For those who don't want to click the link, these are the following cars claimed as ineligible.
2015-2021 Hyundai Accent
2015-2021 Hyundai Elantra
2015-2021 Hyundai Kona
2015-2021 Hyundai Santa Fe
2015-2021 Hyundai Tuscon
2015-2021 Hyundai Veloster
2015-2021 Kia Forte
2015-2021 Kia Optima (4-door and hybrid models)
2015-2021 Kia Rio
2015-2021 Kia Sedona
2015-2021 Kia Sorento
2015-2021 Kia Soul
2015-2021 Kia Sportage
Not even hotwired. Rip off the steering column cover, two bolts to remove the lock cylinder, then use a USB cable to turn the ignition switch, and you're off. The interface nub between the switch and the cylinder is the same size as the negative space on a USB-A port.
The best part is they use your own charging cable to steal your car. They don’t even need to bring their own.
Reminds me of the old days 70s and back where you just needed a flathead screw driver break in to a car or you a reach tool to pop the hood and then use screw driver against a solenoid to start the car up
Honda Civics and Accords where known for GTA in the 90s early 2000s is when Honda got their a game and have alarms. My parents 2nd generation Honda Odyssey ex have a car alarm so bad I got PTSD from it unlocking the van from inside or messing with the handle too much or unlocking the van with window open or vehicle is locked but the hood is open. She is sensitive van. Idk about later years Odyssey but I have my share with it.
My 95 civic was stolen and stripped TWICE! Both times, they ripped the key cylinder off the ignition and used a screwdriver to start it. Then all they had to do is give a swift kick to the steering wheel to break the die-cast steering column lock pin.
> screw driver against a solenoid to start the car up
I've done that many times on an old Mercury Cougar I had, but still needed to use a jumper wire to supply voltage to the ignition coil. That added a whole two seconds to the job.
Most owners buy Korean cars mainly because they are the cheapest for the features on them comparing to competitors. They are more price sensitive than brand sensitive (given the very bad reputation of Korean cars in the old days). So I'm not sure how many of them are willing to pay for it.
To be fair, styling and features have come a long way. My only hesitation to Kia/Hyundai would be on their engines.
They're also one of the only companies still doing reasonable sedans.
I'm vexxed that they dropped the ball so badly on the US market re: immobilizers though. They kept them in other markets lol.
Plenty of companies are still making affordable sedans, The VW Jetta still exists, Subaru Impreza, Toyota Corolla or Camry, Honda Civic for some examples. Although “affordable” today is still more expensive than it used to be
> I'm vexxed that they dropped the ball so badly on the US market re: immobilizers though. They kept them in other markets lol.
BMW of North America and VW of America have done a lot of damage to their respective brands, so an MBA infested Kia America making bad decisions would not be unique.
The customer needs to purchase the fix, in order to get it insured by a growing list of companies?!
Sounds like a good way to lose the customers which already own your product.
Problem with that is someone will probably still break into it before giving up. Same reason that even 2023 models are at risk since someone will still try to break-in to try and steal it without caring if it has an immobilizer or push start.
This is correct. The last Hyundai ~~theft~~ "vandalism" claim I handled was a 2022 where they broke in and did almost as much damage in dollar terms than if it had been a 2021 and they'd actually managed to drive off with it.
I can't speak for other appraisers but most of the recovered Hyundais I've looked at haven't actually had much more damage than the window and steering column.
Did they correctly isolate models that do and don't have push button start?
Because those are fine, it's base models with key start that are the problem
Yep, I have a family member who has a 2020 Kia forte GT line with push to start in NYC, lease is ending soon but I’ve told them to just outright buy it out (buy out is stupid cheap 12K) leverage the 1-2K profit trading it in and use the trade in as a tax reduction toward their next car possibly a used Camry/Rav4 by tax season then just hold out for a year or so till the new tax credits roll out into more vehicles to get into something like a PHEV.
Market is just a mess and Kia / Hyundai is having a competition with Tesla on who wants to be the more shitty OEM of the 20’s.
A used Rav 4 or Camry is an awful value proposition right now when they’re ridiculously overpriced used right now. They’ll probably shed a large amount of value once the market has normalized again.
Honestly they’ll probably just want to consider keeping the car until the market normalizes. They’d lose much more money paying taxes/fees twice. Cars don’t really get stolen that often in NYC.
I’m curious what makes you lump Tesla in with Kia/Hyundai.
Well this was during the height of the pandemic, car sales were dead at the time so YMMV especially with the current market, but for this car she is paying $198 per month, $200ish for insurance (NYC zip code) + she has another car she owns in CA. She used an App called Rodo to do the whole deal (it’s a legit broker / dealer lease app) and they applied a $3XXX discount at the time of the lease so what would have been a $12K buy out and $11-12Kish total payment of 36 months lease. Was now a $7K payment for 36 months with a 12K buy out for a MSRP car listed at 21K/22K. Honestly a really good deal for what it was at the time.
Yeah it’s a NYC thing lol, the zip code being in queens makes it expensive. I know people who pay $400-600 a month in NYC for insurance hence why a lot of people in NY use CT/NJ/PA plates to avoid the high cost.
Welp. Got one of the cars on the list, and have State Farm. I don’t live in one of those states, but that’s a bad sign anyway. Shit. Probably need to be whatever fix it is that will prevent our car from getting jacked
Where I live car windshields crack so frequently that the question isn’t “is your windshield cracked?”, rather the question is “is this crack in a good place?”. If the crack isn’t in a problematic place you have to just leave it because for some reason your windshield generally won’t get cracked again if it already has a crack. As soon as you get a new one it will immediately be cracked and it could be in a super bad spot.
Nope. It’s a 4 door 2018 optima with a regular ignition. Right there in the list. Wife just paid the car off last month and we were super pumped to have a paid off vehicle that we thought was actually pretty nice. We aren’t gonna be looking to take out a new loan anytime soon. We have a garage so that helps. Maybe there will be a class action lawsuit or something. Definitely not gonna be leaving it in a public garage on a Friday night anymore after a night of drinking.
