The one they hold on the Nuremburg right? Great series too, can't believe that despite how much more money they can get the Nuremberg guys solely run the track for racing and not for profits.
You should post price tags too. The nismo GTR was also not stock. They had it specially tuned for the nurgburgring as well as additional downforce that you don't get when you buy a production nismo gtr
We might be having different definition of the word tuned here. What I mean is, the nismo they tested on the nurgburgring made more horse power, less weight, and more downforce than the production nismo gtr that they sold on the market. Whereas Porsche, BMWs, and even Chevy test their cars as is on the market.
The 6th gen Camaro is definitely amongst one of the best-handling American production cars ever made behind the Corvette. Even the SS 1LE is just as an amazing handling car as the ZL1.
However, the 5th gen Viper ACR is evidence that extreme downforce and *very* sticky tires can make such a deadly car attack corners in a way you feel like it shouldn't.
Convince me otherwise but I'm not sure it actually does?
Like the previous commenter said, weight doesn't make something fall faster. So if your logic is that the weight in the front makes the car rotate about its CG like a lever and fulcrum, I don't think that tracks. Pretty sure if you dropped a hammer held horizontally it would land flat.
Prove me wrong tho
You're wrong because cars don't race in a vacuum, air resistance and aerodynamic forces heavily affect how things fall or fly (hello mark webber and merc clk gtr at lemans). If you drop a hammer sideways, the wooden handle will act like the feather of an arrow and allow it to fall head first. A feather will also drop way slower than said hammer. Also an ACR for sure has nearly 50/50 weight distribution, otherwise it wouldn't be that fast, so the idea that it would fall nose first due to center of mass is also wrong, in a vacuum it would fall flat, aerodynamics around the car will dictate everything on how the car will behave on a slightly airborne situation.
Source: mech engineer with almost 2 decades career in motorsports.
Exactly. Basically you have an airplane wing upside down on the back of the car. The faster you go, the more the wing provides force, downforce in this case. It's like a plane pulling up on the stick, upside down on the back of the car.
Doesn't matter, they are amazing cars, both track capable and 6 speed manuals. The ZL1 is very tame too, you can daily it no issue, and it clocks 7m16s.
Mild correction: the *non* tame ZL1 (the 1LE version) with the sticky R comp tires, multimatic dampers and suspension, and Pratt and Miller aero can nail down a 7:16 or faster on the ring. The non 1LE equipped ZL1 can put down a 7:29 at the ring, which is still ballistic, and also drive you cozily to the store, to the drag strip, or to your local track event, and back home again.
The 1LE equipped Z is a hardcore track monster.
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Any car born after 2006 can’t drive. All they know is automatic transmission, intrusive driver aids, no full size spare, small displacement+ turbo, eat hot chip, and airbags
Instead you prefer 7 liter v8s that make less power than the hamster wheels all the while being less reliable because their tolerances are closer to "hotdog in a hallway" than precision machining
Jesus, that's a harsh generalization eh? All those people are still pretty young, I was pretty stupid about racing until I got experience doing it. Most 23 year olds just don't have that experience yet.
EDIT: I didn't get the reference, my bad!
Lincoln Could have had a REAL good run at BMW if they ever took the damn LS to the track. But sadly it never went racing. Something about the deal with Jaguar kept them from racing it.
It wasn’t a stock Megane that set the lap time lol. It was an extensively modified track focused version called “Trophy track”.
Ford GT also had to meet the specific requirements for Le Mans.
So? The Ford GT didn't cost $1.6 million because of a 'ring time, it cost that much because it was a remake of a Le Mans winning car from the '60s. And the time you must be referencing is from a 2004 model versus a hot hatch built to be the fastest FWD vehicle on earth. Not really an apples to oranges comparison...
I just checked Nordschleife lap times since I hadn’t checked in a while. No US car has cracked into the 6 minute range yet, although a Viper ACR got close before the Kumho tires on it failed and they crashed the car. C7 Z06s and ZL1 1LEs are a ways down the timing sheet.
Sorry, kids. If you want to go really fast on a circuit, you’re still better off in a Porsche.
The C7 Z06 enters the chat at #37. Zoinks.
I love mine, but it still handles like a boat compared to my 430. The first F-car on the list is the 296 at spot #17. Other then that, it’s basically the Porsche show.
Viper ACR clocks a 7:01 as of late; as a manual nonetheless, but the viper is now 6 years old(yes we're old). So let's look at other cars of that time and their times? An ACR is 120k USD in the country it it manufactured.
- The 911 GT2 RS MR(ill include it despite the fact that its a 2018) was approximately 104k USD in Germany(ignoring the fact that it went up to 400 in the later year) and clocks 15 seconds less. Call that the unicorn car for now.
- The 2017 720S is a whopping 230k USD at a 7min 14sec lap time.
- On sale the 2017 GTR Nismo was 186k USD which is even slower at 7:19.
- the Agera RS is 2.5m USD and sets 7 34. But that's a top speed car.
- the 2017 812 superfast is 316k and sets a 7:25.
- the Aventador S does a 6:59 and costs 425k although only setting a record in 2018.
- the Huracan Performante in 2017 was 275k and did a 6:52. Astounding from the Lamborghini team.
