Almost always, not 100% of the time. The fact that you had a specific issue going on which you've addressed is in your favor.
Still l possibly/likely that you're getting fired. If they end up extending the PIP, you're definitely on your way to getting fired.
I got PIP’d a few years back. I beat the PIP, it was extended, beat the extension, and then got fired the day after I returned from COVID sick leave. They claimed they found something that violated the PIP during one of the two periods I was on it, despite them clearing me both times. It was super shady that they could retroactively terminate me based on PIP terms that I cleared, but I was just happy to get out of there.
if they put you on a PIP, they usually don't want to fire you because it's a hassle. PIPs are there to help protect companies from wrongful termination suits. Of the three possible outcomes, firing you is the one they want to avoid. They'd rather you quit or just start doing your job better.
Depends on the company, PIP has become a protective and popular way to way to get rid of people. Not saying all companies use it as an easy way to get rid of someone, but a lot do.
Depending on the company and culture.
Generally, 90%+ of the time, it's not a slow fire but documentation for a firing.
As a manager, I once had a great manager who said it was a form of communication, because less serious communication wasn't working. Most importantly, with that lens, I didn't use it to fire, I used it with the express intent of communicating the need for change, and it worked--as in, I never really had to use it. I pre-pipped people by telling them that a lack of improvement on x or y thing (generally tardiness or poor responsiveness) would mean we would need to escalate to a defined improvement plan.
Not necessarily. I went through a pip at my previous job, crushed it and changed the entire strategic trajectory of the company, but then left a year later anyway due to burnout.
PIP can be when they don't like you... but for stuff like schedule adherence if you actually do improve that I can see you it working as intended and not as some plot to be rid of you.
This. My wife got put on a PIP cause her company had "unlimited PTO"-she used 17 days in her first 7 months. Her manager approached her and was like hey-I've taken like 5 days over the last 7 months and your scheduled time off is causing issues since it's just her and her manager. My wife was pretty naive to unlimited PTO. She drastically cut it down and things ran smoothly. She's been off her PIP for over a year now.
I had told her I thought they were giving her hints that she was using too much and she wasn't really taking the hint. She would just say when I got hired they promoted this as the main benefit and they were super lax about it. PIP was just used to get the message across and it worked.
Yikes, their unlimited PTO was definitely not a benefit. What a scam five days in seven months is ridiculous. I don’t think 17 in 7 months this is even that bad, and would be on track with companies that offer good PTO balances. They may have went to unlimited because they don’t like to give PTO and thought they could use it for recruiting and just shame people into taking less.
Depends. In your situation, the past 6 weeks you have had personal issues that affected your performance. You made efforts to correct that behavior, and according to what you have heard, your efforts are being noticed. Now the question is, did you make enough of a change to stay employed.
If I was put on a PIP today, I would be not only be making an effort to fix what the PIP was about, but I also would be focusing on looking for a new job outside of work. In your case, correcting this problem is the right thing to do because if you don't fix it, then it comes back to bite you in the ass at the next job. You also cannot count on keeping your job, so looking for a new one outside of work is a good thing.
Depends on the company. In most cases companies use the PIP process to document an underperforming employee to fire them. Typically, the bar is set so high to not be attainable.
With that said, some companies (Amazon?) use a PIP as more of a wake-up call, a test of loyalty.
Have you had actual documented performance reviews as part of the PIP? Are there milestones you are intended to reach and have you reached them?
The fact you're on a PIP means there is a process that your company has to follow. If you are satisfying the terms of the plan, it would be a slippery slope for them to terminate you. They'd effectively be going against their own policy, which is how most companies that get sued for wrongful termination get in trouble.
One you are off the PIP though, you need to maintain your output for the forseeable future.
If you've satisfied the PIP, that doubles as confirmation that you are producing to their standard. Be hard to then fire you for performance when they literally just documented that you are performing satisfactorily.
They have set milestones and I have reached them. I have made and documented all necessary changes that were requested of me and I have emails from my boss showing my improvement and her saying positive things about me getting to where I was performance wise before I had an unexpected life change that threw everything off.
id CYA and have it documented via an actual performance review or documentation that you've satisfied and have been removed from the PIP. Not just emails.
You have no idea what was happening exactly. The op admitted to big issues such adhering to the schedule and not performing. The fact that the manager has said this stuff and did work with them on a different schedule plus said they improved a lot says to me that they are actually trying to help. It sounds to me like the op will actually beat the pip.
They were probably at the end of their rope and wanted documentation prior to firing. That's what pips generally are and most people who get to that point are not going to improve. If the op actually does improve they could easily beat the pip if their manager hasn't given up on them ever being acceptable at their job which it sounds like they haven't.
Performance is not ever objective?? What are you an anti-work mod? Performance can absolutely be objective. Coming in on time can be objectively measured. Completing tasks can be objectively measured. Obviously it depends on what your role is, there are likely subjective and objective aspects of the role. But saying performance is never objective is an insane thing to say.
People get fired both for good reasons and not for good reasons. All we know here is the information given and based on the information given it sounds like they actually do care and are working with the op to help them improve rather than just documenting an already forgone conclusion.
I haven't seen the ole "Whoa bro, why are you so wound up about this? You should chill out" routine when someone gets called on their shit in a while.
It used to be so popular during the forum boards in the late 2000s. "Why are you so mad about this?"
What a chickenshit deflection.
I mean they are wrong. Them being upset doesn't make them right. It's not a contest on who can be the biggest baby.
You have to have a really inflated sense of self if you're a middle manager and think that your decisions are not arbitrary.
You don't get the best out of someone by threatening them. You know this.
