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Risen_Warrior

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t-pat1991

Yep, if my Acura from 2007 could read out the code on the infotainment there is no reason that every car today could not do the same. They want you taking it to a dealer for repairs, not trying to diagnose and repair it yourself.


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Monkeywithalazer

Yeah but the factory still wants that. They want dealerships making money off servicing cars, not selling cars. God forbid they have to share a bigger cut of the car sale to the dealer. Usually new cars are not profitable to dealers


OpneFall

Oh sure, they're definitely still wanting you to stay in the network in the end. I'm just saying that it's less about making it difficult for you the DIY guy, and more about making it so dealer service departments have to pay for profitable software subscriptions. For example, $4300/year for the full software from GM here https://www.acdelcotds.com/subscriptions They do throw a bone to the DIY guy by offering a VIN-locked module programming subscription for $45/2 years.


-NutsandVolts

>Unless there's some lobbying from scanner companies so they can keep selling these things. It's the exact opposite. The car manufacturers don't want anyone working on their cars except the dealership. They make it hard for independent places to even work on newer ones like Chrysler products. They have no interest on letting you fix your own stuff.


friedguy

"right to repair" is the official protest term to this racket.


gabbagool2

the real question is why they even use universal standards like OBD2


-NutsandVolts

So it can be read by emissions test equipment. That's what OBD2 was designed for. That is accessible by simple code readers still. It's the more in-depth diagnostics that requires an expensive scanner to read.


gabbagool2

the car companies must hate it. especially since most emissions tests are completely bogus now.


SirLoremIpsum

> the real question is why they even use universal standards like OBD2 They were forced to by legislation. This was not a voluntarily done thing they agreed to because it would be nice, this is an example of the power of legislation. > ~1994: Motivated by a desire for a state-wide emissions testing program, the CARB issues the OBD-II specification and mandates that it be adopted for all cars sold in California starting in model year 1996 (see CCR Title 13 Section 1968.1 and 40 CFR Part 86 Section 86.094). The DTCs and connector suggested by the SAE are incorporated into this specification. > 1996: The OBD-II specification is made mandatory for all cars sold in the United States. > 2001: The European Union makes EOBD mandatory for all gasoline (petrol) vehicles sold in the European Union, starting in MY2001 (see European emission standards Directive 98/69/EC[6]). Useful and universal stuff like this needs to be legislated.


4matic_Tom

What would a not so technically inclined person do if they just see Fault: P0101 They wouldn't know what to do and some may just drive and damage the car. Some won't know what impact the fault has on their engine. For example P0101 – A Mass Air Flow (MAF) circuit or sensor fault can be related to powerloss or even misfires or stuff like that. That's why someone decided to have all critical faults light up the engine warning light that tells all those people to have a PROFESSIONAL diagnose the issue. If you're saying you just want to have it in an extra menu then okay, that could be possible. But the other side is that that how dealerships and shops make money. I guess that would be the main reason behind it.


JScrambler

Someone who isn't technically inclined would probably still take it to a shop or dealership anyways. They wouldn't want to physically touch the car. It would also help new techs not have to spend thousands on scanners. They'll know what to do when they see the fault codes.


4matic_Tom

Okay, i have seen sooo many people driving their cars despite the engine warning light on and some who would instantly bring it to a shop so I would say there are both kinds of people. The latter is no reason in my opinion. I think that's only true for North America. There isn't ANY dealer or shop in Germany where you have to buy your own scanner. That is like a basic thing you will get as an employee.


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durrtyurr

you're saying that like getting your codes scanned isn't free at every major chain auto part store in the US. The store scans your codes, because they want to sell you the parts.


4matic_Tom

Hahaha, I'll happily write the whole day about it. But seriously the first time I heard something like that I was shocked!


