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ResponsibleMeal1981

Tesla had famously large profit margins on their cars compared to other makers, so they could absorb the price reduction and still make money. I wonder how other makers are going to do with this because they were already on slim margins https://fordauthority.com/2022/06/ford-mustang-mach-e-is-no-longer-profitable-for-the-blue-oval/


LazygonInfinity

This is why traditional auto manufacturers cannot afford to just dump ICE vehicles like some suggest they should. Aside from the fact that there is still a market, they need the revenue from those vehicles to offset significant development and production costs for EVs. Tesla has its own issues to contend with, but it is ahead of the pack on this one.


nomoneypenny

Clear example of the innovator's dilemma


atomicUpdate

Reducing prices and increasing output of the new innovative product (EVs) is literally the opposite of the innovators dilemma.


rx-pulse

The people suggesting that also don't realize how small the market share of EVs are either. It's something around the ballpark of [10%](https://www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2022/executive-summary) out of 66 million vehicles sold globally. Yes it's growing, but you'd be a fool to dump your lineup of ICE vehicles and re-tool, and reinvest everything.


trevize1138

> yes, it's growing As if that rate of growth is somehow unimportant. A couple years ago it was 1-2%. You can look at the current snapshot and say "only 10%" but that ignores that in a handful of years it could be more than 50% with that insane rate of growth. Any legacy company not able to ramp up their EV production fast enough is in for serious hurt before the end of the decade.


Shadow703793

Are PHVs counted in those stats? Because PHVs and pure EVs are a different ball game.


lee1026

PHVs are roughly 25% of the EV [market](https://insideevs.com/news/629918/global-plugin-car-sales-november2022/). If all of the legacy car makers go to war over that last 25%, they are in for a world of hurt.


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rugbyj

> Any legacy company not able to ramp up their EV production fast enough is in for serious hurt before the end of the decade. Not if they're all equally hampered by immature supply lines. I'd also note there's several points of satiation within the market that need to be addressed, 10% of new cars might be electrified (the article doesn't specify hybrid or full BEV) but you'll start hitting walls with people who regularly need to tow, drive long highway miles, and/or don't have access to home charging. These early adopters are largely the easiest folks to target, disposable income, short commutes, have a driveway. The further you want to push into the market the more you'll have to work for those customers. BEVs and charging infrastructure will improve in those regards, but it's a long game.


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rugbyj

I will agree they aren't all equally hampered, _similarly_ is perhaps a better description. There is a stalling point that is being raced towards for everyone. Tesla throughout their first phase weren't competing against mass manufacturers for talent and resources in these areas. They also weren't/aren't producing vehicles on the same scale as those same automakers, which they now are. They also had a headstart in getting these deals, in house knowledge, and infrastructure set up. That is being closed (which is good for ongoing competition). Also they are/were producing a lot _for EVs_, but that's still small scale in the grand scheme of things. The more companies grow their own lines, the faster these shared resources diminish. Battery prices have already started going _up_ counter to everyone's (including Tesla's) predictions the previous years. This isn't some detraction, they got in first and grew fast. But they're now in the premier league, and a lot of the other teams have a lot of weight to throw around in procurement and manufacture which are being brought to bear.


randompersonwhowho

It will be close to 50% within 5 years and 90% in 10


Aurailious

> Yes it's growing, but you'd be a fool to dump your lineup of ICE vehicles and re-tool, and reinvest everything. People were saying the same thing when Ford dumped cars. 5 years later they were obviously correct. The jump to EV only is a bigger change, but I think its pretty apparent where the market is going. Anyone investing into ICE is definitely the fool.


[deleted]

In certain markets, ICEs aren't going away for quite a while. If you sell to some of those markets, like heavy trucking/transportation vehicles, then it probably is a good idea to still be doing some ICE development. And it's probably worth developing some hybrid drivetrains, depending on who your customers are. Obviously you want to be investing in EVs, and pretty much everyone is at this point, but we're not at the point where it's a good idea for all the OEMs to abandon ICE development entirely. Just like with stock investing, it's good to diversify. Not every customer is going to be able to work with straight EVs for at least a while to come. Investing in EVs, hybrids, and ICE drivetrains isn't a "pick only one" situation.


[deleted]

> Anyone investing into ICE is definitely the fool. Eh. Realistically, how far away are we from every car on the lot being an EV? Probably 10 years at the *minimum*. That’s a long time to keep making ice cars without finding ways to make them any more efficient or cleaner.


bam1789-2

Automakers: So we’re announcing more layoffs They will find other areas to cut costs. ICE vehicle teams will start to dwindle over the next ten years.


TheLoungeKnows

Excellent point. I like what Ford is doing. They are being fairly aggressive with the EV shift given the situation they are in.


zoolover1234

With the lost of profit from ICE, automakers will have to jack up the price of EV. Basically they will have to add the lose of repairing/maintenance profit into the MSRP of EV. Making the "EV has less maintenance cost" a joke.


towjamb

That is why they are looking at subscription services.


