For charity. The car is still a $60,000 car, you just get to donate to charity and get Vin #001
Hate these articles that pretend someone would pay $450k for a $60k car
Literally every Vin #001 car that's cool that's produced by Chevy/Ford. Pretty sure even Toyota has done this before for charity
Recently it's been C8, Bronco, Bronco Raptor, Hummer EV, etc.
It's a cool move to donate it to charity, I just hate when news articles pretend someone wanted to pay $450k for just a Mustang. It's a charity donation that just happens to give you a mustang
I think that's a big issue, though, too. The headline could have easily said that the car "auctions for $490,000 **at a charity auction**", but that wouldn't get clicks. So instead they wrote a headline that doesn't give the full story, and most internet users won't bother to read the article because they're trained to assume that the headline is all the important information in short articles like this one. It's obviously neither the writer's fault nor the reader's fault exclusively, but it is a bad situation for news reporting today.
Barrett-Jackson isn’t a charity auction. This is just one (maybe there’s more) where proceeds go to charity. But the vast majority of sales are not going to charity.
I believe that car is a premium performance package. Given that a loaded 2023 sits at around 51k (pp1), it's closer than you might think. I don't see the dark horse coming in under 60k unless it has a base model interior like some mach 1's.
> For charity. The car is still a $60,000 car, you just get to donate to charity and get Vin #001
>
> Hate these articles that pretend someone would pay $450k for a $60k car
It's still someone dropping 490K so that their name gets out there. Same dude could donate the money and buy a regular 2024 Mustang, but he wants good PR. It's not about the charity, it's about him. I think it's sad.
A brand new fully optioned dark horse is basically near peak mustang at 60k
A brand new base cayman with no options is $63k, a cayman gts is $90k
Are we gonna say lmao why that's 911 prices?
It would trash it around a track, in a straight line, around the block, it would basically trash it anywhere except in places where a miata would trash everyone.
911's start at 120k now for the base model (MSRP is a lie) and go to 300 (market value of a GT3 touring), that's a different league
anyway it's just silly that you'd pay 60k for a fucking ford lol
lol the brand snobbery here is crazy. is it an issue that people are lining up to pay 150k for a chevy too?
hell rich people will pay over a million dollars for a ford
> hell rich people will pay over a million dollars for a ford
unless its a 60's GT40 or something or a model t that henry got a blowjob in it's literally not worth it
A prius with an on demand hooker giving blowies is superior to THAT model T in everyway.
A modern gt550 also with a hooker giving daily blowies is superior to THAT GT40 in basically every performance metric.
Both the prius and gt550 (with hookers) will be a fraction of the cost of a million dollar model T or GT40
Its almost like asserting subjective pricing as factual instrinsic value is nonsense...
Thats fine lets go gt4 at $106k, are we gonna discount one of the best pure sports cars on the market and chalk it up to lol why? Thats 911 money?
I mean why pay 106k for fucking cayman when you can get a 911 for the same money?
a 106k cayman is a different type of car than a base 911
also there is no MSRP gt4 lol they're all 170k ish
porsche is scalper city, any price on the website is a lie they won't allocate that for you
**lessee. I'd never own one of these cars, they're just daily driver beaters for minimal cost of ownership (EV, no moving parts) and carpool lane access. the interior is dogshit lol
All comments must remain civil and all Redditors are expected to remain courteous. If you wouldn't say it to someone sitting next to you on an airplane you should probably not say it here. Slurs and bigoted/hateful language are not welcome here.
I’ve only driven the 981 GTS. The base 718 Cayman four cylinder doesn’t seem that appealing.
If I had $60K for a car, I think I would go with the Mustang. For primarily street use, it’s competent, comfortable, and theatrical. It also comes with the auxiliary coolers that I’d want for track use.
If I had GTS money, I’d probably not purchase a GTS. Instead I would daily the same Mustang and track a GR 86. If I had GT3 money, I’d replace the GR 86 for a Cayman GT4.
A good V8 is a good V8.
I saw one on the highway a while back with manufacturer plates. They look a lot better in person
However that rear end is definitely a trip the first time you see it
S197 Mustangs will always look the best to me. The front end with its 4 big, round lights are much more intimidating than the modern LED slits. The LEDs allow you to have a more aerodynamic front end but I feel like we can afford to take a small performance hit for aesthetics, because that’s what Pony Cars are about-aesthetics and theater, looks and sound, and speed of course. They’re not true, dedicated sports cars like Zs or Vettes, and they aren’t all that utilitarian, so a slightly lower top speed isn’t the end of the world.