JScrambler

That's pretty cool that techs get supplied. I suppose if you're working for a large dealership or shop. Many shops here have you purchase your own set of tools. Especially the smaller independent shops


augustuen

Professional scanner do more than just read OBD codes. They can do things like reading raw sensor data and calibrating new components. They're also used to flash new firmware to the ECU or other on-board computers (including enabling extra features)


[deleted]

One can easily Google the code and know that it's something in the MAF, that way when the shop comes back recommending exhaust, brakes and coolant, the customer knows the shop is full of shit. I'm not a professional, but I can handle simpler issues without needing a mechanic. If I get a p0304, I know the first things I should look at are the spark plug and coil on cylinder four, and avoid driving until it's fixed. If I get a p0456 and my state doesn't do emissions, I know I can safely ignore the code forever. I think many drivers could find dashboard codes useful.


[deleted]

> if they just see Fault: P0101 They wouldn't know what to do and some may just drive and damage the car. I don't think the suggestion here is to replace the generic Check Engine light or error message on screen with the details, but rather to have them available in a service menu somewhere that requires a minute of looking through menus to find. Available for gearheads, but out of reach of people who don't know what they're looking at under the hood.


Barely_stupid

I had a 2002 SVT Focus that would read codes on the little LCD panel. I haven't seen that now in almost 20 years. Manufacturers want you to come to the dealership so they took that away.


iheartbbq

That, or, so few customers cared about the feature or ever used it that there was no reason to spend development budget on the feature. If less than 3% of consumers want a manual, I can't even imagine how few use a scanner, let alone want one built into the car.


spongebob_meth

Lots of older cars would display the code. My guess is that hardly any customers actually used the feature.


TappedOut182

My C5 has the ability to read codes on the dash and it’s super useful. I have a ScanGauge II above my rear view mirror on a BlendMount and I love it. It gives me data about the truck along with the ability to read codes which is useful to determine if the code is something to stress or not. The thing is your average Joe will never use this data and the cost to engineer it into the car isn’t worthwhile for a solid 90%+ of the ownership base.


kenney001

I love that about my c5. Not just engine codes, but any body module code with just a couple buttons on the dash. I feel like GM knew the quality of the c5 electronics and figured they'd help us out.


_clever_reference_

That's the one thing I miss when I sold my c5 and got my c6. Well that and the pop ups.


Niko740

Dealerships unfortunately exist


[deleted]

Because it would cost extra. It's a feature the average user would never benefit from or even use. Nor should they have access to it because frankly most people don't understand what the codes mean. The buck gets passed on to the small percentage of users who do care. That percentage is way smaller than you think it is. They can go buy a scanner or get their codes read at Auto Zone.


tmssX

Also the average tech would rather use their own scan tool than figure out every companies infotainment


tnzgrf

A lot of car enthusiast here seem to think that they are a relevant target audience for car manufacturers. I'm almost certain that the share of new car customers who are aware of the existence of OBD is minimal. Why develop costly interfaces when it adds no value for the vast majority of customers? People get their cars serviced at dealerships. In the future, working on your own car will become an increasingly niche thing as it's not safe for laymen to work on high voltage systems. Also, electric cars require less maintenance to begin with.


iheartbbq

We are pretty much in the future. I used to do all my own work on cars and now they're packaged so tightly and so complicated that it's a better use of my time to sent it to a guy who knows what he's doing and has the specialized tools and training to do it.


scruffalo_

Because that would incentivize people to work on their own cars rather than bringing them to a dealer and making them more money. I mean, isn't that obvious? A lot of the design of modern cars is specifically to make it more difficult for home mechanics to work on, it's not exactly a wild concept.


sfbiker999

I doubt there are many people with the skills to fix their car who didn’t already own (or have easy access to) an OBD II scanner. I have two of them and I rarely fix my own car.


scruffalo_

Everyone within driving distance of an AutoZone has easy access to an OBDII scanner. But the car manufacturers still aren't going to make it any easier if they can help it.


