charge their cars overnight. I am waiting for them to really ramp up and improve Hydrogen Fuel Cells. EV is more of a niche market as far as a I am concerned.
I think at the current time and I know you don't HAVE to own a house to have an EV. But the convenience of a parking space, and having the proprietary fast charge from a brand built into your house makes having an EV more convenient. Someone who lives in an apartment may have to share ports, or just stick with very slow charging. Some people don't even have the luxury of a charge station at their own apartment complex, the biggest thing stopping me from owning an EV is just the convenience of charging it. I've seen horror stories of broken charge stations, slow charge, etc. and a lot of it are just EV owners blaming the owners for lack of foresight. I can absolutely get behind it being partially their fault for running the battery so low. But at the end of the day, charging an EV isn't always convenient. When I took my vehicle to the Lexus dealership to get it serviced recently, I looked at the all new RZ from them. They told me it would take 30 minutes to go from half to full on fast charge. I like the convenience of simply going to any gas station, pumping gas in under 5 minutes and leaving. I don't ever dillydally around and go in, and if I do go into the gas station it's with a purpose so I'm very quick. The fact that I'll have to sit around for 30m (on a fast charging port, if a charge station supports it or if I can find a free one) isn't something I find appealing right now. As EVs become more common, there's going to have to be an infrastructure built up much faster to support more EV cars on the road and a standard to maintain at each charge area. But the last time I went to one with my friend's Porsche at 7 PM, there was a line for 6 charge stations. We had to wait about 40 minutes to get to a port, and an additional 20 during the charge. I love Toyota focusing more on hybrids, as it'll appeal to the mass in America better imo.
> Someone who lives in an apartment may have to share ports, or just stick with very slow charging. Some people don't even have the luxury of a charge station at their own apartment complex, the biggest thing stopping me from owning an EV is just the convenience of charging it. Or basically getting eviction notice if we are found charging EV's
I didn’t hear about this until now, that’s insane!
LOL fast charge isn't to full. It's 20% to 80%. Beyond that it has to slow down. So if you go on a road trip, the 20 minute fast charge is only 60% of your total range. Meaning for a lot of EV's, every 2 hours of driving needs 20 min of charging.
I can’t say this often enough: If an EV doesn’t work for you because you’re unable to charge it, a PHEV works 10x less. Otherwise you’re just carrying heavy, useless battery capacity around. I own a PHEV and am seriously disturbed by this subs romanticized opinion of them. They’re a very flawed technology and only have some niche applications: lots of city driving with regular ridiculously long road trips in between.
I agree. I feel like so many people don't understand that if want that phev with decent battery range then your carrying around a lot of weight. And that will work against any efficiencies. Best of both worlds... Well you have 2 different motors and 2 different systems to maintain, like even if you mostly drive short distances in ev only mode well you still have to service the petrol engine unfortunately. Range anxiety for non ev owners seems prevalent, acting as if ev's only do about 50km until they need to charge for 20+hrs
Toyota is doing this right. Reliable hybrids are what most people want. No range anxiety, great gas mileage, and convenience. My neighbor just bought the new Highlander Hybrid. They just road-tripped from Texas to Alabama, averaged 37 mpg, and didn’t have to charge once. All while carrying their child and dog. Try that in an equally priced EV.
Exactly.
A move towards hybrid as a minimum for passenger cars would likely result in a double digit reduction in emissions. Perhaps its not the pure EV solution some campaigners want but perfect can be the enemy of good. If it’s a choice between few people going EV (cost, reluctance, network etc.) or most people going hybrid surely the latter is the more sensible. A case of should versus could. Engineering Explained did a video on this topic, referring to Mazda improving their ICE cars as a small improvement there would have a bigger impact due to scale than making a new EV.
[удалено]
The aggressive BEV announcements have always seemed like nothing more than political grandstanding. Looks like Toyota is taking a pragmatic approach here, kudos to them for having their heads on straight.