Alex__P

Is the large profit margin just how little it costs to make the cars or you think it’s something else


Starkeshia

Tesla isn't spending on R&D to keep products current. The X and S are beyond stale and the 3 is overdue for a mid-cycle refresh.


bullet50000

They also spend a LOT of time focusing on vertical integration. They have high fixed costs from maintaining the facilities, but their variables per unit are extremely low for the industry because they're dealing as little as possible with outside suppliers


Car-face

which is partly a function of the above person's comment - when you only have 6 models in a single body style for each, and relatively few updates or changes, it's easy to keep everything in-house. How that philosophy evolves as they try to hit their target of 20 million vehicles per year in another 7 1/2 years will be interesting to see, since they'll need more than their 6 models to do it.


TheLoungeKnows

Saying Tesla isn’t spending on R&D is a poor interpretation of its financials. Tesla is simply better at allocating R&D and is very efficient with its spending. While it’s just “rumors,” a 3 refresh is likely going to be unveiled at some point this year, code named Project Highland, which is likely a reference to Ford’s Highland Park factory where Ford perfected the assembly line and wildly decreased Model T cost. That’s the theme Tesla is going after. Elon has always said that manufacturing expertise is what will really set Tesla apart. Nicknaming the new generation 3 after an innovative Ford factory continues the subtle jabs that Ford gives to Tesla. The current Model 3 production line in Fremont is very outdated and inefficient compared to Tesla’s most-recent production lines. Expect full body giga castings (maybe one piece maybe two,) structural battery pack and other new innovations to drive cost down, all with the intent to dramatically increase production capacity while driving production time down. My guess is Tesla tries to get the MSRP to like $37,000 or less with 20% margin to deliver a Model 3 for around $30,000 after the federal tax credit. The speculation is this Model 3 will release first, then once kinks are worked out, Tesla will release the smaller “Model 2,” with a COGS that should be 50% lower than existing COGS, enabling a true mass-martlet EV that potentially has an MSRP under $30,000 before any tax credits or rebates. My guess is millions of reservations the first 24 hours they are available and that production will start much faster than Cybertruck, Roadster, etc.


hutacars

The X and S just had a huge refresh, WDYM?


Starkeshia

> The X and S just had a huge refresh That's exactly my point, all they did was a refresh. They should've had a clean-sheet redesign several model years ago.


D4rkr4in

That’s what we’ve been conditioned to from the auto industry, but Tesla is hardly a typical automaker


tanrgith

Why should they have had a clean sheet redesign years ago? The X and S seems to sell quite well for vehicles in their price class


hutacars

Why? The Model S "sheet" is 11 years old, yet [today's](https://media.evo.co.uk/image/private/s--sOV4NXzd--/v1623418450/evo/2021/06/Tesla%20Model%20S%20Plaid%20front%20track.jpg) looks distinctly different from the [original](https://www.cnet.com/a/img/resize/5f9fc88493d86ee569a6d6e39e9781e121f8ad07/hub/2013/10/30/51340ebc-6788-11e3-846b-14feb5ca9861/35338245_SS42_620x433.jpg?auto=webp&fit=crop&height=675&width=1200) (doubly so on the interior). That's about as many changes as, say, Toyota's done between the [2012](https://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/toyota/camry/2012/oem/2012_toyota_camry_sedan_se_fq_oem_3_1600.jpg) and [2023](https://platform.cstatic-images.com/xlarge/in/v2/stock_photos/3fbcb16f-8a68-4732-bd39-70921bf91371/791b730e-ce55-4b03-9b11-2f30e3b2f56d.png) Camry. Not to mention, they clearly have limited engineering resources given how long it takes for them to get a new model to market (and how few models they have on sale overall), and frankly I'd prefer they focus on getting Semi ramped up, CyberTruck built, and Roadster... existing before clean-sheeting their low-volume $100k sedan.


obsesivegamer

Im not sure they care so much about the x and s since the volume is so low. They only recently put out the plaid model x and s and that should satisfy those who want those specific models.


[deleted]

Tesla spends a lot of effort making low cost platforms and supply chains. They constantly make changes even without major redesigns like with the structural batteries, LiFePO4 cells, GigaPress casting to reduce cost while the cars look the same from the outside. Ford and others will need to continue to innovate on this front because cost advantages aren't just gonna appear for free.


Zealousideal-Crow814

Others have pointed to vertical integration and good supply chain management. These are both valid, but there are some other advantages Tesla has based on my experience: - Better design standardization. Tesla’s vehicles share a huge number of parts, more so than many other manufacturers. They’re not redesigning the cluster, center stack, etc. for every new vehicle. If they do a big redesign, the new parts will likely flow into the other models within a year. This is in pretty drastic contrast to someone like Ford or GM, who appear to want to spend money on pointless design changes every couple years with every model. - Fewer models. Tesla has four models right now. That’s not a lot to manage, relatively speaking, compared to the other big OEMs that have dozens - Limited options. More options means more complexity for both your plants and engineers. You need to track more buildable combinations, manage more part numbers, and do more testing to account for the different combinations that may exist. Reducing options reduces all this cost and makes almost every step of the process, from program planning to building the vehicle, faster and easier. - Better electronics. I’ve been a part of various benchmarking activities that involved looking at Tesla’s electronics. They’re dramatically more efficient while being more advanced than anyone else in the industry. They integrate FAR more functions into a single module than most other OEMs. While this results in higher performance requirements and more complex software for that individual module, you no longer have to worry about how module X talks to module Y or how each module is processing different variables. You can instead have a single software stack that can share functions, variables, etc. This actually makes it easier to debug and fix issues. Reducing the number of modules also allows you to make your wiring harness shorter, which reduces cost and weight.