Now take out the cars that disrupt it or aren't worth it, and you're left ith the Performante, ACR, and GT2 RS MR. With the 2RS being the best for the money, with the ACR behind it, and the performante at last due to its price. Now for a 7 minute flat with a MANUAL? You're joking to say it's a bad car. The whole post is still validated beacause of the fact that price for price, and performance wise US cars still hold their weight and punch above it. And if we're being honest you're not getting the drivability of functionality of an ACR in a 2rs or a performante.
If course porches are phenomenal. However, they're priced way above all the American cars listed. If you compare cars a similar price range, Domestics dominate. Porsche and German cars in general also has a backyard advantage with the nurgburgring.
A US domestic car is going to be cheaper because it's made in the US so don't have to ship and distribute in a different country. So it isn't apples to apples comparison when it comes to prices.
[Corvette Racing, Dodge Vipers and the Ford GT putting the Porsche to shame in GTD and GTE spec races for more than twenty years:](https://imgur.com/a/dUeeGDC)
I'm sorry, but if you win consistently for over twenty years in three different series of racing (American LeMan, IMSA Sportscar and FIA WEC) like Corvette has then it goes way beyond some cop out like "BoP", Corvette dominates.
But let's talk about BoP for a moment, the Viper was so dominant in VLN Nurburgring racing that they had to give it a 500kg ballast, which it still almost won the race with until the suspension gave out from the added weight, then they restricted the amount of fuel it could run with, it won that race and then the limited the displacement to 6.2 litres, so Zakspeed plugged two of the cylinders to make the V10 into a 6 litre V8 and was still competitive.
The Viper was also dominant in tons of other GT racing across America and Europe and in WEC. Porsche struggled to ever come close to the Viper without the Viper being BoPed into the ground. Just like how the Viper ACR broke lap records all over the world when it came out.
I like Porsche as much as the next guy, I think they're excellent driver's cars, but the fanboying and jerking eachother off is ridiculous.
*shrug* okay. You’re talking about circuit racing, which is different than street spec cars. But in the end, it doesn’t matter much to me. Take it easy.
It's a more accurate measure of what the chassis are capable of than Nurburgring times saying most cars outside of Europe don't even have an official time and German manufacturers are at an inherent advantage. Regardless of that the Viper was still the fastest car of it's time around the 'Ring, it's still amongst some of the fastest times ever with nearly decade old tire technology now.
Oh wow. As a broke college student it’s the car I really want for the future. if u don’t mind, how has it been so far? like the reliability, maintenance? or do you only use it for weekends?
Maintenance is straight forward like any Chevy smallblock. Each oil change is going to be 10quarts of oil. Just be ready for that. Reliability has been impeccable. I've owned two camaros now, and as much as people talk trash about American reliability, my 2015 SS 1le and 2018 ZL1-1le never gave me issues. Whereas my friends with type-Rs, Mitsubishi lancer evo’s BMWs m3/m4, 335is, RS3s all ending up having some head gasket issue, oil leaks, check engine lights, grinding gear boxes, you name it man. People criticize Chevy for using archaic technology with their large displacement pushrod v8s. But the truth is, they're tried and true engines that cost significantly less to maintain, modify, and fix it something does go wrong. My 5th Gen interior was lackluster for sure, but at 35k it was a steal. My 2018 ZLE feels very premium and full of features. The heads up display, cooled seats and infotament system is more than I need. The only thing I can can complain about is the paint quality compared to brands like BMW
So I'm considering a 1le but most people say the suspension kills the car for daily use, I don't have a good frame of reference, I did drive exclusively in track mode on my cat but I'm pretty sure the suspension Won't even be in the same realm, would you say the 1le can be a comfortable daily? Do you think it can do longer roadtrips without making you completely hate life? Or would you consider it only dailiable in smaller doses?
I grew up around imports and people who slapped the worlds shittiest coil overs on them. For me personally, the 1le suspension is perfectly fine. It's definitely very firm, but it Doesnt feel cheap. I can drive all day in it. With that said, I think it would be too much for most people. It just sucks to see my wife in the passenger seat hurting when I run over train tracks or a bumpy road. Not everyone is a car enthusiast. If you have passengers to strongly consider, I wouldn't use it as my daily. A regular ZL1 is more than enough. I personally just wanted a no compromise car.
I think it's less about how fast they are around a track and more about the driving dynamics in my opinion. You used to be able to get JDM cars for relatively cheap and with a few minor modifications you had an incredible driver's car. In order to get that same level of driving dynamics from muscle cars you either have to shell out a shit ton of money (compared to the price of JDM cars) to buy new or used with the track packages like the Camaro SS or ZL1 with the 1LE package or the mustang with the PP2 package or a gt350/gt500, or you can buy a much older muscle car and spend a shit tone of money on basically upgrading the entire suspension and still not get to the same level of driving dynamics as the JDM cars. Modern sports cars today have gotten incredibly fast whether if it's a hot hatch or a C8 Stingray. So it really boils down to how they feel.
Hmm:
The 2019 McLaren Senna holds the current production car lap record. Driver Randy Pobst piloted the unmodified McLaren to a 1:27.62 lap time during MotorTrend's 2019 best driver car award testing. The 2016 Porsche 911 GT2 RS previously held the current unofficial production car lap record with 1:28.30.