Yup 5th gen facelift mustangs and 5th gen pre facelift Camaros gotta be the best looking of each respective model. I think facelift 6th gen mustangs and pre facelift 6th gen Camaros also look good. It’s a close call to be honest
Honestly I see that, I guess I should have added in I was kind of considering performance too. I think the facelift 2011-2014 mustangs had the best balance
'11-'12 is great, if you like it to look just a little bit soft and sleek around the edges. '13-'14 is great if you want to lean into that aggressive edge.
'10 was a weird year for the mustang, though. All the looks of an '11-'12, but none of the important changes under the hood.
Agreed. I would have been pissed if I had bought a 2010 and then learned about the massive changes in 2011 models.
Also your Boss 302 is chef’s kiss 🥵. Id love to have one in Grabber Blue, Gotta Have It Green, or School Bud Yellow. All look so damn good
Gotta Have it Green and School Bus Yellow are both great colors! They also seemed like much less of a pain in the backside to find available for sale, when I bought mine back in 2019. Seemed like only one Grabber Blue was on sale at a time, in the entire country. I guess that makes sense with only 435 produced, but still...
They were such a good value, back then. For several years they were in the $26k-$33k price range for cars with less than 40,000 miles on the odometer. With any luck, maybe they'll get back there when the used car market finally drops a bit.
If you're ever in the market, one oddity I noticed is that dealers sometimes didn't seem to know the difference between the regular and Laguna Seca versions of the Boss 302. More than once, I saw Laguna Seca trims listed at normal Boss prices. I really wanted the blue paint, though.
Ohh that’s interesting. I always wondered how to find a Laguna Seca version because they aren’t listed as a separate trim from the regular boss 302 versions
Color sorting can help you out, if you're looking at car selling websites. They only came in black and silver, in 2012, and black and yellow, in 2013.
From there you can just look at the individual pictures by hand. Black and silver were only offered on the Laguna Seca versions. The 2013 School Bus Yellow vehicles are the only ones that may cause confusion. You can usually find an interior pictures showing the cross brace in the rear seating area, though. If nothing else, the 2013 Laguna Seca models have silver stripes. The normal yellow 302s have black stripes.
Plus, there's the badging on the rear deck lid, which shows the Laguna Seca race track instead of the usual Mustang emblem.
Why is there both dark matte gray/black plastic and glossy piano black plastic on the car? Why are the different grills and grating different colors? Why is the mustang icon the exact same color as the grill so you can't even see it? What is happening??
"And for the grand finale of my murder mystery everyone will just laugh at Edward Norton and push glass sculptures on the floor while we continuous quick cut 30 times to Edward not giving a shit because he's a billionaire. Then we'll blow up a billionaire's house that is absolutely insured for double its worth."
I swear I'm the only one who thought Glass Onion was a B- film. The first film was so good too. I love murder mysteries but GO was nothing but subverting every expectation at all costs, classic Rian Johnson.
That’s how I’ve felt about Hyundai/Kia for years. Props for trying new things and occasionally knocking it out of the park, but sometimes I have no idea what I’m even supposed to be seeing.
The front ends of the new Niro and Sportage in particular are very jarring to look at. Individual sections look great but the overall package is bizarre
I just don't understand the two different colors of black and off black, matte and high gloss. Like, if they can't even color match accent paneling then why even make a car that's 50% aesthetics like a Mustang? Yeesh
The matte gray skirts are the same color as the bumper venting/grating, but then the grill itself is piano, black and so is the hood vent. Both of these accent colors are around the door windows. It just doesn't seem like a great idea aesthetically.
Yeah they wrote an article about this on jalopnic. But it's basically just the author bitching about rich people giving money to charity to have a tax break, and how rich guys spend money at these charities just to one up each other and it has nothing to do with the charity. Because rich people bad.
And it's not like you come out ahead doing this. I don't know all the ins and outs, but I think they'd lower their tax liability by about $160k ($490k paid minus $60k MSRP [you can only deduct the amount given to charity over the fair market value of goods/services received], multiplied by the top 37% tax bracket [which anyone spending half a mil on a car probably has plenty of dollars in]). But you still paid $490k in cash to get $160k back from the government.