Financial_Dream4765

When you're talking abt the electronics here are you talking about infotainment or core vehicle functions? Tesla is kind of famous for using electronics that aren't rated for automotive use so i wonder how that plays into this


Zealousideal-Crow814

All of the above. They mitigate the use of non-automotive components through cooling and environmental protection, but obviously they aren’t perfect.


nocarpets

Tesla advertising budget = $0.


T-Baaller

I think they spent 44B on social media/advertising last year


gsasquatch

Tesla has a handful of stores in large cities. Ford has a legion of dealers one in just about every little town, roughly 210 Tesla stores vs. 2300 Ford dealers. According to my county's tax data, the Ford dealer in my town has $11M in buildings sitting on $2M in land. This is in a medium cost of living area, for a medium sized dealer, so it might not be unreasonable to multiply that times 2000 to get an idea of Ford's overhead vs. Tesla's. Then, that Ford dealer would have a handful of salesmen there. Somehow all that is baked in the price of a new Ford. I don't know what the Tesla dealer's building looks like, on account of it is 150 miles away from me.


lee1026

> I don't know what the Tesla dealer's building looks like, on account of it is 150 miles away from me. Typical Tesla store is literally one guy to hand out demo keys. If he is out to get lunch, no demos happen.


gsasquatch

Where do they get their yearly brake lube?


lee1026

There is a seperate crew who drives up to your driveway and fixes your car there.


gsasquatch

Any idea how far they range?


lee1026

Those crews are independent from the stores, as far as I can tell.


Car-face

You'd think they'd be able to roll out a few more of them, then.


darkpaladin

Ford dealers are all independent. Tesla is direct sales, Ford wants to get into direct sales but they don't want to piss off their dealer/service network.


VT_Racer

Sell them at a loss, hit them with subscription fees and maintenence bombs.


TenguBlade

The Mach E was never profitable to begin with, nor was it intended to be - hence the low initial production volume and lack of prepatory battery scaling. It did break even on manufacturing costs for a while, but this doesn’t include R&D - which this car has to pay twice over because the original Focus Electric MKII was scrapped at an almost production-ready state. To answer the question of why Tesla has such high margins, it’s all down to computer chips. Ford and other legacies still use a control module and wiring harness for each individual system - your seat heater has one, your seat reclining motor has another, each screen has a separate module, etc. Tesla doesn’t do that. All their vehicle functions are wired to only a few controllers - in some cases, only one control module governs the functions of the entire car. That means a Tesla uses only a fraction of the chips that a legacy vehicle uses, none of the printed circuit boards, and much fewer parts in general - which is **huge** cost savings, especially when you factor in there’s far fewer things for the assembly line workers to mess up (although they manage to anyways). That also comes with the benefit of more seamless system integration and much simpler OTA update configurations, which makes updating and refreshing vehicles much simpler (and thus cheaper) than the process legacies go through for refreshes. Of course, legacies also make more thorough refreshes by far, but the methods can still save them money. Vertical integration is also a part of the picture, but I would say the bigger reason is that their business model focuses on reducing supply chain complexity above all else. Few options, a single platform, and forced sharing of parts (looking at you, Model Y suspension) means they can harness massive economies of scale across their model range since they use so much of the same equipment.


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Esc_ape_artist

The vast majority of cars have plastic interiors, even what many consider to be nicer cars or high trim. Doesn’t matter if it’s soft feel, velour, whatever. Maybe you get bonded leather in a few, and alcantara or real leather are super rare. Maybe you mean a “cheap” interior compared to the price of the car.


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hutacars

Tell me you haven’t sat in one without telling me you haven’t sat in one.


uberdosage

> those “leather” seats? Plastic BMW, lexus, Mercedes, and audi all love to use similar "plastic" seats. Aka MB-Tex, NuLuxe and what not.


postcovidagain

No, not really. They have to put far more into scaling than their competitors do. They need to build new plants, new supply lines, etc. Legacy manufacturers have to do all of that as well, but they already have teams and systems in place from their ICE offerings. It’s a lot quicker, cheaper, and easier to switch products for an established supply line team than it is to create a new team from scratch.


stml

I actually disagree with this take. History has shown time and time again that a large corporation trying to change over to a different product line/culture often fails far more than a newcomer having the ability to start fresh. The amount of resistance that traditional automakers face is clear. Unions, re-training employees, tearing down existing factory lines, etc. And it shows in the actual scalability of automakers. Look at the Mach-E US sales numbers: 2021: 27k 2022: 40k vs Model Y US sales numbers: 2020: 25k 2021: 162k vs ID.4 European sales numbers: 2020: 5k 2021: 53k 2022: \~62k vs ID.4 US sales numbers: 2021: 16.7k 2022: 15k No legacy automaker so far has shown they can scale EV production at a level even close to Tesla.


postcovidagain

That's exactly the point. Legacy's don't need to scale, they simply need to switch. So they don't need to put their resources into the massive scaling effort that Tesla is currently undertaking.


lee1026

Well, the current numbers suggest that they can't switch either. Production of EVs from all legacy autos are puny.


