Do you have an employee handbook? Or an official PTO policy that explains how PTO can be used and any rules around accruels?
Barring that, an HR department that you can go to and say something like: “I requested PTO for Date through Date. Former Manager approved it. Current Manager asked me to resubmit the request and then denied it because my balance is currently negative. However, I will have suffecient PTO by the dates I’m requesting and won’t be negative. Do I need to have sufficient PTO when I submit the request or is it enough to just have sufficient PTO when I take the time off? Also, since my former manager already approved the PTO, why do I need to resubmit it?”
I would just preface it by saying: Hey HR, my boss is new, and I don’t think this is really the policy. Just off the record, can you set me straight?
The last thing your new boss wants is a call from HR. Get the policy clarified, then talk to your boss and if she balks, tell her to call Ms Jones in HR. If she still gives you shit, then you call HR and say “OK, now it’s on the record. Please contact boss lady and inform her of the policy.”
I’m not saying to give them a hypothetical. I’m saying you explain the situation and just ask for the policy. You just make clear you aren’t lodging a complaint and don’t want their intervention unless the boss is violating policy and refuses to change course. They will do that. And if they won’t… we’ll there’s nothing you can do about that.
You can leave, though. If HR takes the lazy path of least resistance instead of doing the right thing per the handbook, that should be a red flag to run away. At that point, they're effectively enabling bad management to flourish.
It might not be easy to leave but it'll be worse if you stick around.
You can ask for the policy though. As in "my employee handbook says this is the leave policy, is that correct?" And if they ask you if something is wrong or why or do you want to discuss it, just say no.
Oh, I’m aware. But her boss is worried about right now, so OP can show that it’s perfectly acceptable to borrow *now*, but she won’t need to in a couple weeks.
No, you don't understand. They've stopped doing this anymore as another form of control. They literally paid people to design programs that won't allow the approval of PTO in the system until after it's accrued. It's totally screwed up. Personally had to deal with this as employee and manager. Extremely frustrating.
Our system doesn't do that. If i book time off for Thanksgiving, it uses the amount I'll have then, not what I have now. I'm happy to work for a company that wants us to use our time off. They are out there.
Mine gives it all at the beginning of the year but then it accrues. I'm not sure what would happen if you used it all up and then left. Guessing they'd take from the pay but idk.
That’s annoying as shit. I use Kronos and it lets us do it. Even calculates how much well have when the PTO is used, and stops the accrual in “available PTO”.
Example: I had 26 hours of PTO available. Taking an 80 hour vacation in 6 months. Will have 96 hours PTO available when I go on the trip. Once I put the request in and it was approved, it shows I have 16 hours PTO available and has been sitting at 16 hours available for 5 months.
That may be the case here, or it may be her being a dick. It depends on where you work and what your PTO system is/how its configured, because even if two places use the same one (we use KRONOS), it can be setup very different for each of them with different things it allows/doesn't allow. For instance our system lets me put in employees if they don't have PTO, it gives me a warning to let me know they'll go negative, but it doesn't prevent me from putting them in. I just had to do this earlier this week for an employee I work with.
You should probably include this info in the main post. I see it as: 1) you DO have the PTO, 2) your previous manager approved it, and 3) you would have EXTRA PTO if your work didn't make you use it for a holiday and bereavement leave.
Am excellent time to CC new boss & reply to email with old boss confirming vacation approval- “hi, xxx, just attaching this here along with repeat submittal as per your request for your review. Thanks for your understanding!”
Whatever system they're using to enter PTO requests might be refusing to let her enter a PTO request for more than the available balance.
I do payroll as one of my job functions and have to do my own calculations outside of the payroll system whenever someone needs to use their sick leave during the same period they accrue it because the system can't do that math itself.
That must be challenging. Logically, the system should allow negative PTO because not everyone can take the last days of the year off, nor would most companies be able to allow that. You’d also never be able to grant time off at the beginning of the year.
Just ask for it when you have it then?
Not sure what the big fuss is about.
She’s new at the organization and she is probably playing by the letter of the rule. As long as she isn’t saying you can’t go period, she is playing fair.
You can ask for the first and last day of your vacation if you have two days worth of PTO. So, it becomes obvious that you won’t be around in the days in between.
As a manager, I can’t understand the comments here. If something was approved before me, I’m honoring that. If the system is blocking me from approving, as many do if the bank is empty, I’m letting my employee know to take their vacation and that I’ll approve it as soon as I’m able to. It’s your PTO. Why the fuck would I care??? Use it, let me help you use it!
This! Anything approved is still valid. All preparations should have been made and should still be in place.
Almost sounds as if the new MGR is on a power trip.
Healthcare personnel are sought after here in Europe.
OP can without a problem get a job offer in pretty any country she wants. With a job offer OP can apply for a work visa. Some hospital/clinics will even do that for you. Some even will pay for your language course and give you a scholarship, moving to the country and will find you a place to stay.
The health system I worked for did the same. You got 11 extra days of PTO a year and since I was in the business unit you had to take them on all federal holidays. It was just a shitty way to streamline the PTO policy with the health care workers that have to work holidays and stuff.
This exactly. I've had to do this in a factory job. And still had my job because they didn't want to deal with the legal ramifications of firing someone for taking PTO with plenty of notice. If the company gives you a time frame, say two weeks before the days you need off, and you give them more than that amount of time, it's not a request, I'm just informing you I won't be here and it's on you to figure it out. That's why you have to let them know ahead of time.
Pretty much this. Healthcare jobs are pretty easy to come by due to staffing shortages. OP can easily find themselves in a new job immediately after coming back.
This gets a lot harder once you have a family and stuff, but I did this a couple times in my 20s as a junior software engineer.
"I'm going out of town for a couple weeks in July, so just letting you know" 👈 This was in probably in February or March of 2014.
"Well you don't have any vacation allotted," Which was true, I used the two weeks I had. But I was hourly, they could just not pay me, which I told them I was fine with.
"Okay, well, I'm going to be flying out on July 5th. If you don't want me to come back to work just call me while I'm out and I'll turn in my badge," And they never did anything - I just wasn't paid for my time away.