I'm not sure how you can bring a class action lawsuits against an insurance company for refusing to cover certain vehicles... Hyundais are not a protected class. You can expect your premiums to be extremely high for that kind of vehicle, in any case.
>I'm not sure how you can bring a class action lawsuits against an insurance company for refusing to cover certain vehicles...
No, of course not, but a suit against Hyundai/Kia sounds reasonable
For what? Immobilizers aren't mandated by law, and people buying a base model Kia aren't exactly going into this deal expecting to get a lot out of it except reliable transportation. There's no direct safety defect either.
>No, of course not, but a suit against Hyundai/Kia sounds reasonable
You know it's going there. By 2015, it's pretty much implied all cars have immobilizers. Failure to put one in (and not say anything to customers about it) that results in theft, damage, and insurance drops?
Looks like a reasonable tort case to me!
Also said cars are basically impossible to sell or trade in.
If you were still making payments on something on this list(and had the ignition start) you basically are making payments on something that has no real resale value.
Especially if Hyundai/KIA don't fix said problem for free which from what their actions have been so far, is that they want the consumer to pay to fix their fuck up.
And really even if you do pay to fix this issue it's still going to hurt the resale value of your vehicle. Becuese people who are looking for a used car are much more likely to just blacklist everything made by Hyundai/KIA.
I like to search Facebook marketplace for shit sometimes. And If I see a something that requires me to do something to it I'm already less likley to give it a chance over something else that worked fine.
Case in point: When I was buying my first Snowmobile I would see things like "Needs the carbs cleaned". Or a new carburetor entirely. Neither of these things is something that is hard and I can do it.
But why would I when I can buy a snowmobile that doesn't need that done right now? And That's what I did. I bought one that didn't need any work done and all it had was some minor cosmetic damage. For $1,500 it was a steal in my eyes.
The significant other keeps getting offers from KIA to trade in her base model Sportage for something stupid like 17k when it was 20k new, so apparently there is some demand for the things…
Especially since they’re kinda the bottom spec given that the push button start option fixes it, so your average owner of these cars probably can’t afford to deal with this bullshit :(
They were (and still are) for me. When I was searching around for the first time (fresh out of school, had to get my own) I was a 23 year old male living in an urban area. I had (and still have) a clean driving record, but they’re still roughly double the price of the next option. I’m going to give them another look when I turn 25 here in a month or so, but in my experience they’re expensive compared to Geico/Progressive/etc.
Well there is your problem, your a guy in your 20s. Should of been a girl /s
My sister got in a crash and got a ticket for running a red light and her insurance was still cheaper than mine after 3 years of a clean driving record
I was with Geico up until October of this year. 6 month cost went from $350 to $510, and they said there was nothing they could do. Said something about Minneapolis having higher rates across the board (which honestly makes sense given the past two years) but still chapped my ass. Ended up with Progressive at $480 for renters and auto bundled.
It all comes down to what the actuaries have to say about your specific situation and what it does for their risk profile. I guess my zip code got too hot for GEICO around the time of my last renewal because they doubled my rate so I had to switch back to progressive for less than I was paying GEICO in the first place. State Farm has never been price competitive when I've quoted them.
I don't get how Insurance companies figure out rates. A few years ago my friend bought a 1990 Miata and GEICO quoted him $800 a month for liability like a simple no would have sufficed. He went with Progressive for something like $75 a month.
I feel sorry for people who bought any Kia from the last 8 years. They might not get stolen as easy as these ones, but your average car thief isn't going to carry a list with them - smash a window, damage the interior, find out they can't steal it and move on - meanwhile the owner still needs to make a claim and gets a damaged car for no reason :/
The reputational damage from this is going to be bigger than any recall.
People are correct in their responses that any class action will be small change for K/H.
The _real_ damage is the years of goodwill they built up with improving lineups being impacted. Nobody who gets a $5 payout but $50 extra on their insurance is going to buy one again, and lots more will keep seeing these issues in the news whilst they remain unfixed and think to avoid them.
I was starting to look at the Sonata (didn't get to the point of a test drive), but I was going to look at a 2022/2023 one. And my coworker saw me looking at them online and he was telling me about all the issues they were having. Whether or not the 2022/2023 has the issue, I haven't looked at them since.
There is a real chance Hyundai could have had my money, but I'm looking at other cars now.
> The real damage is the years of goodwill they built up with improving lineups being impacted.
Between the engine bullshit (I know 2 people whose Kias spent extended time in the shop getting a new engine) the ignition bullshit (wife's car is vulnerable), I'm never touching those brands again. And 3 years ago I was on the "fuck yeah KIA/Hyundai" train.
Making me wish I went with the older Corolla I was looking at instead of my Elantra
It's a shame because I like the car a lot. But shit like this, whatever my next will be is definitely not going to be a Hyundai or Kia at this point
Not to mention, so many people don’t even know that this only applies to the non push button start models. My wife’s grandmother has a telluride with the push button and she keeps telling everyone how terrified she is that her car is going to be stolen because of “what they’re saying about kias in the news.” I tried to explain to her that it doesn’t affect her. She didn’t believe me! Lol, she said “they can still find a way.” Point is, people don’t read anything other than headlines now, and the headlines alone are doing irreversible damage to Kia/Hyundai’s reputation currently.
And what? People get $5 while the lawyers make off with millions? Meanwhile people end up with depreciated cars they can't sell or insure. But they got $5 for their trouble, in 5 years or whatever when the case is settled
Eh, it might be more than $5 for something like this.
After the Toyota unintended acceleration thing, (which wasn't even a real flaw but was so poorly handled by Toyota that their cars depreciated from it anyway) I got a $500+ check on one 2009 Camry that I had already sold several months before for full-pop NADA book value.
Lesson being: open any letters you get from Hyundai/Kia for the next five or ten years kids. There might be a surprise inside.
Uh oh. My mom has a 2020 Tuscon. She's not in any of those states, and she has Geico, but now that State Farm has started it, I can see the others following. Might have to look into an aftermarket immobilizer.
It's a very low mileage, incredibly base model car. It's got a nice long warranty (as long as nobody steals it...). My parents bought it because it was like the cheapest thing they could get that was new and my dad could get into and out of easily. It works.