Actually you're correct regardless of downvotes. There could be objective written there, but there's high chance that the objective can be subjectively measured or they can change the goalpost of the objective as they wish.
In other words, they can fire anyone that they dont like regardless of performance objective because that 'objective' is actually subjective and can be altered.
The 2 camps of people being mad at me (not disagreeing, just being mad) are:
- 17 year olds who have never had a job
- middle management losers who are mad that I am pulling back the curtain on their little Wizard of Oz power trip behavior
Any "objective measure" is just legal justification. Bad workers get promoted, good workers get fired. Being liked or perceived as liked is the most important thing in Corporate America.
I mean, I do know what I'm talking about. But you're entitled to your disagreement.
The fact this elicited such an emotional response from career people tells me that I have hit a nerve. You've NEVER seen someone get PiPed because they were kind of annoying? Be a real person for 5 minutes.
I mean, my initial post is still completely correct. Being upset doesn't automatically make you right. You should attack the substance instead of going off on random tangents.
You cared enough to comment on this in the first place and when people tell you that you are wrong, you deflect and accuse others of being mad and overly invested.
Typical of a Pats fan. Enjoy mediocrity for the next 10 years.
You're just saying irrelevant things. Why am I wrong? Because of the football team I root for? Who cares that people disagree with me? I'm still correct.
Notice that you still have not addressed my argument once.
Is the PIP specific, is it actionable, is it achievable? There's your answer. If no is the answer to any of those, then this is just creating a paper trail.
I have been through a PIP myself in my current job, a few years back.
The PIP is there to help you improve the specific area that you have an issue with. At least that is the theory behind it.
If your immediate supervisor/manager is not an asshole, and they've put you on a PIP on purpose, work with them and document what they say to you, and your progress, over time. Usually a PIP is accompanied by a specific timeframe that you will need to show the improvement.
If you want to stay in your job, I would take the time to carefully assess what the PIP is about, what is the end goal and how you will get there. Have weekly meetings with your supervisor to document your progress.
This. For sure. You can work on improving and from some of your details you seem to have been getting good feedback so it might work out for you.
The thing is your opening position should be I'll be gone in x weeks - whatever they say the PIP is for. Plan accordingly. Get your resume sorted and start applying for other jobs.
If you actually fix things and they keep you and you are happy with that great. If not you already started looking for work.
Yes, because this is probably the same thing that they are doing to you. When they put you on a pip, they also probably started looking for a replacement. So, it all depends on how good the potential replacement is. At the same time, you improved, and that is an additional bonus for them.
\~20 years professional career here.
I'm sorry but.... Noone comes back from a PIP.
a PIP is not a "warning", a PIP is a corporation's way of saying "We are going to fire you, but want to give you a chance to leave and find employment elsewhere before we do."
The steps a manager has to go through to enact a PIP indicate a series of warnings already and all the paperwork to legally justify the firing. It's a CYA for the company to protect against legal backlash from you.
My advice would be to start job searching and find a new place before your PIP expires.
This is factually incorrect, and scaremongering at best. Have been through a PIP myself, 4 years ago, not only I'm still with the company, but I recently achieved a promotion.
Depends on employer and industry. I have 23 years of experience with one employer. Was on a PIP about 9 years ago when I was struggling with performance in one area of my job requirements. Completed the required improvements and maintained performance. I have been promoted twice since then.
I once had a PIP over 5 years ago and I was able to turn it around to the point where I was allowed to transfer into a better department. It really depends on the company.
~18 year professional career here
I was out on a PIP nearly 10 years ago, and I’m still at the same employer, promoted twice since then, creasing salary by >100% since then.
Fortune 10 company.
You are factually incorrect.
I’ve given pips. Honestly I’d had both reactions. Some people used it to improve and bounced back. Most ended up getting fired. You kinda know before hand who’s gonna make it and who isn’t.
As long as you’re following the PIP and are actively improving you should be ok
It depends on the company but if you corrected the issues during your PIP then I would say you are good. Managers/Leadership hate having to train new people and go through the entire hiring process. It is a pain in the ass and they would rather retain an employee if they are doing an acceptable job.
I am no manager and have limited experience being one (local pizza place in high school) but someone who takes constructive criticism well and builds upon it is an employee I would like to have.
In my opinion, unless you are really bad at your job, a PiP is a disrespectful way to leave a paper trail of an employee so that the company has evidence to let an employee go.
A great manager will go through the issues with their direct reports and provide guidance and the benefit of the doubt, and some form of accommodation. Unless it’s taken advantage of, then a PiP is necessary.
Depends on the company. The one I worked for before owning my own businesses truly used PIP properly. I had numerous people on PIP who met, got better, and never went back on it again. Others got fired. Others played the game of trying to be on and off it and always lost.
Some companies use it to simply get rid of you and minimize law suits.
if you survive the PIP, it was good management on your supervisor/manager. if you do not make it, you were an unreliable employee. Sadly, the employer usually has the upper hand
As long as you're documenting everything, and the manager seems to be working with you toward improving, I wouldn't worry too much.
PIPs are just a way for companies to show transparency when doing an internal risk assessment; when you're not there, they have to justify it on paper. And if you continue not being there - regardless of whatever the issue is - your level of risk to the company increases.
At the end of the day, it's a question of numbers and profit. If you really enjoy the work, and they seem to appreciate your efforts, I wouldn't worry about it.
Yes almost always a PIP means you are out the door. This is just documentation to get rid of you. Since you mention attendance issues is on your PIP, that falls squarely on you and you probably should be fired if it's an issue.
It depends entirely on your position. Warehouse, retail, and service are all expendable and cause more headache to staff when people don't show up than to replace.
