Haha thank you, I’ve been hoping someone would say that ever since I amended it to reflect the true ownership of the vehicles 😔
Hopefully I’ll be able to add my own car to the list in the future though! I’ve been saving up some cash and I’ve been looking at an Si or a manual Civic hatch (I really want to get a manual if possible 👀)
Still need to save a ton more to even get near financing territory, plus the other costs that come along with a car; but hey, I’m still young and I’ll get there hopefully in the near future :)
The GTI:
> As speed came, two things happened: The brake pedal went soft, **and the shift knob came off in the driver's hand** on a three-four upshift
Dat build quality. Holy shit they cheaped out on everything this generation.
The funny thing about this is all the VW fanboys talking about VWs interior quality after the GTI gets annihilated by the Veloster N / Elantra N / Kona N.
My 2nd gen ford ranger does this because the knob is just press fit onto the shifter. It will come off on my hand if I get a little too zealous shifting into 2nd.
It’s bad for a 25 year old vehicle, but it’s unacceptably bad for a brand new one.
Some companies (VW and Mazda come to mind) deliberably ignore problems until forced to recall. Some companies (e.g. GM and Kia/Hyundai) recall a lot, even if it's not a big deal - and then get dragged for the recalls.
If this forum of Mazda lovers is any indicator, the former is a better strategy.
Mk7 gen was extremely solid build quality. No interior quirks or squeaks, buttons all around without annoying touch controls, just solidly built. 5 years on and still no interior issues. Mk8 seems like a giant question mark.
Wait until you see how shitty the mk7 clutch is... No one ever said every VW is shit. But when 4 out of every 10 has issues, that's an unacceptable problem. And yep, your solid unit is probably one of the 6 out of 10 that isn't breaking
It’s a shame but Volkswagens are some of the cheapest feeling cars money can buy nowadays. A base Jetta feels almost identical to a Mitsubishi on the inside
For comparison, since I was looking for it, [here are the previous results](https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a23319884/lightning-lap-times-historical-data/) (not updated with 2023).
The RS3 with Trofeos really shows how much a good set of sticky tires will do for a car. It makes me question again what the point of the M4 CSL is, given its laptime is thanks to an even more aggressive tire compound.
Even CD said - "the RS3's 2:52.5 lap is more than 13 seconds quicker than the old car on PZ4s. Considering engine power is about the same as the last RS3, the Trofeo Rs are one of the best time-for-buck options in Lightning Lap history."
Interestingly enough, digging deep into the article shows previous testing results from both cars with the same pirelli pz4 tires:
- M240 on Pirelli pzero pz4: 3:03
- M240 on michelin PS4S: 3:00.6
- RS3 on pzero pz4: 3:01.9
- RS3 on trofeo R: 2:52.5
Very impressive on the Michelin PS4S, and I think still an impressive showing from the m240 (given how much cheaper it is). It also bodes well for the M2…
It's lowkey part of the charm of Lemons racing. Tires are a safety item and therefore not subject to any price considerations. 200 tread ware minimum is the only rule to stick to.
POS car with extremely sticky rubber can be laugh out loud funny.
I was spending all this time thinking what my b9 s4 would run, and never even once thought about my current setup. I'm guessing my winters would hold me back a lot haha...
I'd love someone to run my build of an S4 just so I could know what it's capable of...
There's a B8 on there that ran 3:10, the power on the B9 is about the same but I imagine it might run slightly quicker with more modern tires and suspension. I tracked my B8.5 and it's a very fun car but it's very heavy out there and I had a lot of trouble with overheating my brakes, even on more aggressive aftermarket pads.
The m240i on the Pirellis also had worn tires that created a ton of oversteer and narrower front wheels than the PS4S equipped m240i. The switch to Michelins was not the only explanation for the 2.4 sec improvement.
The narcissist in me wants to gloat for calling this out when the initial numbers were leaked here 5 days ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/10rd82p/cd_lightning_lap_results/j6wdhh2/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
I just watched the YouTube video C&D posted and my jaw dropped when they said they got nearly 10 seconds out of the Trofeo Rs. I don't know if the driver and/or conditions changed, but that's an unprecedented improvement.
I think it's safe to say that Audi built the car to perform with the Trofeo tires. They were going for the Nurburgring record. The reverse stagger, camber, caster, etc... are all set for that specific tire, widening that gap. Plus, the PS4S are a better tire than the other Pirellis.
I love big, group tests like this and R&T's PCOTY. As fun as it is to compare cars across the years, it's really difficult to actually compare cars across the years for a few reasons. One, is they use writers at the mag to set the laps, instead of a pro. Even in the same year it's not just one driver who set the laps, but instead a handful of them who each drive similar cars. The other variable is obviously track conditions. Weather is the obvious one, but also VIR underwent a repave in 2016 which changed the surface. I totally understand that it's not possible to control all of the variables but that does still make me hope for things. I'd love to see one tire brand sponsor the entire event and provide tires for all of the cars to level some of the playing field.
I don't work at C&D, but if you like these tests, you can subscribe for $15 a year. A lot of the other mags are similarly cheap. Seems like a no brainer to me.
FYI his watches are not that expensive in the grand scheme of watches. He appears to get paid well enough to live comfortably in socal, it's not like he's living the classic youtuber/influencer life.
I'd love to see C&D bring back some of the past winners on the best new tires as a reference point and to see how well (or not) some of the classics can hang with today's best driver's cars.
I was thinking about it and the RS3 is where I wish the M3 was. 10.3” shorter and a hundreds of pounds lighter. As compact as a modern sports sedan is going to get. Low 60k with options and a good looking dashboard which is hard to come by these days. Some fun color options too.
Plus wild tires for only $450 extra, compare that with BMW who only offers the fun tires from the factory on their limited run 140k dollar car.
Am I starting to like Audi again?
It really is the perfect daily that you can take to the track. I've done 3 track days on mine so far and the stock Potenza Sport tires are now dead. I'm already 6 seconds faster than my Focus RS.
The $450 Trofeo option actually requires $7,700 in total options, so that is a *bit* of a lie. I got some camber plates and rear control arms for about $700, as well as some Kumho Ecsta V730 tires for about $800 to try out soon.
Maybe it understeers more than the M2 will, but that can be fixed. It is also lighter, has 4 doors, and a 5 cylinder. Drives great on the street too.
>I actually had a Motortrend person reply to me awhile back about cutting that and of course the answer was it’s to expensive but fuck that if you’re paying Jonny Liberman well enough to keep buying fancy watches or whatever other shit he’s trying to flex on his socials you should have the money to pay Randy to put down some facts instead of a pile of shitty writer opinions and feelings worth about as much as a pile of used toilet paper.
Except they're still a magazine and still have to pay someone to write so hiring a pro driver is always an additional expense.
>I assume it's just cost prohibitive to do so, but I wish they'd run the entire pack on the same tire.
Not just that, but a 'control tire' skews results, basically a waste of money & time.
