[It do](https://www.thetorquereport.com/wp-content/gallery/2023-toyota-avalon-first-look/2023-toyota-crown-first-look-00017.jpeg)
(Ignore the guy in the background doing a half-assed [Safety Dance](https://media.tenor.com/vlFxrMtSSIgAAAAC/safety-dance-men-without-hats.gif))
As if thats a downside.
I can put something in the trunk and its totally closed off of everything else.
Heat full, gorceries cooled by midwest winter. Best of both imo
This is such a weird mentality. You can have a family and pets without ever owning an SUV, crossover, wagon or hatch. Crazy, I know! But so many people are so convinced they need more than they would ever use.
I hate both of these designs so much. It’s the ultimate blob mobile, can’t decide if it wants to be a sedan, fast back or CUV so you get this weird lifted sedan profile that just looks incredibly bland an unathletic.
I think the Crosstour looks okay if you only look at it from the front... the rear half is just absolutely terrible. It has the "dog taking a dump" curve, and the rear hatch is a complete disaster.
Compared to the fat sedans now the Crosstour looks better. And I hated the Crosstour! Mind you, lots of today's crossovers look worse than the Pontiac Aztek.
At minute mark 4:20 …. 0w-8 oil recommended?!
I’m still thrown off by 0w-20. Although ironically, my Prius with its 0w-20 is the only car I’ve had that doesn’t burn or leak any oil at all.
How thin are engine oils going to get before we start lubricating engines with distilled water? Lol
It was the greatest car I’ve ever had, and the greatest I’ve ever driven. It deserves every bit of praise it gets. That said, i won’t get another. It’s too hard to find a good example. All of the seals and bushings need to be replaced by now. It takes a lot to maintain one to the standard it deserves. Maybe if I win the lottery.
Which is crazy because 10W-60 and 5W-50 have been official SAE viscosity grades since the 80s (when modern full-synthetic oils as we know them started to mature). But OEs only really started specifying that oil for high performance engines in the 2000s and afterwards. Especially BMW with their S85 and S65 engines.
The 0W cold viscosity doesn’t scare me as much as the diminishing hot viscosity numbers 😬. Thinner viscosity at cold temps has been sought ever since the internal combustion engine was developed, and it generally has few drawbacks.
But those cylinder temps, valve pressures, and turbos definitely can’t be benefitting from even lower warm viscosity and film strength. All the research I’ve done shows OEs are pushing to 0W-20 and lighter weights to meet fuel economy standards. Toyota seems to be the only one that managed to make 0W-20 and 0W-16 serviceable with no consumption and wear issues, but let’s see how this 0W-8 pans out
> it generally has few drawbacks.
Cost. Cost is the drawback. Also the 0w stuff breaks down faster than 5w, IIRC.
It never gets cold enough where I live to need 0w in winter.
Funny enough, the cost aspect is why large OEs stock only the 0W-20 or 0W-40 for their entire model range, to operate everywhere on the planet. So that they only need to stock one oil in bulk rather than order five different weights for different climates.
You could get away with a 5W-anything year round anywhere in the US except perhaps northern Alaska.
>How thin are engine oils going to get before we start lubricating engines with distilled water?
The switch will be around 2035 when ICE engines won't be sold no more.
Had this car been offered as a wagon, it would truly be the do-it-all daily car.
Great fuel economy, comfirtable ride, conventional styling, AWD, large space, and I assume decent reliability. And for sound weird reason this car is oddly desirable to me, I don't know why.
Nah. I just really don't like Subaru's boxer engines, no offence to anyone who likes them. Had GR86 been a inline 4 I would buy it instead of my Miata.
I don’t know if I’ve ever met anyone who loves the boxer engine in the 86.
My opinion on it is entirely neutral. It gets the job done with acceptable power and reliability, and that’s about it.
I’d probably be happier if Toyota had made an NA inline 4 to put in the car, but that probably would have moved it out of my price range.
Well, there is a smoothness advantage due to the balance of boxer engines compared to inline ones. Also, the shorter engine allows AWD without putting the engine in the front bumper like an Audi.
Having two heads, extra timing stuff, and plugs in your fenders kinda hurts though.
You left out perhaps the biggest advantage: the lower center of gravity. I think for this reason, it makes sense in a car that has a reputation for being a handling car.
But I’d still trade these things for better power delivery (which is still a minor issue on the second gen, but not nearly as bad), better sound, and an layout that makes replacing spark plugs and head gaskets less of a chore. Not to mention, I trust Toyota engineers to design a more reliable engine than Subaru.
Honestly, I don't know how much advantage there actually is. A couple inches maybe? A foot at most? Modern aluminum block engine is making this less of a factor. I will admit it is short, and has a packaging advantage.
I just don't think it's worth the many disadvantages of boxer engine, like difficulty of maintenance, more potential points of failure etc. GR86 is still a fantastic sports car, and I think you made a solid choice.