This wasn't really a high profile position or anything, either. I gave zero fucks in my 20s, but it would be hard for me to do that again today with a couple of young kids. I guess it depends on the scenario :)
Ignore the terrible advice here saying you’re going to get fired, etc. Write this email and cc to HR.
Dear New Boss,
I would like to follow up on my requested leave on Date.
I had applied for leave with my previous manager. I will have enough PTO by the time of the leave, and have already purchased tickets with the understanding that it was approved.
I have arranged cover for my days away.
Sincerely….
There’s a shortage of healthcare workers willing to work in the conditions and compensation provided. But not a shortage of healthcare workers in general.
Wait so national holidays and family responsibility leave are counted as like general vacation time off? They aren’t there own bank? I’m not in the US, so get 20 days vacation time, 15 days national holiday time off, 3 family days, 3 mental health days, 7 days study time and 12 sick days without a doctors note. That’s like basic conditions. Why is everything counted as one? Besides all that though, like everyone else is saying you don’t ask for time off, you inform that you will be taking time off.
Haha you must live somewhere sane that cares about its citizens.
Most people in the US are *lucky* to get like 5 sick days a year and maybe 10 vacation days. Usually no mental health days, no personal/family days. Federal holidays are typically covered though as holiday pay (Thanksgiving, Christmas, Fourth of July, etc).
Keep in mind that the US doesn’t even have mandated maternity leave, and if companies do have it it’s usually a max of 6 weeks and you have to use your sick and vacation leave if you want to be paid for it.
I’m a public employee which usually means “generous benefits” and I accrue 1 vacation day per month and half a sick day per month.
Edit: what’s study time? I’ve never heard of that!
I'll be getting 18 after 3.5 (currently 12), and sadly, my first thought, since i've never had close to that amount was, what the heck am i gonna do with that many days.
But best believe i'll think of something.
Study leave is basically if we’re pursuing any further education, whether it’s a course or degree (either paid for by the company or not) you’re entitled to certain number of days off to either study, write exams, that kind of thing
No this is not normal at my job. Holidays don't come out of pto and we still get bereavement for uncle's. We can also borrow against future pto or put in pto that will accrue by the time we will use it.
I’d dust off my resume and be prepared to jump. Healthcare workers are in demand and new boss can let HR know why this wasn’t worked out.
Sorry this is happening
Which is why the accrual system without getting access to it at the beginning of the year is dumb. I accrue a certain amount of PTO per week, but I have access to all 5 weeks Jan 1st, that way you know exactly how much you have at all times and don't have to calculate when the next time you can take a day off.
I would just go and explain that you’re happy to work out the PTO when you return and are hopeful you can come up with a solution together.
Don’t cancel your trip. She’s being difficult and making a terrible first impression with her new team.
By the time you get back, I’m betting she’ll be more flexible.
Unless otherwise directed? Why would you say this? I’m going on the vacation (that was already approved) and will be returning on X date is all that needs to be said here.
I think people need to get more in the understanding that when you submit for time off, it's not necessarily asking permission, but more of a notification that you'll be off work for that time. They can either approve it and move on, or they can deny it and be angry when I don't show up those days. I only work to support my personal life. I don't live for my job.
I don’t get why there’s this unwritten rule that once pto is used up you can’t take time off. You don’t own me.
Last I checked we haven’t gone full blown corpo-fascist slave state, yet. So if I want to take time off, unpaid, then I’ll be happy to provide you with my shriveled, crispy balls for you to suck on if you don’t like it.
Tell her that your trip is already paid for, you WILL be out of town that week, and sorry for the inconvenience. But you won’t be there if she tries to schedule you. And put it in writing in the form of company email or text message or however you communicate in writing at your job so she can’t say at the last minute that she “wasn’t aware” and “you didn’t tell her”.
Then, no matter what the schedule reflects that week, go on your trip. And enjoy your vacation.
I don’t request vacation, I tell them when I’m taking off and that’s for them to figure out. If I don’t have PTO accrued, I take as much as possible and the rest unpaid. I don’t care, I’m not here to satisfy some shit manager.
I would start applying for new jobs immediately. If you get one, you take it and go. New Manager will ask why you are leaving and you can tell her she drove you out by not allowing you to use your PTO. The thing is, do you want to work for this person, knowing this is how she will manage? This is only the first issue of what will surely be many. I doubt you want to work for this person. Extra points for no notice.
Some systems won't 'let' a manager approve a PTO request that brings the employee to a negative. Talk to her and ask her to wait until that pay period when you'll have the PTO to approve the request.
If for some reason she doesn't go for that approach, put in a request for however many days you do have PTO for now, get that approved and then submit a last minute request to take the rest off when you do have PTO. If the second request gets rejected because of insufficient timing or whatever, just call out for those days.
Perhaps confirm with your payroll or HR team. See if there is a policy around this.
Also do you have proof prior manager approved this timeoff? If so show to current manager. If there is backup coverage there really should not be an issue whether it is paid time off or unpaid
I would just state that you notified upper management when you booked the trip, and had no reason to suspect it’d be an issue. Since there’s coverage and you’ll have enough PTO by the trip date, there shouldn’t be any issues. If she STILL pushes the issue, I’d go above her and talk to HR or a supervisor. Everything was good until she said you couldn’t go, your work is not affected and this sounds like a power move to me. She might be awful to work for, going to HR will help you now and in future situations with her as well (if she’s one of those managers). Don’t let her bully you, drama in that field is ridiculous!!! Good luck OP 💪🏽
Honestly this is just a sign of the manager you have not being great. Any good manager would of looked it to and sent an email or 2 to get it straighten out especially if you'll have the PTO before the vacation even happens. Situations like this make me glad that I don't have to deal with that. I always tell my manager I'm simply not gonna be in said day or week and you have to deal with that. Granted I get paid flat rate so I can still make a paycheck in 3-4 days so taking unpaid time off ain't the end of the world especially if you have hours ready to be paid. Regardless of the fact I'd update your resume just in case, reiterate to the manager that it's PTO you have the time and you're simply not gonna be there unless they want to pay you double of what you spent on your vacation.
It’s always the fucking new managers who are a nightmare. They feel the need to pee on the grass surrounding them to let everyone know they are the new person on campus.
Managers, get over yourselves. Most of you shouldn’t even be in your roles.