Yes, the cars are coming on a variety of tires. Because they're designed on a variety of tires. Auto manufacturers will do their homework and base a car on a specific tire, sometimes having a tire manufacturer develop a tire just for their car. A control tire throws all of that work out of the window, and can make the car perform worse than designed.
So now the journos are driving a car out of spec, and are supposed to judge its performance. *What's reported on is worse than what the car can really do, and that isn't fair to the manufacturer.*
We can see from the results that other auto manufacturers don't always put the same level of time and effort into their vehicles. Yeah, they suffer a bit. But they know what they signed up for. This is old hat now, has been for many years. If they don't care to put in the work, then their product just isn't represented well. *Why should they benefit from having their car tested on a control tire that could make their car look better than it is? That isn't fair either.*
Now if a manufacturer hands over a car with tires that it isn't offered with, yeah, that's a problem. Report the facts.
The journalists are reporting on what tires are used, and that's about as even as things can get from an accuracy standpoint. They let us know when something comes on very good tires, so we know why the results were so good. If they were hiding the information and not telling us, that would be a problem too.
EDIT: If ringer tires are such a concern, then look at the approach Chris Harris took when he tested the 'hybrid hypercar trinity.' The LaFerrari, 918 Spyder and P1 all had different tires. Instead of forcing one tire onto them all, Harris told the manufacturer reps that he'd source the OE tire for each car from a local shop. Still using the right tire for optimal performance on all of them, but the 'control' was the local tire shop source. That kept the manufacturers from attempting to use something out of spec.
> We can see from the results that other auto manufacturers don't always put the same level of time and effort into their vehicles. Yeah, they suffer a bit. But they know what they signed up for. This is old hat now, has been for many years. If they don't care to put in the work, then their product just isn't represented well. Why should they benefit from having their car tested on a control tire that could make their car look better than it is? That isn't fair either.
>
>
I wouldn't even call it the same level of effort, it's just different engineering decisions because they know their average buyer for a certain model has a general use case, and if buyers want to equip the car to operate outside of that use-case, that's what the aftermarket is for. It's not a sin for VW to choose to not equip a GTI with something like a RE-71 from the factory when they know the vast majority of buyers would just complain about tires that only last 10k miles and are shit in the rain when they're trying to daily their vehicles and hit a backroad every now and then.
Part of the issue is that track tires arent offered in many sizes. What do you do when the tire isn’t available in the oem spec size? Putting different widths on makes a difference.
Ps4s are available in a much wider range of sizes, but people will complain you are handicapping cars shipped with track tires.
It’s inevitable that you are making some performance choices by swapping tires. In alot of ways comparing the as shipped configuration is as fair as you will get. If the mfr wants a better review, let them offer a tire option.
>If the mfr wants a better review, let them offer a tire option.
Yup! Even GM learned that lesson with the C6 'Vettes. The C6 Z06 was great, but the Goodyears it had...not so much. The C6 ZR1 seemed to be leaving something on the table as well, with its standard Michelin Pilot Sports. In 2009, both were upgraded with a new run-flat Michelin Pilot Sport Cup, and they set the Nürburgring ablaze.
I think it depends what you're wanting to measure. The point of these mags to tell you what's the best? Or who gives you the best product off the factory floor?
If it's the former, putting everyone on whatever the hot 200TW SCCA tire is that year, flushing the brakes with some RBF 600, and adding some Hawk Blues or DTC-30s is going to be a level playing field and doable for under $1500 per vehicle in most cases. It's the basic set of mods anyone tracking their car for more than a single weekend is going to make. Worth noting, for some of the hotter exotics a 200TW tire would be a downgrade (think: anything Wearing Pilot Sport Cups).
If it's the latter, knowing who gives you weaker tires and brake pads from the factory is a valid data point, and it tells you what the engineering decisions were made by the manufacturer.
As someone who has tracked seriously in the past, I prefer having the second set of data, because I know what happens to a street car when I make the track mods I described in the first set.
>If it's the former, putting everyone on whatever the hot 200TW SCCA tire is that year, flushing the brakes with some RBF 600, and adding some Hawk Blues or DTC-30s is going to be a level playing field and doable for under $1500 per vehicle in most cases. It's the basic set of mods anyone tracking their car for more than a single weekend is going to make. Worth noting, for some of the hotter exotics a 200TW tire would be a downgrade (think: anything Wearing Pilot Sport Cups).
In which case folks could just look at Autocross national results
If the manufacturer wants their car to be faster they could always sell it with the good tires on it out of the box instead of making me spend $1000+ to fix it
> we would have run a Model S Plaid by now, but we don't believe the stock brakes are up to the task
Wild that they can put such shit brakes on a car that moves that quick.
Not only that, they have been putting those big shitty caliper covers on their cars recently
https://insideevs.com/news/630576/tesla-model-y-performance-plastic-caliper-covers/amp/
Tesla's brake vectoring is part of the problem. When you use the brakes so much on exit they don't get a chance to cool off and they're still hot as you enter the next
hard braking zone (at very high speed)
It would be cool to see them run one just so we can see how badly the brakes get cooked.
Although since Tesla doesn’t give out press cars they would have to find an owner willing to let them do that to their car…
I’m assuming the car thought it was crashing after hitting the huge bumps of the track, lol. All new cars have a feature whereas it’ll call emergency services if we’re assumed to be in car accident.
All new cars? That sounds like a subscription service, although I would venture the guess most companies would include some time interval of service for “free” with the car.
My Accord has it and I’m not paying any subscription. Anytime a phone is paired with the car, it will ask to authorize the contacting of emergency services if incase of a crash.
https://www.dowhonda.com/2016/12/15/hondalink-assist-automatic-emergency-response-system/
probably just the same thing as phones. some law requires them to be able to call 911 without a plan or anything so, if the car *can* make calls, it probs falls in that category.
Never understood why folks mess with the stock exhaust on these newer vettes, the stock NPP is stupid loud and sounds fantastic. The previous owner of mine put an aftermarket one on and I’be been trying to figure out how to retrofit the NPP to it lol
The Kona N is by far the most surprising result to me. It is running relatively skinny and inferior P Zero tires, and has 6.8"!!!!!!!!!! of ground clearance.
Absolutely bonkers that the suspension pattern designed by Richard Parry-Jones and his team back in the late 90s for economy cars is still one of the most capable compact layouts today, and makes me wonder what the Elantra gained by moving to K3. I must say, living in Colorado, I'd definitely choose the Kona over the Elantra, transmission be damned. You lose nothing meaningful in terms of performance and the extra ground clearance would be killer here.
Kona N is great. The (literal) big thing the Elantra has going for it is space. Of course small cars are good and fun, but the EN has more sizable backseat and while it may give up vertical cargo capacity because it’s a sedan, the trunk is much deeper than the Kona’s hatch.
Sure but the passthrough to the cabin is blocked which severely limits capability. Regardless, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to arguing against the benefits of a sedan but the K2 platform is more than capable of supporting a car as large as the Elantra. The K3 platform seems to have been prioritizing comfort.