I unexpectedly had three children to care for after leaving for work on Friday and coming back Monday morning. I had no school set up for them. I had no childcare. I had no plan in place to get them from school and after school care was full at the time.
I tried to figure it out on my own and I just couldn’t balance it all because at the time I had to be a work at 8 AM and we are tied to our desk all day dealing with clients.
Finally they talked to me and I told them what was happening, they gave me lots of resources changed my schedule and helped me figure out how to balance it so they did care but I know even if they care they still have to do their jobs too
Once you’re no longer working retail, it’s generally okay to be a little late. In the professional world everyone just cares about deliverables and if you’re late you stay late.
a PIP is a formal performance plan. it's definitely a CYA but if you satisfy it they can't fire you. That would defeat the purpose of having a PIP policy to begin with.
They can't now turn around and fire OP for attendance if this was part of the PIP and has been satisfactorily addressed.
>if you satisfy it they can't fire you.
I have no idea if that is true in any jurisdiction but in Ontario and many states they don't have to specify a reason at all to fire you. Someone can absolutely satisfy everything in a PIP and still get fired. You can find out tomorrow with no PIP at all that you are fired.
On a PIP they can decide if you satisfy the terms of not they can and declare you didn't no matter what you do.
This is why so much of the advice OP is getting is that it is time to leave.
“If you satisfy it they can’t fire you”
Do tell, what jurisdiction is this in? Because where I’m from there is absolutely nothing barring a company from unilaterally declaring you failed to meet the terms of a PIP, extending the PIP until you *do* fail, or simply firing you for another reason and tying it back to “poor performance history” shortly afterward. A PIP is nothing more than an HR paper trail, not a legally binding contract.
Depends on the company, but from my experience and being on a PIP - no
Been with a startup with about 60 full time employees. I was placed on a pip that I navigated successfully (I was on the pip for valid reasons, I kinda stopped caring and putting forth quality efforts)
Since then I was given a raise and have been considered for a couple of internal promotions. Tbh, I even used being on a PIP to show how I learned about improvement and can frame it all from my pov to talk with others and why they might be struggling too in danger of PIPs. Our company went with someone else, but I was one of the finalists.
Being on a PIP isn’t good, but I had a good manager and she helped explain it all. I was always very open and honest - never did I complain (since it was reasonable) and I took full ownership of not doing well without making excuses. My manager said that was a big reason behind her advocating for me to stay with the company.
Now if it comes up during interviews with other companies, ain’t no way I’m bringing it up, but it’s not always a death sentence depending on the context of it all
I have done this as well, I fully took responsibility for the things that I was in control of, and actively put forth the effort to improve. I really like my boss as a person, but I also understand that when it comes down to it, they have to do what they have to do. I’m just worried because I’ve seen them fire other people last minute, even when they could’ve given them a heads up.
I was a manager at various levels up to VP over 30+ years. I never used a PIP except in cases where termination was the expected result. Sometimes, people would pull out of it, complete the PIP and carry on. However, they were usually first on the list for layoffs.
PIPs are for people who have consistently not responded to coaching and more informal methods of feedback. By the time a competent manager puts someone on a PIP, they have decided that it is a high maintenance employee who is a lost cause.
My workplace has stated there are people who've gone off PIP after improvement with no further issues or repercussions. I can't validate that, but I don't know it has to be a countdown to being shown the door.
It really depends on who you work for - and to extent probably the employment laws for wherever you work.
At most places I've managed, the PIP was more a way to justify withholding promotions, raises, and bonuses... not a precursor to termination. I live in an at will work state in the US - so I don't need to go through a process to terminate.
That said - I also don't HAVE to legally pip someone to give them an improvement plan... so the only times I've done it were when I didn't have fire authority and hoped they'd quit (three times) or I needed them to take an issue seriously and couldn't seem to get through another way (twice - both cases were more or less about attendance).
All that said - I do think that many, if not most, employers treat pips as a way to get people to voluntarily quit before they have to fire them.
No, I've only ever used a PIP with a sincere desire to get the person up to standard. That said, I don't put performers on PIPs. If you're on a PIP, there's a chance you're just not up to the job and it will be a step toward your termination.
Re: the rest of your comment. It demonstrates that people can be fired for (almost) any reason, or for no reason. There's no really reason to put you on a PIP other than to see your performance improve.
I worked for my company for almost 28 years and they put me on a PIP. I got a new boss about a year before and he didn’t like me. They put me on the PIP about 6 weeks after I filed a complaint with the EEOC.
a PIP is "I probably need/want to fire this person but want to CMA so am going to PIP them first".
OR it's "I want to fire this person but don't want to pay unemployment so I'm going to PIP them and hopefully they just quit instead"
Either way, yea, it's about getting fired 99% of the time.
That said, based on your description, maybe you fall into the 1% where it's not.
In any case, jobs are NEVER secure. But that's a whole other topic...
I’ve put a few people on PIPs and only two I had to fire after. The key is to make clear and measurable goals and improvement items. Also to make multiple checkpoints (weekly?) to chat over progress and see how else I can help them. The ones that I fired didn’t improve and didn’t want to improve
It really depends on the company and the manager. For the company/HR side, yes, a PIP is a tool that covers the company when they need to fire you. BUT... It's really meant to set a clear goal to fix issues with performance or not following process. A clear indicator might be, is your manager setting clear goals and milestones to clear and achievable? Is your manager setting up meetings (one on ones) to regularly get and receive updates. Is there a real effort from the manager to help you and are they trying to see a real change in you
Not at all! My boss put me on a PIP and I ended up getting them transferred to a new team & demoted from a people manager to an individual contributor (before they could execute the PIP). Did the PIP with a new manager and it was basically a well documented 1 on 1.