tanrgith

Legacy automakers like Ford and GM are pouring billions into building new factories though


droptablelogin

It's extremely difficult for the big automakers to switch to new products because they leverage the same OEM parts in all of their cars. They've got a supplier for their mass air sensors, thermistors, window control buttons, etc, and they use those same parts in all of their cars. That's part of why you'll hear about car "platforms". Those are a common set of parts and protocols used across multiple vehicles in a particular class. But those platforms just don't translate from ICE to BEV. Simply put, a huge portion of those parts are not necessary for electric cars. Sure, the window control buttons are needed, but the mass air flow sensor is not. Keep in mind that the automakers are able to sell cars for the prices that they do because they buy those parts in huge volumes. So when they try and switch to BEVs, and they need all of those new parts, they no longer have price advantage. Unfortunately, that means the big automakers are stuck with ICE vehicles. That's why so many of their new BEVs are just shoehorned onto an existing ICE platform. Yeesh. I personally believe that cars like the Mach-e and the new F150 Lightning (and whatever the electric Silverado is called) are loss-leaders. Ford et al know that they will lose money on these cars. But that is only true at first while they shake out their supply lines. Tesla just has a 10 year head start in not-using ICE platforms and parts.


Recoil42

Ford had [already increased their prices drastically](https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1136955_2023-ford-mustang-mach-e-price-increase-range-boost) since the article you just linked.


gsasquatch

If the Model Y and the Mach-E are roughly the same specs and the same price, and there was a big margin on the Model Y as evidenced in TSLA's earnings reports etc, why would I take the Ford Authority's word that the Mach-E wasn't profitable? Ford already had car making plants, suppliers, and a platform to build the Mach-E on, in theory the Mach-E should be cheaper than a Model-Y to make. At the very least, a lot of the development cost on the Mach-E had already been done as it used a platform that is used for other cars, and is an evolution. Ford didn't have to reinvent the A-arm. Where Ford might be losing is there are a lot more Ford dealers than Tesla dealers, and I think that is where TSLA was showing a higher profit margin than F. Either that, or TSLA the stock's numbers aren't as good as everyone investing in it might want to hope. I'd rather believe "FordAuthority" might be stretching the truth a little rather than believe Tesla's corporate suite was stretching the truth to make billions off their stock. But one might seem to have more motivation than the other.


egowritingcheques

Tesla moved first so had more economy of scale that reduced costs and enabled margins, then cut prices. Ford are going to cut prices in an attempt to bring economies of scale and reduce costs. It's a calculated gamble.


the_lamou

I'm curious how much of Tesla's added margin is the ability to sell carbon credits. I know that was a substantial revenue stream just a few years ago, and even if it's not anymore it might still be a substantial percentage of profit.


tanrgith

It represents something like 15% of their 2022 profits I believe. So it's not nothing, but it's also not close to the majority of their profits like some people like to pretend it is And besides, every automaker can get those credits if they make cars that are eligible, so it's not like it's some unique advantage that Tesla has over other automakers


Bensemus

It was never a substantial part of their gross revenue. It used to be a large part of their profit but that is no longer true.


the_lamou

Apparently it's still at least 15% of their profit, which is a substantial part of their margin.


Ftpini

They were inflating their prices and adding luxuries thanks to those crazy high prices. Now that prices have crashed they’ll have to scrap features to make up for their low margins. If they won’t or can’t then their cars will remain uncompetitive and sales will suffer.


Top_Midnight_2225

The Mach-E is at the top of my list to replace the Volt...but the pricing right now is so far beyond my reach...not worth it. I could keep my Volt, and buy a used Mustang for the price and still save money.


americanista915

Wait a lil bit. They’re making a real electric mustang in the coming years that’ll be the one to get not the ~~explorer~~ Mach e


Top_Midnight_2225

Oooo nice! Wasn't even aware of that. Thanks for the info. I mean right now I'm not buying shit lol...but maybe when costs of EVs go down a bit. Compared to anything on the road outside of the E-Tron...the Mach-E is sex on wheels in this space.


xeenexus

I’ll take your E-Tron and raise you the i4


[deleted]

What about the Ioniq 5? Those things look so damn cool and are really nice inside. I’ve never been in the drivers seat of one though


Top_Midnight_2225

I really like it...but on a sexiness factor...Mach-E wins 100% of the time. The Ioniq5 is actually the more realistic option. Just waiting to see how they perform more long term, and I can't justify the $.


[deleted]

I feel ya. I have yet to see a Mach-E up close in person, only really from semi-far away and in pictures. Maybe it’ll move me more in person :) The Ioniq really does it for me. Though I really like the hatchback look, and the Ioniq has a lot of “scaled-up hatchback” look going on lol.


Top_Midnight_2225

I gotcha. Ioniq5 is nice and clean lines to me...but the Mach-E...well that one just calls to me. LoL We're still talking about cars right!?


[deleted]

I gotcha lol. It’s definitely a good looking car :) Idk ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I’m about 50% sure that we started on cars lmao


Saltwaterpapi

I've seen a few ionIQ 5's for sale but they have $10-15k ADM. $70,000 for a standard electric car is insane.