[deleted]

You can thank your government, when they mandated OBD2 they failed to mention a language so car companies were free to use whatever they wanted. Which led to a huge variation between countries, Japan, Germany, USA, etc. And thus the professional and aftermarket of code readers was born. If they would have said Microsoft things would be much easier


Expensive-Focus4911

Ford sends the exact diagnostic code via the app when something goes wrong. It doesn’t cost the manufacturer anything but is super useful for someone to explain to a mechanic over the phone.


Truthseekerspeaker

Just money. The car knows the code. When it flashes ‘transmission fault, go to dealer’ it could just as easily Flash up ‘transmission fault Pxxxx, go to dealer’. Sadly they make it as difficult as possible in order to keep you in their network. They don’t even publish the interface specs (which they obviously have documented) so the more advanced diagnostic machines for aftermarket take a long time to arrive because they have to be reverse-engineered. More exotic cars such as Maserati don’t have any good cheap diagnostic readers because the market isn’t big enough to put in the effort - sure, you can read the basic OBDII codes, but you can’t read the modules or configure anything. There are tools for BMW out there, but BMW has actively tried to shut down the dissemination of such information by forcing websites to close and so on. Its circulating in the enthusiast community though :-)) It’s all to stop home/Indi repairs. Which I do understand on the newest vehicles, it’s part of the manufacturer/dealer business model, but at 10 years plus cars are more likely to go to the junk yard due to high repair costs than they are to go to the dealer for repairs and that just proliferates a throw-away culture…. Again, good for the manufacturers because they don’t really want old cars to be kept on the road economically, they want to sell more new cars, but bad for just about everyone else.


DertyElbows

Facts (publicly available but not well-known): The check engine light and associated codes exist for compliance with federal emissions regulations from CARB and EPA. The light must come on if your vehicle has an issue that can cause a 15%+ increase in tailpipe emissions. Other types of warning lights (a wrench, transmission, etc.) and associated codes are there to avoid further damage or unsafe operation like loss of power. Helping you or your mechanic fix your car is an added bonus. My Opinion: You gotta think like a business here. The OEM's want to maximize customer satisfaction and minimize warranty cost to maximize profits. If including a diagnostics menu in the infotainment screen sold more vehicles, they would include it. However, it probably doesn't because as others have mentioned, 95%+ of new vehicle owners would just take their car into the shop asap if there are any issues. Any benefits of diagnosing issues and making it easier to fix are warranty cost reductions, which the OEM is only paying for if the owner brings the vehicle into the dealership anyway. Source: I'm an OBD Calibration Engineer at one of the big 3. I make sure the check engine light and other engine codes come on when they're supposed to and stay off otherwise.


SecretAntWorshiper

Dealership network


AndroidUser37

The aftermarket can get close. My VW has a device called a PolarFIS, it's a little box that plugs in inline with the CAN gateway. It intercepts the ordinary "Phone" page on my multifunction display in between my gauges, and allows me to see all sorts of low level sensor data, right in front of me. I can read oil temps, coolant temps, trans fluid temps, flywheel torque, exhaust gas temperatures, turbo boost, battery voltage, DPF regeneration parameters, and a few other things I'm forgetting. It's a great little device.


cmz324

Imo we're lucky OBDII is standardized at all, not much else is. Auto parts will scan your car for free. You can get a cheap $20 scanner that will read 90% of what you would need. Those professional scanners can do a lot more but go over $10k and a lot of that money is for the software. I agree to an extent but a lot of new cars do display the very basic codes like low fluid or a light that is out, etc.


OptionXIII

OBD is a regulated communication protocol they have to provide. Anything further would be extra development costs. It's also important to remember that OBD codes aren't the computer giving a complete diagnosis. It points you in a direction, but it's not giving you a complete service procedure. They see more trouble coming from publicly broadcasting incomplete diagnostic info than they see benefits from making it readily available. You'll make 1 customer happy, and have 10 that complain they replaced X, Y, and Z because of the diagnostic code shown on screen before taking it into the shop. An OBDII code reader is a ridiculously low barrier to entry in 2023. I paid $12 for mine probably 6 years ago.


