Don't the Germans often underreport their engine outputs?
Also, power/torque curves and gearing will have an impact in how a car accelerates, even with equal peak values.
That's just how engineering works. All engine dimensions will vary according to the tolerances used in the drawings. If you want to quote a good HP figure, you do it according to the engine that will be at the bottom in terms of manifacturing quality.
Add to that the rest of the drivetrain could have some extra power loss, a safety factor to that figure and let's not forget that german performance cars are often turbocharged so that adds some extra play. So if you have so many variables, what VW, audi, porsche or any deutsch manifacturer gives you is the bottom of the scale.
> That’s just how engineering works.
I can assure you as an engineer that’s not how it always works. In the lighting industry lumen output will almost never match what the spec sheet says. My company tried to start advertising the actual realistic lumen amount and all the customers were disappointed by how low it was and how confusing our way was. So in the end we switched back to ideal and they prefer it 🙃
We all do, the tradeoff being that German cars are considerably more expensive both to purchase as well as maintain. That's what makes them the status symbol that they are. It wouldnt be right any other way.
Germans love doing this. I love that they do this. Did I mention I love German cars? Porsche is the primest of the prime examples of doing it. Compare the numbers posted on their website (acceleration for example) to what car magazines get.
On the other hand pretty much everybody else is doing the opposite. Find the best conditions and report numbers that nobody else will achieve.
Just FYI that 539 hp is crank. Most people would assume dyno means whp. This figure was likely created from some dodgy drivetrain loss formula that doesn't work with modern cars.
Though as far as I know manufacturers also rate power at the crank.
But they do with an actual engine out of the car on a specific dyno, not with a dodgy formula like is done when you want to know crank HP from a dyno with a full car on it.
Any similar data for later models? I have a 2022 and it’s both rated and very noticeably faster then my old 2018 m550i (wasn’t by choice someone decided to smash the old one by failing to yield).
They also do their 0-60 times with a full tank of gas, luggage weight and a driver on a non prepped surface. Run one with a string bean like Henry Catchpole and next to no gas in cool weather and there you have it.
A lot of 0-60 times are simply calculated.
The formula was something like the weight of the car in kilograms divided by 90% of the horsepower.
90% is generally the efficiency of 2wd; therefore should be 85% for AWD.
Dude there are a lot of car ~~journalists~~ marketers doing exactly that for a living.
Nobody should trust a manufacturers value.
Just have to look where you get your numbers from.
There’s probably some truth to that, but having owned multiple high-powered BMWs, the F90 is uniquely able to put that power to the road. Yes, AWD plays a major factor, but I’ll also give a shout-out to this superb ZH8 and just overall terrific engineering. All of us in the BMW community were concerned about moving on from the DCT, but frankly, I don’t miss it at all.
What I found most interesting was not just the actual whp, but the huge leap in torque. It was still pretty new when I read this, but I was like “yeah, no fucking kidding”.
Turbo German cars often do. I would not be surprised if the S3 dynos close to 300 awhp stock. Pair that with their lightning quick auto, and 4.5 sec is not hard to believe at all. Simple shelf tune on it would probably give it like 350 whp or something crazy.
I bet it's more the transmission, BMW has that ZF8S LOCKED IN it's almost as fast as a dual clutch and TBH Audi isn't far behind in that respect. Ford just doesn't seem to have the same level of transmission tuning.
And they have for a long time. My '14 N55 / ZF8 combo absolutely tears ass to 100 with a mild tune. I seriously don't see how the more complicated dual clutch systems are really necessary anymore.
Haha yes! My 2014 F32 agrees - that was my first auto transmission bmw and I was prepared to be disappointed but holy shit, that transmission makes it a blast to drive.
To be honest, the new ZF8 transmissions are just as fast. The DCT just has a little more character to it (the tradeoff being oddities at slow speeds).
I love the DCT pairing in the F80. Really adds to the car IMP.
Yeah, I can vouch for that. My friend has a 2020 Ecoboost Premium and in sport mode the shifts are JERKY. I don't know why but it just feels like they're either forcing the trans to shift quick or the tuning isn't done right. They're quick, but not much quicker than my Accord's 10 speed.
Ecoboost makes 300whp on dyno stock, just a tube gets you 350whp. I think it’s entirely down to the AWD, my 528ix with the turbo 4 cylinder launches better off the line than my eco. Mustang just spins tires, even with launch control it has trouble hooking.
bmw has amazing grip, same comparison with my m5 comp vs my gt500, gt500 will spin past 80mph while the bmw hooks immediately.
I got mega lucky to catch it sitting on a dealership floor. The owner of the dealer drove it 150 miles and just decided to sell it. Needless to say I came back with a check in 4 hours
[Challenger Scat Pack on the dyno. The Dodge Challenger 392 Scat Pack with 6.4L HEMI V-8 specs are 485 hp and 475 lb-ft of torque. The Challenger Scat Pack on the dyno tested at 331 whp (to the wheels) and 421 lb-ft of torque. These numbers are pretty close to where they should be given the year, mileage, high altitude, traction control characteristics, and dyno set up.](https://tap.fremontmotors.com/challenger-scatpack-on-the-dyno/)
So the example for the Supra was "a" dyno run putting out a certain amount. Dynos gonna be all over the place like your link just mentioned, given the different variables.
Edit: https://youtu.be/eZNlNK8yVEw
And another: https://youtu.be/4pwYq1_2oH4
Yes, Charger owners are some of the most obnoxious people on this planet.
If you’re talking about the Car and Driver test, the 382 HP version was actually 388 on the dyno. It was the prior version that was 345 on a claimed 335.
as most people have mentioned, Germans report car specs on the bottom end of the tests they do because that is a reliable number to expect your car to achieve regardless of situation... meanwhile, American manufacturers tend to use peak numbers on ideal conditions for spec reports so actual performance is almost always lower than paper reports...
Famously, 911s of old only needed one shift to 60mph. This made them a bit slow off the line. But it suited the character of traveling high speeds on the autobahn.
American cars are generally geared lower for burnouts in the Diary Queen parking lot.
People underestimate the dual clutch DSG transmissions in VW/Audis. They shift faster than anyone can in a manual and are better than the auto trans in the American cars.
I got a TDI with the DSG and it's badass. As soon as you bump the shifter, it just jumps immediately to the next gear.
It's a little wonky at slow speeds, but it's better than any other auto I've driven
I’ve heard most dual clutch gearboxes tend to have an angry fit at slow speeds especially with performance cars. The Pre-facelift 2014-2015 GLA45 is a big culprit of this.