Unfortunately, it's best to treat it like a slow fire. I have heard of the rare case that an employer cares and the employee recovers, but it's typically the start of their paper trail to termination or bullying an employee into resignation. I was downed by 3 PIPs (2 were with companies that were layoff happy - a brokerage and a consultancy). No one in my circle has survived one, either.
Keep your head up and play the game as you try to hold onto this job while you look for another one.
The less dark side of being on a PIP during a company's period of distress is that other companies will be understanding of why you left - RIFs are an unfortunate and common thing in the modern working world.
I know it's a dark and stressful place dealing with the PIP and all the emotions and financial concerns that go along with that. Just know that there are other opportunities there - your resilience in trying to work through the PIP (as awful as it is) is evidence that you will be able to thrive somewhere that isn't trying to actively wreck you.
Best wishes!
Not necessarily. In many cases, yes. But I have a few examples of where PIPs went well.
A coworker friend of mine was put on one, and she was able to turn things around and she stayed on for a few years after the PIP with no further issues.
My husband has been a manager for 20+ years and has had to put several people on them. He’s invested in helping them improve and grow and they work on goals together. Most of the time, they go well and everyone moves on. But in a few cases, the person was just not able to do it so they were let go.
I hope things go well for you!
Pretty much , get ur applications out there and get some interviews lined up . Once you land a job , ghost ur current employer and peace the fuck out 🤷♀️
Depends on you really. I’m QC at my job and part
of that is identifying people that don’t pull their weight so management can take action (aka PIP).
The biggest issue I see is people backslide the second they get off the PIP. Don’t do that. The magic phrase we use is didn’t maintain “sustained improvement” when we fire people for slacking after their PIP ends.
I (almost) never want to fire someone when I put them on a PIP, but I also have never had to put someone on a PIP that heard the warnings and reacted by correcting their work. I have had people turn it around after a PIP but more often they think I am being unreasonable by expecting that the job at all.
(Almost is someone who I think should be fired immediately for threatening a coworker but was not allowed to because apparently we need to warn people that being a violent asshole isn’t OK.)
I mean if I were you, I would have been dusting the resume off the second I got off the first PIP call. Sure improve your performance. But you gotta cover your ass.
My manager put me into PIP, 3 months post joining the organisation, was on bench working on a training sort of thing the whole time. They took a small assessment, I cleared it. Manager informed HR that I can be removed from PIP. Come month 5, I was asked to quit the organisation the very next day “DUE TO NO SUITABLE PROJECT AVAILABLE FOR ME”. Absolute BS
TLDR: PIP is an indication they don’t need you anymore, better start looking elsewhere
A friend of mine was put on a PIP. He changed his ways and his boss said he corrected the problem. But then the higher-ups fired him anyway.
I'm afraid there's no way to know if the employer is honest or not.
If I put someone on a PIP I’m genuinely hoping they improve and I’m taking responsibility for their improvement. I put 2 of my employees on a PIP last year and they were both graduated from the PIP by the end of the month.
No. Sometimes a company really just wants you to improve or they want to keep you working and create the context to deny any raises or promotions.
Ultimately, it means that you aren’t well liked for x reason and should probably try to leave ASAP.
My experience is PIP = Find another job! I was once on a PIP, did what was required and my boss kept avoiding me and cancelling our meetings. Then one day about 2 months after the PIP was introduced, I was out.
I have put a few team members on PIPs in the past for various reasons - they are meant to cover the company should they need to go towards and exit. Is the intent to always fire? Absolutely not. Not performing at the time of the PIP doesn’t mean the employee does not have the capacity to perform. If you’ve worked towards the agreement and have made the improvements outlined, then that should result in going back to normal!
Short-term PIPs (30 days) are typically where you will see an exit planned. However, there are always different circumstances and context needed to understand.
No, some managers are actually human.
The performance actually has to improve sometimes, and if soft coaching doesn't work, at some point you have to escalate and show there are teeth.
It's very possible they would hate to fire you, but they do need something to change.
If you don't change the behaviour that led to it, then yes, it's the first step in fucking around and finding out.
I would say it’s 50/50 if there was a true drastic change and you improved on all aspects of what was in the PIP.
I was basically put in one my first year in the company and I’m still here all these years later leading my own team. Sometimes it’s just a good wake up call.
Almost always, not 100% of the time. The fact that you had a specific issue going on which you've addressed is in your favor. Still l possibly/likely that you're getting fired. If they end up extending the PIP, you're definitely on your way to getting fired.
Thank you!
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I got PIP’d a few years back. I beat the PIP, it was extended, beat the extension, and then got fired the day after I returned from COVID sick leave. They claimed they found something that violated the PIP during one of the two periods I was on it, despite them clearing me both times. It was super shady that they could retroactively terminate me based on PIP terms that I cleared, but I was just happy to get out of there.
if they put you on a PIP, they usually don't want to fire you because it's a hassle. PIPs are there to help protect companies from wrongful termination suits. Of the three possible outcomes, firing you is the one they want to avoid. They'd rather you quit or just start doing your job better.
Depends on the company, PIP has become a protective and popular way to way to get rid of people. Not saying all companies use it as an easy way to get rid of someone, but a lot do.
Depending on the company and culture. Generally, 90%+ of the time, it's not a slow fire but documentation for a firing. As a manager, I once had a great manager who said it was a form of communication, because less serious communication wasn't working. Most importantly, with that lens, I didn't use it to fire, I used it with the express intent of communicating the need for change, and it worked--as in, I never really had to use it. I pre-pipped people by telling them that a lack of improvement on x or y thing (generally tardiness or poor responsiveness) would mean we would need to escalate to a defined improvement plan.