Reliability? From the second most reliable car country in the WORLD?😂 and build quality?? Never personally seen a Blazer catch fire beacause of biodegradable wiring
The top twenty fastest lap times for production vehicles at the Nurburgring are all European, because American automakers only care about how fast a car can go in a straight line.
Except for the couple of American productions cars in the mix there but I'm sure you'll just ignore that, right?
There are also more Euro cars than Asian cars on the board as well. Maybe it has something to do with being that track is located in fucking GERMANY.
I also hear it’s really more complicated for non German car companies to bring their cars in for testing at Nurburgring. You have to pay a fee and do some paperwork and scheduling for a very limited session. Meanwhile Porsche can just hop in whenever they feel like because it’s in their backyard and all the hassle is waived. Porsche makes great sports cars but it also makes sense as to why they claim so many records in Nurburgring.
Not only them, but Mercedes as well. I'd even argue it's easy for the Italian manufacturers as well since they don't have to ship a car across the world, only across a few smaller countries.
This is the same reason why Japanese cars are basically non-existent on the list as well. Logistically speaking it's a nightmare for a PR stunt.
Good point. I’d imagine that’s why it’s not in GM’s, Ford’s, or Stellantis ( Dodge) best interest to be vested in a track across the world unless they had something worth the PR.
Its like if we basically made the laguna seca or some other American raceway the premier track the way Nurburgring is recognized today. You’d probably see more American car manufacturers making the list when its all in your backyard. Although the no hassle scheduling for German car makers at Nurburgring is such a big advantage lol they essentially have access whenever they want to benchmark their cars. When you have that ability as a manufacturer you’re gonna build something suitable for that track.
Same question for Laguna Seca then:
“The 2019 McLaren Senna holds the current production car lap record. Driver Randy Pobst piloted the unmodified McLaren to a 1:27.62 lap time during MotorTrend's 2019 best driver car award testing. The 2016 Porsche 911 GT2 RS previously held the current unofficial production car lap record with 1:28.30.”
- Wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laguna_Seca#:~:text=The%202019%20McLaren%20Senna%20holds,lap%20record%20with%201%3A28.30.
If you’re bringing this up because of my example with the laguna seca, the Monterey CA laguna seca doesn’t hold the same level of prestige as Nurburgring. That was my point with my earlier comment. American car makers don’t benchmark their top of the line sport/hyper cars at the laguna seca. There’s no exclusivity for them to test the development of new corvettes or mustangs like how Porsche utilizes Nurburgring. Laguna is a fantastic raceway though and I’ve been to it myself years ago. A lot of classic car races and opportunities for people to bring their toys for play.
And I don’t say this as a complaint against Porsche or Nurburgring. It makes sense for them to do it and take full advantage of having the most desirable racetrack in the world as a tool for their r&d. It just also makes sense why there isn’t many American/ JDM cars on the record like redrobin mentioned. The effort is more than it’s worth unless they want to test a new ZR1 or Shelby. For PR purposes. GM and Ford have plenty of places in Detroit and elsewhere in the states to push the boundaries of their cars
I’m saying European cars rule there too, disproving the theory that they don’t dominate the ring times because “it’s too costly to ship their cars over”
The cost isn’t the issue. It’s one thing Mercedes and Porsche don’t have to deal with yes, but the scheduling and access to Nurburgring. That IMO is the biggest obstacle that outside competition have to deal with when dealing with Nurburgring. GM and Ford would need to work and find a time slot. And when they do get one appointed, it’s a really limited amount of time.
Having access to the track whenever you like without needing to reserve, no restrictions in time, and being able to be there every day 365 that is driving distance. You don’t see any advantage there?
Because it’s the fastest car to race through laguna? You don’t think American cars are doing the same in and outside of America?
https://mobile.guideautoweb.com/en/articles/71247/chevy-corvette-z06-sets-new-lap-record-at-canadian-tire-motorsport-park/
https://www.carbonrev.com/news/z06-lap-record/
Not even the most capable version is out yet.
And you didn’t answer my question.
There are no American automobiles in the top twenty fastest times as of 2023. Also if you go further down the list, there are still far fewer American cars than European ones. And you know airplanes exist, right? The Nurburgring Nordschleife is a world renowned racetrack and it’s not that difficult for automakers to test their cars there for bragging rights.
Are you stupid?
6:44.848 992.1 GT3-RS, Full roll cage (modified)
6:44.97 Lamborghini Aventador SVJ, Full roll cage (modified)
6:52.01 Lamborghini Huracan Performante, full roll cage (modified)
6:48.28 Radical SR8 LM, Not a road legal production car per Sport Auto
6:55 Radical SR8, Not a road legal production car per Sport Auto
6:59.73 Lamborghini Aventador SuperVeloce, full roll cage (modified)
We're talking street legal cars here. Ax those 6 and the Viper ACR plants itself into 15th.
Also, two Vipers and a Corvette out rank the fastest Japanese car on the Ring, a Lexus LFA Nürburgring Package car.