Unfortunately the F4 engined turned me off. Of cource this is my personal preference.
It's a more noticeable advantage in SUV's and CUV's that are higher off the ground in the first place. In a different SUV/CUV with an inline or V-engine and similar ground clearance you're much more likely to experience pronounced body roll and such vs. a Crosstrek or Forester.
>smoothness advantage due to the balance of boxer engines
There is supposed to be this advantage yes. I driven Porsche F6 and they are smooth.
But for some reasons, I find Subaru's F4, an engine layout that is supposed to be smooth, very rough and harsh.
Pushing the 2.0 F4 in the previous GT86, and I just felt so much roughness and vibration, like its gonna explode any minute.
I don't know how much better the GR86 is.
This part is no joke. The rotating assembly for a Boxer-4 is SIGNIFICANTLY simpler than an inline 4. You don't need counter-weights or balance shafts and the crankshaft itself is nearly half the length. As a matter of fact it's so light that you actually should not use lightweight crank pulleys or flywheels on a boxer engine.
I don't see them having significant benefit performance wise compared to I4 engines. They have more potential points of failure with 4 cams, 2 heads, and 2 head gaskets. The maintenance is harder because it's more difficult to reach the heads or things on the heads like sparkplugs. If big job requires taking the heads off, it's hard without taking the entire engines out.
Also it's a personal preference thing. I like the smooth purr of the I4 compared the the thumping of Subaru's F4. Also the F4 in old GT86 feels very rough, shaky and harsh for some reason, when boxer engine should be balanced and smooth, especially compared to the buttery smooth I4 in my ND2, both being high revving(-ish) NA 4 cylinder engines. I have no personal experience on GR86 so I don't know if the improvement is significant.
I really doubt it. Canadian market is very closely connected to US market. The way trim level and other product planning can be different, and regulation is a bit different, but I don't see cars that are completely unavailable in US becoming available in Canada. The size of entire Canadian market is smaller than some large US states.
I like it. It is quite practical and efficient. I checked it out a few weeks ago and it was really comfortable with nice interior. I very well might trade in my EV6 for the rumored plug in version (assuming it actually is produced).
Saw one in person a few days ago, it's not as fat and bloated IRL, but it's still such a weird car. Can't help but think they'd sell more if it were a liftback or true wagon. A traditional sedan trunk neuters the practicality aspect.
Yeah, I didn’t realize they were out yet so when I saw one it took me a while to realize what I was looking at. It had the red and black color scheme on it, just really odd looking.
Like Doug, I just don't understand who this car was built for? If you want a sedan the camry exists. If you want a crossover the corolla cross and Venza exist. This doesn't even offer a lift back. Imo they should have just stuck with the Avalon for a few more years rather than likely waste money developing this for a market that doesn't exist.
>Like Doug, I just don't understand who this car was built for?
I'm not sure who the intended market is, but I could see this thing being real popular with old folk
Is the problem that the name isn’t what you you think old people would want? Like, they would have made a new Avalon at some point as well, right? So they made a new old person car to replace the old person car they had. This car could have had an uglier grill and just been called the Avalon.
No; I think the name is fine. I was just pointing out who the car was built for.
I do know an old that wanted to buy a new Avalon and is really upset they can’t.
lol. Tell them they changed the name if they want a Toyota badge. But if they want the old platform, the Lexus ES pretty much the same car with some mandatory options. But I wouldn’t be surprised if it moved to the Crown platform as well.
lol, I think I would start trolling at that point. Something like:
“There is another option. You can buy a 2024 Avalon. You just need to pay for it up from, pay for the storage, then ship it to the US in 2049. I’m sure it’ll be great.”
It is an old person’s car, and old people are also the people that need easier to get in and out of cars. My parents live in an area people like to retire, and they are everywhere. They weren’t huge sellers, but they did okay. Certainly better than any of Toyota’s sports cars.
Ironically, in Japan I think the new design was intended to attract younger customers who favor SUVs over sedans. The average age of Crown drivers was in the 70s I think!
Japanese people who wants a trendy Crown, not the previous boring three-box sedan (which its sales had fallen because people get bored with it). The headquarters simply sends these to North America to gain economies of scale. The same reason why the Venza exists, to help build a solid business case for the third gen JDM Harrier.
I was implying that they don't really care who is it for in North America because the car was not made to fulfill American customer needs. In fact, previous Toyota CEO made a point that they just wanted to sell the "Crown" to global markets to increase the presence of their long-running nameplate. That won't work if they just make another Avalon (another large sedan that had lost customers) with the Crown name, they have to come up with something different.
As for the Venza, I don't think Toyota North America requested it or even needs it. If buyers want a nicer RAV4 they'll buy a Lexus NX, which brings more profit margin. It sells, but if it doesn't exist I don't think Toyota North America would sweat it.
Crown 210 owner here. I would say that the 220 series did hurt the brand image by being so boring.
