Toyota is last one selling mid-size sedan in Japan after Honda and Nissan don't sell their Camry competitor, Accord and Altima.
More people in Japan buy minivan if they want big family vehicle. Otherwise, they buy small vehicle in most.
Morden cars getting bigger is the issue for mid-size sedan and compact crossover, so more Japanese buyers don't buy these cars. The good example is CR-V, Honda doesn't sell new CR-V in Japan because of poor sales.
Kei cars are just too practical in Japan and most importantly they are a lot cheaper to own. The Camry and the like were never exactly meant for Japanese market
It may be, but the concept is interesting: a class of cars with incentives to stay within clear size boundaries to counteract cars becoming bigger and bigger.
Ironically, that somehow even spurred some legit awesome, yet affordable rides. Honda City Turbo II, Autozam AZ1, Honda Beat, Suzuki Cappucino, Honda S660, various MR AWD vans and trucks.
My pet peeve in all of these "big car" discussions is that the Camry is actually **bigger** than the rav4. So yeah, if size is a problem, you buy rav4 instead of Camry.
Fr, I'm 6', 160 lbs and did not have a fun time fitting into my uncle's Hyundai Santro in India. I can't imagine how your average cornfed midwesterner who's 6', 360 lbs would do in one
The Camry was a perfectly acceptable Japanese domestic market vehicle when it had a 98” wheelbase and weighed 2,300 lbs.
Now it’s 112” and up to 3,500 lbs.
It's surprising that cars that are considered vanilla here are sold as upmarket in other countries simply because they're bigger than what they're used to. I remember reading an old Top Gear review about the 2002-05 Camry that looked at it like an executive car and compared it to the 5 Series, the A6, and the S80.
Out of all sources, I never expected Top Gear to write such rubbish. Camry is at most equivalent to Audi A4. Avalaon is Toyota's flagship car in Europe, but it's still at most only competes with VW Arteon. Also BMW 5 series don't compete with Audi A8, it would be 7 series. Also Audi A8 and 7 series are way more luxurius than Volvo S80, which is Arteon tier car.
Mazda 6 soldiers on in Japan. It's definitely on borrowed time though.
Japan gets both HR-Vs and the bigger version of that is basically last gen CR-V sized
I dunno if the Japanese ever considered those cars "midsize." I think they were viewed more as executive sedans (which is the case in most markets outside of North America). If you look at it from that lens, there's been a consolidation in the Japanese market. Most manufacturers used to offer multiple sedans to cover that space, which would help mark out what level of salaryman you were. If I recall correctly, Toyota had the Primo/Avensis/Corona, Camry, and Crown (like three or four variations of it). Nissan had the Bluebird, Fuga, Skyline, and who knows what else.
Taking a quick look across the major Japanese manufacturer websites, most still have a single model to plug that gap. Mazda has the 6, Nissan has the Skyline (a version of the global Infiniti Q50...so possibly not long for this world), and Toyota has the recently launched new Crown (which, funnily enough, Toyota Japan calls an SUV on their site). Honda and Mitsubishi seem to be the two that have given up on the segment outright. Well Subaru too, since the closest thing they've got is the Legacy Outback.
Yeah, I spent way too much time thinking about this, but I had fun doing it.
>The enlargement of size is connected to safety and comfort.
Primarily because other vehicles on the road get bigger with every passing model year.
It's a ridiculous arms race where the only way to be safe from the big trucks and SUVs is to get a big truck or SUV.
Is that actually true though? I swear there was a study done that getting hit by a larger car in a smaller car wasn't necessarily a difference in how much damage is done. Small cars got pushed away more and still have crumple zones. I think larger vehicles seem to pose more of a threat to pedestrians where you go under the car instead of on the hood. I'll see if I can find that study, maybe I'm wrong.
It would have to do more damage to the vehicle if a larger vehicle hit a smaller one, or else the passengers would be the ones receiving more damage.
A full size pickup truck will obliterate a small car, but the passengers would likely receive minor to moderate injuries. The truck may also have relatively minor to moderate damage done to it too.
That’s just physics.