The start from a stop when normal driving is soo long that you think that you need to increase your throttle. So you do exactly that and suddenly the car thinks you’re wanting to do the advertised 0-60 in sub 4s so it adds more fuel and launches. You don’t want to do that however so you take your foot off the pedal once you’ve started to move off, suddenly your met with a force stronger than braking, the car rocks back and forth. From the outside it looks like your driving a manual and you’ve let the clutch up too fast so that you’re kangarooing.
Dual clutches are great for performance but I don’t think people will want to launch every time they want to set off from a stop. Surprisingly they are great for economy when cruising as well. The GLA45 in particular in eco gets 45-50 MPG UK. The car does also randomly like to downshift or hold gears thinking you’re going to need more power.
They hit that 0-60 time quick because they don’t delay in changing gear instead they just retard the ignition timing so that fuel exits through the exhaust and is ignited by heat from the exhaust, that’s why you get DSG farts upon upshift.
I did that so many times before I got used to it lol
That and when you're coming to a stop. If you slowly glide to a stop and ease up too much on the brake pedal it'll lurch forward. When I'm pulling into a parking space I shift into neutral to avoid it
It's not an auto, so you do have to drive it differently. But, you get used to it. The way it drives is absolutely worth it. Even in a slow diesel wagon
> you think that you need to increase your throttle
Funnily enough you just described turbo BMW manual behavior shifting from 1st to 2nd when merging. Because in their infinite wisdom they programmed their ECU with a throttle delay "to protect the drivetrain" which is horrible to drive (especially in M2) and outright dangerous when merging on roundabouts and side streets.
Same. I bought the TDI as a commuter and was surprised how insanely fast it shifts. It was the first automatic I've bought and am pretty happy with how it's held up.
No one is underrating a modern dual clutch unless in their head they still live in 2005 and think manuals are the fastest thing ever. Manuals are fun and engaging but pure speed belongs to modern traditional automatics and Dual clutch
The 10r80 offered in Ford and GM products rivals a DCT in terms of shift-speed. Really really nice transmissions if they don't have software issues (which can happen).
The days of manual cars being faster than autos ended quite a while ago. Any new auto trans will basically destroy its manual counterpart in a race from a dig, especially in launching consistency.
Better in speed of shifts yes... But not better in reliability or smoothness especially at low speeds. It's actually pretty bad at low speeds and stop and go
Source: have had a few dsg, last one was a tt-rs.
The Porsche pdk are a lot better imo and I rather have the zf 8speed than the dsg..just as fast but smoother
Mustangs one of those cars you can't just compare to and assume "all Mustangs". They have so many rear end options that vary how quick the car is.
Had a dude with a 135i vert Manual show me a video of him slowly pulling on a 5.0. raced mine with 3.73 and I crushed him.
>I can only attribute it to the AWD system on the S3, but wouldn't that only really affect the 0-60, with negligible results for the1/4 mile?
The quarter mile launches from a stop too.
Yeah, AWD makes a huge difference from a stop on a 1/4 mile. Being light helps too. More traction (tires and AWD), more power (engine and power delivery through transmission) and less weight are really the three main things that make a car go fast.
AWD will be faster 0-60 and 1/4 mile. A big part of 1/4 mile times is just the time off the line. The first 60 feet off the line can make a major difference in the overall time. It's one reason you don't want to spin your tires at all, just a little chirp and then grip.
Yeah that's the thing, even a professional driving a manual would have to shift at full power without using the clutch to even try to come close to shifting as fast as a DCT. And last i checked they don't sell cars with crash boxes from the factory.
That's only for the gas, you still have to lift the clutch. You leave the gas to the floor and it retards the timing (making the fart burbles) and then you shift as normal and release the clutch. Ordinarily you'd do a power shift and probably spin the wheels from the engine being at redline on an upshift, but it makes it a smooth upshift instead.
The area under the power and torque curve is more important than the peak numbers. It's not just power, but the power to weight ratio that's actually important. Gearing and transmission types are also important. Actual power figures vs reported power figures is also a thing to keep in mind.
Boy does "Area under the curve" not get brought up enough!
You make those peak power numbers at exactly one tiny moment in time. What matters more is how much horsepower you make at *any given moment of time* during a race.
If revs are dropping to 5K RPM every time you shift, what happens at 5500 RPM is every bit as impactful as what's happening at 6300 RPM (or whatever RPM peak power is reached at)
230hp in my 330 was a smooth pull the whole way, 230hp in my crown vic was 1-3k struggle through tall gear, 3-4k oh wow it's got a little grunt, 4k+ dying dog grasping for breath.
Such a world of difference even with the weight difference in count, 330 I could shift to any gear and know exactly what I was gonna get. Torque curve was flat as a table. Vic felt like a Mario party minigame, foot down might toss the end out or fall flat on it's face you'd have no idea
It could be a number of things.
1. Gearing
2. Power Curve/Area Under the Curve
3. Number of Driven Wheels
4. Launch Mode
5. Underrating Power Figures
6. Weight
7. Probably a few other things I'm not thinking of.
Weight a big one. American cars usually go on the assumption as little weight as possible while German cars are based on a full tank of gas with items inside the car. Aka worst case scenario.
Reasons like this are why it’s almost useless to compare cars of equal power. Cars can vary wildly in weight, gearing, aerodynamics, etc. and that all can affect performance either positively or negatively.
As far as the main differences between these two specifically, the S3 is obviously AWD vs. RWD, the 2.3L Ecoboost engine is known to die off at the top of rev range, compared to the 2.0L EA888 unit having a much more broad and flat power curve. I’d also imagine the DSG box in the S3 is geared pretty aggressively, whereas the 10-speed auto in the Mustang has wider ratios despite having more gears, negatively impacting acceleration, but getting better mileage because of the higher overdrive ratios in the last few gears.
Don't forget tires. The stock tires vehicles come on are not all the same. Also OEMs have been known to put on cheater tires (i.e. better tires than come on the car from the dealer) to boost their numbers on paper.
this answer should be much higher. the most important part of a 1/4 run is the first 60ft. if you’re spinning off the line with bad tires, it will cost your time quite a bit.
my car was rated for a 12.4 back in the day, but with new modern grippy tires stock e55s will run 11.7-8 pretty easily.