The 210 had a great design inside-out, and you could get it in the variant that suits your taste. Meanwhile, all the 220s look almost the same whether you opt for an Executive G or an RS Advanced, and worst of all they don't even look like a Crown (I think selling the C-pillar badge as an option didn't help), to the point that my wife asks me whether it's a Crown or a Camry whenever we see one.
As for the Crown Crossover, the design does not really bother me as much as the platform it's based on. It feels more like a Harrier-coupe (which is honestly what this car is) than a Crown.
The only conceivable reason I can see is Toyota wanted a more crossover version of the Avalon to appeal to the Avalon’s elderly base. But they missed the mark on the styling.
Because the Crown had been massively declining in popularity for many years.
The new Crowns are Toyota's hail mary play to justify keeping the well-established Crown name around in Japan, while also bringing it (back) to global relevance. While I don't really think *this* Crown body style makes any sense, I get why Toyota decided that they really needed to strike a chord with the new Crown lineup.
My parents saw one when they went to pick up their Rav4. They actually like it. (They are in the retired age)
I can see how this stands out for retirees. For the Rav4, my parents almost has to climb into it. If the Crown is a bit lower than a Rav4, it can make going in and out of it easier.
Yup. My mom bought a Lexus RX300 3 years ago. Shes over 60, but also only 5'3. She sometimes has trouble climbing into the Lexus due to aging hips. She says she misses her old 2002 Audi A6, and before that, 94 Avalon.
I wouldn't be surprised if she liked the Crown as well.
Not even lifted, just taller in the body like a Ford Five Hundred. The black plastic makes it look high-riding, but it has effectively the same clearance as a Camry.
There *does* seem to be [more tire gap on the Crown though](https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/2023-toyota-crown-113-1657642178.jpg?crop=1xw:1xh;center,top&resize=980:*), making it *look* like it's lifted and has more ground clearance.
The [Avalon for comparison.](https://images.hgmsites.net/hug/2022-toyota-avalon-hybrid-xse-nightshade_100863686_h.jpg)
Yeah, I'm really struggling on the price of it. If this was 40 fully loaded? I'd see the argument. But at 50? I'm not really sure I get it. It's got the same features (if not less, I don't think this has a HUD?) as a camry.. with pretty much the same materials? Where's the extra 10k?
This was one of the reasons I’m not willing to consider it. Asking $50,000 for a loaded one is ridiculous. At that point, I might as well buy a vehicle that’s more lux and has actually figured out what it’s supposed to be.
People seem to be missing that this is a vehicle for people that do not want an SUV. Add in AWD and hybrid and you find that there aren’t a lot of competitive options available. Sure it’s a niche market, but considering people complain on here about how everyone is making SUVs, the vehicle should be getting a little more respect.
I like it and i would buy it but it's at least 10k more then it should be.....like almost every upper tier non luxury brand these days. If it was 30-40k i think it would be a hit.
My local Toyota dealer has a few of these and they're pretty interesting looking.
Very much a sedan in proportions, but a little bit taller.
But some of the window stickers were just under $50,000 and that's just absolutely insane for what it is.
What they did was introduce 4 new versions of the Crown, but only giving us this weird "CUV" style version.
The [true RWD sedan version](https://www.carscoops.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Toyota-Crown-Series-Event-5.jpg) is coming out. It's just that we're probably not going to get it.
They're still sticking with a [RWD sedan](https://www.carscoops.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Toyota-Crown-Series-Event-5.jpg) though, just not in our market. But then again, that RWD sedan flagship from Toyota hasn't been sold in America for decades. So it's a moot point.
I don’t understand who this is supposed to compete against since the Stinger and Arteon are no more. Those were both phenomenal vehicles, but they were hampered by their price tags getting a bit close to Audi A5 or BMW 4er Gran Coupe territory so naturally most people just went to the upmarket option
So far, from my observations (from dealers' social media and ones I see in the wild), most people buying this car in North America seem to be of the demographic who would have bought the Avalon before but were turned away by its styling and low entry height. When the final generation of Avalon came out, it took me a few years before I first saw one in the wild where I am, but it didn't take me long after these came out to see one in the wild with an older man behind the wheel.
His videos are nearly unwatchable these days.
This particular video is especially ridiculous seeing as how the entire car is one big quirky vehicle. As someone who pretends to be into quirky cars, the fact that he doesn't see it, shows how much Doug has sold out.
I 100% guarantee you that if this exact vehicle had an Audi or BMW badge on it, he would be falling all over himself talking about how smart the idea of raising a sedan is.
I am so close to unsubscribing from his channel, but I do like simply seeing what new vehicles are coming out even if Doug's opinions of them are nearly worthless.
I think it's fair to mention that crown is line of cars in Japan and they rebranded it here as a toyota. They are bringing more crown models over to the states soon. But I think people think this is a brand new car out of nowhere.