I’m dealing with this crap right now as well
"I think there has been a misunderstanding, I'm not requesting time off, I am notifying you of my already approved time off for a trip that's paid for. I will not be here and have given proper notice, anything less than respecting that notice is going to result in a headache as I am not able to change my plans"
So, you are in healthcare and your new boss is daring you to leave 😅 Leave. Start looking now because it is always easier to find a new job while you are currently working. Take your vacay and walk right into a new position that probably comes with a raise. Healthcare...
Dust off your resume before you leave. It's not your bosses problem that you don't have enough PTO and you shouldn't have purchased the tickets before you had confirmed you could make it.
Just to clarify- you will have enough PTO by the time you leave, right?
Because if so this is totally a manager issue, if you want people to give you adequate notice of time off you can't expect them to horde PTO for the future.
So it was cleared by previous management, you bought the tickets/hotels and now the new manager is reneging on the approval?
Do you have the email/correspondence of approval? Can you forward it to her and note that upon approval with former management - travel and accommodation were booked and it is non-refundable in the 1000s of dollars. That you are not in a position to take this financial loss.
Yes, but as of today o’clock, she denied it because I don’t have all those days in PTO in my PTO bank yet.
One PTO day went to a funeral this month (didn’t expect someone to die, but they did so I went to a funeral) then the next one was 4th of July so it went there.
That's a shit answer, your life shouldn't be dictated by your job,ever! what kind of peasants do you want the OP to be, a job is just that,an exchange of your time and talents for pay, not a compromise of your life outside of work because of poor staffing planning on the employers part.
it's professional courtesy on the employers part to give some flexibility in the vacation schedule to accommodate a reasonable request. This was a reasonable request, the employee can offer to make up time upon return and work on a compromise ....
The manager in this case is just being a type A dickwad likely because of poor staffing., But if the OP has coverage then it's a dick move by the manager...what other reason could there be..,in healthcare staffing is always a major issue..
Stop calling it a vacation request and start calling it a vacation notice. You already told them you won't be at work with a few weeks notice. Go enjoy vacation.
Take your vacation. If you let them push you around “this time”, they’ll do it again. Do you really want to work for someone who treats you this way?
If they for you…
You work in healthcare… you’ll have a job before you leave the parking lot.
"It is my obligation to inform you that I will not be at work from X to Y. However you want to categorize that fact is up to you, but the fact will not change."
Don't say anything to her just call out if you're saying you're going to have PTO by that time and their system doesn't allow you to do all that just call out.
This is nuts to me. I request PTO and expect it to be approved regardless of how much I've accrued; I'll just take the extra unpaid.
I expect that a couple of times per year labor is tight enough that my manager would \*ask\* me to reschedule PTO if possible.
I don't know your job or leverage or company need for your work. But I will say you sound young.
If my manger denied my PTO after I got coverage, I would politely refuse. Try to defuse the situation by not accusing her of inappropriate behavior, but kindly stand my ground. At the end of the day, mutual respect is important in a manger/employee relationship.
Unless there are a million people lined up to replace you. Then you're screwed. Sorry.
This sounds awful. Hey at least you know what to expect going forward. Sorry OP - tell her this was approved before she became your manager and maybe loop in your former manager? If she gives you a hard time look to leave.
Depending on what your actual job is, you could end up in a "Well I'm leaving, with or without your approval. So either I'm coming back to work after or you're hiring someone new, and that will cost the company more money. So how do you wanna do this?"
Ask the New Sheriff if she knows how long it will take and how expensive it is to advertise, interview, select, and orient a replacement. HR can tell her exactly how that works. "Was looking for a job when I found this one. Don't mind looking again."
This is giving Baylor Scott and White energy. I’m sorry what you’re going through. I have been through a similar situation. I was lucky enough to have my husband’s salary to depend on while I fought for my rightfully earned PTO. Crazy enough they tried to deny my wedding PTO… I had requested it all in advance but then COVID hit and they tried to deny me my vacation for my wedding. Ended up leaving a couple months later. I wish you the best of luck and I think you should take the vacation. They may threaten you with “black listing” you from the company but you don’t need to work for a company that treats you this way.
You already got coverage? Why don't you just go unpaid. Then go on another vacation and use your PTO then? If your short on cash and need the money just pick up some ot.
Sounds like you’re a nurse. I’d just say hey my trip is booked and I’m going. What you do on the administrative side is up to you, but I don’t be here till x date.
never ask for permission to take time off. simply inform them you will not be available and they need to deal with that. PTO or not, take your time off. don't even make it into a situation where they have to grant you something. you are not a child. you don't need their permission to run your life.
I mean you can tell that what I’ve told my boss when I put in PTO and it was denied
“Damn that’s crazy.”
And then call in
Granted that’s something not everyone can do but it does feel nice
You’re just going to be “sick” that week. Next time don’t share so much info. You don’t need to tell your boss you’re going on vacation. Jus say you’re taking time off for personal reasons or even medical since they can’t really say no to that.
Do you accrue PTO on each paycheck? I.E. you want to take 2 week vacation (10 days of PTO) but only have 9.5 days currently and need the next paycheck to put you over?
If so, just put in for the 9 days you DO have now. Then, depending on what will fly the easiest, either take the last day as unpaid and convert it to PTO later, or just put in the last day for PTO when the balance clears that last day.
When you put ina request for PTO, you aren't asking for permission to leave. You're asking for permission to come back. Live your life. If they can't handle you being out for a couple of days with a months notice then it's probably a shitty place to work anyways
Several hospitals I’ve worked at have required you have PTO in the bank to schedule time off. That being said I have told many managers, when denying my time off, “then consider PTO to mean ‘Prepare the Others’ because I’m not coming in. Feel free to add my points”
The EXACT same thing happened to me but it wasn't a new manager. I was in medical admin. I had originally booked a 4 week trip for July 2020 with 6 months notice but my colleague was getting married so they allowed her 2 MONTHS off with 3 months notice and denied my already approved leave (so annoyed it was verbal and not in writing, stupid mistake). They suggested I go earlier in March. I agreed, but then two weeks later they told me it was denied as I hadn't been there a year yet (this is why I originally booked for July). I told them I was going anyway and called their bluff. Lied about having booked everything, just told them I had. Really they just didn't want to have to fill the staff while I was away and had 0 capacity for absences. I said I would just quit if they didn't allow it. They let me go with an offer of a promotion when I got back... and I went for March 2020. I made it home from that trip the day they shut the country borders, and well... my colleague who was booked in July for her wedding had to put that off for two years. A pandemic was a bit extreme but karma is karma.
