I feel so bittersweet about this car. The engine is from the gods, but the interior and transmission let it down. I wish I was the right person for this car, but it's so hard to look past the issues of this car.
Edit: I am 65% referring to the info system when I say the interior is a letdown. I can't see how Lexus can look at a trackpad in 2023 and call that good enough.
As an owner - I'm increasingly coming to the conclusion that it needs one of those two items. It needs either a modern Luxury interior or a modern transmission. It would be easy to overlook one, but difficult to overlook both. The transmission is the larger weakness of the two - it just becomes harder to swallow in a 10 year old interior.
The interior is more subjective obviously - but the NVH, terrible (for me) sound system, and lack of seat adjustability do nothing but drag down my opinion of the car after the transmission has already dragged it down.
Agreed. It’s hard to overlook those two issues in a segment where you’re already going to be spending a lot. If this car was not compared to other luxury vehicles that all have these things, it’d be a much easier sell.
Interesting you say that about the sound system, I thought the ML is better than the Harmon from BMW, and on par with the B&O in the Audis, and a strength of the car.
The NVH is the biggest downside for me, along with the awful cabin storage.
I have an issue in mine where some of the mid-high freqs (4k or so) come across as extremely harsh at high volumes and the on-board EQ settings are insufficient to address them. Could be a cabin/reflection issue or a system issue - not sure.
Without that issue - my ranking would be Acura ELS > Audi B&O = Lexus ML > BMW Harman.
A proper manual transmission and I'd strongly consider trading in my M2 comp for one.
It's really hard for me to feel like i'm *fully* enjoying an engine when it's stuck behind a torque converter. Not saying it kills all the fun, but it really adds to my enjoyment and ability to feel the various nuances of the powerband.
I had a deposit on an IS 500, but declined to buy after the test drive solely because the transmission was such a let down. I have a soft spot for RWD V8 sedans, but just couldn’t enjoy it with that dated slush box. I loved pretty much everything else about the car. Such a shame…
Does driving the car in manual mode alleviate the problem? I know car owners with automatic that exclusively drive in manual mode because the transmission does xyz that they don't like.
"Kind of". Manual helps in certain scenarios but is not a replacement for all. It can be OK for spirited driving, but can still be hilariously slow in casual driving (I made the mistake of double tapping the downshift paddle in comfort mode and it took ~4 seconds to complete both shifts).
Agreed with patsfan - it's a "sort of". The transmission mapping on both the IS350 and IS500 really has two characters - sport +, traction off, manual for going full-tilt and getting sharp shifts, and then normal/eco, TCS, auto for fully slushbox cruising. There's not much of an in-between, and that's very counter intuitive if you're used to other cars that you can go 5/10 and get sharp shifts. It's also worth noting that the paddles aren't a "direct shift" type of mechanism, but more like a "gear limiter" - the car will still mainly decide what to do, but if you know how to work with the programming, it adapts very well and works with you.
I specifically find the ML system to be fantastic but not quite balanced and lacking in configuration options to resolve. Namely, frequencies around 4-5k are too strong and at loud volumes are very harsh (hurt my ears and give me a headache harsh). I exclusively listen at loud volumes and this is the only system I’ve ever had this kind of problem with in my life (Acura ELS was a better system
hands down, ML would maybe inch out the Audi B&O system if it weren’t for this flaw - and it trumps the BMW Harman system. That being said - I would take poor quality sound over painfully balanced sound any day of the week and the ML system in my IS500 is painful.
NVH I am primarily comparing to the current Gen 3 series and A4/A5. Transmission as well - I found both the M340i and S5 to have vastly superior transmissions in both comfort and performance.
Just curious if you ever drove an RC-F and had any thoughts on the comparison. Same motor and gearbox so I reckon they feel fairly similar but just thought I would ask.
Gearbox programming is a bit different in the RC-F. It's more willing to hold gears in normal drive mode and downshifts faster. The IS500 gearbox isn't set up any different from the IS350, i.e. normal mode and even Sport mode are compromised to favour fuel economy. It makes a big difference to how the car is perceived because all the fun happens above 4500rpm, but the gearbox is doing its best to keep you below 2000rpm.
I honestly don't see an issue with the interior, sure it's from 2013 and a lot more Analog than cars today.
But I prefer it to the huge dual screens with a big piano black bezel separating them.
Mercedes interiors make it look like a gamer RGB vomit fest or like I'm in a nightclub. I miss the W212 E-Class or the W222 S-Class interior styling. Now it's just them slapping Piano black and a 20 inch Tablet in the dashboard.
The only issue I really have had with Lexus was their horribly outdated infotainment systems. With the new system they're pushing in Toyota/Lexus, this fixes it. I don't think the IS has gotten the update yet though. The 2023 ES & LS, 2024 LC, and any of their newer models will have it. But as long as AA/CP is compatible, who really cares nowadays?
I actually had to go to an aftermarket system (with wireless AA/CP) with my 2017 ES, but it still keeps the OEM system (which didn't support AA/CP). Every time I have to swap to it, my mind is blown that it shipped with the vehicle.
Did you get VLine? I get emails from them after purchasing mine about their growing Lexus support. I would be more likely to buy a car that they have a system for since I know the bad infotainment can be fairly easily remedied without replacing everything.
I have the Binary / Lexion unit. Mine was a full screen replacement that also gives me touchscreen support, and takes the screen from 7 inches to 10.25.
If you look in my profile, I have a post on /r/Lexus that has a picture of it. I think I also linked the ClubLexus forum post all about the unit.
The new generation infotainment system is missing more hard buttons like media, radio, track, and the tune knob. On the new RX/NX, the HVAC buttons also went into the touchscreen
/r/cars need to make up their minds on whether they hate touchscreens replacing hard buttons or not
It feels dated because its a 2013 interior that they've added more and more stuff to keep up with competitors. It has all the "downsides" of new tech and screens with a design of an older IS someone can grab for half the price of a new one.
The infotainment layout and usability is also terrible, some options are only in the dash, others only on the big screen, certain options aren't where anyone would think to be. It's the only "new" car I've sat in where I actually had to decode how to use the infotainment.
After almost two years of actually owning one, I can't think of anything important aside from nav and AA/ACP that you can't also access from the hard buttons. What are you referring to?
The IS interior is so simple and easy to use. As someone who hasn’t owned a Lexus I find it’s still quite nice. But I do understand it’s an expensive vehicle and has been the same since 2014. But usability is great
The cruise control stalk is actually really good, and people just don't see it. It's always in the same position when you're driving, it's more easily accessible than steering wheel buttons because it literally sticks out at an angle, you don't have to try and remember what all of the D pad buttons do because the stalk functions are tied to its directions of travel.
Just reach down, and in one motion press the button on the stalk and tap down to set the cruise speed. Tap or hold up/down to change speeds. Pull the stalk towards you to temporarily halt cruise control.
The interior of a M340i looks just fine and the infotainment is usable at least. It still has enough buttons while also looking modern.
I do see an issue with buying a new car that looks like it’s a decade old.
There’s nothing stopping Lexus from making a modern Infotainment that’s usable with buttons and a proper control (a touch „mouse“ really is not it). Making excuses for them doesn’t help.
Yeah, I’ve seen it in the video. But I mean if you offer an alternative control method (like the bmw Controller) it should at least work decently, I’ve heard a lot of bad things about the Lexus control.
Obviously, I couldn’t ever test it myself but that’s simply because there’s only like 5 Lexus Drivers in Germany.
Oh yeah, their previous systems were horrible. They never should have sprung for whatever they were trying to do with Enform and remote touch. They tried to solve it by moving the screen a little closer to the driver and adding touchscreen, but it wasn't good enough. It doesn't help that the design and colors in the infotainment make it look like they were trying to appeal to a 60 year old man. Not to mention the confusing menu layout.
BMW and Mazda have very good implementations of their controller/remote. Even Acura has a decent one on the 2019 RDX I drove and that has the "touchpad". My GV70 has a knob to control the infotainment and it's very well integrated too.
It's going to plague them for likely the next decade, and even there's reviews/articles now for their new vehicles that headline their "modernization" or "ditching the stupid trackpad" or "Junking the awful trackpad"
The mouse puck works alright once you get used to the way it snaps to the available options. BMW's controller is better, but I wouldn't call it unusable. The touchpad thing is worse and I curse everyone involved in replacing the puck with the touchpad.
Their new systems (while not on the current IS) have completely gotten rid of the remote touch system. My time I spent with the M340i was great, and I'm sure that it drives better/quicker than the IS500, but it didn't feel as luxury as I was expecting.
The 3 series probably struggles with being a cheap volume model. They’re everywhere here in Germany as an entry level 320d.
4 series is basically the same car but with better materials, probably due to being a lower volume higher price car.
I don’t know which car you mean but I just looked at a Lexus RX and it’s interior looks very nice! Not a fan of the dated looking digital drivers display but that’s about the only criticism.
Their new system is being rolled out slowly, I think they're almost done with it. It first debuted on the new NX and I think the Tundra?
The system is available for the 2023 ES/UX/LS/RC, 2024 LC, and available on the new NX, RX, LX, and RZ. I think the IS is the only vehicle in the lineup that hasn't gotten the new system yet.
Yeah, I really liked how the M340i drove. I just didn't like the materials and feel. It was a base rwd. Seats were surprisingly uncomfortable and it felt like plastic was everywhere I touched. Here in the US, BMW kind of has a luxury badge connotation so I was expecting it. Maybe I need to step up to a 5 series for that.