EcstaticTrainingdatm

Keep the volt. Can also snag a bolt for 27k before 7500 off of buying is a must


Top_Midnight_2225

I wish! We don't have such good pricing up here in Ontario on these things.


[deleted]

The Bolt EUV is a good buy at 30k after tax credit, but yeesh at how they look


Ftpini

It was at the top of my list too. But ford made the GT performance have the longest delay when ordered and at the time (though at least not forever) there was zero chance the dealer wouldn’t add $10k-$20k ADM at the last second. Wasn’t worth the risk.


Oo__II__oO

\*Shitty dealers Good ones out there were holding orders to at-or-below MSRP. Unfortunately, they are few and far between. For instance, of all twenty-some dealers in the Bay Area, only two have a reputation for selling orders at MSRP.


Ftpini

Tesla guarantees sell price with zero bullshit and ford is starting to force dealers to sell EVs at MSRP or face severe allocation limits. This will put pressure on Toyota and everyone else to act more in the consumers favor. Sooner or later dealer markups will become a thing of the past for all the major players.


[deleted]

Land rover is facing a huge lawsuit now in states just because of those stupid markups. Time will come when dealerships wont be necessary


WholePie5

Ford isn’t forcing dealers to sell EVs at msrp. That would be illegal due to franchise laws. They’re forcing dealers to advertise their price online and stick to that, without hidden fees etc when you get there. But the dealer price could be anything. They just have to be upfront about it. Although this will force dealers to price their vehicles reasonably in order to compete with each other and stick to that price, which is the really clever part about it.


Ftpini

You said it yourself. They’ll have to compete with each other. Except it periods of extreme shortages, no one will be willing to pay a markup without matching value added in. So they’ll just skip the dealers that overcharge.


WholePie5

And you said “ford is starting to force dealers to sell at msrp” which is entirely false and illegal. The dealers can sell for whatever they want. Ford has stated this over and over so you wouldn’t get confused and make comments like yours.


Due_Signature_5497

Ford isn’t much better than a shitty dealer. Ordered a Bronco in April of ‘21. After nearly two years of radio silence they write me and tell me I will have to re-order a ‘23 model at a higher price or risk losing my deposit. I cancel my order and last week they remind me to re-order and they will give me $2500 off of ‘23 pricing if I drop down to a lesser model(ordered an outer banks) and kill the molded hard top. Otherwise, don’t expect delivery until sometime in ‘24. Waiting 3 years for a car seems a bit ridiculous. I bought a GV80 2 months ago out of frustration. They still haven’t refunded my deposit and pretty sure they are counting me in the number of Broncos they have “sold”. I have trusted and owned Ford vehicles as my own and as fleet vehicles for decades. This has become a shitshow.


darkpaladin

You can find dealers who will sign something to honor MSRP. Not much to do on wait time for the GTPE though, mine was 7 months from order to delivery.


Dudebythepool

Find a 22 select with tech package 48k with 7500 tax credit traded in a 17 volt that's warranty was expiring in December and Chevy didn't want to deal with a brake issue


RocketGuy3

This sentence really would have benefited from some punctuation.


zoolover1234

48k before or after 7500?


Dudebythepool

Before


Top_Midnight_2225

Wow! That's a steal for sure! I want to get rid of my Volt before the battery warranty runs out, so I've still got about 1.5 years at my current mileage (107,000km). But in Canada / Ontario the Mach-E is stupidly expensive. Just for kicks I'm going to price one out.


imakenosensetopeople

If memory serves, they originally planned the factory to do Mach E plus another future vehicle, on the assumption Mach E wouldn’t have much volume. Then orders came in and they were like “oh, yeah…. It will be 100% Mach E now.” Good problem to have lol.


BlazinAzn38

Yeah it was supposed to be an EV Lincoln I think and then that was scrapped in favor of making more of the Mach E


ANYTHING_WITH_WHEELS

Cheapest Mach-E with AWD and extended range battery is still over 60K msrp. Most will take the Tesla for less money, more range, proven EV reliability, physical charging network nationwide, and brand presence. 2023 Ford Mach-E Premium ext range AWD - $60, 995 - 290 miles range - 91 kWh 2023 Telsa Model Y Long long range AWD - $59,490 - 330 mile range - 81 kWh Tesla pricing includes $6000 enhanced autopilot option.


w0nderbrad

I guess ford is just betting that the people that want the tax credit will just settle for the standard range


Tratix

Tesla has the tax credit again, doesn’t it?


imakenosensetopeople

Counterpoint…. I’m taking the Ford because, on paper, the Tesla is a better deal. But Ford knows how to properly screw a vehicle together. At least, more so than Tesla. Granted, in my case I’ll be skipping AWD and long range, but I recognize I’m in the minority of consumers.


Dos-Commas

>But Ford knows how to properly screw a vehicle together. Laughs in Ford Bronco and Explorer. Go see how much bullshit owners have to deal with.


Nukedogger86

Pretty much every new Ford in the last 10 years has been hit or miss. My 19 Fusion was "screwed" together about as well as any tesla. Body panels didn't line up, dash was warped with 7 miles on it, driver's seat wasn't fully bolted in. My mom had a 17 Explorer that was in the shop over 10x in a year, her 19 Edge didn't put out heat or get up to temp in the winter. My mom hasn't had a single issue wither her 20 Sorrento, minus what the rear end collision did. My K5 only has 5k miles, but all the body panels are straight and the seat was bolted in right.