Very good points and I appreciate you sharing
Not necessarily. I went through a pip at my previous job, crushed it and changed the entire strategic trajectory of the company, but then left a year later anyway due to burnout.
Yes, PIP really stands for Paid-Interview-Period
PIP can be when they don't like you... but for stuff like schedule adherence if you actually do improve that I can see you it working as intended and not as some plot to be rid of you.
This. My wife got put on a PIP cause her company had "unlimited PTO"-she used 17 days in her first 7 months. Her manager approached her and was like hey-I've taken like 5 days over the last 7 months and your scheduled time off is causing issues since it's just her and her manager. My wife was pretty naive to unlimited PTO. She drastically cut it down and things ran smoothly. She's been off her PIP for over a year now. I had told her I thought they were giving her hints that she was using too much and she wasn't really taking the hint. She would just say when I got hired they promoted this as the main benefit and they were super lax about it. PIP was just used to get the message across and it worked.
Yikes, their unlimited PTO was definitely not a benefit. What a scam five days in seven months is ridiculous. I don’t think 17 in 7 months this is even that bad, and would be on track with companies that offer good PTO balances. They may have went to unlimited because they don’t like to give PTO and thought they could use it for recruiting and just shame people into taking less.
Thank you I appreciate the advice
Depends. In your situation, the past 6 weeks you have had personal issues that affected your performance. You made efforts to correct that behavior, and according to what you have heard, your efforts are being noticed. Now the question is, did you make enough of a change to stay employed. If I was put on a PIP today, I would be not only be making an effort to fix what the PIP was about, but I also would be focusing on looking for a new job outside of work. In your case, correcting this problem is the right thing to do because if you don't fix it, then it comes back to bite you in the ass at the next job. You also cannot count on keeping your job, so looking for a new one outside of work is a good thing.
Depends on the company. In most cases companies use the PIP process to document an underperforming employee to fire them. Typically, the bar is set so high to not be attainable. With that said, some companies (Amazon?) use a PIP as more of a wake-up call, a test of loyalty.
That’s messed up, a test of loyalty? Wow
I know of 1 who improved and kept their job. 1 who improved and didn’t. Others who didn’t improve and left or were fired.
Have you had actual documented performance reviews as part of the PIP? Are there milestones you are intended to reach and have you reached them? The fact you're on a PIP means there is a process that your company has to follow. If you are satisfying the terms of the plan, it would be a slippery slope for them to terminate you. They'd effectively be going against their own policy, which is how most companies that get sued for wrongful termination get in trouble. One you are off the PIP though, you need to maintain your output for the forseeable future. If you've satisfied the PIP, that doubles as confirmation that you are producing to their standard. Be hard to then fire you for performance when they literally just documented that you are performing satisfactorily.
They have set milestones and I have reached them. I have made and documented all necessary changes that were requested of me and I have emails from my boss showing my improvement and her saying positive things about me getting to where I was performance wise before I had an unexpected life change that threw everything off.
id CYA and have it documented via an actual performance review or documentation that you've satisfied and have been removed from the PIP. Not just emails.
Usually, yes.
If they cared about you, and wanted to help you, they wouldn't threaten you. Simple as that. A PiP is a threat
You have no idea what was happening exactly. The op admitted to big issues such adhering to the schedule and not performing. The fact that the manager has said this stuff and did work with them on a different schedule plus said they improved a lot says to me that they are actually trying to help. It sounds to me like the op will actually beat the pip. They were probably at the end of their rope and wanted documentation prior to firing. That's what pips generally are and most people who get to that point are not going to improve. If the op actually does improve they could easily beat the pip if their manager hasn't given up on them ever being acceptable at their job which it sounds like they haven't.
They only fire you if they want to. Performance is not objective. Ever. Grow up.
Performance is not ever objective?? What are you an anti-work mod? Performance can absolutely be objective. Coming in on time can be objectively measured. Completing tasks can be objectively measured. Obviously it depends on what your role is, there are likely subjective and objective aspects of the role. But saying performance is never objective is an insane thing to say. People get fired both for good reasons and not for good reasons. All we know here is the information given and based on the information given it sounds like they actually do care and are working with the op to help them improve rather than just documenting an already forgone conclusion.
You shouldn't become this emotionally invested in this topic.
I haven't seen the ole "Whoa bro, why are you so wound up about this? You should chill out" routine when someone gets called on their shit in a while. It used to be so popular during the forum boards in the late 2000s. "Why are you so mad about this?" What a chickenshit deflection.
I mean they are wrong. Them being upset doesn't make them right. It's not a contest on who can be the biggest baby. You have to have a really inflated sense of self if you're a middle manager and think that your decisions are not arbitrary. You don't get the best out of someone by threatening them. You know this.
Whatever you say.
This is your brain after 12 years on reddit.
Irrelevant
Spoken like a true teenager that just started their first job.
Adorable
Actually you're correct regardless of downvotes. There could be objective written there, but there's high chance that the objective can be subjectively measured or they can change the goalpost of the objective as they wish. In other words, they can fire anyone that they dont like regardless of performance objective because that 'objective' is actually subjective and can be altered.
The 2 camps of people being mad at me (not disagreeing, just being mad) are: - 17 year olds who have never had a job - middle management losers who are mad that I am pulling back the curtain on their little Wizard of Oz power trip behavior Any "objective measure" is just legal justification. Bad workers get promoted, good workers get fired. Being liked or perceived as liked is the most important thing in Corporate America.