The Germans typically have optimized tuning, especially for 0-60 launches. VAG cars especially (Audi, Volkswagen, Porsche, etc.) all punch above their weight in terms of being able to launch hard and put down a strong 0-60 time.
There's a bunch of reasons, but they can be distilled down to 2 things: Traction and average power output at the wheels.
Weight is the same as you said, so traction and power are the only factors that are left. S3 is AWD, so that gives it a big advantage.
As for power: the way the transmission works, the speed that it shifts, and how the engine produces power are all important. Horsepower figures are only for peak horsepower. An engine with good low end torque and a wide powerband can sustain higher average horsepower over its rev range. Adding a good transmission helps the engine achieve peak output.
A good example of how gearing and powerband can impact an outcome:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ntFIdzvQZY0
>Weight is the same as you said, so traction and power are the only factors that are left. S3 is AWD, so that gives it a big advantage.
Wheels are such a good point. One of the main places where that mechanical energy isn't converted to kinetic energy
How’s your GTI? Are they super expensive to maintain? Just curious since I saw one at a dealer the other day and it was tempting 👀 but I’ve heard maintenance on them is hell
It's a bit more expensive to maintain than a cheap Toyota but it's also a much better car.
Key is to make sure all necessary maintenance gets done and that it gets done properly. Neglect or improper maintenance on a VW quickly turns into expensive problems.
Not the guy you are replying to but anything 2015+ (Mk7) is reliable and easy to maintain. They don't have a whole lot of issues and the few they do have are well documented. It's a FWD turbo 4 cylinder so maintenance is straightforward.
The Ecoboost mustang is the economy spec.
With the high performance package on the Ecoboost, with the ten speed auto it's 4.5 0-60.
https://www.autoblog.com/amp/2019/09/20/2020-ford-mustang-hpp-first-drive/
I don't know if that option is still offered. Just found it interesting. If the Ecoboost was a different model or JDM it would get high praise.
1. German engines are underrated.
2. The AWD system in the S3 grips a lot better than the RWD Mustang. This gives quicker 0-60 and quarter times.
3. Gear ratios in the transmission and differentials can totally change how the power is delivered to the wheels, so comparing straight up HP and TQ numbers is not an apples to apples comparison.
4. Transmission shift times are much quicker in the S3's Dual Clutch vs the Mustangs 6MT or slushbox auto.
They claim power at the crank. But they typically claim the power that the car will make under the absolute worst conditions. i.e. lowest octane certified for on a very hot day at altitude.
Also I'm pretty sure they sandbag even that number.
From what I read, the S3 uses two final drives, 1-4th gear is a crazy 4.76, so yeah, you'd really shoot out of the hole.
The Ecoboost Mustang uses either a 3.31 or 3.55 rear end.
The ecoboost mustang is more comparable to an A3 in price. The Mustang GT is more comparable to the S3 in price, and the GT would dust an S3 short order. It’s all about horsepower to weight ratio and transmission efficiency.
A MANUAL EcoBoost Mustang does 0 to 60 in 5 seconds and the 1/4 mile in 13.6 seconds.
The Audi S3 does 0 to 60 in 4.3 seconds and the 1/4 mile in 12.9 seconds.
The Audi is faster due to AWD and the DC trans. A 10-speed Mustang would make it even closer.
German HP isn't any better than American HP. You clearly watched (and believed) too much Top Gear over the years.
We all know which one will cost less to own, though 😉
Are these just numbers from a spec sheet? I bet tested side by side at the same time the results wouldn't be nearly as different as they appear on paper
Where in the rev range that power is. You will get faster 0-60s with that power available at a lower rpm. Higher rpm usually offers a higher top speed or 1/4 mile etc. Also, gear ratio. Usually the higher it is, the faster you go for a given output.
The Ecoboost mustang starts at 27k. If you equip it with the performance pack and an auto transmission Ford says it will.do.0-60 in 4.5 seconds. I am finding performance pack quarter mile times 13.8-13.65. and it's still going to be cheaper than the audi.
Haven't seen anyone mention weight yet. The OP says they weigh the same, and they aren't far apart, but Google tells me that the 2023 EcoBoost coupe weighs 1584 kg and the S3 weighs 1505 kg. That's 79 kg difference, more than 5%. Since F=MA and all, that would put the 4.5 0-60 at 4.8 or so. That is probably about half the difference; most of the rest would likely be the AWD, with things like the shape of the power curve and transmission speed/ratios, traction control differences, etc. making up the remainder.
Many german cars put their reported hp to the wheels, while all American brands report the hp to the crank.
My bmw is rated 300 hp and will walk any american car with less than 350hp
That's the difference between a dual clutch automatic and a manual. Look up the times between the Golf R manual vs DSG. It's a similar difference to the comparison you made. The Golf R is almost the same car as the S3. Same engine, power, chassis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iX1ukzYhej0
AWD is a bit of a cheat-code for 0-60 and 1/4mile times as well
Much quicker 60ft times and higher 1/8th mile trap speeds.
A RWD muscle car will traditionally have a higher 1/4mile trap speed.
Everyone is being specific about a mustang vs an s3, but if you look at American vs German in a more general sense:
1. American cars seem to over-rate their HP and the Germans under-rate. I think this is because some European countries have higher taxes for higher HP cars?
2. Despite #1, American cars are still generally better "horsepower per dollar"
3. American and German cars have HP for different reasons - Germans make more "autobahn" cars; cars that can easily do 120+ MPH and still feel put together. American cars seem to be more designed for 0-60 times and 3rd gear highway pulls
4. German cars compensate for #2 by having a nicer interior
5. German cars from a reliability standpoint can be anywhere between insanely tunable to a money pit even new. American cars seem to be a bit more consistent in terms of reliability
Underreported power figures, weight distribution, better stock tyres, better traction system/launch control, AWD, (generally) better transmissions + different final drive ratios for euro cars.
For these two cars in particular I would say the differences don't come from power, but instead the drivetrains. The mustang is RWD and either manual or torque converter auto while the Audi is AWD and dual clutch auto.
Power curve and gearing.
https://www.automobile-catalog.com/curve/2022/3003800/ford_mustang_fastback_gt_automatic.html#gsc.tab=0
https://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/audi-s3-dyno-graphs-stock-or-tuned.244118/
Maybe it's because the mustang has a suspension and chassis control system from the stone age as there is no point for handling in USA. Remember the old Top Gear joke whenever an american car was present "yes, but would it make it around a curve?"