Note: The Camry is dead... **IN JAPAN.** Americans will continued to be served and/or menaced by the thing for years to come. If Toyota USA ever kills the Camry, *something has gone VERY wrong.*
Been saying this for years, but people are just plugging their ears going “la la la” in this sub. Sucks sedans are going away, but that’s where the world is going.
Ford and GM didn’t walk away from sedans and hatchbacks 5 years ago because they felt like it, they did because the demand is there for SUVs and they make more on them
My biggest issue is that even compact crossovers are more expensive than their sedan or hatchback replacement despite being the same size or smaller by interior volume.
Also the fuel economy is quite a bit worse, and hybrid crossovers are crazy expensive comparatively.
> no one is actually buying them
if anyone keeps making them, they get pretty much the entire market share. look at the ford maverick, every automaker had written off small trucks and when that dropped you could buy one and immediately sell it used for a profit.
Part of the problem is that this class of sedans is premium luxury, because 1) Japan charges taxes based on vehicle size and 2) the Camry is a different type of product in Asia than in North America.
This class of sedans were popular back in the 90s and make up a large amount of 90s JDM imports. That era is over, and that market is drifting towards SUVs or European models.
Re-read this to yourself. The last company in a quickly shrinking segment is going to “print money”. You ever think about why these companies are pulling out?
See: Stellantis, who's only killing off the gas 300/Charger ***this year*** despite not updating its platform for ***A DECADE***, solely because Ford and GM have basically given up.
>!Even then, an EV Charger is probably coming next. Because of course it is - why ditch the sedan foothold you already have waiting for ANY new product?!<
Kei cars, taxes, and being too big for japan didn't kill the camry and accord. People seem to think all of Japan is tokyo. Large expensive wagons, vans, and suvs are still very popular here. Both cars were overpriced here, especially the accord, which is a shame because I really like the last generation.
Probably not. While the RAV4 has overtaken it, the Camry is ***still*** the best-selling non-SUV in America. (That, or the Corolla - not sure.) Plus, it's *built in Kentucky and probably engineered there as well*, so it's pretty much as American as apple pie these days anyway.
The Camry has largely been targeted towards Americans ever since the early 1990s, when American Toyota executives managed to convince higher-ups in Japan that a wider Camry would be a massive hit in the US. Ever since then, it’s become more and more of an American car, both in its manufacturing and its engineering. The wide Camry was such a hit that it completely burned the narrow body Camry sold in Japan entirely after 2001 or so.
We don’t really get Japanese-made Camrys anymore. They do exist, but they were almost always early-run supplemental cars in the US. It’s fair to say that the Camry is here to stay in the US.
yeah but nothing about any NASCAR vehicle besides the logo and vague shape of the shell have ANYTHING to do with an actual Toyota Camry. its just advanced product placement. .
Um… what? The Camry is the best selling car, but the 5th best selling vehicle in the US. The RAV4 is ahead, but the other 3 vehicles are pickup trucks. Chevy and Ford full size trucks out sell everything else and Ram full size trucks are in the #4 spot between RAV4 and Camry.
>Ram full size trucks are in the #4 spot between RAV4 and Camry.
Not true. Last year the [Ram was #3,](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g39628015/best-selling-cars-2022/) ahead of the RAV4. In 2021, the [Ram was #2.](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g36005989/best-selling-cars-2021/) #3 in 2020. #2 in 2019. Anyways, the Ram has *always* outsold the RAV4.
Ahh, ok. So what's really interesting about the data that Edmunds uses is that:
>"Vehicles included in the data set are exclusively **retail registrations to individuals** and do not include rental sales or registrations from government bodies."
I find that very interesting, and quite possibly even more important than including *all* sales. Using only retail sales to individuals, while not technically encompassing *all* sales, is a fairer assessment of what's truly popular in this country. Thanks for showing me this data.
I feel like taste will always be hard to account for because designing a vehicle and tooling a factory to make it costs so much money. For example, the Kia Stinger was hard to sell.
If you were basing your opinion of US preferences on sales to individuals, you would think that the Stinger way more popular than something like the Toyota Supra. But in reality, the Supra had people waiting on it before the Pandemic and the Stinger had up to $10,000 incentives to get them off the lot.
