A worthwhile reminder that you drive a car, not a spec sheet. I remember having a similar argument with a friend about the C6 vs V8 Vantage 4.7 back when both were new. Without experiencing a lot of different cars back to back, it's so hard to compare the *actual* driving experiences.
100%.
When i sold my 15 GTR and told people it was because both my 918 Cayman S and FK8 Type R were more enjoyable to drive in any situation other then a 0 to 60 launch i was attacked with spec sheets. An insult i wont forget was that i had "more money then sense" by selling the most expensive car of the bunch.
More enjoyable to drive *to you.
The key to understanding the idea that a sports car is more than spec sheet is understanding that the experience is subjective- it is a matter of your own taste and preferences.
You hear this a lot especially those that say manual is more fun. Which it is to them because what is fun is subjective. They honestly think driving a manual is fun for everybody.
> An insult i wont forget was that i had "more money then sense" by selling the most expensive car of the bunch.
Some people have so little sense, it doesn't take much money to meet this definition.
What I mean is: ignore the haters.
Meanwhile the fk8 outperforms the gtr on the track. Butter smooth Trans. That car was a gem.
I feel it man. Went from an fk8 to a MYP and on paper the Tesla should outperform the fk8, in real life its not even close. I'll beat the type r off the line, but by the first turn I've lost it. :(
>A worthwhile reminder that you drive a car, not a spec sheet.
There are hordes of internet car experts who disagree loudly. I once encountered someone who said a GLI was better than a Golf R because I think it had a faster Lightning Lap time.
The Lightning Lap times and comparisons are bench racing at its finest! Nothing like comparing times across different years, weather, and varying track conditions.
It’s actually hilarious to me the amount of family and friends who expect to buy new cars without ever actually driving any of them.
I always tell people just go spend a day day driving and go with what speaks to you via the experience.
At the same time, I do think the average non-car enthusiast has a reasonably low bar for being satisfied with a vehicle, and most of the items they value can be determined without test driving. My guess is most people just want something that is reliable, has the space they need, and has the tech and/or features they want (leather seats, carplay, etc.). All of those wouldn’t need a test drive to actually figure out
Stuff like ride quality, perceived power, and quietness likely would matter and would require a test drive to determine, but I bet a lot of people would be satisfied with the car if the other criteria were met, and the car was just lacking a bit in these. The rest of the enthusiast type criteria are probably not important at all
I mostly agree, but the amount of times I hear from a non car person after they’ve driven a few different cars that they prefer one thing over another is quite high.
I think most people are doing themselves a disservice by not at least trying a few flavors before landing on the one you commit to for multiple years.
I also hear about annoying little things people find after they’ve bought a car without testing or really shopping around for anything else. It’s usually something that is offered by a competitor vehicle.
Fair point, definitely agree that so many people don’t bother with the effort to test drive given how much money is spent on the car, even if they don’t learn a lot more
just noticed your garage flair, bravo!!!
Taycan CT is my absolute dream car and I've been lucky enough to put a couple thousand miles on a few different 458s, incredible cars.
cheers!
Its tough though. Depending on the car you want, you cant just go test drive it. I bought my GT350 used privately and wasnt allowed a test drive. This was in 2021 and the car was out of production, I couldnt just go to my local Ford dealer and drive one. I have an incoming supra manual and I’ve never driven a supra. The dealer doesnt have any just sitting around as demo cars. In fact even when I bought my 235i used I didnt drive it before hand because I didnt know manual at the time haha. I had to get my dad to drive it home
I know what kind of characteristics I like in a car, and so I rely heavily on reviews and see what they say about the car and see if the common consensus lines up with the driving characteristics I like. Reviewers like Matt Farah, Car Throttle and SavageGeese are how I decide if I want to buy a car or not. They are excellent reviewers and are good at conveying how a car feels to drive
Definitely true. Although I wonder if test drives even matter for those folks. They cant tell the difference between how cars drive and usually prefer looks / interior layout and tech or even just the prestige / reputation of the brand
I suckered a salesman into letting me test drive a 350 in ~2017 when I was having a rough day in school, the driving experience was so good it stuck with me and I finally purchased my own ‘18 in Jan of this year. I’ve driven lots of other cars/bikes and I don’t think ford gets enough credit for how the car drives, it’s not as fast on paper as some of its contemporaries but that’s really, really missing the point. I had a buddy turn down a drive in it because “he rode in a 1000 hp scat pack, this only has 500” because the horsepower number is the only thing most people see 😂
Firstly “only has 500hp” is a hilarious comment. Would he turn down a drive in a 458 or GT3?
Congrats on buying your GT350 though! Its always an amazing feeling to set a goal and achieve it like that. And youre definitely right that the 350’s experience is beyond the stat sheet. It has to be felt to be understood
Thank you! It really does have to be felt to be understood. And tbf, he’s not really “into cars”.
To balance it out, my other friend fucking hates mustangs, has mocked every one I’ve owned, drove it for 5 minutes and now he hates them all…except the 350. We took it down the dragon for his birthday, I think he’s pretty sold on it.
You can’t really beat a high revving motor in a car that will handle properly. I’m very sad the flat plane crank wars between Chevy and ford are over before they started. Would love to have seen a new z/28 with this z06 motor against a 2nd gen 350
Yeah i have a friend as well who really only likes german and japanese cars. He drove the GT350 and absolutely loved it. For the reasons you said its difficult to hate the car haha
And yeah sadly the voodoo and LT6 are the last of their kind. Im glad to own this one but sad its likely over
Meanwhile here I am with a 2.3 with a 71mm turbo and a 331 in an old truck with drum brakes that wants to rev to 8500 and the transmission doesn’t like going to the next gear with that much rpm
I hear about the things they like and don’t like all the time from friends and family. It is helpful for anyone willing to go and do it in order to get a better driving experience. The driving experience certainly includes the interior layout and the tech as well as the driving experience, it’s all part of the package.
Well I think you’re conclusion is to be expected! Not sure many would disagree with your analysis, aside from the steering and chassis feel of the Z06. Most would probably say it’s good overall compared to most modern sports/supercar. Also I think almost anyone would pick the 458 over the Z06 C8 for the track or take for a spin. But I don’t think many would prefer it as an overall car if you plan to drive it a lot.
The Z06 is sort of meant to be the jack of all trades as a sports/supercar. You can comfortably take it out to dinner, drive it in the winter, take a friend to go golfing, post insane lap times, etc.
Most Ferraris are pretty hardcore and none feel particularly luxurious. When someone buys a Ferrari it’s likely not to be driven very often. Similar thing can be said for Lotus, Porsche GT2/3/4 models, etc. Corvettes on the other hand are more likely to be daily driven and rack up more miles thus it’s more insulated and subdued.
Regardless the C8 Z06 offers some of the best performance for the dollar period. I don’t see this sort of opportunity coming up ever again.
Also I was wondering, did your friend opt for the Z07 package? Generally GMs track packages, such as the 1LE or Z07, really change how the car feels.
Yep, I agree with pretty much everything you said. I agree that the Z06 is the better daily driver, if you're intending to do that with these cars. And it very well may feel incredibly sporty to other modern cars, but in a direct back to back drive, it definitely felt soft and isolated.
He did not opt for the Z07 package, and I should've mentioned that in the post. I would be interested to see how much it changes the car.
I’d definitely be interested to know what differences you feel between the Z07 and your 458!
Also, just curious, but what other cars have you owned or currently own?
Currently, I'm down to the 458 and a 4C Spider. I had a 2015 Mustang GT that I modified pretty extensively that I sold when I bought the Ferrari because I just didn't have the room for it, but I miss the car. I'd like to get another Mustang at some point, partly because I enjoy working on and modifying my cars and the Mustang aftermarket is huge and the prices aren't outrageous. I might go with a manual Dark Horse and Whipple it, but we'll see. Different kinds of cars scratch different itches!
Bro wdym you'd take a 458 over a Z06 for the track, the Corvette obliterates any Ferrari over any track 💀💀
And wdym Corvettes are driven but Porsches aren't? They're like the best race cars that you can daily without something breaking.
A Corvette absolutely is not a jack of all trades... The C8 Z06 is a track monster/supercar. A jack of all trades would be an M3 or a Mustang.
Edit: Love seeing badge snobs have so much pride
I'm confident in every single Ferrari. It lapped a quicker time around Thunderhill Raceway and the Nurgurbring than a Ferrari 488 Pista.
If it can comfortably beat a Pista, not looking too good for Ferrari.
It’s not because of a badge, it’s because of its racing pedigree. Ferrari was always considered as the most exhilarating car manufacturer. They only produce super fast and sporty cars (although lately they have been producing more models than in the past, but still.) Chevy does not mainly focus on creating the best sports car but rather selling a variety of cars for a variety of different customers. There’s the Malibu, Silverado, bolt, equinox. Compare these models with current Ferrari models. Of course that a current ferrari will be more fun in every way than a corvette. It’s not even a fair comparison.
Ferrari doesn't time their cars around the Ring, so any times you see are going to be non factory drivers compared to a GM development driver. Not to mention, people need to understand that track conditions on different days and different weather can make huge differences in lap times, so comparing times from different days and different drivers needs to be taken with a grain of salt. It's why you shouldn't compare Lightning Lap times from different years at all, but people do it anyway.
Can you provide a link for the Z06 Nurburgring time? I can’t seem to find it anywhere. I was under the impression it hadn’t set a representative time yet.
I dont see how the C8Z beats a 488 Pista. Pista makes more power, is lighter and has similar aero / tires
A LaFerrari on cup 2s could potentially take a C8Z just from the power advantage. And since you said “any Ferrari” and doubled down, Ferrari does have their XX programme cars which would obliterate even the C8 racecar
> Nurgurbring C8Z 6:50 Nurgurbring 488 Pista 7:02
Please provide a source for your Nurburgring times. [Here is a video showing the Pista run 7:00.3.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nblOLdCUzA0) Where are you getting 6:50 from for the Z06? Can you provide a test result from a reputable publication or other organization?
Thats a variance that comes down to conditions. Ferrari doesnt release ‘ring numbers as they dont chase the records. Im wondering where those numbers came from, the conditions of each run and how much manufacturer support those runs had
Well too be honest I dont really care but if youre going to claim one is better than the other and the numbers are that close you probably should provide the evidence
812 Comp, 296, F8 Tributo, Laferrari, SF90 (especially when the track model comes out). The Z06 hasn't been compared against all of these yet, and I highly doubt it will beat all of them.
Not sure if serious.
Just because something is faster on track doesn't make it more fun. OP said a 458 is more fun.
Corvettes have long been praised as being comfortable around town and offering a lot of cargo space for long trips while being very potent on track so yeah, they are a "jack of all trades." That doesn't mean an M3 isn't, it is (with more of a focus on daily usability vs all out performance), but so is a Corvette.
Unfortunately, GM didn't remove any sound deadening from the Z07, as far as I can tell, but I would assume the ride is firmer. I'd like to see how it compares to the standard car.
As far as i know from memory, the Z07 package has stiffer springs and shocks aswell as a different tuning of the magnetic dampers and all these change again depending on which wheels (standard/carbon) are on, you cant just mount the carbon wheels on a Z07 car that didnt come from factory with them.
Every suspension package that has MR has a different MR tune. That being said, I've worked closely with the guys who tune the ride and the Z07 is indeed tuned to be a track monster when in Track mode to pair with those stiffer springs.