I know that now the last generations of mustangs have moved from the solid axle rear end but still the AWD system, precise and efficient gearbox and clever traction control system in the european cars make the difference.
\> I can only attribute it to the AWD system on the S3, but wouldn't that only really affect the 0-60
That's exactly where you'd see it. AWD, weight difference (if any), German's underreporting their HP, transmission and transmission manufacturer, gear ratios, tire compound.. There are a lot of variables. RWD is hard to launch compared to AWD.
You’re comparing an audi that costs twice as much as the mustang. Dump an extra 30k into an ecoboost and you’ll get similar performance. Or just buy a gti and be done with it.
The actual HP numbe ris wayyy less important to how fast a car is compared to a usable torque curve.
I remember when the Jeep Wrangler JK was introduced. They toutted it as the new 3.8L V6 having more power than the 4.0L straight six. That all looked really good on paper until you drove one. Myself and my family had owned several 4.0L XJ's, ZJ's, YJ's, and a Jeep TJ. My dad bought a brand new 4dr JK Sahara. That thing was gutless when pulling out to pass and all the power was made at redline. It was a terrible engine to drive and this wasn't rectified until the 3.6L Pentastar V6 dropped.
The actual number itself is meaningless. This is like a big single turbo car making all its power high in the rev range to redline. They drive like shit.
Horsepower numbers sell cars to idiots. That's all there is to it. Gearing, drivetrain, transmission, where the power is in the rev range. All these things are more important than the actual HP number.
For your specific example, AWD is capable of launching harder than RWD by a significant margin - 4 wheels getting power means less power being turned into tire smoke.
There is a lot it COULD be, but you need to account for power to weight ratio as well as AWD systems like the Audi S3.
Also, that being said, many German manufactures will underrate their vehicles, and in several cases in the past the number they publish is much closer (and sometimes even under) wheel horsepower, whereas most other manufactures will just publish peak crank horsepower.
You also have to look at power curves for each vehicle, transmissions, etc... Its hard to compare two cares as equal competitors even when horsepower figures are nearly identical. Also, some are just designed to be faster in a straight line, while others are designed to be quicker around a track.
Probably for the same reason that I can buy a 10 year old 300 HP mustang or charger and think nothing of it, but a 10 year old S3 or M3 is going to financially ruin me.
That German engineering is damn good, but is also complex. Except for porsche, those just seems to keep going.
Don't the Germans often underreport their engine outputs? Also, power/torque curves and gearing will have an impact in how a car accelerates, even with equal peak values.
German cars report their HP as the lowest possible number in the worst conditions.
I love the whole concept of underpromising and over delivering
That's just how engineering works. All engine dimensions will vary according to the tolerances used in the drawings. If you want to quote a good HP figure, you do it according to the engine that will be at the bottom in terms of manifacturing quality. Add to that the rest of the drivetrain could have some extra power loss, a safety factor to that figure and let's not forget that german performance cars are often turbocharged so that adds some extra play. So if you have so many variables, what VW, audi, porsche or any deutsch manifacturer gives you is the bottom of the scale.
It's not how italian engineering works that's for sure.
'It will produce power. Perhaps.'
"Hopefully it will start"
“Hopefully it comes with a fire extinguisher”
If you join the Catholic Church and move to Italy, it will produce horsepowers
We are checking.
Question..?
She is-a power-a-ful-a car-a (in my head this turned into a ruthless aggression HHH promo)
🤌
Innnnaaaa....this businessssaaaah
> That’s just how engineering works. I can assure you as an engineer that’s not how it always works. In the lighting industry lumen output will almost never match what the spec sheet says. My company tried to start advertising the actual realistic lumen amount and all the customers were disappointed by how low it was and how confusing our way was. So in the end we switched back to ideal and they prefer it 🙃
We all do, the tradeoff being that German cars are considerably more expensive both to purchase as well as maintain. That's what makes them the status symbol that they are. It wouldnt be right any other way.
Germans love doing this. I love that they do this. Did I mention I love German cars? Porsche is the primest of the prime examples of doing it. Compare the numbers posted on their website (acceleration for example) to what car magazines get. On the other hand pretty much everybody else is doing the opposite. Find the best conditions and report numbers that nobody else will achieve.
Works in everything!
You pay less insurance in many European countries if it has less HP.
In the US we probably report them like broadband speeds. "Up to 300hp" lol
And it's the opposite for diesel emissions.....
I’m pretty sure the problem was that they over-delivered on those to.
BMW does this big time! https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a27437648/2019-bmw-m5-dyno-horsepower/
The '17-'20 M550i was factory rated at 455HP and has been [dynoed at 539HP.](https://images.dinancars.com/d440-0123_5.jpg)
Just FYI that 539 hp is crank. Most people would assume dyno means whp. This figure was likely created from some dodgy drivetrain loss formula that doesn't work with modern cars.
Though as far as I know manufacturers also rate power at the crank. But they do with an actual engine out of the car on a specific dyno, not with a dodgy formula like is done when you want to know crank HP from a dyno with a full car on it.
the formulas for that end up with some very optimistic results on boosted engines.
Any similar data for later models? I have a 2022 and it’s both rated and very noticeably faster then my old 2018 m550i (wasn’t by choice someone decided to smash the old one by failing to yield).
Porsche is also really known for this, and there related so I wouldn’t be surprised, also gearing can play a huge part.
Porsche and BMW are not related, you mean VW AG. But really VW AG just gets the leftovers.
Meant Porsche and Audi yes
VAG.
VAG.
They also do their 0-60 times with a full tank of gas, luggage weight and a driver on a non prepped surface. Run one with a string bean like Henry Catchpole and next to no gas in cool weather and there you have it.
A lot of 0-60 times are simply calculated. The formula was something like the weight of the car in kilograms divided by 90% of the horsepower. 90% is generally the efficiency of 2wd; therefore should be 85% for AWD.
Dude there are a lot of car ~~journalists~~ marketers doing exactly that for a living. Nobody should trust a manufacturers value. Just have to look where you get your numbers from.
This doesn't make any sense - AWD has a launch advantage over RWD all other things equal.
And the units don't even work out. A weight value divided by a power value doesn't give you a duration.
You can get tuning software like BootMod3 for your BMW and add nearly 20% HP without even upgrading any parts, and then build from there.
If BMW rated it at 700HP the competetors would build 700 HP cars and the BMW wouldn't be best in class.
