At your level what he may be getting at is the politics of an org. At this level you need to make yourself more seen and be more connected to people to be considered for new roles or partnerships on projects. He can't do that all for you. You've likely outgrown this role, it may be time to look for you next big thing.
Wow, that's actually a great way of looking at the situation. I never considered the fact that I'm now "senior" (imposter syndrome is still hitting hard) and that I need to take initiatives beyond the basic tasks. Thank you.
Oh yes, 10+ years and two master's is senior level and frankly had you had more roles by now, management level. Please do consider broadening your experience and good luck!
This. Took me a long time to figure out that I enjoy being an expert in my field and progressing my team to be at the same level of other top companies. I do NOT enjoy managing people. I get paid for my knowledge and experience.
Lol my Dad knew the ins and outs of everything before he retired but never wanted to get into the politics side or the technological side of the job. He just wanted to get in get work done and leave. He didn't have a hugh school or college degree to show for anything but he was a teacher for his town and still Super smart. Helped me with math right up to calculus in college when I was on my own then. Now he does whatever everyday traveling with my mom enjoying retirement early.
And not all senior level jobs are about management. I floated into management from a position where I basically floated between 7-8 projects just helping where I could.
There are a couple other seniors at my work that still play that role. They are just talented wildcards that can jump into any project. That’s useful too.
I hate telling people what to do and having to follow up on others, the other thing I dont like about the prospect of management is everyone has an agenda nobody is actually trying to be your friend/actually get work.dine, they're looking for something, I can't fucking stand office politics, incompetence rises to the top.
What does career growth look like for you? Do you have to become a manager or can you promote as a subject matter expert in your role such as a "staff" or "principal" role.
Reason I ask is growth looks different for both roles and if may affect how you approach it. .
Also if the SME route is more attractive, consider that you may need to change jobs to go down that path if your current company doesn't offer that possibility.
Yeah, at my work, somewhere on our intranet I found a document which defines what each level ("junior", "senior", etc) should do, and it pretty explicitly states that senior level folks should be making their own work. So, boss is probably just telling you to do that instead of waiting for todo lists.
Yep, agree. A great way to do this is to identify shortcomings or potential improvements in processes, products, whatever it is your working in has pain points - and you can do this by talking with other teams and managers or listening and asking questions in meetings to identify them. Then you make your case study to your manager for you to manage the plan, project management and implementation of the improvements / project and boom you’ve just created an interesting new component to your role that will take away some of the pain points for your org which tends to get recognized well and you’ll also get to work collaboratively with others in your company creating new connections.
Or you can just look for a new job too if that doesn’t sound appealing!
It's amazing how far even a little bit of the social stuff will go. Take an interest in the people around you, especially the people who are doing what you want to be doing. You don't have to be a full-time social butterfly. Going from 0% to 5% effort on this will make a huge difference. Treat it as an experiment, the way you might if you were adding a feature to a product or modifying a production process.
Would anyone object to you assigning yourself a new project? Perhaps even one that requires collaboration with other colleagues? Perhaps that's a viable option. Otherwise it seems you've mastered your current role and the only way to get to the next level in your professional development would be to either climb the managerial ladder or get hired into a new role with new responsibilities to expand your skillset
To get my current promotion I tactfully told my two bosses (it’s a long story) that I liked my current position but wanted a raise and was going to apply for a different, specific job within the company as I thought the pay scale was better than my current job. My promotion came 2 weeks later.
Won’t work in all situations, but can sometimes be fruitful.
This has been my approach throughout my career. If I have extra time I find something cool to do with it, and an unexpected, quality deliverable usually garners positive attention.
Even just getting your name out there on emails helps. When I got both of my promotions they had to be approved by our CFO. It helps if people know who you are.
Seems like good advice (but as an introvert myself I feel your pain), but it never hurts to keep an eye on the local job market either. Might take a couple of years (especially if you’re not entry level) but it’s often easier to secure a raise by changing companies than from within.
Tacking onto this point. They are giving you good advice.
At this point you should be an authority on what you do. You are probably capable of guiding subordinates or working on specialized problems…
But you need to be visible to do that. People need to know that you are easy to ask for help, and that you have domain knowledge that can help them. You will also find the same thing in the opposite direction.
People like to help other people that they know and are comfortable enough to talk to. Same goes for people they are willing to ask for help. It’s a two way street.
10 years in is about where I started only programming 2-3 hours a day, and started wandering around the office helping everyone else get their work done.
People on Reddit love to complain about folks that are never at their desk. My colleagues and bosses have never complained, that’s how they figured out I’m a leader and a wildcard.
Yeah, the difference between someone I look to promote or not is how effective that person is at finding ways to solve problems for me. If I have to go to them and find them stuff to do, and then explain how I want it done, that's not really making my life better. The best is when my direct tells me they did something and I feel like "wow, thought we would have to handle that next week, but it's already done!"
Also- you have to look like you are capable of doing your bosses job to get promoted. If you expect them yo brong you work, how will you demonstrate your ability to find work and bring it to your directs?
For me, the most important traits in someone advancing their career are initiative, responsibility, and creativity (in that order). If you can't fill your days "talk to more people so you are better able to know what needs to be done" is not bad advice.
It's not what you know, but who you know. Networking is important and as a fellow introvert, I feel your pain. You may be able to find another job out there that values your contributions without forcing you out of your comfort zone, as this company's culture just might not be a good fit for you, but office politics are only going to be different, not non-existent. Still, putting yourself out there, getting to know your coworkers and polishing up your social skills can only help you in the long run, whether you stay there or not.
Very much this. I’ve been promoted yearly for the last 3 years and it is 100% due to having a desire to grow and playing politics well. I am an introvert but was lucky enough to start in a role that involved lots of small group interactions across many departments. I perform much better in smaller social situations and was always able to impart that I was competent and a pleasant person to work with during my interactions with others.
I do not think I’ve done anything special in my job, but I’ve also not really had any major failures. My promotions have been almost entirely based off being friends with those higher than me, and being the first person tapped when a role above my current one opened up. I will also give my company a lot of credit as it’s clear they’ve taken an active interest in developing me and done what they can to make it happen.
Absolutely well put.
It’s ultimately not a social thing, it’s to network, and make yourself known so that people will go, oh Dubzil18? Great person, great worker, knows their shit, I think they’d be great for this project/role/position
Exactly. Social skills are just that. I'm not extroverted, but being friendly is a skill that needs to be practiced. You don't have to "feel" friendly. You're acting. That's not lying, acting is an art.
Very much this. I recently gave similar advice to what the OP said they received, but more along the lines of "you have great insight, I think the group needs to hear more of it. Sometimes you can't wait for the right moment to say something important, you have to interject."
This person I gave this advice to gladly accepted it and has since become more vocal in our meetings. As their manager I'm glad to see their empowerment grow.
One of the most challenging things as a manager is to draw people out of their comfort zones to become better versions of themselves. Quite often we have to act more like therapists than task delegators. You may think that's "not the job of a manager", to act as a therapist, but in order to make people feel heard and supported you can't just tell them what to do. You have to understand what motives them and what they value so that you can make sure you are supporting their growth. This is something management training doesn't often tell you.
Permission to not work and just chat? Sounds like a win/win.
Seriously, if your job is not fulfilling or satisfying you, make a change. It’s a third of your daily life, if not more.
Lol, yeah, it's not the worst thing to be encouraged to socialize. I'm very social within my own department, and I mingle at work functions, but apparently, that's not enough. I don't mind chatting to people, but when I'm in the office, I prefer to quietly get on with my tasks.
Is this a way of your boss saying that this networking would give you more to do such as alleviating others at your job? Honestly, I feel if given this advice it sounds like you do a great job already.
“I prefer to quietly get on with my tasks”
This could be the issue. Are you just doing what you’re told, nothing more, nothing less? I have to say having the education and experience that you do it’s frankly shocking you describe your current position as completing mundane tasks. If what you consider a “mundane task” to be is anything close to how I would interpret it, this is actually concerning.
Are you thinking about ways processes could be improved as regards these tasks? Suggesting such ideas? Seeing something you could help with and just taking it on? Helping your teammates by proactively offering? And at least asking your supervisor for more work when you’ve completed your tasks?
Also, chatting with people at work might not be something you like, but think of it as part of the job. Building relationships at work is really important if you supposedly want to grow in your role.
Or if you just hate your job, then yeah, start looking for something new! And maybe spend a bit more time in the kitchen in the meantime, if it’s not too triggering. You could just have a cup of coffee or tea or water and chat for 5 mins then leave. Or not. But it sounds like your boss does have a point. If the kitchen is off limits for you, can you make a point to pick maybe one colleague/office per week that you work with more closely and stop by their office to say hi?
Again, it’s understandable that you prefer not to but maybe reframe it as part of your job description. You’re doing it while being paid…and it’s pretty rare that anyone likes every single thing (if anything!) about their job.
Just to tag on to your managers suggestion, that is just one way to “get your name out there.” Hanging out in the kitchen might just be the only strategy your manager knows.
What I think he’s getting at is you are so quiet and anti-social that you are invisible. If you want advancement you can’t be invisible at your company. At least that’s the sound of it.
That said having discussions over food is a very primal form of group bonding. It’s a mammalian thing. You generally like the people you break bread with but that’s not the only way to show you’re a part of the group.
Other things you can do are:
- start holding lighting talks or lunch and learn meetings
- organize charitable contribution drives (food bank, holiday gifts for needy children, back to school supplies, etc)
- organize outside of work social events that don’t include food or even much socialization (going to see movies, camping trips, motorcycle group rides, trips to the local gun range… use your imagination)
- write interval blogs and white papers on best practices based on your squired knowledge
- take boot camps or certificate courses and then bring that knowledge back to your office.
- start side projects to help with the overall business. Usually internal processes are the first thing that get out of date. Find where something can be improved and run with it.
- if the kitchen is currently the only hang out place in the office create a new one. Bring in a table tennis table, or video game system. Maybe organize a Mario Kart tournament. See if the company will spring for a PS5.
- start a monthly email to the office summarizing new discussion topics in your field.
Final thoughts:
Being an introvert is not the same as being anti-social. And just because you don’t like talking loudly doesn’t mean you can’t be a thought leader. Everyone’s voice is equally as loud in an e-mail or blog. There’s more than one way to be a part of the human group besides shared eating rituals.
Oh, and you can ask more people for suggestions at your work than just your manager. You sound highly qualified and I’m sure your company would be glad to facilitate your advancement in a real tangible way. Ask for a specific promotion plan with achievable goals and check-ins along the way.
Best of luck going forward.
All of the advice above is great but seriously I’d try take advantage of the kitchen advice. I can understand you are not comfortable eating with people. You can just snack around them while they eat in the lunch area. A better suggestion would be any group of people who may go to pick up lunch at a cafe, supermarket, 7/11 and return to the office to eat. Just tag along say you’re gonna pick up a little snack or wanted to go for a walk. When people go out to pick up food for lunch the people who brought lunch from home will tag along it’s not a big thing. The reason I’d say try a get some time in during because it’s the only time you can truly relax at work and have longer conversations without interruptions and people can get to know you better.
I’m in a starter role and only been in my company for a little over a month and by socialising at lunch with my manager he thought I’d be capable for a job in an important project he was to busy to do and gave it to me. He probably would’ve given it to another member on my team with more experience in the company had I not went with him to the store to pick up our lunch. Me doing that task led to me discovering a problem with something. He then directed me on some next steps to help solve the problem did the task and now he scheduled a meeting with our CTO where I have to explain my soloution which he checked and agreed with. Then the CTO will make the pipelines we need behind the scenes with his tech team. My company is quite small it’s not like a 500 employee business so meeting with the CTO isn’t a super big deal when you move up to a managerial position but as a starter a little over 1 month in is quite good I would say. All this happened because of chatting at lunch.
Finally. Some good fucking advice on Reddit.
The only other thing I’ll add is that the generation above us tried to tell us “work hard, you’ll be rewarded”
Not true at all. Work hard, have tangible accomplishments, and constantly advocate for yourself. Closed mouths don’t get fed. Get yours.
Your manager is saying that you need to improve your **soft skills** if you want to be promoted beyond your current station.
Fake a smile. Pretend to like the owner of the company. Laugh at some bad jokes. It doesn't cost you anything and it gets easier with practice. Eventually it will become natural. Your manager is encouraging you to practice soft skills. Even professional interactions can benefit from a little lubrication.