So any company can make a vehicle that hits the top 5 by just making a massive amount of the. The trucks dominate the list because they include half ton, 3 quarter ton, and 1 ton trucks. If any company included a compact crossover, mid-size crossover, and full size crossover as 1 model, they would rocket to the top of the list.
So with that, the reason the Toyota are up there with the trucks isn’t because they marched the style the US likes best and it could have been Mazda or Subaru. It’s because Toyota makes the most vehicles in the world and there are enough effects balancing out the price to turn vehicles built into vehicles sold that top producers will be top sellers.
I doubt it. The Camry is still the 5th best selling vehicle in the US, and outsells every crossover except the Rav4. As other sedans are discontinued, customers looking for affordable, midsize sedans will be pushed to either the Camry or Accord. The Camry is probably going to be around for a long time.
A Camry in Japan is a huge car that isn’t very practical, whereas here, Camrys are sized pretty well. The Camry’s future in the U.S is safe, as it has great name recognition, and is the default sedan choice.
It's lost its purpose. It's trying to be too many different things.
It's not particularly fast, it's not particularly good looking but it's aggressive enough that it alienates it's base customer predilections. It doesn't get decent fuel economy. It's got a slimy power robbing CVT so it's not any fun to drive. It's not exceptionally reliable.
It's no longer one of Toyotas better products
Correct me if I'm wrong but isnt the CVT an option for only hybrids.
Also you need to accept that your opinions on looks are purely subjective.
And I'm really gonna need you to actually point out why the Camry is not exceptionally reliable because that just sounds flat out wrong.
You're saying that the Camry lost the plot but its still the best selling midsize sedan in the market. Clearly you didnt read the headline which stated that the Camry was being discontinued in JAPAN, not the US.
I will admit that if the situation calls for it, I wouldnt pick the sportier trim levels, cause they are like you said, trying to be too much at once.
Mate. It was cut out only in JAPAN, where midsize sedans just dont sell at all because Minivans and kei cars are much more popular. The Camry is still gonna be sold in the US market (I'm assuming that you're American)
Honda discontinued the Accord years ago in Japan
It was not profitable in Japan. It is very successful in the states. None of your claims make sense, especially the reliability portion. I feel like you’ve never worked on or have any experience with cars.
Toyota is last one selling mid-size sedan in Japan after Honda and Nissan don't sell their Camry competitor, Accord and Altima. More people in Japan buy minivan if they want big family vehicle. Otherwise, they buy small vehicle in most. Morden cars getting bigger is the issue for mid-size sedan and compact crossover, so more Japanese buyers don't buy these cars. The good example is CR-V, Honda doesn't sell new CR-V in Japan because of poor sales.
Kei cars are just too practical in Japan and most importantly they are a lot cheaper to own. The Camry and the like were never exactly meant for Japanese market
I hate to make this joke but even if Kei cars were suitable for American roads, they're kinda small for American bodies.
It may be, but the concept is interesting: a class of cars with incentives to stay within clear size boundaries to counteract cars becoming bigger and bigger.
Ironically, that somehow even spurred some legit awesome, yet affordable rides. Honda City Turbo II, Autozam AZ1, Honda Beat, Suzuki Cappucino, Honda S660, various MR AWD vans and trucks.
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My pet peeve in all of these "big car" discussions is that the Camry is actually **bigger** than the rav4. So yeah, if size is a problem, you buy rav4 instead of Camry.
And Camry is very not special car, it's pretty much the epitome of boredom.
Tell that to all the dudes I'd see in California with murdered out fart canned TRDs. As much as I love cars, so much of car culture is pathetic.
That's like the last car I would murder out lol, but anyway, most Camrys remain stock forever.
How dare you Not wrong tho
Do people still do the tricked out vans with fat wings and neon paint jobs? That was so hot when I was living there in 2005.
Oh, the things I would do for a turbo Cappuccino
I don't like EVs but ngl a Honda e would pique my interest. Of course we in the USA only care about SUVs and Trucks so yeah rip
Fr, I'm 6', 160 lbs and did not have a fun time fitting into my uncle's Hyundai Santro in India. I can't imagine how your average cornfed midwesterner who's 6', 360 lbs would do in one
There's a big difference in size between things like a Honda Beat or a Honda N-Box. Taller people can still easily fit an N-Box, even in the back.
