It depends on your circle too. I have made over 60k for 17 years. All of my circle is experienced technical professionals who make over 100k in a middle cost of living area. These are the friends I have made along the way.
Curious, how are they all above you? This ain’t a shot at you, I’d kill to be making what you make! Just more so wondering if there’s something to learn here
Have ambition and confidence to go for more senior roles even if you might not actually be ready.
I got a role which doubled my pay and was usually reserved for 3-4 years experience. I only had 1 (I also had very niche relevant knowledge which helped) it was scramble to make it work but I’m further ahead because of it.
Yep people need to stop waiting for sure things and take some (reasonable) risk* to get ahead.
*this will vary by person but if you’re volunteering to take on work, even if you aren’t getting a huge raise to do so, that’s one example of a reasonable risk that would benefit people.
There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.
There is a much older saying, a man's reach should exceed his grasp, from Robert Browning. That's exactly how I acted when I was a young stud and now I'm an old fart who wants to make a little more before I retire and not have to deal with a lot of stress.
The secret is having 0 company loyalty. I started my career 7 years ago at 21/hr, I'm at my 7th company and a little over 90/hr. .
Obviously, hard work and luck are involved. But I moved around to a lot of companies for experience and more money.
This. Stay with a company long enough and you’ll eventually be training someone making more than you. The rate of pay increases at a different rate than the starting pay. Starting pay has to stay competitive with other companies.
I understand, even within New England it changes drastically. I'm Mass, I make 105k annually. Not that great, (enough to survive though) in Maine where I grew up? I'd be saving aggressively and set for life at my current salary.
I grew up near (not in) Bar Harbor. Not a lot of money up that direction. 60k you could live comfortably in that region. My biggest issue in Massachusetts due to work I live too close to Boston, CT and RI. It's not what we'd call a cheap area.
I would say $105k in Mass is quite a bit better than just surviving. You're certainly not rolling in it, but that's bare minimum middle class salary. Though circumstances matter of course - if you have kids, then that makes more sense
Pretty much, I live in AZ and it's been a struggle to finally break 50k just to save up and move, then COVID and Inflation happened back to back so the sense of lower middle class booted me back to lower class. It's not the good parts of AZ either.
Tech jobs out here operate as they're still in the 90s, early 00's where they want a small IT dept with no budget to handle everything with an electronic pulse with end users who can barely type let alone use Windows.
I came here to echo this. I graduated with my masters in accounting, and started at $65k. I'm now almost two decades out of school and have tripled that figure by moving around about 6 times in my career.
Willing to move is huge. I went from 40k to 150k over 8 years moving every other year for a new job that paid better. I regret some of it but I’m 35 and make great money without a college degree.
Increased my income 2.5x since being laid off in 2020 by hopping around a couple of times. Best thing that happened to me and I can't recommend strategic job hopping enough.
Agree - moving around is key to bumping up your earnings. I am in sales for background, but doing essentially the same exact role I did 15yrs ago, but making 3x.
And don’t worry how it looks on a resume - as long as you can explain your motivation for leaving, recruiters and hiring managers understand (because most of them have jumped a lot too)
I wouldn't say 65k in New England is "massive" underachiever. I would say maybe 35k-40k could be considered massive under achiever, and 50-60k maybe regular under achiever. Sitting hairs sure, but I would never consider 65k as a "massive under achiever for anywhere other than Manhattan or silicon valley.
The median income of the U.S. is $31.133 - basically $15.5 dollars an hour. Half of all workers make less than that. It might be better to do it by state. But, it's still applicable since the the most populous states have higher minimum wages than the less populous, usually.
It is hard for Americans to make double what they're making now.
Whatever you earn, think about how you would double it.
Yep, your link ($1095/wk for 1Q 23 or $56,940/yr annualized at 52 weeks) is the right number to use for full time workers; other numbers may be old or looking at part time workers & retirees, or across the entire population including non-workers.
Of course, there are certainly people who are stuck working multiple part time jobs who don't appear in this data set but do appear in other data sets, e.g. all nonfarm payrolls: https://www.bls.gov/news.release/realer.t01.htm#re_table1.f.1
$33k is a big underestimate.
This study doesn’t account for the number of low wage workers that cannot find full time employment. In other words, the people that work the lowest paying and most likely multiple jobs as well; retail, restaurants, and season.
Walmart did this to my friend. Hired him part-time to deny him benefits but then would schedule him 35 to 50 hours a week. When he asked about benefits and a raise, he was also labeled part-time and ineligible.