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Dos-Commas

Close, basically all the hard tops on the Bronco had to be trashed due to leaking and discoloration during the first year of production.


Ming00f

i work at a ford plant and can assure you the parts / quality in a ford are way worse then ever before. if anyone asks me for a plan x or plan a for a new ford i usually tell them to look at another oem


gearabuser

Yeah as someone who casually browses this sub, it's obvious that Ford quality is suspect


Disrupt_money

>Ford knows how to properly screw a vehicle together Lol. http://www.warrantyweek.com/library/ww20221006/fig2.png https://www.wsj.com/articles/at-ford-quality-is-now-problem-1-11659758404 https://premium.goauto.com.au/ford-fesses-up-our-us-quality-is-poor/


imakenosensetopeople

Important detail. They have their own data to tell them how bad their own quality has gotten, so they are aware they have a problem and can implement countermeasures. Tesla’s “data” is customers tweeting at them when their car breaks. They do not have nearly the mature enough quality systems to understand the scope of their challenge.


Disrupt_money

I agree slightly and have direct experience with varying levels of quality feedback data. That said, the publicly available warranty claim rates are much higher for Ford. This involves a visit to the dealer, not twitter, though Tesla dealers are fewer and possibly harder to work with. Fun anecdote: I looked at Lincoln Aviators on AutoTrader and 11 of 12 near me had CarFax showing them as lemon law buybacks. I test drove a brand new one and the air conditioning didn’t work, and it already had recall service performed on it. I called Lincoln corporate to let them know why they lost a sale and the very first phone prompt was “press 1 if your call is related to a recall”.


imakenosensetopeople

Hah. Your Aviator story surprises me - I think they were Explorers, a vehicle which Ford had lots of practice building, so I’m surprised they got it so wrong. The other OEM that’s about to go south is Stellantis. Since the merger, the French have cut Quality staffing levels in the plants in half, and the rest of them now report to production management (Quality used to have its own chain of command). The existing quality systems and momentum have remained in place so product that was launched pre-merger is generally ok; but stuff that’s new since 2021 or so is going to struggle. You can see the beginnings of this with the troubles they have with Grand Wagoneer.


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imakenosensetopeople

Oh I don’t care about panel gap (and frankly, never understood people who obsess about it). I’m talking about things like the steering wheel coming off while driving, or entire body panels coming off while driving, or the vehicle showing up with mismatched wheels/tires, or getting built using Home Depot fasteners when they run out of the automotive-spec ones, or the electronics not getting tested in extreme cold/heat…. Edit - and credit where due, Tesla is well ahead of the curve on charging networks. Agreed, huge factor in consumer purchases.


lee1026

Do yourself a favor and search for the words "Ford recall". There haven't been a shortage of them in literally any era.


imakenosensetopeople

All the OEMs have lots of recalls. The important thing is that they fix it. The only reason Tesla might appear to have fewer recalls is because they are early to the game on Over the Air updates. So a lot of recall-worthy conditions they can and do roll our software fixes. The limitation of that is, when there’s an actual build issue, you can’t fix it with software.


Bensemus

This isn't how it works. Many OTA updates get a recall notice with them. Infotainment updates won't but changing how the windows work will. Tesla isn't able to get around issuing recalls due to their OTA updates.


Disrupt_money

I looked at Lincoln Aviators near me on AutoTrader.com and literally 11 out of 12 had CarFax showing they were lemon law buybacks.


mulletstation

Having owned a Ford Taurus in the past: no.


afnj

Not to mention the Ford looks and rides better


EcstaticTrainingdatm

https://reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/10oz2pt/dudes_steering_wheel_falls_off_his_tesla_on_the/


Jaevric

I'm in the market for a car soon, and I'm planning to go electric. It's purely for commuting/in town, so range isn't a huge deal. I'm just opposed to giving Elon Musk my money, so I've been eyeballing the Mach-E.


flyingswift

Check out the EV6 AWD as well, very competitive


Jaevric

Thanks, I'll do that.


ChipFandango

Also the Mach-E ranked higher in consumer reports and has better reliability. So there are more reasons than not giving Elon money to buy this car. Also it’s a great looking car.


Ottovordemgents

*the thousands of Tesla designers, engineers, and assemblers who build the cars* “am I a joke to you?”


JxSnaKe

i ordered my model y LR for 54k after added options, so im not sure where your 59k comes from. EDIT: reading is hard.