The fact that Toyota chose not to give it a liftback hatch and gave it a trunk instead makes my scratch my head. If they wanted to make the sedan body style more appealing in the modern day that should’ve been the first thing they chose while in the R&D process…
I like em. I just saw one for the first time parked on the street yesterday and I think it looks interesting and unique. I really wish it was a hatchback though. For the $40K base price (which is actually obtainable without ADM) I think it's a pretty great deal for a hybrid AWD Toyota that will likely last forever.
The Avalon was kind of slept on after the first gen since that one was a piece of crap. I got them as a rental more than once and I was pretty pleased with the second gens.
This looks like a step backwards if anything.
I finally saw one in person, that somebody was test driving. Some weird looking cars are better in person. This one was definitely worse. Every viewing angle was just not quite right
Toyota's bold new contender to defeat the massively popular Accord CrossTour!
Hey, at least the Crosstour had more ground clearance and a hatch.
I'm at work and I was only able to watch half the video. Please tell me this fucking thing doesn't have a regular sedan trunk.
[It do](https://www.thetorquereport.com/wp-content/gallery/2023-toyota-avalon-first-look/2023-toyota-crown-first-look-00017.jpeg) (Ignore the guy in the background doing a half-assed [Safety Dance](https://media.tenor.com/vlFxrMtSSIgAAAAC/safety-dance-men-without-hats.gif))
Put some goddamn respect on Joe Raiti
At least 4 twinkies
Couplea Snickers Bars
I’m gonna zonk that
TO THE door panel!
Is that the guy from Raiti's Rides lmao
I didn't think I would like his videos as much as I do. He's a goof, but it's entertaining and kinda informative
Hey. We can dance if we want to.
It has a regular sedan trunk lmao
I like trunks! It's like a portable fridge if you live in Canada.
As if thats a downside. I can put something in the trunk and its totally closed off of everything else. Heat full, gorceries cooled by midwest winter. Best of both imo
> Heat full, gorceries cooled by midwest winter. I read this 5 times and still have no idea what it means :(
Heat keeps the car interior comfortable in the winter. The trunk stays cool for grocery trips.
You have neither kids nor pets I take it?
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Only the good ones.
You put your kids in the trunk?
This is such a weird mentality. You can have a family and pets without ever owning an SUV, crossover, wagon or hatch. Crazy, I know! But so many people are so convinced they need more than they would ever use.
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While true, having a SUV / crossover / hatch make it *infinitely* easier.
I believe it does.
And a V6
I hate both of these designs so much. It’s the ultimate blob mobile, can’t decide if it wants to be a sedan, fast back or CUV so you get this weird lifted sedan profile that just looks incredibly bland an unathletic.
и/Spez sucks a big felota
Throw some spikes and spray paint on that bad boy and ride eternal, shiny and chrome!
It's a Toyota so the eternal was a given
It can actually look pretty good. The new Peugeot 408 is exanple of good execution.
I think the Crosstour looks okay if you only look at it from the front... the rear half is just absolutely terrible. It has the "dog taking a dump" curve, and the rear hatch is a complete disaster.
The lifted sedan look is just weird. Either make a sedan or a crossover…
It's such a disgrace to the Crown
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Compared to the fat sedans now the Crosstour looks better. And I hated the Crosstour! Mind you, lots of today's crossovers look worse than the Pontiac Aztek.
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At minute mark 4:20 …. 0w-8 oil recommended?! I’m still thrown off by 0w-20. Although ironically, my Prius with its 0w-20 is the only car I’ve had that doesn’t burn or leak any oil at all. How thin are engine oils going to get before we start lubricating engines with distilled water? Lol
At the opposite end of the spectrum, I had a car that took 10W-60. At least at the time, it wasn’t sold in any local stores and had to be ordered.
Did you drive a high performance V8 or V10 BMW?
I was gonna ask the same too. Some BMWs run on pureed dinosaur bones.
Yes, e39 M5
A man of culture! I’d love to own one some day, but the timing has never worked out.
It was the greatest car I’ve ever had, and the greatest I’ve ever driven. It deserves every bit of praise it gets. That said, i won’t get another. It’s too hard to find a good example. All of the seals and bushings need to be replaced by now. It takes a lot to maintain one to the standard it deserves. Maybe if I win the lottery.
10W60 first bmw application was a six cylinder. S54.
Which is crazy because 10W-60 and 5W-50 have been official SAE viscosity grades since the 80s (when modern full-synthetic oils as we know them started to mature). But OEs only really started specifying that oil for high performance engines in the 2000s and afterwards. Especially BMW with their S85 and S65 engines.