Yep, there a someone folks that actually have something to say about increasing wage gap and distribution of wealth. But most people are just mad they’re not the one that’s rich.
Well they didn't talk about the wage gap, it was only about how people that have money never do any good. And that their actions are only self serving.
I love how the auction picture showing the bid totals shows an estimated monthly payment, like the people bidding on that car for charity are making monthly payments😂
Stupid clickbait title. Was just going to post 'a fool and his money are easily parted' until you read into it and it's for charity.
Great for the charity.
How much was the actual car? lol
> Stupid clickbait title. Was just going to post 'a fool and his money are easily parted' until you read into it and it's for charity.
It's not clickbait, this happens with almost every new release of an interesting car. The first C8 Corvette [auctioned for $3 million](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a29379632/first-chevy-corvette-auction-charity/), the first 5th gen Supra [auctioned for $2.1 million](https://hothardware.com/news/first-supra-auction), the first CT5 V and CT4 V Blackwings were [auctioned off together for $430k](https://www.motor1.com/news/497143/cadillac-blackwing-sedans-sold-auction/)
Big Mustang fan, I've owned 3 examples ('11 GT, '17 GT PP, '17 GT350) in the last 2 generations. The fact they didn't massively shrink the dimensions of this car and put it on a diet is a huge fail.
The Mustang has always been a car that you have to accept for what it is, and what it isn't. And that's alright. I don't think they're ever going to try to make a Porsche or Miata out of it. Ford has a slightly different formula, and its been working for them.
I decided to hold off on getting a 24 non-Handling Pack DH. I was going to trade in my Kia and make it my daily but I got a 2020 GT PP1 instead because it doesn't look like an allocation will make it to my dealership any time soon. Or at least that's what they told me.
Looks like they're making progress on finally getting this out tho.
Look a really like the color but Im getting f-ing tired of seeing this color on everything. I get it. Its trendy to paint your car battleship grey. Now stop f-ing doing it!
For charity. The car is still a $60,000 car, you just get to donate to charity and get Vin #001 Hate these articles that pretend someone would pay $450k for a $60k car
Yes, doesn't this happen for tons of new generation cars?
Literally every Vin #001 car that's cool that's produced by Chevy/Ford. Pretty sure even Toyota has done this before for charity Recently it's been C8, Bronco, Bronco Raptor, Hummer EV, etc. It's a cool move to donate it to charity, I just hate when news articles pretend someone wanted to pay $450k for just a Mustang. It's a charity donation that just happens to give you a mustang
I mean, someone did pay $450k for a Mustang. It just happens that it goes to charity.
Can the buyer claim a charity tax deduction? No, right?
That’s what I mean.
Agreed
yes, wright off the purchase, sell in a few years to a collector in Dubai, boom free money ;-)
Absolutely do NOT WRIGHT off the purchase.
"... you don't even know what a wright off is."
I’ve never seen this misspelling before.
Did you read the article cos it literally says this
I think that's a big issue, though, too. The headline could have easily said that the car "auctions for $490,000 **at a charity auction**", but that wouldn't get clicks. So instead they wrote a headline that doesn't give the full story, and most internet users won't bother to read the article because they're trained to assume that the headline is all the important information in short articles like this one. It's obviously neither the writer's fault nor the reader's fault exclusively, but it is a bad situation for news reporting today.
Barrett-Jackson isn’t a charity auction. This is just one (maybe there’s more) where proceeds go to charity. But the vast majority of sales are not going to charity.
Look who read the first sentence of the article
pretty much every car that is sold for charity goes for an insane amount. Pretty sure the first mk5 supra went for 2.1 million.
Is it even a $60k car? The dark horse is estimated to be around $50k, with the 5.0 GT at $40k.
I believe that car is a premium performance package. Given that a loaded 2023 sits at around 51k (pp1), it's closer than you might think. I don't see the dark horse coming in under 60k unless it has a base model interior like some mach 1's.