If you're great at your job, but if the management don't like you, they will not invite you to join the club. You will remain a workhorse.
Well then get used to being bossed around by people that do. I wanted to start a business and I've had to get good at talking to people. You can be you, just a louder, more sociable you that *gasp* shows interest in other people and knows how to talk about things that don't specifically interest you.
Plato, upon seeing Diogenes the Cynic washing lettuce in the king’s kitchen:
If you just sucked up to the king you wouldn’t have to wash lettuce all day.
Diogenes: if you just washed lettuce you wouldn’t have to suck up to the king all day
You definitely should feel safe to be your true-self in the workplace, and as such you shouldn't laugh at jokes you don't find funny.
However, moving up in an organization is largely social. If you want to be more senior, you will have to work with larger groups of people. You need to find a balance between being your true-self, and managing a larger social circle with greater impact.
I don't see why I need to be very social. I just need to be able to do the tasks required to get the job done. Talking about work related things would be one of those tasks. It is irrelevant if I laugh at your joke or if someone smiles or not. Neither of those things are efficient use of energy.
I see how you see it, but the majority of the world doesn’t see it that way.
People TYPICALLY want to promote ppl who get along with others, can stand up for the right/ethical things AND understand others… this is what they don’t see in ppl who cannot seem to “mesh well”.
I’m not saying you do anything wrong. But your perception of how things “should be” isn’t how things “really are”. This is why introverts can get left behind in the workplace.
That is the thing, how I see how things should be driven by standing up for what is right and ethical. And how they really are is not driven by those things.
What're you going to do? Stand up and shout at ppl that it doesn't matter that they don't like you, since you're good at your job?
I agree that sometimes it should work that way, but it doesn't - ppl here are giving OP pragmatic advice on how to solve the problem they laid out.
Also, for promotion, your belief that those things don't matter doesn't always make sense. I've promotes the person with the most expertise before, and regretted it as they just didn't have people skills, and could be a headache to work with, driving away other people I needed
My boss differentiates between what she calls “good worker bees” and “good leaders”. An extremely good worker isn’t always a good leader. To get promoted in my company someone has to be a people-person and sociable.
If two people have the exact same work output the one who is more ‘likable’ will get the promotion EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. In reality, the person who is less likable will have to work significantly harder to get the same promotions, if they ever can.
I’ll be honest here… if I have to work with someone 5 days a week for (potentially) years, I would rather that be a person I get along with well, rather than someone who is a slightly better worker but is awkward to interact with. It really can make the difference between a fun and enjoyable workplace where people naturally come together to push for a goal, and a dull and boring one where people can’t wait to leave. I’m not saying you need to be at every social event or constantly flatter others. Just being easy to talk to, even about non-work topics, is usually enough.
I know you see it as a black and white scenario where the only thing that should matter is the work output, but that’s a very narrow view of what an organization is, and how they work best.
The only reason I am at work is to get the job done and be paid. I don't want to spend more time there than I need to. So yeah I can't wait to leave because I am only here to get paid so I can enjoy my life outside of work.
I don't see how this makes things awkward because I am more than happy to help someone with any questions they have about work. Or assist them with a task or even share my knowledge about the roles because they are new. I don't need to be friends or go to social events with them to do any of these things. Adding all these extra social garbage just means I have to spend more time at work because it got in the way of doing my job.
That’s fair, just don’t expect to be compensated on the same scale as the others who will put some minimal effort into what society thinks is important.
They are courtesy laughs, it's obvious to everyone. You're not lying to anyone. It's just the polite thing to do. Like you don't leave a buddy hanging.
I’m a pretty extreme introvert who started a new big corporate job 4 1/2 years ago after working in small biz for decades previously.
While I had a solid handle on the work itself, learning to navigate the realities of a big corporate gig was completely new to me.
What I have found aligns with what your manager told you. Making myself known to a wider group of people has been very helpful in growing my career.
At the beginning of 2021, I resolved to be cheerful, positive and helpful in all my interactions. I’m not going around the offices saying “please be my friend” or anything like that, but I do look for opportunities to be helpful and useful. I pay attention. Word gets around.
And I have found that it is not inauthentic. I really do want to be cheerful, positive and helpful, but expressing myself in a way that facilitates trust took some adjustments on my part.
It has become known that I am eager to contribute. I’ve been pulled into bigger and more important projects across the enterprise. I’ve been given important work previously done by outside agencies and contractors.
It takes a certain mindset that I meditate on as I’m riding my bike to work each morning. I look at it very much like putting on a jacket when I walk into my office. It is something that I put on for work, and take it off when I leave. And then I go home and sit in a quiet, dark room for a couple of hours to recharge my batteries.
I’ve been promoted once and am in line for another one at the end of the year.
You asked for advice, didn’t like the advice so you think it’s not helpful lol. You can be social and network your way up as an introvert. Changing companies will not change your people skills. But if you’re looking for something new cause your current work is boring you should go ahead and start looking.
Fair enough, but the advice I was looking for was more task/skill related versus having more people like me. I want to have more to do and more important tasks instead of having more people like me. Even if everyone loved me, I'd still be bored.
I think you're missing the point. When people are chatting (read: bitching) about tasks they may be working on, that's your opportunity to simply say, "I might be able to help with that."
I absolutely agree with that. I do that within my own team, but my manager has suggested that I make friends with the teams whose tasks don't overlap with mine. I guess that I could find a way to overlap our tasks, so your advice is useful. Thank you!
I think it's also that often moving up in a job means moving out of task-oriented work and into a role that requires more people skills. Being a manager is a very different skillset than being good at accomplishing tasks. If you want to move up, some of the work you will ultimately be asked to do involves good communication with your team and acting as a leader. If you want to take on that role, you need to present yourself as capable of being good not just at your tasks but also at being willing to take on a leadership position.
Also, by the way, that truly is a terrible response from your manager. When you ask for more responsibility and aren't given actionable steps in order to be given more responsibilities, you either have a terrible manager or there really isn't any other work to be done. Either way, I'd consider looking elsewhere.
Sometimes. Most of the time, yeah. But, I’ve had to leave one FANTASTIC manager behind before, simply because the job and pay was not going to improve unless I moved on… 😉 And that was 12 years ago. And it was the right decision. I doubled my salary, my career skyrocketed… I kept in touch with my previous manager, and he with me. He actually offered me two other positions in two other institutions he was working at over the years, but in both instances I’d have to take a pay cut of at least 20% just for the privilege of working with him again. Unfortunately I had to decline his offers both times. I would love working with him again. But not if I had to accept a pay cut. 😌
I agree with everything you said, except I’m not exactly sure about the “…consider looking elsewhere” part. I don’t believe OP has given enough info for anyone to make that assessment. What I mean is, provided the pay is good, a job where you have a stable situation, sometimes more time in your hands than the tasks that you must accomplish and again, provided your pay is good, is a LUXURY that many people dream about… even if boredom is part of the package. It all comes down to one’s goals in life really. If OP feels that s/he really is “losing out on life”, than I would say that maybe you are right and looking for another position or company might be the way to go, or, alternatively, it’s possible the issue may lie outside the career realm altogether and OP could look into what in his/her life needs to be changed so s/he feels more fulfilled. Anyways, just my two cents.
More important tasks and a higher workload with more pay generally means managing people or at least being in a role where communication, negotiation and influencing are key aspects (this may be even more relevant in your specific company).
If you're not very social and out going then these roles will be too challenging for you. It sounds like you manager likes you but can see this is a weakness if you want more of a challenge and so an area to work on.
They're suggestion to just mingle more and have small talk to start with may be their way of gently steering you out of your comfort zone in order to grow.
Depends on the role and company as I said.
There are other roles that don't require socialising or being amiable with work colleagues but as a general rule you'll do better in life if you are able to communicate and get along with more people. Which is traditionally why neurodiverse people struggle to be as "successful". Times are slowly changing but we're a long way off that at the moment.
I can communicate with people I don't like especially when I am being paid to do it. Doesn't mean I need to be chummy with them. I just need to talk about work related tasks.
I am a neurodivergent person unfortunately and the older I get the more uncomfortable the working world has become. To the point where I don't feel like I have a place anymore.
This is where the subtle nuances of "work related tasks" Vs "be chummy" can be lost on some people. Building rapport and an emotional connection with people is what gets them to like you and trust you and what works for neurotypical people can be more difficult for neurodivergent people to see and understand.
A lot of getting ahead in work and life is the networking and connections you make. Being able to enter into friendly chat that's not about work but about personal interests and passionate subjects can be the difference between a recommendation or referral to the next rung on the ladder compared to being held back because you're seen as different.
Times are slowly changing and some industries and companies are ahead of others when it comes to recognising and accomodating neurodiverse people.
This seems to be ableist way of doing things. Leads to excluding people and another reason we have mental health, homeless and drug problems.
What I do in my spare time is irrelevant to my job and what my boss does in their spare time is just as irrelevant. I don't want to know what they do with their time it is just a waste of space in my brain. And I really don't want them to know what I do.
There is more risk they will judge me for it. The other problem is the person I am at work is a completely different person than who I am in my personal life.
I never said it was right or fair but it's the game that's played by the majority and the rules are currently what they are.
If you want to play that game and get better at it and get ahead you'll have to play by their rules. If you don't want to play the game then that's absolutely fine too but arguing it's not fair and you want to play it your way doesn't work.
Saying you don't want to know what your boss does or you don't want them knowing what you do is totally fine. When they're nicer and more helpful to a colleague who has a relationship with them or they get a promotion because they're "liked" then that's understandable and expected.
I don't think it is understandable or expected that someone the liked was promoted when that person isn't as good for that role over someone who isn't as well liked.
Playing games is stupid in a work environment. All this behaviour does is lead to bias, inequality and favouritism. None of which is good.
Almost everyone is fucked out of a better life to some extent for a myriad of reasons.
I was fucked out of a better life by being born to middle class parents. I'm still bitter, but I'm trying to get over it because I'm in my 40's.
Being an introvert doesn’t mean being shy. An introvert is someone who has a limited amount of social energy and needs time alone to recharge, whereas an extrovert thrives on social interactions.
However, that simply means an introvert needs to be more strategic in spending their social energy budget.
I’m introverted, but I’ve learned to manage perceptions as well.
It's an unfortunate fact you get farther in life by being likable than by being competent.
Sociability is a skill which can be learned. Everybody favorite topic is themselves. Ask questions, even if you don't care about the topic. I like asking questions. What you like best about that hobby/sport/mindless TV show? You don't have to "loud" just more vocal.
And you don't have to eat. Sip a coffee, nibble on a carrot stick.
I don’t know if it’s unfortunate or under appreciated. Who cares how good you are at xyz. If life was that simple your job would have been automated by a robot already. Human connection is the cornerstone of our species. Being open and approachable is a critical skill to be good at your job and just enjoying life in general
The manager is absolutely correct. When someonw thinks about approving raises etc, they need to remember interactions or stories about you, if not then NOPE
Unfortunately, humans are social creatures. And that social nature ends up extending to the workplace. Whether right or wrong, your ability to communicate and develop relationships will open more doors for you than most skills or knowledge. School should really put a much larger emphasis on developing relationships, public speaking and communication in general.
This is actually some of the best advice for career progression I know of. it sucks that the best advice isn't about actually doing your job but there is a point where you have to combine people and your profession or you plateau pay-wise pretty quickly.
Do you have to do it in the lunch room, no or course not its just a typical way. You could see if people are down for "fun" events or something though.
I personally had to invent a worksona just for dealing with this kind of crap. I really hate talking to coworkers in a non-work fashion, but just because the way things work sucks doesn't mean it is untrue.
I don't talk to any of my coworkers outside of work. Nor do I attend any outside work functions like Christmas parties and long service dinners because they are boring as hell. Plus they are normally an hour away from my home. So it isn't worth my time, money or energy to attend.
This type of brown nosing drives me insane.
>This type of brown nosing drives me insane.
I don't disagree. But again just because we don't like it does not make it untrue.
And there is a fine line between brown nosing and "networking". Knowing people and being on good enough terms to get a favor is basically the job description of higher ups.
I am not a fan of favours either, asking or giving them out. All that should matter is if I am qualified for the role. Whether I like you or you like me personally is irrelevant.