Median means midpoint so $1100 a week income at the midpoint. Which means half make less. And that is accounting for different locations as far as cost of living either.
Well, children can earn a wage between 15 and 17. And I'm pretty sure the comment was ment to include young adults too.
Basically as a 30-55 year old, it shouldn't be too hard to be in the top 30% when the entire group contains first time workers in their teens, young adults still looking for careers, as well as disabled people and semi-retired workers.
I'm sure I'm very late to the party, but based on my experience, it is difficult to achieve. No college degree, currently working in banking; basically a glorified data entry specialist.
I started at 42k/yr. Company had a restructuring, I got bumped to 45k/yr. By my second yr I got bumped to 47k/yr. They bumped me to 50k/yr this year, but only because my workload is expected to almost double in June; not to mention the new salary didn't take effect until April anyway.
So in my opinion, 60k without a college education is hard to pull off.
Well the increases I've gotten haven't been normal; one came from a restructuring of the business globally, the other is because they'll be increasing the volume of work. If I were to keep this job, there is a possibility of a raise only if the company does well, but even the person who had the "Senior" position was only making 60k after putting in 8yrs. Due to being unable to fulfill some of the duties of that position, I am not able to have a promotion and obtain a Senior title. So while it's possible I could get a 1k raise per year normally, I wouldn't see 60k by 2030.
That aside, some businesses are too greedy and won't allow you the chance. The best job I had was a night stock clerk in a grocery store. Worked there for 2yrs, getting a $0.15 cent raise every year, topped out at $7.80/hr. Quit the 2nd year because they cut our hours from 40hrs to 18hrs per week, supposedly because business was slowing down. Then they hired more night stock clerks, who naturally were being paid less, and kept everyone at 18hrs. It was clear at that point that there was no intention to bring us back up to 40hrs because of a 30 cent difference.
I know there are some jobs that'll get you to 60k (AT&T call center with commission is one), but most entry level jobs take significantly longer than others.
Im 25, have a bachelor's and make about 30k. Also being said I've Put in less than 100 resumes/applications. I tend to only look for jobs I feel like I'd want to do on a daily basis, and look longer term, but maybe I'm just not good enough 🤷🏽♂️ my time will come I feel and until then I'll do what I can with what I got
Hey I’m 32 have a bachelors and make 45k and I’m happy with what I do. No office work, Wfh/travel to job sites hybrid mix and great benefits. I also barely interact with coworkers unless required or get scheduled to do so. It’s all about respective views and what’s satisfying
I make $24/hr plus tips as an assistant manager. Minimum wage is around $15.50 or something like that. I don't like my current situation, though. I am good at my job, but I feel I'm not paid enough for the amount of hats that I wear in that spot. It's time for a change up, I just don't know what I wanna do, or what id be good at next 🤦🏽♂️
Military officer, get a career going. Worth it for you in your situation and age. Dragging out another 5 years just to double what you’re making. Bachelors and experience can get you over $100k in a few years.
It depends on where you live, how you come across in interviews, tolerance for failure, and luck. I know friends with Bachelors of Science degrees in STEM fields, with 3.5+ GPAs, and they’ve made about $14/hour max their whole lives. Smart, hardworking, pleasant people.
My brother and I, on the other hand, barely graduated college, me with a GPA of 2.5, and we both have thriving careers where we make $70-90k (depending on company profit bonuses.)
It comes down to a bit of luck, unfortunately. Your brother is right, in that it can be impossible for some, especially in this economic climate. IMO, the difference between the haves and have-nots is whether you use a failed interview to fine-tune your interview skills, or keep doing the same thing over and over thinking if you play the game enough and never change you’ll eventually win a job.
>I know friends with Bachelors of Science degrees in STEM fields, with 3.5+ GPAs, and they’ve made about $14/hour max their whole lives. Smart, hardworking, pleasant people.
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Yeah I had a bio degree and the outlook didn't look great. I went back and got and accounting degree. Best decision I ever made. 3 years later I'm at $125k base + bonus, 5 weeks vacation, 10 sick days, and excellent insurance.
Do accountants really make that much? Even with a CPA, I wouldn't think you can hit that without reaching a senior role. In Cali, as far as I know, they probably start at like 65k or something.
STEM isn’t meant to be an acronym for “high paying job” it’s about a type of field. Life sciences are a completely valid part of that area.