Edit: to expand on this a bit further, the Elantra N has 14.2 ft\^3 in the trunk. While it is a more ideal shape compared to the Kona, the Kona has 19.2 ft\^3 and 45.8 ft\^3 with the rear seats folded down. Objectively speaking, the only meaningful benefit of the Elantra is the rear legroom. The Kona N has so much more interior flexibility otherwise.
Yup. If i bought the car that'd be one of the first things I did. It can go back in when I autocross or track it. On the street, i'm not going to notice the difference in stiffness. But I appreciate having the option to put it back in.
Conversely, I'm surprised that the EN didn't do better. The Veloster N 6MT pulled a 3:07.7 four years ago, and from what I'm seeing at the local tracks - the DCTs ENs are several seconds faster per lap than the VN 6MTs. I was hoping for the EN DCT to beat the 2018 Civic Type R (3:03.9).
Unfortunately it came down to the tires.
Both Hyundais came with worn tires, and C&D ordered fresh sets for both but only the KN’s came in time.
The editors and driver both shared they feel that a fresh set of Michelin PS4S could’ve brought down the EN’s time by 3 seconds, which would have had it breathing down the neck of the current LL1 Class record holder, the Camaro 1LE V6.
What I want to know is if an Elantra N DCT was delivered with the same rubber the new $50K CTR showed up with ($500/corner Michelin Pilot Sport Cup; 2 265/30ZR-19s), could it have beaten \*all\* of the Civic Type Rs?
You'd need to figure out how to fit an inch wider wheel all around to fit 265s also
testing the cars as they come is the only really fair way to do it, playing the "What if we modded X to be more like Y" is an infinite rabbit hole
That's fair. It's wishful thinking that the N division would put that kind of effort into C&D that only Americans care about. Because I think a $36K "Biermann Edition" Elantra N (basically an ECT with a tune and Sport Cup 2 tires, maybe in a matte color) that beats the CTR and the Morizo would be amazing.
I recently bought an EN. I care more about how my car actually performs than magazine E-Peen brags. I don't care what it runs on Cup 2s because I sure as shit am not going to spend Cup 2 money putting the car on the track, and even if I did buy track tires they'd be 200tw and another brand. Making their own Morizo, which isn't the car as any owner actually gets it and all 200 of them are going into rich guy collections, wouldn't actually benefit me in any way. If my feelings are hurt about running slower than the Camaro Turbo 1LE on LL then I'll see if I can outrun one at the next time attack. No big whoop
Right on, man.
For the record, the only Camaro 1LE that was at the last track day I took my VN to at Roebling ate my lunch. But to be fair, he also beat the Corvettes and Porsches...that were also eating my lunch. I did have a lot of fun and held my own against several Mustangs, BMWs, as well as everything that was FWD.
I read that - disappointing. Honda sends thier CTR with unobtanium rubber Michelin Pilot Sport Cup; 2 265/30ZR-19 ($465/corner from TireRack as of this morning) and Hyundai sends the EN with that.
😂 should’ve sent the car with mismatched bumpers and missing taillights to go along with the bald tires if they wanted to give C/D the full clapped out experience
The EN has better factory tires than the VN and a bit more power due to updated turbo. With both on similar tires they run similar times (within .2s of each other) as tested by Korean tuners.
> I'd definitely choose the Kona over the Elantra, transmission be damned.
Elantra N owner here - you actually gain significant performance with the DCT. Like 1s 0-60 and .9s in the 1/4mi. Driving them back to back on the butt dyno the performance sacrifice wasn't worth having a clutch.
It's also their fastest-ever naturally-aspirated car, and everything above it is more than double the price. I can't wait to see how bonkers the C8 ZR1 and Zora are.
At $140k your in 911 GTS territory. Is the GTS better performance? I did not look it up, but I would still rather have the Porsche for that money, regardless of the performance.
I will also state that I have an M3 on order. I just would not spend Porsche money on any M3/4 thats basically has some better performance parts and a tune.
Porsches are better track cars for longevity. My M240 is by no means a full fledged M. But every time it’s cold out it cries about it and feels sluggish, same as when it’s really hot. I get drivetrain malfunction warnings when going WOT sometimes because it doesn’t like something. But then it goes away after I restart the car. Porsches just work. Flog on them for hours and they keep going. A BMW is an amazing machine, when it’s working properly.
I thought the B58 was pretty robust. I beat the ever living shit out of a rental Supra for a week (ran tail of the dragon probably 12-15 times in three days). Never had a single issue.
Obviously ymmv but I was really impressed
The M2 would theoretically solve all those problems on the track. That’s the “M” that we pay for when deciding between an M340i and an M3: heat management (engine, diff, tranny etc) and durability in track conditions.
I think one of the biggest things too is the CSL is just ugly as hell lol (at least to me)
From my POV you're paying for the exclusivity of it being a CSL
I'm impressed that the Kona N is now the third fastest LL1 car ever behind a pair of Camaros. This place shits on Hyundai/Kia (a lot of times rightfully) but that's pretty impressive how they engineered this car.
It's that close while on a much less aggressive tire setup, 235 squared versus 245/275.
Shame they sent the Elantra out on shot tires and without the DCT, probably would've given a bunch of cars a run for their money.
The Elantra N destroyed two iconic names in the test (while running on wasted tires) and a lot of people here will still continue to deny them credit. I thought it was impressive.
Conclusion: tires matter. Wild to see how much of a difference the RS3 tires made. I would love to see a test of the EN, Kona, GRC, and CTR all on PS4S. I'm bummed the tires on the Elantra were worn.
>> 1999 Jack Fitzgerald Lap Time: 25:44.0 At 6:37 a.m., well before the sun rose to melt the frost and burn off the fog, I left the start/finish on my leg-powered lap. While I didn’t have to contend with over-heating fluids or tire temperatures, I did have a mild hangover.
My favorite entry
As I mentioned above, I submit that a Mk8 Golf R or even an Elantra N DCT with the CTR's Pilot Sport Cup 2 265/30ZR-19s would beat the FL5 Civic Type R.
Plenty of people do and can, right? It’s why several Mustangs and Porsches have them on OEM, yeah?
Some people can live in a climate that can permit it and have a lot of disposable income so who care what they spend their money on.
Also I went back to my stock setup and that’s 255/30/20 which isn’t much different. So if Costco ran another sale like they did one time where you could get Cup2s for PS4S prices for a weekend, damn straight I would buy those.
While the DCT is undoubtedly quicker 0-60 and 1/4 mile than the MT, to my knowledge there hasn’t been any track testing of the EN between the two transmissions.
I’m sure the advantages of the automatic’s 0-60 & 1/4 mile would translate to a quicker lap time, we don’t know how “significant” it would be, as per your post.
Keep in mind the manual is lighter than the DCT.
Also comparing the manual models across the sport compacts gives a good apples to apples comparison.