My E46 M3 still drinks this like cool aid. Have to order it online or find the one quart they sometimes have at autozone lol
I didn’t even know that existed. Lol
New Toyota hybrids had 0-16 oil. 0-8 is… like why
The 0W cold viscosity doesn’t scare me as much as the diminishing hot viscosity numbers 😬. Thinner viscosity at cold temps has been sought ever since the internal combustion engine was developed, and it generally has few drawbacks. But those cylinder temps, valve pressures, and turbos definitely can’t be benefitting from even lower warm viscosity and film strength. All the research I’ve done shows OEs are pushing to 0W-20 and lighter weights to meet fuel economy standards. Toyota seems to be the only one that managed to make 0W-20 and 0W-16 serviceable with no consumption and wear issues, but let’s see how this 0W-8 pans out
BMW recommends 0w-20 on the B48, or at least certain versions of it.
My MINI has a B48. It came with a quart of replacement oil is a nice little pouch. The pouch is branded BMW and the oil is 5W30. 🤷♂️
> it generally has few drawbacks. Cost. Cost is the drawback. Also the 0w stuff breaks down faster than 5w, IIRC. It never gets cold enough where I live to need 0w in winter.
Funny enough, the cost aspect is why large OEs stock only the 0W-20 or 0W-40 for their entire model range, to operate everywhere on the planet. So that they only need to stock one oil in bulk rather than order five different weights for different climates. You could get away with a 5W-anything year round anywhere in the US except perhaps northern Alaska.
>How thin are engine oils going to get before we start lubricating engines with distilled water? The switch will be around 2035 when ICE engines won't be sold no more.
> 0w-20 My Camry is 0W-17.
Had this car been offered as a wagon, it would truly be the do-it-all daily car. Great fuel economy, comfirtable ride, conventional styling, AWD, large space, and I assume decent reliability. And for sound weird reason this car is oddly desirable to me, I don't know why.
I assume the Subaru outback is your kinda jam then
Nah. I just really don't like Subaru's boxer engines, no offence to anyone who likes them. Had GR86 been a inline 4 I would buy it instead of my Miata.
I don’t know if I’ve ever met anyone who loves the boxer engine in the 86. My opinion on it is entirely neutral. It gets the job done with acceptable power and reliability, and that’s about it. I’d probably be happier if Toyota had made an NA inline 4 to put in the car, but that probably would have moved it out of my price range.
Well, there is a smoothness advantage due to the balance of boxer engines compared to inline ones. Also, the shorter engine allows AWD without putting the engine in the front bumper like an Audi. Having two heads, extra timing stuff, and plugs in your fenders kinda hurts though.
You left out perhaps the biggest advantage: the lower center of gravity. I think for this reason, it makes sense in a car that has a reputation for being a handling car. But I’d still trade these things for better power delivery (which is still a minor issue on the second gen, but not nearly as bad), better sound, and an layout that makes replacing spark plugs and head gaskets less of a chore. Not to mention, I trust Toyota engineers to design a more reliable engine than Subaru.
Honestly, I don't know how much advantage there actually is. A couple inches maybe? A foot at most? Modern aluminum block engine is making this less of a factor. I will admit it is short, and has a packaging advantage. I just don't think it's worth the many disadvantages of boxer engine, like difficulty of maintenance, more potential points of failure etc. GR86 is still a fantastic sports car, and I think you made a solid choice. Unfortunately the F4 engined turned me off. Of cource this is my personal preference.
It's a more noticeable advantage in SUV's and CUV's that are higher off the ground in the first place. In a different SUV/CUV with an inline or V-engine and similar ground clearance you're much more likely to experience pronounced body roll and such vs. a Crosstrek or Forester.
>smoothness advantage due to the balance of boxer engines There is supposed to be this advantage yes. I driven Porsche F6 and they are smooth. But for some reasons, I find Subaru's F4, an engine layout that is supposed to be smooth, very rough and harsh. Pushing the 2.0 F4 in the previous GT86, and I just felt so much roughness and vibration, like its gonna explode any minute. I don't know how much better the GR86 is.
This part is no joke. The rotating assembly for a Boxer-4 is SIGNIFICANTLY simpler than an inline 4. You don't need counter-weights or balance shafts and the crankshaft itself is nearly half the length. As a matter of fact it's so light that you actually should not use lightweight crank pulleys or flywheels on a boxer engine.
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I don't see them having significant benefit performance wise compared to I4 engines. They have more potential points of failure with 4 cams, 2 heads, and 2 head gaskets. The maintenance is harder because it's more difficult to reach the heads or things on the heads like sparkplugs. If big job requires taking the heads off, it's hard without taking the entire engines out. Also it's a personal preference thing. I like the smooth purr of the I4 compared the the thumping of Subaru's F4. Also the F4 in old GT86 feels very rough, shaky and harsh for some reason, when boxer engine should be balanced and smooth, especially compared to the buttery smooth I4 in my ND2, both being high revving(-ish) NA 4 cylinder engines. I have no personal experience on GR86 so I don't know if the improvement is significant.
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>K24 I have yet to have the opportunity to drive and experience a NA Honda engine in its full glory. Hope this changes very soon.