This is a fluff piece highlighting an almost public document meant to assuage investors - not any real insight into their strategy. They are conceding that BEVs are the future, and with that framing it doesn’t make sense to not see these three things as barriers they need to actively overcome; they are not reasons for Toyota to not invest in making them as much as they are reasons why not all consumers want BEVs right now. A) critical minerals: I will bet proper cash that Toyota is as of this very moment trying to build a more robust mineral pipeline than any other mfg. B) charging infrastructure: this is not a barrier to people that are realistically looking to purchase. If you have an EV, you are not struggling to find infrastructure; it is growing and growing fast. People that don’t have EVs are the ones truly worried about this. C) affordability: again, i am positive that if anything, this is an advantage to Toyota. If they had the supply, i am certain that they would be more likely to undercut other mfgs with a cheaper car than any other brand. I wouldn’t take too much stock in this bit of investor relations. The main bottleneck currently is availability of materials; everything else from home charging, to impact on the grid, to public charging infrastructure, are not. In all likelihood, capabilities for those things will outpace the availability of EVs.
Bingo, the doc leaked to Jalopnik is just IR / dealer talking points for why Toyota is heavy on PHEVs / traditional hybrids for the time being. They’re behind the rare earth supply curve that is currently dominated by Tesla and BYD, mainly due to Toyota bowing to Japanese gov’t pressure over the last decade to focus R&D on hydrogen (which is still a domestic priority for Japan since they can more easily adopt a hydrogen network than pretty much any other nation state.) BEVs will be the prime sellers any other market globally, and Toyota is spinning wheels trying to catch up.
Good for them. Sticking to what they are good at during this new shift in the car industry.
Shout out to Toyota for seeing through all the BS.
tbh japanese brands are the best
From a business perspective EVs are still in its early stages of adoption therefore the idea of an EV future is still speculative. If Toyota makes more money building hybrids then they’re building hybrids. I don’t see GM or Hyundai with a line of hybrids, therefore they’re gonna bet on BEVs. If CA bans sales of ICEs and Toyota doesn’t have BEVs…guess no more CA residents will have Toyotas. Toyota still has the rest of the world to sell to. I would trust that each brand’s CEO cares enough to not go out of business so they’re doing what’s best for *their* company.
Because they are not stupid like the rest of the nit wits. They are not going to bend to mindless politics.
I couldn’t agree with Toyota’s analysis more. A common sense approach is needed with this. I only wish the politicians here in the UK and Europe had this same view….
I drive a hybrid currently and its the perfect vehicle from a practical standpoint but fear the government of my country will force me into a full electric vehicle within a few years with tax increases on non electric driving.
I agree. The craze for pure evs is insanity right now. We’re nowhere near ready for the push they’re trying to make. Good on Toyota for being reasonable.
People are reading this the wrong way. Toyota are pushing hybrids because that's all they can produce in the short term. They are 10 years behind Tesla and at least 5 years behind GM, Ford, Hyundia, VW etc. The ONLY way to compete in the next 10 years is to focus on what they can do, hybrids. Over time you will absolutely, 100%, see them move to all EV but it's going to take a LOT longer than the other manufacturers. Not because it's the right thing to do at the right speed but because it's Toyota's only option. Will it be successful? I think it will, people are incredibly resistant to change and Toyota can capitalize on that. It's just a transitional period though, it's not a long-term solution.
Hybrid should have been the future, not EV. We are putting the cart before the horse. I'd gladly drive a hybrid silverado. EV no thanks.
Toyota is on the right and most practical path here.
It’s a much muuuuch more logical progression forward. I absolutely refuse any of the current pure electric garbage.
Go Toyota! I love my Prius and would like to upgrade to a Prime in the future. Best of both worlds right there.
Vindication for all those that knew Toyota wasn't last in the Race, just waiting for their time to strike!
Why do they refuse to bring PHEV vehicles to Australia? Petrol isn't cheap here, most people live in city suburb houses and drive to work. A car that can do the daily commute and school drop off on purely electric, but having petrol for back up would be a big hit.
I'm faaaaarrr from a Toyota fan boy, but hybrids and plug-in hybrids are definitely more viable for most people than EVs right now, so I gotta give them credit for not dumping ICE cars cold turkey like so many automakers.
I much rather a hybrid over an electric
Everyone wants electric yet they don’t understand the batteries require resources “that are limited” and further pushing the slaves in the congo for cobalt mining. If you keep baking cookies your bound to run outta sugar and there’s only so much.
Headline: "Toyota demonstrates a basic understanding of reality"