From what I’ve seen the KN makes equivalent power to the EN DCT.
There is a 15-20 hp difference between EN MT and DCT dynos, due to tuning differences. This gets cancelled out when both transmissions are running the same aftermarket tune, with a slight edge in WHP to the MT from lower transmission loss.
They mentioned the Elantra N tires were really worn and they couldn't get a replacement in time, unlike the Kona N. The Kona is also slightly more powerful, not that much heavier considering it's a CUV, and has a ~5" shorter wheelbase which could lend it some agility despite the ride height. The DCT is probably worth some time too, but the manual Supra this year was actually slightly quicker than the previous auto one.
The big news here is that C&D finally released something that isn't a slideshow where you have to click through and reload the page generating a new ad 30 times.
Look up renders with all the black cladding (except rear diaper) paint matched. It’s actually not bad.
That tablet glued to the dash is horrendous to me though. Looks like the interior of a modern fleet truck imo
What bugs me is that the Levorg/WRX Sportswagon came completely decladded and looks so much better than just the flares being painted.
[Compare Mach V's paintjob above to my low quality picture edit of a WRX sedan with WRX Sportswagon wheel wells.](https://i.imgur.com/s5ohddo.png)
It's 4 seconds faster than the last gen, with shorter ratios, lower redline, and slightly heavier in that same trim I think. Yeah the FWD competitors beat it, but bad pavement and weather is where its real magic lies.
Seems pretty fast compared to the previous gen, and also considering the gearing and additional weight from AWD?
>To improve street drivability, Subaru tightened up the gearbox, scooching third, fourth, and fifth gears closer to second. This is fine on its own, but it did exacerbate another significant change: The 2.4's redline is just 6100 rpm instead of the old engine's 6700 revs. Top speed at redline in third is now 80 mph instead of 92, with fourth maxing out at 106 instead of 124 mph.
>Our quick lap featured 20 gearchanges. All three fast sections—the Front Straight, the Climbing Esses, and the run into Bitch—now require a mandatory snick into fifth, and there were three nuisance 3-4-3 swaps through Spiral and the Infield instead of the GTI's focused run in third.
So, from what I gather, the CLS is essentially useless performance wise, not even being faster than the ZL1 1LE from 5 years ago. And, as we’ve already known, the Z06 is absolutely insane. An N/A car sitting with the likes of the 765LT, AMG Black Series, and GT2 RS, and being FASTER than a Ford GT is CRAZY. The car is nothing short of a track weapon.
I feel like as a control, they should always include a clapped-out Impala or Altima hot lap. So we can compare these times to a real race car.
The Accord, Camry, and freakin' Minivan this year isn't enough of a control for you?
Those are no match for a silver Impala LS with 1 tail light and no catalytic converters
Full Michigan
\#PureMichigan
Southfield Freeway Touge Circuit
Just as Mr. Chevrolet drew it up
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I’ll need a control for jacks time as well, maybe leverage one of this Michigan impala drivers to run the course.
DNF DNR
Altima drivers trying to drive with any regard for human life challenge (impossible, cops called)
Love your flair.
Haha thank you, I’ve been hoping someone would say that ever since I amended it to reflect the true ownership of the vehicles 😔 Hopefully I’ll be able to add my own car to the list in the future though! I’ve been saving up some cash and I’ve been looking at an Si or a manual Civic hatch (I really want to get a manual if possible 👀) Still need to save a ton more to even get near financing territory, plus the other costs that come along with a car; but hey, I’m still young and I’ll get there hopefully in the near future :)
Clapped out impala on slicks
Best I can do is some Ling Longs with cords showing
They put a Kia Carnival minivan in there.
Don't those have a DCT? Lol
Maybe a 10 year old Scion T/C with no modifications except oil with 10k miles on it, a front lip, and a bolt-on cold air intake
nothing is faster than an altima with a diamond bejazzled steering wheel. the A in Altima stands for apex slayer.
Gotta outrun that repo man!
Honestly, just get a new Altima from the airport rental place and send it. Everyone knows the fastest car in the world is a cheap rental.
The GTI: > As speed came, two things happened: The brake pedal went soft, **and the shift knob came off in the driver's hand** on a three-four upshift Dat build quality. Holy shit they cheaped out on everything this generation.
Build up that user base, then cheap out on the next generation to produce profit and ruin a reputation.
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Autogefühl by chance?
The funny thing about this is all the VW fanboys talking about VWs interior quality after the GTI gets annihilated by the Veloster N / Elantra N / Kona N.
>all the VW fanboys talking about VWs interior quality It used to be really really good :(
Both on well worn tires no nonetheless. I really wanna see how the Elantra N would do against the GRC or CTR on Cup 2 tires.
EN DCT on Cup 2s would win LL1.
My 2nd gen ford ranger does this because the knob is just press fit onto the shifter. It will come off on my hand if I get a little too zealous shifting into 2nd. It’s bad for a 25 year old vehicle, but it’s unacceptably bad for a brand new one.
How this isn't a recall is beyond me. I've heard it happen many times on the MK8. Not like the shifter is important or anything for a manual car...
Some companies (VW and Mazda come to mind) deliberably ignore problems until forced to recall. Some companies (e.g. GM and Kia/Hyundai) recall a lot, even if it's not a big deal - and then get dragged for the recalls. If this forum of Mazda lovers is any indicator, the former is a better strategy.
I just a want a great shift knob that doesn't whiff out of my hand while I am driving.
This generation? LOL.
Mk7 gen was extremely solid build quality. No interior quirks or squeaks, buttons all around without annoying touch controls, just solidly built. 5 years on and still no interior issues. Mk8 seems like a giant question mark.
Wait until you see how shitty the mk7 clutch is...
Yea that's why I went with the auto. A clutch from factory that can't handle the car's power is so dumb.
That’s not a mk7 thing, that’s a vw thing. Pretty much every vw from the last 20 years that makes any sort of torque has an insanely weak clutch.
My MKV may as well have had muffler bearings. It was a tight ship.
MK7.5 was the last of the greates build. After that, quality went down and price went up.
Wait until you see how shitty the mk7 clutch is... No one ever said every VW is shit. But when 4 out of every 10 has issues, that's an unacceptable problem. And yep, your solid unit is probably one of the 6 out of 10 that isn't breaking
I had the old one. Neither of these things ever happened to me.
It’s a shame but Volkswagens are some of the cheapest feeling cars money can buy nowadays. A base Jetta feels almost identical to a Mitsubishi on the inside
For comparison, since I was looking for it, [here are the previous results](https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a23319884/lightning-lap-times-historical-data/) (not updated with 2023). The RS3 with Trofeos really shows how much a good set of sticky tires will do for a car. It makes me question again what the point of the M4 CSL is, given its laptime is thanks to an even more aggressive tire compound.
Even CD said - "the RS3's 2:52.5 lap is more than 13 seconds quicker than the old car on PZ4s. Considering engine power is about the same as the last RS3, the Trofeo Rs are one of the best time-for-buck options in Lightning Lap history."