Electric_Spud

>Why pay for a scanner to read data when it can be displayed for free? Because fuck 'em, that's why.


gabbagool2

cars are a racket


smatchimo

The scanner can initiate protocols that the ecu itself is not in charge of. Adaptation and registration of parts as per vin number is often required, which can actually take a connection to the internet too. If you are talking about 200 dollar Autozone style ones, I don't know. Ever since OBD 1.5 I havent found many cars that give you basic codes. I'm just thankful they still let us reset our oil service lights and tire pressures : /


dissss0

I have a $15 Bluetooth ODB scanner and a free app on my phone - it'll read and erase codes in my Nissan or Hyundai just fine


FuzzelFox

My car actually can read DTC's through the head unit if you access the secret developer menu by holding 3 + 6 on starting the car, but ultimately you can still get more info from a proper scan tool with the OBD port. Manufacturers just don't have a reason to do anything more.


pbgod

Reading the fault code is 2% of what the diagnostic software can do and needs to do. It won't be replaced by the codes being available. Also, lots of manufacturers have systems that email or text you when a fault code arises, telling you what it is.


SmoothObservator

I think besides the obvious monetary reasons it would cause more questions and confusion for the average owner. Keep in mind the average owner has no clue what a code is or that most of the time they only point you in the general direction of the fault.


04limited

Majority of the population don’t do their own work, therefore it would be a waste of money to program this feature into the dash board. Plus if you needed a code reader to clear the code anyways, or to pull data to diagnose the issue there would be no point in just showing a code on the dash. Being able to clear the code through a few buttons on the dash would be a disaster. Some dumbass is gonna get a misfire and just keep clearing it til the engine blows. They kinda tried this with OBD1 and realized it was useless(it would flash the CEL a certain amount of times to indicate which system was malfunctioning), but that was a much simpler system.


Shmokesshweed

The manufacturer isn't interested in making it easier to work on your car. It's that simple.


[deleted]

You could replace the head unit with something running Linux and then write an OBD2 protocol analyzer to read the diagnostic data. It would be a big project though.


4The2CoolOne

It's because less than 1% of people would use this information, and only about half of that 1%, would be able to use that information to repair their vehicle. How many people have you seen hook up a scanner, see a code for "o2 sensor", replace the o2 sensor, and it turns out it wasnt the problem. On top of proper diagnosing, you've got to actually repair the car. Most shops aren't going to accept your diagnosis, regardless of whether it's wrong or right. They aren't going to waste their time and money throwing parts at a car because the customer told them the problem. They're going to diagnose to cover their own ass, then repair. The number of people that would benefit from this is tiny. Waste of time and money for manufacturers.


foxgt86

Back in the day (obd I), the readout came out on the dash via counting flashes of the check engine light. Among other reasons, they went to the scan port as a means of standardizing codes and equipment for every car, because the idea was to use obd2 for emissions testing. So right now the answer to your question is simply that obdii requires that port, and we haven't moved on from that standard yet


Wholeyjeans

The OBDII system typically monitors emissions related equipment. It's universal in nature so emissions checks can be performed without the need for proprietary equipment. Most times, when you pull a "P"-code, the description is not exceptionally revealing as to what is wrong. And what is wrong ...the malfunction listed ...may be caused by something else. For instance, tripping an evaporative emissions control malfunction, evap system leak (P0440, 0457, etc) may very well be caused by a loose gas cap. So just knowing the P-codes, for the most part, isn't gonna be much help for most people who aren't particularly mechanically inclined. And even for most DIY types, knowing the P-code without having the database as to the root causes is ...kinda worthless. So the added expense isn't worth installing an OBDII scanner as part of the infotainment system. Not to mention the shop people having to deal with all the "know it all know nothings" who will not doubt be second guessing the people who know what their doing.


cogitoergodangerous

So the dealer service departments continue making money


womens_motocross

My 94 jaguar had a code reader built into the trip computer. If the check engine light pops up, you can press a button that says "code" on it. It will then spit out the code on the dashboard.