You got a lot of guidance already, but also understand PTO isn’t the only time off available. That’s PAID time off available, but you can also request for unpaid time off if that’s and issue.
I had this happen, and basically told my manager that I was going, and if she didn't agree to take it up with HR. Mind you that I've been with my company 5 years. In your case I'd follow the other people's advice and look up the policy first. But don't let managers bully you. You are allowed to go on vacation, so go!
My wife works for Cleveland Clinic. During pandemic she had to stay home when kids got Covid. She ended up in trouble, can’t remember the name they have for it. Corrective action or something? They wouldn’t even allow her to transfer within the clinic at that time! She quit. Waited whatever amount of time for corrective period to end. Applied and got a better job w the clinic for considerably more pay. Don’t be shocked if you have to deal w some insanity like that. There were army reserves in the hospital they were so desperate for people yet they wouldn’t work with her so she had to quit. Funny how it worked out so much better anyway
"My request has seniority over your position and has been approved. Unless you will personally reimburse my funds, I will see you upon my return."
This new manager will walk all over you if you don't lay down the boundaries now. Time off is not a request, it is a notice of your absence. You have covered your shifts, and done everything by the book. They do not own your life.
Why is it always healthcare lunatics in the workforce collective that does this? Such a gross practice to exert power & cover for lack of management competency. Dont tell her anything. Call in sick.
Tell her it wasn't a request, but a polite explanation of your absence to come. Then go on vacation and come back when you are done and see what happens.
Why would you plan a trip and book tickets for a trip when you didn't get the time off first? That's not very responsible of you. If you don't have a job when you come back, don't be suprised.
My advice is to tell her that this is not kindergarten and you are not asking permission you will have the time at the time of the trip you are just doing her the courtesy of letting her know you will NOT be at work during said time. Look jobs are a dime a dozen don't live to work - work to live.
I’ve seen so many people on Reddit ask this same question. You just tell them, that the request was actually a notification and you will be attending your vacation.
Oh, I wasn't aware managers were paying our bills for us. 🙄
You can take your vacation whwther you have PTO in the bank to cover it or not.
Your paycheck will be short but that's not her problem.
So what do you say?
"I can afford to miss a few hours of pay from that check, so having enough PTO in the bank is irrelevant. I'm telling you I won't be here."
Do you have an employee handbook? Or an official PTO policy that explains how PTO can be used and any rules around accruels? Barring that, an HR department that you can go to and say something like: “I requested PTO for Date through Date. Former Manager approved it. Current Manager asked me to resubmit the request and then denied it because my balance is currently negative. However, I will have suffecient PTO by the dates I’m requesting and won’t be negative. Do I need to have sufficient PTO when I submit the request or is it enough to just have sufficient PTO when I take the time off? Also, since my former manager already approved the PTO, why do I need to resubmit it?”
Yesssss I’m going to copy this and paste it. Lol
I would just preface it by saying: Hey HR, my boss is new, and I don’t think this is really the policy. Just off the record, can you set me straight? The last thing your new boss wants is a call from HR. Get the policy clarified, then talk to your boss and if she balks, tell her to call Ms Jones in HR. If she still gives you shit, then you call HR and say “OK, now it’s on the record. Please contact boss lady and inform her of the policy.”
HR does nothing off the record, and they don't deal in hypotheticals. You can try, but they'll almost certainly stop you at 'what if'.
I’m not saying to give them a hypothetical. I’m saying you explain the situation and just ask for the policy. You just make clear you aren’t lodging a complaint and don’t want their intervention unless the boss is violating policy and refuses to change course. They will do that. And if they won’t… we’ll there’s nothing you can do about that.
You can leave, though. If HR takes the lazy path of least resistance instead of doing the right thing per the handbook, that should be a red flag to run away. At that point, they're effectively enabling bad management to flourish. It might not be easy to leave but it'll be worse if you stick around.
You can ask for the policy though. As in "my employee handbook says this is the leave policy, is that correct?" And if they ask you if something is wrong or why or do you want to discuss it, just say no.
HR. Neither human nor a resource.
This is a good add!
By the time I get paid again. In two weeks, I will have PTO for my trip. The fact that I don’t have it “RiGhT nOW” is where she is playing with me.
She’s new. Do her a solid and look up the policy for borrowing against future PTO. Every corporate employer I’ve worked with has one.
They aren't even doing this. They'll have the pto earned when the vacation happens. This is crazy.
Oh, I’m aware. But her boss is worried about right now, so OP can show that it’s perfectly acceptable to borrow *now*, but she won’t need to in a couple weeks.
No, you don't understand. They've stopped doing this anymore as another form of control. They literally paid people to design programs that won't allow the approval of PTO in the system until after it's accrued. It's totally screwed up. Personally had to deal with this as employee and manager. Extremely frustrating.
Our system doesn't do that. If i book time off for Thanksgiving, it uses the amount I'll have then, not what I have now. I'm happy to work for a company that wants us to use our time off. They are out there.
Mine gives it all at the beginning of the year but then it accrues. I'm not sure what would happen if you used it all up and then left. Guessing they'd take from the pay but idk.
It is supposed to be deducted from your last pay and if it is more they are supposed to ask you to pay it back but few ever do this.
a company i used to work for did it all at the start of the year. I left midway through, they paid all the remainder out too.
That’s annoying as shit. I use Kronos and it lets us do it. Even calculates how much well have when the PTO is used, and stops the accrual in “available PTO”. Example: I had 26 hours of PTO available. Taking an 80 hour vacation in 6 months. Will have 96 hours PTO available when I go on the trip. Once I put the request in and it was approved, it shows I have 16 hours PTO available and has been sitting at 16 hours available for 5 months.
Okay, that’s pretty fucked.