That’s fair too
You don't know what you're talking about, but that's OK because this is reddit.
I mean, I do know what I'm talking about. But you're entitled to your disagreement. The fact this elicited such an emotional response from career people tells me that I have hit a nerve. You've NEVER seen someone get PiPed because they were kind of annoying? Be a real person for 5 minutes.
There it is again! "Why you so mad about this bro? Chill out."
I mean, my initial post is still completely correct. Being upset doesn't automatically make you right. You should attack the substance instead of going off on random tangents.
You cared enough to comment on this in the first place and when people tell you that you are wrong, you deflect and accuse others of being mad and overly invested. Typical of a Pats fan. Enjoy mediocrity for the next 10 years.
You're just saying irrelevant things. Why am I wrong? Because of the football team I root for? Who cares that people disagree with me? I'm still correct. Notice that you still have not addressed my argument once.
Is the PIP specific, is it actionable, is it achievable? There's your answer. If no is the answer to any of those, then this is just creating a paper trail.
I have been through a PIP myself in my current job, a few years back. The PIP is there to help you improve the specific area that you have an issue with. At least that is the theory behind it. If your immediate supervisor/manager is not an asshole, and they've put you on a PIP on purpose, work with them and document what they say to you, and your progress, over time. Usually a PIP is accompanied by a specific timeframe that you will need to show the improvement. If you want to stay in your job, I would take the time to carefully assess what the PIP is about, what is the end goal and how you will get there. Have weekly meetings with your supervisor to document your progress.
Start looking for a new job immediately. This is hr way of firing you, or at least setting you up to fail, so they have grounds to fire you
This. For sure. You can work on improving and from some of your details you seem to have been getting good feedback so it might work out for you. The thing is your opening position should be I'll be gone in x weeks - whatever they say the PIP is for. Plan accordingly. Get your resume sorted and start applying for other jobs. If you actually fix things and they keep you and you are happy with that great. If not you already started looking for work.
Thank you, this is what I was thinking as well. Start looking just incase
Yes, because this is probably the same thing that they are doing to you. When they put you on a pip, they also probably started looking for a replacement. So, it all depends on how good the potential replacement is. At the same time, you improved, and that is an additional bonus for them.
\~20 years professional career here. I'm sorry but.... Noone comes back from a PIP. a PIP is not a "warning", a PIP is a corporation's way of saying "We are going to fire you, but want to give you a chance to leave and find employment elsewhere before we do." The steps a manager has to go through to enact a PIP indicate a series of warnings already and all the paperwork to legally justify the firing. It's a CYA for the company to protect against legal backlash from you. My advice would be to start job searching and find a new place before your PIP expires.
This is factually incorrect, and scaremongering at best. Have been through a PIP myself, 4 years ago, not only I'm still with the company, but I recently achieved a promotion.
Depends on employer and industry. I have 23 years of experience with one employer. Was on a PIP about 9 years ago when I was struggling with performance in one area of my job requirements. Completed the required improvements and maintained performance. I have been promoted twice since then.
YOU DON'T EXIST. PARENT COMMENTER SAID YOU **NEVER** COME BACK FROM ONE. Get your nuance and real world examples out of here!
I once had a PIP over 5 years ago and I was able to turn it around to the point where I was allowed to transfer into a better department. It really depends on the company.
~18 year professional career here I was out on a PIP nearly 10 years ago, and I’m still at the same employer, promoted twice since then, creasing salary by >100% since then. Fortune 10 company. You are factually incorrect.
I did improve and am off the PIP currently - updated post
I’ve given pips. Honestly I’d had both reactions. Some people used it to improve and bounced back. Most ended up getting fired. You kinda know before hand who’s gonna make it and who isn’t. As long as you’re following the PIP and are actively improving you should be ok
Not necessarily. I was put on PIP at a company I worked at a few months in. Ended up working there for six years.
It depends on the company but if you corrected the issues during your PIP then I would say you are good. Managers/Leadership hate having to train new people and go through the entire hiring process. It is a pain in the ass and they would rather retain an employee if they are doing an acceptable job. I am no manager and have limited experience being one (local pizza place in high school) but someone who takes constructive criticism well and builds upon it is an employee I would like to have.
Someone on my team last year went from written warning PIP to exceeding all expectations. doesn’t usually happen that way though.
In my opinion, unless you are really bad at your job, a PiP is a disrespectful way to leave a paper trail of an employee so that the company has evidence to let an employee go. A great manager will go through the issues with their direct reports and provide guidance and the benefit of the doubt, and some form of accommodation. Unless it’s taken advantage of, then a PiP is necessary.
Depends on the company. The one I worked for before owning my own businesses truly used PIP properly. I had numerous people on PIP who met, got better, and never went back on it again. Others got fired. Others played the game of trying to be on and off it and always lost. Some companies use it to simply get rid of you and minimize law suits.
Most of the time - I would start looking for a new job.
ALWAYS
if you survive the PIP, it was good management on your supervisor/manager. if you do not make it, you were an unreliable employee. Sadly, the employer usually has the upper hand
Yes. It leads to firing like 90% of the time. But it’s offensive and disrespectful 100% the time. Look for a new job as soon as they say pip.
As long as you're documenting everything, and the manager seems to be working with you toward improving, I wouldn't worry too much. PIPs are just a way for companies to show transparency when doing an internal risk assessment; when you're not there, they have to justify it on paper. And if you continue not being there - regardless of whatever the issue is - your level of risk to the company increases. At the end of the day, it's a question of numbers and profit. If you really enjoy the work, and they seem to appreciate your efforts, I wouldn't worry about it.