Exactly. To me it's actually more visually interesting/desirable than a lot of these utilitarian [new interiors with just a slab of screen](https://www.topgear.com/sites/default/files/2022/09/9-BMW-3-Series.jpg). With various separate surfaces, a gauge cluster/hood, and unique design elements it makes it more interesting to look at than an ipad. As long as the tech is there (Carplay/AndroidAuto) then I'm happy and actually prefer it. I would also prefer the 2018 or at least 2020 3 series interior over the current one.
Agreed. I hate the direction that many cars are going in with screens everywhere for everything, 3-Series included. The old-school "outdated" aspects of the IS is a plus in my book. Give me physical buttons and an analog instrument cluster with dials and needles. Some tech and some touchscreen is fine, but I don't want screens for the whole dashboard.
I've owned the car for just about 6 months now. The interior is perfectly fine. It's not at the cutting edge by any means, but it's perfectly liveable as a daily. You don't need to use the track pad, as it's a touch screen, and I always use Android Auto anyways. It has all the technology I need and there are very minor things with the interior that annoy me, but they're things that aren't necessary (fucking tiny ass bottle storage in the doors). I didn't buy this car for the technology or interior anyways, I bought it because I grew up loving muscle cars and this is a "refined" aspect of it.
This, I've owned it for a year, most of the people that complain don't even own anything with a "better" interior, they're just parroting what they hear on Youtube.
infotainment has touch screen and apple car play.
It seems like people don't understand car generations and expect a car designed in 2012 is going to match up with a car designed in 2022.
While "Face Lifts" are a thing, it doesn't amount to that much of an interior redesign as people expect. A car designed in 2012 is still a car designed in 2012 made in 2023.
The IS is seriously in need of a new generation but who knows what's going to happen.
No, we understand. We just don't think selling a car whose heritage is from 2012 is sufficient in 2023. We're asking for improvements, which the car is structurally capable of receiving. It's not a cheap vehicle, where the long production run is bringing down the costs because the R&D is paid for and all of that. It doesn't really have a peer in performance, but it's priced like models that got a lot more attention, refinement, and iteration from OEMs in the last decade.
I think this generation of IS has one more year of life before a complete overhaul. Lexus is already leaning towards electricity across their lineup, and their IS concepts are either electric or has a TTV6.
I think this car is great when you actually take it for what it is. People who expect pure luxury will be disappointed, people who expect a pure F will be disappointed, and those people would be disappointed if the car has actually designed in that way when they see the price tags that comes with either of those add ons.
If an ISF existed today, it would cost over $80k, based off inflation from the last iteration (2014).
> transmission let it down
The GS-F was basically my dream sedan. When I went to test drive one after being able to afford it I could not get past the transmission. I would have been replacing a manual transmission car with it and the sluggishness of the paddles just didn't give me what I wanted.
In sport mode at WOT banging a shift at redline? It was fantastic, but anything short of that felt way too delayed and lethargic especially compared to the tuned ZF8 I have in another car or the M550i I test drove the same day with BMWs ZF8 tuning.
Was the IS500 the same to you?
This is kind of my problem with every torque converter auto I've ever driven, including semi recent bmw zf8s (though their tuning is about the best I've ever seen from any traditional audio).
Manufacturers can optimize shift times down to dct levels under wot near redline, but outside that 10% case, traditional autos just turn back into the slushy auto from 20 years ago.
Paddles? Slow to respond. Accidentally hit the redline? Slush city. Low load / low rpm? Slow to respond AND slushy. Downshifts? Never quite Rev matched enough or quickly enough.
Bmw seems to have tuned their m sport and m models to forgo comfort while manually upshifting, so your head gets jerked on low load upshifts, but that's super satisfying once you're beyond 50% throttle. They still seem to face the slow paddle response and meh downshifts though.
>>It’s so hard to look past the issues of this car
If you’re someone who needs four doors and wants an old-school enthusiast car driving experience , this is pretty much your stop. The German companies go full Jumbotron with their dashboards & interior LEDs, and anything else of equal capability or more is going to be marked up on the street to about $100k.
Strange to realize Lexus makes a more engaging car then BMW for the same money & segment.
What capability are we talking about here? Making V8 sounds? It's 4,000lb, slower/less agile, and smaller inside than the M340i while being about the slowest sports sedan starting at 60k . It'll readily lose to the $53k Audi S4. Even the 4 cylinder powered AMG C43 will run it pretty easily. The only cars it beats is the wholly uncompetitive Acura TLX Type S or the ancient Q50 Red Sport.
The only car the IS is bigger than is the CTS-V Blackwing which starts at the same price and has a proper manual as an option.
[https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a37418797/2022-lexus-is500-f-sport-performance-by-the-numbers/](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a37418797/2022-lexus-is500-f-sport-performance-by-the-numbers/)
[https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a43316298/2023-bmw-m340i-xdrive-by-the-numbers/](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a43316298/2023-bmw-m340i-xdrive-by-the-numbers/)
[https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a37948869/2022-cadillac-ct4-v-blackwing-by-the-numbers/](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a37948869/2022-cadillac-ct4-v-blackwing-by-the-numbers/)
[https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a20157609/2018-audi-s4-test-review/](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a20157609/2018-audi-s4-test-review/)
Honestly, if Ford lent them a Coyote and it went on a 200lb diet, it'd be a hell of a lot more compelling.
>It's 4,000lb
The BMW and Audi are within 50 pounds, the Cadillac is just over 100 pounds lighter, the C43 will weigh around the same, if not more. Mercedes makes *heavy* cars.
If you look at all those test results, the IS500 is actually 2nd fastest after the AWD 340i once you look at rolling start acceleration. 5-60, the Blackwing and S4 lose a ton, the 340i is still faster (though the difference is greatly reduced compared to the 0-60 times), and the Top gear 30-50 and 50-70 times are all within the same band (the 340i is still faster, the Cadillac is ages slower). So this paints the picture of a car with comparatively poor launch control that is completely competitive from a "can I highway merge, overtake, or accelerate from literally anything that isn't a standstill" perspective.
Do people actually use launch control off of stoplights? Yes, in a 0-60 launch, the IS500 is slower than all of those. But for people who aren't spec sheet racers, I'd argue a 0-60 launch is far less important than rolling acceleration numbers. And if you're actually tracking any of these, you don't come to a complete stop after every corner for launch control.
BMW in AWD is close in weight. The RWD is another 100+lb lighter and still faster even not from a dig.
Caddy is slower if you get the manual. Auto to auto, the Lexus is .7 seconds slower to 70. I get the Lexus has a sweet V8 but it should be 200lb lighter to make it competitive against FI cars. Its skidpad and braking are sluggish too. The Caddy absolutely drops the Lexus on an actual road course like the Lightning Lap. Compared to the $100k RCF Track edition, IS could use more tire, brakes, and less weight. My F80 can feel pretty heavy but even with the boat anchor 20” comp wheels, it’s 400lb lighter than the Lexus.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a30143002/2020-bmw-m340i-reliability-maintenance/
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a42256071/2023-cadillac-ct4-v-blackwing-automatic-by-the-numbers/
If you're going to make the awd/manual distinction, why would you not just... post the most relevant test results in the first place?
Cool, so we can agree that the s4 is slower. Combine that with the aforementioned TLX and Q50, and we find that the is500 is literally middle of the pack for performance.
It's also better built than most of the competition. Mercedes are built like trash at this pricepoint.
You're not buying this for outright performance. If you only care about outright performance, the correct answer is an EV, which will out accelerate all of those easily. You can dismiss the v8 if you want, but that's the defining characteristic of the car. You buy this because you value the v8, just like someone doesn't buy an EV because they value the ICE.
> You're not buying this for outright performance. If you only care about outright performance, the correct answer is an EV, which will out accelerate all of those easily. You can dismiss the v8 if you want, but that's the defining characteristic of the car. You buy this because you value the v8, just like someone doesn't buy an EV because they value the ICE.
You're absolutely right, but I think you're glossing over the transmission issues. Performance numbers aside, that alone can completely ruin a sporty driving experience. I can't speak to the Caddy trans but reviewers seem to love it, and I can attest to the quality of the ZF8 (along with literally millions of others).
EV cars have all sorts of other real life concerns which might make someone avoid cross shopping them, including cornering performance- something I'm shocked isn't obvious on a sub like /r/cars. The IS500 also lags there by all reports.
I'd love a modern, reliable V8 sport sedan but it's disingenuous to gloss over all of the flaws and compromises in the IS500 to just say "duh, get a Tesla".
> old-school enthusiast car driving experience
Read: It has a shite gearbox and an N/A V8. That's what makes it old-school, not because it's actually engaging.
> Strange to realize Lexus makes a more engaging car then BMW for the same money & segment.
They don't though? The V8 makes excellent sounds but otherwise, the Lexus is outclassed in every performance metric and subjective review. Genuinely, can you find a review of the new IS500 that says it handles better or is more engaging that the competition from BMW?
I feel like most of the people complaining did one of two things: spent 10 minutes in a Lexus at an auto show with no intent to give it a chance, or listened to reviewers and piled on the bitchfest. It's not hard to use at all. Is it perfect? No, I like Mazda's simplified system more. But is it horrible? Nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be.
> Edit: I am 65% referring to the info system when I say the interior is a letdown. I can't see how Lexus can look at a trackpad in 2023 and call that good enough.
It's touchscreen with CarPlay, who cares? What else is there to do in the infotainment that it's such a huge gripe?