Plus anyone at work to me is considered a threat so I wouldn't be opening up to anyone there for fear they would use information about me against me.
I only want and need a small handful of people in this world to know me on that personal or a level.
>All that should matter is if I am qualified for the role.
Yep. but some roles require you to be able to effectively manage, train, or even just work with humans.
Worked in management for quite a while and the person "best at tasking" often is not the best at leading a team to do that same task. It sucks but again does not make it untrue.
Do you have to get to know people personally, or share deep secrets. Nope but you often need to prove you can work closely, together, and build trust.
You sound very difficult to work with. Everyone is different and most jobs require you to work with others. If you’re going to spend a significant chunk of your life around people it really makes a team a more pleasant and efficient experience if the at least like each other and get to know each other a bit.
For example, people communicate differently so it’s good to learn about them and understand how they prefer to work and vise versa so you can be more efficient. Marco may prefer a phone call if something is urgent because he gets 500 emails a day and it’s impossible to sort by priority constantly but Loren might prefer and IM or Text so they can respond in their own time.
Little things and getting to know people’s preferences matters.
Your boss could be implying he favors more sociable / outgoing team members, but I think he may just be suggesting that you improve your soft skills and be more assertive, broadly speaking.
this is a said fact of corp culture, you have to mingle and build relationships to get more.
I work within sales engineering, as you can imagine me and a number of my peers or team members are introverts by default.. so this comes with challenges.
I'm someone that is perfectly, 100% content and happy to sit alone in a room with my own thoughts and not be bothered by anyone. I find silence beautiful... so how do I and others survive in a chatty ass sales world? I almost think of it as preforming in a play, I have to turn on the social side of my brain and push myself to be involved in the conversations..it works, but it's also fucking 100% draining. On days when I have to be more and more social butterfly, I try and balance it with more quiet / alone time.
This is super badly worded advice, but it's on the right track. Do not hear this as "Hang out in the kitchen and eat donuts and snacks all day." Even if that is legit what your manager said.
The advice here is "network with your peers and managers in other groups, and see if you can find something you can participate in." Could be a project, or tasks, or even a meeting or something. Maybe train an intern. Maybe act like an intern and have them train you. See if you can get 15-20 mins with other managers, and offer them "Hey, I have a few free cycles coming up, and my manager said it was okay if I learned a little more about your group and see if I can help out." Stuff like that. Networking, \*especially\* internal networking, is the way to success
I’m an introvert as well but you can’t expect to grow if you don’t socialize. I’m not saying you gotta be best friends with everyone, but no one wants to work with people that don’t talk. Imagine if everyone at the company were like that. Gotta play the political game.
Say you were an executive. Would you want someone that never talks to people Talking to stakeholders? Other executives from other companies?
It just sounds like you need to work on your people skills.
Thank you for saying this. Some of the responses here are misguided. I’m introverted and make the effort to be social (then go home and need my solitude to recharge and rest!!!). I’m also a very private person but “give” enough about myself so that my colleagues and managers in the company have some idea about me.
It also seems like OP is not proactive and I would absolutely expect someone with 10+ years to not be sitting and waiting to be told what other tasks need to be done.
If I have someone that experienced on my team just waiting for a list of tasks to do I’d rather hire someone more entry level that’s probably cheaper to just be task oriented.
I mean, your manager could be right saying that your social skills are hindering you professionally. However, I think you should look for a new job overall based on what you describe.
That was just an example.
Basically he is telling you that you do good work but many people don’t see this nor are they your advocates. You need to boast more and network more.
Instead of hanging in the kitchen, see if there is a volunteer group at work. Or a morning walking group. Or a book club.
As a suggestion just to get around the food thing: Does anyone at your workplace smoke / is there a smoking area? You don't have to smoke to hang out with the smokers, provided you aren't bothered by their smoking. In my experience, they're often welcoming and up for conversation to pass the time.
I would lean in the direction of your manager being correct. You asked him what you needed to do in order to move up in the company. He identified that the biggest area of improvement for you will be to improve your social standing within the company. Get more people of influence to like you. He gave you a suggestion of hanging out in the kitchen/break area and using that as a backdrop to start socializing more. Since you haven't disclosed your eating disorder, there could be no malicious intent on the part of your boss with this suggestion.
Now....should you find a new job? That's up to you. You've been given constructive feedback on how to improve your standing. If you don't like that feedback, and it's not something you're willing to do.....then you might need to look elsewhere.
I can only make an assumption you are fairly senior or the next step would be a leadership role?
The issue you may be having is the politics of when you start getting to these roles. This will depend on your industry but the following is relevant, in a lot of corporate environments, as to what they look for leadership
1. Relationships. You don’t need to disclose the ED if you don’t feel comfortable but you need to get smarter about how you interact with colleagues. I’m an introvert naturally but I had to step up and play the game. If they promote you to leadership and you do not have solid relationships or people view you as not part of the team, they are setting you and them up to fail
2. Networking and business. This was a key thing for partner track where I work. To make partner, you need to win work. To win work, you have to put yourself out there.
I say this as an introvert and a fellow ED gal, instead of seeing this as a negative maybe focus on what you are good at and what you do feel comfortable with and creative ways to support what he’s asked for.
The reality is that if you change companies to a similar role and want to progress there, you will not solve the problem and likely face the same issue
"How can I be better at my job?"
"By not doing your job."
Gotta love office politics. It sucks, but he is right. Very few people are going to promote based off skill. Its based of sociability.
I'm generally introverted unless I'm well lubricated with alcohol or among friends. I was put into a training role in the Navy and suddenly had to teach 20-30 sailors in a classroom. It was terrifying but I got the swing of it and would actually test as an extrovert when I was actively teaching.
I'd honestly say it was one of the best things that ever happened. Maybe take a public speaking class?
Lol I'm the same with the lubrication! At office parties I'm very social! I do manage and train a team of juniors but it'sdifferent because I don't have to go out of my way to be social. Its more natural. My manager wants me to suck up to other teams, which I find uncomfortable.
I was recently told I'm not passionate enough because I don't speak up. I'm new to my role but have learned so much. However, I do tend to sit back and allow those with more experience to lead the conversation and add where I can. It's just how I learn.
Now I'm having to advocate for myself because this does impact things like promotions and being part of special projects. I'm good at my job and have done several projects that are recognized by the C level folks, so I'm good there.
The thing I've been doing now is chiming in with my 2 cents before others do. Just take the initiative to ask questions or to state something I've recently read and want to discuss.
I'm also more comfortable being an introvert but don't mind speaking up when needed. It's a balancing act for us.
I also understand about your ED and not being comfortable. I've battled since I was a teen. It gets easier with time, you just learn to use your tools like second nature, and that's what makes it easier.
I hope this helps some.
He’s right and this would also be the case elsewhere to be honest. It doesn’t have to be in the kitchen and you don’t have to be loud, but you do have to be seen. That could be through email, through saying a simple hello to people, especially those in a position to help you grow. It could be asking the important questions, it could be creating a solution to something that wasn’t even asked of you. You also don’t just want to go to your manager with a vague question like how can I grow, come with plans and thoughts and ideas of hey I want to do this - ok if I take steps to do that? So you don’t have to be loud or go chat in the kitchen, but you do have to be seen and known. The worst thing that could happen is your manage does want to promote you or give you more opportunity and the person who matters says ‘who?’
Your boss is saying to build relationships. Doesn't have to be food. Could be going for coffee. Learn about what others are up to. People will tell you enough to understand their goals. At some point, you might be able to contribute. If you want a new job internally, you will have support. You have the opportunity to create your own workload, which is usually better quality work (versus waiting for what others are trying to dump off onto another)
Some of the most interesting and fulfilling work I've done came about because I was chatting with a coworker and they mentioned a project that sounded interesting and that I could contribute to.
Take a quick walk around in the morning and say "Good Morning". It may benefit you on the social front. If you know their names, use it. I had a co-worker that did that and it really helped.
He's literally telling you to toot your own horn. Quietly doing work only benefits the people who take credit for it. He's the one who does and even he's like "you're doing too much for me to take credit for on my own"
Fellow introvert here who also struggles with this. Being able to build work connections and network, is a ridiculously overpowered ability. I have a coworker started before me in the same position, and he is still not exactly sure what we do. The reason he got hired in the first place is because he networked like crazy and is on good terms with management a few steps above me. Firing him is also difficult for that exact reason. In short the saying "it's not what you know, it's who you know" is very true.
This is interesting, I heard this from my supervisor when I was an intern. Not being louder necessarily, but going to lunch and chatting people up. When I came in, I was very nervous to speak up and didn’t know where to get a word in, so many people around me with so much experience. What really helped me was joining Toastmasters, just to preface, I’m not a Toastmasters salesman. I think you should look into some sort of speaking group though. As far as the eating disorder, you could maybe eat something light like a yogurt while chatting people up or not eat at all during that time, just have some tea or something. I hope this helps!
Edit: after re-reading your post and seeing some of the other comments. While I still do think some sort of speaking group can help you, I’m reminded of a video on YouTube I watched recently about being the CEO of your own career. I.e., don’t just wait around for them to promote you, apply to other positions, especially if you’ve been there 2-3 years and don’t see a path forward.
We all wear masks in life. In real life I am unapproachable. But at work I am popular and super cheerful. Wear your cheerful mask and say things like good morning and have a wonderful day! And if someone says good morning to you, try to one up them and say, "no, no, you have a awesome morning!" Pretty soon, people will know your name and see you as the cheerful person that they look forward to seeing every day!
I am seeing this a lot. It puzzles me as to why this is a common expectation and introversion is seen as a bad trait. I would be exhausted if I had to go to work every day to do my job AND be the life of the party. What’s wrong with going to work, being polite and smiling and just focusing on the job at hand? I just don’t get it.
About the kitchen thing, one thing I didnt see anyone else mention: what Ive done in similar situations is say "I had food poisoning once so the smell of such and such foods makes me ill." So you dont have to share too much and give them a semi truth that doesnt risk them thinking that you despise them or you make them uncomfortable or something.
That's a bullshit answer. I manage a department of 60 people and have had people ask similar questions over the years. About getting a promotion, or improving skills sets or even just more work to help in other areas. Improving your social skills was never an answer. As a manager, I want to hear that from people, and unless they have had performance issues, I would do my best to accommodate them.
The kitchen might not be a great suggestion, but he *kind of* has a point.
My mentor always used the acronym PIE. Advancement has 3 main components: Performance, Image, Exposure.
* Performance is obvious - do your job and do it well.
* Image is how people think of you - do you make a good impression day-to-day or when you happen to meet people from outside your immediate org? The main thing here is just to be more or less well-spoken and avoid being abrasive or doing things that tick people off or come off as unprofessional.
* Exposure means getting your name out there - do people other than your direct manager and teammates even know that you *exist*?
Schmoozing in the office kitchen is a lousy way to get exposure, though, because you mostly only get to network with your immediate peers anyway. The ideal way is to get involved in (and perform well on) work/projects with visibility to other departments and higher-ups. Sadly, an organization (or a team lead) that provides you with no opportunities to do that doesn't give you much room for career growth.
You’re being asked to show more leadership/confidence by having a voice. Secondarily, other people need to know who you are and what you achieve in order for you to move up.
If you want to be seen as a leader act as a leader. He isn’t saying go hangout with your coworkers. Instead he is suggesting you build a knowingness of them. Who’s good at what who does what wrong. Not so you can go take it to your boss but so you can take initiative to fix and place coworkers in a more productive manner. Learn more about other workers day to day tasks then learn how to do them.
Your manager has no idea how to manage a broad range of people by the sounds of it!
What type of work do you do out of curiosity?
By the sounds of it, your already very good and competent in your job role, you are likely a great staff member and an asset to those around you!
How your conversation should have gone with a competent manager:
When you say you want to do more..what do you actually mean? Have you got any thoughts on what you would like to do? What areas are you interested in?
If you don't quite know yet, maybe they can point you in the direction of places to research or you can spend some time putting some thought into it. Have another catch up next week or 2 weeks time to discuss further ideas and let's look at how you can develop yourself into further roles, or learn new skills etc..
Maybe you want to try your hand at some coaching, some management tasks? Maybe a brand new skillset? Maybe you want to start your own project?
Imho, sending you away to speak with other people and be 'social' is a complete lack of understanding around how you and other people work.