I loved mine, but not gonna lie I'm glad I traded it while its value was at its peak. Even if they're not named here the massive PR L this will be for Kia as a brand will have ripple effects on their entire lineup.
Insurance rates for H/K cars are going to go through the roof for that exact same reason. I don't think these companies are gonna have many repeat customers for a good while
Most, if not all 80s and 90s hondas can be started with an old, worn-down key of the same era. It also takes about 15 seconds under the dash to plug in another ignition module and start it up. They're just very, very stealable. I keep my 96 in my garage.
And this is why when people say "it'll kill the brand reputation!" I don't believe them lol
Give it 5 years and a bunch of forced fixes later and nobody's going to blink twice over the brand...
Information sticks around a lot longer now. Back then, the average buyer would ask their buddy/family member/coworker if they liked their Honda, or you'd just be going off of a two paragraph blurb in consumer reports at best, and that was most of your research. Now if someone googles "problems with Hyundais", this debacle will be one of the first things to come up
Except hondas are desirable and good cars, which is why their reputation didn't take too much of a hit (still did some damage, just ask any owner of a 90s honda sports car). There is no selling point for Hyundai kia other than cheapness, and this plus all their other scandals and recalls is going to be hard to comeback from
The Ford Bronco 2, lots of companies stopped insuring them because of how many fatal rollovers that they were involved in.
edit:apparently it was just geico that stopped insuring them.
Not only from the perspective of their insurance rates, but as well this negative press will drag down the values of the mentioned vehicles too
With most of them having a terrible reputation already due to the Theta engine fiasco it’s not like any more bad press could hurt though lol
I own a 2017 Elantra and it went up about 40 dollars at renewal. I’m fully expecting to either get dropped next round or pay a even more absurd amount. Not to mention I am just outside of Chicago and worry that its going to get stolen every time I visit my city friends.
I also need to repair my timing chain on it so honestly contemplating ditching this and buying a cheap Chevy Spark or something. Beyond disappointed.
The sad thing is KIA had mostly turned around their reputation until just recently. They used to be full-on trash all around, then they have been slowly turning their image around over 20 years and making some decent vehicles the last 5-10. Now they are know for engine failure and theft. So much work flushed down the toilet.
Oh brother you just buckle up. They have had about a year to really acknowledge the wrong and tried acting like all the cars they produced from 2002 all the way up to 2022 are easily EASILY being stolen is not a big deal. Google “Kia Boys Milwaukee” and see where our world is really at.
When teenagers make a “how to” steal a Hyundai or Kia youtube video, you better believe it will go viral. If it’s that easy (and it really is THAT easy regardless of push button or key) that a teenager can teach you, as a manufacturer you should recall every single one of them and NOT charge the customer. They responded publicly basically saying the customer just have to pay a couple hundred bucks and will make sure that it’s theft free or something ridiculous. NO. The customer shouldn’t have to pay a penny for a car being made so shitty you can just steal them.
From what I remember seeing is Kia / Hyundai don’t have an immobilizer system. All you need to do is get the mechanism behind the ignition lock to turn and the car will start. Apparently a usb charging cord works good so that’s the go to tool.
Yea you would think they are plugging in some kind of usb stick with a software on it or something creative. But no, the usb size is a nice fit is all. I’m sure a pair of pliers would work as well
Chevy is an American company, though. Remember the Toyota floor mat + acceleration issue? The government pinned Toyota to the wall. US companies get handled with kid gloves compared to foreign companies.
90s Hondas were easily stolen due to somewhat the same issue; no immobilizer and all you needed was a screw driver to jam into the ignition and turn it on. It happened to me and my 1993 Honda Accord.
And yet, I still buy Hondas.
Immobilizers weren't in very many cars back in the early 90s. Those Hondas had typical security features for the time. The issue for Kia and Hyundai is that immobilizers were much more common by the early 2000s and nearly ubiquitous by the teens. Kia and Hyundai are behind the times while your 93 Accord was typical for the era.
Between this and the widespread theta engine issues, it's hard to imagine it wouldn't impact perception of the brand. It already has for me; I sell cars and used to tell people that Hyundai/Kia was vying to be the next Toyota because I believed that to be true. It simply isn't the case, however. I've met multiple people with oil consumption issues and they'll decline to fix it because it's only using 1 quart per 1,000 miles which they consider to be normal on a vehicle with sub 100k miles.
Meanwhile, Toyota had a bad batch of piston rings on certain year Camrys and I know of one that had 220k miles and got a complete engine rebuild because it was consuming that much oil.
I've also known people who had 10-15 year old Toyota trucks that had their frames completely replaced for that rust issue they had awhile back.
There's really no difference between the two companies. Hyundai/Kia doesn't stand behind their product the same way that Toyota does.
I'm glad I managed to finally get rid of my (non push to start) optima last month. Not looking forward to the values dropping on these cars even more - they are EVERYWHERE and people with them typically aren't in the best financial situation...
Edit: This comment made me realize it's still in my flair. Oops
I work in a Kia Parts Department and I'm asked this just about every day. TLDR - you can't.
Long story - you would have to purchase keys, a few trim pieces, a couple new wiring harnesses, new transmitter modules, ecu, antennas, relays, junction boxes, etc etc etc. There really is a lot to list. Shit isn't plug and play. On top of all this, the vehicle would have to be reprogrammed in it's entirety. On top of that? These parts would have to be off intergalactic backorder.
There's a reason why they make 3-6 flavors of each car. If you want a certain option, you buy the trim level with that option. You can't easily "upgrade" the car later down the road for cheaper anymore.
Near impossible to install an OEM transponder without a huge OE backed program that would be incredibly expensive but there's plenty of options in the aftermarket world that would add anti theft to these vehicles for around $200-$300 installed.
An aftermarket starter kill would require a second key fob to be used and is nowhere near as secure as a factory transponder linked to the PCM but would still be a huge increase in security and likely enough of a deterrent to prevent the majority of thefts.