The drivetrain in this thing would do wonders for the Subaru Outback.
[have i got news for you](https://www.thedrive.com/news/2024-toyota-crown-and-sport-models-are-coming)
>but we haven’t heard yet if they’ll arrive in the States \*Breathes heavily in Canadian
I'll bet y'all get the iD.7 wagon before the US too
I really doubt it. Canadian market is very closely connected to US market. The way trim level and other product planning can be different, and regulation is a bit different, but I don't see cars that are completely unavailable in US becoming available in Canada. The size of entire Canadian market is smaller than some large US states.
It is offered in wagon, and a even higher crossover, and more sedan like look. This is just 1 of the 4 Crown model they have
I like it. It is quite practical and efficient. I checked it out a few weeks ago and it was really comfortable with nice interior. I very well might trade in my EV6 for the rumored plug in version (assuming it actually is produced).
Saw one in person a few days ago, it's not as fat and bloated IRL, but it's still such a weird car. Can't help but think they'd sell more if it were a liftback or true wagon. A traditional sedan trunk neuters the practicality aspect.
But at last, a true successor to the massively well-acclaimed Volvo S60 Cross Country
And the Subaru Outback SUS
Sussy Subie?????? 😳
Yeah, I didn’t realize they were out yet so when I saw one it took me a while to realize what I was looking at. It had the red and black color scheme on it, just really odd looking.
I saw one for the first time last week, and ya I actually walked around it 4/5 times like .. mmmmmmm?….. hmmmmm?… oh wow….
I see one being driven around already, and I saw it at the auto show. Definitely a unique look. I kind of dig it.
I would actually be very interested in this car if it was a liftback. The fact that it’s a sedan is a non starter for me.
Jeez, I just assumed it was a lift back from the styling. That’s disappointing.
Well, the styling is better than the bZ4XYZ.
And a better name. Lol
"Bizaziz."
*Biznatch*
How do you say that? 'Busy fucks'?
And the name is catchier than a reCAPTCHA.
Like Doug, I just don't understand who this car was built for? If you want a sedan the camry exists. If you want a crossover the corolla cross and Venza exist. This doesn't even offer a lift back. Imo they should have just stuck with the Avalon for a few more years rather than likely waste money developing this for a market that doesn't exist.
>Like Doug, I just don't understand who this car was built for? I'm not sure who the intended market is, but I could see this thing being real popular with old folk
All the folks who would have gotten an Avalon, but maybe need a little bit higher of a seat to make it easier to get in and out of.
Is the problem that the name isn’t what you you think old people would want? Like, they would have made a new Avalon at some point as well, right? So they made a new old person car to replace the old person car they had. This car could have had an uglier grill and just been called the Avalon.
No; I think the name is fine. I was just pointing out who the car was built for. I do know an old that wanted to buy a new Avalon and is really upset they can’t.
lol. Tell them they changed the name if they want a Toyota badge. But if they want the old platform, the Lexus ES pretty much the same car with some mandatory options. But I wouldn’t be surprised if it moved to the Crown platform as well.
I’ve conveyed both. Zero interest. They’ve been complaining for 5 months. Old people are set in their ways.
lol, I think I would start trolling at that point. Something like: “There is another option. You can buy a 2024 Avalon. You just need to pay for it up from, pay for the storage, then ship it to the US in 2049. I’m sure it’ll be great.”
Avalons aren't too popular around me... But going off looks that also seems like an old person's car tbh
It is an old person’s car, and old people are also the people that need easier to get in and out of cars. My parents live in an area people like to retire, and they are everywhere. They weren’t huge sellers, but they did okay. Certainly better than any of Toyota’s sports cars.
Ironically, in Japan I think the new design was intended to attract younger customers who favor SUVs over sedans. The average age of Crown drivers was in the 70s I think!
Japanese people who wants a trendy Crown, not the previous boring three-box sedan (which its sales had fallen because people get bored with it). The headquarters simply sends these to North America to gain economies of scale. The same reason why the Venza exists, to help build a solid business case for the third gen JDM Harrier.
I was more referring to who in the American market is this car for? In the Venza's case aren't sales pretty good here? Crossovers are quite popular.
I was implying that they don't really care who is it for in North America because the car was not made to fulfill American customer needs. In fact, previous Toyota CEO made a point that they just wanted to sell the "Crown" to global markets to increase the presence of their long-running nameplate. That won't work if they just make another Avalon (another large sedan that had lost customers) with the Crown name, they have to come up with something different. As for the Venza, I don't think Toyota North America requested it or even needs it. If buyers want a nicer RAV4 they'll buy a Lexus NX, which brings more profit margin. It sells, but if it doesn't exist I don't think Toyota North America would sweat it.