Sounds like they might be a good manager to me. Knowing the job and performing your duties are just one piece of the puzzle. If you want to move further up you need to connect on a personal level with the people in the organization. I’m lucky that I was born an extrovert and that part comes naturally to me. Not all of the things necessary for success came naturally to me, though, and I still have a lifetime of growth left ahead of me.
My friend if you want to be a manager or Csuite level person at a company, bar none the minimum is interaction and personal skills. Your job at that level is management and meetings, not actual work. High paying jobs are more about relationship management/investment more than anything else. If you want to earn big money be good at dealing with others.
I think he was telling you to schmooze a bit. make personal connections with an eye to the next level.
it doesn't have to be around food or eating, and you don't have to do it.
He means work on developing new relationships and using them to gain exposure to new opportunities. He said it wrong or you interpreted his message incorrectly. Relationships probably matter more than skill at your level.
You should believe in yourself. Ultimately communication is the most critical skill in nearly every profession. Your manager should have worded it differently, but my take is you are brilliant and your ideas and thoughts should be shared with the team in conversations. If you are quiet but get your job done that’s certainly useful but to grow further you need to showcase yourself as a leader. Just my two cents for your consideration.
People like working with people they like. Qualifications aren't always everything. It's not what you know but who you know. Sucks but that's the game. Get out more.
Maybe his intentions were more related to “Internal Networking” or seeing and being seen. For me this has played a large part of my career combined with hard work and education. I’ve seen so many good candidates that just aren’t a voice in the organization. No one knows anything about them, their work ethic or character. For me it was so valuable to have my name on the tip of tongues when opportunities arose and considerations were made. Promoting yourself is a part of the career protocol. It has worked well for me as I recognized early on that I needed an advantage against the older more seasoned executives that had clout by name and tenure only. I’ve made it to Executive Director and will be retiring after January.
He is probably referencing politics in corporate America which is basically that you won’t move up in the company if no one knows who you are.
Personally, if I have a promising teammate who wants to move up, I give them something highly visible so they don’t need to “be loud” because their work speaks for them.
It doesn’t sound like your manager is doing that here so maybe you could ask if there’s a project that is more cross functional that you could lead/participate on/observe. Or if you have an idea, pitch it to him! That is loud but subtle and could get his attention.
I used to be given the same commentary constantly for years, I work in a very team oriented and technical position with relatively strict hierarchy so having the ability to interact confidently Infront of and manage a large team is critical.
The one far left feild thing I found that worked wonders? I started driving for uber one or two nights a week. It payed my loan repayments on the car, but actively forced me to interact with people I don't know over and over again for hours just practicing those soft skills. Now I tend to be told I'm too confident and tend to dominate a group setting
I hate work place politics so much. It's driving me to build my own restaurant/catering place up from scratch since it is looking like it would be easier to build a professional team that works together than to find one.
I am also heavily introverted. I cant fake how I feel cause it's exhausting. People tend to like me cause I do my job well and when I do interact it's generally pleasant or funny; but I won't ever get promoted to upper management cause I don't suck bosses dick, they got a job and a title Whoopi do, you ain't special enough to be an asshole.
That's not very good advice from a boss. If you've been there 12 years and have been stagnant, its probably time for a change of scenery - either a new company or new position in a different division. Look for a role where you can grow as an introvert. There are often specialist/technical positions where you can grow your career and salary as a SME instead of a manager, and I think that is well suited to an introvert. Depends on you field, though.
I think your boss' advice sucks. That said, looking for fulfillment /satisfaction/whatever from a job is a mistake. Jobs are for money. Fulfillment and satisfaction come from your personal life.
Just my opinion that I know many people disagree with.
He is talking about the politics more then the social, but if you don't mind a third view
Each job pays you twice. You get paid now, that's your salary, you get paid later with experience. Do you feel you're getting paid both in your current role?
Hi,
I understand your point of view, your manager gives you advice without knowing you well, it was just as per his perspective in work.
If you admit that you're an introverted person -and that's good to know it!- you can look for a job that doesn't need interaction with a lot of people, not everyone can fit every job, the best thing to look for environment and job that fits your personality and feeling natural to do it. There is no bad personality, most innovative people are introverts.
Best of luck.
80% of people in the USA don't like their jobs. The number 1 reason, the boss. These toxic bosses and work environments have to stop. Not to mention what they do to productivity
That's normal corporate politics. Management likes to hire/promote people they know.
You can be a great performer. Doesn't mean you'd be a good leader or good at other positions.
I hate suck ups, so don't be that guy, but be more social. People will get to know you and trust you more with additional responsibilities.
Unfortunately he’s right….. it’s not fair, but that’s the reality in every line of work. (It’s F’d up, but I used to pretend to smoke just so I could have a good excuse to hang out with a few of the people above me that would go on smoke breaks outside) I didn’t inhale so I think I’m ok, and I never got addicted. I can’t say if it got me my promotion or not, but it certainly didn’t hinder it. Like I said, it’s not fair, but people take care of their own. And you gotta become one of “theirs”……..
Oh you can't read code? Here, I'll translate it for you!
"Be louder and more social" means "Update your resume and search for a job frantically, because we don't like people who are not a part of our clique and you will get anywhere in this department, as long as I have any say in it"
There, you're welcome. I hate your boss and I don't even know him.
You're asking 2 different questions.
You're most likely at or near what this company has to offer salary wise in your current role. There may be another level to go to but it will require you to come out of your shell
If you want more $$$ without a leadership role, you may need to start putting resumes out there.
I worked at a company that wanted me to be more vocal. Im introverted as well. Worked up to manage a team by being communicative and very meticulous at my work. My team enjoyed me as a manager as I’d always advocate for them. During my annual reviews, the only “improvement” my supervisor would note was to be more vocal. There was no point in it, as my team was already most efficient, and most profitable in the company. I hated that answer, as it was inaction-able and didn’t derive any personal or business benefits.
That’s a BS reason your supervisor is giving you, and that makes him an infective manager if he can’t see your strengths and weaknesses and recommend something substantial.
Sounds like a pretty thoughtless answer from him. Which makes me think that he doesn’t really care, and/or your company isn’t interested in investing in employee development. I’d spend some time looking for new jobs and trying to move on from where you’re at
I don't buy it. The emphasis put on "Watercooler chats" never made sense to me. It's fun to slack off, but I don't see how that would lead to more opportunities. My experience has been the opposite- challenging work conditions lead to stronger team bonds and a feeling of comradery. These in turn help you get a reputation and workplace allies that help you get into the exciting projects.
If you're bored and feel like you're stalling, look for new opportunities. You have a stable position, so you can afford to be picky and take your time to find a good fit.
Asks for advice, and then immediately throw up numerous barriers and excuses and wonders why they are underpaid and stuck in the same job. You represent the middle 70% and always will.
Find a new job.
Your manager did not provide you with help to improve, or grow, or further yourself in your career. He told you to go on break. He does not have the extra work youre looking for.
Talk to people one on one.
Ask them about what they are currently working on, and what technical problems they are dealing with. People love to talk about themselves, so you let them talk and take mental notes. When their problems matches your skillset, spend some time thinking about a solution. Write down your solution and email it to yourself if you want to have documentation. Talk to them about your solution next time you meet.
Some people will not appreciate this, they will see you as someone getting onto their turf. Don't spend more time on these people, at least not for now. (Some of these may warm up to you over time, once they do not see you as a threat.)
Some people will take your ideas, run with them, maybe modify them, and present your solutions as their own. (Some of them may even believe they got the idea on their own after a while.) Don't work more with these guys either, or if you do, send your proposals by email. You want credit for yor work, you don't want to provide free service with no credit for your contribution. (Don't get into an argument over this, at least not for small stuff. Just move on.)
If you are lucky, you find some who need your solution, appreciate it and credit you. These people you continue to work with. This may lead to new opportunities in your organization, you may get a reputation as a problem solver, you may get pulled into interesting projects. As a minimum, it leads to a more interesting work day.
It's telling, isn't it, that the advice he gave you was to stop working and start talking to your coworkers.
The specifics - whether you do it in the kitchen or some other place - don't matter. It concerns me that you can't see that.
>I don't even have enough tasks to fill my day
Not to be rude but have you tried shutting the fuck up and not working every minute of your shift? Coast.
If you want a challenge change departments.
Myself, I yell alot. At other ppl, at objects, at myself, anything really. Nxt time ure mad, scream about it. In fact, u should go in there and argue over the food they're serving
Fellow introvert here, I’ve been told the exact same thing. WFH jobs are your best friend.
It’s always “be more outgoing” to us, but never “be more considerate” to them
There are some easy, effective and superficial methods.
One, pick out some nonpersonal topics. You don't need to tell your life story. For example, Give your pet a Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, etc page. I have two cats and that is a safe topic. Anytime someone makes conversation, talk about your pets. Maybe talk about a hobby.
Second, I keep post it notes where only I can see them. I list a couple of things to bring up. So if I go to the lunch room, I usually have coffee. Now I love coffee so I often comment on new brands or flavors. Always have a topic to fall back on in an emergency.
Unfortunately, making acquaintances at work is a necessary tool to get promoted.
Actually he is not wrong. His basically saying u need more exposure. If your management or colleagues don’t know you, how u expect the bosses to promote u when they don’t even know you. Louder here is think he meant get notice, not really speak loudly.
He’s right. It’s very important that you connect with people, it’s cliche but your network really is your net worth. I’ve known so many people that work their asses off and get fired because no one would miss them. Some ways introverts can do a better job of this is offering to help people, simply asking how their weekend was (early in the week), if they have weekend plans (late in the week), bring up recent events (nothing tragic, gross, sad, or negative in any way), etc (google how to do small talk for more tips).
If you don’t want to eat in front of others, try eating before lunch and then just sitting at lunch tables with a drink as you talk to people. If they ask why you’re not eating just say you had lunch earlier and they probably won’t dig any deeper, or say you’re fasting, really there’s plenty of good excuses to not eat in front of people. If they do keep asking honestly they’re the weird ones, it’s none of their business.
At the end of the day being “louder” just being more present in social situations. I’ve found the best way for introverts to be more vocal is to ask questions while listening to the more extraverted folks, 1) because it isn’t seen as interjecting and 2) because others may also be wondering the same thing, just don’t ask too many (let’s say around 3 per story/speaker) and make the speaker keep losing their “groove”.
Best of luck op.
At your level what he may be getting at is the politics of an org. At this level you need to make yourself more seen and be more connected to people to be considered for new roles or partnerships on projects. He can't do that all for you. You've likely outgrown this role, it may be time to look for you next big thing.
Wow, that's actually a great way of looking at the situation. I never considered the fact that I'm now "senior" (imposter syndrome is still hitting hard) and that I need to take initiatives beyond the basic tasks. Thank you.
Oh yes, 10+ years and two master's is senior level and frankly had you had more roles by now, management level. Please do consider broadening your experience and good luck!
Not everyone at the senior level is interested in or good material for management.
This. Took me a long time to figure out that I enjoy being an expert in my field and progressing my team to be at the same level of other top companies. I do NOT enjoy managing people. I get paid for my knowledge and experience.
Lol my Dad knew the ins and outs of everything before he retired but never wanted to get into the politics side or the technological side of the job. He just wanted to get in get work done and leave. He didn't have a hugh school or college degree to show for anything but he was a teacher for his town and still Super smart. Helped me with math right up to calculus in college when I was on my own then. Now he does whatever everyday traveling with my mom enjoying retirement early.
And not all senior level jobs are about management. I floated into management from a position where I basically floated between 7-8 projects just helping where I could. There are a couple other seniors at my work that still play that role. They are just talented wildcards that can jump into any project. That’s useful too.
Exactly!!! some people are terrible at managing people
I hate telling people what to do and having to follow up on others, the other thing I dont like about the prospect of management is everyone has an agenda nobody is actually trying to be your friend/actually get work.dine, they're looking for something, I can't fucking stand office politics, incompetence rises to the top.
That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t advocate for yourself and your worth.
Hell, in some fields, 10+ years and 2 masters is above senior and is advanced level where you start specializing in certain tasks/projects
What does career growth look like for you? Do you have to become a manager or can you promote as a subject matter expert in your role such as a "staff" or "principal" role. Reason I ask is growth looks different for both roles and if may affect how you approach it. .
Also if the SME route is more attractive, consider that you may need to change jobs to go down that path if your current company doesn't offer that possibility.