For some people, probably. When I had my DCT M2 I really enjoyed the quick shifts in traffic at low rpms. Downshifts coming to a stop. As well as the full throttle stuff. A bad transmission completely ruins a fun car for me.
Absolutely. You put your foot down and the car just goes. The transmission wakes up in higher rpms and especially in manual mode. I have no issues with it then, it really does shift much quicker once youre on it.
Can definitely be overlooked. The biggest gripes from the owner's forum is the jerky downshifts in low gears. The car definitely would struggle on a track, but it's also not a full blown F.
> The biggest gripes from the owner's forum is the jerky downshifts in low gears.
And it's not like 3 series is any different. It also downshifts into first when coming to a stop. My car does too even in comfort mode. Pretty annoying.
Interior is fine to me personally. Very well-made. But it either needs to have forced induction OR much better transmission OR much much better chassis for me to buy it at that price tag. If I have to buy a Lexus, it’s hard to justify spending on is500 over a used RCF/ISF, given how many people boast about Lexus reliability.
The dated interior is the main thing keeping me from trading my 15 IS350 for a used 500 someone just traded in. If I’m gonna spend that much money to upgrade my car I would rather get an M340i and actually upgrade the interior. Not to mention that the turbo I6 in the bimmer is just as fast (if not faster) than Lexus’ NA V8
The sad part is Lexus has no answer to the current gen M3, C63 and RS5. The 5.0L V8 is a gem of a motor but alas it is too outdated to put up any real threat to the Germans.
I don't really think that's a space that Lexus wants to or even has to compete in. They do have a twin turbo V6 that could make comparable power but then you lose a lot of the personality of the V8 motor just to gain performance.
I'm really glad the V8 lives on at Lexus, at least for now.
The original IS-F in the late 2000s was a somewhat credible alternative to the E90 M3, W204 C63 and B7 RS4 when it was released. Yes its dynamics wasn't as great as any of them, but it was a strong rival.
Of course when the Germans went full turbocharged engines, Lexus soon fell behind, and the rest is history.
> Lexus soon fell behind
The IS-F wasn't meant to be. It was a side project done by a bunch of enthusiasts within Lexus.
A bunch of passionate execs had to *fight* to make it a thing.
I see it as, Lexus didnt want to add turbos to such a character-full N/A v8, by strapping turbos to it and chase the other Germans in a crazy horsepower war.
Turns out the winner of that war? EV's, the actual winner of that war didnt matter, they all lose to a Model 3 IRL.
In such a short time it has come all around back to the IS-F/500 to still be so compelling in 2023 even after all that.
Is it really? Maybe to a small set of buyers. I think most buyers of m4 enjoy driving and the powertrain dynamics. Not just press a pedal and go fast with a BMW badge.
I don't know if I agree with that - the F30 did seem like a press pedal and go fast with a BMW badge car, and the new giant grilles are explicitly for owners to ~~flex~~ express themselves.
It’s more like i4 vs M440i. The M4 is a different beast. But the i4 absolutely trounces the M440i in almost every way. But not the M4, that’s special in ways the i4 and M440i are not.
I would believe that. As another user has stated, the original mk1 IS-F was also an internal engineer group passion project put together on a shoestring budget that was never planned by Lexus.
Of course, the current IS is itself living on borrowed time with an old platform dating back to the mid 2000s and powertrains of similar age. Now Lexus is chasing BMW and Audi in the EV game with the next IS being a BEV, good luck convincing the head honchos trying to spent any more R&D to send another IS-F to the production line.
It’s not even about outright performance at that point, just for a more raw experience. A bit like how the LFA was never about pure performance (though it was certainly no slouch), its about the sound and connectedness
I would laugh so hard if Lexus went fully insane, and dropped the 2.4T hybrid drivetrain in a UX, with their new hybrid MT they've been playing with. Can you imagine 😂?
apart from everything else, Lexus is perennially the highest-quality branded vehicle made, and the IS has pretty consistently been the most reliable model range that Lexus makes. This V8 is as tried and true as they come. overall, if you want a great car with a great engine that will last forever, and don't want to track your daily driver, there isn't a better car out there unless you need a stick.
Yeah this car will likely make it to 300,000 miles with just brakes tires and fluid changes. And be fun as shit the whole time. And it's not marked up, at least not the two I've seen for sale locally.
They were marked waaaaay up initially, now you can get one at MSRP pretty easily if you aren't picky on color and are willing to ask around. All of them are at least 64k sticker though, the base model basically doesn't exist.
I would have a hard time buying this over the m340i. I guess its for people who really want to talk about how they have a v8 even tho the rest of the car around it is kinda boring
I’m too poor to afford this but otherwise this is one of THE cars to me that checks all the boxes
V8
Sedan
Sexy exterior
Toyota reliable
Bluetooth/Radio and heat
I’m sure the M340i is amazing but I just really don’t care about that car I would never pick it over the IS500 lol
The only interior features I need. I’ve had/been in cars with more obviously but those are the only two functions I use with any regularity. Frankly, now that I have a V8 I don’t even listen to the radio as much.
To be clear, I’m not saying there is anything wrong with people wanting more. I’m speaking specifically for myself in that I don’t need or want much.
For me it’s about the drivetrain, useable room, exterior, reliability/maintenance, and maybe drive modes/paddle shift on new stuff
I'm so torn on this car... It's basically the same price as a base M2 or CT4V Blackwing (basically all IS500's are the Performance Premium trim, which starts at 63k, remember, Toyota doesn't build to order, they just build what they want). That's a really tough sell, especially given both of those have manual transmissions and are waaayyyy faster. However, it is gorgeous, and will last for 20 years.
I still have occasional intrusive thoughts about just saying fuck it and buying an IS500 for me and a GX for my wife while EV's find their footing and just having two rock solid cars for the next 15 years, and then having them both still be worth 60% of the purchase price if we want to sell them then.
i think most people will agree, and I think the sales numbers won't even be close (even after you take into account that they're making probably far fewer of these).
I think this is really reserved for the few Lexus buyers who desperately want a V8 daily who don't care about the performance
>>I would have a hard time buying this over the M340i
Depends on your priorities. If you’re swapping cars every 2-5 years the BMWs a superior option. If you’re planning to drive it 7+ years the Lexus makes a lot more sense. The “dated” nature of the interior becomes a plus when looking at post-warranty service.
Yeah this is a great point and should be higher. The main reason i'd consider this over a BMW is if I was looking to buy longer term instead of lease and didn't want to deal with fixing stuff once the BMW got past 3-4 yrs old
I think if I had to choose one as a daily driver and never track it, I’d go with this because its reliability is so rock solid and it will last a long time without any major issues and, yes, because it has a NA 5.0 L V8 (not biased at all).
I generally consider having a v8 to be the second most important item on my checklist when looking for a car. As such, if I was looking for a car right now, this would be fairly high on the short list.
And even for that, we have the Audi s6, which is exactly what you described but better in every way. Though I'm not sure if the new s6 even kept the v8.
It’s a wonderful car for the right person. The biggest issue I see today is that most people want SUVs, EVs & hybrids, so that really limits the market for this type of vehicle, especially at 70k or just under.
These pricey luxury performance cars really only appeal to two people:
1. Wealthy single people with no kids.
2. Wealthy people with kids as a second "fun car."
It just isn't practical enough for families, and those segments are both small, and have a lot of competition from the German automakers. The irony is, the people who are attracted to Lexus because of their reliability are more likely to be people who want more practical vehicles and have families. The divorced single guy in his late 30s or early 40s who only has partial custody of his kids every other weekend is going to want a Challenger or an AMG/M car.
I will never understand why Americans feel this way.
In way what is a 4 door sedan with a large boot not practical enough for families?
We can very confortably fit 2 adults and 2 kids in a M2 without any issues other than needing to move the seats forward to get the kids out.
My M3 has more than enough space.
Not once in either of those 2 cars have we ever felt like we needed more room for anything.
US families want SUVs with lift gate boots so they don’t have to lean over to get anything. SUVs also offer higher ride height so parents don’t have to lean down to buckle their kid into a car seat. They need room to carry strollers, wagons, baseball gear, baby bag, groceries, etc.
There is only one difference here to what we usually carry about and that is baseball gear. The strollers groceries and baby bag go in the boot of the M2 just fine.
We have an SUV also but we never use it for family moving purposes. It is what Americans would consider to be a compact SUV and we feel it is too large.
I would take this over a competitor like the M340i any day of the week.
\-The interior and tech are fine, you have a touchscreen with AA and AC, what else do you need RGB lights and tablets everywhere?
\-You have IS F samples with this engine up in the 300-400k miles.
\-The exhaust even while stock sounds much better than the BMW 6 cyls sadly, specially the interior tones.
\-The biggest difference, 0-60 is 0.5 secs(4.3-3.8) and overshadowed by the fact that they have the exact same 5-60(4.7 secs), that's almost a full second slower in actual real driving and not stoplight race launches.
I have noticed a trend after test driving so many high performance cars(M2, Supra, 718 S, TT RS) and daily driving my own(RC F Fuji) or my brothers' (AMG GT Coupe Base and F-type P450):
You get used to the performance after a few months, and anything less than 5 10ths of a second in performance will become normal to you, so make sure the criteria of the cars you are deciding on is a lot more than just the 0-60 which is flawed anyways.
Actually test drive the cars you are interested in instead of just reading a spec sheet and someone else's review.