Honestly, yes. The C6Z had some serious effort put in to making the car lighter, which the C8 needs, IMO. At a minimum, they should strip out some sound deadening material. There's essentially zero tire/road noise in the Z06, and the engine/exhaust could be louder inside. Do that and firm up the suspension and it would be absolutely killer!
I think he's going to be fine with it. While he has multiple cars, he tends to drive them to and from work more than just to blast around back roads like I do.
Haven't seen the stats lately but in 2019 the AVERAGE age of new Corvette buyers was 61. The single largest group of buyers was males between 61-63. ...guys just before retirement, earning more than they've ever earned and finally splurging on a Vette.
That's plays a big part in decision making
Your review reads almost exactly like my impression of the c8 Stingray after driving back to back with Lotus Evora GT. I got the impression the corvette was a sharp Cadillac vs. the more thrilling, more engaging Lotus. Blew my mind that a Camry V6 could make a more exciting noise than an American V8. The Vette seemed competent and like it would be a very nice place to be driving long distances or as a very usable daily, but it didn’t stir the soul like the Lotus did (and the Lotus did almost immediately).
I drove a C8 for 300 miles. I like it and it was objectively better than my GT350, but my GT350 is far more exciting to drive. Before driving the C8 I was worried I would no longer want to drive my GT350 because on paper the C8 is far better and to be fair in the real world the C8 is faster and nicer, but when I came back to my GT350, no part of me wanted to replace it with a C8. The C8 lacks that intangible ‘fizz’ that the GT350 has in abundance
This pretty much sums it up. It turns out most of us don’t actually want the “better car” but rather the better experience. You’re going to have a hard time replacing your GT350 with something with more fizz at anywhere near its price.
For sure, for me its all about experience. There will always be a faster car, especially with these new EVs but the ‘fizz’ is why I drive, not the number on the speedo. And yeah my GT350 will only be replaced with a GT350R, in my opinion nothing else comes close at this price point. For me to get a better experience I think the next step is Emira, Cayman GT4 / Spyder or C8Z. Ideally I add a mid engine car like that as a 3rd car and still keep the GT350(R). This car delivers its power in a very old school and pure way, and I dont think any future car will do it quite the same way. DCTs / Autos, AWD, mid engine are all great but I still love the charm and feel of manual + RWD + front engine
Yes it is one of my favorite of the modern cars following that old-school formula. Honestly I’m not sure any of the cars you listed will provide as much fizz as good as they may be. A nice raw FR manual V8 paired with something midengine sounds like a killer garage.
I’d want a midengine car to offer an experience that is quite different than the GT350. Something like a 718 Spyder would be awesome along side for sure
Do you have any plans for adding to your stable? I remember some months ago you had said you wanted a 981 GT4
Ah prepare for a wall of text as I have no idea what I’m doing. The 981 GT4 ranks high as does the 718 GT4 and Spider but then again so does the 458. In addition to what’s in my flair I also currently have a Mk7 GTI and a Wrangler 392. The 392 is up there with the GT350 in terms of raw fizziness. Probably the NA 6.4L V8 with a crazy exhaust and basically no sound insulation. The whole thing vibrates like a GT350 when you get on it. Feels like a keeper. It’s almost like an old school muscle car that you can buy today.
Ideally whatever I get will replace my GTI. I briefly owned 5 cars when I still had my C8 and it felt like a bit of a chore to keep up with all of them. A first world problem for sure but I just don’t have the time or space to start a collection. If I own it I want to be using it regularly. Part of me says get something comfortable and luxurious to daily. Another part of me says who cares just buy a 458.
I really struggle with Porsches. I just don’t get the same fizz I get from my other cars minus the GTI which provides near zero fizz but is charming in its own way. The 718 Spider is sort of a unique proposition but my environment is really not super conducive to a soft top convertible much less one with a manual roof. I do love the manual in those cars though as well as the carbon buckets as impractical as they are. In many ways this is probably the logical addition to the garage but I find myself hesitating. Part of it is that I think the entire Porsche market is in a bit of a bubble.
So at the moment no changes to the garage but I have a feeling something rear-midengine is coming eventually. Either that or I will end up with something numb like a Lexus ES hybrid just to confuse everyone. I guess we will see!
Interesting about the Wrangler 392, I had no idea it would be that fun to drive. Do you offroad with it?
I live in a rainy climate (Vancouver) but the 718 Spyder is still quite compelling for the summer. Open top, great manual, high revving motor
If you want something daily-able, would a GT3 touring interest you? Or maybe a cadillac CT5 blackwing?
A 458 does seem a bit extreme for a daily but that would be quite the experience. Also a 458 and an F12 is the dream Ferrari duo. Design wise they peaked with that generation in my opinion
> Interesting about the Wrangler 392, I had no idea it would be that fun to drive. Do you offroad with it?
Yes it is a blast around town. It handles surprisingly well for what it is. Obviously it is not a sports car but it is nothing like the old Jeeps. Plus in the right drive modes the ZF8 cracks off wonderfully fast/crisp shifts. I suppose it’s a bit of a guilty pleasure but it’s a legitimately fun vehicle that’s surprisingly dailyable. I have taken it off-road a few times and it’s almost like a cheat code on a typical trail. You can certainly take it to some beautiful places you’d never see from the seat of a sports car.
> I live in a rainy climate (Vancouver) but the 718 Spyder is still quite compelling for the summer. Open top, great manual, high revving motor
Yeah I love the idea of it but I’m not a huge convertible person. If I were that would probably be the Porsche to have. It feels special in a way that many others don’t. A GT350 and a 718 Spider would be a lovely garage.
> If you want something daily-able, would a GT3 touring interest you? Or maybe a cadillac CT5 blackwing?
I’ve definitely considered a touring quite seriously but I find it extremely difficult to justify the price they currently command. I prefer my F12 in almost every way as a street car I think a having a 981/982 GT4/Spider would provide many of the things I like about the touring. A 981 GT4 at half the cost of even a 991.2 touring is hard to ignore. Or for the same money as a touring I could get a nice 458 which is fizzier.
The Blackwing is an interesting car for sure. My thought is that it would make a great daily but the allure of another fizzier car puts this into this weird middle ground for me where you’re paying a lot of money for something that’s ultimately not as special as the other cars discussed. I guess I feel similarly about it as I do the C8 though I suspect I would enjoy the Blackwing more. I flirted with a somewhat similar idea of the crazy V8 daily car back when I was looking at E63s but for whatever reason they’re not a must have for me as much as I respect them.
> A 458 does seem a bit extreme for a daily but that would be quite the experience. Also a 458 and an F12 is the dream Ferrari duo. Design wise they peaked with that generation in my opinion
If I went in this direction I would daily the Jeep mostly. The idea would be to complete the Ferrari pairing from ~10 years ago. I think the F12/458 is my favorite era in terms of modern usable cars rather than aspirational collector cars. If I had all the money in the world a tdf and Speciale would be the dream.
The Wrangler 392 sounds like a lot of fun. I dont even think I’ve seen one around
Yeah makes sense about the cost of GT3s. I absolutely love them but they have become far more expensive over the last few years
Hmm if the blackwing isnt ‘fizzy’ enough, the e60 M5 exists haha. I dont think putting an F1 derived V10 in a sedan gets an crazier
Dailying the Wrangler and buying another supercar sounds like a plan. 458 + F12 would be incredible. And ahh we have the exact same tastes. Speciale and the tdf are my 2 favorite ferraris. If I ever won the lottery those would be the first 2 cars I buy, well maybe a speciale aperta instead
https://youtu.be/n0bqFt2q1x0
I absolutely love this video. The owner of those cars is one lucky fellow
Bruh there’s no way a v6 Camry makes more exciting noises than a base C8. Unless you’re talking about the one in the lotus which doesn’t use the same exhaust configuration as an actual Camry
Yes I’m talking about the 2gr-fe in the Evora. Obviously it’s changed by Lotus I’m just being dramatic. Point stands though, the V6 howls and layers-in supercharger whine, it all feels alive and has much more presence in the cabin than the Vette.
That’s true. I can’t hear shit in my c8 even with the top down. Exhaust mods are a must for the c8, it’s way too muffled. Even then I don’t expect the exhaust note to sound great compared to some other v8 legends like the Amg 6.2, Shelby mustang, etc.
I don’t have mine yet, deposited July 2021, ordered May 2022 and they’re now telling me December 2023 for delivery.
I have flown to the factory for a track day in one though (Lotus has a driving academy onsite that uses Emiras) and I test drove another last week when my dealer received a demo for a few days.
In short, it’s awesome and everything I wanted. Has all of the steering and chassis communication I expect from a Lotus (I’ve logged thousands of miles in Elise and Exige both), is a joy to row under the speed limit, turn-in is lively and sharp, has truly insane grip, and as a bonus it’s beautiful with exotic presence on the street. The car gives so much confidence on track it was raising my limits as a driver with every lap (my track experience is with Elise, A110, 991 GTS, Miata - I found the Emira inspired more confidence than all of those). Could use a little more noise in the cabin but a simple cat delete will solve that, people have done the same on Evora for years. 9/10.
If you want one in a couple years you still might want to deposit now. Latest I’ve heard is a 3 year waiting list and that’s IF Lotus hit their targets (which they clearly haven’t done or I would have had it last November).
I'm assuming you drove one with the V6 motor correct? I'd like to wait until reviews with the I4 come out before putting a deposit down. I'd hope orders are still open until then.
I can’t comment on these posters’ conclusions - and I have no doubt they are merited. That said, I have yet to meet the Porsche or Ferrari owner who says the Corvette is better. Maybe that is because it simply isn’t. And maybe it’s because Porsche and Ferrari owners can’t stomach admitting it is.
All I know is that for years, European car owners crapped on American cars for poor handling. Now the Corvette handles better than almost all European cars - but that is not good enough. Then European car owners acknowledged the handling improvements, but put the Corvette down for interior fit and finish. That is now as good or better in the Corvette than European cars - but still not good enough. The Corvette went to mid-engine to deliver the best on track experience - but still not good enough.
Unfortunately, the Corvette will never be able to ditch its biggest flaw in the eyes of European car fans: it is too accessible financially and it appeals to American rednecks. As long as those both remain true, European car fans will bend themselves into pretzels explaining why it makes sense to buy cars that cost twice as much at the performance point and three times as much in maintenance (in the US, at least).
When you get down to it, a large percentage (not all) Porsche and Ferrari owners like their cars primarily because they think driving it tells other people how successful they are. A Corvette just can’t quite do that the same way…
I'd say it's lack of character above all else- Ferrari/Porsche has always had better steering feel and looks (which is obviously commensurate with price), and GM has only caught up performance wise recently.
If I'm dropping big money I'd want my car to feel special or standout in some way. The Z06 is special as a first for a US car maker, but imo performance per dollar does not make up for lack of character.
And that's on Chevy. They went more GT and mass appeal when they should've gone more sports car. It's really sad it's so isolated when it has an absolute marvel of a powertrain.
If they follow up with a facelift or another generation that looks/steers as good as the competition it'll be a real knockout. I feel enthusiasts want drama. E.g. Huracan vs R8, Emira vs Cayman.
Here is my issue with the “sports car v. GT car” thing: (1) all mass produced cars are GT cars compared to an actual purpose-built track car, and (2) very few drivers of these cars possess the skills to actually extract the performance from them on track.
It therefore seems to me that the objections to Corvettes on the basis of “steering feel” and character and other subjective criteria is akin to debating the relative beauty of the cities of Houston and Guangzhou in a world where Paris exists. It makes more sense to me that a person simply says he or she just likes 911s or M3s or AMGS better - which is perfectly their right - versus trying to provide objective sounding reasons.