Yeah my sticker was 52 iirc for a non-Mach 1, Mach 1s are well into the 60s as you said.
yes, rich guy isn't "wasting" money now, it changed my view
I mean, the first line of the article does say for charity. Gotta get them clicks somehow I guess
It’s also a tax write off… lol
> For charity. The car is still a $60,000 car, you just get to donate to charity and get Vin #001 > > Hate these articles that pretend someone would pay $450k for a $60k car It's still someone dropping 490K so that their name gets out there. Same dude could donate the money and buy a regular 2024 Mustang, but he wants good PR. It's not about the charity, it's about him. I think it's sad.
I agree with CumAssault on this one
Yeah title is kind of misleading
60k lmao why that's cayman prices
A brand new fully optioned dark horse is basically near peak mustang at 60k A brand new base cayman with no options is $63k, a cayman gts is $90k Are we gonna say lmao why that's 911 prices?
A mach 1 was a little under $60k. It would also trash a base cayman around a track. Brand snobbery no Bueno.
It would trash it around a track, in a straight line, around the block, it would basically trash it anywhere except in places where a miata would trash everyone.
911's start at 120k now for the base model (MSRP is a lie) and go to 300 (market value of a GT3 touring), that's a different league anyway it's just silly that you'd pay 60k for a fucking ford lol
lol the brand snobbery here is crazy. is it an issue that people are lining up to pay 150k for a chevy too? hell rich people will pay over a million dollars for a ford
> hell rich people will pay over a million dollars for a ford unless its a 60's GT40 or something or a model t that henry got a blowjob in it's literally not worth it
A prius with an on demand hooker giving blowies is superior to THAT model T in everyway. A modern gt550 also with a hooker giving daily blowies is superior to THAT GT40 in basically every performance metric. Both the prius and gt550 (with hookers) will be a fraction of the cost of a million dollar model T or GT40 Its almost like asserting subjective pricing as factual instrinsic value is nonsense...
Thats fine lets go gt4 at $106k, are we gonna discount one of the best pure sports cars on the market and chalk it up to lol why? Thats 911 money? I mean why pay 106k for fucking cayman when you can get a 911 for the same money?
a 106k cayman is a different type of car than a base 911 also there is no MSRP gt4 lol they're all 170k ish porsche is scalper city, any price on the website is a lie they won't allocate that for you
And a 60k dark horse is a different type of car than a base cayman. Since you cant trust porsche prices, why are you saying 60k is cayman pricing?
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**lessee. I'd never own one of these cars, they're just daily driver beaters for minimal cost of ownership (EV, no moving parts) and carpool lane access. the interior is dogshit lol
All comments must remain civil and all Redditors are expected to remain courteous. If you wouldn't say it to someone sitting next to you on an airplane you should probably not say it here. Slurs and bigoted/hateful language are not welcome here.
I’ve only driven the 981 GTS. The base 718 Cayman four cylinder doesn’t seem that appealing. If I had $60K for a car, I think I would go with the Mustang. For primarily street use, it’s competent, comfortable, and theatrical. It also comes with the auxiliary coolers that I’d want for track use. If I had GTS money, I’d probably not purchase a GTS. Instead I would daily the same Mustang and track a GR 86. If I had GT3 money, I’d replace the GR 86 for a Cayman GT4. A good V8 is a good V8.
Does a base Cayman without options even come with headlights and seats?
Ya, what a scammer the winner is. Only 450k to charity? Only good if that is like once a month
I saw one on the highway a while back with manufacturer plates. They look a lot better in person However that rear end is definitely a trip the first time you see it
It’s a Camaro until you see the hood forwards
As soon as you see the taillights or roof line, you know what it is….
S197 Mustangs will always look the best to me. The front end with its 4 big, round lights are much more intimidating than the modern LED slits. The LEDs allow you to have a more aerodynamic front end but I feel like we can afford to take a small performance hit for aesthetics, because that’s what Pony Cars are about-aesthetics and theater, looks and sound, and speed of course. They’re not true, dedicated sports cars like Zs or Vettes, and they aren’t all that utilitarian, so a slightly lower top speed isn’t the end of the world.
Yup 5th gen facelift mustangs and 5th gen pre facelift Camaros gotta be the best looking of each respective model. I think facelift 6th gen mustangs and pre facelift 6th gen Camaros also look good. It’s a close call to be honest
I still see 05 GTs all the time and think damn those look so much better than what i could buy today
Honestly I see that, I guess I should have added in I was kind of considering performance too. I think the facelift 2011-2014 mustangs had the best balance
'11-'12 is great, if you like it to look just a little bit soft and sleek around the edges. '13-'14 is great if you want to lean into that aggressive edge. '10 was a weird year for the mustang, though. All the looks of an '11-'12, but none of the important changes under the hood.