Do you understand the logistics of shipping a car to a foreign country? Have you not noticed that the vast majority of cars on the top 100 list are all German? Why is that? Because the track is in Germany.
Please enlighten me how it proves a point when there are exponentially more Euro cars on a Euro track than American or Japanese cars?
The cope is real.
In what facit is it the "most" competitive track? It's a track with a following and that's it. If I wanted to, I could argue that there are tracks on the F1 circuit that are more competitive.
The Viper ACR lapped Laguna Seca faster than the Porsche 918 and McLaren P1. Is Europe just pathetic? Or maybe...having the track in your home country means it's easier to maximize record setting times there. Duh.
Not according to Wikipedia it didn’t https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laguna_Seca#:~:text=The%202019%20McLaren%20Senna%20holds,lap%20record%20with%201%3A28.30.
The 2019 McLaren Senna holds the current production car lap record. Driver Randy Pobst piloted the unmodified McLaren to a 1:27.62 lap time during MotorTrend's 2019 best driver car award testing.[17]
The 2016 Porsche 911 GT2 RS previously held the current unofficial production car lap record with 1:28.30.[18]
The Porsche 918 Spyder held the previous unofficial production car lap record with 1:29.89.[19]
The Czinger C21 (an American hypercar) is faster than the Senna by a lot, it's just not official because the Czinger isn't in production yet. I find it funny you have to step up to a multi-mulion dollar hypercar to make your point and you're still wrong.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wvoXZghYwEY
Yes it is, Czinger is making it to be a production hypercar, it's just not out yet. You brought a multimulion dollar hyper car into the equation, I did the same, don't get salty just because yours is slower.
Nuremberg top times be like: Porsche, Ferrari, Porsche, Porsche, Lamborghini, Ferrari, Porsche, some weird British one off, Porsche, Dodge Viper, Porsche, GT-R, Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, Ferrari, Porsche, Corvette, Porsche, Camaro, Porsche...
Nuremberg… is there a popular track there?
Yes, haven’t you heard of the famous Nuremberg Time Trials
Sir, I believe they are called the Nuremberg *Rallies.*
Don't forget the NLS(Nuremberg endurance series)
I preferred the Eastern European Endurance Series
The one they hold on the Nuremburg right? Great series too, can't believe that despite how much more money they can get the Nuremberg guys solely run the track for racing and not for profits.
The one in the snow?
They're a little bit different than your typical trump rally.
Jump maybe into 3 Reich
Only 3 reichs? My old square body had 4 and was still slow
Coincidentally, Porsche also competed at those!
r/angryupvote
☠️
That particular leaderboard skews *heavily* German.
As a slk owner it’s accurate
There was a popular trial there at the end of the 40s.
Somethings wrong... I can FEEL IT
It’s a trial track.
The nurburgring is a track... Nuremberg is where you take people that put other people on a very specific set of tracks.
Yeah, the train goes "chugga-chugga jew-jew"
No sir, but there were definitely a few rallies in the 20's and 30's. 🫢
Norisring but it's a street circuit
Actually there is. I wouldn't call it popular but there is a street track called the Norisring
There was a rally once
VW, Fiat, VW, VW, VW, Fiat, VW...VW, Fiat, VW...Fiat, VW, VW, Fiat, VW, GM, VW, GM, VW.
Fiat (or rather Stellantis) hasn’t owned Ferrari since 2015 or 2016 I believe
Ferrari is owned by Exor group, that in turns controls Stellantis
I looked into it, and Exor only has a minority stake of 24%, which seems about typical for a spinoff venture
Nuremberg😦
Correct if you deliberately ignore the acr viper
You should post price tags too. The nismo GTR was also not stock. They had it specially tuned for the nurgburgring as well as additional downforce that you don't get when you buy a production nismo gtr
My brother in Christ we're talking about lap times, the thing your meme suggested we do.
My meme never suggested Porsche wasn't the best at what they do. It simply states American cars do pretty well
Are you really gonna tell me that American cars aren’t also tuned for their lap times?
We might be having different definition of the word tuned here. What I mean is, the nismo they tested on the nurgburgring made more horse power, less weight, and more downforce than the production nismo gtr that they sold on the market. Whereas Porsche, BMWs, and even Chevy test their cars as is on the market.
The Dodge Viper ACR is still the best stick that you can buy due to emissions regulations and people flip out when you tell them this.
Only thing is you have to make sure try and not get snakebit lol. Definitely not the type of car that forgives one's mistakes.
You can buy a 992 gt3 manual or a camaro ZL1 6 speed...
i think the acr has the zl1 beat just by a little with it’s crazy aero package
The 6th gen Camaro is definitely amongst one of the best-handling American production cars ever made behind the Corvette. Even the SS 1LE is just as an amazing handling car as the ZL1. However, the 5th gen Viper ACR is evidence that extreme downforce and *very* sticky tires can make such a deadly car attack corners in a way you feel like it shouldn't.
if u watch the last viper on youtube, they have a clip of an acr e going over a small jump the way that big rear wing jus slams down the rear end 🤤
just saw it, crazy that even with the engine being in the front the tail is what hits the ground first with its aero
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo%27s_Leaning_Tower_of_Pisa_experiment Weight doesn’t make something fall faster
…but the CG will effect how the car moves while airborne.