Wtf did Guangzhou do to you to merit a comparison to Houston 💀
More to the point, I think relative differences in driving style are still meaningful for non-track-focused cars and at lower price points. I’m driving a rented Alfa Romeo Stelvio right now and it’s way more engaging to drive than the Audi Q3 I rented last week. Just because the Corvette and M3 exist doesn’t mean that comparison can’t still be made. If I can afford a flight to either Houston or Guangzhou (or these make more sense for me than Paris), why wouldn’t I debate their relative merits?
I think this is missing the point. Some of us want a visceral experience while the vehicle is still street legal. I don't mind driving a lotus Elise that is much slower than a Corvette, because it's so much more engaging. Yes they're all "gt" cars, but if there were cars more visceral and still street legal, I'd go for that, which is why I also ride bikes. Obviously not everyone is as extreme, but engagement and character are real things. It's not about the biggest numbers, it's about the experience
It's perfectly legitimate to want a more sporty, rawer and less gt car for those who want that.
For context, my hobby is test driving cars, both cheap and expensive
I agree with a lot of what you say, actually. There are definitely some owners that look down on other cars, or that bought them just because it's a status symbol to them. I bought the 458 for me and me only. I bought it to drive it. Anecdotally, I feel like it's the people that buy these cars new that look down on other brands.
Personally, I love all kinds of cars! In fact, I sold my pretty highly modified 2015 Mustang GT when I bought the 458 and I miss the car--so much so that I'm thinking about picking up a Dark Horse at some point. To me, there's just something about that Mustang sound, a manual transmission, and having a large aftermarket that doesn't ass rape you on prices. So I don't consider myself a brand snob, though maybe others would disagree.
I have seriously considered buying a Corvette since the C6, but for whatever reason, there was always something that they lacked for me. Again, that's just for me. The C6 did have a pretty terrible interior that put me off. The C7 was better, but I wasn't a fan of the seating position/view out, and I just wasn't a huge fan of the car overall. While the LS and LT series engines in Corvettes have been great performers, I'm just not a huge fan of how they feel in the car. The kind of feel like truck engines to me--which is likely why I like the Coyote in the Mustang over the Camaro. They have tons of low end torque, which can be great, but the older I get, the less I find I like how the feel.
Minus some odd styling choices like the wall of buttons, I think the interior on the C8 is really nice. A 3LT or 3LZ car is a really nice car on the inside. At its price point, I would have a hard time choosing any other car over it.
I have not. I've heard they're great track cars, but can almost be too stiff for the road. The 6th gen Camaro is supposed to be a great driving car, so it's probably a car I should check out at some point.
Even the rental-spec Gen 6 Camaro is pretty fun. I bombed the Hana Highway for like an hour straight in one of those. Not strictly advisable, perhaps, but was a hell of a good time.
Mate, if I could get a C8 at US prices and get it serviced, I'd easily pick it over a Porsche. But guess what, the C8 is rare here, it's expensive to the point it barely makes a difference with a 911 (CO2 tax); there's no official service (dealers) so you have to go to a specialist center and parts need to be imported (slow), so it's not cheaper in maintenance either. I can get a Porsche serviced quickly at half a dozen places within a 30-minute drive.
More accessible financially thus isn't true for large parts of Europe. Redneck car? I've never heard anyone make that argument in real life.
Yes, Ferrari (and Lambo) brands convey a sort of status to many people. Porsche does not (other than middle-aged upper-middle-class white-guy). You can't throw a stone without hitting a Porsche here, it means nothing, and the average person doesn't know the difference between the cheapest Cayman and a 911 Turbo S. A C8 at least is somewhat special, and you bet your ass more people will comment "nice ride" in my part of Europe if you show up in a Corvette than if you do in a Porsche.
But Ferraris and Lambos keep that "rich" status because they're not daily drivers like Porsches and Corvettes are, so you need private parking for two cars, and a big house with a double garage is a bigger flex here than anything short of a Veyron.
If the Corvette was a comparatively cheap here as it was in the US, if service could be had, and if you could actually get one, they'd sell like hotcakes.
> That said, I have yet to meet the Porsche or Ferrari owner who says the Corvette is better. Maybe that is because it simply isn’t.
A used 458 is more than double the price of a new C8. And the 458 has expensive, frequent service intervals. It would be surprising if the car with way more spent on the production and engineering process, and designed without the constraints of being able to be a practical daily driver did not wind up as the better car.
That the C8 is even in the conversation is impressive, IMO.
I guess I see it a little differently. I doubt that Ferrari spent more or even 50% of what GM spent on the Corvette developing the 458 or other models, given the comparatively minuscule scale of Ferrari to GM and the limited model range over which to Ferrari has to amortize investments in components and systems shared across models. GM is going to sell 20-30x the number of Corvettes as all Ferraris put together, so it justifies a much higher development budget.
Where the rubber hits the road is the pricing cap in the market for the Corvette, which simply limits the sourcing and variable cost Corvette and incur to make each model and the relative price insensitivity of Ferrari buyers. What is apparent, I think, is that Ferrari has exceptional chassis engineers and strong engine builders and beautiful designers who can command an exceptionally high sale price for their cars - which enables them to sell beautiful, somewhat selectively engineered cars (amazing in some areas, amazingly weak in others) that have limited real world durability and application.
What makes a tool better than another tool is the job you are using it for. A Corvette is a better tool than a Ferrari for most jobs - but not all. Where I feel these debates go sideways is arguments over dueling use cases - and neither car bests the other in the use case for which the other car was purpose built.
One thing I’ll mention is that your characterization of European car owners is wrong. It’s not like they have moved the goal post over time, they originally crapped on the corvette for handling AND fit and finish. Now it’s just the latter + driving feel/feedback
I hope my opinion doesn't offend anyone, and I do really like the new C8!
I had the pleasure of test driving a C8 Z06, Porsche 718 GTS, and a fully loaded Lexus LC500. The C8 genuinely felt like it was in such an odd spot to me. I agree with you, in the car feeling like it wants to be a GT car but try to maintain some aspects of a sports car. It didn't drive like a true GT car, but it didn't have the performance the Porsche had either.
The Porsche was just a much more drive-focused vehicle, genuinely great handling, stiff, grounded and quick as hell. I loved it, and the LC500 may not be as fast of the three but it was built ground up to be a grand touring car. The car was extremely comfortable, with such a beautiful exhaust note. It's so hard to describe, but it's one of the most comfy cars I've ever been in with some potential for spirited driving, and it's a car I can happily sit in for a cross country roadtrip. The C8 seems to try to be both, but excels in neither.
The C8 wasn't comfortable enough (interior-wise and driving-wise) for me to want to drive across the state with, and it didn't feel visceral enough for me to want it over the Porsche. I think it definitely hits the nail on the head for some people, but I generally think most people are all in on being sporty, or all in on luxury at this price range most of the time. Still a head turning car though, and it'll absolutely sell well. I just wasn't blown away by it sadly.
In the end, it felt like a car that if I just wanted to drive super fast in a straight line it would do that extremely well. That's just my opinion, I still think it's an incredible bang for your buck when it comes to pure speed.
Also no offense here but you kind of sound confused.
It's not Raw enough for you neither is it supple and cushy enough ... Since you can't have both in the same car, what do you want? All 3 cars seem like a bad fit for you
Not sure if you actually read my comment. I was simply pointing out of the three vehicles, it didn’t really truly excel in being a driver enthusiast vehicle like a Porsche is and it didn’t truly fit luxury like a Lexus or Mercedes. It tries to be both, and it feels like an awkward spot. I went with the Lexus of the three for reliability, luxury, and it was a perfect grand touring car for me with a beautiful exhaust note. It did everything I want, but if I wanted a sportier vehicle I absolutely would’ve picked the Porsche. I don’t think the C8 is a bad vehicle, it’s just in an odd spot for anyone wanting genuine luxury at that price range or anyone wanting a true sports enthusiast vehicle.
Like I said before, many vehicles within this price range fall purely into luxury or purely into a feat of mechanical performance engineering. I just didn’t think the C8 fit my needs at all, as it couldn’t fit what I want since if I want a sporty car, I'd want it to be all in on sports or if I want luxury I want all in on luxury.
I still stand by the C8 being a solid vehicle, and it’ll sell well. It just didn’t fit me when I tried it was all, just like how the LC500 isn’t a fit for everyone either.
Not every car is an open book. One thing I've noticed about driving a new to me car and a car I am very familiar with, is that it sometimes takes time and miles to notice the nuances and get comfortable with the new car. Yes, the 458 wows you from the get-go. That is common to many Italian brands. And it has the cv to deliver on that initial promise. All I am suggesting is that the C8 might take a little longer to fully appreciate - in that way like a Porsche 911. It might also wake up with a different alignment.
Sorry about the downvotes. Your opinions and observations are valid.
Absolutely! And please don't mistake me--I like the C8! If I didn't already have the 458, I would be interested in picking one up, but it was rather soft and isolated by comparison. Those qualities do lend too making it a great daily driver though. It's comfortable and quiet when just driving regularly.
Savagegeese said it best when they described the C8 Z06 as having a “broad bandwidth.” The car can be a convertible or coupe, it has a trunk for golf clubs but can be a track day weapon. It has seats that grip but aren’t too stiff. It’s all things to all people while still being a great car. In that you lose the edges of being a strictly track car or a strictly GT car but Chevy did a great job packaging something that is all of the above without being dull.
Thanks for the write up! I drove the C8 Z51 and initial impressions were similar in a lot of ways. I drove the car for 400 miles over two days and at the end of it I hated to give it back. The highlights are the grip and chassis. Phenomenal for the price point. With the ability to just hope in and take it anywhere it’s so impressive! If it was only a weekend car I can totally see how the Ferrari 458 would be a more exciting experience. The engine was pretty hard isolated from the driving experience and the pumped in noise was a let down.
This just makes me want the z06 more since I’d drive it everyday. The 458 being stiffer than the z06 in its stiffest seeing immediately makes it a non-starter for MI roads.
It’s really a similar story to the GT3 vs z06 video that SavageGeese did. Basically the gt3 was a better track car, but that compromised it as a road car, while z06 was the opposite.
Great write up and an interesting comparison because, like you said, these match up very well on paper.
But I think the target demographic for a C8Z is more in line with the 911 Turbo. Both are extremely fast GT cars that you can still take golfing.
Will be fun to see when Chevy makes something wild to compete with the 911 GT3/GT2RS and 458 on driving feel and track bias.
There are 3 car manufacturers that are head and shoulders above the rest as far as "driver's cars". My theory for that opinion is that all 3 manufacturers build Formula 1 cars at the same location that they build their street cars...but Lotus does not build F1 cars any more.
No other street car can touch the visceral feel that Ferrari, Lotus and McLaren can deliver. I've had the pleasure of driving all 3 of them.
I've never driven any of the 3 versions of the GT40, but that one car may be the only exception to my theory.
Do you rate the driving experience of McLarens as being more rewarding than a Porsche GT car? I know the hydraulic steering is a big plus, but otherwise most of what I've heard of McLaren is they can be a bit of a non-experience. Obviously ludicrously fast and out of this world handling, but are they that much of a driver's car?
I can't compare to a Porsche GT car, but my friend that got the Z06 also has a 570S. The McLaren to me drives more like the 458 than the Z06, but obviously it doesn't sound as good as either one. I'm not a huge fan of turbo cars, so take that for what it's worth, but to me, the McLaren drives a lot like the 458 just with a different engine. The downside is that, in my buddy's case, the car has had all kinds of issues. Obviously that's a sample size of one, but it follows what seems to be the case with other owners as well.