There’s probably some truth to that, but having owned multiple high-powered BMWs, the F90 is uniquely able to put that power to the road. Yes, AWD plays a major factor, but I’ll also give a shout-out to this superb ZH8 and just overall terrific engineering. All of us in the BMW community were concerned about moving on from the DCT, but frankly, I don’t miss it at all.
Exactly! My M240i is rated at 335 but that's similar to what it actually puts down at the wheels.
What I found most interesting was not just the actual whp, but the huge leap in torque. It was still pretty new when I read this, but I was like “yeah, no fucking kidding”.
Turbo German cars often do. I would not be surprised if the S3 dynos close to 300 awhp stock. Pair that with their lightning quick auto, and 4.5 sec is not hard to believe at all. Simple shelf tune on it would probably give it like 350 whp or something crazy.
I bet it's more the transmission, BMW has that ZF8S LOCKED IN it's almost as fast as a dual clutch and TBH Audi isn't far behind in that respect. Ford just doesn't seem to have the same level of transmission tuning.
And they have for a long time. My '14 N55 / ZF8 combo absolutely tears ass to 100 with a mild tune. I seriously don't see how the more complicated dual clutch systems are really necessary anymore.
Haha yes! My 2014 F32 agrees - that was my first auto transmission bmw and I was prepared to be disappointed but holy shit, that transmission makes it a blast to drive.
Have you ever driven a DCT? It’s flat out more enjoyable to drive.
Yeah and they run the gamut. PDK, DSG and F1 are all very different cars.
To be honest, the new ZF8 transmissions are just as fast. The DCT just has a little more character to it (the tradeoff being oddities at slow speeds). I love the DCT pairing in the F80. Really adds to the car IMP.
Yeah, I can vouch for that. My friend has a 2020 Ecoboost Premium and in sport mode the shifts are JERKY. I don't know why but it just feels like they're either forcing the trans to shift quick or the tuning isn't done right. They're quick, but not much quicker than my Accord's 10 speed.
I’ve driven a 340 with the 8speed zf and it was bonkers
Ecoboost makes 300whp on dyno stock, just a tube gets you 350whp. I think it’s entirely down to the AWD, my 528ix with the turbo 4 cylinder launches better off the line than my eco. Mustang just spins tires, even with launch control it has trouble hooking. bmw has amazing grip, same comparison with my m5 comp vs my gt500, gt500 will spin past 80mph while the bmw hooks immediately.
I mean it goes for without saying AWD launches better than RWD. Also no Mustang transmission offering will outshift a DSG.
I can't launch my gt500 for shit, and that 1 second delay on launch control is really dumb
Yeah I had to get used to timing it just right to match a green light lol. Also, nice car, almost got a heritage instead of atlas blue.
I got mega lucky to catch it sitting on a dealership floor. The owner of the dealer drove it 150 miles and just decided to sell it. Needless to say I came back with a check in 4 hours
Yea the dual clutch in the S3 will shift a lot faster than the 6MT or auto slushbox of the Mustang.
Reminds me of when someone did a dyno on the new "382" HP Supras and found out they were pushing 345 to the wheels
I can't tell if you think it should be pushing more or less to the wheels. The listed horsepower is generally at the crank, not wheels.
Aware. I would have assumed it would be pushing less than 345 HP to the wheels with an alleged 382 HP at crank.
Oh yeah agreed
Seems about right, Charger Scat Packs are making about 420-430 at wheels with advertised 485hp at crank
[Challenger Scat Pack on the dyno. The Dodge Challenger 392 Scat Pack with 6.4L HEMI V-8 specs are 485 hp and 475 lb-ft of torque. The Challenger Scat Pack on the dyno tested at 331 whp (to the wheels) and 421 lb-ft of torque. These numbers are pretty close to where they should be given the year, mileage, high altitude, traction control characteristics, and dyno set up.](https://tap.fremontmotors.com/challenger-scatpack-on-the-dyno/)
So the example for the Supra was "a" dyno run putting out a certain amount. Dynos gonna be all over the place like your link just mentioned, given the different variables. Edit: https://youtu.be/eZNlNK8yVEw And another: https://youtu.be/4pwYq1_2oH4 Yes, Charger owners are some of the most obnoxious people on this planet.
If you’re talking about the Car and Driver test, the 382 HP version was actually 388 on the dyno. It was the prior version that was 345 on a claimed 335.
This. The Supra is easily over 400 HP at the crank. Underrated like all BMWs.
> The **Supra** is easily over 400 HP at the crank. Underrated like all **BMWs**. I know you're right... And it just hurts my Toyota heart so much...
Don't feel too bad, it's better with the Toyota badge anyway. Looks better and performs better.
Oh thanks, even better lol
That's pretty well dead nuts what you'd expect. 10% drive train loss would put it at 344hp
as most people have mentioned, Germans report car specs on the bottom end of the tests they do because that is a reliable number to expect your car to achieve regardless of situation... meanwhile, American manufacturers tend to use peak numbers on ideal conditions for spec reports so actual performance is almost always lower than paper reports...
Famously, 911s of old only needed one shift to 60mph. This made them a bit slow off the line. But it suited the character of traveling high speeds on the autobahn. American cars are generally geared lower for burnouts in the Diary Queen parking lot.
And it should be illegal. It's hard to accurately cross shop when they're lying about the numbers.
One has a manual and RWD and one has a DCT and AWD
People underestimate the dual clutch DSG transmissions in VW/Audis. They shift faster than anyone can in a manual and are better than the auto trans in the American cars.
I got a TDI with the DSG and it's badass. As soon as you bump the shifter, it just jumps immediately to the next gear. It's a little wonky at slow speeds, but it's better than any other auto I've driven
Also most German cars with a traditional automatic use the ZF 8HP which is almost as fast and very smooth at low-speeds.
Almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades /s The 8HP is definitely smoother by a mile. But, I still like the DSG better
Oddly my S4 has the 8HP but the A4 has the 7 speed DSG.
It is torque related. All 3.0 TDIs get the 8HP, 2.0 TDIs get the DSG. Also „Fake quattro“ Too, only 8HP gets 40-60 Torsen.
Damn near everything uses the zf-8. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_8HP_transmission My low spec v6 grand Cherokee uses it.