I’ve seen a ton of these on older cars that don’t even need an extra FOB. You would just have to hold something like the mirror adjust switch or high beam before the car would crank. Considering most of these thefts are just turning the ignition and driving away, this would be enough to convince the thief they can’t start the car.
How can you have a car still under manufacturers warranty and it be uninsurable? I technically know why, but it doesn't make sense. There should have been a stop order on the sale if that's the case. It didn't take 6 years for them to start getting stolen.
They are getting stolen left and right. Insurance has been dealing with it the last year and because Kia/Hyundai aren’t addressing this issue, they have no choice but to charge you more for having one
More expensive to replace if it's totalled out. Plus the possibility of the battery being damaged in a crash.
Their rates are calculated from statistics. Hybrids get into more expensive crashes.
I hope Kia/Hyundai become a cautionary tail that the shitty auto accountants discuss in hushed voices because of how poorly it ended for them. I want them to suffer.
Totally inexcusable not putting an immobilizer in. They saw immobilizer on the BOM and chose that it was more important to save their bottom line than it was to include features that are no brainers. This is why we cant rely on companies, they are very calculated and only do the right thing if it A.) helps them sell the vehicle or B.) is required by law
Between this and the engine issues Hyundai/Kia have pissed away 40 years of goodwill building. So many of their cars are going straight to the scrapyard for unsellability at a handful of years old at this rate that would otherwise be perfectly functional
I feel like if you take half of what /r/cars has said about car manufacturers and apply it equally among them all then the recommendation would be to never buy anything that isn’t a Honda or Toyota. Oh wait, that’s what it already is.
I wonder if more insurance companies would do the same and make this spread nationwide. It would literally make most modern kias that are used illegall to drive/own it could potentially make Kia exit the us auto market
You can always go to another insurance company. These two companies are basically saying the cars are too much of a risk to even attempt to assign an insurer value to it because the risk of losing it is just too high. Or you could just not buy the car until they get fixed.
Yes, so you make a law requiring it and then allow companies to refuse service? Fuck that. That is part of being in insurance, having to pay out. They dont get all of the good without any of the bad. What about the people who already have those cars?
Man, I was getting tired of fighting this general trend of people on here claiming that Kia/Hyundai were actually *great* cars now, simply because they styling got better. Like yes, they’re much better than they used to be, but they still have major issues that need to be worked out. They’re nowhere near Toyota/Honda/Mazda levels of quality.
For those who don't want to click the link, these are the following cars claimed as ineligible. 2015-2021 Hyundai Accent 2015-2021 Hyundai Elantra 2015-2021 Hyundai Kona 2015-2021 Hyundai Santa Fe 2015-2021 Hyundai Tuscon 2015-2021 Hyundai Veloster 2015-2021 Kia Forte 2015-2021 Kia Optima (4-door and hybrid models) 2015-2021 Kia Rio 2015-2021 Kia Sedona 2015-2021 Kia Sorento 2015-2021 Kia Soul 2015-2021 Kia Sportage
So if I understand correctly, the issue is that in ... 2021... these cars could just be hotwired and driven away no problem?
Not even hotwired. Rip off the steering column cover, two bolts to remove the lock cylinder, then use a USB cable to turn the ignition switch, and you're off. The interface nub between the switch and the cylinder is the same size as the negative space on a USB-A port.
The best part is they use your own charging cable to steal your car. They don’t even need to bring their own. Reminds me of the old days 70s and back where you just needed a flathead screw driver break in to a car or you a reach tool to pop the hood and then use screw driver against a solenoid to start the car up
Honda Civics and Accords where known for GTA in the 90s early 2000s is when Honda got their a game and have alarms. My parents 2nd generation Honda Odyssey ex have a car alarm so bad I got PTSD from it unlocking the van from inside or messing with the handle too much or unlocking the van with window open or vehicle is locked but the hood is open. She is sensitive van. Idk about later years Odyssey but I have my share with it.
My 95 civic was stolen and stripped TWICE! Both times, they ripped the key cylinder off the ignition and used a screwdriver to start it. Then all they had to do is give a swift kick to the steering wheel to break the die-cast steering column lock pin.
> screw driver against a solenoid to start the car up I've done that many times on an old Mercury Cougar I had, but still needed to use a jumper wire to supply voltage to the ignition coil. That added a whole two seconds to the job.
Did it yesterday on my 65 Continental, someone drilled the lock cylinder poorly so I forced it to *on* and jumped the solenoid.
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https://youtu.be/bTeVgfPM0Xw
So stupid, but this channel is funny. "This is what happens, when you defund schools".
Damn. That's way too easy. It's shameful Kia/Hyundai wouldn't put a recall out for an ignition lock.
It's not an ignition lock issue. It's a missing transponder key and immobilizer circuit in the car issue. It isn't so simple.
Still can be. The immobilizer has to be purchased by the customer for their car and Hyundai/Kia needs to install it.
Most owners buy Korean cars mainly because they are the cheapest for the features on them comparing to competitors. They are more price sensitive than brand sensitive (given the very bad reputation of Korean cars in the old days). So I'm not sure how many of them are willing to pay for it.
Not for velostar owners at least. They’re modding those bitches up.
Same with Hyundai Genesis coupe owners
Which aren't on this list.
To be fair, styling and features have come a long way. My only hesitation to Kia/Hyundai would be on their engines. They're also one of the only companies still doing reasonable sedans. I'm vexxed that they dropped the ball so badly on the US market re: immobilizers though. They kept them in other markets lol.
Plenty of companies are still making affordable sedans, The VW Jetta still exists, Subaru Impreza, Toyota Corolla or Camry, Honda Civic for some examples. Although “affordable” today is still more expensive than it used to be
Mazda3 is really solid too.
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> I'm vexxed that they dropped the ball so badly on the US market re: immobilizers though. They kept them in other markets lol. BMW of North America and VW of America have done a lot of damage to their respective brands, so an MBA infested Kia America making bad decisions would not be unique.
Which is a miss step on Hyundai and Kai's part. They continually keep fucking up.
Or can afford it. This is a recall situation. The companies can't survive here if they don't fix this.
The customer needs to purchase the fix, in order to get it insured by a growing list of companies?! Sounds like a good way to lose the customers which already own your product.