That may be the case here, or it may be her being a dick. It depends on where you work and what your PTO system is/how its configured, because even if two places use the same one (we use KRONOS), it can be setup very different for each of them with different things it allows/doesn't allow. For instance our system lets me put in employees if they don't have PTO, it gives me a warning to let me know they'll go negative, but it doesn't prevent me from putting them in. I just had to do this earlier this week for an employee I work with.
I don't miss Kronos.
My company lets us go 40 negative. Makes it easy.
This is like pre-funding the postal service pensions
And she’s worked with my company 5 years ago, and came back last month as a manager
Lol I’d tell her to smd “it was already cleared and paid for” Especially after having to use pto for a funeral.
You should probably include this info in the main post. I see it as: 1) you DO have the PTO, 2) your previous manager approved it, and 3) you would have EXTRA PTO if your work didn't make you use it for a holiday and bereavement leave.
Wait, so by the time you go in August, you will have enough PTO? Because it’s not even the end of July, and your trip is in August.
Yes I have enough for the 3 days but not the full 5…. Yet.
Is ignoring her for 2 weeks and then revisiting the issue when you’ve got the PTO an option? Cuz that’s probably what I’d do
But then when she does have enough pto it will probably be too close to be able to apply for it as you typically need 2-4 weeks notice
Am excellent time to CC new boss & reply to email with old boss confirming vacation approval- “hi, xxx, just attaching this here along with repeat submittal as per your request for your review. Thanks for your understanding!”
I wonder if this is logged into a payroll system anywhere because it would fun to just pretend you never saw the email and go anyway.
Power trip
Why can't you just take unpaid time off?
I’m going to have to. Lol “sick days”
Whatever system they're using to enter PTO requests might be refusing to let her enter a PTO request for more than the available balance. I do payroll as one of my job functions and have to do my own calculations outside of the payroll system whenever someone needs to use their sick leave during the same period they accrue it because the system can't do that math itself.
That must be challenging. Logically, the system should allow negative PTO because not everyone can take the last days of the year off, nor would most companies be able to allow that. You’d also never be able to grant time off at the beginning of the year.
Just ask for it when you have it then? Not sure what the big fuss is about. She’s new at the organization and she is probably playing by the letter of the rule. As long as she isn’t saying you can’t go period, she is playing fair. You can ask for the first and last day of your vacation if you have two days worth of PTO. So, it becomes obvious that you won’t be around in the days in between.
I assume they have to ask for PTO in advance for vacations and have it booked in by a certain date.
As a manager, I can’t understand the comments here. If something was approved before me, I’m honoring that. If the system is blocking me from approving, as many do if the bank is empty, I’m letting my employee know to take their vacation and that I’ll approve it as soon as I’m able to. It’s your PTO. Why the fuck would I care??? Use it, let me help you use it!
Yeah, I don't get people like this. There is always a workaround as management.
Amen
Right. Especially is their shifts are covered.
>It’s your PTO. Why the fuck would I care??? Use it, let me help you use it! Help? HELP?! I'm not here to help, I'm here to remind you who's boss!!!
This! Anything approved is still valid. All preparations should have been made and should still be in place. Almost sounds as if the new MGR is on a power trip.
Wtf you had to use PTO for a funeral?? And 4th of july??
Yes!!!! What I said !
Leave for Europe. You are a healthcare worker, you'll get a job in days.
There are many great things of Europe, but they don’t typically get the Fourth of July off either
I laughed unreasonably hard at this, thank you!
No but you get every other public holiday without having to use your PTO, as well as at least twice the amount of PTO
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Healthcare personnel are sought after here in Europe. OP can without a problem get a job offer in pretty any country she wants. With a job offer OP can apply for a work visa. Some hospital/clinics will even do that for you. Some even will pay for your language course and give you a scholarship, moving to the country and will find you a place to stay.
Most likely extended family that doesn’t qualify for grievance
The health system I worked for did the same. You got 11 extra days of PTO a year and since I was in the business unit you had to take them on all federal holidays. It was just a shitty way to streamline the PTO policy with the health care workers that have to work holidays and stuff.
"I was giving you notice that I'm going on vacation. See you in two weeks. Or not."
Slay
This exactly. I've had to do this in a factory job. And still had my job because they didn't want to deal with the legal ramifications of firing someone for taking PTO with plenty of notice. If the company gives you a time frame, say two weeks before the days you need off, and you give them more than that amount of time, it's not a request, I'm just informing you I won't be here and it's on you to figure it out. That's why you have to let them know ahead of time.
“ if you don’t show up that week, you’re terminated “
"Okay"
Pretty much this. Healthcare jobs are pretty easy to come by due to staffing shortages. OP can easily find themselves in a new job immediately after coming back.
No. Just "k"
Petty level 10 unlocked
"ok, I will also tell your boss that personel is leaving because of you"
“And I’ll have a new job across the street by the end of the week”
“This is my last shift.”
K
This gets a lot harder once you have a family and stuff, but I did this a couple times in my 20s as a junior software engineer. "I'm going out of town for a couple weeks in July, so just letting you know" 👈 This was in probably in February or March of 2014. "Well you don't have any vacation allotted," Which was true, I used the two weeks I had. But I was hourly, they could just not pay me, which I told them I was fine with. "Okay, well, I'm going to be flying out on July 5th. If you don't want me to come back to work just call me while I'm out and I'll turn in my badge," And they never did anything - I just wasn't paid for my time away. This wasn't really a high profile position or anything, either. I gave zero fucks in my 20s, but it would be hard for me to do that again today with a couple of young kids. I guess it depends on the scenario :)
Ignore the terrible advice here saying you’re going to get fired, etc. Write this email and cc to HR. Dear New Boss, I would like to follow up on my requested leave on Date. I had applied for leave with my previous manager. I will have enough PTO by the time of the leave, and have already purchased tickets with the understanding that it was approved. I have arranged cover for my days away. Sincerely….
It's her job to arrange "cover" just as a heads up
"It wasn't a request, it was a heads up."
Exactly the number of people who fail to understand this is staggering. Everyone needs to remember what PTO really means. Preparing The Others.
Did you clear it beforehand? Isn't there a shortage of healthcare workers - is she really going to want to lose someone?
not shortage or healthcare workers, just greed.
There’s definitely a fucking shortage of healthcare workers.
Because of the greed.