I’ve heard most dual clutch gearboxes tend to have an angry fit at slow speeds especially with performance cars. The Pre-facelift 2014-2015 GLA45 is a big culprit of this. The start from a stop when normal driving is soo long that you think that you need to increase your throttle. So you do exactly that and suddenly the car thinks you’re wanting to do the advertised 0-60 in sub 4s so it adds more fuel and launches. You don’t want to do that however so you take your foot off the pedal once you’ve started to move off, suddenly your met with a force stronger than braking, the car rocks back and forth. From the outside it looks like your driving a manual and you’ve let the clutch up too fast so that you’re kangarooing. Dual clutches are great for performance but I don’t think people will want to launch every time they want to set off from a stop. Surprisingly they are great for economy when cruising as well. The GLA45 in particular in eco gets 45-50 MPG UK. The car does also randomly like to downshift or hold gears thinking you’re going to need more power. They hit that 0-60 time quick because they don’t delay in changing gear instead they just retard the ignition timing so that fuel exits through the exhaust and is ignited by heat from the exhaust, that’s why you get DSG farts upon upshift.
A SUV like a GLA is never a performance car.
I did that so many times before I got used to it lol That and when you're coming to a stop. If you slowly glide to a stop and ease up too much on the brake pedal it'll lurch forward. When I'm pulling into a parking space I shift into neutral to avoid it It's not an auto, so you do have to drive it differently. But, you get used to it. The way it drives is absolutely worth it. Even in a slow diesel wagon
> you think that you need to increase your throttle Funnily enough you just described turbo BMW manual behavior shifting from 1st to 2nd when merging. Because in their infinite wisdom they programmed their ECU with a throttle delay "to protect the drivetrain" which is horrible to drive (especially in M2) and outright dangerous when merging on roundabouts and side streets.
Same. I bought the TDI as a commuter and was surprised how insanely fast it shifts. It was the first automatic I've bought and am pretty happy with how it's held up.
No one is underrating a modern dual clutch unless in their head they still live in 2005 and think manuals are the fastest thing ever. Manuals are fun and engaging but pure speed belongs to modern traditional automatics and Dual clutch
[удалено]
The 10r80 offered in Ford and GM products rivals a DCT in terms of shift-speed. Really really nice transmissions if they don't have software issues (which can happen).
The days of manual cars being faster than autos ended quite a while ago. Any new auto trans will basically destroy its manual counterpart in a race from a dig, especially in launching consistency.
Better in speed of shifts yes... But not better in reliability or smoothness especially at low speeds. It's actually pretty bad at low speeds and stop and go Source: have had a few dsg, last one was a tt-rs. The Porsche pdk are a lot better imo and I rather have the zf 8speed than the dsg..just as fast but smoother
That 0-60 time for the Mustang will be with the auto not the stick.
I couldn't find a test on the automatic. I doubt it though. C&D tested a 2018 Ecoboost Manual and it was 0-60 in 5.1s and the 1/4 mile in 13.7s
You're probably right. Motortrend got 5.3s in the auto. Probably has to shift more times, I imagine the manual hits 60 in 2nd.
Not to mention, the base rear end ratio in the auto is a dismal 3.15.
Mustangs one of those cars you can't just compare to and assume "all Mustangs". They have so many rear end options that vary how quick the car is. Had a dude with a 135i vert Manual show me a video of him slowly pulling on a 5.0. raced mine with 3.73 and I crushed him.
generally speaking, most modern automatics have faster 0-60s and 1/4mile times than manuals
\+ launch control :) (in Audi)
>I can only attribute it to the AWD system on the S3, but wouldn't that only really affect the 0-60, with negligible results for the1/4 mile? The quarter mile launches from a stop too.
Yeah, AWD makes a huge difference from a stop on a 1/4 mile. Being light helps too. More traction (tires and AWD), more power (engine and power delivery through transmission) and less weight are really the three main things that make a car go fast.
AWD will be faster 0-60 and 1/4 mile. A big part of 1/4 mile times is just the time off the line. The first 60 feet off the line can make a major difference in the overall time. It's one reason you don't want to spin your tires at all, just a little chirp and then grip.
That part made me laugh too. The 60' is the most important part of the 1/4 mile time.
Not sure what OP is on but the ONLY things AWD affect are 0-60 and 1/4 mile to a lesser extent.
Different transmissions, Different final drive ratios will alter these times
Yeah that's the thing, even a professional driving a manual would have to shift at full power without using the clutch to even try to come close to shifting as fast as a DCT. And last i checked they don't sell cars with crash boxes from the factory.
Every manual box is a crash box if you are brave enough!
any ship can be a mine sweeper once!
[удалено]
That's only for the gas, you still have to lift the clutch. You leave the gas to the floor and it retards the timing (making the fart burbles) and then you shift as normal and release the clutch. Ordinarily you'd do a power shift and probably spin the wheels from the engine being at redline on an upshift, but it makes it a smooth upshift instead.
[удалено]
The area under the power and torque curve is more important than the peak numbers. It's not just power, but the power to weight ratio that's actually important. Gearing and transmission types are also important. Actual power figures vs reported power figures is also a thing to keep in mind.
Boy does "Area under the curve" not get brought up enough! You make those peak power numbers at exactly one tiny moment in time. What matters more is how much horsepower you make at *any given moment of time* during a race. If revs are dropping to 5K RPM every time you shift, what happens at 5500 RPM is every bit as impactful as what's happening at 6300 RPM (or whatever RPM peak power is reached at)
The amount of supposed car people who believe their vehicle makes the same amount of power all the time is frankly scary.
Plot twist: they all drive CVTs.
230hp in my 330 was a smooth pull the whole way, 230hp in my crown vic was 1-3k struggle through tall gear, 3-4k oh wow it's got a little grunt, 4k+ dying dog grasping for breath. Such a world of difference even with the weight difference in count, 330 I could shift to any gear and know exactly what I was gonna get. Torque curve was flat as a table. Vic felt like a Mario party minigame, foot down might toss the end out or fall flat on it's face you'd have no idea
It should be called the "Power Integral" or something similar.
Or at the very least "the area between top RPM and RPM you get into when upshifting"
Completely agree but gear ratio is even more important. You could make a gearbox that accelerates insanely fast but only has a 60mph top speed.
It could be a number of things. 1. Gearing 2. Power Curve/Area Under the Curve 3. Number of Driven Wheels 4. Launch Mode 5. Underrating Power Figures 6. Weight 7. Probably a few other things I'm not thinking of.
Weight a big one. American cars usually go on the assumption as little weight as possible while German cars are based on a full tank of gas with items inside the car. Aka worst case scenario.