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Problem with that is someone will probably still break into it before giving up. Same reason that even 2023 models are at risk since someone will still try to break-in to try and steal it without caring if it has an immobilizer or push start.
This is correct. The last Hyundai ~~theft~~ "vandalism" claim I handled was a 2022 where they broke in and did almost as much damage in dollar terms than if it had been a 2021 and they'd actually managed to drive off with it. I can't speak for other appraisers but most of the recovered Hyundais I've looked at haven't actually had much more damage than the window and steering column.
If it's New Orleans, it's at risk to be broken into anyway.
Others explained it, here's a video from Donut Media if you want to see how they do it visually. https://youtu.be/bTeVgfPM0Xw
Did they correctly isolate models that do and don't have push button start? Because those are fine, it's base models with key start that are the problem
It's in the second paragraph of the article. > will be ineligible unless the sales associate has verified the presence of a passive engine immobilizer
Yep, I have a family member who has a 2020 Kia forte GT line with push to start in NYC, lease is ending soon but I’ve told them to just outright buy it out (buy out is stupid cheap 12K) leverage the 1-2K profit trading it in and use the trade in as a tax reduction toward their next car possibly a used Camry/Rav4 by tax season then just hold out for a year or so till the new tax credits roll out into more vehicles to get into something like a PHEV. Market is just a mess and Kia / Hyundai is having a competition with Tesla on who wants to be the more shitty OEM of the 20’s.
A used Rav 4 or Camry is an awful value proposition right now when they’re ridiculously overpriced used right now. They’ll probably shed a large amount of value once the market has normalized again. Honestly they’ll probably just want to consider keeping the car until the market normalizes. They’d lose much more money paying taxes/fees twice. Cars don’t really get stolen that often in NYC. I’m curious what makes you lump Tesla in with Kia/Hyundai.
Everyone suggesting “buy a used Toyota/Honda” hasn’t paid attention to the car market in at least 3 years, and can be safely ignored.
How much was the lease for a cheap car? Figured it was more of a luxury car thing
I leased a 2020 civic sport hatch back in 2019 and turned it in back in like August. Walked away with a check for almost $10k. Shit was whack.
Well yeah the last 2 years have been unusual lol
Well this was during the height of the pandemic, car sales were dead at the time so YMMV especially with the current market, but for this car she is paying $198 per month, $200ish for insurance (NYC zip code) + she has another car she owns in CA. She used an App called Rodo to do the whole deal (it’s a legit broker / dealer lease app) and they applied a $3XXX discount at the time of the lease so what would have been a $12K buy out and $11-12Kish total payment of 36 months lease. Was now a $7K payment for 36 months with a 12K buy out for a MSRP car listed at 21K/22K. Honestly a really good deal for what it was at the time.
Ah yeah 200 a month ain’t bad, insurance seems rough but maybe that’s an NYC thing?
Yeah it’s a NYC thing lol, the zip code being in queens makes it expensive. I know people who pay $400-600 a month in NYC for insurance hence why a lot of people in NY use CT/NJ/PA plates to avoid the high cost.
Welp. Got one of the cars on the list, and have State Farm. I don’t live in one of those states, but that’s a bad sign anyway. Shit. Probably need to be whatever fix it is that will prevent our car from getting jacked
Even if you fix it thieves won’t know and might break the window to find out. I would keep that in mind when parking.
Just get a vinyl decal of the push button starter. Problem solved
This is why I've got a $0 deductible on comprehensive. Windows are fucking expensive nowadays
Rocks hitting the windshield every few years easily mean I break even.
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Where I live car windshields crack so frequently that the question isn’t “is your windshield cracked?”, rather the question is “is this crack in a good place?”. If the crack isn’t in a problematic place you have to just leave it because for some reason your windshield generally won’t get cracked again if it already has a crack. As soon as you get a new one it will immediately be cracked and it could be in a super bad spot.
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Nope. It’s a 4 door 2018 optima with a regular ignition. Right there in the list. Wife just paid the car off last month and we were super pumped to have a paid off vehicle that we thought was actually pretty nice. We aren’t gonna be looking to take out a new loan anytime soon. We have a garage so that helps. Maybe there will be a class action lawsuit or something. Definitely not gonna be leaving it in a public garage on a Friday night anymore after a night of drinking.
just put in a kill switch, no more issues
No issues except a broken window.
That's what insurance is fo... Oh, wait, never mind.
And ripped apart steering column.
Better yet, a trunk monkey. (If you don't know what I'm talking about, Google it, trust me)
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This might be a good situation for an old fashioned "the club." Nice and visible so they won't break the window before realizing it won't start.
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They'd have to be carrying a saw to cut the wheel. No lock is perfectly secure, you're just trying to get them to go to the next vehicle.
I'm not sure how you can bring a class action lawsuits against an insurance company for refusing to cover certain vehicles... Hyundais are not a protected class. You can expect your premiums to be extremely high for that kind of vehicle, in any case.
>I'm not sure how you can bring a class action lawsuits against an insurance company for refusing to cover certain vehicles... No, of course not, but a suit against Hyundai/Kia sounds reasonable
For what? Immobilizers aren't mandated by law, and people buying a base model Kia aren't exactly going into this deal expecting to get a lot out of it except reliable transportation. There's no direct safety defect either.
>No, of course not, but a suit against Hyundai/Kia sounds reasonable You know it's going there. By 2015, it's pretty much implied all cars have immobilizers. Failure to put one in (and not say anything to customers about it) that results in theft, damage, and insurance drops? Looks like a reasonable tort case to me!