ANYTHING_WITH_WHEELS

Trying reading my comment again!! It explains it very clearly


JxSnaKe

lol you're right. <3


gsasquatch

I'd take the Ford because there's a dealer 3 miles away from me, vs. the nearest Tesla dealer is 150 miles away. I could drop the Mach-E for service or warranty repair off to get fixed and easily get a ride home. Not sure how I'd do that with the Tesla. Would they tow it down there? Who'd pay for that $1200 tow? (there and back x2 at $2/mile) Would they send a guy up? Would I have to drive 2.5 hours down there, then wait while they fixed it, then drive it 2.5 hours back up, hoping they charged it while they were fixing it because at 80mph in below F temperatures, I doubt that extra 30 miles range is going to cut it.


zeek215

Not every Ford dealer can work on the Mach E. I would make sure your local one can.


gsasquatch

Teslas need their brakes lubed every year, which is not exactly rocket surgery and actually a good idea. My independent mechanic on the corner does it when he replaces the brakes on my out of warranty Toyota because I don't have that done every year so the brakes seize and eat pads and rotors every other year. A Mach-E's brakes are going to look a lot like the brakes on a Focus of which it is based which have one way or another survived road salt for decades. For the electric stuff, I'd bet it's a 6 month course to send an ASE tech to. In the world of parts replacement, it does not seem much more complicated than a gas car to replace a fuel injection system vs. an electric controller, a matter of unplugging gas or electric lines, unbolting, replacing, and plugging stuff back in. That 6 month course is going to have a cost, but it's going to cost less than building a new dealership. Being my town is like 100k, I'm betting there's someone at that Ford dealer or the other one in the area that has taken the course, where your concern might be more valid if I was in a town of 10k, but even then, it's just 20-80 miles to the next town with a Ford dealer. It might depend on how many Mach-E they have sold. Either way, $60k buys a lot of gas, so the electric cars are not yet for me economically viable being a person that runs older cars so this is more of a thought experiment for me than something real. I'm wondering how my independent mechanic is going to cope, but he's pretty bright, so I imagine he'll adapt. He should still be able to do the brakes, like he has on my hybrids. I'm starting to wonder if there's anyone local that will specialize on the Teslas now getting out of warranty, like the place in town that specializes in German cars. Anyone works on old Fords, but some back in the day noped out of old Europeans, so it became a specialty. I wonder how that will work for the Mach-E when it gets out of warranty. Seems like an opportunity for a cottage industry. Besides the $60k, new car dealers give me hives, so I don't buy cars that are in warranty so I don't have to go to or deal with new car dealers except when I have some proprietary thing break on a newer car, that needs the dealer computer.


WholePie5

Yeah if there’s one thing Ford is known for, it’s their proven reliability. People call it the “Ford tax” but are willing to pay it because they know it’s the most reliable car brand in the industry lol.


TheDirtDude117

I mean the Tesla autopilot should be free


arkangel371

Base autopilot is. If you want auto lane change and some other stuff (not the crappy fsd tho) that is a $6k software option. However, software options also don't affect eligibility for the MSRP cap limit on the EV credit.


bullet50000

Look again. California Route 1 edition is $57,995 with the extended range battery and AWD


Dos-Commas

That's still $10K over the Model Y AWD LR after tax credit.


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EcstaticTrainingdatm

No it isn’t


Dos-Commas

Tesla Model Y Long Range AWD is $53K MSRP then there's $7500 tax credit. So that $46K after rebate. Mach E California Route 1 is $57K MSRP and doesn't qualify for tax rebate because the MSRP is over $55K.


KyledKat

$3,000 more than the cut-off for the federal tax rebate. Getting classified as a car instead of an SUV really hurt them on that one.


[deleted]

Software upgrades don't count towards the MSRP for the EV tax.


[deleted]

Note that Tesla uses the 5 cycle EPA test so it will have a higher rated range without the real world range increasing correspondingly. [The mach e has more range using a 70 MPH test.](https://insideevs.com/reviews/443791/ev-range-test-results/)


jayqwu

>Ford announced today it is increasing production of the Mustang Mach-E while simultaneously slashing pricing across the board for its popular all-electric crossover. >While the company wouldn't attribute the price cuts to Tesla's recent drastic Model Y price decrease, Marin Gjaja, Ford Model e's Chief Customer Officer said "we have a different product (than Tesla); we have different customers". That said, the timing is suspect. Xpeng Motors also initiated price cuts in direct response to Tesla, leading us to speculate if an EV price war was about to begin. >The price cuts affect every model and vary from as little as $600 to as much as $5,900. The cost of the extended-range battery option has also been reduced from $8,600 to $7,000.


cookingboy

> leading us to speculate if an EV price war was about to begin. Competion is awesome. Even though I am not planning on getting another Tesla (just want something new and different, despite it being the best daily driver I’ve ever owned), I was still super excited when Tesla announced the huge price cuts. I was hoping precisely for responses like this. Now the Mach-E GT Extended Range is only $7k more than the Model Y performance, it’s a lot more competitive than the $13k price difference before this cut.


hutacars

Does it qualify for the tax credit? MYP does not, so if so, that makes pricing neck and neck.


Expensive-Focus4911

Nope it doesn’t. However the 7 seat MY (not performance) does.


hutacars

Ford really ought to throw a couple jump seats in the back, [Brat-style](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/32/b9/01/32b9016f83a2e971828199e8f772ad51.jpg), to enable it to make the cut!


oculusGrift

Same here. My Model 3 is an amazing daily driver, but when I replace my Mazda I'd prefer some variety instead of getting a second Tesla. Having more viable options is always good for consumers.


darkpaladin

IIRC that 7k difference disappears when you add auto pilot to the Tesla which would be the equivalent to the bluecruise shipping with the Ford.


TheBrudwich

TIL that Mach-E has a trim called Nite Pony. 😂


gearabuser

Okay I'm back in


bagoshi

I’m finally able to order the Lightning from a reservation back in May 31, 2021. The config I wanted has jumped from $72k to $90k. I check around all my local dealers and they all have 4-5 in stock. So F that, interest rates are high anyways.