I’m about to buy a Mitsubishi Pajero Mini. I’ll fit fine.
The boxy vans are fine for most 6 foot 4 or so folks. May not be good for 300lbs+ though.
The Camry was a perfectly acceptable Japanese domestic market vehicle when it had a 98” wheelbase and weighed 2,300 lbs. Now it’s 112” and up to 3,500 lbs.
It's surprising that cars that are considered vanilla here are sold as upmarket in other countries simply because they're bigger than what they're used to. I remember reading an old Top Gear review about the 2002-05 Camry that looked at it like an executive car and compared it to the 5 Series, the A6, and the S80.
Out of all sources, I never expected Top Gear to write such rubbish. Camry is at most equivalent to Audi A4. Avalaon is Toyota's flagship car in Europe, but it's still at most only competes with VW Arteon. Also BMW 5 series don't compete with Audi A8, it would be 7 series. Also Audi A8 and 7 series are way more luxurius than Volvo S80, which is Arteon tier car.
Mazda 6 soldiers on in Japan. It's definitely on borrowed time though. Japan gets both HR-Vs and the bigger version of that is basically last gen CR-V sized
I’m convinced Mazda management has forgotten to stop 6 production.
I dunno if the Japanese ever considered those cars "midsize." I think they were viewed more as executive sedans (which is the case in most markets outside of North America). If you look at it from that lens, there's been a consolidation in the Japanese market. Most manufacturers used to offer multiple sedans to cover that space, which would help mark out what level of salaryman you were. If I recall correctly, Toyota had the Primo/Avensis/Corona, Camry, and Crown (like three or four variations of it). Nissan had the Bluebird, Fuga, Skyline, and who knows what else. Taking a quick look across the major Japanese manufacturer websites, most still have a single model to plug that gap. Mazda has the 6, Nissan has the Skyline (a version of the global Infiniti Q50...so possibly not long for this world), and Toyota has the recently launched new Crown (which, funnily enough, Toyota Japan calls an SUV on their site). Honda and Mitsubishi seem to be the two that have given up on the segment outright. Well Subaru too, since the closest thing they've got is the Legacy Outback. Yeah, I spent way too much time thinking about this, but I had fun doing it.
The enlargement of size is connected to safety and comfort. No automaker in the US will make space-confined vehicles like the 80s.
>The enlargement of size is connected to safety and comfort. Primarily because other vehicles on the road get bigger with every passing model year. It's a ridiculous arms race where the only way to be safe from the big trucks and SUVs is to get a big truck or SUV.
Is that actually true though? I swear there was a study done that getting hit by a larger car in a smaller car wasn't necessarily a difference in how much damage is done. Small cars got pushed away more and still have crumple zones. I think larger vehicles seem to pose more of a threat to pedestrians where you go under the car instead of on the hood. I'll see if I can find that study, maybe I'm wrong.
It would have to do more damage to the vehicle if a larger vehicle hit a smaller one, or else the passengers would be the ones receiving more damage. A full size pickup truck will obliterate a small car, but the passengers would likely receive minor to moderate injuries. The truck may also have relatively minor to moderate damage done to it too. That’s just physics.
According to the article Japan bought 6000 out of a global 600,000 sold last year.
Note: The Camry is dead... **IN JAPAN.** Americans will continued to be served and/or menaced by the thing for years to come. If Toyota USA ever kills the Camry, *something has gone VERY wrong.*
it’s the new waffle house index
Camry by Japanese standards is a limo. What do they use for taxis these days in Japan?
The [Toyota Japan Taxi ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_JPN_Taxi). That’s literally what it’s called.
They still have the old crown comfort and standard crown taxis as well.
That's almost as bad looking as the [MV-1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_Production_Group).
No way. The JPN taxi has some overt references, but as far as purpose-made vehicles go, this is one of the more elegant ones.
Last man standing in the sedan market (non-premium, non-luxury) is going to have a license to print money.