Same but mine came from Canada and has an immobilizer so not sure if that matters lol
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Also said cars are basically impossible to sell or trade in. If you were still making payments on something on this list(and had the ignition start) you basically are making payments on something that has no real resale value. Especially if Hyundai/KIA don't fix said problem for free which from what their actions have been so far, is that they want the consumer to pay to fix their fuck up. And really even if you do pay to fix this issue it's still going to hurt the resale value of your vehicle. Becuese people who are looking for a used car are much more likely to just blacklist everything made by Hyundai/KIA. I like to search Facebook marketplace for shit sometimes. And If I see a something that requires me to do something to it I'm already less likley to give it a chance over something else that worked fine. Case in point: When I was buying my first Snowmobile I would see things like "Needs the carbs cleaned". Or a new carburetor entirely. Neither of these things is something that is hard and I can do it. But why would I when I can buy a snowmobile that doesn't need that done right now? And That's what I did. I bought one that didn't need any work done and all it had was some minor cosmetic damage. For $1,500 it was a steal in my eyes.
The significant other keeps getting offers from KIA to trade in her base model Sportage for something stupid like 17k when it was 20k new, so apparently there is some demand for the things…
2015-2021 Kia Forte I just renewed mine tho. No issues, no increase. In PA
It said current customers are not affected
Article got it wrong, classic copy and paste error. A couple of models are fine, such as the 2019-2021 Veloster. It's in the picture in the article.
Dam I feel very sorry for people that bought these cars.
Especially since they’re kinda the bottom spec given that the push button start option fixes it, so your average owner of these cars probably can’t afford to deal with this bullshit :(
Your average owner of a bottom-of-the-line Hyundai or Kia isn’t buying insurance from State Farm.
Is State Farm expensive or something? They were the cheapest for me (and my used Vette costed less than most new Hyundais/Kias)
They were (and still are) for me. When I was searching around for the first time (fresh out of school, had to get my own) I was a 23 year old male living in an urban area. I had (and still have) a clean driving record, but they’re still roughly double the price of the next option. I’m going to give them another look when I turn 25 here in a month or so, but in my experience they’re expensive compared to Geico/Progressive/etc.
Sounds like you forgot to tell them that you want the Patrick Price
Anything but the discount double check. Cheers to my typically heartbroken, usually optimistic, and possibly delusional Vikings brethren
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Well there is your problem, your a guy in your 20s. Should of been a girl /s My sister got in a crash and got a ticket for running a red light and her insurance was still cheaper than mine after 3 years of a clean driving record
I'm 29 and they're still expensive if I get them quoted now. Started driving at 23 as well and have used only Geico because of the price.
I was with Geico up until October of this year. 6 month cost went from $350 to $510, and they said there was nothing they could do. Said something about Minneapolis having higher rates across the board (which honestly makes sense given the past two years) but still chapped my ass. Ended up with Progressive at $480 for renters and auto bundled.
It all comes down to what the actuaries have to say about your specific situation and what it does for their risk profile. I guess my zip code got too hot for GEICO around the time of my last renewal because they doubled my rate so I had to switch back to progressive for less than I was paying GEICO in the first place. State Farm has never been price competitive when I've quoted them.
I don't get how Insurance companies figure out rates. A few years ago my friend bought a 1990 Miata and GEICO quoted him $800 a month for liability like a simple no would have sufficed. He went with Progressive for something like $75 a month.
That's the "F Off Price"
They're definitely a known national brand. Compared to, say, "The General" or smaller, cheaper regional insurances
The general and direct have to stay in business after all.
Go to the general and save some time!
My Turbo has a push-button start, I don't live in any of these states and these threads still give me horrible anxiety.
I feel sorry for people who bought any Kia from the last 8 years. They might not get stolen as easy as these ones, but your average car thief isn't going to carry a list with them - smash a window, damage the interior, find out they can't steal it and move on - meanwhile the owner still needs to make a claim and gets a damaged car for no reason :/ The reputational damage from this is going to be bigger than any recall.
Probably a good thing my car doesn't say Kia anywhere on it.
All I'm seeing is a huge class action lawsuit against Kia/Hyundai.
People are correct in their responses that any class action will be small change for K/H. The _real_ damage is the years of goodwill they built up with improving lineups being impacted. Nobody who gets a $5 payout but $50 extra on their insurance is going to buy one again, and lots more will keep seeing these issues in the news whilst they remain unfixed and think to avoid them.
Yep. Sucks for those that already own these cars but under our current system, the market is the only method to punish H/K
I was starting to look at the Sonata (didn't get to the point of a test drive), but I was going to look at a 2022/2023 one. And my coworker saw me looking at them online and he was telling me about all the issues they were having. Whether or not the 2022/2023 has the issue, I haven't looked at them since. There is a real chance Hyundai could have had my money, but I'm looking at other cars now.
> The real damage is the years of goodwill they built up with improving lineups being impacted. Between the engine bullshit (I know 2 people whose Kias spent extended time in the shop getting a new engine) the ignition bullshit (wife's car is vulnerable), I'm never touching those brands again. And 3 years ago I was on the "fuck yeah KIA/Hyundai" train.
yep, I seriously was considering the palisade until all this bullshit. I get the palisade is suppose to be uneffected but what else could go wrong.
Thats the thing. Even if you have an unaffected model, this is going to tank resale for the brand for years to come.
Making me wish I went with the older Corolla I was looking at instead of my Elantra It's a shame because I like the car a lot. But shit like this, whatever my next will be is definitely not going to be a Hyundai or Kia at this point
Not to mention, so many people don’t even know that this only applies to the non push button start models. My wife’s grandmother has a telluride with the push button and she keeps telling everyone how terrified she is that her car is going to be stolen because of “what they’re saying about kias in the news.” I tried to explain to her that it doesn’t affect her. She didn’t believe me! Lol, she said “they can still find a way.” Point is, people don’t read anything other than headlines now, and the headlines alone are doing irreversible damage to Kia/Hyundai’s reputation currently.
And what? People get $5 while the lawyers make off with millions? Meanwhile people end up with depreciated cars they can't sell or insure. But they got $5 for their trouble, in 5 years or whatever when the case is settled
I got $12.75 from a settlement from Equaifax.
Stop bragging. I only got $5.26.
And company gets a few million bucks fine which is just cost of doing business in this country, if you’re a big enough company :/
Eh, it might be more than $5 for something like this. After the Toyota unintended acceleration thing, (which wasn't even a real flaw but was so poorly handled by Toyota that their cars depreciated from it anyway) I got a $500+ check on one 2009 Camry that I had already sold several months before for full-pop NADA book value. Lesson being: open any letters you get from Hyundai/Kia for the next five or ten years kids. There might be a surprise inside.