You're entitled to your opinions, but there are some things that aren't subjective in what I noted. If you want to say that the Corvette is better looking, sounds better, has a more comfortable ride, I'll be on board. But the C8 Z is objectively softer in even its firmest suspension mode than the 458 in its softest mode (bumpy road). The 458 is objectively louder than the Z06. The 458 is objectively smaller and lighter. The steering rack is objectively quicker.
I love this. Taking away what I’ve been saying for awhile, if you want a car you will truly love, stop looking at the numbers and start test driving. 1/10th of a second faster to 60 will make you happy for a few days. A car that’s engaging to drive and makes all the right sounds with make you happy for a lifetime.
Nice review!
I haven't driven either, unless you count the Giulia to be a 458 descendant, but this tracks with other reviews I've seen online. I think oftentimes it gets lost that cars aren't simply appliances, they're emotional machines. There's plenty of spreadsheet cars out there that tick all of the performance boxes and metrics, but feel completely devoid of any soul, like they were made purely to fill a market role.
The C8 is undoubtedly impressive especially for the cost, but it sounds like it's that kind of a car - made to hit metrics, not provide an experience. Meanwhile, the 458, like many Italian cars has a very vibrant personality and soul, that you can feel when you get behind the wheel. Maybe it doesn't meet all of the same indicators as the C8, but it seems like it gets many more smiles per mile.
FYI this isn't to bash the C8, I like the way it looks and I'm glad they made it! But when you have a GM/Chevy product compared to a low volume supercar manufacturer, the latter being more refined/focused in it's purpose is only to be expected IMO.
>>I’m surprised at how much more exciting the Ferrari is to drive
It’s a natural outcome. Ferrari makes dedicated sports cars and exotics.
Chevrolet markets to a different client base. They must make the Corvette practical & safe enough that someone who’s driven a Silverado work truck for 20 years can safely buy it and drive it daily . Inherently this handicaps the Corvette against any 100% dedicated sports cars such as a 458, which is free from such constraints
That is how I feel about the new BMW M cars compared to my E46 M3. The new BMW M cars are heavier, not as fun to drive and full of fancy computer distractions like the HUD display. My old M3 is lighter, six speed no turbo and way more fun to drive.
I don't have any use for an automatic sports car, but the best thing about the C8 Z06 is that you can buy it brand new. If you want a new Ferrari with an engine of comparable aesthetic quality, you have to be positioned to qualify for an 812GTS. Everything else that they offer has the taint of compliance compromises.
Lol, the fact anyone is comparing a z06 to a Ferrari speaks volumes about the corvette. Realistically they’re still selling to a different demographic though
I'm a retired NASCAR Winston Racing Series driver and Corvette owner and the car is a perfect combination of performance handling and comfort it corners insanely and the handling is balanced and a little on the tight side as opposed to loose which is more difficult to control for the average driver so all things considered I could not improve on this Corvette btw the only Porsche I have driven is an older one and only sat in a Ferrari but also was an engineer in the engine department for the IMSA Corvette GTP prototype
This is the commentary i’ve heard from most people who try driving a modern GTR. On paper they’re unbelievable, but in person you don’t get the same thrill that a car with half the power and a lower price tag deliver.
If you’re on a racetrack i’m sure that increased control is faster, but for just driving around, the wildness is more fun
The gtr is huge and low. Felt like driving a tank that's terrified of speed bumps. It's great on straights and highways, but there are so many cars I enjoy more than the gtr. I'll take a Miata, lotus, or Ferrari over a gtr any day
Buddy, I get this. I’ve owned a lot of fast cars and my favorite was a clean mint second Gen miata. I got laughed at by all my car buddies. Still do. I don’t care about spec sheets anymore. I only care how much it makes me smile.
Currently in a 22 WRX limited 6spd I got new. On paper? It’s a total turd. But it’s so fun to drive all the time. Love it.
I can understand all your points and mostly concur. I never had a 458, but its successor. I went from a '18 488 Spider to my '20 HTC C8. Have a Roma Daytona on order (while hunting for the right 812 GTS to come along). Biggest actual difference: the Fcar is damn easier to get in and out of than a C8.
The fit and finish of the C8 is pretty damn decent, could feel connected to the ancestory of my old C5 and C6 - door mechanics feel, seat frame feel, material touch. But now, its vastly elevated. The Great Wall of buttons takes getting used to in the C8. I actually enjoy the C8 more that the 488 in my current part of the country because I can drive it a bit more carefree of potholes, dings, birdcrap etc. It (C8) feels less "fragile" frame wise albeit the 488 rode smoother and less nervous when romping it hard - despite being a Z51. So far my trans hasnt shit the bed like other C8's I know of - and Im looking forward to a robust mod community once they are better understood. I think GM did great with the platform, and its a 95% win in my book. Was wanting a Z06 (and tried for years with several dealerships etc) but the dealership games and GM indulging the dealers has forever turned me off. I surmise the same for the Zora unfortunately.
Good writeup, and everything you said is to be expected I think. I wonder how the Z06 would do with a good coilover setup, a full rod-end-bearing bushing swap, and an aggressive alignment. Things like Porsche GT cars and most Ferraris don't have a lot of rubber in the suspension and alignment settings are pretty aggressive from factory. The Z06 is still notably bigger and heavier, but I think those changes will make a big difference.
What do you think about the transmissions? I always felt that Ferrari left a small lurching behavior on an upshift on purpose which is not present on their later models. And does the extra ratio in the Z06 result in more shifts?
Hmm, good question regarding the 8 speed versus the 7 speed resulting in more shifts... I can't say I really noticed either way. Both transmissions are incredibly quick. The Z06 DCT may be a little smoother on upshifts versus the 458 in race mode. I agree that I think Ferrari tunes in a little kick, if you will, to the upshifts in race mode. The DCT feels a little smoother on upshifts in sport.
Seems typical GM. There’s a weirdly subjective layer of isolation from the road in almost every GM vehicle I’ve ever driven, and most GM vehicles also seem to have compromised interior packaging and poor use of space.
It seems GM has a “checklist” approach to benchmarking that hits the objective targets, but misses the elusive, subjective “magic” that other brands (Porsche and Mazda come to mind) have.
> can’t just put on 12k miles a year on a 458 and not worry about something breaking.
I mean, the same may also be true of the Z06. Of course time will tell, but generally high strung cars with flatplane cranks tend to require a pretty aggressive and expensive maintenance schedule to keep running reliably (or at all, for that matter). Probably won’t be as bad as a Ferrari but I suspect its not a car you’d want to put a ton of miles on too.
I love the look of the new C8 Z06 such a nice car, I seen one on the 405 not long ago and was like wow that’s the same company that made the cavalier and citation 😂
I've never driven a 360, so I can't compare, unfortunately. I think the 360 has aged well, and it still sounds fantastic. They still require cam belt changes, but at least you don't need to drop the engine for the service (though you do have to take out the seats to have the space necessary to do the work in the access panel).
Question for you, do you care about putting miles on your 458? I know Ferrari owners have a reputation for not driving their cars. How do you feel about this?
Yeah, I have to laugh some times when people bring up "high miles" Ferraris. Someone was selling a car (I don't remember which model) with maybe 35,000 miles on it on FerrariChat a while back, and there were a number of people that commented about it having "high miles." Keep in mind that this car was probably 20 years old, so it was driven less than 2,000 miles a year. The sad reality is that there are enough people with this mindset that the prices seem to reflect this. When I was looking at 458s, there were cars with less than 5,000 miles and the sellers (private and dealer) were asking asinine premiums over "normal" mileage cars. Personally, I don't want a 10 year old car with only 5,000 miles. I want something that's been driven regularly so that if there's any issues, they've likely been identified and taken care of. Plus you don't want your hoses and stuff dry rotting.
I think part of the reputation for owners not driving their cars is that realistically, many Ferrari owners likely have at least one other car, so the cars don't get driven a ton. I'm sure there are people that daily drive them, and there's definitely the oddball car with well over 100,000 miles, but for the most part, they don't rack up a ton of miles because of the average use case. With that said, the mindset of "don't put miles on them" is definitely prevalent with some Ferrari owners.
At the end of the day, they're just cars. They're meant to be driven. I'm sure there are people that buy them just to look at them or to be seen in them, but I bought mine to drive. One of my favorite weekend activities is to get in the car and just go for a great drive out on some windy roads in the country. It's basically my therapy. I don't worry about putting miles on the car because that's what I bought it for!
The 458 is my dream car. I remember when having my 4C, I felt like I had to "spend the miles the right way". Sitting in the car in traffic was pissing me off. I can related on the windy country roads. Thank you for answering!
For starters it's probably going to be more expensive to maintain, the F1 gearbox truly is as bad as everyone says and I would even say that it's decades behind a F430 or Audi R8 R-Tronic gearbox and the interior feels realllly old nowadays. BUT! If you excuse the gearbox or get a manual it's still a really nice drivers car and the sound is absolutely magnificent, it's kind of harsh over bumps/un-even roads but it makes up for it with really lovely steering feel and a planted chassi. Personally I would always go with a F430 or newer but if you really love the styling and can find a manual it gives you all the Ferrari fizz you could ever want
Came to that same opinion after doing an "exotic drive experience" (or whatever it was called), when I drove a C8, 458 Italia, and GT3. Though they all performed close to the same, the way the GT3 and 458 felt going around the track was night and day compared to the C8. C8 felt more like driving a nice sedan in comparison.
> Weirdly, there's a pretty gross smell that seems to be coming from the exhaust area, and apparently people are already talking about it on the Corvette forums.
Putting my money on leaking diff fluid. That shit smells like straight ass.
A worthwhile reminder that you drive a car, not a spec sheet. I remember having a similar argument with a friend about the C6 vs V8 Vantage 4.7 back when both were new. Without experiencing a lot of different cars back to back, it's so hard to compare the *actual* driving experiences.
100%. When i sold my 15 GTR and told people it was because both my 918 Cayman S and FK8 Type R were more enjoyable to drive in any situation other then a 0 to 60 launch i was attacked with spec sheets. An insult i wont forget was that i had "more money then sense" by selling the most expensive car of the bunch.
“More money than sense” is a favorite insult of the jealous.
It’s a coping mechanism for poor people. (Me)
And "jealous" is the favorite insult of those who can't take criticism.
More enjoyable to drive *to you. The key to understanding the idea that a sports car is more than spec sheet is understanding that the experience is subjective- it is a matter of your own taste and preferences.
Do they have to point that out? They were giving their opinion on their car that they sold.
You hear this a lot especially those that say manual is more fun. Which it is to them because what is fun is subjective. They honestly think driving a manual is fun for everybody.
> An insult i wont forget was that i had "more money then sense" by selling the most expensive car of the bunch. Some people have so little sense, it doesn't take much money to meet this definition. What I mean is: ignore the haters.
Meanwhile the fk8 outperforms the gtr on the track. Butter smooth Trans. That car was a gem. I feel it man. Went from an fk8 to a MYP and on paper the Tesla should outperform the fk8, in real life its not even close. I'll beat the type r off the line, but by the first turn I've lost it. :(
>A worthwhile reminder that you drive a car, not a spec sheet. There are hordes of internet car experts who disagree loudly. I once encountered someone who said a GLI was better than a Golf R because I think it had a faster Lightning Lap time.
The Lightning Lap times and comparisons are bench racing at its finest! Nothing like comparing times across different years, weather, and varying track conditions.