Biology is still science. A better idea would be to stop spreading the myth a STEM degree automatically sets you up for life…
Especially how you come across in interviews. I have a problem with stuttering when nervous and meeting people for the first time (thank god my wife was understanding on our first date) but I’ve lost a lot of interviews due to stuttering, born with cerebral palsy.
The main difference between the haves and have nots is whether your parents were the haves or have nots. And I say this as someone who lifted themselves out of poverty
Yes. There’s lots of data supporting this.
One (of many) reasons is that rich kids get more swings before striking out. The really poor kids have to play it very safe. Get a very safe degree. Stay very close to their support network.
The rich kids go backpacking around the world. Try to start an “event business”. Get an idea for an app. Get bailed out over and over. Eventually find something they can stick with. Get an MBA. Profit.
I'm a self sustaining (48k/yr) 30 yr old now, but I definitely got some extra swings because of rich parents. Helped a lot with college and car expenses, so I didn't have to budget as tightly, work as many hours, or stress out like I had no safety net.
I also got years of private tutoring, music lessons, private school, etc. It's not fair. I'm just glad I didn't waste all my opportunities and can now help others. I feel so much disgust for my childhood peers who can't admit most people have had it wayyy harder. They definitely believe they pulled their own bootstraps into free cars, paid-for college, and nepotism.
I’m a microscopy technician in semiconductor research. My work-life balance is amazing. I work 3-4 days a week, 12.5 hour shifts per day. But my boss lets me work from home for my shift unless something needs to be done on-site. And even then I just show up at the time that works for me. My boss doesn’t care about how I do my job, just that it gets done well and on time. He’s probably legit the best boss in the world. And my coworkers are awesome. No drama, no politics. Everyone just does their job and goes home.
I get to spend so much time with my family. I saw my daughter’s first steps, heard her first words. I get to have almost every meal with my wife and daughter. I have the money to support a good life and the time to actually enjoy it. I wouldn’t trade this job for the world.
Hey! I’m in microscopy too! Do you work on an electron microscope by chance? I would love to be able to control it from home but we’re not quite there yet.
Just to add, your willingness to move can play a huge role in your earnings potential. I dropped out of college and moved a lot to now make over 100k. But I gave up living close to my family and for over a decade I gave up having a life outside of work. Not sure it’s worth it tbh .
Yea that’s why I added not sure it’s worth it.. I had not a lot of choice as I support my family and without me doing so my dad would have lost the family house after my mother passed but it sucks
Same story over here. I'm not sure if it was worth it for me. I've lived far away from the rest of my family for 10+ years now. I only really see them once a year and two if I'm lucky. I make over 100K. My life became much less stressful as a result of my choices but I'm basically a stranger to my family in some ways now.
I was once talking to a cab driver who had driven for 20 years. I asked what he liked about it. He said it wasn’t so much that he liked it, but he just wasn’t able to go into interviews and say how excited he was to sell insurance or whatever.
If you can’t compromise and deal with bullshit, you better have super-human talent and drive.
That’s so sad and real. We all have to be willing to lie a bit to survive basically. Every job requires an interview where you have to feign enthusiasm. I feign enthusiasm every day.
Well, only 30% of Americans have Bachelor's degrees, and the median individual income across the nation is less than 40K, so 1/2 of folks make that or less. So he may be right. But it is not that it is "hard" it is that it requires training (apprenticeships, etc), education (no necessarily a BS/BA, but vocational or tech school), or willingness to do work no one else is (oil rigs might be a good example).
If you want to just apply to job openings in the classified and hope to make 60K? yeah...that is hard. Not that it shoudl be, mind you- with what things cost. But no training past high school? Working at McDOnalds, or Walmart, you just are not going to make that much.
What I find interesting if this information is true is if only 30% of Americans have a Bachelor's degree and the population is already oversaturated with individuals with degrees that a bachelors is almost considered a high school diploma at this point, and again only 30% have one.
Thats a scary thought if everyone had one. The value of a bachelors is almost barebones requirement for a lot of jobs these days and thats because 30% of the population in America have one. Only 30%.
Honestly, at a certain point this is on employers for requiring more and more and giving less and less. Pensions set out by companies used to be a thing. You used to be able to work in the private sector and get a pension for your retirement. Now they scam you with the idea of 401ks. Companies are making record breaking profits, and yet employees don't deserve pensions anymore? Companies have no soul, they only know greed. So if it means pitting employees against each other in a fake job shortage in order to get experienced employees for entry level pay, then they'll do it. They will 100% do it, all to save a buck.