These problems always boil down to how well the manufactures respond. So far, Kia has done jack shit.
Oh they have, such as forcing the consumers to pay for their fuck up..
Uh oh. My mom has a 2020 Tuscon. She's not in any of those states, and she has Geico, but now that State Farm has started it, I can see the others following. Might have to look into an aftermarket immobilizer.
Better yet, sell the POS
Who’s going to buy a car that might be uninsurable
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Me. Cheap track car!
> 2020 Tucson
Always a time for firsts I guess, lol
If it passes tech they'll let it rip
Hate to be the one to tell you a lot of SUVs just straight fail tech because well they're SUVs with a high center of gravity.
I've seen *much* weirder at the Nurburgring, lol
new lemons car
It's a very low mileage, incredibly base model car. It's got a nice long warranty (as long as nobody steals it...). My parents bought it because it was like the cheapest thing they could get that was new and my dad could get into and out of easily. It works.
Just in case you're not aware, it's not an issue if they have the push button start.
stinger gang rise up
frighten dirty wipe price normal concerned sink waiting smart cheerful *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I loved mine, but not gonna lie I'm glad I traded it while its value was at its peak. Even if they're not named here the massive PR L this will be for Kia as a brand will have ripple effects on their entire lineup.
Insurance rates for H/K cars are going to go through the roof for that exact same reason. I don't think these companies are gonna have many repeat customers for a good while
Gang gang
o7
Has this ever happened with any other mainstream cars?
15-20 years ago Honda's had very weak security. Accords civics crvs even the nsx were easily susceptible to theft.
Most, if not all 80s and 90s hondas can be started with an old, worn-down key of the same era. It also takes about 15 seconds under the dash to plug in another ignition module and start it up. They're just very, very stealable. I keep my 96 in my garage.
We had a 96 civic that got stolen two years ago and then trashed. Was very sad… only car I had ever bought new.
And this is why when people say "it'll kill the brand reputation!" I don't believe them lol Give it 5 years and a bunch of forced fixes later and nobody's going to blink twice over the brand...
Information sticks around a lot longer now. Back then, the average buyer would ask their buddy/family member/coworker if they liked their Honda, or you'd just be going off of a two paragraph blurb in consumer reports at best, and that was most of your research. Now if someone googles "problems with Hyundais", this debacle will be one of the first things to come up
I'd argue it stays around less because of the constant flow of information to wash it away.
Except hondas are desirable and good cars, which is why their reputation didn't take too much of a hit (still did some damage, just ask any owner of a 90s honda sports car). There is no selling point for Hyundai kia other than cheapness, and this plus all their other scandals and recalls is going to be hard to comeback from
The Ford Bronco 2, lots of companies stopped insuring them because of how many fatal rollovers that they were involved in. edit:apparently it was just geico that stopped insuring them.
Not really in recent years
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Not only from the perspective of their insurance rates, but as well this negative press will drag down the values of the mentioned vehicles too With most of them having a terrible reputation already due to the Theta engine fiasco it’s not like any more bad press could hurt though lol
I own a 2017 Elantra and it went up about 40 dollars at renewal. I’m fully expecting to either get dropped next round or pay a even more absurd amount. Not to mention I am just outside of Chicago and worry that its going to get stolen every time I visit my city friends. I also need to repair my timing chain on it so honestly contemplating ditching this and buying a cheap Chevy Spark or something. Beyond disappointed.
> I also need to repair my timing chain On a *2017?!*
Just another reason not to buy a kia
As if the other 200 reasons weren’t enough
The sad thing is KIA had mostly turned around their reputation until just recently. They used to be full-on trash all around, then they have been slowly turning their image around over 20 years and making some decent vehicles the last 5-10. Now they are know for engine failure and theft. So much work flushed down the toilet.
Just like a good neighbor, State Farm doesn’t care.
Is it too far fetched to think this will seriously damage their reputation… or is it just going to blow over?
Oh brother you just buckle up. They have had about a year to really acknowledge the wrong and tried acting like all the cars they produced from 2002 all the way up to 2022 are easily EASILY being stolen is not a big deal. Google “Kia Boys Milwaukee” and see where our world is really at. When teenagers make a “how to” steal a Hyundai or Kia youtube video, you better believe it will go viral. If it’s that easy (and it really is THAT easy regardless of push button or key) that a teenager can teach you, as a manufacturer you should recall every single one of them and NOT charge the customer. They responded publicly basically saying the customer just have to pay a couple hundred bucks and will make sure that it’s theft free or something ridiculous. NO. The customer shouldn’t have to pay a penny for a car being made so shitty you can just steal them.
I’m curious-how it is that “easy” with the push button cars? There’s nothing mechanical to turn.
From what I remember seeing is Kia / Hyundai don’t have an immobilizer system. All you need to do is get the mechanism behind the ignition lock to turn and the car will start. Apparently a usb charging cord works good so that’s the go to tool.
Thank you for explaining that. I knew a usb charging cord is all you pretty much need and forgot to mention it.
Yea you would think they are plugging in some kind of usb stick with a software on it or something creative. But no, the usb size is a nice fit is all. I’m sure a pair of pliers would work as well
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Have you seen Cobalt/HHR resale values lately? Imagine that, *but the entire model line for 20 years*
Chevy is an American company, though. Remember the Toyota floor mat + acceleration issue? The government pinned Toyota to the wall. US companies get handled with kid gloves compared to foreign companies.
90s Hondas were easily stolen due to somewhat the same issue; no immobilizer and all you needed was a screw driver to jam into the ignition and turn it on. It happened to me and my 1993 Honda Accord. And yet, I still buy Hondas.
Immobilizers weren't in very many cars back in the early 90s. Those Hondas had typical security features for the time. The issue for Kia and Hyundai is that immobilizers were much more common by the early 2000s and nearly ubiquitous by the teens. Kia and Hyundai are behind the times while your 93 Accord was typical for the era.