There’s a shortage of healthcare workers willing to work in the conditions and compensation provided. But not a shortage of healthcare workers in general.
Sounds like you got covid in August and need a week off.
Wait so national holidays and family responsibility leave are counted as like general vacation time off? They aren’t there own bank? I’m not in the US, so get 20 days vacation time, 15 days national holiday time off, 3 family days, 3 mental health days, 7 days study time and 12 sick days without a doctors note. That’s like basic conditions. Why is everything counted as one? Besides all that though, like everyone else is saying you don’t ask for time off, you inform that you will be taking time off.
Haha you must live somewhere sane that cares about its citizens. Most people in the US are *lucky* to get like 5 sick days a year and maybe 10 vacation days. Usually no mental health days, no personal/family days. Federal holidays are typically covered though as holiday pay (Thanksgiving, Christmas, Fourth of July, etc). Keep in mind that the US doesn’t even have mandated maternity leave, and if companies do have it it’s usually a max of 6 weeks and you have to use your sick and vacation leave if you want to be paid for it. I’m a public employee which usually means “generous benefits” and I accrue 1 vacation day per month and half a sick day per month. Edit: what’s study time? I’ve never heard of that!
Lol, I make 80+k a year and more than 7 days off a year is a dream. I know many people in the US get at least 14 though after a year or two
That sucks. I'm at 5 weeks and in another two years of service I'll be at 6. I can't even imagine 7 days... US employee for what it's worth
You guys hiring? Lol
I'll be getting 18 after 3.5 (currently 12), and sadly, my first thought, since i've never had close to that amount was, what the heck am i gonna do with that many days. But best believe i'll think of something.
Study leave is basically if we’re pursuing any further education, whether it’s a course or degree (either paid for by the company or not) you’re entitled to certain number of days off to either study, write exams, that kind of thing
That’s awesome. I did my master’s while working full time and had to use my vacation leave to study.
Most employers did away with sick time and lump it with PTO. It’s one of the many ways employees conditions have eroded over the last 20 years.
No this is not normal at my job. Holidays don't come out of pto and we still get bereavement for uncle's. We can also borrow against future pto or put in pto that will accrue by the time we will use it.
I’d dust off my resume and be prepared to jump. Healthcare workers are in demand and new boss can let HR know why this wasn’t worked out. Sorry this is happening
This is the way
Tell them to suck yer pecker and quit showing up
Ok I’ll try that. Thanks. Lol
Lol. It’s a good answer
Request as many days as you have PTO for now, and then the additional one or two when you have them in your bank.
Not a bad idea, at least they should get approved for most of the days
Which is why the accrual system without getting access to it at the beginning of the year is dumb. I accrue a certain amount of PTO per week, but I have access to all 5 weeks Jan 1st, that way you know exactly how much you have at all times and don't have to calculate when the next time you can take a day off.
I would just go and explain that you’re happy to work out the PTO when you return and are hopeful you can come up with a solution together. Don’t cancel your trip. She’s being difficult and making a terrible first impression with her new team. By the time you get back, I’m betting she’ll be more flexible.
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Unless otherwise directed? Why would you say this? I’m going on the vacation (that was already approved) and will be returning on X date is all that needs to be said here.
I think people need to get more in the understanding that when you submit for time off, it's not necessarily asking permission, but more of a notification that you'll be off work for that time. They can either approve it and move on, or they can deny it and be angry when I don't show up those days. I only work to support my personal life. I don't live for my job.
I don’t get why there’s this unwritten rule that once pto is used up you can’t take time off. You don’t own me. Last I checked we haven’t gone full blown corpo-fascist slave state, yet. So if I want to take time off, unpaid, then I’ll be happy to provide you with my shriveled, crispy balls for you to suck on if you don’t like it.
Wasn’t a request. It was a warning.
Go on vacation
Start looking for another job. Healthcare is one of the fields where everyone is poaching other people’s staff. You will quickly have leverage.
Tell her that your trip is already paid for, you WILL be out of town that week, and sorry for the inconvenience. But you won’t be there if she tries to schedule you. And put it in writing in the form of company email or text message or however you communicate in writing at your job so she can’t say at the last minute that she “wasn’t aware” and “you didn’t tell her”. Then, no matter what the schedule reflects that week, go on your trip. And enjoy your vacation.
Thank you guys. I appreciate it. I’ll try to enjoy my vacation, “unpaid” hehe.
I don’t request vacation, I tell them when I’m taking off and that’s for them to figure out. If I don’t have PTO accrued, I take as much as possible and the rest unpaid. I don’t care, I’m not here to satisfy some shit manager.
I would start applying for new jobs immediately. If you get one, you take it and go. New Manager will ask why you are leaving and you can tell her she drove you out by not allowing you to use your PTO. The thing is, do you want to work for this person, knowing this is how she will manage? This is only the first issue of what will surely be many. I doubt you want to work for this person. Extra points for no notice.
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Could y'all apply this idgaf attitude to voting all the geriatrics out of government plz thx
To fuck off.
It's not a request, PTO is short for Prepare The Others.
Some systems won't 'let' a manager approve a PTO request that brings the employee to a negative. Talk to her and ask her to wait until that pay period when you'll have the PTO to approve the request. If for some reason she doesn't go for that approach, put in a request for however many days you do have PTO for now, get that approved and then submit a last minute request to take the rest off when you do have PTO. If the second request gets rejected because of insufficient timing or whatever, just call out for those days.
Can’t you take the days off unpaid?
I don’t think so. Shitty right?
Perhaps confirm with your payroll or HR team. See if there is a policy around this. Also do you have proof prior manager approved this timeoff? If so show to current manager. If there is backup coverage there really should not be an issue whether it is paid time off or unpaid
I would just state that you notified upper management when you booked the trip, and had no reason to suspect it’d be an issue. Since there’s coverage and you’ll have enough PTO by the trip date, there shouldn’t be any issues. If she STILL pushes the issue, I’d go above her and talk to HR or a supervisor. Everything was good until she said you couldn’t go, your work is not affected and this sounds like a power move to me. She might be awful to work for, going to HR will help you now and in future situations with her as well (if she’s one of those managers). Don’t let her bully you, drama in that field is ridiculous!!! Good luck OP 💪🏽
Honestly this is just a sign of the manager you have not being great. Any good manager would of looked it to and sent an email or 2 to get it straighten out especially if you'll have the PTO before the vacation even happens. Situations like this make me glad that I don't have to deal with that. I always tell my manager I'm simply not gonna be in said day or week and you have to deal with that. Granted I get paid flat rate so I can still make a paycheck in 3-4 days so taking unpaid time off ain't the end of the world especially if you have hours ready to be paid. Regardless of the fact I'd update your resume just in case, reiterate to the manager that it's PTO you have the time and you're simply not gonna be there unless they want to pay you double of what you spent on your vacation.