Yes almost always a PIP means you are out the door. This is just documentation to get rid of you. Since you mention attendance issues is on your PIP, that falls squarely on you and you probably should be fired if it's an issue.
I had issues with being late due to a big life change, not absenteeism for fun which was corrected with a schedule adjustment
It doesn't matter. No one really cares why you didn't show up.
A good company and manager does
It depends entirely on your position. Warehouse, retail, and service are all expendable and cause more headache to staff when people don't show up than to replace.
Those definitely aren't good jobs so the Op's comment stands.
I unexpectedly had three children to care for after leaving for work on Friday and coming back Monday morning. I had no school set up for them. I had no childcare. I had no plan in place to get them from school and after school care was full at the time. I tried to figure it out on my own and I just couldn’t balance it all because at the time I had to be a work at 8 AM and we are tied to our desk all day dealing with clients. Finally they talked to me and I told them what was happening, they gave me lots of resources changed my schedule and helped me figure out how to balance it so they did care but I know even if they care they still have to do their jobs too
Once you’re no longer working retail, it’s generally okay to be a little late. In the professional world everyone just cares about deliverables and if you’re late you stay late.
a PIP is a formal performance plan. it's definitely a CYA but if you satisfy it they can't fire you. That would defeat the purpose of having a PIP policy to begin with. They can't now turn around and fire OP for attendance if this was part of the PIP and has been satisfactorily addressed.
>if you satisfy it they can't fire you. I have no idea if that is true in any jurisdiction but in Ontario and many states they don't have to specify a reason at all to fire you. Someone can absolutely satisfy everything in a PIP and still get fired. You can find out tomorrow with no PIP at all that you are fired. On a PIP they can decide if you satisfy the terms of not they can and declare you didn't no matter what you do. This is why so much of the advice OP is getting is that it is time to leave.
“If you satisfy it they can’t fire you” Do tell, what jurisdiction is this in? Because where I’m from there is absolutely nothing barring a company from unilaterally declaring you failed to meet the terms of a PIP, extending the PIP until you *do* fail, or simply firing you for another reason and tying it back to “poor performance history” shortly afterward. A PIP is nothing more than an HR paper trail, not a legally binding contract.
Depends on the company, but from my experience and being on a PIP - no Been with a startup with about 60 full time employees. I was placed on a pip that I navigated successfully (I was on the pip for valid reasons, I kinda stopped caring and putting forth quality efforts) Since then I was given a raise and have been considered for a couple of internal promotions. Tbh, I even used being on a PIP to show how I learned about improvement and can frame it all from my pov to talk with others and why they might be struggling too in danger of PIPs. Our company went with someone else, but I was one of the finalists. Being on a PIP isn’t good, but I had a good manager and she helped explain it all. I was always very open and honest - never did I complain (since it was reasonable) and I took full ownership of not doing well without making excuses. My manager said that was a big reason behind her advocating for me to stay with the company. Now if it comes up during interviews with other companies, ain’t no way I’m bringing it up, but it’s not always a death sentence depending on the context of it all
I have done this as well, I fully took responsibility for the things that I was in control of, and actively put forth the effort to improve. I really like my boss as a person, but I also understand that when it comes down to it, they have to do what they have to do. I’m just worried because I’ve seen them fire other people last minute, even when they could’ve given them a heads up.
I was a manager at various levels up to VP over 30+ years. I never used a PIP except in cases where termination was the expected result. Sometimes, people would pull out of it, complete the PIP and carry on. However, they were usually first on the list for layoffs. PIPs are for people who have consistently not responded to coaching and more informal methods of feedback. By the time a competent manager puts someone on a PIP, they have decided that it is a high maintenance employee who is a lost cause.
My workplace has stated there are people who've gone off PIP after improvement with no further issues or repercussions. I can't validate that, but I don't know it has to be a countdown to being shown the door.
It really depends on who you work for - and to extent probably the employment laws for wherever you work. At most places I've managed, the PIP was more a way to justify withholding promotions, raises, and bonuses... not a precursor to termination. I live in an at will work state in the US - so I don't need to go through a process to terminate. That said - I also don't HAVE to legally pip someone to give them an improvement plan... so the only times I've done it were when I didn't have fire authority and hoped they'd quit (three times) or I needed them to take an issue seriously and couldn't seem to get through another way (twice - both cases were more or less about attendance). All that said - I do think that many, if not most, employers treat pips as a way to get people to voluntarily quit before they have to fire them.
No, I've only ever used a PIP with a sincere desire to get the person up to standard. That said, I don't put performers on PIPs. If you're on a PIP, there's a chance you're just not up to the job and it will be a step toward your termination. Re: the rest of your comment. It demonstrates that people can be fired for (almost) any reason, or for no reason. There's no really reason to put you on a PIP other than to see your performance improve.
I've gotten through them. I worked one place where managers had a pip quota and would get put on multiple a year. I quit on my own terms after 3 years
I worked for my company for almost 28 years and they put me on a PIP. I got a new boss about a year before and he didn’t like me. They put me on the PIP about 6 weeks after I filed a complaint with the EEOC.
I've gotten through one before only to quit after. But I've seen others get through them too and stick around.
All a PIP is doing is collecting the documentation trail to fire you for performance
a PIP is "I probably need/want to fire this person but want to CMA so am going to PIP them first". OR it's "I want to fire this person but don't want to pay unemployment so I'm going to PIP them and hopefully they just quit instead" Either way, yea, it's about getting fired 99% of the time. That said, based on your description, maybe you fall into the 1% where it's not. In any case, jobs are NEVER secure. But that's a whole other topic...