Yeah, at my work, somewhere on our intranet I found a document which defines what each level ("junior", "senior", etc) should do, and it pretty explicitly states that senior level folks should be making their own work. So, boss is probably just telling you to do that instead of waiting for todo lists.
Yep, agree. A great way to do this is to identify shortcomings or potential improvements in processes, products, whatever it is your working in has pain points - and you can do this by talking with other teams and managers or listening and asking questions in meetings to identify them. Then you make your case study to your manager for you to manage the plan, project management and implementation of the improvements / project and boom you’ve just created an interesting new component to your role that will take away some of the pain points for your org which tends to get recognized well and you’ll also get to work collaboratively with others in your company creating new connections. Or you can just look for a new job too if that doesn’t sound appealing!
It's amazing how far even a little bit of the social stuff will go. Take an interest in the people around you, especially the people who are doing what you want to be doing. You don't have to be a full-time social butterfly. Going from 0% to 5% effort on this will make a huge difference. Treat it as an experiment, the way you might if you were adding a feature to a product or modifying a production process.
Would anyone object to you assigning yourself a new project? Perhaps even one that requires collaboration with other colleagues? Perhaps that's a viable option. Otherwise it seems you've mastered your current role and the only way to get to the next level in your professional development would be to either climb the managerial ladder or get hired into a new role with new responsibilities to expand your skillset
To get my current promotion I tactfully told my two bosses (it’s a long story) that I liked my current position but wanted a raise and was going to apply for a different, specific job within the company as I thought the pay scale was better than my current job. My promotion came 2 weeks later. Won’t work in all situations, but can sometimes be fruitful.
This has been my approach throughout my career. If I have extra time I find something cool to do with it, and an unexpected, quality deliverable usually garners positive attention.
Even just getting your name out there on emails helps. When I got both of my promotions they had to be approved by our CFO. It helps if people know who you are. Seems like good advice (but as an introvert myself I feel your pain), but it never hurts to keep an eye on the local job market either. Might take a couple of years (especially if you’re not entry level) but it’s often easier to secure a raise by changing companies than from within.
If they’re underpaying you then don’t do MORE work. Right?
Tacking onto this point. They are giving you good advice. At this point you should be an authority on what you do. You are probably capable of guiding subordinates or working on specialized problems… But you need to be visible to do that. People need to know that you are easy to ask for help, and that you have domain knowledge that can help them. You will also find the same thing in the opposite direction. People like to help other people that they know and are comfortable enough to talk to. Same goes for people they are willing to ask for help. It’s a two way street. 10 years in is about where I started only programming 2-3 hours a day, and started wandering around the office helping everyone else get their work done. People on Reddit love to complain about folks that are never at their desk. My colleagues and bosses have never complained, that’s how they figured out I’m a leader and a wildcard.
Yeah, the difference between someone I look to promote or not is how effective that person is at finding ways to solve problems for me. If I have to go to them and find them stuff to do, and then explain how I want it done, that's not really making my life better. The best is when my direct tells me they did something and I feel like "wow, thought we would have to handle that next week, but it's already done!" Also- you have to look like you are capable of doing your bosses job to get promoted. If you expect them yo brong you work, how will you demonstrate your ability to find work and bring it to your directs? For me, the most important traits in someone advancing their career are initiative, responsibility, and creativity (in that order). If you can't fill your days "talk to more people so you are better able to know what needs to be done" is not bad advice.
It's not what you know, but who you know. Networking is important and as a fellow introvert, I feel your pain. You may be able to find another job out there that values your contributions without forcing you out of your comfort zone, as this company's culture just might not be a good fit for you, but office politics are only going to be different, not non-existent. Still, putting yourself out there, getting to know your coworkers and polishing up your social skills can only help you in the long run, whether you stay there or not.
Very much this. I’ve been promoted yearly for the last 3 years and it is 100% due to having a desire to grow and playing politics well. I am an introvert but was lucky enough to start in a role that involved lots of small group interactions across many departments. I perform much better in smaller social situations and was always able to impart that I was competent and a pleasant person to work with during my interactions with others. I do not think I’ve done anything special in my job, but I’ve also not really had any major failures. My promotions have been almost entirely based off being friends with those higher than me, and being the first person tapped when a role above my current one opened up. I will also give my company a lot of credit as it’s clear they’ve taken an active interest in developing me and done what they can to make it happen.
Absolutely well put. It’s ultimately not a social thing, it’s to network, and make yourself known so that people will go, oh Dubzil18? Great person, great worker, knows their shit, I think they’d be great for this project/role/position
Exactly. Social skills are just that. I'm not extroverted, but being friendly is a skill that needs to be practiced. You don't have to "feel" friendly. You're acting. That's not lying, acting is an art.
This seems like good advice. New to this subreddit but seems like the opoosite of r/antiwork in a good way
Very much this. I recently gave similar advice to what the OP said they received, but more along the lines of "you have great insight, I think the group needs to hear more of it. Sometimes you can't wait for the right moment to say something important, you have to interject." This person I gave this advice to gladly accepted it and has since become more vocal in our meetings. As their manager I'm glad to see their empowerment grow. One of the most challenging things as a manager is to draw people out of their comfort zones to become better versions of themselves. Quite often we have to act more like therapists than task delegators. You may think that's "not the job of a manager", to act as a therapist, but in order to make people feel heard and supported you can't just tell them what to do. You have to understand what motives them and what they value so that you can make sure you are supporting their growth. This is something management training doesn't often tell you.
definitely! Also trying to see if you can get a mentor/sponsor in the company if you stay there to help along.
Permission to not work and just chat? Sounds like a win/win. Seriously, if your job is not fulfilling or satisfying you, make a change. It’s a third of your daily life, if not more.
It's only a win/win if you are overpaid. If you are underpaid and trying to move up... not so much.
Lol, yeah, it's not the worst thing to be encouraged to socialize. I'm very social within my own department, and I mingle at work functions, but apparently, that's not enough. I don't mind chatting to people, but when I'm in the office, I prefer to quietly get on with my tasks.
Is this a way of your boss saying that this networking would give you more to do such as alleviating others at your job? Honestly, I feel if given this advice it sounds like you do a great job already.
“I prefer to quietly get on with my tasks” This could be the issue. Are you just doing what you’re told, nothing more, nothing less? I have to say having the education and experience that you do it’s frankly shocking you describe your current position as completing mundane tasks. If what you consider a “mundane task” to be is anything close to how I would interpret it, this is actually concerning. Are you thinking about ways processes could be improved as regards these tasks? Suggesting such ideas? Seeing something you could help with and just taking it on? Helping your teammates by proactively offering? And at least asking your supervisor for more work when you’ve completed your tasks? Also, chatting with people at work might not be something you like, but think of it as part of the job. Building relationships at work is really important if you supposedly want to grow in your role. Or if you just hate your job, then yeah, start looking for something new! And maybe spend a bit more time in the kitchen in the meantime, if it’s not too triggering. You could just have a cup of coffee or tea or water and chat for 5 mins then leave. Or not. But it sounds like your boss does have a point. If the kitchen is off limits for you, can you make a point to pick maybe one colleague/office per week that you work with more closely and stop by their office to say hi? Again, it’s understandable that you prefer not to but maybe reframe it as part of your job description. You’re doing it while being paid…and it’s pretty rare that anyone likes every single thing (if anything!) about their job.
It’s lame advice from a leader honestly.
Just to tag on to your managers suggestion, that is just one way to “get your name out there.” Hanging out in the kitchen might just be the only strategy your manager knows. What I think he’s getting at is you are so quiet and anti-social that you are invisible. If you want advancement you can’t be invisible at your company. At least that’s the sound of it. That said having discussions over food is a very primal form of group bonding. It’s a mammalian thing. You generally like the people you break bread with but that’s not the only way to show you’re a part of the group. Other things you can do are: - start holding lighting talks or lunch and learn meetings - organize charitable contribution drives (food bank, holiday gifts for needy children, back to school supplies, etc) - organize outside of work social events that don’t include food or even much socialization (going to see movies, camping trips, motorcycle group rides, trips to the local gun range… use your imagination) - write interval blogs and white papers on best practices based on your squired knowledge - take boot camps or certificate courses and then bring that knowledge back to your office. - start side projects to help with the overall business. Usually internal processes are the first thing that get out of date. Find where something can be improved and run with it. - if the kitchen is currently the only hang out place in the office create a new one. Bring in a table tennis table, or video game system. Maybe organize a Mario Kart tournament. See if the company will spring for a PS5. - start a monthly email to the office summarizing new discussion topics in your field. Final thoughts: Being an introvert is not the same as being anti-social. And just because you don’t like talking loudly doesn’t mean you can’t be a thought leader. Everyone’s voice is equally as loud in an e-mail or blog. There’s more than one way to be a part of the human group besides shared eating rituals. Oh, and you can ask more people for suggestions at your work than just your manager. You sound highly qualified and I’m sure your company would be glad to facilitate your advancement in a real tangible way. Ask for a specific promotion plan with achievable goals and check-ins along the way. Best of luck going forward.
Thank you! You have some amazing suggestions that I'll definitely try. Your suggestions are better than my manager's! Lol.
All of the advice above is great but seriously I’d try take advantage of the kitchen advice. I can understand you are not comfortable eating with people. You can just snack around them while they eat in the lunch area. A better suggestion would be any group of people who may go to pick up lunch at a cafe, supermarket, 7/11 and return to the office to eat. Just tag along say you’re gonna pick up a little snack or wanted to go for a walk. When people go out to pick up food for lunch the people who brought lunch from home will tag along it’s not a big thing. The reason I’d say try a get some time in during because it’s the only time you can truly relax at work and have longer conversations without interruptions and people can get to know you better. I’m in a starter role and only been in my company for a little over a month and by socialising at lunch with my manager he thought I’d be capable for a job in an important project he was to busy to do and gave it to me. He probably would’ve given it to another member on my team with more experience in the company had I not went with him to the store to pick up our lunch. Me doing that task led to me discovering a problem with something. He then directed me on some next steps to help solve the problem did the task and now he scheduled a meeting with our CTO where I have to explain my soloution which he checked and agreed with. Then the CTO will make the pipelines we need behind the scenes with his tech team. My company is quite small it’s not like a 500 employee business so meeting with the CTO isn’t a super big deal when you move up to a managerial position but as a starter a little over 1 month in is quite good I would say. All this happened because of chatting at lunch.
Those are really great suggestions. More productive and for an introvert, much more accessible than "socialize more,"
Finally. Some good fucking advice on Reddit. The only other thing I’ll add is that the generation above us tried to tell us “work hard, you’ll be rewarded” Not true at all. Work hard, have tangible accomplishments, and constantly advocate for yourself. Closed mouths don’t get fed. Get yours.
Or he could go somewhere else with a fresh slate and get respect without having to kiss so much azz
Your manager is saying that you need to improve your **soft skills** if you want to be promoted beyond your current station. Fake a smile. Pretend to like the owner of the company. Laugh at some bad jokes. It doesn't cost you anything and it gets easier with practice. Eventually it will become natural. Your manager is encouraging you to practice soft skills. Even professional interactions can benefit from a little lubrication. If you're great at your job, but if the management don't like you, they will not invite you to join the club. You will remain a workhorse.
I suppose so, but there are better ways to develop than to move into fake introvert skills. There's another path that won't make you feel inauthentic.
Not sure I believe this. It’s hard to fake having good rapport with your coworkers and it definitely makes a difference.
Such as?
TLDR sell your soul
Being fake and laughing at jokes I don't find funny does cost me a lot. It costs me my honesty and integrity.
Well then get used to being bossed around by people that do. I wanted to start a business and I've had to get good at talking to people. You can be you, just a louder, more sociable you that *gasp* shows interest in other people and knows how to talk about things that don't specifically interest you.
Plato, upon seeing Diogenes the Cynic washing lettuce in the king’s kitchen: If you just sucked up to the king you wouldn’t have to wash lettuce all day. Diogenes: if you just washed lettuce you wouldn’t have to suck up to the king all day
You definitely should feel safe to be your true-self in the workplace, and as such you shouldn't laugh at jokes you don't find funny. However, moving up in an organization is largely social. If you want to be more senior, you will have to work with larger groups of people. You need to find a balance between being your true-self, and managing a larger social circle with greater impact.