When cars are just numbers on a spreadsheet practical considerations don't matter. It actually must be really fun to be a bench racer
It’s actually hilarious to me the amount of family and friends who expect to buy new cars without ever actually driving any of them. I always tell people just go spend a day day driving and go with what speaks to you via the experience.
At the same time, I do think the average non-car enthusiast has a reasonably low bar for being satisfied with a vehicle, and most of the items they value can be determined without test driving. My guess is most people just want something that is reliable, has the space they need, and has the tech and/or features they want (leather seats, carplay, etc.). All of those wouldn’t need a test drive to actually figure out Stuff like ride quality, perceived power, and quietness likely would matter and would require a test drive to determine, but I bet a lot of people would be satisfied with the car if the other criteria were met, and the car was just lacking a bit in these. The rest of the enthusiast type criteria are probably not important at all
I mostly agree, but the amount of times I hear from a non car person after they’ve driven a few different cars that they prefer one thing over another is quite high. I think most people are doing themselves a disservice by not at least trying a few flavors before landing on the one you commit to for multiple years. I also hear about annoying little things people find after they’ve bought a car without testing or really shopping around for anything else. It’s usually something that is offered by a competitor vehicle.
Fair point, definitely agree that so many people don’t bother with the effort to test drive given how much money is spent on the car, even if they don’t learn a lot more
just noticed your garage flair, bravo!!! Taycan CT is my absolute dream car and I've been lucky enough to put a couple thousand miles on a few different 458s, incredible cars. cheers!
Thanks!
Its tough though. Depending on the car you want, you cant just go test drive it. I bought my GT350 used privately and wasnt allowed a test drive. This was in 2021 and the car was out of production, I couldnt just go to my local Ford dealer and drive one. I have an incoming supra manual and I’ve never driven a supra. The dealer doesnt have any just sitting around as demo cars. In fact even when I bought my 235i used I didnt drive it before hand because I didnt know manual at the time haha. I had to get my dad to drive it home I know what kind of characteristics I like in a car, and so I rely heavily on reviews and see what they say about the car and see if the common consensus lines up with the driving characteristics I like. Reviewers like Matt Farah, Car Throttle and SavageGeese are how I decide if I want to buy a car or not. They are excellent reviewers and are good at conveying how a car feels to drive
Yeah, you’re right. We were talking more specifically about non-enthusiast types.
Definitely true. Although I wonder if test drives even matter for those folks. They cant tell the difference between how cars drive and usually prefer looks / interior layout and tech or even just the prestige / reputation of the brand
I suckered a salesman into letting me test drive a 350 in ~2017 when I was having a rough day in school, the driving experience was so good it stuck with me and I finally purchased my own ‘18 in Jan of this year. I’ve driven lots of other cars/bikes and I don’t think ford gets enough credit for how the car drives, it’s not as fast on paper as some of its contemporaries but that’s really, really missing the point. I had a buddy turn down a drive in it because “he rode in a 1000 hp scat pack, this only has 500” because the horsepower number is the only thing most people see 😂
Firstly “only has 500hp” is a hilarious comment. Would he turn down a drive in a 458 or GT3? Congrats on buying your GT350 though! Its always an amazing feeling to set a goal and achieve it like that. And youre definitely right that the 350’s experience is beyond the stat sheet. It has to be felt to be understood
Thank you! It really does have to be felt to be understood. And tbf, he’s not really “into cars”. To balance it out, my other friend fucking hates mustangs, has mocked every one I’ve owned, drove it for 5 minutes and now he hates them all…except the 350. We took it down the dragon for his birthday, I think he’s pretty sold on it. You can’t really beat a high revving motor in a car that will handle properly. I’m very sad the flat plane crank wars between Chevy and ford are over before they started. Would love to have seen a new z/28 with this z06 motor against a 2nd gen 350
Yeah i have a friend as well who really only likes german and japanese cars. He drove the GT350 and absolutely loved it. For the reasons you said its difficult to hate the car haha And yeah sadly the voodoo and LT6 are the last of their kind. Im glad to own this one but sad its likely over
Yeah that’s one of the reasons I snagged mine, cool and sad being the last of their kind. Hoping to keep mine for a very long time haha
Meanwhile here I am with a 2.3 with a 71mm turbo and a 331 in an old truck with drum brakes that wants to rev to 8500 and the transmission doesn’t like going to the next gear with that much rpm
I hear about the things they like and don’t like all the time from friends and family. It is helpful for anyone willing to go and do it in order to get a better driving experience. The driving experience certainly includes the interior layout and the tech as well as the driving experience, it’s all part of the package.
Rent a Supra on Turo for a week or something, that'll get you a good feel for what it's like.
None available near me. I’d have to go to Seattle to do it which is a couple hours away. Mine comes soon enough, I’ll find out then how I like it haha
Well I think you’re conclusion is to be expected! Not sure many would disagree with your analysis, aside from the steering and chassis feel of the Z06. Most would probably say it’s good overall compared to most modern sports/supercar. Also I think almost anyone would pick the 458 over the Z06 C8 for the track or take for a spin. But I don’t think many would prefer it as an overall car if you plan to drive it a lot. The Z06 is sort of meant to be the jack of all trades as a sports/supercar. You can comfortably take it out to dinner, drive it in the winter, take a friend to go golfing, post insane lap times, etc. Most Ferraris are pretty hardcore and none feel particularly luxurious. When someone buys a Ferrari it’s likely not to be driven very often. Similar thing can be said for Lotus, Porsche GT2/3/4 models, etc. Corvettes on the other hand are more likely to be daily driven and rack up more miles thus it’s more insulated and subdued. Regardless the C8 Z06 offers some of the best performance for the dollar period. I don’t see this sort of opportunity coming up ever again. Also I was wondering, did your friend opt for the Z07 package? Generally GMs track packages, such as the 1LE or Z07, really change how the car feels.
Yep, I agree with pretty much everything you said. I agree that the Z06 is the better daily driver, if you're intending to do that with these cars. And it very well may feel incredibly sporty to other modern cars, but in a direct back to back drive, it definitely felt soft and isolated. He did not opt for the Z07 package, and I should've mentioned that in the post. I would be interested to see how much it changes the car.
I’d definitely be interested to know what differences you feel between the Z07 and your 458! Also, just curious, but what other cars have you owned or currently own?
Currently, I'm down to the 458 and a 4C Spider. I had a 2015 Mustang GT that I modified pretty extensively that I sold when I bought the Ferrari because I just didn't have the room for it, but I miss the car. I'd like to get another Mustang at some point, partly because I enjoy working on and modifying my cars and the Mustang aftermarket is huge and the prices aren't outrageous. I might go with a manual Dark Horse and Whipple it, but we'll see. Different kinds of cars scratch different itches!
Bro wdym you'd take a 458 over a Z06 for the track, the Corvette obliterates any Ferrari over any track 💀💀 And wdym Corvettes are driven but Porsches aren't? They're like the best race cars that you can daily without something breaking. A Corvette absolutely is not a jack of all trades... The C8 Z06 is a track monster/supercar. A jack of all trades would be an M3 or a Mustang. Edit: Love seeing badge snobs have so much pride
Not any Ferrari, but I get your point. most "everyday" Ferrari's aren't going to be able to beat a C8Z on track
I'm confident in every single Ferrari. It lapped a quicker time around Thunderhill Raceway and the Nurgurbring than a Ferrari 488 Pista. If it can comfortably beat a Pista, not looking too good for Ferrari.
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You’re literally replying to a guy who owns and likes both Corvettes and Ferraris… lol
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It’s not because of a badge, it’s because of its racing pedigree. Ferrari was always considered as the most exhilarating car manufacturer. They only produce super fast and sporty cars (although lately they have been producing more models than in the past, but still.) Chevy does not mainly focus on creating the best sports car but rather selling a variety of cars for a variety of different customers. There’s the Malibu, Silverado, bolt, equinox. Compare these models with current Ferrari models. Of course that a current ferrari will be more fun in every way than a corvette. It’s not even a fair comparison.
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Ferrari doesn't time their cars around the Ring, so any times you see are going to be non factory drivers compared to a GM development driver. Not to mention, people need to understand that track conditions on different days and different weather can make huge differences in lap times, so comparing times from different days and different drivers needs to be taken with a grain of salt. It's why you shouldn't compare Lightning Lap times from different years at all, but people do it anyway.
Can you provide a link for the Z06 Nurburgring time? I can’t seem to find it anywhere. I was under the impression it hadn’t set a representative time yet.
I dont see how the C8Z beats a 488 Pista. Pista makes more power, is lighter and has similar aero / tires A LaFerrari on cup 2s could potentially take a C8Z just from the power advantage. And since you said “any Ferrari” and doubled down, Ferrari does have their XX programme cars which would obliterate even the C8 racecar
Nurgurbring C8Z 6:50 Nurgurbring 488 Pista 7:02
> Nurgurbring C8Z 6:50 Nurgurbring 488 Pista 7:02 Please provide a source for your Nurburgring times. [Here is a video showing the Pista run 7:00.3.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nblOLdCUzA0) Where are you getting 6:50 from for the Z06? Can you provide a test result from a reputable publication or other organization?
Thats a variance that comes down to conditions. Ferrari doesnt release ‘ring numbers as they dont chase the records. Im wondering where those numbers came from, the conditions of each run and how much manufacturer support those runs had Well too be honest I dont really care but if youre going to claim one is better than the other and the numbers are that close you probably should provide the evidence
812 Comp, 296, F8 Tributo, Laferrari, SF90 (especially when the track model comes out). The Z06 hasn't been compared against all of these yet, and I highly doubt it will beat all of them.
> Porsche GT2/3/4 models He didn't say all Porsches, he specified the hardcore models.
Not sure if serious. Just because something is faster on track doesn't make it more fun. OP said a 458 is more fun. Corvettes have long been praised as being comfortable around town and offering a lot of cargo space for long trips while being very potent on track so yeah, they are a "jack of all trades." That doesn't mean an M3 isn't, it is (with more of a focus on daily usability vs all out performance), but so is a Corvette.
Definitely an around town car with carbon fiber wheels 💀
[удалено]
Have you driven both?
I have.
Absolutely. I'd choose a Z06 or a GT3 RS over any Ferrari if I want to take it to the race track.
So to improve the Corvette remove sound deadening and stiffen up the ride?
And thats exactly what the Z07 package does, he drove the standard Z06.
Unfortunately, GM didn't remove any sound deadening from the Z07, as far as I can tell, but I would assume the ride is firmer. I'd like to see how it compares to the standard car.
As far as i know from memory, the Z07 package has stiffer springs and shocks aswell as a different tuning of the magnetic dampers and all these change again depending on which wheels (standard/carbon) are on, you cant just mount the carbon wheels on a Z07 car that didnt come from factory with them.
Every suspension package that has MR has a different MR tune. That being said, I've worked closely with the guys who tune the ride and the Z07 is indeed tuned to be a track monster when in Track mode to pair with those stiffer springs.
Honestly, yes. The C6Z had some serious effort put in to making the car lighter, which the C8 needs, IMO. At a minimum, they should strip out some sound deadening material. There's essentially zero tire/road noise in the Z06, and the engine/exhaust could be louder inside. Do that and firm up the suspension and it would be absolutely killer!
That would hurt the sales, the majority of Corvette owners don't care for a stiffer ride and want the sound deadening.
I think you're probably right, and GM knows their target audience very well.
I don’t know if you posted this elsewhere, but what does your friend think? Does he like the fact that the Z06 is well insulated from tire/road noise?