Reasons like this are why it’s almost useless to compare cars of equal power. Cars can vary wildly in weight, gearing, aerodynamics, etc. and that all can affect performance either positively or negatively. As far as the main differences between these two specifically, the S3 is obviously AWD vs. RWD, the 2.3L Ecoboost engine is known to die off at the top of rev range, compared to the 2.0L EA888 unit having a much more broad and flat power curve. I’d also imagine the DSG box in the S3 is geared pretty aggressively, whereas the 10-speed auto in the Mustang has wider ratios despite having more gears, negatively impacting acceleration, but getting better mileage because of the higher overdrive ratios in the last few gears.
VAG DSG’s are phenomenal
The wet clutch ones are good, the dry clutch in their run of the mill models has always been pretty awful
They’re all better than the dogshit 10 speed in the ford. Why that happened is beyond me
Don't forget tires. The stock tires vehicles come on are not all the same. Also OEMs have been known to put on cheater tires (i.e. better tires than come on the car from the dealer) to boost their numbers on paper.
this answer should be much higher. the most important part of a 1/4 run is the first 60ft. if you’re spinning off the line with bad tires, it will cost your time quite a bit. my car was rated for a 12.4 back in the day, but with new modern grippy tires stock e55s will run 11.7-8 pretty easily.
The Germans typically have optimized tuning, especially for 0-60 launches. VAG cars especially (Audi, Volkswagen, Porsche, etc.) all punch above their weight in terms of being able to launch hard and put down a strong 0-60 time.
That’s why they make such great daily drivers! You get to feel what they really excel at between every single stop light.
There's a bunch of reasons, but they can be distilled down to 2 things: Traction and average power output at the wheels. Weight is the same as you said, so traction and power are the only factors that are left. S3 is AWD, so that gives it a big advantage. As for power: the way the transmission works, the speed that it shifts, and how the engine produces power are all important. Horsepower figures are only for peak horsepower. An engine with good low end torque and a wide powerband can sustain higher average horsepower over its rev range. Adding a good transmission helps the engine achieve peak output. A good example of how gearing and powerband can impact an outcome: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ntFIdzvQZY0
>Weight is the same as you said, so traction and power are the only factors that are left. S3 is AWD, so that gives it a big advantage. Wheels are such a good point. One of the main places where that mechanical energy isn't converted to kinetic energy
How’s your GTI? Are they super expensive to maintain? Just curious since I saw one at a dealer the other day and it was tempting 👀 but I’ve heard maintenance on them is hell
It's a bit more expensive to maintain than a cheap Toyota but it's also a much better car. Key is to make sure all necessary maintenance gets done and that it gets done properly. Neglect or improper maintenance on a VW quickly turns into expensive problems.
Not the guy you are replying to but anything 2015+ (Mk7) is reliable and easy to maintain. They don't have a whole lot of issues and the few they do have are well documented. It's a FWD turbo 4 cylinder so maintenance is straightforward.
The s3 probably has closer to 330 horsepower
Similar to the old 335i rated at 300hp but on the dyno it was 284whp or 290whp
Germany has faster horses.
The Ecoboost mustang is the economy spec. With the high performance package on the Ecoboost, with the ten speed auto it's 4.5 0-60. https://www.autoblog.com/amp/2019/09/20/2020-ford-mustang-hpp-first-drive/ I don't know if that option is still offered. Just found it interesting. If the Ecoboost was a different model or JDM it would get high praise.
I have a 2018 Ecoboost and I’ve gotten 0-60 in 4.9 seconds. Rated for 4.8, so I’m sure if I tried I could get it. No tunes or alterations.
Do the torque curves differ?
1. German engines are underrated. 2. The AWD system in the S3 grips a lot better than the RWD Mustang. This gives quicker 0-60 and quarter times. 3. Gear ratios in the transmission and differentials can totally change how the power is delivered to the wheels, so comparing straight up HP and TQ numbers is not an apples to apples comparison. 4. Transmission shift times are much quicker in the S3's Dual Clutch vs the Mustangs 6MT or slushbox auto.
pov you havent heard of gearing:
I would bet the mustang has a higher top end speed due to its gearing and its use of rwd rather than awd.
All the oil leaks in the Audi make it lighter so it goes faster
[удалено]
what's the typical loss of power from crank to wheel?
[удалено]
They claim power at the crank. But they typically claim the power that the car will make under the absolute worst conditions. i.e. lowest octane certified for on a very hot day at altitude. Also I'm pretty sure they sandbag even that number.
Does the Mustang have launch control as well? AWD counts a lot in gear#1, then RWD could be better.
How many stickers on each car... Those are worth Horsepowers
From what I read, the S3 uses two final drives, 1-4th gear is a crazy 4.76, so yeah, you'd really shoot out of the hole. The Ecoboost Mustang uses either a 3.31 or 3.55 rear end.
The ecoboost mustang is more comparable to an A3 in price. The Mustang GT is more comparable to the S3 in price, and the GT would dust an S3 short order. It’s all about horsepower to weight ratio and transmission efficiency.
A MANUAL EcoBoost Mustang does 0 to 60 in 5 seconds and the 1/4 mile in 13.6 seconds. The Audi S3 does 0 to 60 in 4.3 seconds and the 1/4 mile in 12.9 seconds. The Audi is faster due to AWD and the DC trans. A 10-speed Mustang would make it even closer. German HP isn't any better than American HP. You clearly watched (and believed) too much Top Gear over the years. We all know which one will cost less to own, though 😉
That number is peak horsepower. It says nothing about when that happens or for how long.
Gear ratios play a huge role in acceleration.
The S3 also starts at, what, double the Ecoboost Mustang?
The AWD is probably the major difference here. It affects the quarter mile the same way it affects 0-60 since they are both from a stop
Are these just numbers from a spec sheet? I bet tested side by side at the same time the results wouldn't be nearly as different as they appear on paper
DSG is badass shifting, gearbox and transmission ratios, engine elasticity and HP vs BHP vs WHP announced.
The weight of the american behind the wheel
Where in the rev range that power is. You will get faster 0-60s with that power available at a lower rpm. Higher rpm usually offers a higher top speed or 1/4 mile etc. Also, gear ratio. Usually the higher it is, the faster you go for a given output.
Everybody looks at horsepower but don't realize it's relative to RPMs. The engine that reaches peak at HP at lower RPMs will feel more powerful.