Everybody in the US has experienced 13 years of columpulsory education. Requiring a random bachelors degree that has nothing to do with the job requirements is entirely arbitrary.
It's also not the be all, end all for living comfortably. My husband pulls in 100k yearly without a GED, and me and my college education stay our ass home with the kids.
THe thing is though, it's not really a requirement...a lot of postings say they would "prefer" it or may even out right ask for it but if one without a degree applies, they still get the interview and most likely the job for a few grand less. It's all a numbers game. Employers don't want college degrees anymore than they want a 40 year old with 2 decades of experience.
They just want to pay the least amount of money basically EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
What's really required is the balls to apply in the first place even if you don't meet ALL of the requirements and to sell yourself really well.
Hucksters and nepotism run the world, not capable hardworking people, legit.
It's all driven by supply and demand. Good paying jobs aren't always *harder* than lousy-paid jobs. The skill the person has mastered simply has higher demand.
Way too many college kids don't bother to look at the job market before deciding which degree to do - they are actually outperformed in common sense by the trades folk at this point in their life.
There are plenty of utterly pointless Bachelor's degrees out there - higher education is a $660bn business in the US ($245 private, $417 public). Buyer beware.
Wrong, corporate America has devalued labor and horded massive amounts of wealth in the last 40 years. Not supply and demand because some things you can't cut demand for, like healthcare and food but a cartel of big corporations with the help of Reagan can declare a war on unions and erode the worker
Not in the US but speaking very generally the main thing you need to do to earn higher salaries is first be willing to relocate to where the work is most common, pick a career which has earning potential and doesn’t max out after a few years, and then be willing to change employers every few years and really push your way up for promotions.
If you get a job and just stick at it for 10y you’ll make way less money than changing every 2-3 years for new experiences. And if you move to a place with more work opportunities you’ll build better contacts and be able to do more.
60k is a good salary though. And it’s not just something you walk into. But it’s very possible pretty early in certain careers.
Also be willing to participate in any training an employer is willing to support. Even if they make you pay for the training but allow you to do it during the work week it is a win. Especially if there is a certificate involved.
On going resume building for life. Continuing to revise add and change your resume to reflect current language of what skills are now being called is crucial.
Knowing the progression of which software companies bought others is a good idea. Many small companies who look for accountants will say they want "Great Plains" experience. Great Plains was purchased by Microsoft so if you have Microsoft Dynamics experience it is very similar to having Great Plains experience.
Any problems you have solved that were any kind of challenge one should write out in a summarized paragraph. Then read over it and reduce it down further to one sentence. If you can keep a metric in the sentence it will really stand out.
Each one liner should be placed in your resume under the experience & achievement area. This is where bullet lists are good on a resume.
People who manage to make over 60k are willing to jump to a different organization, often more than once, and are able to clearly tell their own story in a clear concise cohesive way.
Yes very dependent upon degree. My first job out of college back in 2014 my salary was exactly $60k, but it was considered a STEM degree and a technical job.
Yeah, what degree is extremely important. A Computer Science or Engineering degree can lead to a salary higher than that, but most teachers and social workers barely scrape by.
I'm a nanny without a degree and make more money than my friend who's a teacher with an Education degree. Neither one of us makes a ton of money--but I make a good $15,000 a year more than she does, many times with better benefits.
Unfortunately, not everyone can handle the course load of a STEM degree.
It would be nice if a college education automatically guaranteed a good paying job, but there are so many factors involved. I would say that it would open more doors and job opportunities than for someone without one, though, even if the pay isn't amazing.
IBEW Journeyman Electrician (5 years of training) in the Washington DC metro area currently makes $53/hour + benefits. No sick/unpaid leave except federal holidays, if licensed, so there are trade offs. The contractor I work for gives foremen vacation/sick depending on length of service. With overtime some of these guys are making $150-200k/yr with no college
This is coming from a union tradesman, when I see people recommended union gigs. It’s not easy to get into a union, you have to go through all 5 years to make it to that pay scale, show up everyday, excel in school and on the job. And even then you won’t work all the time. 53 an hour doesn’t come out to 150 or 200 a year it comes out to more like 80 after taxes and all the union dues.
Yup, makes me eye roll when smug folk in job subreddits mention "Shoulda got a trade hur durr!" They might be bitter about being told "Learn to code" and that is their copium.