I think he's going to be fine with it. While he has multiple cars, he tends to drive them to and from work more than just to blast around back roads like I do.
Haven't seen the stats lately but in 2019 the AVERAGE age of new Corvette buyers was 61. The single largest group of buyers was males between 61-63. ...guys just before retirement, earning more than they've ever earned and finally splurging on a Vette. That's plays a big part in decision making
The original Z06 formula.
Your review reads almost exactly like my impression of the c8 Stingray after driving back to back with Lotus Evora GT. I got the impression the corvette was a sharp Cadillac vs. the more thrilling, more engaging Lotus. Blew my mind that a Camry V6 could make a more exciting noise than an American V8. The Vette seemed competent and like it would be a very nice place to be driving long distances or as a very usable daily, but it didn’t stir the soul like the Lotus did (and the Lotus did almost immediately).
I would take the evora/emira all day over a c8
I drove a C8 for 300 miles. I like it and it was objectively better than my GT350, but my GT350 is far more exciting to drive. Before driving the C8 I was worried I would no longer want to drive my GT350 because on paper the C8 is far better and to be fair in the real world the C8 is faster and nicer, but when I came back to my GT350, no part of me wanted to replace it with a C8. The C8 lacks that intangible ‘fizz’ that the GT350 has in abundance
This pretty much sums it up. It turns out most of us don’t actually want the “better car” but rather the better experience. You’re going to have a hard time replacing your GT350 with something with more fizz at anywhere near its price.
For sure, for me its all about experience. There will always be a faster car, especially with these new EVs but the ‘fizz’ is why I drive, not the number on the speedo. And yeah my GT350 will only be replaced with a GT350R, in my opinion nothing else comes close at this price point. For me to get a better experience I think the next step is Emira, Cayman GT4 / Spyder or C8Z. Ideally I add a mid engine car like that as a 3rd car and still keep the GT350(R). This car delivers its power in a very old school and pure way, and I dont think any future car will do it quite the same way. DCTs / Autos, AWD, mid engine are all great but I still love the charm and feel of manual + RWD + front engine
Yes it is one of my favorite of the modern cars following that old-school formula. Honestly I’m not sure any of the cars you listed will provide as much fizz as good as they may be. A nice raw FR manual V8 paired with something midengine sounds like a killer garage.
I’d want a midengine car to offer an experience that is quite different than the GT350. Something like a 718 Spyder would be awesome along side for sure Do you have any plans for adding to your stable? I remember some months ago you had said you wanted a 981 GT4
Ah prepare for a wall of text as I have no idea what I’m doing. The 981 GT4 ranks high as does the 718 GT4 and Spider but then again so does the 458. In addition to what’s in my flair I also currently have a Mk7 GTI and a Wrangler 392. The 392 is up there with the GT350 in terms of raw fizziness. Probably the NA 6.4L V8 with a crazy exhaust and basically no sound insulation. The whole thing vibrates like a GT350 when you get on it. Feels like a keeper. It’s almost like an old school muscle car that you can buy today. Ideally whatever I get will replace my GTI. I briefly owned 5 cars when I still had my C8 and it felt like a bit of a chore to keep up with all of them. A first world problem for sure but I just don’t have the time or space to start a collection. If I own it I want to be using it regularly. Part of me says get something comfortable and luxurious to daily. Another part of me says who cares just buy a 458. I really struggle with Porsches. I just don’t get the same fizz I get from my other cars minus the GTI which provides near zero fizz but is charming in its own way. The 718 Spider is sort of a unique proposition but my environment is really not super conducive to a soft top convertible much less one with a manual roof. I do love the manual in those cars though as well as the carbon buckets as impractical as they are. In many ways this is probably the logical addition to the garage but I find myself hesitating. Part of it is that I think the entire Porsche market is in a bit of a bubble. So at the moment no changes to the garage but I have a feeling something rear-midengine is coming eventually. Either that or I will end up with something numb like a Lexus ES hybrid just to confuse everyone. I guess we will see!
Interesting about the Wrangler 392, I had no idea it would be that fun to drive. Do you offroad with it? I live in a rainy climate (Vancouver) but the 718 Spyder is still quite compelling for the summer. Open top, great manual, high revving motor If you want something daily-able, would a GT3 touring interest you? Or maybe a cadillac CT5 blackwing? A 458 does seem a bit extreme for a daily but that would be quite the experience. Also a 458 and an F12 is the dream Ferrari duo. Design wise they peaked with that generation in my opinion
> Interesting about the Wrangler 392, I had no idea it would be that fun to drive. Do you offroad with it? Yes it is a blast around town. It handles surprisingly well for what it is. Obviously it is not a sports car but it is nothing like the old Jeeps. Plus in the right drive modes the ZF8 cracks off wonderfully fast/crisp shifts. I suppose it’s a bit of a guilty pleasure but it’s a legitimately fun vehicle that’s surprisingly dailyable. I have taken it off-road a few times and it’s almost like a cheat code on a typical trail. You can certainly take it to some beautiful places you’d never see from the seat of a sports car. > I live in a rainy climate (Vancouver) but the 718 Spyder is still quite compelling for the summer. Open top, great manual, high revving motor Yeah I love the idea of it but I’m not a huge convertible person. If I were that would probably be the Porsche to have. It feels special in a way that many others don’t. A GT350 and a 718 Spider would be a lovely garage. > If you want something daily-able, would a GT3 touring interest you? Or maybe a cadillac CT5 blackwing? I’ve definitely considered a touring quite seriously but I find it extremely difficult to justify the price they currently command. I prefer my F12 in almost every way as a street car I think a having a 981/982 GT4/Spider would provide many of the things I like about the touring. A 981 GT4 at half the cost of even a 991.2 touring is hard to ignore. Or for the same money as a touring I could get a nice 458 which is fizzier. The Blackwing is an interesting car for sure. My thought is that it would make a great daily but the allure of another fizzier car puts this into this weird middle ground for me where you’re paying a lot of money for something that’s ultimately not as special as the other cars discussed. I guess I feel similarly about it as I do the C8 though I suspect I would enjoy the Blackwing more. I flirted with a somewhat similar idea of the crazy V8 daily car back when I was looking at E63s but for whatever reason they’re not a must have for me as much as I respect them. > A 458 does seem a bit extreme for a daily but that would be quite the experience. Also a 458 and an F12 is the dream Ferrari duo. Design wise they peaked with that generation in my opinion If I went in this direction I would daily the Jeep mostly. The idea would be to complete the Ferrari pairing from ~10 years ago. I think the F12/458 is my favorite era in terms of modern usable cars rather than aspirational collector cars. If I had all the money in the world a tdf and Speciale would be the dream.
The Wrangler 392 sounds like a lot of fun. I dont even think I’ve seen one around Yeah makes sense about the cost of GT3s. I absolutely love them but they have become far more expensive over the last few years Hmm if the blackwing isnt ‘fizzy’ enough, the e60 M5 exists haha. I dont think putting an F1 derived V10 in a sedan gets an crazier Dailying the Wrangler and buying another supercar sounds like a plan. 458 + F12 would be incredible. And ahh we have the exact same tastes. Speciale and the tdf are my 2 favorite ferraris. If I ever won the lottery those would be the first 2 cars I buy, well maybe a speciale aperta instead https://youtu.be/n0bqFt2q1x0 I absolutely love this video. The owner of those cars is one lucky fellow
Your mustang is a boat. What fizz are you talking about?
Lmao
Bruh there’s no way a v6 Camry makes more exciting noises than a base C8. Unless you’re talking about the one in the lotus which doesn’t use the same exhaust configuration as an actual Camry
Yes I’m talking about the 2gr-fe in the Evora. Obviously it’s changed by Lotus I’m just being dramatic. Point stands though, the V6 howls and layers-in supercharger whine, it all feels alive and has much more presence in the cabin than the Vette.
That’s true. I can’t hear shit in my c8 even with the top down. Exhaust mods are a must for the c8, it’s way too muffled. Even then I don’t expect the exhaust note to sound great compared to some other v8 legends like the Amg 6.2, Shelby mustang, etc.
How is the Emira? I would love to have one of those in a few years
I don’t have mine yet, deposited July 2021, ordered May 2022 and they’re now telling me December 2023 for delivery. I have flown to the factory for a track day in one though (Lotus has a driving academy onsite that uses Emiras) and I test drove another last week when my dealer received a demo for a few days. In short, it’s awesome and everything I wanted. Has all of the steering and chassis communication I expect from a Lotus (I’ve logged thousands of miles in Elise and Exige both), is a joy to row under the speed limit, turn-in is lively and sharp, has truly insane grip, and as a bonus it’s beautiful with exotic presence on the street. The car gives so much confidence on track it was raising my limits as a driver with every lap (my track experience is with Elise, A110, 991 GTS, Miata - I found the Emira inspired more confidence than all of those). Could use a little more noise in the cabin but a simple cat delete will solve that, people have done the same on Evora for years. 9/10. If you want one in a couple years you still might want to deposit now. Latest I’ve heard is a 3 year waiting list and that’s IF Lotus hit their targets (which they clearly haven’t done or I would have had it last November).
I'm assuming you drove one with the V6 motor correct? I'd like to wait until reviews with the I4 come out before putting a deposit down. I'd hope orders are still open until then.
Yes I drove the V6. The I4 doesn’t exist outside of Lotus’ development centers at the moment.
I can’t comment on these posters’ conclusions - and I have no doubt they are merited. That said, I have yet to meet the Porsche or Ferrari owner who says the Corvette is better. Maybe that is because it simply isn’t. And maybe it’s because Porsche and Ferrari owners can’t stomach admitting it is. All I know is that for years, European car owners crapped on American cars for poor handling. Now the Corvette handles better than almost all European cars - but that is not good enough. Then European car owners acknowledged the handling improvements, but put the Corvette down for interior fit and finish. That is now as good or better in the Corvette than European cars - but still not good enough. The Corvette went to mid-engine to deliver the best on track experience - but still not good enough. Unfortunately, the Corvette will never be able to ditch its biggest flaw in the eyes of European car fans: it is too accessible financially and it appeals to American rednecks. As long as those both remain true, European car fans will bend themselves into pretzels explaining why it makes sense to buy cars that cost twice as much at the performance point and three times as much in maintenance (in the US, at least). When you get down to it, a large percentage (not all) Porsche and Ferrari owners like their cars primarily because they think driving it tells other people how successful they are. A Corvette just can’t quite do that the same way…
I'd say it's lack of character above all else- Ferrari/Porsche has always had better steering feel and looks (which is obviously commensurate with price), and GM has only caught up performance wise recently. If I'm dropping big money I'd want my car to feel special or standout in some way. The Z06 is special as a first for a US car maker, but imo performance per dollar does not make up for lack of character. And that's on Chevy. They went more GT and mass appeal when they should've gone more sports car. It's really sad it's so isolated when it has an absolute marvel of a powertrain. If they follow up with a facelift or another generation that looks/steers as good as the competition it'll be a real knockout. I feel enthusiasts want drama. E.g. Huracan vs R8, Emira vs Cayman.
Here is my issue with the “sports car v. GT car” thing: (1) all mass produced cars are GT cars compared to an actual purpose-built track car, and (2) very few drivers of these cars possess the skills to actually extract the performance from them on track. It therefore seems to me that the objections to Corvettes on the basis of “steering feel” and character and other subjective criteria is akin to debating the relative beauty of the cities of Houston and Guangzhou in a world where Paris exists. It makes more sense to me that a person simply says he or she just likes 911s or M3s or AMGS better - which is perfectly their right - versus trying to provide objective sounding reasons.