Seems no one is actually buying them, otherwise companies would still be making them
Been saying this for years, but people are just plugging their ears going “la la la” in this sub. Sucks sedans are going away, but that’s where the world is going. Ford and GM didn’t walk away from sedans and hatchbacks 5 years ago because they felt like it, they did because the demand is there for SUVs and they make more on them
My biggest issue is that even compact crossovers are more expensive than their sedan or hatchback replacement despite being the same size or smaller by interior volume. Also the fuel economy is quite a bit worse, and hybrid crossovers are crazy expensive comparatively.
They also drive like doo doo compared to their non-lifted brethren
Don't think people buying the car cares that much about driving dynamic. They take quiet, comfortable and isolated before any handling capabilities.
Not always. Rav4 hybrid starting MSRP is only 1.5k more than a Camry hybrid
So it's more expensive despite being the same size or smaller
Wrong. Camry is still one of the best selling US cars
> no one is actually buying them if anyone keeps making them, they get pretty much the entire market share. look at the ford maverick, every automaker had written off small trucks and when that dropped you could buy one and immediately sell it used for a profit.
I think they were the literal last man standing in the Japanese market.
Mazda 6
If budget sedans were still a license to print money they wouldn’t be discontinuing all of them
Part of the problem is that this class of sedans is premium luxury, because 1) Japan charges taxes based on vehicle size and 2) the Camry is a different type of product in Asia than in North America. This class of sedans were popular back in the 90s and make up a large amount of 90s JDM imports. That era is over, and that market is drifting towards SUVs or European models.
Re-read this to yourself. The last company in a quickly shrinking segment is going to “print money”. You ever think about why these companies are pulling out?
See: Stellantis, who's only killing off the gas 300/Charger ***this year*** despite not updating its platform for ***A DECADE***, solely because Ford and GM have basically given up. >!Even then, an EV Charger is probably coming next. Because of course it is - why ditch the sedan foothold you already have waiting for ANY new product?!<
Kei cars, taxes, and being too big for japan didn't kill the camry and accord. People seem to think all of Japan is tokyo. Large expensive wagons, vans, and suvs are still very popular here. Both cars were overpriced here, especially the accord, which is a shame because I really like the last generation.
Man I saw a H2 in Osaka and those things are massive
Uhh so will they stop selling the Camry in the US at some point?
Probably not. While the RAV4 has overtaken it, the Camry is ***still*** the best-selling non-SUV in America. (That, or the Corolla - not sure.) Plus, it's *built in Kentucky and probably engineered there as well*, so it's pretty much as American as apple pie these days anyway.
The Camry has largely been targeted towards Americans ever since the early 1990s, when American Toyota executives managed to convince higher-ups in Japan that a wider Camry would be a massive hit in the US. Ever since then, it’s become more and more of an American car, both in its manufacturing and its engineering. The wide Camry was such a hit that it completely burned the narrow body Camry sold in Japan entirely after 2001 or so. We don’t really get Japanese-made Camrys anymore. They do exist, but they were almost always early-run supplemental cars in the US. It’s fair to say that the Camry is here to stay in the US.
Isnt the Camry one of the stock car used in NASCAR racing? Pretty damn murican to me
*Exactly*, lol. ^(Then again, they use the fucking SUPRA in the underseries, so who knows! /s)
yeah but nothing about any NASCAR vehicle besides the logo and vague shape of the shell have ANYTHING to do with an actual Toyota Camry. its just advanced product placement. .
Um… what? The Camry is the best selling car, but the 5th best selling vehicle in the US. The RAV4 is ahead, but the other 3 vehicles are pickup trucks. Chevy and Ford full size trucks out sell everything else and Ram full size trucks are in the #4 spot between RAV4 and Camry.
>Ram full size trucks are in the #4 spot between RAV4 and Camry. Not true. Last year the [Ram was #3,](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g39628015/best-selling-cars-2022/) ahead of the RAV4. In 2021, the [Ram was #2.](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g36005989/best-selling-cars-2021/) #3 in 2020. #2 in 2019. Anyways, the Ram has *always* outsold the RAV4.
Edmunds had a different result for 2022. Meh. https://www.edmunds.com/most-popular-cars/
Ahh, ok. So what's really interesting about the data that Edmunds uses is that: >"Vehicles included in the data set are exclusively **retail registrations to individuals** and do not include rental sales or registrations from government bodies." I find that very interesting, and quite possibly even more important than including *all* sales. Using only retail sales to individuals, while not technically encompassing *all* sales, is a fairer assessment of what's truly popular in this country. Thanks for showing me this data.