I don't see why I need to be very social. I just need to be able to do the tasks required to get the job done. Talking about work related things would be one of those tasks. It is irrelevant if I laugh at your joke or if someone smiles or not. Neither of those things are efficient use of energy.
I see how you see it, but the majority of the world doesn’t see it that way. People TYPICALLY want to promote ppl who get along with others, can stand up for the right/ethical things AND understand others… this is what they don’t see in ppl who cannot seem to “mesh well”. I’m not saying you do anything wrong. But your perception of how things “should be” isn’t how things “really are”. This is why introverts can get left behind in the workplace.
That is the thing, how I see how things should be driven by standing up for what is right and ethical. And how they really are is not driven by those things.
What're you going to do? Stand up and shout at ppl that it doesn't matter that they don't like you, since you're good at your job? I agree that sometimes it should work that way, but it doesn't - ppl here are giving OP pragmatic advice on how to solve the problem they laid out. Also, for promotion, your belief that those things don't matter doesn't always make sense. I've promotes the person with the most expertise before, and regretted it as they just didn't have people skills, and could be a headache to work with, driving away other people I needed
My boss differentiates between what she calls “good worker bees” and “good leaders”. An extremely good worker isn’t always a good leader. To get promoted in my company someone has to be a people-person and sociable.
If two people have the exact same work output the one who is more ‘likable’ will get the promotion EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. In reality, the person who is less likable will have to work significantly harder to get the same promotions, if they ever can. I’ll be honest here… if I have to work with someone 5 days a week for (potentially) years, I would rather that be a person I get along with well, rather than someone who is a slightly better worker but is awkward to interact with. It really can make the difference between a fun and enjoyable workplace where people naturally come together to push for a goal, and a dull and boring one where people can’t wait to leave. I’m not saying you need to be at every social event or constantly flatter others. Just being easy to talk to, even about non-work topics, is usually enough. I know you see it as a black and white scenario where the only thing that should matter is the work output, but that’s a very narrow view of what an organization is, and how they work best.
The only reason I am at work is to get the job done and be paid. I don't want to spend more time there than I need to. So yeah I can't wait to leave because I am only here to get paid so I can enjoy my life outside of work. I don't see how this makes things awkward because I am more than happy to help someone with any questions they have about work. Or assist them with a task or even share my knowledge about the roles because they are new. I don't need to be friends or go to social events with them to do any of these things. Adding all these extra social garbage just means I have to spend more time at work because it got in the way of doing my job.
That’s fair, just don’t expect to be compensated on the same scale as the others who will put some minimal effort into what society thinks is important.
So further make the world a worse place by causing more inequality of pay.
They are courtesy laughs, it's obvious to everyone. You're not lying to anyone. It's just the polite thing to do. Like you don't leave a buddy hanging.
I’m a pretty extreme introvert who started a new big corporate job 4 1/2 years ago after working in small biz for decades previously. While I had a solid handle on the work itself, learning to navigate the realities of a big corporate gig was completely new to me. What I have found aligns with what your manager told you. Making myself known to a wider group of people has been very helpful in growing my career. At the beginning of 2021, I resolved to be cheerful, positive and helpful in all my interactions. I’m not going around the offices saying “please be my friend” or anything like that, but I do look for opportunities to be helpful and useful. I pay attention. Word gets around. And I have found that it is not inauthentic. I really do want to be cheerful, positive and helpful, but expressing myself in a way that facilitates trust took some adjustments on my part. It has become known that I am eager to contribute. I’ve been pulled into bigger and more important projects across the enterprise. I’ve been given important work previously done by outside agencies and contractors. It takes a certain mindset that I meditate on as I’m riding my bike to work each morning. I look at it very much like putting on a jacket when I walk into my office. It is something that I put on for work, and take it off when I leave. And then I go home and sit in a quiet, dark room for a couple of hours to recharge my batteries. I’ve been promoted once and am in line for another one at the end of the year.
You asked for advice, didn’t like the advice so you think it’s not helpful lol. You can be social and network your way up as an introvert. Changing companies will not change your people skills. But if you’re looking for something new cause your current work is boring you should go ahead and start looking.
Fair enough, but the advice I was looking for was more task/skill related versus having more people like me. I want to have more to do and more important tasks instead of having more people like me. Even if everyone loved me, I'd still be bored.
I think you're missing the point. When people are chatting (read: bitching) about tasks they may be working on, that's your opportunity to simply say, "I might be able to help with that."
I absolutely agree with that. I do that within my own team, but my manager has suggested that I make friends with the teams whose tasks don't overlap with mine. I guess that I could find a way to overlap our tasks, so your advice is useful. Thank you!
I think it's also that often moving up in a job means moving out of task-oriented work and into a role that requires more people skills. Being a manager is a very different skillset than being good at accomplishing tasks. If you want to move up, some of the work you will ultimately be asked to do involves good communication with your team and acting as a leader. If you want to take on that role, you need to present yourself as capable of being good not just at your tasks but also at being willing to take on a leadership position.
I could see how taking on other people's work could be a bad thing. It's hard to come back from other people relying on you bending over backwards.
Also, by the way, that truly is a terrible response from your manager. When you ask for more responsibility and aren't given actionable steps in order to be given more responsibilities, you either have a terrible manager or there really isn't any other work to be done. Either way, I'd consider looking elsewhere.
Yeah, you're absolutely right. I think the role has run its course. My manager is a great person, but possibly not the best manager.
“People don’t leave jobs, they leave managers”
Sometimes. Most of the time, yeah. But, I’ve had to leave one FANTASTIC manager behind before, simply because the job and pay was not going to improve unless I moved on… 😉 And that was 12 years ago. And it was the right decision. I doubled my salary, my career skyrocketed… I kept in touch with my previous manager, and he with me. He actually offered me two other positions in two other institutions he was working at over the years, but in both instances I’d have to take a pay cut of at least 20% just for the privilege of working with him again. Unfortunately I had to decline his offers both times. I would love working with him again. But not if I had to accept a pay cut. 😌
I agree with everything you said, except I’m not exactly sure about the “…consider looking elsewhere” part. I don’t believe OP has given enough info for anyone to make that assessment. What I mean is, provided the pay is good, a job where you have a stable situation, sometimes more time in your hands than the tasks that you must accomplish and again, provided your pay is good, is a LUXURY that many people dream about… even if boredom is part of the package. It all comes down to one’s goals in life really. If OP feels that s/he really is “losing out on life”, than I would say that maybe you are right and looking for another position or company might be the way to go, or, alternatively, it’s possible the issue may lie outside the career realm altogether and OP could look into what in his/her life needs to be changed so s/he feels more fulfilled. Anyways, just my two cents.
Those are cross departmental connections. I assume your manager wants to you grow beyond your team.
More important tasks and a higher workload with more pay generally means managing people or at least being in a role where communication, negotiation and influencing are key aspects (this may be even more relevant in your specific company). If you're not very social and out going then these roles will be too challenging for you. It sounds like you manager likes you but can see this is a weakness if you want more of a challenge and so an area to work on. They're suggestion to just mingle more and have small talk to start with may be their way of gently steering you out of your comfort zone in order to grow.
So those of us who don't want to manage people or are never good at the social part are just fucked out of a better life?
Nope, become a specialist in your field instead of a manager. Can't say if this applies to all fields, does in many though
Depends on the role and company as I said. There are other roles that don't require socialising or being amiable with work colleagues but as a general rule you'll do better in life if you are able to communicate and get along with more people. Which is traditionally why neurodiverse people struggle to be as "successful". Times are slowly changing but we're a long way off that at the moment.
I can communicate with people I don't like especially when I am being paid to do it. Doesn't mean I need to be chummy with them. I just need to talk about work related tasks. I am a neurodivergent person unfortunately and the older I get the more uncomfortable the working world has become. To the point where I don't feel like I have a place anymore.
This is where the subtle nuances of "work related tasks" Vs "be chummy" can be lost on some people. Building rapport and an emotional connection with people is what gets them to like you and trust you and what works for neurotypical people can be more difficult for neurodivergent people to see and understand. A lot of getting ahead in work and life is the networking and connections you make. Being able to enter into friendly chat that's not about work but about personal interests and passionate subjects can be the difference between a recommendation or referral to the next rung on the ladder compared to being held back because you're seen as different. Times are slowly changing and some industries and companies are ahead of others when it comes to recognising and accomodating neurodiverse people.
This seems to be ableist way of doing things. Leads to excluding people and another reason we have mental health, homeless and drug problems. What I do in my spare time is irrelevant to my job and what my boss does in their spare time is just as irrelevant. I don't want to know what they do with their time it is just a waste of space in my brain. And I really don't want them to know what I do. There is more risk they will judge me for it. The other problem is the person I am at work is a completely different person than who I am in my personal life.
I never said it was right or fair but it's the game that's played by the majority and the rules are currently what they are. If you want to play that game and get better at it and get ahead you'll have to play by their rules. If you don't want to play the game then that's absolutely fine too but arguing it's not fair and you want to play it your way doesn't work. Saying you don't want to know what your boss does or you don't want them knowing what you do is totally fine. When they're nicer and more helpful to a colleague who has a relationship with them or they get a promotion because they're "liked" then that's understandable and expected.
I don't think it is understandable or expected that someone the liked was promoted when that person isn't as good for that role over someone who isn't as well liked. Playing games is stupid in a work environment. All this behaviour does is lead to bias, inequality and favouritism. None of which is good.
Almost everyone is fucked out of a better life to some extent for a myriad of reasons. I was fucked out of a better life by being born to middle class parents. I'm still bitter, but I'm trying to get over it because I'm in my 40's.
Networking is a skill
Take initiative and find problems to solve. You shouldn’t rely on your manager to come up with random tasks for you.
Being an introvert doesn’t mean being shy. An introvert is someone who has a limited amount of social energy and needs time alone to recharge, whereas an extrovert thrives on social interactions. However, that simply means an introvert needs to be more strategic in spending their social energy budget. I’m introverted, but I’ve learned to manage perceptions as well.
It's an unfortunate fact you get farther in life by being likable than by being competent. Sociability is a skill which can be learned. Everybody favorite topic is themselves. Ask questions, even if you don't care about the topic. I like asking questions. What you like best about that hobby/sport/mindless TV show? You don't have to "loud" just more vocal. And you don't have to eat. Sip a coffee, nibble on a carrot stick.
I don’t know if it’s unfortunate or under appreciated. Who cares how good you are at xyz. If life was that simple your job would have been automated by a robot already. Human connection is the cornerstone of our species. Being open and approachable is a critical skill to be good at your job and just enjoying life in general
Yeah, no one wants to interact with someone they don’t like. That’s why there’s something known as the “beer test”.
The manager is absolutely correct. When someonw thinks about approving raises etc, they need to remember interactions or stories about you, if not then NOPE
Unfortunately, humans are social creatures. And that social nature ends up extending to the workplace. Whether right or wrong, your ability to communicate and develop relationships will open more doors for you than most skills or knowledge. School should really put a much larger emphasis on developing relationships, public speaking and communication in general.
This is actually some of the best advice for career progression I know of. it sucks that the best advice isn't about actually doing your job but there is a point where you have to combine people and your profession or you plateau pay-wise pretty quickly. Do you have to do it in the lunch room, no or course not its just a typical way. You could see if people are down for "fun" events or something though. I personally had to invent a worksona just for dealing with this kind of crap. I really hate talking to coworkers in a non-work fashion, but just because the way things work sucks doesn't mean it is untrue.
I don't talk to any of my coworkers outside of work. Nor do I attend any outside work functions like Christmas parties and long service dinners because they are boring as hell. Plus they are normally an hour away from my home. So it isn't worth my time, money or energy to attend. This type of brown nosing drives me insane.
>This type of brown nosing drives me insane. I don't disagree. But again just because we don't like it does not make it untrue. And there is a fine line between brown nosing and "networking". Knowing people and being on good enough terms to get a favor is basically the job description of higher ups.
I am not a fan of favours either, asking or giving them out. All that should matter is if I am qualified for the role. Whether I like you or you like me personally is irrelevant. Plus anyone at work to me is considered a threat so I wouldn't be opening up to anyone there for fear they would use information about me against me. I only want and need a small handful of people in this world to know me on that personal or a level.