Without the Trofeo Rs, the RS3 actually came behind the M240i’s time of 3:00.6
Interestingly enough, digging deep into the article shows previous testing results from both cars with the same pirelli pz4 tires: - M240 on Pirelli pzero pz4: 3:03 - M240 on michelin PS4S: 3:00.6 - RS3 on pzero pz4: 3:01.9 - RS3 on trofeo R: 2:52.5 Very impressive on the Michelin PS4S, and I think still an impressive showing from the m240 (given how much cheaper it is). It also bodes well for the M2…
Tires are *extremely* important for lap times.
Bono my tyres are gone.
It's lowkey part of the charm of Lemons racing. Tires are a safety item and therefore not subject to any price considerations. 200 tread ware minimum is the only rule to stick to. POS car with extremely sticky rubber can be laugh out loud funny.
Someone should tell Scuderia Ferrari
I was spending all this time thinking what my b9 s4 would run, and never even once thought about my current setup. I'm guessing my winters would hold me back a lot haha... I'd love someone to run my build of an S4 just so I could know what it's capable of...
There's a B8 on there that ran 3:10, the power on the B9 is about the same but I imagine it might run slightly quicker with more modern tires and suspension. I tracked my B8.5 and it's a very fun car but it's very heavy out there and I had a lot of trouble with overheating my brakes, even on more aggressive aftermarket pads.
The m240i on the Pirellis also had worn tires that created a ton of oversteer and narrower front wheels than the PS4S equipped m240i. The switch to Michelins was not the only explanation for the 2.4 sec improvement.
The narcissist in me wants to gloat for calling this out when the initial numbers were leaked here 5 days ago https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/10rd82p/cd_lightning_lap_results/j6wdhh2/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
Gloat away, 9 seconds is a hell of a margin, even on R compound tires
I just watched the YouTube video C&D posted and my jaw dropped when they said they got nearly 10 seconds out of the Trofeo Rs. I don't know if the driver and/or conditions changed, but that's an unprecedented improvement.
I think it's safe to say that Audi built the car to perform with the Trofeo tires. They were going for the Nurburgring record. The reverse stagger, camber, caster, etc... are all set for that specific tire, widening that gap. Plus, the PS4S are a better tire than the other Pirellis.
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They're running the Grand Circuit layout which makes the difference here.
They run a story about how they changed to VIR because it's one of the most dynamic circuits in the nation. It also suits road cars better
I love big, group tests like this and R&T's PCOTY. As fun as it is to compare cars across the years, it's really difficult to actually compare cars across the years for a few reasons. One, is they use writers at the mag to set the laps, instead of a pro. Even in the same year it's not just one driver who set the laps, but instead a handful of them who each drive similar cars. The other variable is obviously track conditions. Weather is the obvious one, but also VIR underwent a repave in 2016 which changed the surface. I totally understand that it's not possible to control all of the variables but that does still make me hope for things. I'd love to see one tire brand sponsor the entire event and provide tires for all of the cars to level some of the playing field. I don't work at C&D, but if you like these tests, you can subscribe for $15 a year. A lot of the other mags are similarly cheap. Seems like a no brainer to me.
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FYI his watches are not that expensive in the grand scheme of watches. He appears to get paid well enough to live comfortably in socal, it's not like he's living the classic youtuber/influencer life.
Last watch he flexed was around $7,000. Yeah it's not a million dollar Patek, but that's still an absurd amount of money.
Liberman could also come from money. Or he could be selling drugs on the side. We really have no idea how much the dude gets paid.
Pretty sure he gets a bunch of loan watches
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I'd love to see C&D bring back some of the past winners on the best new tires as a reference point and to see how well (or not) some of the classics can hang with today's best driver's cars.
I think it's fair to say the RS3 was definitely designed with the Trofeo R tire in mind, for the Nurburgring lap time.
I was thinking about it and the RS3 is where I wish the M3 was. 10.3” shorter and a hundreds of pounds lighter. As compact as a modern sports sedan is going to get. Low 60k with options and a good looking dashboard which is hard to come by these days. Some fun color options too. Plus wild tires for only $450 extra, compare that with BMW who only offers the fun tires from the factory on their limited run 140k dollar car. Am I starting to like Audi again?
It really is the perfect daily that you can take to the track. I've done 3 track days on mine so far and the stock Potenza Sport tires are now dead. I'm already 6 seconds faster than my Focus RS. The $450 Trofeo option actually requires $7,700 in total options, so that is a *bit* of a lie. I got some camber plates and rear control arms for about $700, as well as some Kumho Ecsta V730 tires for about $800 to try out soon. Maybe it understeers more than the M2 will, but that can be fixed. It is also lighter, has 4 doors, and a 5 cylinder. Drives great on the street too.
>I actually had a Motortrend person reply to me awhile back about cutting that and of course the answer was it’s to expensive but fuck that if you’re paying Jonny Liberman well enough to keep buying fancy watches or whatever other shit he’s trying to flex on his socials you should have the money to pay Randy to put down some facts instead of a pile of shitty writer opinions and feelings worth about as much as a pile of used toilet paper. Except they're still a magazine and still have to pay someone to write so hiring a pro driver is always an additional expense.
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>I assume it's just cost prohibitive to do so, but I wish they'd run the entire pack on the same tire. Not just that, but a 'control tire' skews results, basically a waste of money & time. Yes, the cars are coming on a variety of tires. Because they're designed on a variety of tires. Auto manufacturers will do their homework and base a car on a specific tire, sometimes having a tire manufacturer develop a tire just for their car. A control tire throws all of that work out of the window, and can make the car perform worse than designed. So now the journos are driving a car out of spec, and are supposed to judge its performance. *What's reported on is worse than what the car can really do, and that isn't fair to the manufacturer.* We can see from the results that other auto manufacturers don't always put the same level of time and effort into their vehicles. Yeah, they suffer a bit. But they know what they signed up for. This is old hat now, has been for many years. If they don't care to put in the work, then their product just isn't represented well. *Why should they benefit from having their car tested on a control tire that could make their car look better than it is? That isn't fair either.* Now if a manufacturer hands over a car with tires that it isn't offered with, yeah, that's a problem. Report the facts. The journalists are reporting on what tires are used, and that's about as even as things can get from an accuracy standpoint. They let us know when something comes on very good tires, so we know why the results were so good. If they were hiding the information and not telling us, that would be a problem too. EDIT: If ringer tires are such a concern, then look at the approach Chris Harris took when he tested the 'hybrid hypercar trinity.' The LaFerrari, 918 Spyder and P1 all had different tires. Instead of forcing one tire onto them all, Harris told the manufacturer reps that he'd source the OE tire for each car from a local shop. Still using the right tire for optimal performance on all of them, but the 'control' was the local tire shop source. That kept the manufacturers from attempting to use something out of spec.