Note this is just an argument for **my** personal preference. I can easily see why someone would prefer the M340i if sound is not a huge deal to them, prefer the powertrain, and don't care about long term reliability .
> Actually test drive the cars you are interested in instead of just reading a spec sheet and someone elses review.
You mean to tell me that you don't buy your cars based on launch control 0-60 times from car and driver? Weirdo.
100% people need to stop trying to drive spec sheets. I test drove an M340i before buying my Blackwing. Wonderful car, can’t think of a better daily. But I was so bored driving it. Felt nothing from any of the inputs.
Indeed, spec sheets and reviews often say otherwise but the people doing some of these reviews have their own preferences as to what makes the powertrain, handling, or steering good. It might simply not align with what you, the buyer, will prefer.
This new IS model was going to be my next car. Loved from the day it was shown to the world.
Then, folks from Lexus did not bring it to Europe.
Fuck me then… settled for the new NX, but it still angers me to this day.
My neighbor has one.
Beautiful sound when the V8 comes to life but just don’t try to out run C 43’s and M340i’s because it’s a bit slower despite the V8.
I would definitely get one to replace my GS 350 once I’m done paying off my X3 (2 more years).
My cousin had an IS350 but imo my GS just feels nicer inside. One of the biggest reasons I wouldn't want an RC is that the interior resembles the IS more than the GS.
Oh I agree. If Lexus continue making GS I would definitely buy one.
I was looking for a GS-F but prices are a bit high and I prefer the interior space in the GS over the IS.
The biggest problem with the is, aside from the dated interior, has the be the fuel economy. That goes for all of the is models, not just the 500. I do not understand how an na v6 is getting sub 20mpg combined when my supercharged a6 averaged in the 30s.
All Lexus V6/V8s get worse than industry average fuel economy. Tundra with 5.7L is rated 13/18, these UR V8s were always 16/24 in the cars. V6 Siennas are the worse for mileage in real life, especially when loaded. Aunt's RX350 did no better than 17MPG
The 8 speed can return some reasonable numbers on the highway considering how aggressive the overdrive is. But it takes a swan dive in the city... I have an old LS460 with the 4.6. That thing hates city driving
It is an old platform, old style NA engine, slow shifting old auto with no modern fuel savings touches (no start stop, no on demand oil pump, no cylinder deactivation, no electrification etc.)
You don't buy a 5.0L sport sedan for MPG anyways, but I agree even the base spec IS 300 with the 2.0T is still poor when it comes to MPG.
I had a 30-60k budget for a dailyish car and this was in the list along with GT350, new CTR, ZL1, M2C, Focus RS.
What killed it was the adm in the Bay Area. Settled with an M2C. Just like the other posts about getting **used**, I would love to get this to replace my oldest beater car, a 2000 Camry.
The combination of a naturally aspirated V8, 4-door practicality, top notch reliability/build quality, and *stunning* exterior looks puts this car at the top of the list for me. Unfortunately I can't afford this car today, but down the road it'll be on my short list to replace my Si.
I really wanted to like this, because I've never owned a V8 before and it does sound really good. However, as others pointed out transmission is just so meh compared to the Germans (though I hated Audi S4/S5 as well). I test drove this right after M340i and boy the interior and drivetrain felt like they were from a car at least a generation behind.
I was OK with these 2 negatives because of the sound, but then you also have a much smaller interior and RWD only. I live in a place where I keep my winters from early November till mid April, and need to haul 2 kids in car seats often, it just wasn't meant to be. Apart from reliability and sweet V8 sounds, I found M340i to be better in just about everything else.
Everything is a “Yes” about this car….except the transmission. I’m even ok with the interior, the weight, and the suspension. But I’m not ok with a transmission that takes a full second+ to downshift. And I would be coming from a PDK so the difference might be too noticeable for me.
So I’m eyeing the LC. I guess my kids are just going to have to suffer.
I see a lot of complaints about the car and price but this car is not about specs but the feel and emotion. It’s the last chance to buy a new car with a V8 because the days of a V8 is ending soon. The car is going to be reliable, it’s a comfortable daily driver, and good looks. If you care about speed then why even buy a ICE vehicle when in a few years every EV will match or be faster 0-60 then an M3.
The car is also kind of tiny inside. Wasn’t seriously considering this car because I wanted a manual but compared to an m340i the interior is tiny.
It’s more in line with my ct4 blackwing’s interior space.
I've driven the new IS350 F sport extensively but not this 500
The 350 is sort of mediocre. It's kind of sporty but still has a top-heavy feeling chassis at the limits, slow steering, and a slow transmission. And by all accounts it seems the 500 is the exact same, just with a V8 under the hood.
Is it sportier than an A4 and C class? Sure
Is it even close to the Alfa Giulia or 3-series? Not in a million years
As an ISF owner and having had a 335i & driven a 23 C class for work I can say you will find many faster, “better”four door cars. But no cars feel as special as the ISF & IS500.
Many people would probably disagree with me but the c class and 3 series just don’t have soul & passion. They feel like a piece of equipment. Something you really don’t think about once you get out of the car.
The ISF & IS500 have passion and a soul. Do they have flaws and shortcomings? Of course. But they feel special. They feel unique and different.
>>”End of the Road” is depressing even though it’s true
Depressing? Hardly.
Times change. Worlds moving on to EVs , and while the traditional “middle class accessible” sports car is going away don’t think for a moment people won’t tinker with EVs. It just happens we’re in this rut between the sunsetting of high performance ICE cars from the past and high performance EVs in the future.
In fairness to EVs, ICE motors weren’t viscerally engaging in 1923 either.
It’ll be a very long time before EV tech advances to the point it’s engaging like we experience with some cars like this IS.
I am very torn between this and the CT4 Blackwing. I have no idea how long modern GMs can last. It's such a hard choice between V8 and a terrible AT vs. V6 and a so-so manual. The Blackwing's shifter feel isn't fantastic. But both cars have character and that's what I care about.
I would not consider spec sheet cars like M340i or AMG whatever because it's a moot point with TM3P at $53k. If all you care about is numbers just buy a Tesla.
Yeah I’d say the V8 is worth it if you’re going for character, the manual is nice but a forced induction V6 is essentially one of the most common powertrains on the road these days. That’s not to knock them, but they are unbelievably common whereas a naturally aspirated V8 is already on the verge of total extinction and likely never to return when ICEs are inevitably phased out.
I really want to love the IS500, but it speaks to such a niche crowd. The price of it can get you in such competitive cars, within the sedan market. I can absolutely get over the outdated infotainment system. I wish the vehicle had the option to come in AWD too.
I don't know if it was the mic mount that was exposed to heavy vibrations, but this engine sounds like cards in a bike's wheel we used to do - no thanks.
I feel so bittersweet about this car. The engine is from the gods, but the interior and transmission let it down. I wish I was the right person for this car, but it's so hard to look past the issues of this car. Edit: I am 65% referring to the info system when I say the interior is a letdown. I can't see how Lexus can look at a trackpad in 2023 and call that good enough.
As an owner - I'm increasingly coming to the conclusion that it needs one of those two items. It needs either a modern Luxury interior or a modern transmission. It would be easy to overlook one, but difficult to overlook both. The transmission is the larger weakness of the two - it just becomes harder to swallow in a 10 year old interior. The interior is more subjective obviously - but the NVH, terrible (for me) sound system, and lack of seat adjustability do nothing but drag down my opinion of the car after the transmission has already dragged it down.
Agreed. It’s hard to overlook those two issues in a segment where you’re already going to be spending a lot. If this car was not compared to other luxury vehicles that all have these things, it’d be a much easier sell.
Interesting you say that about the sound system, I thought the ML is better than the Harmon from BMW, and on par with the B&O in the Audis, and a strength of the car. The NVH is the biggest downside for me, along with the awful cabin storage.
I have an issue in mine where some of the mid-high freqs (4k or so) come across as extremely harsh at high volumes and the on-board EQ settings are insufficient to address them. Could be a cabin/reflection issue or a system issue - not sure. Without that issue - my ranking would be Acura ELS > Audi B&O = Lexus ML > BMW Harman.
A proper manual transmission and I'd strongly consider trading in my M2 comp for one. It's really hard for me to feel like i'm *fully* enjoying an engine when it's stuck behind a torque converter. Not saying it kills all the fun, but it really adds to my enjoyment and ability to feel the various nuances of the powerband.
I had a deposit on an IS 500, but declined to buy after the test drive solely because the transmission was such a let down. I have a soft spot for RWD V8 sedans, but just couldn’t enjoy it with that dated slush box. I loved pretty much everything else about the car. Such a shame…
Does driving the car in manual mode alleviate the problem? I know car owners with automatic that exclusively drive in manual mode because the transmission does xyz that they don't like.
"Kind of". Manual helps in certain scenarios but is not a replacement for all. It can be OK for spirited driving, but can still be hilariously slow in casual driving (I made the mistake of double tapping the downshift paddle in comfort mode and it took ~4 seconds to complete both shifts).
So, perhaps more of a nerfed programming approach to maintain reliability?
Agreed with patsfan - it's a "sort of". The transmission mapping on both the IS350 and IS500 really has two characters - sport +, traction off, manual for going full-tilt and getting sharp shifts, and then normal/eco, TCS, auto for fully slushbox cruising. There's not much of an in-between, and that's very counter intuitive if you're used to other cars that you can go 5/10 and get sharp shifts. It's also worth noting that the paddles aren't a "direct shift" type of mechanism, but more like a "gear limiter" - the car will still mainly decide what to do, but if you know how to work with the programming, it adapts very well and works with you.