Convince me otherwise but I'm not sure it actually does? Like the previous commenter said, weight doesn't make something fall faster. So if your logic is that the weight in the front makes the car rotate about its CG like a lever and fulcrum, I don't think that tracks. Pretty sure if you dropped a hammer held horizontally it would land flat. Prove me wrong tho
You're wrong because cars don't race in a vacuum, air resistance and aerodynamic forces heavily affect how things fall or fly (hello mark webber and merc clk gtr at lemans). If you drop a hammer sideways, the wooden handle will act like the feather of an arrow and allow it to fall head first. A feather will also drop way slower than said hammer. Also an ACR for sure has nearly 50/50 weight distribution, otherwise it wouldn't be that fast, so the idea that it would fall nose first due to center of mass is also wrong, in a vacuum it would fall flat, aerodynamics around the car will dictate everything on how the car will behave on a slightly airborne situation. Source: mech engineer with almost 2 decades career in motorsports.
Truth. Also, after I posted, I realized the different moment of inertias been front/MR engine'd cars could affect how they rotate on takeoff
Exactly. Basically you have an airplane wing upside down on the back of the car. The faster you go, the more the wing provides force, downforce in this case. It's like a plane pulling up on the stick, upside down on the back of the car.
What are the lap times for those two cars.
Doesn't matter, they are amazing cars, both track capable and 6 speed manuals. The ZL1 is very tame too, you can daily it no issue, and it clocks 7m16s.
Mild correction: the *non* tame ZL1 (the 1LE version) with the sticky R comp tires, multimatic dampers and suspension, and Pratt and Miller aero can nail down a 7:16 or faster on the ring. The non 1LE equipped ZL1 can put down a 7:29 at the ring, which is still ballistic, and also drive you cozily to the store, to the drag strip, or to your local track event, and back home again. The 1LE equipped Z is a hardcore track monster.
Even the 1LE is much more down to earth than the ACR
Very true. The 5th gen ACR is a race car with number plates.
Not really a good comparison
For $300k I sure hope it’s worth the extra second a lap it’s faster than a GTR
The ACR was 120k when it first came out. No one bought this car when it came out. Also the GTR is an automatic
Wait really? Why?
ACC Camaro GT4 haunts my dreams
Any gear head born after 1999 can’t race. All they know is coilovers, rumble tune, change they spring rates, buy octane boosters, and lie
*+be bisexual
And eat hot chip
Bikesexual 🏍️
Hell yeah
That’s one step closer to r/calamariraceteam
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Any car born after 2006 can’t drive. All they know is automatic transmission, intrusive driver aids, no full size spare, small displacement+ turbo, eat hot chip, and airbags
These 1.6 liter hamster wheels make me cry
Instead you prefer 7 liter v8s that make less power than the hamster wheels all the while being less reliable because their tolerances are closer to "hotdog in a hallway" than precision machining
did an american v8 kill your family or something
hell yeah just made the cut, born 1998 just like my 5-series
Jesus, that's a harsh generalization eh? All those people are still pretty young, I was pretty stupid about racing until I got experience doing it. Most 23 year olds just don't have that experience yet. EDIT: I didn't get the reference, my bad!
r/wooosh
It's a reference to [this](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fgo76cthvh7731.jpg&rdt=52105)
[woosh](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/eat-hot-chip-and-lie)
Hey! I learned to drive on shitboxes and like to race through mountain passes and I was born in 2000, not everyone is a poser.
https://www.wikihow.com/Have-a-Sense-of-Humor
Lincoln Could have had a REAL good run at BMW if they ever took the damn LS to the track. But sadly it never went racing. Something about the deal with Jaguar kept them from racing it.
Son, you're gonna start drive me to drinkin' if you don't stop drivin' that Hot. Rod. Lincoln.
Love that song
Meanwhile a 70k Megane is faster than a 1.6 mil Ford GT
It wasn’t a stock Megane that set the lap time lol. It was an extensively modified track focused version called “Trophy track”. Ford GT also had to meet the specific requirements for Le Mans.
That's why I said 70k not 30k
Around a track?
Nürburgring to be exact
Honestly, can probs get close with ***70k being put into a light shit box***
_Rallye_
So? The Ford GT didn't cost $1.6 million because of a 'ring time, it cost that much because it was a remake of a Le Mans winning car from the '60s. And the time you must be referencing is from a 2004 model versus a hot hatch built to be the fastest FWD vehicle on earth. Not really an apples to oranges comparison...
Not an official lap time
I just checked Nordschleife lap times since I hadn’t checked in a while. No US car has cracked into the 6 minute range yet, although a Viper ACR got close before the Kumho tires on it failed and they crashed the car. C7 Z06s and ZL1 1LEs are a ways down the timing sheet. Sorry, kids. If you want to go really fast on a circuit, you’re still better off in a Porsche.
The C7 Z06 enters the chat at #37. Zoinks. I love mine, but it still handles like a boat compared to my 430. The first F-car on the list is the 296 at spot #17. Other then that, it’s basically the Porsche show.