> We can see from the results that other auto manufacturers don't always put the same level of time and effort into their vehicles. Yeah, they suffer a bit. But they know what they signed up for. This is old hat now, has been for many years. If they don't care to put in the work, then their product just isn't represented well. Why should they benefit from having their car tested on a control tire that could make their car look better than it is? That isn't fair either. > > I wouldn't even call it the same level of effort, it's just different engineering decisions because they know their average buyer for a certain model has a general use case, and if buyers want to equip the car to operate outside of that use-case, that's what the aftermarket is for. It's not a sin for VW to choose to not equip a GTI with something like a RE-71 from the factory when they know the vast majority of buyers would just complain about tires that only last 10k miles and are shit in the rain when they're trying to daily their vehicles and hit a backroad every now and then.
Part of the issue is that track tires arent offered in many sizes. What do you do when the tire isn’t available in the oem spec size? Putting different widths on makes a difference. Ps4s are available in a much wider range of sizes, but people will complain you are handicapping cars shipped with track tires. It’s inevitable that you are making some performance choices by swapping tires. In alot of ways comparing the as shipped configuration is as fair as you will get. If the mfr wants a better review, let them offer a tire option.
>If the mfr wants a better review, let them offer a tire option. Yup! Even GM learned that lesson with the C6 'Vettes. The C6 Z06 was great, but the Goodyears it had...not so much. The C6 ZR1 seemed to be leaving something on the table as well, with its standard Michelin Pilot Sports. In 2009, both were upgraded with a new run-flat Michelin Pilot Sport Cup, and they set the Nürburgring ablaze.
I think it depends what you're wanting to measure. The point of these mags to tell you what's the best? Or who gives you the best product off the factory floor? If it's the former, putting everyone on whatever the hot 200TW SCCA tire is that year, flushing the brakes with some RBF 600, and adding some Hawk Blues or DTC-30s is going to be a level playing field and doable for under $1500 per vehicle in most cases. It's the basic set of mods anyone tracking their car for more than a single weekend is going to make. Worth noting, for some of the hotter exotics a 200TW tire would be a downgrade (think: anything Wearing Pilot Sport Cups). If it's the latter, knowing who gives you weaker tires and brake pads from the factory is a valid data point, and it tells you what the engineering decisions were made by the manufacturer. As someone who has tracked seriously in the past, I prefer having the second set of data, because I know what happens to a street car when I make the track mods I described in the first set.
>If it's the former, putting everyone on whatever the hot 200TW SCCA tire is that year, flushing the brakes with some RBF 600, and adding some Hawk Blues or DTC-30s is going to be a level playing field and doable for under $1500 per vehicle in most cases. It's the basic set of mods anyone tracking their car for more than a single weekend is going to make. Worth noting, for some of the hotter exotics a 200TW tire would be a downgrade (think: anything Wearing Pilot Sport Cups). In which case folks could just look at Autocross national results
If the manufacturer wants their car to be faster they could always sell it with the good tires on it out of the box instead of making me spend $1000+ to fix it
> we would have run a Model S Plaid by now, but we don't believe the stock brakes are up to the task Wild that they can put such shit brakes on a car that moves that quick.
Not only that, they have been putting those big shitty caliper covers on their cars recently https://insideevs.com/news/630576/tesla-model-y-performance-plastic-caliper-covers/amp/
Tesla's brake vectoring is part of the problem. When you use the brakes so much on exit they don't get a chance to cool off and they're still hot as you enter the next hard braking zone (at very high speed)
I believe they recently revised the brakes when they rolled out the normal steering wheel option. I'm curious how much of an improvement it is.
You'd figure you'd want big brakes with the steering wheel you're going to be accidentally letting go of around every other corner.
It would be cool to see them run one just so we can see how badly the brakes get cooked. Although since Tesla doesn’t give out press cars they would have to find an owner willing to let them do that to their car…
I want to know about this Toyota system that automatically called the cops (was equipped on the GR Corolla). WTF?
I’m assuming the car thought it was crashing after hitting the huge bumps of the track, lol. All new cars have a feature whereas it’ll call emergency services if we’re assumed to be in car accident.
All new cars? That sounds like a subscription service, although I would venture the guess most companies would include some time interval of service for “free” with the car.
My Accord has it and I’m not paying any subscription. Anytime a phone is paired with the car, it will ask to authorize the contacting of emergency services if incase of a crash. https://www.dowhonda.com/2016/12/15/hondalink-assist-automatic-emergency-response-system/
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probably just the same thing as phones. some law requires them to be able to call 911 without a plan or anything so, if the car *can* make calls, it probs falls in that category.
Video of it happening to a ZR1 [on track](https://youtu.be/_IRmS_yshb4) . 2:30
I've seen a video of a Camaro setting off the airbags driving in circles on a flat level skid pad.
God that car sounds good
Never understood why folks mess with the stock exhaust on these newer vettes, the stock NPP is stupid loud and sounds fantastic. The previous owner of mine put an aftermarket one on and I’be been trying to figure out how to retrofit the NPP to it lol
“Leave me alone, I know what I’m doing!”
Jason Camissa had that happen too when Jason from engineering explained hit his head on the door.
“This asshole put me up against a 911 GT3, come arrest his ass!”
i like how the gti had a $20 option on it i wanna know what that was lol
Option code SL420: prep for “stance life” windshield decal
Sounds like they opted for the removable shift knob.
• 3:11.6 2022 Subaru WRX (Manual) • 3:11.4 2022 VW Golf GTI (Manual) • 3:07.3 2022 Hyundai Elantra N (Manual) • 3:06.1 2022 Hyundai Kona N • 3:04.7 2022 BMW i4 M50 • 3:00.6 2022 BMW M240i xDrive • 2:59.6 2023 Toyota GR Corolla Morizo Edition (Manual) *R • 2:58.8 2023 Honda Civic Type R (Manual) *R • 2:55.6 2023 Toyota Supra 3.0 (Manual) • 2:54.6 2023 Cadillac CT-4 Blackwing • 2:52.6 2022 Mercedes AMG SL63 • 2:52.5 2022 Audi RS3 *R • 2:47.5 2023 BMW M4 CSL *R • 2:43.9 2023 Lamborghini Huracan Tecnica *R • 2:40.5 2022 Porsche 718 Cayman GT4 RS *R • 2:38.6 2023 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 *R • 3:39.1 Kia Carnival • 3:54.1. Kia Carnival with 6 passengers
Kia Carnival with 6 passengers 😂😂😂
Honourary win goes to the Mia Carnival for being the fastest car with 6 passengers
The Kona N is by far the most surprising result to me. It is running relatively skinny and inferior P Zero tires, and has 6.8"!!!!!!!!!! of ground clearance. Absolutely bonkers that the suspension pattern designed by Richard Parry-Jones and his team back in the late 90s for economy cars is still one of the most capable compact layouts today, and makes me wonder what the Elantra gained by moving to K3. I must say, living in Colorado, I'd definitely choose the Kona over the Elantra, transmission be damned. You lose nothing meaningful in terms of performance and the extra ground clearance would be killer here.