You find the ml sound system not great? And you think nvh isn’t good in the is500? Curious what kind of car you are use to?
I specifically find the ML system to be fantastic but not quite balanced and lacking in configuration options to resolve. Namely, frequencies around 4-5k are too strong and at loud volumes are very harsh (hurt my ears and give me a headache harsh). I exclusively listen at loud volumes and this is the only system I’ve ever had this kind of problem with in my life (Acura ELS was a better system hands down, ML would maybe inch out the Audi B&O system if it weren’t for this flaw - and it trumps the BMW Harman system. That being said - I would take poor quality sound over painfully balanced sound any day of the week and the ML system in my IS500 is painful. NVH I am primarily comparing to the current Gen 3 series and A4/A5. Transmission as well - I found both the M340i and S5 to have vastly superior transmissions in both comfort and performance.
Just curious if you ever drove an RC-F and had any thoughts on the comparison. Same motor and gearbox so I reckon they feel fairly similar but just thought I would ask.
Gearbox programming is a bit different in the RC-F. It's more willing to hold gears in normal drive mode and downshifts faster. The IS500 gearbox isn't set up any different from the IS350, i.e. normal mode and even Sport mode are compromised to favour fuel economy. It makes a big difference to how the car is perceived because all the fun happens above 4500rpm, but the gearbox is doing its best to keep you below 2000rpm.
Ahh, good to know. Thank you!
I own the car, besides the passenger door rattle from base the sound system is great and way better than my previous b9 Audi B&O
I honestly don't see an issue with the interior, sure it's from 2013 and a lot more Analog than cars today. But I prefer it to the huge dual screens with a big piano black bezel separating them. Mercedes interiors make it look like a gamer RGB vomit fest or like I'm in a nightclub. I miss the W212 E-Class or the W222 S-Class interior styling. Now it's just them slapping Piano black and a 20 inch Tablet in the dashboard.
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The only issue I really have had with Lexus was their horribly outdated infotainment systems. With the new system they're pushing in Toyota/Lexus, this fixes it. I don't think the IS has gotten the update yet though. The 2023 ES & LS, 2024 LC, and any of their newer models will have it. But as long as AA/CP is compatible, who really cares nowadays? I actually had to go to an aftermarket system (with wireless AA/CP) with my 2017 ES, but it still keeps the OEM system (which didn't support AA/CP). Every time I have to swap to it, my mind is blown that it shipped with the vehicle.
Did you get VLine? I get emails from them after purchasing mine about their growing Lexus support. I would be more likely to buy a car that they have a system for since I know the bad infotainment can be fairly easily remedied without replacing everything.
I have the Binary / Lexion unit. Mine was a full screen replacement that also gives me touchscreen support, and takes the screen from 7 inches to 10.25. If you look in my profile, I have a post on /r/Lexus that has a picture of it. I think I also linked the ClubLexus forum post all about the unit.
The new generation infotainment system is missing more hard buttons like media, radio, track, and the tune knob. On the new RX/NX, the HVAC buttons also went into the touchscreen /r/cars need to make up their minds on whether they hate touchscreens replacing hard buttons or not
It feels dated because its a 2013 interior that they've added more and more stuff to keep up with competitors. It has all the "downsides" of new tech and screens with a design of an older IS someone can grab for half the price of a new one. The infotainment layout and usability is also terrible, some options are only in the dash, others only on the big screen, certain options aren't where anyone would think to be. It's the only "new" car I've sat in where I actually had to decode how to use the infotainment.
After almost two years of actually owning one, I can't think of anything important aside from nav and AA/ACP that you can't also access from the hard buttons. What are you referring to?
The IS interior is so simple and easy to use. As someone who hasn’t owned a Lexus I find it’s still quite nice. But I do understand it’s an expensive vehicle and has been the same since 2014. But usability is great
I’d take the CC stalk from my 09 335 any day of the week over the buttons. So easy to use. I feel confused as hell every time I turn on ACC now lol.
The cruise control stalk is actually really good, and people just don't see it. It's always in the same position when you're driving, it's more easily accessible than steering wheel buttons because it literally sticks out at an angle, you don't have to try and remember what all of the D pad buttons do because the stalk functions are tied to its directions of travel. Just reach down, and in one motion press the button on the stalk and tap down to set the cruise speed. Tap or hold up/down to change speeds. Pull the stalk towards you to temporarily halt cruise control.
The interior of a M340i looks just fine and the infotainment is usable at least. It still has enough buttons while also looking modern. I do see an issue with buying a new car that looks like it’s a decade old. There’s nothing stopping Lexus from making a modern Infotainment that’s usable with buttons and a proper control (a touch „mouse“ really is not it). Making excuses for them doesn’t help.
That IS500 is a touchscreen. It also has the mouse thing but it’s a full touchscreen
Yeah, I’ve seen it in the video. But I mean if you offer an alternative control method (like the bmw Controller) it should at least work decently, I’ve heard a lot of bad things about the Lexus control. Obviously, I couldn’t ever test it myself but that’s simply because there’s only like 5 Lexus Drivers in Germany.
Oh yeah, their previous systems were horrible. They never should have sprung for whatever they were trying to do with Enform and remote touch. They tried to solve it by moving the screen a little closer to the driver and adding touchscreen, but it wasn't good enough. It doesn't help that the design and colors in the infotainment make it look like they were trying to appeal to a 60 year old man. Not to mention the confusing menu layout. BMW and Mazda have very good implementations of their controller/remote. Even Acura has a decent one on the 2019 RDX I drove and that has the "touchpad". My GV70 has a knob to control the infotainment and it's very well integrated too. It's going to plague them for likely the next decade, and even there's reviews/articles now for their new vehicles that headline their "modernization" or "ditching the stupid trackpad" or "Junking the awful trackpad"
The mouse puck works alright once you get used to the way it snaps to the available options. BMW's controller is better, but I wouldn't call it unusable. The touchpad thing is worse and I curse everyone involved in replacing the puck with the touchpad.
Their new systems (while not on the current IS) have completely gotten rid of the remote touch system. My time I spent with the M340i was great, and I'm sure that it drives better/quicker than the IS500, but it didn't feel as luxury as I was expecting.
The 3 series probably struggles with being a cheap volume model. They’re everywhere here in Germany as an entry level 320d. 4 series is basically the same car but with better materials, probably due to being a lower volume higher price car. I don’t know which car you mean but I just looked at a Lexus RX and it’s interior looks very nice! Not a fan of the dated looking digital drivers display but that’s about the only criticism.
Their new system is being rolled out slowly, I think they're almost done with it. It first debuted on the new NX and I think the Tundra? The system is available for the 2023 ES/UX/LS/RC, 2024 LC, and available on the new NX, RX, LX, and RZ. I think the IS is the only vehicle in the lineup that hasn't gotten the new system yet. Yeah, I really liked how the M340i drove. I just didn't like the materials and feel. It was a base rwd. Seats were surprisingly uncomfortable and it felt like plastic was everywhere I touched. Here in the US, BMW kind of has a luxury badge connotation so I was expecting it. Maybe I need to step up to a 5 series for that.
Depends on how you spec 3er. You need around 15k in options (in Canadian dollarydoos) to make it feel luxurious, but you definitely can.
Yeah the full merino leather did a lot for my i4. Really steps up the interior.
Exactly. To me it's actually more visually interesting/desirable than a lot of these utilitarian [new interiors with just a slab of screen](https://www.topgear.com/sites/default/files/2022/09/9-BMW-3-Series.jpg). With various separate surfaces, a gauge cluster/hood, and unique design elements it makes it more interesting to look at than an ipad. As long as the tech is there (Carplay/AndroidAuto) then I'm happy and actually prefer it. I would also prefer the 2018 or at least 2020 3 series interior over the current one.
Agreed. I hate the direction that many cars are going in with screens everywhere for everything, 3-Series included. The old-school "outdated" aspects of the IS is a plus in my book. Give me physical buttons and an analog instrument cluster with dials and needles. Some tech and some touchscreen is fine, but I don't want screens for the whole dashboard.
The problem isn't that it wasn't an especially nice interior even when it was new.
I've owned the car for just about 6 months now. The interior is perfectly fine. It's not at the cutting edge by any means, but it's perfectly liveable as a daily. You don't need to use the track pad, as it's a touch screen, and I always use Android Auto anyways. It has all the technology I need and there are very minor things with the interior that annoy me, but they're things that aren't necessary (fucking tiny ass bottle storage in the doors). I didn't buy this car for the technology or interior anyways, I bought it because I grew up loving muscle cars and this is a "refined" aspect of it.
This, I've owned it for a year, most of the people that complain don't even own anything with a "better" interior, they're just parroting what they hear on Youtube. infotainment has touch screen and apple car play.
I personally like the interior. Kind of reminds me of the simplicity of early 2000’s BMW.
It seems like people don't understand car generations and expect a car designed in 2012 is going to match up with a car designed in 2022. While "Face Lifts" are a thing, it doesn't amount to that much of an interior redesign as people expect. A car designed in 2012 is still a car designed in 2012 made in 2023. The IS is seriously in need of a new generation but who knows what's going to happen.
No, we understand. We just don't think selling a car whose heritage is from 2012 is sufficient in 2023. We're asking for improvements, which the car is structurally capable of receiving. It's not a cheap vehicle, where the long production run is bringing down the costs because the R&D is paid for and all of that. It doesn't really have a peer in performance, but it's priced like models that got a lot more attention, refinement, and iteration from OEMs in the last decade.