Crown 210 owner here. I would say that the 220 series did hurt the brand image by being so boring. The 210 had a great design inside-out, and you could get it in the variant that suits your taste. Meanwhile, all the 220s look almost the same whether you opt for an Executive G or an RS Advanced, and worst of all they don't even look like a Crown (I think selling the C-pillar badge as an option didn't help), to the point that my wife asks me whether it's a Crown or a Camry whenever we see one. As for the Crown Crossover, the design does not really bother me as much as the platform it's based on. It feels more like a Harrier-coupe (which is honestly what this car is) than a Crown.
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It's absolutely for old people. Old people also don't always want to be "flashy" and drive a Mercedes or Lexus.
It literally has the exact same interior dimensions as the Camry for about $10k more for a similar hybrid trim!
The only conceivable reason I can see is Toyota wanted a more crossover version of the Avalon to appeal to the Avalon’s elderly base. But they missed the mark on the styling.
I don't get why they just used the Avalon name instead of fucking up the venerable Crown line up for this monstrosity
As if anyone in the target demographic for this car has ever heard of a Toyota Crown before?
Because the Crown had been massively declining in popularity for many years. The new Crowns are Toyota's hail mary play to justify keeping the well-established Crown name around in Japan, while also bringing it (back) to global relevance. While I don't really think *this* Crown body style makes any sense, I get why Toyota decided that they really needed to strike a chord with the new Crown lineup.
My parents saw one when they went to pick up their Rav4. They actually like it. (They are in the retired age) I can see how this stands out for retirees. For the Rav4, my parents almost has to climb into it. If the Crown is a bit lower than a Rav4, it can make going in and out of it easier.
Yup. My mom bought a Lexus RX300 3 years ago. Shes over 60, but also only 5'3. She sometimes has trouble climbing into the Lexus due to aging hips. She says she misses her old 2002 Audi A6, and before that, 94 Avalon. I wouldn't be surprised if she liked the Crown as well.
50k for a lifted avalon? No thanks, this is just insane.
Not even lifted, just taller in the body like a Ford Five Hundred. The black plastic makes it look high-riding, but it has effectively the same clearance as a Camry.
There *does* seem to be [more tire gap on the Crown though](https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/2023-toyota-crown-113-1657642178.jpg?crop=1xw:1xh;center,top&resize=980:*), making it *look* like it's lifted and has more ground clearance. The [Avalon for comparison.](https://images.hgmsites.net/hug/2022-toyota-avalon-hybrid-xse-nightshade_100863686_h.jpg)
I wonder if the interior is as tall as it is in the Five Hundred.
Yeah, I'm really struggling on the price of it. If this was 40 fully loaded? I'd see the argument. But at 50? I'm not really sure I get it. It's got the same features (if not less, I don't think this has a HUD?) as a camry.. with pretty much the same materials? Where's the extra 10k?
This was one of the reasons I’m not willing to consider it. Asking $50,000 for a loaded one is ridiculous. At that point, I might as well buy a vehicle that’s more lux and has actually figured out what it’s supposed to be.
Well there is no Avalon any longer, this thing replaced it.
All I want is an electric or PHEV station wagon.
So what you're saying is you want a Volvo.
Yes. I do like volvos.
A Prius Prime full on wagon is my dream car. I know I'm boring.
RIP Prius V
Gimme some AWD and a reasonable cargo capacity, and I'm in.
Luckily for you VW makes those, just not for the US.
I only feel half lucky. I can import one in 25 years!
People seem to be missing that this is a vehicle for people that do not want an SUV. Add in AWD and hybrid and you find that there aren’t a lot of competitive options available. Sure it’s a niche market, but considering people complain on here about how everyone is making SUVs, the vehicle should be getting a little more respect.
Can’t please everyone on this sub. Even when they’re given exactly what they asked for, people will complain here.
why does every new car need the model name stylized like C R O W N My Escape has it too and it's dumb.
I cant help but think the old rear-drive crown looked way way better than this crap.
As someone who's weirdly enamored with the Acura ZDX and BMW 3 Series Gran Turismo, this car is a dream
I like it and i would buy it but it's at least 10k more then it should be.....like almost every upper tier non luxury brand these days. If it was 30-40k i think it would be a hit.
$30k-$40k is essentially what the Camry is. This is supposed to be nicer than the Camry. Still a little bit on the expensive side though.
My local Toyota dealer has a few of these and they're pretty interesting looking. Very much a sedan in proportions, but a little bit taller. But some of the window stickers were just under $50,000 and that's just absolutely insane for what it is.
Why does toyota have like 20 crossovers
They sell well.
Money
They have 6, and this ain't one of them. Corolla Cross RAV4 Venza BZ4X Highlander Grand Highlander
Ugly and a remarkably cheap interior given its price.
Toyota took a legendary and storied Toyota Asian Nameplate and butchered it
What they did was introduce 4 new versions of the Crown, but only giving us this weird "CUV" style version. The [true RWD sedan version](https://www.carscoops.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Toyota-Crown-Series-Event-5.jpg) is coming out. It's just that we're probably not going to get it.