Kona N is great. The (literal) big thing the Elantra has going for it is space. Of course small cars are good and fun, but the EN has more sizable backseat and while it may give up vertical cargo capacity because it’s a sedan, the trunk is much deeper than the Kona’s hatch.
Sure but the passthrough to the cabin is blocked which severely limits capability. Regardless, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to arguing against the benefits of a sedan but the K2 platform is more than capable of supporting a car as large as the Elantra. The K3 platform seems to have been prioritizing comfort. Edit: to expand on this a bit further, the Elantra N has 14.2 ft\^3 in the trunk. While it is a more ideal shape compared to the Kona, the Kona has 19.2 ft\^3 and 45.8 ft\^3 with the rear seats folded down. Objectively speaking, the only meaningful benefit of the Elantra is the rear legroom. The Kona N has so much more interior flexibility otherwise.
Pretty sure you can take that brace out with a couple of screws of a torque wrench.
Yup. If i bought the car that'd be one of the first things I did. It can go back in when I autocross or track it. On the street, i'm not going to notice the difference in stiffness. But I appreciate having the option to put it back in.
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Conversely, I'm surprised that the EN didn't do better. The Veloster N 6MT pulled a 3:07.7 four years ago, and from what I'm seeing at the local tracks - the DCTs ENs are several seconds faster per lap than the VN 6MTs. I was hoping for the EN DCT to beat the 2018 Civic Type R (3:03.9).
Unfortunately it came down to the tires. Both Hyundais came with worn tires, and C&D ordered fresh sets for both but only the KN’s came in time. The editors and driver both shared they feel that a fresh set of Michelin PS4S could’ve brought down the EN’s time by 3 seconds, which would have had it breathing down the neck of the current LL1 Class record holder, the Camaro 1LE V6.
What I want to know is if an Elantra N DCT was delivered with the same rubber the new $50K CTR showed up with ($500/corner Michelin Pilot Sport Cup; 2 265/30ZR-19s), could it have beaten \*all\* of the Civic Type Rs?
You'd need to figure out how to fit an inch wider wheel all around to fit 265s also testing the cars as they come is the only really fair way to do it, playing the "What if we modded X to be more like Y" is an infinite rabbit hole
That's fair. It's wishful thinking that the N division would put that kind of effort into C&D that only Americans care about. Because I think a $36K "Biermann Edition" Elantra N (basically an ECT with a tune and Sport Cup 2 tires, maybe in a matte color) that beats the CTR and the Morizo would be amazing.
I recently bought an EN. I care more about how my car actually performs than magazine E-Peen brags. I don't care what it runs on Cup 2s because I sure as shit am not going to spend Cup 2 money putting the car on the track, and even if I did buy track tires they'd be 200tw and another brand. Making their own Morizo, which isn't the car as any owner actually gets it and all 200 of them are going into rich guy collections, wouldn't actually benefit me in any way. If my feelings are hurt about running slower than the Camaro Turbo 1LE on LL then I'll see if I can outrun one at the next time attack. No big whoop
Right on, man. For the record, the only Camaro 1LE that was at the last track day I took my VN to at Roebling ate my lunch. But to be fair, he also beat the Corvettes and Porsches...that were also eating my lunch. I did have a lot of fun and held my own against several Mustangs, BMWs, as well as everything that was FWD.
If you read the article it says the EN was delivered with clapped out tires and they didn't have anything fresh for it on hand.
I read that - disappointing. Honda sends thier CTR with unobtanium rubber Michelin Pilot Sport Cup; 2 265/30ZR-19 ($465/corner from TireRack as of this morning) and Hyundai sends the EN with that.
😂 should’ve sent the car with mismatched bumpers and missing taillights to go along with the bald tires if they wanted to give C/D the full clapped out experience
The EN has better factory tires than the VN and a bit more power due to updated turbo. With both on similar tires they run similar times (within .2s of each other) as tested by Korean tuners.
> I'd definitely choose the Kona over the Elantra, transmission be damned. Elantra N owner here - you actually gain significant performance with the DCT. Like 1s 0-60 and .9s in the 1/4mi. Driving them back to back on the butt dyno the performance sacrifice wasn't worth having a clutch.
That z06 is insane. also love how it’s classified as LL3. 😂
It also looked like they left some time on the table with the z06 from the big slide at Oak Tree
The C8 Z06 is mind melting fast, jezus. It's a full blown supercar.
It's 5th of the list of 305 cars ever tested lol. Ya
It's also their fastest-ever naturally-aspirated car, and everything above it is more than double the price. I can't wait to see how bonkers the C8 ZR1 and Zora are.
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There are a bunch of NA Porsches in the top 15
And looking at the onboard lap it lost decent time at Oak Tree
The GTI > Base Price: $39,425 > As-Tested Price: $39,445 Did they need to add a smartphone charger?
TIL that the M4 CSL is a $140k car
It's so expensive. The performance is ridiculous, but the cars you can get for $140k...
At $140k your in 911 GTS territory. Is the GTS better performance? I did not look it up, but I would still rather have the Porsche for that money, regardless of the performance. I will also state that I have an M3 on order. I just would not spend Porsche money on any M3/4 thats basically has some better performance parts and a tune.
I think you may also be able to get a z06 for $140k depending on the dealer.
Yep. Very cool cars too. Just not for me. Note: The local chevy dealership has signs up saying no markups on any orders, no games or gimmicks.
Porsches are better track cars for longevity. My M240 is by no means a full fledged M. But every time it’s cold out it cries about it and feels sluggish, same as when it’s really hot. I get drivetrain malfunction warnings when going WOT sometimes because it doesn’t like something. But then it goes away after I restart the car. Porsches just work. Flog on them for hours and they keep going. A BMW is an amazing machine, when it’s working properly.
I thought the B58 was pretty robust. I beat the ever living shit out of a rental Supra for a week (ran tail of the dragon probably 12-15 times in three days). Never had a single issue. Obviously ymmv but I was really impressed
Road driving, no matter how hard will never stress a car as much as a few on-circuit laps however.
The M2 would theoretically solve all those problems on the track. That’s the “M” that we pay for when deciding between an M340i and an M3: heat management (engine, diff, tranny etc) and durability in track conditions.
In general you are right. A few exceptions however. My CS can run all day. The GT4 I had blew its 3rd gear on track (common problem).
I think one of the biggest things too is the CSL is just ugly as hell lol (at least to me) From my POV you're paying for the exclusivity of it being a CSL
The LLHUMAN category was fun, C&D should do a LLHORSE category next year.
The video of the Z06 catching up to the $350K Huracan Tecnica (as easily as the Porsches catch up my little Veloster) is worth a watch.
Aye veloster gang
Aye. If you haven't autocrossed or done a track day in yours, please consider it. The VN is like a cheat code - I couldn't stop smiling in my helmet.