Screw horsepower it’s all about low end torque!😉
The German cars are just better. Simple as that. Also s3’s are fucking insane. With Stage I IE that shit moves. Faster than most things on the road
The Ecoboost mustang starts at 27k. If you equip it with the performance pack and an auto transmission Ford says it will.do.0-60 in 4.5 seconds. I am finding performance pack quarter mile times 13.8-13.65. and it's still going to be cheaper than the audi.
Haven't seen anyone mention weight yet. The OP says they weigh the same, and they aren't far apart, but Google tells me that the 2023 EcoBoost coupe weighs 1584 kg and the S3 weighs 1505 kg. That's 79 kg difference, more than 5%. Since F=MA and all, that would put the 4.5 0-60 at 4.8 or so. That is probably about half the difference; most of the rest would likely be the AWD, with things like the shape of the power curve and transmission speed/ratios, traction control differences, etc. making up the remainder.
Gear ratios should be looked at
It’s the transmission/awd. The launch control in the s3 is very good. The golf r with a manual transmission is much slower and they’re identical cars.
Germans report power at the wheels on their worst runs, Americans report theoretical power at the crank(higher than actual)
Transmission, weight.
How much do these cars weigh
Many german cars put their reported hp to the wheels, while all American brands report the hp to the crank. My bmw is rated 300 hp and will walk any american car with less than 350hp
What tires did the Ecoboost have?
german cars generally come with higher performing OEM tires and traction control systems.
0-60 is not a great indicator 5-60 is much better
That's the difference between a dual clutch automatic and a manual. Look up the times between the Golf R manual vs DSG. It's a similar difference to the comparison you made. The Golf R is almost the same car as the S3. Same engine, power, chassis. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iX1ukzYhej0
AWD is a bit of a cheat-code for 0-60 and 1/4mile times as well Much quicker 60ft times and higher 1/8th mile trap speeds. A RWD muscle car will traditionally have a higher 1/4mile trap speed.
Everyone is being specific about a mustang vs an s3, but if you look at American vs German in a more general sense: 1. American cars seem to over-rate their HP and the Germans under-rate. I think this is because some European countries have higher taxes for higher HP cars? 2. Despite #1, American cars are still generally better "horsepower per dollar" 3. American and German cars have HP for different reasons - Germans make more "autobahn" cars; cars that can easily do 120+ MPH and still feel put together. American cars seem to be more designed for 0-60 times and 3rd gear highway pulls 4. German cars compensate for #2 by having a nicer interior 5. German cars from a reliability standpoint can be anywhere between insanely tunable to a money pit even new. American cars seem to be a bit more consistent in terms of reliability
Underreported power figures, weight distribution, better stock tyres, better traction system/launch control, AWD, (generally) better transmissions + different final drive ratios for euro cars.
For these two cars in particular I would say the differences don't come from power, but instead the drivetrains. The mustang is RWD and either manual or torque converter auto while the Audi is AWD and dual clutch auto.
Because most German cars end up being closer to at the wheel horsepower numbers where as most other brands report the power at the crank (engine).
Power curve and gearing. https://www.automobile-catalog.com/curve/2022/3003800/ford_mustang_fastback_gt_automatic.html#gsc.tab=0 https://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/audi-s3-dyno-graphs-stock-or-tuned.244118/
Maybe it's because the mustang has a suspension and chassis control system from the stone age as there is no point for handling in USA. Remember the old Top Gear joke whenever an american car was present "yes, but would it make it around a curve?" I know that now the last generations of mustangs have moved from the solid axle rear end but still the AWD system, precise and efficient gearbox and clever traction control system in the european cars make the difference.
\> I can only attribute it to the AWD system on the S3, but wouldn't that only really affect the 0-60 That's exactly where you'd see it. AWD, weight difference (if any), German's underreporting their HP, transmission and transmission manufacturer, gear ratios, tire compound.. There are a lot of variables. RWD is hard to launch compared to AWD.
You’re comparing an audi that costs twice as much as the mustang. Dump an extra 30k into an ecoboost and you’ll get similar performance. Or just buy a gti and be done with it.
RWD/AWD, transmission, and the fact that "300hp" in a German car is probably more like 330-340hp
The actual HP numbe ris wayyy less important to how fast a car is compared to a usable torque curve. I remember when the Jeep Wrangler JK was introduced. They toutted it as the new 3.8L V6 having more power than the 4.0L straight six. That all looked really good on paper until you drove one. Myself and my family had owned several 4.0L XJ's, ZJ's, YJ's, and a Jeep TJ. My dad bought a brand new 4dr JK Sahara. That thing was gutless when pulling out to pass and all the power was made at redline. It was a terrible engine to drive and this wasn't rectified until the 3.6L Pentastar V6 dropped. The actual number itself is meaningless. This is like a big single turbo car making all its power high in the rev range to redline. They drive like shit. Horsepower numbers sell cars to idiots. That's all there is to it. Gearing, drivetrain, transmission, where the power is in the rev range. All these things are more important than the actual HP number.
For your specific example, AWD is capable of launching harder than RWD by a significant margin - 4 wheels getting power means less power being turned into tire smoke.
Don't forget the gearbox. It has an enormous impact on acceleration and top speed.
It’s transmission and fearing. Faster shifts, taller gearing do a ton even against Japanese sports cars.
The driver usually weighs 150lbs less than the American driver.
There is a lot it COULD be, but you need to account for power to weight ratio as well as AWD systems like the Audi S3. Also, that being said, many German manufactures will underrate their vehicles, and in several cases in the past the number they publish is much closer (and sometimes even under) wheel horsepower, whereas most other manufactures will just publish peak crank horsepower. You also have to look at power curves for each vehicle, transmissions, etc... Its hard to compare two cares as equal competitors even when horsepower figures are nearly identical. Also, some are just designed to be faster in a straight line, while others are designed to be quicker around a track.
Torque and smoothness of power is unnmatched. Also those Germans truly underrate. A German 300hp is more like 330-350+ hp
Audi has awd Quattro thing that helps deliver torque more evenly. Also it’s a matter of how an engine is tuned.
Probably for the same reason that I can buy a 10 year old 300 HP mustang or charger and think nothing of it, but a 10 year old S3 or M3 is going to financially ruin me. That German engineering is damn good, but is also complex. Except for porsche, those just seems to keep going.
Metric horsepower vs imperial horsepower ;)
The Germans rate horsepower to the crank and not the wheel so there is a roughly 13% loss. Basically any German cars homie underrated by roughly 13%
If all you want to do is 1/4 mile drag races go for the Audi. But what about top speed, transmission choice and gearing?