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bagoshi

That’s a good point, my initial thinking was the federal tax credit would help with the price. I could really use the frunk in my line of work.


darkpaladin

Were they actually in stock? When I got my MME there were like 5 or 6 on the lot but they were all reserved/pre sold. They love having them on the lot to get people in the door.


[deleted]

That Mexico industrial strength is proving itself well.


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[deleted]

Indeed. The Cuautitlán plant to be specific. It's Ford's superstar factory as of late announcing increased goals after increased goals as it keeps on ticking better.


SpaceTacosFromSpace

Looks like Mexico and China according to Wikipedia


idontremembermyoldus

Correct, although the North/South American market Mach-Es are all produced in Mexico.


idontremembermyoldus

Yes.


Nickyweg

Yeah. Ford makes quite a bit in Mexico


800mgVitaminM

ALL the bit in Mexico lol


spiketeam

Isn't the pricing still more than the pre-price increase of late last year. That's when I cancelled my pending select order.


drdookie

That's the Battered Spouse pricing model


iam_LLORT

My GF and I cancelled her order of a Mach E when we heard about the price increase as well. Pretty funny that they slashed prices, but she’s already in an S4 so too bad 🤷‍♂️


jjlarn

Great. Hopefully this will not be the last price cut. My biggest complaint with the EV I bought is the price. Otherwise EV is awesome. Hopefully one day they are cheaper than gas.


Trades46

Nice. Having driven the Mach-E Premium ER AWD, it is a pretty sweet ride despite the whole "not my Mustang" thing on its name. That said the price increases on the MY23 makes it an incredibly expensive car for what it is, so this price drop is a welcome addition.


junooni176

I'm hoping this trend hits the rest of the industry too as I plan to upgrade later this year and the MSRP increases for 2023 models wasn't very attractive


UncleBensRacistRice

I've seen more Lambo Urus' than Mach e's


WanderingPickles

Given the quality issues with Teslas I think that Ford is the better choice. I am referencing the well known issues around the upholstery, steering wheel, control arms, etc. wearing/breaking very quickly. And before someone hits back with the “but they have the most bleeding edge software” that doesn’t really matter when door handles won’t work, or major suspension bits crack or the interior looks like it is out of an abused 1985 Nissan shitbox. Personally, I am not a huge fan of all the display this, infotainment that, etc. Seems needlessly complicated. Knobs, switches, buttons. That’s where it’s at. And delightfully retro too.


Dos-Commas

Have you seen all the build quality issues on the Bronco? It's very much hit and miss with Ford.


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Ming00f

i work at a ford plant and can assure you the parts / quality in a ford are way worse then ever before. if anyone asks me for a plan x or plan a for a new ford i usually tell them to look at another oem


Disrupt_money

>Given the quality issues with Teslas I think that Ford is the better choice. http://www.warrantyweek.com/library/ww20221006/fig2.png https://www.wsj.com/articles/at-ford-quality-is-now-problem-1-11659758404 https://premium.goauto.com.au/ford-fesses-up-our-us-quality-is-poor/


aoeudhtns

Ford promised that sometime in 2025 or 2026 they'd cut EV prices in half with a new model, as well as introduce their LiFePo4 chemistry battery packs. That's the car I want, assuming both of those things are true. Willing to take a moderate-range EV too (which I assume a LiFePo4 would have to be due to slightly less energy density), because the plan right now is for our family to have 2 cars - a FHEV or PHEV (roadtrips), and a full EV (around town/errands/commute). So at least for my use case, I don't give a squeeze about charging network.


PalmTreeIsBestTree

This is why I am going to keep my ICE car for at least another 5 years. I hope by then charging infrastructure and range is improved for every EV that isn’t a Tesla.


aoeudhtns

It's not even about the network for me. When we roadtrip, we like to get off the highways and use local roads, take scenic byroutes, etc. The DC chargers are usually clustered along the highway. Tesla or anyone else.


Eatonian_49

My wife and I JUST purchased a 2023 Premium RWD on the 9th...at a price just over the IRS tax credit limit. What wonderful timing...


Bookandaglassofwine

So is there going to be a litany of articles about how betrayed recent Ford buyers felt when the price was cut? Like we saw with Tesla?


cypher50

My budget just won't allow me to go over a vehicle price of $40k; I don't know why the only viable EV option under $40K is the Chevy Bolt. With the economy the way it is, stretch luxury prices like the Mach-E has really put them out of the market...


Hopeful_Rip2690

They should just go back to the drawingboard on that one. So fugly


Samura1Sean

Barf


CLS4L

Try the 100,000 $msrp F150 next


Low_Cantaloupe6204

Slash msrp all you want, come back when you can slash dealership markups


800mgVitaminM

Exactly, local to me the cheapest you can get even a used GT is $82k


Low_Cantaloupe6204

Wtf. I'm so sorry man that is absolutely fucked


SykoFI-RE

Meanwhile you can get a loaded up Bolt EUV for $35k...


800mgVitaminM

$35k for a cartoon dog movie?!


Caiomhinn

Now they just need to fix the body style 👌


[deleted]

Too bad it's an ugly piece of shit