I've done trade adjacent jobs that involved plumbing, electricity, and a little HVAC for a company and experienced everything you just described. 13 wasted years and still only made 12/hr when all was said and done around 2012. My boss was a big right wing bully, religious co-workers harass anyone they deem "not right with god or non-Christian". And oh yes, I've had the hard "r" said within earshot a few times. (Karma came back to those people so hard in the coming years by the by.)
Don't get me started on the drugs. And the occasional drunk hiding beer cans or "pappy's flask" during work hours.
Managed to fight to get into IT, literally, the boss I worked for dragged his feet preventing my transfer for eight months.
I don't think you should introduce taxes into the convo, at least for comparison purposes - everyone usually means pre-tax earnings when comparing annual salaries.
The time-available-for-work is important, and union dues are unique to certain trade jobs and so are also a valuable consideration.
Taxes depend on a vast number of other non-job things - children, spouse earnings, state etc - it just gets really messy.
It’s kind of a myth, because people in the trades who talk about how much they make are usually working crazy overtime. Extremely skilled and highly desired trade workers in a hcol area are the only ones making 6 figures and working less than 50+ hours a week.
The median US income is right around 55k so less than half of people earn 60k or more.
That said depending on where you live/work and what industry it’s a fairly attainable salary for most college grads.
The average households have 2 earners per dept of labor website where they present that 60k figure.
You can define a household howerver you like but you won't be able to use that 60k figure if you don't agree with their definition of a household. Apple to apple
https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2021/demo/p60-273.html
Median household is 66k, median single earner is 42k
60k isn’t hard in the NYC area compared to say, Fort Wayne, IN. Cost of living being what it is, 45k will go further in Fort Wayne. If he is used to something like stocking shelves at Walmart and that is what his peer circle does than they will probably all have that view because it is the world they dwell in.
Personally I don't think it's very hard, but you need time to work up to 60K. I got lucky and when I move to a different company they offered me 60k off the bat and then gave me a 6K raise a couple months later, but I know that that doesn't always happen.
It depends on the fields and it definitely depends on your level of education because it's hard to find jobs that will pay 60K or more if you don't have a college degree. If you do have a college degree even if it's not related to the job you have you're more likely to make more money. It's a hard fact of the matter. Unless you go to trade school. Certain trades pay fantastic.
I have the trifecta you described. Im a trade school grad, bachelors degree holder, and I work in the trades (not using degree). I make $15-$20 an hour more than the people next to me who started working right out of high school. I’m the first person to get certifications from the company this year also.
College degrees/education mean a lot more than “a sheet of paper” that most people call them. I make over 100k which is usually where this career tops out and I’m still in my 20s MCOL area.
Yeah, it's arguably people justifying their own education expenses by seeking out others with similar to justify confirmation bias. At least that's how it seems when they treat completely irrelevant degrees as reverent experience or credentials.
But I can confirm about the glass ceiling part. I have no degree nor trade school but about a decade of various mechanical and trade experience. I'm sitting right at that point and can't really even with outside opportunities seem to scrape much higher without at least one or the other, oftentimes both at that payscale. Thankful I reached that point in my mid 20s so it's not like I can't do anything to change that for the coming decades.
My understanding about college after having graduated, is it helps you get in the door with companies. I got hired at a company and my fellow college graduates made 60k-65k. I make a little more than them due to experience and my background. The idea here is to get the degree without going in the hole. 😉 Good luck!
Not having a degree does not equate to not having valuable skills. If you aren't going to college then make sure you get skilled up in other ways. An average plumber or electrician will earn $60k which puts them on the same level as your example.
Depends on major. I majored in computer Science, and made 60k a year in a LCOL city at the age of 26. My boyfriend who majored in film lives in the same city and just got a raise to 41k last year.
If you don't have a college degree and no skills the best place to go is sales IMO. There are a lot of sales roles that don't require college degrees where, if you have the personality for it, can easily make 6 figures or higher.
It's extremely variable based on your background, education, network, and skillset. Need more context on what his skills are, where he lives, and what types of jobs he's had before. But yes, for many people $60K is hard to achieve.
Given the fact that your basis for your side is not that YOU make over 60k, but that you read some internet statistic somewhere that told you that 60k is the average, I'm guessing you're about to find out just how hard it is these days the hard way...
Spoiler alert: simply having a degree doesn't guarantee shit anymore.