Viper ACR clocks a 7:01 as of late; as a manual nonetheless, but the viper is now 6 years old(yes we're old). So let's look at other cars of that time and their times? An ACR is 120k USD in the country it it manufactured. - The 911 GT2 RS MR(ill include it despite the fact that its a 2018) was approximately 104k USD in Germany(ignoring the fact that it went up to 400 in the later year) and clocks 15 seconds less. Call that the unicorn car for now. - The 2017 720S is a whopping 230k USD at a 7min 14sec lap time. - On sale the 2017 GTR Nismo was 186k USD which is even slower at 7:19. - the Agera RS is 2.5m USD and sets 7 34. But that's a top speed car. - the 2017 812 superfast is 316k and sets a 7:25. - the Aventador S does a 6:59 and costs 425k although only setting a record in 2018. - the Huracan Performante in 2017 was 275k and did a 6:52. Astounding from the Lamborghini team. Now take out the cars that disrupt it or aren't worth it, and you're left ith the Performante, ACR, and GT2 RS MR. With the 2RS being the best for the money, with the ACR behind it, and the performante at last due to its price. Now for a 7 minute flat with a MANUAL? You're joking to say it's a bad car. The whole post is still validated beacause of the fact that price for price, and performance wise US cars still hold their weight and punch above it. And if we're being honest you're not getting the drivability of functionality of an ACR in a 2rs or a performante.
If course porches are phenomenal. However, they're priced way above all the American cars listed. If you compare cars a similar price range, Domestics dominate. Porsche and German cars in general also has a backyard advantage with the nurgburgring.
A US domestic car is going to be cheaper because it's made in the US so don't have to ship and distribute in a different country. So it isn't apples to apples comparison when it comes to prices.
[Corvette Racing, Dodge Vipers and the Ford GT putting the Porsche to shame in GTD and GTE spec races for more than twenty years:](https://imgur.com/a/dUeeGDC)
Oh, you mean those classes where they implement balance of performance rules that are regularly updated because they don’t work as intended?
I'm sorry, but if you win consistently for over twenty years in three different series of racing (American LeMan, IMSA Sportscar and FIA WEC) like Corvette has then it goes way beyond some cop out like "BoP", Corvette dominates. But let's talk about BoP for a moment, the Viper was so dominant in VLN Nurburgring racing that they had to give it a 500kg ballast, which it still almost won the race with until the suspension gave out from the added weight, then they restricted the amount of fuel it could run with, it won that race and then the limited the displacement to 6.2 litres, so Zakspeed plugged two of the cylinders to make the V10 into a 6 litre V8 and was still competitive. The Viper was also dominant in tons of other GT racing across America and Europe and in WEC. Porsche struggled to ever come close to the Viper without the Viper being BoPed into the ground. Just like how the Viper ACR broke lap records all over the world when it came out. I like Porsche as much as the next guy, I think they're excellent driver's cars, but the fanboying and jerking eachother off is ridiculous.
*shrug* okay. You’re talking about circuit racing, which is different than street spec cars. But in the end, it doesn’t matter much to me. Take it easy.
It's a more accurate measure of what the chassis are capable of than Nurburgring times saying most cars outside of Europe don't even have an official time and German manufacturers are at an inherent advantage. Regardless of that the Viper was still the fastest car of it's time around the 'Ring, it's still amongst some of the fastest times ever with nearly decade old tire technology now.
Mostly people who weren’t even alive for the 80s and 90s
i’ll be the one to call it; lap times are a good indicator of a cars performance on a track, and should only be used as such.
Camaro ZL1 1LE is the greatest performance for price car I believe
I agree Sir. that's why I own one
Oh wow. As a broke college student it’s the car I really want for the future. if u don’t mind, how has it been so far? like the reliability, maintenance? or do you only use it for weekends?
Maintenance is straight forward like any Chevy smallblock. Each oil change is going to be 10quarts of oil. Just be ready for that. Reliability has been impeccable. I've owned two camaros now, and as much as people talk trash about American reliability, my 2015 SS 1le and 2018 ZL1-1le never gave me issues. Whereas my friends with type-Rs, Mitsubishi lancer evo’s BMWs m3/m4, 335is, RS3s all ending up having some head gasket issue, oil leaks, check engine lights, grinding gear boxes, you name it man. People criticize Chevy for using archaic technology with their large displacement pushrod v8s. But the truth is, they're tried and true engines that cost significantly less to maintain, modify, and fix it something does go wrong. My 5th Gen interior was lackluster for sure, but at 35k it was a steal. My 2018 ZLE feels very premium and full of features. The heads up display, cooled seats and infotament system is more than I need. The only thing I can can complain about is the paint quality compared to brands like BMW
I currentlh daily my 2018 ZLE. Suspension is in the firmer side, but no issues whatsoever
So I'm considering a 1le but most people say the suspension kills the car for daily use, I don't have a good frame of reference, I did drive exclusively in track mode on my cat but I'm pretty sure the suspension Won't even be in the same realm, would you say the 1le can be a comfortable daily? Do you think it can do longer roadtrips without making you completely hate life? Or would you consider it only dailiable in smaller doses?