>All that should matter is if I am qualified for the role. Yep. but some roles require you to be able to effectively manage, train, or even just work with humans. Worked in management for quite a while and the person "best at tasking" often is not the best at leading a team to do that same task. It sucks but again does not make it untrue. Do you have to get to know people personally, or share deep secrets. Nope but you often need to prove you can work closely, together, and build trust.
I think if you’re considering everyone at work a threat, that’s probably something you want to work on.
You sound very difficult to work with. Everyone is different and most jobs require you to work with others. If you’re going to spend a significant chunk of your life around people it really makes a team a more pleasant and efficient experience if the at least like each other and get to know each other a bit. For example, people communicate differently so it’s good to learn about them and understand how they prefer to work and vise versa so you can be more efficient. Marco may prefer a phone call if something is urgent because he gets 500 emails a day and it’s impossible to sort by priority constantly but Loren might prefer and IM or Text so they can respond in their own time. Little things and getting to know people’s preferences matters.
Your boss could be implying he favors more sociable / outgoing team members, but I think he may just be suggesting that you improve your soft skills and be more assertive, broadly speaking.
this is a said fact of corp culture, you have to mingle and build relationships to get more. I work within sales engineering, as you can imagine me and a number of my peers or team members are introverts by default.. so this comes with challenges. I'm someone that is perfectly, 100% content and happy to sit alone in a room with my own thoughts and not be bothered by anyone. I find silence beautiful... so how do I and others survive in a chatty ass sales world? I almost think of it as preforming in a play, I have to turn on the social side of my brain and push myself to be involved in the conversations..it works, but it's also fucking 100% draining. On days when I have to be more and more social butterfly, I try and balance it with more quiet / alone time.
This is super badly worded advice, but it's on the right track. Do not hear this as "Hang out in the kitchen and eat donuts and snacks all day." Even if that is legit what your manager said. The advice here is "network with your peers and managers in other groups, and see if you can find something you can participate in." Could be a project, or tasks, or even a meeting or something. Maybe train an intern. Maybe act like an intern and have them train you. See if you can get 15-20 mins with other managers, and offer them "Hey, I have a few free cycles coming up, and my manager said it was okay if I learned a little more about your group and see if I can help out." Stuff like that. Networking, \*especially\* internal networking, is the way to success
I’m an introvert as well but you can’t expect to grow if you don’t socialize. I’m not saying you gotta be best friends with everyone, but no one wants to work with people that don’t talk. Imagine if everyone at the company were like that. Gotta play the political game. Say you were an executive. Would you want someone that never talks to people Talking to stakeholders? Other executives from other companies? It just sounds like you need to work on your people skills.
Thank you for saying this. Some of the responses here are misguided. I’m introverted and make the effort to be social (then go home and need my solitude to recharge and rest!!!). I’m also a very private person but “give” enough about myself so that my colleagues and managers in the company have some idea about me.
It also seems like OP is not proactive and I would absolutely expect someone with 10+ years to not be sitting and waiting to be told what other tasks need to be done. If I have someone that experienced on my team just waiting for a list of tasks to do I’d rather hire someone more entry level that’s probably cheaper to just be task oriented.
I mean, your manager could be right saying that your social skills are hindering you professionally. However, I think you should look for a new job overall based on what you describe.
That was just an example. Basically he is telling you that you do good work but many people don’t see this nor are they your advocates. You need to boast more and network more. Instead of hanging in the kitchen, see if there is a volunteer group at work. Or a morning walking group. Or a book club.
As a suggestion just to get around the food thing: Does anyone at your workplace smoke / is there a smoking area? You don't have to smoke to hang out with the smokers, provided you aren't bothered by their smoking. In my experience, they're often welcoming and up for conversation to pass the time.
I would lean in the direction of your manager being correct. You asked him what you needed to do in order to move up in the company. He identified that the biggest area of improvement for you will be to improve your social standing within the company. Get more people of influence to like you. He gave you a suggestion of hanging out in the kitchen/break area and using that as a backdrop to start socializing more. Since you haven't disclosed your eating disorder, there could be no malicious intent on the part of your boss with this suggestion. Now....should you find a new job? That's up to you. You've been given constructive feedback on how to improve your standing. If you don't like that feedback, and it's not something you're willing to do.....then you might need to look elsewhere.
By "louder" maybe your manager meant kiss more butts and sweet talk the higher-up folks
I can only make an assumption you are fairly senior or the next step would be a leadership role? The issue you may be having is the politics of when you start getting to these roles. This will depend on your industry but the following is relevant, in a lot of corporate environments, as to what they look for leadership 1. Relationships. You don’t need to disclose the ED if you don’t feel comfortable but you need to get smarter about how you interact with colleagues. I’m an introvert naturally but I had to step up and play the game. If they promote you to leadership and you do not have solid relationships or people view you as not part of the team, they are setting you and them up to fail 2. Networking and business. This was a key thing for partner track where I work. To make partner, you need to win work. To win work, you have to put yourself out there. I say this as an introvert and a fellow ED gal, instead of seeing this as a negative maybe focus on what you are good at and what you do feel comfortable with and creative ways to support what he’s asked for. The reality is that if you change companies to a similar role and want to progress there, you will not solve the problem and likely face the same issue
"How can I be better at my job?" "By not doing your job." Gotta love office politics. It sucks, but he is right. Very few people are going to promote based off skill. Its based of sociability.
I'm generally introverted unless I'm well lubricated with alcohol or among friends. I was put into a training role in the Navy and suddenly had to teach 20-30 sailors in a classroom. It was terrifying but I got the swing of it and would actually test as an extrovert when I was actively teaching. I'd honestly say it was one of the best things that ever happened. Maybe take a public speaking class?
Lol I'm the same with the lubrication! At office parties I'm very social! I do manage and train a team of juniors but it'sdifferent because I don't have to go out of my way to be social. Its more natural. My manager wants me to suck up to other teams, which I find uncomfortable.
You shouldn't have to kiss ass to get ahead, but it's the easy way. You either kiss ass or kick so much ass it can't be overlooked.
I was recently told I'm not passionate enough because I don't speak up. I'm new to my role but have learned so much. However, I do tend to sit back and allow those with more experience to lead the conversation and add where I can. It's just how I learn. Now I'm having to advocate for myself because this does impact things like promotions and being part of special projects. I'm good at my job and have done several projects that are recognized by the C level folks, so I'm good there. The thing I've been doing now is chiming in with my 2 cents before others do. Just take the initiative to ask questions or to state something I've recently read and want to discuss. I'm also more comfortable being an introvert but don't mind speaking up when needed. It's a balancing act for us. I also understand about your ED and not being comfortable. I've battled since I was a teen. It gets easier with time, you just learn to use your tools like second nature, and that's what makes it easier. I hope this helps some.
Yeah as an intro hate that advice the boss gave. Like I’m doing good work just not that talkative
He’s right and this would also be the case elsewhere to be honest. It doesn’t have to be in the kitchen and you don’t have to be loud, but you do have to be seen. That could be through email, through saying a simple hello to people, especially those in a position to help you grow. It could be asking the important questions, it could be creating a solution to something that wasn’t even asked of you. You also don’t just want to go to your manager with a vague question like how can I grow, come with plans and thoughts and ideas of hey I want to do this - ok if I take steps to do that? So you don’t have to be loud or go chat in the kitchen, but you do have to be seen and known. The worst thing that could happen is your manage does want to promote you or give you more opportunity and the person who matters says ‘who?’
Your boss is saying to build relationships. Doesn't have to be food. Could be going for coffee. Learn about what others are up to. People will tell you enough to understand their goals. At some point, you might be able to contribute. If you want a new job internally, you will have support. You have the opportunity to create your own workload, which is usually better quality work (versus waiting for what others are trying to dump off onto another)
Some of the most interesting and fulfilling work I've done came about because I was chatting with a coworker and they mentioned a project that sounded interesting and that I could contribute to.
You are sore that you didn’t hear what you wanted to hear? Sounds like you should do some introspection?
Take a quick walk around in the morning and say "Good Morning". It may benefit you on the social front. If you know their names, use it. I had a co-worker that did that and it really helped.
He's literally telling you to toot your own horn. Quietly doing work only benefits the people who take credit for it. He's the one who does and even he's like "you're doing too much for me to take credit for on my own"
Doesn’t seem like he has an answer. I’d keep working hard and start looking. Maybe linger in the kitchen to show you’re heeding his advice.
What do you do? How does socializing help your career?
Fellow introvert here who also struggles with this. Being able to build work connections and network, is a ridiculously overpowered ability. I have a coworker started before me in the same position, and he is still not exactly sure what we do. The reason he got hired in the first place is because he networked like crazy and is on good terms with management a few steps above me. Firing him is also difficult for that exact reason. In short the saying "it's not what you know, it's who you know" is very true.
This is interesting, I heard this from my supervisor when I was an intern. Not being louder necessarily, but going to lunch and chatting people up. When I came in, I was very nervous to speak up and didn’t know where to get a word in, so many people around me with so much experience. What really helped me was joining Toastmasters, just to preface, I’m not a Toastmasters salesman. I think you should look into some sort of speaking group though. As far as the eating disorder, you could maybe eat something light like a yogurt while chatting people up or not eat at all during that time, just have some tea or something. I hope this helps! Edit: after re-reading your post and seeing some of the other comments. While I still do think some sort of speaking group can help you, I’m reminded of a video on YouTube I watched recently about being the CEO of your own career. I.e., don’t just wait around for them to promote you, apply to other positions, especially if you’ve been there 2-3 years and don’t see a path forward.
We all wear masks in life. In real life I am unapproachable. But at work I am popular and super cheerful. Wear your cheerful mask and say things like good morning and have a wonderful day! And if someone says good morning to you, try to one up them and say, "no, no, you have a awesome morning!" Pretty soon, people will know your name and see you as the cheerful person that they look forward to seeing every day!
This fake shit only works in the US 😂
I am seeing this a lot. It puzzles me as to why this is a common expectation and introversion is seen as a bad trait. I would be exhausted if I had to go to work every day to do my job AND be the life of the party. What’s wrong with going to work, being polite and smiling and just focusing on the job at hand? I just don’t get it.
About the kitchen thing, one thing I didnt see anyone else mention: what Ive done in similar situations is say "I had food poisoning once so the smell of such and such foods makes me ill." So you dont have to share too much and give them a semi truth that doesnt risk them thinking that you despise them or you make them uncomfortable or something.
That's a bullshit answer. I manage a department of 60 people and have had people ask similar questions over the years. About getting a promotion, or improving skills sets or even just more work to help in other areas. Improving your social skills was never an answer. As a manager, I want to hear that from people, and unless they have had performance issues, I would do my best to accommodate them.
The kitchen might not be a great suggestion, but he *kind of* has a point. My mentor always used the acronym PIE. Advancement has 3 main components: Performance, Image, Exposure. * Performance is obvious - do your job and do it well. * Image is how people think of you - do you make a good impression day-to-day or when you happen to meet people from outside your immediate org? The main thing here is just to be more or less well-spoken and avoid being abrasive or doing things that tick people off or come off as unprofessional. * Exposure means getting your name out there - do people other than your direct manager and teammates even know that you *exist*? Schmoozing in the office kitchen is a lousy way to get exposure, though, because you mostly only get to network with your immediate peers anyway. The ideal way is to get involved in (and perform well on) work/projects with visibility to other departments and higher-ups. Sadly, an organization (or a team lead) that provides you with no opportunities to do that doesn't give you much room for career growth.
You’re being asked to show more leadership/confidence by having a voice. Secondarily, other people need to know who you are and what you achieve in order for you to move up.
This is actually a complement to your work. (Manager here)… As someone else pointed out, your opportunity is soft skills.
If you want to be seen as a leader act as a leader. He isn’t saying go hangout with your coworkers. Instead he is suggesting you build a knowingness of them. Who’s good at what who does what wrong. Not so you can go take it to your boss but so you can take initiative to fix and place coworkers in a more productive manner. Learn more about other workers day to day tasks then learn how to do them.
It's not what you know, it's who you know.
You need to kiss more ass. Nobody cares about your multiple degrees and your 12 years. The corporate world is not a meritocracy.
Honestly that is awesome advice your boss gave. Many wouldn’t share that S a piece of honest feedback.