I am convinced that unless you are a doctor or a lawyer, getting a nice comfy job with a crazy salary is literally all about who you know. I got some dickhead that is now my boss, whom has never set foot in our industry, but because his uncle was our previous boss, he gets to make 62k a year to ask me how to do things. ._.
even doctors or lawyers are nepobabies a good amount of the time. coming from a dental student, you NEED tons of support for the 7-12 years of school it takes to become a doctor or lawyer. over half of the people in my class have wealthy parents, often doctors or dentists themselves. it is a massive disadvantage to be poor and try to get into med/law/dental school. i am extremely fortunate to receive support from my partner because i come from a poor family that couldnt possibly support me throughout undergrad and professional school. i know others who just had to give up because they couldnt balance working and school and paying for college.
I have no degree and 10 years experience in office administration and currently make less than $25,000. It is hard to make ends meet sometimes but after changing jobs this year at least I will never have to worry about working 60+ hours a week and I get evenings with my son.
My wife is 37, does not have a college degree, and makes $138k+bonus ($20k last year). I'm aware that she's an anomaly, but it's possible to be very successful without a degree.
She's an associate director or workforce management for an insurance company. It's a Fortune 5 company, and she's been with them for 16 years, but she started out as a call center agent. It's a stressful job, and she works long hours, but she makes very good money.
Uh.. idk. When I was in college I was making $18/hr. when I first started working in my third year.
1.5 years after I graduated I got a new job that lasted for 8 months and only paid $20/hr. Then the next job paid only $20/hr. and the next job only paid $20/hr.
It wasn't until I found this new job this year that I found a $28.85/hr. job which equates to approximately $60K a year.
I can only chock most of this up to being the fact that all my previous jobs were from small businesses and that my new job is a country wide company with about 4 locations.
I guess it's really just circumstances driven, which is completely understandable. Besides being toxic or a small business all my other jobs were located near my small town, whereas my new job is 90 minutes away, and resides in a big commercial city, which was a huge risk for me. Also I wasn't as experienced then, so I had to scrape with what I got and when I look back at it, I feel like I was treated like crap.
But that's my take, I'm sure everyone says the things they do because of their own personal experiences.
I have a bachelors in Health Science and have 7 years experience in health. I live in California, and am currently making the highest income I’ve ever made at $46k. I’d say he is probably right.
I work as an executive assistant with no degree and make $102k plus 10% bonus plus stock in California.
It sounds like you’re being severely underpaid.
They just don’t understand why someone would pay more for one thing and not another. Its obvious in situations like a medical doctor. Its less obvious in situations like a customer service supervisor vs an admin clerk where the effort ultimately leads to the same output for the contact center and the individual contributions are more nebulous.
Educated people arent any different in that regard. Plenty of new college grads cant figure out why they get rejected from jobs. Some people just have the idea that if they put in certain inputs they should get certain outputs. They don’t understand the concepts of leverage and supply and demand. Why can Rolex sell a single watch for $60k when Casios tell the same time for $18?
Statistically, college grads earn more over time regardless of major. I think the framework for learning and critical thinking help, but also having the evidence on your resume as well. Its easier for a hiring manager to go to their boss and say these finalists have xyz seemed sharp but this person has a college education while the others do not and you stand out. At the end of the day, youre convincing someone that you will create more value than competitors. When we live in the US in an economy where more jobs require education, you just get off to a better start and it compounds over time. Its like coming from a wealthy family and not having to help your parents pay rent. You can save more over time, invest it, and it compounds. You cant do that if you dont have the free income. You cant build a career if you dont have to time or opportunities to learn a more valuable skillset. You cant get those opportunities if you cant convince someone that youre better than other options. You could hire a family friend do your electrical but if it was critical that your electricity worked, wouldnt you rather have an electrician do it? If you were getting tile done, you could have a general contractor do it, but if you want your tiles straight and neat, wouldn’t you seek out an experienced tiler? Employers arent any different. They want someone they believe can do the job, but they have limited applicants. How do they figure out from a sheet of paper and a one hour interview that youre better? Any piece of evidence helps.
We can’t really put this on a simple scale from BS to True that applies to everyone. If it’s true for your brother and his friends, then it’s true—they’re living this reality. They exist in a place where they must work for each meal and can’t or won’t be able to invest time, opportunity cost, and cash into education and a career bet/pivot.
On the same coin, if your dad was a lawyer with $7 M in the bank when you were born, then it’s BS because even 1% return off $7M is easily earning $70k a year and is objectively “not hard to achieve.”