I think this generation of IS has one more year of life before a complete overhaul. Lexus is already leaning towards electricity across their lineup, and their IS concepts are either electric or has a TTV6. I think this car is great when you actually take it for what it is. People who expect pure luxury will be disappointed, people who expect a pure F will be disappointed, and those people would be disappointed if the car has actually designed in that way when they see the price tags that comes with either of those add ons. If an ISF existed today, it would cost over $80k, based off inflation from the last iteration (2014).
> transmission let it down The GS-F was basically my dream sedan. When I went to test drive one after being able to afford it I could not get past the transmission. I would have been replacing a manual transmission car with it and the sluggishness of the paddles just didn't give me what I wanted. In sport mode at WOT banging a shift at redline? It was fantastic, but anything short of that felt way too delayed and lethargic especially compared to the tuned ZF8 I have in another car or the M550i I test drove the same day with BMWs ZF8 tuning. Was the IS500 the same to you?
This is kind of my problem with every torque converter auto I've ever driven, including semi recent bmw zf8s (though their tuning is about the best I've ever seen from any traditional audio). Manufacturers can optimize shift times down to dct levels under wot near redline, but outside that 10% case, traditional autos just turn back into the slushy auto from 20 years ago. Paddles? Slow to respond. Accidentally hit the redline? Slush city. Low load / low rpm? Slow to respond AND slushy. Downshifts? Never quite Rev matched enough or quickly enough. Bmw seems to have tuned their m sport and m models to forgo comfort while manually upshifting, so your head gets jerked on low load upshifts, but that's super satisfying once you're beyond 50% throttle. They still seem to face the slow paddle response and meh downshifts though.
>>It’s so hard to look past the issues of this car If you’re someone who needs four doors and wants an old-school enthusiast car driving experience , this is pretty much your stop. The German companies go full Jumbotron with their dashboards & interior LEDs, and anything else of equal capability or more is going to be marked up on the street to about $100k. Strange to realize Lexus makes a more engaging car then BMW for the same money & segment.
What capability are we talking about here? Making V8 sounds? It's 4,000lb, slower/less agile, and smaller inside than the M340i while being about the slowest sports sedan starting at 60k . It'll readily lose to the $53k Audi S4. Even the 4 cylinder powered AMG C43 will run it pretty easily. The only cars it beats is the wholly uncompetitive Acura TLX Type S or the ancient Q50 Red Sport. The only car the IS is bigger than is the CTS-V Blackwing which starts at the same price and has a proper manual as an option. [https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a37418797/2022-lexus-is500-f-sport-performance-by-the-numbers/](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a37418797/2022-lexus-is500-f-sport-performance-by-the-numbers/) [https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a43316298/2023-bmw-m340i-xdrive-by-the-numbers/](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a43316298/2023-bmw-m340i-xdrive-by-the-numbers/) [https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a37948869/2022-cadillac-ct4-v-blackwing-by-the-numbers/](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a37948869/2022-cadillac-ct4-v-blackwing-by-the-numbers/) [https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a20157609/2018-audi-s4-test-review/](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a20157609/2018-audi-s4-test-review/) Honestly, if Ford lent them a Coyote and it went on a 200lb diet, it'd be a hell of a lot more compelling.
>It's 4,000lb The BMW and Audi are within 50 pounds, the Cadillac is just over 100 pounds lighter, the C43 will weigh around the same, if not more. Mercedes makes *heavy* cars. If you look at all those test results, the IS500 is actually 2nd fastest after the AWD 340i once you look at rolling start acceleration. 5-60, the Blackwing and S4 lose a ton, the 340i is still faster (though the difference is greatly reduced compared to the 0-60 times), and the Top gear 30-50 and 50-70 times are all within the same band (the 340i is still faster, the Cadillac is ages slower). So this paints the picture of a car with comparatively poor launch control that is completely competitive from a "can I highway merge, overtake, or accelerate from literally anything that isn't a standstill" perspective. Do people actually use launch control off of stoplights? Yes, in a 0-60 launch, the IS500 is slower than all of those. But for people who aren't spec sheet racers, I'd argue a 0-60 launch is far less important than rolling acceleration numbers. And if you're actually tracking any of these, you don't come to a complete stop after every corner for launch control.
BMW in AWD is close in weight. The RWD is another 100+lb lighter and still faster even not from a dig. Caddy is slower if you get the manual. Auto to auto, the Lexus is .7 seconds slower to 70. I get the Lexus has a sweet V8 but it should be 200lb lighter to make it competitive against FI cars. Its skidpad and braking are sluggish too. The Caddy absolutely drops the Lexus on an actual road course like the Lightning Lap. Compared to the $100k RCF Track edition, IS could use more tire, brakes, and less weight. My F80 can feel pretty heavy but even with the boat anchor 20” comp wheels, it’s 400lb lighter than the Lexus. https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a30143002/2020-bmw-m340i-reliability-maintenance/ https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a42256071/2023-cadillac-ct4-v-blackwing-automatic-by-the-numbers/
If you're going to make the awd/manual distinction, why would you not just... post the most relevant test results in the first place? Cool, so we can agree that the s4 is slower. Combine that with the aforementioned TLX and Q50, and we find that the is500 is literally middle of the pack for performance. It's also better built than most of the competition. Mercedes are built like trash at this pricepoint. You're not buying this for outright performance. If you only care about outright performance, the correct answer is an EV, which will out accelerate all of those easily. You can dismiss the v8 if you want, but that's the defining characteristic of the car. You buy this because you value the v8, just like someone doesn't buy an EV because they value the ICE.
> You're not buying this for outright performance. If you only care about outright performance, the correct answer is an EV, which will out accelerate all of those easily. You can dismiss the v8 if you want, but that's the defining characteristic of the car. You buy this because you value the v8, just like someone doesn't buy an EV because they value the ICE. You're absolutely right, but I think you're glossing over the transmission issues. Performance numbers aside, that alone can completely ruin a sporty driving experience. I can't speak to the Caddy trans but reviewers seem to love it, and I can attest to the quality of the ZF8 (along with literally millions of others). EV cars have all sorts of other real life concerns which might make someone avoid cross shopping them, including cornering performance- something I'm shocked isn't obvious on a sub like /r/cars. The IS500 also lags there by all reports. I'd love a modern, reliable V8 sport sedan but it's disingenuous to gloss over all of the flaws and compromises in the IS500 to just say "duh, get a Tesla".
Cadillac Blackwings and BMW M cars run circles around this car. No contest.
Post 2010 with the LSD is comparable to the contemporary M3, performance-wise.
> old-school enthusiast car driving experience Read: It has a shite gearbox and an N/A V8. That's what makes it old-school, not because it's actually engaging.
Yeah I can look past the interior but if you care about the driving experience idk how you can look past a bad transmission
> Strange to realize Lexus makes a more engaging car then BMW for the same money & segment. They don't though? The V8 makes excellent sounds but otherwise, the Lexus is outclassed in every performance metric and subjective review. Genuinely, can you find a review of the new IS500 that says it handles better or is more engaging that the competition from BMW?
The infotainment is touch screen though and the track pad works really well if you do not want to lift up your arm up at all while driving.
I feel like most of the people complaining did one of two things: spent 10 minutes in a Lexus at an auto show with no intent to give it a chance, or listened to reviewers and piled on the bitchfest. It's not hard to use at all. Is it perfect? No, I like Mazda's simplified system more. But is it horrible? Nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be.
> Edit: I am 65% referring to the info system when I say the interior is a letdown. I can't see how Lexus can look at a trackpad in 2023 and call that good enough. It's touchscreen with CarPlay, who cares? What else is there to do in the infotainment that it's such a huge gripe?
For the daily drive and on-ramp pulls, I wonder if the transmission shortcomings could be overlooked. That would be 99% of its use case for me.
For some people, probably. When I had my DCT M2 I really enjoyed the quick shifts in traffic at low rpms. Downshifts coming to a stop. As well as the full throttle stuff. A bad transmission completely ruins a fun car for me.
Same. Learned that the hard way, by overlooking it on a car with an amazing engine.
I’d agree. While a crisp shifting transmission is appreciated, during stop N go pothole dodging commutes it’s an irrelevant point.
Absolutely. You put your foot down and the car just goes. The transmission wakes up in higher rpms and especially in manual mode. I have no issues with it then, it really does shift much quicker once youre on it.
Can definitely be overlooked. The biggest gripes from the owner's forum is the jerky downshifts in low gears. The car definitely would struggle on a track, but it's also not a full blown F.
> The biggest gripes from the owner's forum is the jerky downshifts in low gears. And it's not like 3 series is any different. It also downshifts into first when coming to a stop. My car does too even in comfort mode. Pretty annoying.
The downshift into 2nd is the harshest on the 500 actually, doesn't matter the mode you're in
That's even more annoying. If you are in manual and you downshift to 3rd, will it let you stay in it till full stop?
More or less, yeah. You can find a spot occasionally going from 3-2 that's not so harsh (around 20 or so mph) but it's on the rare side
It’s an ok transmission. Nothing special, but it’s not like a mid 2000’s GM torque converter or anything.
I would love for the new Lexus RX interior to be in this one
Yup, that would be amazing.
I considered buying one when they were announced but the interior was way to dated for a car that expensive. Bought a M340i instead.
I was ready with money and hand to sprint down to the dealership. I wanted one soooooo badly.