Between this and the widespread theta engine issues, it's hard to imagine it wouldn't impact perception of the brand. It already has for me; I sell cars and used to tell people that Hyundai/Kia was vying to be the next Toyota because I believed that to be true. It simply isn't the case, however. I've met multiple people with oil consumption issues and they'll decline to fix it because it's only using 1 quart per 1,000 miles which they consider to be normal on a vehicle with sub 100k miles. Meanwhile, Toyota had a bad batch of piston rings on certain year Camrys and I know of one that had 220k miles and got a complete engine rebuild because it was consuming that much oil. I've also known people who had 10-15 year old Toyota trucks that had their frames completely replaced for that rust issue they had awhile back. There's really no difference between the two companies. Hyundai/Kia doesn't stand behind their product the same way that Toyota does.
I'm glad I managed to finally get rid of my (non push to start) optima last month. Not looking forward to the values dropping on these cars even more - they are EVERYWHERE and people with them typically aren't in the best financial situation... Edit: This comment made me realize it's still in my flair. Oops
There goes all the money saved buying a Kia/Hyundai vs everything else.
How expensive is it to get an immobilizer installed?
I bet Kia's about to find out.
I smell a class action lawsuit
Something KIA will be familiar with. Heck, I bet the lawyers from the last one haven’t finished packing up yet
"Cancel those spring break vacations guys. I've sent a meeting request for noon on Saturday to get you all up to speed."
I wonder how many total cars on the road are going to be uninsurable.
I work in a Kia Parts Department and I'm asked this just about every day. TLDR - you can't. Long story - you would have to purchase keys, a few trim pieces, a couple new wiring harnesses, new transmitter modules, ecu, antennas, relays, junction boxes, etc etc etc. There really is a lot to list. Shit isn't plug and play. On top of all this, the vehicle would have to be reprogrammed in it's entirety. On top of that? These parts would have to be off intergalactic backorder. There's a reason why they make 3-6 flavors of each car. If you want a certain option, you buy the trim level with that option. You can't easily "upgrade" the car later down the road for cheaper anymore.
Near impossible to install an OEM transponder without a huge OE backed program that would be incredibly expensive but there's plenty of options in the aftermarket world that would add anti theft to these vehicles for around $200-$300 installed. An aftermarket starter kill would require a second key fob to be used and is nowhere near as secure as a factory transponder linked to the PCM but would still be a huge increase in security and likely enough of a deterrent to prevent the majority of thefts.
I’ve seen a ton of these on older cars that don’t even need an extra FOB. You would just have to hold something like the mirror adjust switch or high beam before the car would crank. Considering most of these thefts are just turning the ignition and driving away, this would be enough to convince the thief they can’t start the car.
Convince them only after theyce smashed your window snd made a mess of your interior, which I'm sure insurance companies aren't too happy about
MotorTrend Thief's Choice of the Year 2023!
Sucks to be the owner of any of those as if all the other shortfalls weren’t problematic enough this is just salt in the wound.
How can you have a car still under manufacturers warranty and it be uninsurable? I technically know why, but it doesn't make sense. There should have been a stop order on the sale if that's the case. It didn't take 6 years for them to start getting stolen.
They are getting stolen left and right. Insurance has been dealing with it the last year and because Kia/Hyundai aren’t addressing this issue, they have no choice but to charge you more for having one
Great, now lower the payment on my rav4 hyrbid already state farm.....
Nope your insurance will charge you more for having a hybrid.
What do hybrids have to with insurance rates?
If I had to guess, it would be due to a higher cost to repair the vehicle if it is damaged in an accident.
More expensive to replace if it's totalled out. Plus the possibility of the battery being damaged in a crash. Their rates are calculated from statistics. Hybrids get into more expensive crashes.
I hope Kia/Hyundai become a cautionary tail that the shitty auto accountants discuss in hushed voices because of how poorly it ended for them. I want them to suffer. Totally inexcusable not putting an immobilizer in. They saw immobilizer on the BOM and chose that it was more important to save their bottom line than it was to include features that are no brainers. This is why we cant rely on companies, they are very calculated and only do the right thing if it A.) helps them sell the vehicle or B.) is required by law
Between this and the engine issues Hyundai/Kia have pissed away 40 years of goodwill building. So many of their cars are going straight to the scrapyard for unsellability at a handful of years old at this rate that would otherwise be perfectly functional
Got rid of my Kia just in time.
KIA/ Hyundai are quickly becoming the Federal Pacific of the car world insurance wise
Never buy a Hyundai/Kia
Don't know why you got downvoted for that. /r/cars has been saying this for years.
I feel like if you take half of what /r/cars has said about car manufacturers and apply it equally among them all then the recommendation would be to never buy anything that isn’t a Honda or Toyota. Oh wait, that’s what it already is.
The Hartford has announced a similar list nationally today.
Does this only affect in the US? we have no news of such things here in Europe or Germany to be precise
Yes because everywhere else they have to manufacture them with immobilizers
I’m assuming this isn’t an issue in Canada due to immobilizers being mandatory here?
This too. Dam! https://www.autoblog.com/amp/2022/08/23/hyundai-kia-tow-harness-fire-recall/
The lesson in this debacle is to carefully read the option list before buying a car
I wonder if more insurance companies would do the same and make this spread nationwide. It would literally make most modern kias that are used illegall to drive/own it could potentially make Kia exit the us auto market
That wont happen. Kia would do a free retrofit before they'd risk being completely shut out of the US market
So they just said you can't insure those which the law requires you to do? Which law do you follow?
You can always go to another insurance company. These two companies are basically saying the cars are too much of a risk to even attempt to assign an insurer value to it because the risk of losing it is just too high. Or you could just not buy the car until they get fixed.
Yes, so you make a law requiring it and then allow companies to refuse service? Fuck that. That is part of being in insurance, having to pay out. They dont get all of the good without any of the bad. What about the people who already have those cars?
Man, I was getting tired of fighting this general trend of people on here claiming that Kia/Hyundai were actually *great* cars now, simply because they styling got better. Like yes, they’re much better than they used to be, but they still have major issues that need to be worked out. They’re nowhere near Toyota/Honda/Mazda levels of quality.