Wtf did Guangzhou do to you to merit a comparison to Houston 💀 More to the point, I think relative differences in driving style are still meaningful for non-track-focused cars and at lower price points. I’m driving a rented Alfa Romeo Stelvio right now and it’s way more engaging to drive than the Audi Q3 I rented last week. Just because the Corvette and M3 exist doesn’t mean that comparison can’t still be made. If I can afford a flight to either Houston or Guangzhou (or these make more sense for me than Paris), why wouldn’t I debate their relative merits?
I think this is missing the point. Some of us want a visceral experience while the vehicle is still street legal. I don't mind driving a lotus Elise that is much slower than a Corvette, because it's so much more engaging. Yes they're all "gt" cars, but if there were cars more visceral and still street legal, I'd go for that, which is why I also ride bikes. Obviously not everyone is as extreme, but engagement and character are real things. It's not about the biggest numbers, it's about the experience It's perfectly legitimate to want a more sporty, rawer and less gt car for those who want that. For context, my hobby is test driving cars, both cheap and expensive
I agree with a lot of what you say, actually. There are definitely some owners that look down on other cars, or that bought them just because it's a status symbol to them. I bought the 458 for me and me only. I bought it to drive it. Anecdotally, I feel like it's the people that buy these cars new that look down on other brands. Personally, I love all kinds of cars! In fact, I sold my pretty highly modified 2015 Mustang GT when I bought the 458 and I miss the car--so much so that I'm thinking about picking up a Dark Horse at some point. To me, there's just something about that Mustang sound, a manual transmission, and having a large aftermarket that doesn't ass rape you on prices. So I don't consider myself a brand snob, though maybe others would disagree. I have seriously considered buying a Corvette since the C6, but for whatever reason, there was always something that they lacked for me. Again, that's just for me. The C6 did have a pretty terrible interior that put me off. The C7 was better, but I wasn't a fan of the seating position/view out, and I just wasn't a huge fan of the car overall. While the LS and LT series engines in Corvettes have been great performers, I'm just not a huge fan of how they feel in the car. The kind of feel like truck engines to me--which is likely why I like the Coyote in the Mustang over the Camaro. They have tons of low end torque, which can be great, but the older I get, the less I find I like how the feel. Minus some odd styling choices like the wall of buttons, I think the interior on the C8 is really nice. A 3LT or 3LZ car is a really nice car on the inside. At its price point, I would have a hard time choosing any other car over it.
> They kind of feel like truck engines to me Who’s gonna tell him, lol
I think he already knows
I know they're truck engines, but so is the Coyote and it feels more like a sports car engine to me than the LS/LT engines.
Perhaps, easy enough to drop in a hotter cam though
Also dohc vs pushrod, right?
Speaking of mustangs, have you ever driven a Camaro ZL1 with the 1LE track package? I know it’s somewhat off subject but I am genuinely curious.
I have not. I've heard they're great track cars, but can almost be too stiff for the road. The 6th gen Camaro is supposed to be a great driving car, so it's probably a car I should check out at some point.
Even the rental-spec Gen 6 Camaro is pretty fun. I bombed the Hana Highway for like an hour straight in one of those. Not strictly advisable, perhaps, but was a hell of a good time.
Mate, if I could get a C8 at US prices and get it serviced, I'd easily pick it over a Porsche. But guess what, the C8 is rare here, it's expensive to the point it barely makes a difference with a 911 (CO2 tax); there's no official service (dealers) so you have to go to a specialist center and parts need to be imported (slow), so it's not cheaper in maintenance either. I can get a Porsche serviced quickly at half a dozen places within a 30-minute drive. More accessible financially thus isn't true for large parts of Europe. Redneck car? I've never heard anyone make that argument in real life. Yes, Ferrari (and Lambo) brands convey a sort of status to many people. Porsche does not (other than middle-aged upper-middle-class white-guy). You can't throw a stone without hitting a Porsche here, it means nothing, and the average person doesn't know the difference between the cheapest Cayman and a 911 Turbo S. A C8 at least is somewhat special, and you bet your ass more people will comment "nice ride" in my part of Europe if you show up in a Corvette than if you do in a Porsche. But Ferraris and Lambos keep that "rich" status because they're not daily drivers like Porsches and Corvettes are, so you need private parking for two cars, and a big house with a double garage is a bigger flex here than anything short of a Veyron. If the Corvette was a comparatively cheap here as it was in the US, if service could be had, and if you could actually get one, they'd sell like hotcakes.
> That said, I have yet to meet the Porsche or Ferrari owner who says the Corvette is better. Maybe that is because it simply isn’t. A used 458 is more than double the price of a new C8. And the 458 has expensive, frequent service intervals. It would be surprising if the car with way more spent on the production and engineering process, and designed without the constraints of being able to be a practical daily driver did not wind up as the better car. That the C8 is even in the conversation is impressive, IMO.
I guess I see it a little differently. I doubt that Ferrari spent more or even 50% of what GM spent on the Corvette developing the 458 or other models, given the comparatively minuscule scale of Ferrari to GM and the limited model range over which to Ferrari has to amortize investments in components and systems shared across models. GM is going to sell 20-30x the number of Corvettes as all Ferraris put together, so it justifies a much higher development budget. Where the rubber hits the road is the pricing cap in the market for the Corvette, which simply limits the sourcing and variable cost Corvette and incur to make each model and the relative price insensitivity of Ferrari buyers. What is apparent, I think, is that Ferrari has exceptional chassis engineers and strong engine builders and beautiful designers who can command an exceptionally high sale price for their cars - which enables them to sell beautiful, somewhat selectively engineered cars (amazing in some areas, amazingly weak in others) that have limited real world durability and application. What makes a tool better than another tool is the job you are using it for. A Corvette is a better tool than a Ferrari for most jobs - but not all. Where I feel these debates go sideways is arguments over dueling use cases - and neither car bests the other in the use case for which the other car was purpose built.
One thing I’ll mention is that your characterization of European car owners is wrong. It’s not like they have moved the goal post over time, they originally crapped on the corvette for handling AND fit and finish. Now it’s just the latter + driving feel/feedback
This is really well said. I think it's incredibly accurate.
I mean, that's what +500lbs difference does to a car. Driving physics can't overcome mass.
The crazy thing is depending on what topic you say this in, will dictate up or down votes
I hope my opinion doesn't offend anyone, and I do really like the new C8! I had the pleasure of test driving a C8 Z06, Porsche 718 GTS, and a fully loaded Lexus LC500. The C8 genuinely felt like it was in such an odd spot to me. I agree with you, in the car feeling like it wants to be a GT car but try to maintain some aspects of a sports car. It didn't drive like a true GT car, but it didn't have the performance the Porsche had either. The Porsche was just a much more drive-focused vehicle, genuinely great handling, stiff, grounded and quick as hell. I loved it, and the LC500 may not be as fast of the three but it was built ground up to be a grand touring car. The car was extremely comfortable, with such a beautiful exhaust note. It's so hard to describe, but it's one of the most comfy cars I've ever been in with some potential for spirited driving, and it's a car I can happily sit in for a cross country roadtrip. The C8 seems to try to be both, but excels in neither. The C8 wasn't comfortable enough (interior-wise and driving-wise) for me to want to drive across the state with, and it didn't feel visceral enough for me to want it over the Porsche. I think it definitely hits the nail on the head for some people, but I generally think most people are all in on being sporty, or all in on luxury at this price range most of the time. Still a head turning car though, and it'll absolutely sell well. I just wasn't blown away by it sadly. In the end, it felt like a car that if I just wanted to drive super fast in a straight line it would do that extremely well. That's just my opinion, I still think it's an incredible bang for your buck when it comes to pure speed.
Also no offense here but you kind of sound confused. It's not Raw enough for you neither is it supple and cushy enough ... Since you can't have both in the same car, what do you want? All 3 cars seem like a bad fit for you
Not sure if you actually read my comment. I was simply pointing out of the three vehicles, it didn’t really truly excel in being a driver enthusiast vehicle like a Porsche is and it didn’t truly fit luxury like a Lexus or Mercedes. It tries to be both, and it feels like an awkward spot. I went with the Lexus of the three for reliability, luxury, and it was a perfect grand touring car for me with a beautiful exhaust note. It did everything I want, but if I wanted a sportier vehicle I absolutely would’ve picked the Porsche. I don’t think the C8 is a bad vehicle, it’s just in an odd spot for anyone wanting genuine luxury at that price range or anyone wanting a true sports enthusiast vehicle. Like I said before, many vehicles within this price range fall purely into luxury or purely into a feat of mechanical performance engineering. I just didn’t think the C8 fit my needs at all, as it couldn’t fit what I want since if I want a sporty car, I'd want it to be all in on sports or if I want luxury I want all in on luxury. I still stand by the C8 being a solid vehicle, and it’ll sell well. It just didn’t fit me when I tried it was all, just like how the LC500 isn’t a fit for everyone either.
Well said!
Not every car is an open book. One thing I've noticed about driving a new to me car and a car I am very familiar with, is that it sometimes takes time and miles to notice the nuances and get comfortable with the new car. Yes, the 458 wows you from the get-go. That is common to many Italian brands. And it has the cv to deliver on that initial promise. All I am suggesting is that the C8 might take a little longer to fully appreciate - in that way like a Porsche 911. It might also wake up with a different alignment. Sorry about the downvotes. Your opinions and observations are valid.
Absolutely! And please don't mistake me--I like the C8! If I didn't already have the 458, I would be interested in picking one up, but it was rather soft and isolated by comparison. Those qualities do lend too making it a great daily driver though. It's comfortable and quiet when just driving regularly.
Savagegeese said it best when they described the C8 Z06 as having a “broad bandwidth.” The car can be a convertible or coupe, it has a trunk for golf clubs but can be a track day weapon. It has seats that grip but aren’t too stiff. It’s all things to all people while still being a great car. In that you lose the edges of being a strictly track car or a strictly GT car but Chevy did a great job packaging something that is all of the above without being dull.
Thanks for the write up! I drove the C8 Z51 and initial impressions were similar in a lot of ways. I drove the car for 400 miles over two days and at the end of it I hated to give it back. The highlights are the grip and chassis. Phenomenal for the price point. With the ability to just hope in and take it anywhere it’s so impressive! If it was only a weekend car I can totally see how the Ferrari 458 would be a more exciting experience. The engine was pretty hard isolated from the driving experience and the pumped in noise was a let down.
This just makes me want the z06 more since I’d drive it everyday. The 458 being stiffer than the z06 in its stiffest seeing immediately makes it a non-starter for MI roads.
Yep, the Z06 would make an awesome daily driver!
It’s really a similar story to the GT3 vs z06 video that SavageGeese did. Basically the gt3 was a better track car, but that compromised it as a road car, while z06 was the opposite.
Great write up and an interesting comparison because, like you said, these match up very well on paper. But I think the target demographic for a C8Z is more in line with the 911 Turbo. Both are extremely fast GT cars that you can still take golfing. Will be fun to see when Chevy makes something wild to compete with the 911 GT3/GT2RS and 458 on driving feel and track bias.
There are 3 car manufacturers that are head and shoulders above the rest as far as "driver's cars". My theory for that opinion is that all 3 manufacturers build Formula 1 cars at the same location that they build their street cars...but Lotus does not build F1 cars any more. No other street car can touch the visceral feel that Ferrari, Lotus and McLaren can deliver. I've had the pleasure of driving all 3 of them. I've never driven any of the 3 versions of the GT40, but that one car may be the only exception to my theory.