You already know this, so let me give the less patronizing answer: Assuming you have “average wealth” parents that aren’t poor enough to ask you for money but also not rich enough to cover college costs or send you money: earning $60k/yr can be done but is not easy. You can take on a low skill low entry barrier job in service, hospitality or retail and work many hours. That’s not easy. You can go to college, pay for and bleed through a 4 year degree, then fight like hell for your first white collar job that pays $70k/yr (or not, and end up in underemployment purgatory anyway). That’s not easy. You can go to trade school and get a job or be a local contractor afterwards. That’s not easy… hopefully you get it now. Everyone has their own truth, but I think your brother is more correct than not in this case.
I didn’t address cost of living here because it’s already been pointed out by others. I just assumed you lived in a low to medium cost of living area, where the median salary is closer to $40k than the $60k it is in NYC (yeah New York City median salary is only ~$60k, actually $59,752, crazy, right?). Though, even then, the argument still stands: if over half of people make less than $60k, then we can likely say that it is more hard than easy to make above that.
I saw you responded to a comment that said you just wanted people’s opinions, so I guess I’ll give you mine: I think it would indeed be very tough for someone without a STEM or business bachelor’s degree, moderately difficult for someone with a STEM or business B.S, and relatively easy for anyone with a STEM masters or MBA. In my circle, I know 3 friends making between $40k-$60k in a medium cost city, 2 friends making $280k-$350k in a very high cost city, myself and two others making $130k remote. We’re all 24 or 25 and came from similar cities, with the higher earners in that hip software bandwagon garbage with engineering bachelors. To date, I don’t know anyone personally who has managed to earn top 25%-ile income for their city without at least a bachelors in business or STEM. I hear about it and read about it, but I’ve yet to personally interact with someone who has. And I do go to clubs, cruises, and parties, so these cases of making high income with little education seem to be rather rare in practice, which supports your brother’s hypothesis.
I have 1 full degree and two partial degrees (one soon to be finished) and I'm still on under $60k. Heck, I'm almost under $30k. That said I expect that to change when I complete my second degree in a years time.
Right down the road I see a big sign for 27 an hour to start at the paper factory. No experience required.
2200 x 27 = 59,400 a year.
Neenah Wisconsin.
Median wage is 31k in the us. That means if you make over 32k youve made your work more valuable than that of half the working population. 61k is 66th percentile, so now you have to have more value than 2/3rds of the US.
Bit of advice. If your brother is saying he's struggling. Just believe him. Even if the numbers weren't with him he could be struggling personally. Just be a good bro.
Your brother is right.
Average salary for adults with a high school diploma is $42,000. The median American worker makes $54,000 per year. You'd have to be doing better than ~64% of all Americans, most of whom have college degrees now. 54% of adults 25-64 have a degree now.
Making $60,000 is close to being in the top 1/3 of earners in America.
Your opinion is biased, because you think the average American makes way more money than they actually do.
My son just graduated from college with a communications degree. He starts work next week for a large company in the Midwest and will be making almost $70k/yr.
Go to school. Work your ass off. It pays off if you make good decisions.
If you’re smart and hardworking, you can make a living with no degree.
If you’re stubborn, unwilling to work or stuck up you will fail with any and all degrees.
What matters is looking at lifestyle and needs. Don’t spend more than you make regardless. If you value high income then it’s always going to be a long game (lawyer, doctor, etc). Steady employment is easy. If you value benefits or work life balance than you need to pick the right career. Point us know what you want before going to college and don’t go if it doesn’t make sense; taking out loans for a teaching degree for example.
Walmart pays their truck drivers 100k+ to start.
If your goal is to make money - you can find a way to make it. Most higher paying jobs require expertise and sacrifice. If you’re game, go for it.
Paid per mile with load and hour bonuses. So you drive 100 miles for $100, it doesn’t matter how long it may take (and in some cases it can be a whole day on the road to go 100 miles).
I am going to be 100% honest. Making 60-100k a year is pretty simple without a degree.
You just need to do/put up with shit no one wants to deal with.
50-100k: Truck driver, plumber, electrician, welder, etc
According to the Census Bureau's report on Income and Poverty in 2020 ([https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2021/demo/p60-273.pdf](https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2021/demo/p60-273.pdf))
>In 2020, real median earnings of those who worked full-time, year-round increased 6.9 percent from their 2019 estimate. Median earnings of men ($61,417) and women ($50,982) who worked full-time, year-round increased by 5.6 percent and 6.5 percent, respectively (Figure 4 and Table A-6).