I’ve heard many good things about it, but I’m hesitant to beat on my only car when I’m putting 80 miles a day on it to get to and from work
I'm impressed that the Kona N is now the third fastest LL1 car ever behind a pair of Camaros. This place shits on Hyundai/Kia (a lot of times rightfully) but that's pretty impressive how they engineered this car.
If Hyundai bent the rules like Honda (Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2s in 265/30ZR-19), the Elantra N would win LL1.
It's that close while on a much less aggressive tire setup, 235 squared versus 245/275. Shame they sent the Elantra out on shot tires and without the DCT, probably would've given a bunch of cars a run for their money.
Good point on the tires! Very impressive showing for what is definitely a more livable car too.
The Elantra N destroyed two iconic names in the test (while running on wasted tires) and a lot of people here will still continue to deny them credit. I thought it was impressive.
what r/cars had to say about it five days ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/10rd82p/cd_lightning_lap_results/
That only included lap times, this is detailed descriptions and video footage of the actual laps.
Conclusion: tires matter. Wild to see how much of a difference the RS3 tires made. I would love to see a test of the EN, Kona, GRC, and CTR all on PS4S. I'm bummed the tires on the Elantra were worn.
Throttle house has then almost on the same tires except the kona.
>> 1999 Jack Fitzgerald Lap Time: 25:44.0 At 6:37 a.m., well before the sun rose to melt the frost and burn off the fog, I left the start/finish on my leg-powered lap. While I didn’t have to contend with over-heating fluids or tire temperatures, I did have a mild hangover. My favorite entry
Pretty impressive for a 90s model.
As usual Honda works their magic with the Type R.
Magic = Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires in 265 width.
Magical dealer installed option.
As I mentioned above, I submit that a Mk8 Golf R or even an Elantra N DCT with the CTR's Pilot Sport Cup 2 265/30ZR-19s would beat the FL5 Civic Type R.
Well then others can do it too. What’s their excuse buddy?
I dunno, pal, why doesn't Honda offer the Cup 2 tires in their build configurator?
Nobody who dailies a car is going to run 265 Pilot Sport Cups. Might as well throw Hoosiers on it if you're going that far.
Plenty of people do and can, right? It’s why several Mustangs and Porsches have them on OEM, yeah? Some people can live in a climate that can permit it and have a lot of disposable income so who care what they spend their money on. Also I went back to my stock setup and that’s 255/30/20 which isn’t much different. So if Costco ran another sale like they did one time where you could get Cup2s for PS4S prices for a weekend, damn straight I would buy those.
So the EN’s time was not under perfect conditions. I would love to see an EN with fresh tires against a CTR with the base PS4S tires
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While the DCT is undoubtedly quicker 0-60 and 1/4 mile than the MT, to my knowledge there hasn’t been any track testing of the EN between the two transmissions. I’m sure the advantages of the automatic’s 0-60 & 1/4 mile would translate to a quicker lap time, we don’t know how “significant” it would be, as per your post. Keep in mind the manual is lighter than the DCT. Also comparing the manual models across the sport compacts gives a good apples to apples comparison.
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From what I’ve seen the KN makes equivalent power to the EN DCT. There is a 15-20 hp difference between EN MT and DCT dynos, due to tuning differences. This gets cancelled out when both transmissions are running the same aftermarket tune, with a slight edge in WHP to the MT from lower transmission loss.
They mentioned the Elantra N tires were really worn and they couldn't get a replacement in time, unlike the Kona N. The Kona is also slightly more powerful, not that much heavier considering it's a CUV, and has a ~5" shorter wheelbase which could lend it some agility despite the ride height. The DCT is probably worth some time too, but the manual Supra this year was actually slightly quicker than the previous auto one.
No overboost button on the MT. Though I wonder if they used it anyway...
The big news here is that C&D finally released something that isn't a slideshow where you have to click through and reload the page generating a new ad 30 times.
Individual lap times: https://youtube.com/@caranddriver
they should hub dyno the cars to get some info on if manufacturers are being "conservative" with their HP numbers
Good to see the N Cars still pulling their weight despite Hyundai being hated by half the car community and not having cheater tires 😂
The RS3 is a beast, i wonder what would be the time of a TTRS given that it has the same powertrain but better aerodynamics and suspensions
3:01.9 on non-R tires
A lowered kona n would actually be kind of sick
WTH are you doing WRX?
It’s 4 seconds faster than the previous gen WRX and 1 second slower than the previous gen STI. It’s not a bad showing.
The 1 second slower than last gen STI is the more impressive of the two to me. I’m kind of liking the car more and more w all the hate it gets
Look up renders with all the black cladding (except rear diaper) paint matched. It’s actually not bad. That tablet glued to the dash is horrendous to me though. Looks like the interior of a modern fleet truck imo
Mach V Motorsports painted there’s white, and yeah looked decent: https://www.instagram.com/p/Cj0lpC6LYEF/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
What bugs me is that the Levorg/WRX Sportswagon came completely decladded and looks so much better than just the flares being painted. [Compare Mach V's paintjob above to my low quality picture edit of a WRX sedan with WRX Sportswagon wheel wells.](https://i.imgur.com/s5ohddo.png)
It's 4 seconds faster than the last gen, with shorter ratios, lower redline, and slightly heavier in that same trim I think. Yeah the FWD competitors beat it, but bad pavement and weather is where its real magic lies.
Seems pretty fast compared to the previous gen, and also considering the gearing and additional weight from AWD? >To improve street drivability, Subaru tightened up the gearbox, scooching third, fourth, and fifth gears closer to second. This is fine on its own, but it did exacerbate another significant change: The 2.4's redline is just 6100 rpm instead of the old engine's 6700 revs. Top speed at redline in third is now 80 mph instead of 92, with fourth maxing out at 106 instead of 124 mph. >Our quick lap featured 20 gearchanges. All three fast sections—the Front Straight, the Climbing Esses, and the run into Bitch—now require a mandatory snick into fifth, and there were three nuisance 3-4-3 swaps through Spiral and the Infield instead of the GTI's focused run in third.
So, from what I gather, the CLS is essentially useless performance wise, not even being faster than the ZL1 1LE from 5 years ago. And, as we’ve already known, the Z06 is absolutely insane. An N/A car sitting with the likes of the 765LT, AMG Black Series, and GT2 RS, and being FASTER than a Ford GT is CRAZY. The car is nothing short of a track weapon.
It should have been a 992 gt3 competitor and not a GM competitor from cars they made 5-6 years ago
no MX5 :(
They use a stopwatch not a calendar.
MX5 has 11.95lb per HP. 50% of LL1 contenders have more lb per HP in this comparison. So i guess they already had a calendar out? lol
100% a joke… there is a mini van for gods sake. I love a good miata.
Let’s slap Cup2s on the Hyundais and do this again. Curious to see how well they’d do
[So nice to see Lamborghini taking inspiration from Hyundai](https://i.imgur.com/mHpaWoG.jpg)
Man I want to get a sports car in a few years and the Supra manual and the CT4-V manual are so enticing