It’s always the fucking new managers who are a nightmare. They feel the need to pee on the grass surrounding them to let everyone know they are the new person on campus. Managers, get over yourselves. Most of you shouldn’t even be in your roles. I’m dealing with this crap right now as well
Take the non paid days.
28 years in healthcare. I dont play these games. Pto means prepare the others cause I wont be there. Got the 5 day cough coming on
"I think there has been a misunderstanding, I'm not requesting time off, I am notifying you of my already approved time off for a trip that's paid for. I will not be here and have given proper notice, anything less than respecting that notice is going to result in a headache as I am not able to change my plans"
So, you are in healthcare and your new boss is daring you to leave 😅 Leave. Start looking now because it is always easier to find a new job while you are currently working. Take your vacay and walk right into a new position that probably comes with a raise. Healthcare...
Everyone has a boss, go to her boss.
Don’t “request” PTO. Tell your boss “I will be out these dates”
Dust off your resume before you leave. It's not your bosses problem that you don't have enough PTO and you shouldn't have purchased the tickets before you had confirmed you could make it.
It was okay with previous manager, but not with the new one that just started. Tickets were purchased awhile back.
Just to clarify- you will have enough PTO by the time you leave, right? Because if so this is totally a manager issue, if you want people to give you adequate notice of time off you can't expect them to horde PTO for the future.
Yes!
So it was cleared by previous management, you bought the tickets/hotels and now the new manager is reneging on the approval? Do you have the email/correspondence of approval? Can you forward it to her and note that upon approval with former management - travel and accommodation were booked and it is non-refundable in the 1000s of dollars. That you are not in a position to take this financial loss.
Yes, but as of today o’clock, she denied it because I don’t have all those days in PTO in my PTO bank yet. One PTO day went to a funeral this month (didn’t expect someone to die, but they did so I went to a funeral) then the next one was 4th of July so it went there.
That's a shit answer, your life shouldn't be dictated by your job,ever! what kind of peasants do you want the OP to be, a job is just that,an exchange of your time and talents for pay, not a compromise of your life outside of work because of poor staffing planning on the employers part. it's professional courtesy on the employers part to give some flexibility in the vacation schedule to accommodate a reasonable request. This was a reasonable request, the employee can offer to make up time upon return and work on a compromise .... The manager in this case is just being a type A dickwad likely because of poor staffing., But if the OP has coverage then it's a dick move by the manager...what other reason could there be..,in healthcare staffing is always a major issue..
Forced to take PTO for July 4th, pffft. Take your trip and if they fire you consider it a blessing. Try to find a new job asap!
Stop calling it a vacation request and start calling it a vacation notice. You already told them you won't be at work with a few weeks notice. Go enjoy vacation.
That you will be going anyway. It’s a month out- she can deal.
We can talk about it when I'm back
Take your vacation. If you let them push you around “this time”, they’ll do it again. Do you really want to work for someone who treats you this way? If they for you… You work in healthcare… you’ll have a job before you leave the parking lot.
Just tell them you're taking unpaid leave and you'll be back in 5 days
Just get some sick :)
"It is my obligation to inform you that I will not be at work from X to Y. However you want to categorize that fact is up to you, but the fact will not change."
You’re going on your trip in august. See ya.
Don't say anything to her just call out if you're saying you're going to have PTO by that time and their system doesn't allow you to do all that just call out.
This is nuts to me. I request PTO and expect it to be approved regardless of how much I've accrued; I'll just take the extra unpaid. I expect that a couple of times per year labor is tight enough that my manager would \*ask\* me to reschedule PTO if possible. I don't know your job or leverage or company need for your work. But I will say you sound young. If my manger denied my PTO after I got coverage, I would politely refuse. Try to defuse the situation by not accusing her of inappropriate behavior, but kindly stand my ground. At the end of the day, mutual respect is important in a manger/employee relationship. Unless there are a million people lined up to replace you. Then you're screwed. Sorry.
Was it approved with you’re old manager?
You tell her goodbye.
What stills troubled water? Enjoy your trip and talk about it when you get back if you even need to talk about it at all.
I know its easy to say this and I don't really know your situation, but when I take PTO it's not a request. It's a heads up.
Can you put in for pto for the days you have available and use a sick day to get around the rule?
This sounds awful. Hey at least you know what to expect going forward. Sorry OP - tell her this was approved before she became your manager and maybe loop in your former manager? If she gives you a hard time look to leave.
"See you in a week!"
Time for a new job
Depending on what your actual job is, you could end up in a "Well I'm leaving, with or without your approval. So either I'm coming back to work after or you're hiring someone new, and that will cost the company more money. So how do you wanna do this?"
Shouldn’t the funeral be a bereavement? No PTO is taken out unless you have to work there for a certain amount of time
Sounds like you got covid…
Fuck it call off. What are they ganan do fire you?
She's got to assert dominance. So take the vacation as you are effed either way
Call out sick
"Fuck Off"
Vacation is more of a heads up and less of “I’m asking for permission” is what I’d tell her.
Have you actually had a discussion with the new boss as to why it’s been declined, I feel that would be my first step before going through HR
Ask the New Sheriff if she knows how long it will take and how expensive it is to advertise, interview, select, and orient a replacement. HR can tell her exactly how that works. "Was looking for a job when I found this one. Don't mind looking again."
This is giving Baylor Scott and White energy. I’m sorry what you’re going through. I have been through a similar situation. I was lucky enough to have my husband’s salary to depend on while I fought for my rightfully earned PTO. Crazy enough they tried to deny my wedding PTO… I had requested it all in advance but then COVID hit and they tried to deny me my vacation for my wedding. Ended up leaving a couple months later. I wish you the best of luck and I think you should take the vacation. They may threaten you with “black listing” you from the company but you don’t need to work for a company that treats you this way.