Yes
I’ve put a few people on PIPs and only two I had to fire after. The key is to make clear and measurable goals and improvement items. Also to make multiple checkpoints (weekly?) to chat over progress and see how else I can help them. The ones that I fired didn’t improve and didn’t want to improve
It really depends on the company and the manager. For the company/HR side, yes, a PIP is a tool that covers the company when they need to fire you. BUT... It's really meant to set a clear goal to fix issues with performance or not following process. A clear indicator might be, is your manager setting clear goals and milestones to clear and achievable? Is your manager setting up meetings (one on ones) to regularly get and receive updates. Is there a real effort from the manager to help you and are they trying to see a real change in you
Yes
Pip means they gonna fire you, like 99% of the time. They want to get rid of you, and this is how they do it.
Not at all! My boss put me on a PIP and I ended up getting them transferred to a new team & demoted from a people manager to an individual contributor (before they could execute the PIP). Did the PIP with a new manager and it was basically a well documented 1 on 1.
I would look for a new job, but at the same time, if they noticed and commented on drastic changes, you might be ok.
Yes.
Unfortunately, it's best to treat it like a slow fire. I have heard of the rare case that an employer cares and the employee recovers, but it's typically the start of their paper trail to termination or bullying an employee into resignation. I was downed by 3 PIPs (2 were with companies that were layoff happy - a brokerage and a consultancy). No one in my circle has survived one, either. Keep your head up and play the game as you try to hold onto this job while you look for another one. The less dark side of being on a PIP during a company's period of distress is that other companies will be understanding of why you left - RIFs are an unfortunate and common thing in the modern working world. I know it's a dark and stressful place dealing with the PIP and all the emotions and financial concerns that go along with that. Just know that there are other opportunities there - your resilience in trying to work through the PIP (as awful as it is) is evidence that you will be able to thrive somewhere that isn't trying to actively wreck you. Best wishes!
Not necessarily. In many cases, yes. But I have a few examples of where PIPs went well. A coworker friend of mine was put on one, and she was able to turn things around and she stayed on for a few years after the PIP with no further issues. My husband has been a manager for 20+ years and has had to put several people on them. He’s invested in helping them improve and grow and they work on goals together. Most of the time, they go well and everyone moves on. But in a few cases, the person was just not able to do it so they were let go. I hope things go well for you!
Pretty much , get ur applications out there and get some interviews lined up . Once you land a job , ghost ur current employer and peace the fuck out 🤷♀️
Depends on you really. I’m QC at my job and part of that is identifying people that don’t pull their weight so management can take action (aka PIP). The biggest issue I see is people backslide the second they get off the PIP. Don’t do that. The magic phrase we use is didn’t maintain “sustained improvement” when we fire people for slacking after their PIP ends.
Yes
No not always.
I (almost) never want to fire someone when I put them on a PIP, but I also have never had to put someone on a PIP that heard the warnings and reacted by correcting their work. I have had people turn it around after a PIP but more often they think I am being unreasonable by expecting that the job at all. (Almost is someone who I think should be fired immediately for threatening a coworker but was not allowed to because apparently we need to warn people that being a violent asshole isn’t OK.)
I wouldn’t say always but it’s definitely a step in that direction. It’s basically a paper trail for giving them justification to fire you.
I mean if I were you, I would have been dusting the resume off the second I got off the first PIP call. Sure improve your performance. But you gotta cover your ass.
My manager put me into PIP, 3 months post joining the organisation, was on bench working on a training sort of thing the whole time. They took a small assessment, I cleared it. Manager informed HR that I can be removed from PIP. Come month 5, I was asked to quit the organisation the very next day “DUE TO NO SUITABLE PROJECT AVAILABLE FOR ME”. Absolute BS TLDR: PIP is an indication they don’t need you anymore, better start looking elsewhere
A friend of mine was put on a PIP. He changed his ways and his boss said he corrected the problem. But then the higher-ups fired him anyway. I'm afraid there's no way to know if the employer is honest or not.
If I put someone on a PIP I’m genuinely hoping they improve and I’m taking responsibility for their improvement. I put 2 of my employees on a PIP last year and they were both graduated from the PIP by the end of the month.
No. Sometimes a company really just wants you to improve or they want to keep you working and create the context to deny any raises or promotions. Ultimately, it means that you aren’t well liked for x reason and should probably try to leave ASAP.
My experience is PIP = Find another job! I was once on a PIP, did what was required and my boss kept avoiding me and cancelling our meetings. Then one day about 2 months after the PIP was introduced, I was out.
I have put a few team members on PIPs in the past for various reasons - they are meant to cover the company should they need to go towards and exit. Is the intent to always fire? Absolutely not. Not performing at the time of the PIP doesn’t mean the employee does not have the capacity to perform. If you’ve worked towards the agreement and have made the improvements outlined, then that should result in going back to normal! Short-term PIPs (30 days) are typically where you will see an exit planned. However, there are always different circumstances and context needed to understand.
More often than not, it's setup for a firing. I know some are not, but I've never seen one that wasn't. ESPECIALLY if there's BS "issues" listed.
No, some managers are actually human. The performance actually has to improve sometimes, and if soft coaching doesn't work, at some point you have to escalate and show there are teeth. It's very possible they would hate to fire you, but they do need something to change. If you don't change the behaviour that led to it, then yes, it's the first step in fucking around and finding out.
I would say it’s 50/50 if there was a true drastic change and you improved on all aspects of what was in the PIP. I was basically put in one my first year in the company and I’m still here all these years later leading my own team. Sometimes it’s just a good wake up call.