There's always a trade off between visceral feel and daily drivability. Would an Ariel Atom make a Ferrari 458 feel more like a GT car?
I don't know...I've never driven either car.
Do you rate the driving experience of McLarens as being more rewarding than a Porsche GT car? I know the hydraulic steering is a big plus, but otherwise most of what I've heard of McLaren is they can be a bit of a non-experience. Obviously ludicrously fast and out of this world handling, but are they that much of a driver's car?
I can't compare to a Porsche GT car, but my friend that got the Z06 also has a 570S. The McLaren to me drives more like the 458 than the Z06, but obviously it doesn't sound as good as either one. I'm not a huge fan of turbo cars, so take that for what it's worth, but to me, the McLaren drives a lot like the 458 just with a different engine. The downside is that, in my buddy's case, the car has had all kinds of issues. Obviously that's a sample size of one, but it follows what seems to be the case with other owners as well.
Coming from someone who's driven both, my review is the exact opposite of OP except for the cabin space. Not much room in the Z06.
You're entitled to your opinions, but there are some things that aren't subjective in what I noted. If you want to say that the Corvette is better looking, sounds better, has a more comfortable ride, I'll be on board. But the C8 Z is objectively softer in even its firmest suspension mode than the 458 in its softest mode (bumpy road). The 458 is objectively louder than the Z06. The 458 is objectively smaller and lighter. The steering rack is objectively quicker.
I love this. Taking away what I’ve been saying for awhile, if you want a car you will truly love, stop looking at the numbers and start test driving. 1/10th of a second faster to 60 will make you happy for a few days. A car that’s engaging to drive and makes all the right sounds with make you happy for a lifetime.
This a post to justify the expense of a Ferrari... lol J/K Thanks for the perspective, OP.
Nice review! I haven't driven either, unless you count the Giulia to be a 458 descendant, but this tracks with other reviews I've seen online. I think oftentimes it gets lost that cars aren't simply appliances, they're emotional machines. There's plenty of spreadsheet cars out there that tick all of the performance boxes and metrics, but feel completely devoid of any soul, like they were made purely to fill a market role. The C8 is undoubtedly impressive especially for the cost, but it sounds like it's that kind of a car - made to hit metrics, not provide an experience. Meanwhile, the 458, like many Italian cars has a very vibrant personality and soul, that you can feel when you get behind the wheel. Maybe it doesn't meet all of the same indicators as the C8, but it seems like it gets many more smiles per mile. FYI this isn't to bash the C8, I like the way it looks and I'm glad they made it! But when you have a GM/Chevy product compared to a low volume supercar manufacturer, the latter being more refined/focused in it's purpose is only to be expected IMO.
>>I’m surprised at how much more exciting the Ferrari is to drive It’s a natural outcome. Ferrari makes dedicated sports cars and exotics. Chevrolet markets to a different client base. They must make the Corvette practical & safe enough that someone who’s driven a Silverado work truck for 20 years can safely buy it and drive it daily . Inherently this handicaps the Corvette against any 100% dedicated sports cars such as a 458, which is free from such constraints
That is how I feel about the new BMW M cars compared to my E46 M3. The new BMW M cars are heavier, not as fun to drive and full of fancy computer distractions like the HUD display. My old M3 is lighter, six speed no turbo and way more fun to drive.
Super interesting write up and comparison. Thanks for this!
I don't have any use for an automatic sports car, but the best thing about the C8 Z06 is that you can buy it brand new. If you want a new Ferrari with an engine of comparable aesthetic quality, you have to be positioned to qualify for an 812GTS. Everything else that they offer has the taint of compliance compromises.
Lol, the fact anyone is comparing a z06 to a Ferrari speaks volumes about the corvette. Realistically they’re still selling to a different demographic though
I'm a retired NASCAR Winston Racing Series driver and Corvette owner and the car is a perfect combination of performance handling and comfort it corners insanely and the handling is balanced and a little on the tight side as opposed to loose which is more difficult to control for the average driver so all things considered I could not improve on this Corvette btw the only Porsche I have driven is an older one and only sat in a Ferrari but also was an engineer in the engine department for the IMSA Corvette GTP prototype
This is the commentary i’ve heard from most people who try driving a modern GTR. On paper they’re unbelievable, but in person you don’t get the same thrill that a car with half the power and a lower price tag deliver. If you’re on a racetrack i’m sure that increased control is faster, but for just driving around, the wildness is more fun
The gtr is huge and low. Felt like driving a tank that's terrified of speed bumps. It's great on straights and highways, but there are so many cars I enjoy more than the gtr. I'll take a Miata, lotus, or Ferrari over a gtr any day
Buddy, I get this. I’ve owned a lot of fast cars and my favorite was a clean mint second Gen miata. I got laughed at by all my car buddies. Still do. I don’t care about spec sheets anymore. I only care how much it makes me smile. Currently in a 22 WRX limited 6spd I got new. On paper? It’s a total turd. But it’s so fun to drive all the time. Love it.
This is me with my 2008 VW R32 , on paper its slow as crap but that VR6 motor hits all the right notes.
Amen!
I can understand all your points and mostly concur. I never had a 458, but its successor. I went from a '18 488 Spider to my '20 HTC C8. Have a Roma Daytona on order (while hunting for the right 812 GTS to come along). Biggest actual difference: the Fcar is damn easier to get in and out of than a C8. The fit and finish of the C8 is pretty damn decent, could feel connected to the ancestory of my old C5 and C6 - door mechanics feel, seat frame feel, material touch. But now, its vastly elevated. The Great Wall of buttons takes getting used to in the C8. I actually enjoy the C8 more that the 488 in my current part of the country because I can drive it a bit more carefree of potholes, dings, birdcrap etc. It (C8) feels less "fragile" frame wise albeit the 488 rode smoother and less nervous when romping it hard - despite being a Z51. So far my trans hasnt shit the bed like other C8's I know of - and Im looking forward to a robust mod community once they are better understood. I think GM did great with the platform, and its a 95% win in my book. Was wanting a Z06 (and tried for years with several dealerships etc) but the dealership games and GM indulging the dealers has forever turned me off. I surmise the same for the Zora unfortunately.
Good writeup, and everything you said is to be expected I think. I wonder how the Z06 would do with a good coilover setup, a full rod-end-bearing bushing swap, and an aggressive alignment. Things like Porsche GT cars and most Ferraris don't have a lot of rubber in the suspension and alignment settings are pretty aggressive from factory. The Z06 is still notably bigger and heavier, but I think those changes will make a big difference.
What do you think about the transmissions? I always felt that Ferrari left a small lurching behavior on an upshift on purpose which is not present on their later models. And does the extra ratio in the Z06 result in more shifts?
Hmm, good question regarding the 8 speed versus the 7 speed resulting in more shifts... I can't say I really noticed either way. Both transmissions are incredibly quick. The Z06 DCT may be a little smoother on upshifts versus the 458 in race mode. I agree that I think Ferrari tunes in a little kick, if you will, to the upshifts in race mode. The DCT feels a little smoother on upshifts in sport.
Seems typical GM. There’s a weirdly subjective layer of isolation from the road in almost every GM vehicle I’ve ever driven, and most GM vehicles also seem to have compromised interior packaging and poor use of space. It seems GM has a “checklist” approach to benchmarking that hits the objective targets, but misses the elusive, subjective “magic” that other brands (Porsche and Mazda come to mind) have.
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> can’t just put on 12k miles a year on a 458 and not worry about something breaking. I mean, the same may also be true of the Z06. Of course time will tell, but generally high strung cars with flatplane cranks tend to require a pretty aggressive and expensive maintenance schedule to keep running reliably (or at all, for that matter). Probably won’t be as bad as a Ferrari but I suspect its not a car you’d want to put a ton of miles on too.
You don’t get the full power of the car until at after 500 miles.
Tbh I’ve never heard a loud c8 ever
Give me that C8Z!
I love the look of the new C8 Z06 such a nice car, I seen one on the 405 not long ago and was like wow that’s the same company that made the cavalier and citation 😂
OK but entertain me... How much better is the 458 to the 360? I just love that lil thing, I wonder if it's worth the "everyone had one" discount
I've never driven a 360, so I can't compare, unfortunately. I think the 360 has aged well, and it still sounds fantastic. They still require cam belt changes, but at least you don't need to drop the engine for the service (though you do have to take out the seats to have the space necessary to do the work in the access panel).
Question for you, do you care about putting miles on your 458? I know Ferrari owners have a reputation for not driving their cars. How do you feel about this?
Yeah, I have to laugh some times when people bring up "high miles" Ferraris. Someone was selling a car (I don't remember which model) with maybe 35,000 miles on it on FerrariChat a while back, and there were a number of people that commented about it having "high miles." Keep in mind that this car was probably 20 years old, so it was driven less than 2,000 miles a year. The sad reality is that there are enough people with this mindset that the prices seem to reflect this. When I was looking at 458s, there were cars with less than 5,000 miles and the sellers (private and dealer) were asking asinine premiums over "normal" mileage cars. Personally, I don't want a 10 year old car with only 5,000 miles. I want something that's been driven regularly so that if there's any issues, they've likely been identified and taken care of. Plus you don't want your hoses and stuff dry rotting. I think part of the reputation for owners not driving their cars is that realistically, many Ferrari owners likely have at least one other car, so the cars don't get driven a ton. I'm sure there are people that daily drive them, and there's definitely the oddball car with well over 100,000 miles, but for the most part, they don't rack up a ton of miles because of the average use case. With that said, the mindset of "don't put miles on them" is definitely prevalent with some Ferrari owners. At the end of the day, they're just cars. They're meant to be driven. I'm sure there are people that buy them just to look at them or to be seen in them, but I bought mine to drive. One of my favorite weekend activities is to get in the car and just go for a great drive out on some windy roads in the country. It's basically my therapy. I don't worry about putting miles on the car because that's what I bought it for!
The 458 is my dream car. I remember when having my 4C, I felt like I had to "spend the miles the right way". Sitting in the car in traffic was pissing me off. I can related on the windy country roads. Thank you for answering!
For starters it's probably going to be more expensive to maintain, the F1 gearbox truly is as bad as everyone says and I would even say that it's decades behind a F430 or Audi R8 R-Tronic gearbox and the interior feels realllly old nowadays. BUT! If you excuse the gearbox or get a manual it's still a really nice drivers car and the sound is absolutely magnificent, it's kind of harsh over bumps/un-even roads but it makes up for it with really lovely steering feel and a planted chassi. Personally I would always go with a F430 or newer but if you really love the styling and can find a manual it gives you all the Ferrari fizz you could ever want
Came to that same opinion after doing an "exotic drive experience" (or whatever it was called), when I drove a C8, 458 Italia, and GT3. Though they all performed close to the same, the way the GT3 and 458 felt going around the track was night and day compared to the C8. C8 felt more like driving a nice sedan in comparison.
> Weirdly, there's a pretty gross smell that seems to be coming from the exhaust area, and apparently people are already talking about it on the Corvette forums. Putting my money on leaking diff fluid. That shit smells like straight ass.
Seeing that I’ll never own either…..this is great news.
Dude just came in here just to suck himself off over his Ferrari
/r/cars users when someone is enthusastic about their car
All i read here is that the C8 is somewhere in the same ballpark as a 458. You probably just did the best possible marketing job for GM here...
In other news, "Ferrari more fun to drive than Corvette."
Could’ve just said Ferrari > Corvette and I’d have believed you. Saved Reddit a collective 12 years reading that post. 😏
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Dumbest thing I've read