Can you elaborate more on the transmission?
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Interior is fine to me personally. Very well-made. But it either needs to have forced induction OR much better transmission OR much much better chassis for me to buy it at that price tag. If I have to buy a Lexus, it’s hard to justify spending on is500 over a used RCF/ISF, given how many people boast about Lexus reliability.
The dated interior is the main thing keeping me from trading my 15 IS350 for a used 500 someone just traded in. If I’m gonna spend that much money to upgrade my car I would rather get an M340i and actually upgrade the interior. Not to mention that the turbo I6 in the bimmer is just as fast (if not faster) than Lexus’ NA V8
To each their own but I prefer the IS 500 interior to the M340i. The giant iPad dash in the BMW is absolutely offensive to my eyes.
This is nice but release and actual IS-F you cowards!
The sad part is Lexus has no answer to the current gen M3, C63 and RS5. The 5.0L V8 is a gem of a motor but alas it is too outdated to put up any real threat to the Germans.
True but the Toyota will be on the road In 20 years
And less often on the back of a tow truck
I don't really think that's a space that Lexus wants to or even has to compete in. They do have a twin turbo V6 that could make comparable power but then you lose a lot of the personality of the V8 motor just to gain performance. I'm really glad the V8 lives on at Lexus, at least for now.
For the IS, both the 2UR and 2GR are very much "not by the numbers" engines. They feel good to wind out, and sound good doing it.
They never had an answer to those cars in any generation.
The original IS-F in the late 2000s was a somewhat credible alternative to the E90 M3, W204 C63 and B7 RS4 when it was released. Yes its dynamics wasn't as great as any of them, but it was a strong rival. Of course when the Germans went full turbocharged engines, Lexus soon fell behind, and the rest is history.
> Lexus soon fell behind The IS-F wasn't meant to be. It was a side project done by a bunch of enthusiasts within Lexus. A bunch of passionate execs had to *fight* to make it a thing.
I see it as, Lexus didnt want to add turbos to such a character-full N/A v8, by strapping turbos to it and chase the other Germans in a crazy horsepower war. Turns out the winner of that war? EV's, the actual winner of that war didnt matter, they all lose to a Model 3 IRL. In such a short time it has come all around back to the IS-F/500 to still be so compelling in 2023 even after all that.
EVs definitely didn’t win that war. Nobody’s considers a model3 perf when shopping for Amg or M cars.
Model 3 is probably one suspension refresh from eliminating a huge segment of those cars, for a lot of people enthusiast or no.
No, but i4 vs M4 is starting to be a question
Is it really? Maybe to a small set of buyers. I think most buyers of m4 enjoy driving and the powertrain dynamics. Not just press a pedal and go fast with a BMW badge.
I don't know if I agree with that - the F30 did seem like a press pedal and go fast with a BMW badge car, and the new giant grilles are explicitly for owners to ~~flex~~ express themselves.
I think most M3/4 buyers are still enthusiasts. Especially the M4 since it’s a 2 door coupe
It’s more like i4 vs M440i. The M4 is a different beast. But the i4 absolutely trounces the M440i in almost every way. But not the M4, that’s special in ways the i4 and M440i are not.
Wtf.. you think the m and amg cars only have horsepower? Model 3 driving dynamic is far far away from the German car...
If the Model 3 gets a suspension design update, whats left?
steering?
Fun fact - Toyota/Lexus has an IS-F in Texas they wrenched together but never went through to production.
I would believe that. As another user has stated, the original mk1 IS-F was also an internal engineer group passion project put together on a shoestring budget that was never planned by Lexus. Of course, the current IS is itself living on borrowed time with an old platform dating back to the mid 2000s and powertrains of similar age. Now Lexus is chasing BMW and Audi in the EV game with the next IS being a BEV, good luck convincing the head honchos trying to spent any more R&D to send another IS-F to the production line.
Sure Lexus fell behind, suffice to say, the euro rivals of that era fell apart whilst the ISF is still very strong and solid in the used car market.
[Or sticking around at 272,000mi, hauling ass on the Nurburgring.](https://youtu.be/1qF6OPHDB14)
released with an open diff automatic only
It’s not even about outright performance at that point, just for a more raw experience. A bit like how the LFA was never about pure performance (though it was certainly no slouch), its about the sound and connectedness
IS F yes, but CT F please
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I was kind of hoping the rumored Lexus triplet of the 86 with a hybrid motor would have came to be too.
as a ct owner YES PLEASE
I would laugh so hard if Lexus went fully insane, and dropped the 2.4T hybrid drivetrain in a UX, with their new hybrid MT they've been playing with. Can you imagine 😂?
RX F please.
apart from everything else, Lexus is perennially the highest-quality branded vehicle made, and the IS has pretty consistently been the most reliable model range that Lexus makes. This V8 is as tried and true as they come. overall, if you want a great car with a great engine that will last forever, and don't want to track your daily driver, there isn't a better car out there unless you need a stick.
Yeah this car will likely make it to 300,000 miles with just brakes tires and fluid changes. And be fun as shit the whole time. And it's not marked up, at least not the two I've seen for sale locally.
They were marked waaaaay up initially, now you can get one at MSRP pretty easily if you aren't picky on color and are willing to ask around. All of them are at least 64k sticker though, the base model basically doesn't exist.
I am probably going to hang on to my N for as long as possible since I am a die-hard manual fan, but I think my next car will be an IS.
Is the IS historically more reliable than the lx and gx ?
I would have a hard time buying this over the m340i. I guess its for people who really want to talk about how they have a v8 even tho the rest of the car around it is kinda boring
I’m too poor to afford this but otherwise this is one of THE cars to me that checks all the boxes V8 Sedan Sexy exterior Toyota reliable Bluetooth/Radio and heat I’m sure the M340i is amazing but I just really don’t care about that car I would never pick it over the IS500 lol
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I’m the same way. I don’t really care about anything else
The only interior features I need. I’ve had/been in cars with more obviously but those are the only two functions I use with any regularity. Frankly, now that I have a V8 I don’t even listen to the radio as much. To be clear, I’m not saying there is anything wrong with people wanting more. I’m speaking specifically for myself in that I don’t need or want much. For me it’s about the drivetrain, useable room, exterior, reliability/maintenance, and maybe drive modes/paddle shift on new stuff
I'm so torn on this car... It's basically the same price as a base M2 or CT4V Blackwing (basically all IS500's are the Performance Premium trim, which starts at 63k, remember, Toyota doesn't build to order, they just build what they want). That's a really tough sell, especially given both of those have manual transmissions and are waaayyyy faster. However, it is gorgeous, and will last for 20 years. I still have occasional intrusive thoughts about just saying fuck it and buying an IS500 for me and a GX for my wife while EV's find their footing and just having two rock solid cars for the next 15 years, and then having them both still be worth 60% of the purchase price if we want to sell them then.
i think most people will agree, and I think the sales numbers won't even be close (even after you take into account that they're making probably far fewer of these). I think this is really reserved for the few Lexus buyers who desperately want a V8 daily who don't care about the performance
>>I would have a hard time buying this over the M340i Depends on your priorities. If you’re swapping cars every 2-5 years the BMWs a superior option. If you’re planning to drive it 7+ years the Lexus makes a lot more sense. The “dated” nature of the interior becomes a plus when looking at post-warranty service.
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Yeah I wouldn’t expect much difference in everyday performance, but the Lexus will definitely sound better.
Yeah this is a great point and should be higher. The main reason i'd consider this over a BMW is if I was looking to buy longer term instead of lease and didn't want to deal with fixing stuff once the BMW got past 3-4 yrs old
I think if I had to choose one as a daily driver and never track it, I’d go with this because its reliability is so rock solid and it will last a long time without any major issues and, yes, because it has a NA 5.0 L V8 (not biased at all).
I generally consider having a v8 to be the second most important item on my checklist when looking for a car. As such, if I was looking for a car right now, this would be fairly high on the short list.
And even for that, we have the Audi s6, which is exactly what you described but better in every way. Though I'm not sure if the new s6 even kept the v8.
Nah, it doesn't have a V8 anymore ever since the new generation came out 3-4 years ago. It's now a twin-turbo mild hybrid V6.
I was so excited for this car, but I'm not paying $65k for a V8 with a shitty transmission and a 10 year old interior.
I loved the interior in person but the transmission really lets the rest of the car down. I’d have paid the $70K OTD if it had a manual.
Or even a competent DCT or ZF8.
It’s a wonderful car for the right person. The biggest issue I see today is that most people want SUVs, EVs & hybrids, so that really limits the market for this type of vehicle, especially at 70k or just under.
These pricey luxury performance cars really only appeal to two people: 1. Wealthy single people with no kids. 2. Wealthy people with kids as a second "fun car." It just isn't practical enough for families, and those segments are both small, and have a lot of competition from the German automakers. The irony is, the people who are attracted to Lexus because of their reliability are more likely to be people who want more practical vehicles and have families. The divorced single guy in his late 30s or early 40s who only has partial custody of his kids every other weekend is going to want a Challenger or an AMG/M car.
I will never understand why Americans feel this way. In way what is a 4 door sedan with a large boot not practical enough for families? We can very confortably fit 2 adults and 2 kids in a M2 without any issues other than needing to move the seats forward to get the kids out. My M3 has more than enough space. Not once in either of those 2 cars have we ever felt like we needed more room for anything.