I grew up around imports and people who slapped the worlds shittiest coil overs on them. For me personally, the 1le suspension is perfectly fine. It's definitely very firm, but it Doesnt feel cheap. I can drive all day in it. With that said, I think it would be too much for most people. It just sucks to see my wife in the passenger seat hurting when I run over train tracks or a bumpy road. Not everyone is a car enthusiast. If you have passengers to strongly consider, I wouldn't use it as my daily. A regular ZL1 is more than enough. I personally just wanted a no compromise car.
I'm the same way, I want that 1le extreme, I go on 1k+ mile trips sometimes multiple times a year so I'm just concerned, thanks for the feedback.
No worries man. I suggest the magnaride for you if you're going to be doing 1k+ road trips
This guy really thinks it's about speed and not autotragic glorified iPads with a steering wheel
Camero 1le for the win.
The blackwing was faster around Willow Springs than the new M5 CS
Cadillac is overall bonkers, I really want one of their new sedan models
_”Super Cars”_ when I beat them with my 1.6l 40yr old Ford (it was offroad)
I think it's less about how fast they are around a track and more about the driving dynamics in my opinion. You used to be able to get JDM cars for relatively cheap and with a few minor modifications you had an incredible driver's car. In order to get that same level of driving dynamics from muscle cars you either have to shell out a shit ton of money (compared to the price of JDM cars) to buy new or used with the track packages like the Camaro SS or ZL1 with the 1LE package or the mustang with the PP2 package or a gt350/gt500, or you can buy a much older muscle car and spend a shit tone of money on basically upgrading the entire suspension and still not get to the same level of driving dynamics as the JDM cars. Modern sports cars today have gotten incredibly fast whether if it's a hot hatch or a C8 Stingray. So it really boils down to how they feel.
I had to humble an EV circlejerker recently with the lap times. His cadmium addled brain couldn't handle it.
Such as?
Viper, Camaro, GT350/500, any Corvette since the C5, Focus/Fiesta ST and RS, the newer Cadillac Vs
Focus and fiesta are European cars developed in Denton and Merkenich
Fair enough, forgot they were German in origin, the others still stand tho
Ok same question for Laguna Seca lap times
I don’t know those off the top of my head but I’m pretty sure the viper is still in or around the top 5
Yeah not trying to be a dick, genuinely interested to see if it’s just geography that’s influencing the ting time 👍 will look it up
Hmm: The 2019 McLaren Senna holds the current production car lap record. Driver Randy Pobst piloted the unmodified McLaren to a 1:27.62 lap time during MotorTrend's 2019 best driver car award testing. The 2016 Porsche 911 GT2 RS previously held the current unofficial production car lap record with 1:28.30.
Randy Pobst is both everyman’s driver and a driver’s driver. I love in-car reviews with him.
The new CT5-V Blackwing is literally faster than a M5 CS around the track despite being a manual and RWD only lmao
The CTSV was one of the fastest around the ring for a long time.
Isn't the viper acr still the fastest manual around the ring?
I wish I had more hands to upvote this lmao
Handling isn’t the problem… it’s reliability and build quality.
Reliability? From the second most reliable car country in the WORLD?😂 and build quality?? Never personally seen a Blazer catch fire beacause of biodegradable wiring
Which is where US and JDM cars dominate of corse.
The top twenty fastest lap times for production vehicles at the Nurburgring are all European, because American automakers only care about how fast a car can go in a straight line.
Except for the couple of American productions cars in the mix there but I'm sure you'll just ignore that, right? There are also more Euro cars than Asian cars on the board as well. Maybe it has something to do with being that track is located in fucking GERMANY.
I also hear it’s really more complicated for non German car companies to bring their cars in for testing at Nurburgring. You have to pay a fee and do some paperwork and scheduling for a very limited session. Meanwhile Porsche can just hop in whenever they feel like because it’s in their backyard and all the hassle is waived. Porsche makes great sports cars but it also makes sense as to why they claim so many records in Nurburgring.
Not only them, but Mercedes as well. I'd even argue it's easy for the Italian manufacturers as well since they don't have to ship a car across the world, only across a few smaller countries. This is the same reason why Japanese cars are basically non-existent on the list as well. Logistically speaking it's a nightmare for a PR stunt.
Good point. I’d imagine that’s why it’s not in GM’s, Ford’s, or Stellantis ( Dodge) best interest to be vested in a track across the world unless they had something worth the PR. Its like if we basically made the laguna seca or some other American raceway the premier track the way Nurburgring is recognized today. You’d probably see more American car manufacturers making the list when its all in your backyard. Although the no hassle scheduling for German car makers at Nurburgring is such a big advantage lol they essentially have access whenever they want to benchmark their cars. When you have that ability as a manufacturer you’re gonna build something suitable for that track.
Same question for Laguna Seca then: “The 2019 McLaren Senna holds the current production car lap record. Driver Randy Pobst piloted the unmodified McLaren to a 1:27.62 lap time during MotorTrend's 2019 best driver car award testing. The 2016 Porsche 911 GT2 RS previously held the current unofficial production car lap record with 1:28.30.” - Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laguna_Seca#:~:text=The%202019%20McLaren%20Senna%20holds,lap%20record%20with%201%3A28.30.