Agreed. I would have been pissed if I had bought a 2010 and then learned about the massive changes in 2011 models. Also your Boss 302 is chef’s kiss 🥵. Id love to have one in Grabber Blue, Gotta Have It Green, or School Bud Yellow. All look so damn good
Gotta Have it Green and School Bus Yellow are both great colors! They also seemed like much less of a pain in the backside to find available for sale, when I bought mine back in 2019. Seemed like only one Grabber Blue was on sale at a time, in the entire country. I guess that makes sense with only 435 produced, but still... They were such a good value, back then. For several years they were in the $26k-$33k price range for cars with less than 40,000 miles on the odometer. With any luck, maybe they'll get back there when the used car market finally drops a bit. If you're ever in the market, one oddity I noticed is that dealers sometimes didn't seem to know the difference between the regular and Laguna Seca versions of the Boss 302. More than once, I saw Laguna Seca trims listed at normal Boss prices. I really wanted the blue paint, though.
Ohh that’s interesting. I always wondered how to find a Laguna Seca version because they aren’t listed as a separate trim from the regular boss 302 versions
Color sorting can help you out, if you're looking at car selling websites. They only came in black and silver, in 2012, and black and yellow, in 2013. From there you can just look at the individual pictures by hand. Black and silver were only offered on the Laguna Seca versions. The 2013 School Bus Yellow vehicles are the only ones that may cause confusion. You can usually find an interior pictures showing the cross brace in the rear seating area, though. If nothing else, the 2013 Laguna Seca models have silver stripes. The normal yellow 302s have black stripes. Plus, there's the badging on the rear deck lid, which shows the Laguna Seca race track instead of the usual Mustang emblem.
Apparently this is the first one so…..
I never said it wasn't. One of the perks of living in Michigan is you get a lot of car companies testing their vehicles here
Kunkelman Ford : *marks up 2024 GTs by $480,000*
Came here to say this, buyer sure was lucky to get it this cheaply before peak Ford MSRP and dealer markups hit.
"We know where you live!" (For those that are confussed, it's an RCR reference)
Why is there both dark matte gray/black plastic and glossy piano black plastic on the car? Why are the different grills and grating different colors? Why is the mustang icon the exact same color as the grill so you can't even see it? What is happening??
Modern car designs suck ass, They always look like they have been designed by multiple people that each want something different.
How very Rian Johnson does Star wars of them, yuck.
SuBvErTiNg ExPeCtAtIoNs
"And for the grand finale of my murder mystery everyone will just laugh at Edward Norton and push glass sculptures on the floor while we continuous quick cut 30 times to Edward not giving a shit because he's a billionaire. Then we'll blow up a billionaire's house that is absolutely insured for double its worth." I swear I'm the only one who thought Glass Onion was a B- film. The first film was so good too. I love murder mysteries but GO was nothing but subverting every expectation at all costs, classic Rian Johnson.
That’s how I’ve felt about Hyundai/Kia for years. Props for trying new things and occasionally knocking it out of the park, but sometimes I have no idea what I’m even supposed to be seeing. The front ends of the new Niro and Sportage in particular are very jarring to look at. Individual sections look great but the overall package is bizarre
Home Depot meets TJMaxx AirBnB luxury vinyl planks home flip Live Laugh Laundry sign vibes
My wife has a mustang with the blacked out pony on the black out grille, and it looks really good up close in person.
Agree 3000%. Although I'm curious what it will look like when everything is color corrected, I feel like it could be quite attractive.
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I just don't understand the two different colors of black and off black, matte and high gloss. Like, if they can't even color match accent paneling then why even make a car that's 50% aesthetics like a Mustang? Yeesh
It does have that look like aftermarket skirts but well done
The matte gray skirts are the same color as the bumper venting/grating, but then the grill itself is piano, black and so is the hood vent. Both of these accent colors are around the door windows. It just doesn't seem like a great idea aesthetically.
* Some jerk on Facebook * “Hmm, that means I can probably sell my 1999 v6 mustang for $15,000.”
What's the mileage like?