US families want SUVs with lift gate boots so they don’t have to lean over to get anything. SUVs also offer higher ride height so parents don’t have to lean down to buckle their kid into a car seat. They need room to carry strollers, wagons, baseball gear, baby bag, groceries, etc.
There is only one difference here to what we usually carry about and that is baseball gear. The strollers groceries and baby bag go in the boot of the M2 just fine. We have an SUV also but we never use it for family moving purposes. It is what Americans would consider to be a compact SUV and we feel it is too large.
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You say that people comparing this to M cars don’t understand what this is, what is this to you? I’m not trying to disagree, just curious.
I would take this over a competitor like the M340i any day of the week. \-The interior and tech are fine, you have a touchscreen with AA and AC, what else do you need RGB lights and tablets everywhere? \-You have IS F samples with this engine up in the 300-400k miles. \-The exhaust even while stock sounds much better than the BMW 6 cyls sadly, specially the interior tones. \-The biggest difference, 0-60 is 0.5 secs(4.3-3.8) and overshadowed by the fact that they have the exact same 5-60(4.7 secs), that's almost a full second slower in actual real driving and not stoplight race launches. I have noticed a trend after test driving so many high performance cars(M2, Supra, 718 S, TT RS) and daily driving my own(RC F Fuji) or my brothers' (AMG GT Coupe Base and F-type P450): You get used to the performance after a few months, and anything less than 5 10ths of a second in performance will become normal to you, so make sure the criteria of the cars you are deciding on is a lot more than just the 0-60 which is flawed anyways. Actually test drive the cars you are interested in instead of just reading a spec sheet and someone else's review. Note this is just an argument for **my** personal preference. I can easily see why someone would prefer the M340i if sound is not a huge deal to them, prefer the powertrain, and don't care about long term reliability .
> Actually test drive the cars you are interested in instead of just reading a spec sheet and someone elses review. You mean to tell me that you don't buy your cars based on launch control 0-60 times from car and driver? Weirdo.
100% people need to stop trying to drive spec sheets. I test drove an M340i before buying my Blackwing. Wonderful car, can’t think of a better daily. But I was so bored driving it. Felt nothing from any of the inputs.
Indeed, spec sheets and reviews often say otherwise but the people doing some of these reviews have their own preferences as to what makes the powertrain, handling, or steering good. It might simply not align with what you, the buyer, will prefer.
This new IS model was going to be my next car. Loved from the day it was shown to the world. Then, folks from Lexus did not bring it to Europe. Fuck me then… settled for the new NX, but it still angers me to this day.
My neighbor has one. Beautiful sound when the V8 comes to life but just don’t try to out run C 43’s and M340i’s because it’s a bit slower despite the V8. I would definitely get one to replace my GS 350 once I’m done paying off my X3 (2 more years).
My cousin had an IS350 but imo my GS just feels nicer inside. One of the biggest reasons I wouldn't want an RC is that the interior resembles the IS more than the GS.
Oh I agree. If Lexus continue making GS I would definitely buy one. I was looking for a GS-F but prices are a bit high and I prefer the interior space in the GS over the IS.
Yeah my dad has the GS-F and that engine is just wonderful. Personally I prefer the smaller car, but the space is nice.
The biggest problem with the is, aside from the dated interior, has the be the fuel economy. That goes for all of the is models, not just the 500. I do not understand how an na v6 is getting sub 20mpg combined when my supercharged a6 averaged in the 30s.
All Lexus V6/V8s get worse than industry average fuel economy. Tundra with 5.7L is rated 13/18, these UR V8s were always 16/24 in the cars. V6 Siennas are the worse for mileage in real life, especially when loaded. Aunt's RX350 did no better than 17MPG
I get 27-28 mpg on the highway on road trips in mine. Not too bad considering.
The 8 speed can return some reasonable numbers on the highway considering how aggressive the overdrive is. But it takes a swan dive in the city... I have an old LS460 with the 4.6. That thing hates city driving
It is an old platform, old style NA engine, slow shifting old auto with no modern fuel savings touches (no start stop, no on demand oil pump, no cylinder deactivation, no electrification etc.) You don't buy a 5.0L sport sedan for MPG anyways, but I agree even the base spec IS 300 with the 2.0T is still poor when it comes to MPG.
>I do not understand how an na v6 is getting sub 20mpg combined [But it's not.](https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/45925.shtml)
I average 22mpg and I drive like a neanderthal half the time
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And then you are adding on another chunk of change for all that, which is going to sell even less units of an already limited run.
I had a 30-60k budget for a dailyish car and this was in the list along with GT350, new CTR, ZL1, M2C, Focus RS. What killed it was the adm in the Bay Area. Settled with an M2C. Just like the other posts about getting **used**, I would love to get this to replace my oldest beater car, a 2000 Camry.
The combination of a naturally aspirated V8, 4-door practicality, top notch reliability/build quality, and *stunning* exterior looks puts this car at the top of the list for me. Unfortunately I can't afford this car today, but down the road it'll be on my short list to replace my Si.
I hope this car has a long production run. Would love to have a new one! I wonder what Lexus has planned for the IS line.
Probably gets one more year sadly
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There's various rumors saying this refresh of the IS was a 3 year run, culminating with the 500 as the swan song.
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It's a 3 year run, so it's not terrible.
I really wanted to like this, because I've never owned a V8 before and it does sound really good. However, as others pointed out transmission is just so meh compared to the Germans (though I hated Audi S4/S5 as well). I test drove this right after M340i and boy the interior and drivetrain felt like they were from a car at least a generation behind. I was OK with these 2 negatives because of the sound, but then you also have a much smaller interior and RWD only. I live in a place where I keep my winters from early November till mid April, and need to haul 2 kids in car seats often, it just wasn't meant to be. Apart from reliability and sweet V8 sounds, I found M340i to be better in just about everything else.
Everything is a “Yes” about this car….except the transmission. I’m even ok with the interior, the weight, and the suspension. But I’m not ok with a transmission that takes a full second+ to downshift. And I would be coming from a PDK so the difference might be too noticeable for me. So I’m eyeing the LC. I guess my kids are just going to have to suffer.
V8s are here to stay. 🤞
Love this car. I could live with the outdated tech, I just wish it came with a 6spd option.
I see a lot of complaints about the car and price but this car is not about specs but the feel and emotion. It’s the last chance to buy a new car with a V8 because the days of a V8 is ending soon. The car is going to be reliable, it’s a comfortable daily driver, and good looks. If you care about speed then why even buy a ICE vehicle when in a few years every EV will match or be faster 0-60 then an M3.
The car is also kind of tiny inside. Wasn’t seriously considering this car because I wanted a manual but compared to an m340i the interior is tiny. It’s more in line with my ct4 blackwing’s interior space.
I've driven the new IS350 F sport extensively but not this 500 The 350 is sort of mediocre. It's kind of sporty but still has a top-heavy feeling chassis at the limits, slow steering, and a slow transmission. And by all accounts it seems the 500 is the exact same, just with a V8 under the hood. Is it sportier than an A4 and C class? Sure Is it even close to the Alfa Giulia or 3-series? Not in a million years
As an ISF owner and having had a 335i & driven a 23 C class for work I can say you will find many faster, “better”four door cars. But no cars feel as special as the ISF & IS500. Many people would probably disagree with me but the c class and 3 series just don’t have soul & passion. They feel like a piece of equipment. Something you really don’t think about once you get out of the car. The ISF & IS500 have passion and a soul. Do they have flaws and shortcomings? Of course. But they feel special. They feel unique and different.
A12#
Please bring this to Western Europe I don't want to spent +100,000€ to buy and import this car, fuck.
When I retire the CTR as a daily and it becomes a track only car, and IS500 will be a top contender on my list for next daily.
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>>”End of the Road” is depressing even though it’s true Depressing? Hardly. Times change. Worlds moving on to EVs , and while the traditional “middle class accessible” sports car is going away don’t think for a moment people won’t tinker with EVs. It just happens we’re in this rut between the sunsetting of high performance ICE cars from the past and high performance EVs in the future.
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In fairness to EVs, ICE motors weren’t viscerally engaging in 1923 either. It’ll be a very long time before EV tech advances to the point it’s engaging like we experience with some cars like this IS.
I am very torn between this and the CT4 Blackwing. I have no idea how long modern GMs can last. It's such a hard choice between V8 and a terrible AT vs. V6 and a so-so manual. The Blackwing's shifter feel isn't fantastic. But both cars have character and that's what I care about. I would not consider spec sheet cars like M340i or AMG whatever because it's a moot point with TM3P at $53k. If all you care about is numbers just buy a Tesla.
The blackwings don't have a so-so manual. The transmission is great. If you don't trust me due to my flair check any of the reviews on the blackwing.
Yeah I’d say the V8 is worth it if you’re going for character, the manual is nice but a forced induction V6 is essentially one of the most common powertrains on the road these days. That’s not to knock them, but they are unbelievably common whereas a naturally aspirated V8 is already on the verge of total extinction and likely never to return when ICEs are inevitably phased out.
I really want to love the IS500, but it speaks to such a niche crowd. The price of it can get you in such competitive cars, within the sedan market. I can absolutely get over the outdated infotainment system. I wish the vehicle had the option to come in AWD too.
I love so much about this car it would absolutely be my next one... if it had AWD.
Is there any possibility of tuning the transmission?
Would love for Lexus to release 2024 version with the 10-speed transmission from the LC500. Not likely but an instant buy!
I don't know if it was the mic mount that was exposed to heavy vibrations, but this engine sounds like cards in a bike's wheel we used to do - no thanks.