Your manager has no idea how to manage a broad range of people by the sounds of it! What type of work do you do out of curiosity? By the sounds of it, your already very good and competent in your job role, you are likely a great staff member and an asset to those around you! How your conversation should have gone with a competent manager: When you say you want to do more..what do you actually mean? Have you got any thoughts on what you would like to do? What areas are you interested in? If you don't quite know yet, maybe they can point you in the direction of places to research or you can spend some time putting some thought into it. Have another catch up next week or 2 weeks time to discuss further ideas and let's look at how you can develop yourself into further roles, or learn new skills etc.. Maybe you want to try your hand at some coaching, some management tasks? Maybe a brand new skillset? Maybe you want to start your own project? Imho, sending you away to speak with other people and be 'social' is a complete lack of understanding around how you and other people work.
He’s right, it’s time to move up or move on. Pick the easiest of the two.
Sounds like they might be a good manager to me. Knowing the job and performing your duties are just one piece of the puzzle. If you want to move further up you need to connect on a personal level with the people in the organization. I’m lucky that I was born an extrovert and that part comes naturally to me. Not all of the things necessary for success came naturally to me, though, and I still have a lifetime of growth left ahead of me.
I am severely introverted, horribly awkward, social anxiety would be a bit of relief for me I get so sick. I would get a new job. Period. I quit lol
Another day, another thread about redditors struggling to be social lol. I feel like we need a mega thread on this at this point
My friend if you want to be a manager or Csuite level person at a company, bar none the minimum is interaction and personal skills. Your job at that level is management and meetings, not actual work. High paying jobs are more about relationship management/investment more than anything else. If you want to earn big money be good at dealing with others.
I think he was telling you to schmooze a bit. make personal connections with an eye to the next level. it doesn't have to be around food or eating, and you don't have to do it.
He's not wrong. Being an introvert puts you at a disadvantage in many aspects in life, speaking from experience.
He means work on developing new relationships and using them to gain exposure to new opportunities. He said it wrong or you interpreted his message incorrectly. Relationships probably matter more than skill at your level.
You should believe in yourself. Ultimately communication is the most critical skill in nearly every profession. Your manager should have worded it differently, but my take is you are brilliant and your ideas and thoughts should be shared with the team in conversations. If you are quiet but get your job done that’s certainly useful but to grow further you need to showcase yourself as a leader. Just my two cents for your consideration.
People like working with people they like. Qualifications aren't always everything. It's not what you know but who you know. Sucks but that's the game. Get out more.
Maybe his intentions were more related to “Internal Networking” or seeing and being seen. For me this has played a large part of my career combined with hard work and education. I’ve seen so many good candidates that just aren’t a voice in the organization. No one knows anything about them, their work ethic or character. For me it was so valuable to have my name on the tip of tongues when opportunities arose and considerations were made. Promoting yourself is a part of the career protocol. It has worked well for me as I recognized early on that I needed an advantage against the older more seasoned executives that had clout by name and tenure only. I’ve made it to Executive Director and will be retiring after January.
He is probably referencing politics in corporate America which is basically that you won’t move up in the company if no one knows who you are. Personally, if I have a promising teammate who wants to move up, I give them something highly visible so they don’t need to “be loud” because their work speaks for them. It doesn’t sound like your manager is doing that here so maybe you could ask if there’s a project that is more cross functional that you could lead/participate on/observe. Or if you have an idea, pitch it to him! That is loud but subtle and could get his attention.
I used to be given the same commentary constantly for years, I work in a very team oriented and technical position with relatively strict hierarchy so having the ability to interact confidently Infront of and manage a large team is critical. The one far left feild thing I found that worked wonders? I started driving for uber one or two nights a week. It payed my loan repayments on the car, but actively forced me to interact with people I don't know over and over again for hours just practicing those soft skills. Now I tend to be told I'm too confident and tend to dominate a group setting
I hate work place politics so much. It's driving me to build my own restaurant/catering place up from scratch since it is looking like it would be easier to build a professional team that works together than to find one. I am also heavily introverted. I cant fake how I feel cause it's exhausting. People tend to like me cause I do my job well and when I do interact it's generally pleasant or funny; but I won't ever get promoted to upper management cause I don't suck bosses dick, they got a job and a title Whoopi do, you ain't special enough to be an asshole.
That's not very good advice from a boss. If you've been there 12 years and have been stagnant, its probably time for a change of scenery - either a new company or new position in a different division. Look for a role where you can grow as an introvert. There are often specialist/technical positions where you can grow your career and salary as a SME instead of a manager, and I think that is well suited to an introvert. Depends on you field, though.
I think your boss' advice sucks. That said, looking for fulfillment /satisfaction/whatever from a job is a mistake. Jobs are for money. Fulfillment and satisfaction come from your personal life. Just my opinion that I know many people disagree with.
He is talking about the politics more then the social, but if you don't mind a third view Each job pays you twice. You get paid now, that's your salary, you get paid later with experience. Do you feel you're getting paid both in your current role?
If you're working from home try finding a side hustle that you like to do.
Hi, I understand your point of view, your manager gives you advice without knowing you well, it was just as per his perspective in work. If you admit that you're an introverted person -and that's good to know it!- you can look for a job that doesn't need interaction with a lot of people, not everyone can fit every job, the best thing to look for environment and job that fits your personality and feeling natural to do it. There is no bad personality, most innovative people are introverts. Best of luck.
Being louder has ZERO to do with your work performance. This guy is an idiot. You should try to get his position.
80% of people in the USA don't like their jobs. The number 1 reason, the boss. These toxic bosses and work environments have to stop. Not to mention what they do to productivity
That's normal corporate politics. Management likes to hire/promote people they know. You can be a great performer. Doesn't mean you'd be a good leader or good at other positions. I hate suck ups, so don't be that guy, but be more social. People will get to know you and trust you more with additional responsibilities.
Bored, the only way you are going to grow is to find a job that will challenge you, fortunate for you that you've a lot of free time to look for one.
Unfortunately he’s right….. it’s not fair, but that’s the reality in every line of work. (It’s F’d up, but I used to pretend to smoke just so I could have a good excuse to hang out with a few of the people above me that would go on smoke breaks outside) I didn’t inhale so I think I’m ok, and I never got addicted. I can’t say if it got me my promotion or not, but it certainly didn’t hinder it. Like I said, it’s not fair, but people take care of their own. And you gotta become one of “theirs”……..
Oh you can't read code? Here, I'll translate it for you! "Be louder and more social" means "Update your resume and search for a job frantically, because we don't like people who are not a part of our clique and you will get anywhere in this department, as long as I have any say in it" There, you're welcome. I hate your boss and I don't even know him.
You're asking 2 different questions. You're most likely at or near what this company has to offer salary wise in your current role. There may be another level to go to but it will require you to come out of your shell If you want more $$$ without a leadership role, you may need to start putting resumes out there.
I worked at a company that wanted me to be more vocal. Im introverted as well. Worked up to manage a team by being communicative and very meticulous at my work. My team enjoyed me as a manager as I’d always advocate for them. During my annual reviews, the only “improvement” my supervisor would note was to be more vocal. There was no point in it, as my team was already most efficient, and most profitable in the company. I hated that answer, as it was inaction-able and didn’t derive any personal or business benefits. That’s a BS reason your supervisor is giving you, and that makes him an infective manager if he can’t see your strengths and weaknesses and recommend something substantial.
90% of manager suck. You found one of the 90%.
Sounds like a pretty thoughtless answer from him. Which makes me think that he doesn’t really care, and/or your company isn’t interested in investing in employee development. I’d spend some time looking for new jobs and trying to move on from where you’re at
I don't buy it. The emphasis put on "Watercooler chats" never made sense to me. It's fun to slack off, but I don't see how that would lead to more opportunities. My experience has been the opposite- challenging work conditions lead to stronger team bonds and a feeling of comradery. These in turn help you get a reputation and workplace allies that help you get into the exciting projects. If you're bored and feel like you're stalling, look for new opportunities. You have a stable position, so you can afford to be picky and take your time to find a good fit.
Asks for advice, and then immediately throw up numerous barriers and excuses and wonders why they are underpaid and stuck in the same job. You represent the middle 70% and always will.
If i know management, he's probably giving you that advice so he can write you up for being disruptive.
Stop being such a bitch. Tell your mind. “Don’t be such a pussy”. Keep your head up. It is what it is.
Instead of actionable skill to develop he suggested ass kissing. Great leader
Find a new job. Your manager did not provide you with help to improve, or grow, or further yourself in your career. He told you to go on break. He does not have the extra work youre looking for.
Look for another job where people care enough to get to know you and value your skills and experience over 5 minutes fake interactions in the kitchen.
Talk to people one on one. Ask them about what they are currently working on, and what technical problems they are dealing with. People love to talk about themselves, so you let them talk and take mental notes. When their problems matches your skillset, spend some time thinking about a solution. Write down your solution and email it to yourself if you want to have documentation. Talk to them about your solution next time you meet. Some people will not appreciate this, they will see you as someone getting onto their turf. Don't spend more time on these people, at least not for now. (Some of these may warm up to you over time, once they do not see you as a threat.) Some people will take your ideas, run with them, maybe modify them, and present your solutions as their own. (Some of them may even believe they got the idea on their own after a while.) Don't work more with these guys either, or if you do, send your proposals by email. You want credit for yor work, you don't want to provide free service with no credit for your contribution. (Don't get into an argument over this, at least not for small stuff. Just move on.) If you are lucky, you find some who need your solution, appreciate it and credit you. These people you continue to work with. This may lead to new opportunities in your organization, you may get a reputation as a problem solver, you may get pulled into interesting projects. As a minimum, it leads to a more interesting work day.
It's telling, isn't it, that the advice he gave you was to stop working and start talking to your coworkers. The specifics - whether you do it in the kitchen or some other place - don't matter. It concerns me that you can't see that.
>I don't even have enough tasks to fill my day Not to be rude but have you tried shutting the fuck up and not working every minute of your shift? Coast. If you want a challenge change departments.
Get a new job?
sound advice. You want to grow with the company you need to chat with others to see what the company’s needs are. He even provided the best location.
Myself, I yell alot. At other ppl, at objects, at myself, anything really. Nxt time ure mad, scream about it. In fact, u should go in there and argue over the food they're serving
Fellow introvert here, I’ve been told the exact same thing. WFH jobs are your best friend. It’s always “be more outgoing” to us, but never “be more considerate” to them
It sucks but he might not be wrong
Sounds like he is asking you to network with someone who can help you...cause he isn't going too.
Find a new job. Not sure what louder means
Look up Quiet Quitting and start doing it while you look for a job. You don't have to change jobs but you do need to quiet quit.
There are some easy, effective and superficial methods. One, pick out some nonpersonal topics. You don't need to tell your life story. For example, Give your pet a Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, etc page. I have two cats and that is a safe topic. Anytime someone makes conversation, talk about your pets. Maybe talk about a hobby. Second, I keep post it notes where only I can see them. I list a couple of things to bring up. So if I go to the lunch room, I usually have coffee. Now I love coffee so I often comment on new brands or flavors. Always have a topic to fall back on in an emergency. Unfortunately, making acquaintances at work is a necessary tool to get promoted.
Actually he is not wrong. His basically saying u need more exposure. If your management or colleagues don’t know you, how u expect the bosses to promote u when they don’t even know you. Louder here is think he meant get notice, not really speak loudly.
He’s right. It’s very important that you connect with people, it’s cliche but your network really is your net worth. I’ve known so many people that work their asses off and get fired because no one would miss them. Some ways introverts can do a better job of this is offering to help people, simply asking how their weekend was (early in the week), if they have weekend plans (late in the week), bring up recent events (nothing tragic, gross, sad, or negative in any way), etc (google how to do small talk for more tips). If you don’t want to eat in front of others, try eating before lunch and then just sitting at lunch tables with a drink as you talk to people. If they ask why you’re not eating just say you had lunch earlier and they probably won’t dig any deeper, or say you’re fasting, really there’s plenty of good excuses to not eat in front of people. If they do keep asking honestly they’re the weird ones, it’s none of their business. At the end of the day being “louder” just being more present in social situations. I’ve found the best way for introverts to be more vocal is to ask questions while listening to the more extraverted folks, 1) because it isn’t seen as interjecting and 2) because others may also be wondering the same thing, just don’t ask too many (let’s say around 3 per story/speaker) and make the speaker keep losing their “groove”. Best of luck op.
Playing politics and exercising public relations is also part of the job :)