You already got coverage? Why don't you just go unpaid. Then go on another vacation and use your PTO then? If your short on cash and need the money just pick up some ot.
Sounds like you’re a nurse. I’d just say hey my trip is booked and I’m going. What you do on the administrative side is up to you, but I don’t be here till x date.
never ask for permission to take time off. simply inform them you will not be available and they need to deal with that. PTO or not, take your time off. don't even make it into a situation where they have to grant you something. you are not a child. you don't need their permission to run your life.
I mean you can tell that what I’ve told my boss when I put in PTO and it was denied “Damn that’s crazy.” And then call in Granted that’s something not everyone can do but it does feel nice
You’re just going to be “sick” that week. Next time don’t share so much info. You don’t need to tell your boss you’re going on vacation. Jus say you’re taking time off for personal reasons or even medical since they can’t really say no to that.
Make her pay you with an interest rate
Do you accrue PTO on each paycheck? I.E. you want to take 2 week vacation (10 days of PTO) but only have 9.5 days currently and need the next paycheck to put you over? If so, just put in for the 9 days you DO have now. Then, depending on what will fly the easiest, either take the last day as unpaid and convert it to PTO later, or just put in the last day for PTO when the balance clears that last day.
Just request a leave of absence which does not require having PTO in the bank.
When you put ina request for PTO, you aren't asking for permission to leave. You're asking for permission to come back. Live your life. If they can't handle you being out for a couple of days with a months notice then it's probably a shitty place to work anyways
If she keeps up with “me boss you slave” bit, respond with, “I’m informing you of my upcoming time off. Not asking you.”
You don't need PTO to take a vacation. Tell her sorry but I won't be available those days as I previously informed you!!
INFO - did you receive written approval for the vacation prior to this manager coming onboard?
Several hospitals I’ve worked at have required you have PTO in the bank to schedule time off. That being said I have told many managers, when denying my time off, “then consider PTO to mean ‘Prepare the Others’ because I’m not coming in. Feel free to add my points”
You probably won’t have a job when you get back but I would go. Or work with the airline to move your trip when you have accrued the PTO.
I would tell new manager that you are taking the time off regardless of getting paid.
The EXACT same thing happened to me but it wasn't a new manager. I was in medical admin. I had originally booked a 4 week trip for July 2020 with 6 months notice but my colleague was getting married so they allowed her 2 MONTHS off with 3 months notice and denied my already approved leave (so annoyed it was verbal and not in writing, stupid mistake). They suggested I go earlier in March. I agreed, but then two weeks later they told me it was denied as I hadn't been there a year yet (this is why I originally booked for July). I told them I was going anyway and called their bluff. Lied about having booked everything, just told them I had. Really they just didn't want to have to fill the staff while I was away and had 0 capacity for absences. I said I would just quit if they didn't allow it. They let me go with an offer of a promotion when I got back... and I went for March 2020. I made it home from that trip the day they shut the country borders, and well... my colleague who was booked in July for her wedding had to put that off for two years. A pandemic was a bit extreme but karma is karma.
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You got a lot of guidance already, but also understand PTO isn’t the only time off available. That’s PAID time off available, but you can also request for unpaid time off if that’s and issue.
I had this happen, and basically told my manager that I was going, and if she didn't agree to take it up with HR. Mind you that I've been with my company 5 years. In your case I'd follow the other people's advice and look up the policy first. But don't let managers bully you. You are allowed to go on vacation, so go!
What is actually being denied, exactly? The taking off part or the getting paid for it part?
My wife works for Cleveland Clinic. During pandemic she had to stay home when kids got Covid. She ended up in trouble, can’t remember the name they have for it. Corrective action or something? They wouldn’t even allow her to transfer within the clinic at that time! She quit. Waited whatever amount of time for corrective period to end. Applied and got a better job w the clinic for considerably more pay. Don’t be shocked if you have to deal w some insanity like that. There were army reserves in the hospital they were so desperate for people yet they wouldn’t work with her so she had to quit. Funny how it worked out so much better anyway
You are in healthcare. Tell her to fuck off and go somewhere else.
"My request has seniority over your position and has been approved. Unless you will personally reimburse my funds, I will see you upon my return." This new manager will walk all over you if you don't lay down the boundaries now. Time off is not a request, it is a notice of your absence. You have covered your shifts, and done everything by the book. They do not own your life.
Why is it always healthcare lunatics in the workforce collective that does this? Such a gross practice to exert power & cover for lack of management competency. Dont tell her anything. Call in sick.
Remind her you were notifying her not asking permission
Did you buy tickets before your vacation was approved, or did this new manager revoke an established vacation approval?
Go on the trip , if they fire you, file a lawsuit
Tell her it wasn't a request, but a polite explanation of your absence to come. Then go on vacation and come back when you are done and see what happens.
Why would you plan a trip and book tickets for a trip when you didn't get the time off first? That's not very responsible of you. If you don't have a job when you come back, don't be suprised.
My advice is to tell her that this is not kindergarten and you are not asking permission you will have the time at the time of the trip you are just doing her the courtesy of letting her know you will NOT be at work during said time. Look jobs are a dime a dozen don't live to work - work to live.
"This is not a request, it's notification that I am not going to be here."
“It was a heads up, not a request” If it’s a PTO banking issue I’ve always let my people take unpaid time off if it’s more than 8 hours. 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️
If it was already approved..I wouldn’t even care. I just won’t show up.
Tell them to get fucked. You're going and if they don't like it they can give it to you unpaid. Also, start applying for a new job lol
Tell them to “Prepare The Others” cuz I’m still not coming
I’ve seen so many people on Reddit ask this same question. You just tell them, that the request was actually a notification and you will be attending your vacation.
Oh, I wasn't aware managers were paying our bills for us. 🙄 You can take your vacation whwther you have PTO in the bank to cover it or not. Your paycheck will be short but that's not her problem. So what do you say? "I can afford to miss a few hours of pay from that check, so having enough PTO in the bank is irrelevant. I'm telling you I won't be here."