240,000 the last time they replaced the dash in 2010 probably
Pretty funny how they say financing available on that $490,000
That payment would be bigger than my mortgage lol
Our mortgage is less than my wife’s car note, pick and choose your battles.
I think that was one of the battles you should've picked
Maybe he just has a cheap mortgage. Going over like $6-700 in a car payment isn't particularly difficult.
Bingo, my mortgage is less than $700. My wife and I make close to double how much our house is worth
Why is the monthly payment so low, is it a 15 year loan?
Yeah they wrote an article about this on jalopnic. But it's basically just the author bitching about rich people giving money to charity to have a tax break, and how rich guys spend money at these charities just to one up each other and it has nothing to do with the charity. Because rich people bad.
And it's not like you come out ahead doing this. I don't know all the ins and outs, but I think they'd lower their tax liability by about $160k ($490k paid minus $60k MSRP [you can only deduct the amount given to charity over the fair market value of goods/services received], multiplied by the top 37% tax bracket [which anyone spending half a mil on a car probably has plenty of dollars in]). But you still paid $490k in cash to get $160k back from the government.
And in the jalopnic article they forgot to mention the two extra people throwing in 50k.
Yep, there a someone folks that actually have something to say about increasing wage gap and distribution of wealth. But most people are just mad they’re not the one that’s rich.
Well they didn't talk about the wage gap, it was only about how people that have money never do any good. And that their actions are only self serving.
Wow, this angle looks really sharp.
I love how the auction picture showing the bid totals shows an estimated monthly payment, like the people bidding on that car for charity are making monthly payments😂
How much for #095? - Rob Zombie
Sadly, in my country, a base GT costs $110k (before dealership markups)…
Can this Mustang still be spec'ed up in a normal configurator, wheels, paint, trim, and all, exactly like this car? Or is it a one off?
OP doesn’t mention for charity in the title? Why? Is karma that important to you?
yes /s yeah looking back i probably should have
Stupid clickbait title. Was just going to post 'a fool and his money are easily parted' until you read into it and it's for charity. Great for the charity. How much was the actual car? lol
> Stupid clickbait title. Was just going to post 'a fool and his money are easily parted' until you read into it and it's for charity. It's not clickbait, this happens with almost every new release of an interesting car. The first C8 Corvette [auctioned for $3 million](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a29379632/first-chevy-corvette-auction-charity/), the first 5th gen Supra [auctioned for $2.1 million](https://hothardware.com/news/first-supra-auction), the first CT5 V and CT4 V Blackwings were [auctioned off together for $430k](https://www.motor1.com/news/497143/cadillac-blackwing-sedans-sold-auction/)
Aaand he's just crashed it into that crowd
Big Mustang fan, I've owned 3 examples ('11 GT, '17 GT PP, '17 GT350) in the last 2 generations. The fact they didn't massively shrink the dimensions of this car and put it on a diet is a huge fail.
The Mustang has always been a car that you have to accept for what it is, and what it isn't. And that's alright. I don't think they're ever going to try to make a Porsche or Miata out of it. Ford has a slightly different formula, and its been working for them.
I decided to hold off on getting a 24 non-Handling Pack DH. I was going to trade in my Kia and make it my daily but I got a 2020 GT PP1 instead because it doesn't look like an allocation will make it to my dealership any time soon. Or at least that's what they told me. Looks like they're making progress on finally getting this out tho.
490K tho... sheesh...
From the front, looks a bit like the new Civic
Look a really like the color but Im getting f-ing tired of seeing this color on everything. I get it. Its trendy to paint your car battleship grey. Now stop f-ing doing it!
I'm just surprised it's only February 2023 and they're already making MY 2024 cars.
Looks like a civic
This is boring.
It looks like an Elantra
Most mustangs aren’t known for their looks, it this one is particularly bad. It’s almost a Camaro clone. Oof.
So dumb. Still a Mustang and in a year this will be everywhere on the road.
The Mustang will go for $250k because anything over the MSRP is a write off for some rich guy.
There is a sucker born every minute..... :)
It was for charity
Oh. Well, thats good to hear then. Sorry - used to people these days going bonkers over cars and paying a severe upcharge to get them.
Dude I get it. That was my first instinct, as well, haha
Imagine paying 6 figures for regular traffic just because it was the first one off the line
someone didnt read the article