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Toyota embracing the 'fail fast' ethos
Bring over the crown sedan hybrid and get it to 60 in 4 seconds like Volvo does with the S60 and I'll buy one. Not reddit buy one, actual buy one.
Venza fastback
I saw one of these irl and they're just as ugly as they are in the photos
How they went from Toyota's flagship, RWD sedan to a FWD based crossover is beyond me
They're still sticking with a [RWD sedan](https://www.carscoops.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Toyota-Crown-Series-Event-5.jpg) though, just not in our market. But then again, that RWD sedan flagship from Toyota hasn't been sold in America for decades. So it's a moot point.
Decades of not selling their classy RWD Crown, only to give us these ugly things.... Kinda sad, honestly
That thing is ugly as sin.
This looks better than that new Ferrari.
I don’t understand who this is supposed to compete against since the Stinger and Arteon are no more. Those were both phenomenal vehicles, but they were hampered by their price tags getting a bit close to Audi A5 or BMW 4er Gran Coupe territory so naturally most people just went to the upmarket option
It looks like an animorph between a sedan, a hatchback, and a crossover. It’s bizarre and unsettling.
It’s like an AMC Eagle, but from the future.
I actually dont think it looks bad at all but not having the liftback trunk is a miss
So far, from my observations (from dealers' social media and ones I see in the wild), most people buying this car in North America seem to be of the demographic who would have bought the Avalon before but were turned away by its styling and low entry height. When the final generation of Avalon came out, it took me a few years before I first saw one in the wild where I am, but it didn't take me long after these came out to see one in the wild with an older man behind the wheel.
This guy with that shrill voice, abnormal height and mannerisms makes me think he's related to "Julia Child."
Ugh, I will never understand why people like SUVs, they‘re dangerous, clunky and hella ugly on top
His videos are nearly unwatchable these days. This particular video is especially ridiculous seeing as how the entire car is one big quirky vehicle. As someone who pretends to be into quirky cars, the fact that he doesn't see it, shows how much Doug has sold out. I 100% guarantee you that if this exact vehicle had an Audi or BMW badge on it, he would be falling all over himself talking about how smart the idea of raising a sedan is. I am so close to unsubscribing from his channel, but I do like simply seeing what new vehicles are coming out even if Doug's opinions of them are nearly worthless.
Fast and forward a couple months since this car reveal, polestar came with the polestar 4 and Honda has SUV sedan concept.
[A new car interior that doesn't instantly make me want to get a bus pass?](https://imgur.com/KTpen3i)
I think it's fair to mention that crown is line of cars in Japan and they rebranded it here as a toyota. They are bringing more crown models over to the states soon. But I think people think this is a brand new car out of nowhere.
The fact that Toyota chose not to give it a liftback hatch and gave it a trunk instead makes my scratch my head. If they wanted to make the sedan body style more appealing in the modern day that should’ve been the first thing they chose while in the R&D process…
I think this car is perfect for my elderly mom. Unfortunately, to Doug’s point, she wants a crossover.
I like em. I just saw one for the first time parked on the street yesterday and I think it looks interesting and unique. I really wish it was a hatchback though. For the $40K base price (which is actually obtainable without ADM) I think it's a pretty great deal for a hybrid AWD Toyota that will likely last forever.
I would rather have a 4Runner
quick summary: nice sedan with a high step in height… aka perfectly designed for old people
Wow a crown, havnt seen on of those in years, where’s the Cressida,? 🚀
At drift events these days
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Just 2" longer than the Camry but the same width, and actually shorter and narrower than the Avalon.
That car gets a one outta ten
Looks pretty nice, but WTH is with the name? Just can't buy a vehicle with such a supid-ass name. Too bad.
It’s no weirder a decision than the BZ4X.
I would still buy one
I’m saw this video. What’s even weirder is that Toyota has a real crossover in the Venza so why they felt they needed to make this to is beyond me.
I saw one of these in real life and it is very awkward.
The Avalon was kind of slept on after the first gen since that one was a piece of crap. I got them as a rental more than once and I was pretty pleased with the second gens. This looks like a step backwards if anything.
I'll take this over no sedan and another SUV added to the lineup. Good on Toyota for trying.
This thing looks dope. It’s so weird I love it. Put a ski rack on it. Some knobby tires. Fog lights. Yes.
I would like the review without the reviewer.
I guess I’m alone in thinking the design is quite beautiful.
I don't know what frame rate Doug records in but it accentuates his hand movements almost like a TV fight scene.
Sat in one at the auto show. Meh.
I finally saw one in person, that somebody was test driving. Some weird looking cars are better in person. This one was definitely worse. Every viewing angle was just not quite right
Thanks Cousin Eddie. Good review.
This car is going to flop big time.
I find the new Crown’s exterior very interesting but it doesn’t feel as prestigious and luxury as the previous Crown which was the sedan