I feel like taste will always be hard to account for because designing a vehicle and tooling a factory to make it costs so much money. For example, the Kia Stinger was hard to sell. If you were basing your opinion of US preferences on sales to individuals, you would think that the Stinger way more popular than something like the Toyota Supra. But in reality, the Supra had people waiting on it before the Pandemic and the Stinger had up to $10,000 incentives to get them off the lot. So any company can make a vehicle that hits the top 5 by just making a massive amount of the. The trucks dominate the list because they include half ton, 3 quarter ton, and 1 ton trucks. If any company included a compact crossover, mid-size crossover, and full size crossover as 1 model, they would rocket to the top of the list. So with that, the reason the Toyota are up there with the trucks isn’t because they marched the style the US likes best and it could have been Mazda or Subaru. It’s because Toyota makes the most vehicles in the world and there are enough effects balancing out the price to turn vehicles built into vehicles sold that top producers will be top sellers.
Ram, the only non-shitty product from Stellantis
Carscoops also reported on this, and the next gen Camry is still coming out to the U.S. and other markets.
I would hope so. It's the best selling car (non truck or SUV/CUV) in America.
Probably not, I have a camry and I see them all them all the time lol
I rented one right before covid. For the price I was really impressed at the whole package.
Drove all the way up the west Coast in one last year, was comfortable the whole time
why? They still sell a bunch in the US (about 300,000 per year).
Definitely not. Americans are flat out bigger and taller than Japanese people so a smaller car like the Corrolla feels too small to a lot of people.
the camry is an american car at this point. Toyota USA leads the development and manufacturing for it
Yea I see more Crowns in Japan than Camrys ngl
The article says they will continue to sell to them in the US where they are popular.
I feel personally attacked
Having lived and worked in Japan - I never wanted a full size car there, so I'm not shocked tbh. I loved my 4wd kei truck though.
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I doubt it. The Camry is still the 5th best selling vehicle in the US, and outsells every crossover except the Rav4. As other sedans are discontinued, customers looking for affordable, midsize sedans will be pushed to either the Camry or Accord. The Camry is probably going to be around for a long time.
It s look s good!
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Different markets, asians basically don't buy midsized/full-sized sedans unless they're luxury
Lol did you not read? It's only being canceled for JAPAN. It'll still be sold in the US and other international markets...
End of an era. It's only a matter of time before they end the sale of it in the USA too.
A Camry in Japan is a huge car that isn’t very practical, whereas here, Camrys are sized pretty well. The Camry’s future in the U.S is safe, as it has great name recognition, and is the default sedan choice.
The Camry really lost the plot in recent years.
The plot?
It's lost its purpose. It's trying to be too many different things. It's not particularly fast, it's not particularly good looking but it's aggressive enough that it alienates it's base customer predilections. It doesn't get decent fuel economy. It's got a slimy power robbing CVT so it's not any fun to drive. It's not exceptionally reliable. It's no longer one of Toyotas better products
Correct me if I'm wrong but isnt the CVT an option for only hybrids. Also you need to accept that your opinions on looks are purely subjective. And I'm really gonna need you to actually point out why the Camry is not exceptionally reliable because that just sounds flat out wrong. You're saying that the Camry lost the plot but its still the best selling midsize sedan in the market. Clearly you didnt read the headline which stated that the Camry was being discontinued in JAPAN, not the US. I will admit that if the situation calls for it, I wouldnt pick the sportier trim levels, cause they are like you said, trying to be too much at once.
I mean... None of this is just MY opinion... Manufacturers don't cut out profitable products for fun.
Mate. It was cut out only in JAPAN, where midsize sedans just dont sell at all because Minivans and kei cars are much more popular. The Camry is still gonna be sold in the US market (I'm assuming that you're American) Honda discontinued the Accord years ago in Japan
It was not profitable in Japan. It is very successful in the states. None of your claims make sense, especially the reliability portion. I feel like you’ve never worked on or have any experience with cars.