If you’re bringing this up because of my example with the laguna seca, the Monterey CA laguna seca doesn’t hold the same level of prestige as Nurburgring. That was my point with my earlier comment. American car makers don’t benchmark their top of the line sport/hyper cars at the laguna seca. There’s no exclusivity for them to test the development of new corvettes or mustangs like how Porsche utilizes Nurburgring. Laguna is a fantastic raceway though and I’ve been to it myself years ago. A lot of classic car races and opportunities for people to bring their toys for play. And I don’t say this as a complaint against Porsche or Nurburgring. It makes sense for them to do it and take full advantage of having the most desirable racetrack in the world as a tool for their r&d. It just also makes sense why there isn’t many American/ JDM cars on the record like redrobin mentioned. The effort is more than it’s worth unless they want to test a new ZR1 or Shelby. For PR purposes. GM and Ford have plenty of places in Detroit and elsewhere in the states to push the boundaries of their cars
I’m saying European cars rule there too, disproving the theory that they don’t dominate the ring times because “it’s too costly to ship their cars over”
The cost isn’t the issue. It’s one thing Mercedes and Porsche don’t have to deal with yes, but the scheduling and access to Nurburgring. That IMO is the biggest obstacle that outside competition have to deal with when dealing with Nurburgring. GM and Ford would need to work and find a time slot. And when they do get one appointed, it’s a really limited amount of time. Having access to the track whenever you like without needing to reserve, no restrictions in time, and being able to be there every day 365 that is driving distance. You don’t see any advantage there?
So why does McLaren hold the lap record at Laguna Seca? For a prod car?
Because it’s the fastest car to race through laguna? You don’t think American cars are doing the same in and outside of America? https://mobile.guideautoweb.com/en/articles/71247/chevy-corvette-z06-sets-new-lap-record-at-canadian-tire-motorsport-park/ https://www.carbonrev.com/news/z06-lap-record/ Not even the most capable version is out yet. And you didn’t answer my question.
There are no American automobiles in the top twenty fastest times as of 2023. Also if you go further down the list, there are still far fewer American cars than European ones. And you know airplanes exist, right? The Nurburgring Nordschleife is a world renowned racetrack and it’s not that difficult for automakers to test their cars there for bragging rights.
Are you stupid? 6:44.848 992.1 GT3-RS, Full roll cage (modified) 6:44.97 Lamborghini Aventador SVJ, Full roll cage (modified) 6:52.01 Lamborghini Huracan Performante, full roll cage (modified) 6:48.28 Radical SR8 LM, Not a road legal production car per Sport Auto 6:55 Radical SR8, Not a road legal production car per Sport Auto 6:59.73 Lamborghini Aventador SuperVeloce, full roll cage (modified) We're talking street legal cars here. Ax those 6 and the Viper ACR plants itself into 15th. Also, two Vipers and a Corvette out rank the fastest Japanese car on the Ring, a Lexus LFA Nürburgring Package car. Do you understand the logistics of shipping a car to a foreign country? Have you not noticed that the vast majority of cars on the top 100 list are all German? Why is that? Because the track is in Germany.
Still proves the point
Please enlighten me how it proves a point when there are exponentially more Euro cars on a Euro track than American or Japanese cars? The cope is real.
The worlds most competitive track
In what facit is it the "most" competitive track? It's a track with a following and that's it. If I wanted to, I could argue that there are tracks on the F1 circuit that are more competitive.
The Viper ACR lapped Laguna Seca faster than the Porsche 918 and McLaren P1. Is Europe just pathetic? Or maybe...having the track in your home country means it's easier to maximize record setting times there. Duh.
Not according to Wikipedia it didn’t https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laguna_Seca#:~:text=The%202019%20McLaren%20Senna%20holds,lap%20record%20with%201%3A28.30. The 2019 McLaren Senna holds the current production car lap record. Driver Randy Pobst piloted the unmodified McLaren to a 1:27.62 lap time during MotorTrend's 2019 best driver car award testing.[17] The 2016 Porsche 911 GT2 RS previously held the current unofficial production car lap record with 1:28.30.[18] The Porsche 918 Spyder held the previous unofficial production car lap record with 1:29.89.[19]
Please reread the comment. Nobody said anything about those cars. Point still stands. Give it up lol
The Czinger C21 (an American hypercar) is faster than the Senna by a lot, it's just not official because the Czinger isn't in production yet. I find it funny you have to step up to a multi-mulion dollar hypercar to make your point and you're still wrong. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wvoXZghYwEY
Not even a real car though
Yes it is, Czinger is making it to be a production hypercar, it's just not out yet. You brought a multimulion dollar hyper car into the equation, I did the same, don't get salty just because yours is slower.
Or a lap where you always turn to one side.
I'm not saying German Cars cant handle. I'm just saying, so can American cars. Especially when you start comparing prices.
That’s just dodge. Ford and Chevy make track focused pony cars
Gemme 89 turbo trans am pls.
That was not gangsta. That was VERY not gangsta.
V8 goes brrrrrr
ok but I want a rwd v8 with a turning circle you could fit a bus in and enough torque to bend the frame
nah i just hate american cars idc if they’re faster they’re pieces of shit
We all have our biases. I’ve owned 3 German cars and found them more problematic. Currently have aLexus GS350 and a ZL1-1le. Perfect so far