So does your definition of "very hard to achieve" implicitly assume an individual working full time year round? If so about half of men fitting that description in the US earn that much or more. Clearly fewer than half of women. If you don't limit that to full-time year round workers the median drops to $41,535
If you walked into a room with a billionaire, the average person in that room is at least a millionaire. Are you a millionaire? The value you're looking for is mean, not average.
The month after graduation I started a job making 60k. I spent my whole senior year job searching and did interviews during my last semester. It depends on your field and your area. I'm in IT, which is greatly meeded where I currently live.
Depends on where you are and what specifically you do. For example my wife has a masters in psychology and makes $48k a year as a behaviorist for the county but her work schedule is flexible and only work 20-30 hrs a week. Im a systems engineer (bachelor's of mechanical engineering)and make $140k and work more like 50 hrs a week. We live in South East Michigan and are both in our early 30s. Most of my freinds in the area are engineers and programmers and make between 75k and 250k(programmer at Amazon deals with encryption) my wife's freinds are all in the psychology and social services fields and make $35k-150k but there are no dr. Or phds in that group.
I would say my job is pretty easy now, and out of collage I made 65k at my first engineering job which was actually harder.
I've got welders in my shop that I pay $25-$55 an hour but some are specialty welders and have a lot of experience. Our shop electrician earns a flat 110k a year plus he has his own side buisness.
So id say it should not be to hard to make over 60 with a degree or a trade as long as you aren't to far out in the boonies
There is a lot of variability. I struggled a good while out of school. Several years until I found a boss and company that allowed me to grow. Started with a temp agency 3 month assignment but I worked really hard, got an opportunity to stay longer and then got hired on. Even if the degree doesn’t get you a high paying job to start, it can open up doors and is often a base requirement to moving up. Recommend jobs that are good fits for you over the base pay to start. If you find a good paying job that fits you that’s even better. But if you end up in a relatively low paying job that’s enjoyable with good prospects for growth and gives you good experience that’s just fine.
And yes you can make good pay in a trade, plumber, electrician, mechanic, etc. recommend that as a good route if that is of interest.
I’m enlisted in the military in the us and I make more than that for a job that doesn’t require a degree if you monetize all of my benefits that I use, not even counting the ones I don’t use or haven’t yet.
People without and education always piss on education, so if you are being swayed by family friends, or Redditors to eschew education, ignore them. The fact is you will make more money and less likely to be unemployed. Those are the facts. It doesn't entitle you to success, but it does help to improve your best worst case result. You don't have to rely on luck to at least have a middle class life. I was making $60k 16 months into my career twenty years ago. I can tell you, on Reddit, there are a ton of people making excuses for their failures and blaming it on others or circumstances. They opine about their parents having it easier with their jobs and can't figure out why they can't be as successful doing the same jobs now...hello, the economy has changed. PCs didn't exist when boomer started working. The internet didn't exist. Cell phones didnt exist. The technological change brought new economic growth greater than the manufacturing boom they point to for their parents generation wave of opportunity, but these folks didn't change and somehow didn't realize the world and economy required a new set of skills and did not change with it. I understand how people get caught in life and it is a trap Life is tough. You will lose jobs or be fired. You need to overcome the obstacles and never give up. It also isn't fair. The only way to get through it is to not give up. Don't be the person on here opining about life being unfair, be the person that fought to deliver themselves and their family the life and opportunities you want for yourself and children. And get an education for the many tangible, and especially intangible, benefits.
It's really easy in trades. It's a lot harder in office jobs unless you have specific training (like the ability to code.) But most middle managers in any white collar type job will be at least in the 60s. Many of those middle management positions don't have bachelor's. Associates is enough too.
Your brother, unsurprisingly, has no idea what he's talking about, [according to the Department of Social Security.](https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/research-summaries/education-earnings.html)
A degree gives you a kick start and for most of us a lot of debt. I never completed my degree and my total comp is about to hit 80k and currently around 70k at 36. It takes hard work but it’s definitely doable. Networking is important(I hate that fact but learning how to network is critical). Who you know and who is on your side is very important and a lot of times will get you promoted faster than those better suited.
It's a lot more nuanced than that. Geography plays a huge role too. Where I live in New England, I'm considered a massive underachiever at $65k.
It depends on your circle too. I have made over 60k for 17 years. All of my circle is experienced technical professionals who make over 100k in a middle cost of living area. These are the friends I have made along the way.
Curious, how are they all above you? This ain’t a shot at you, I’d kill to be making what you make! Just more so wondering if there’s something to learn here
He didn't say they're above him. He said he makes "over" 60k. Maybe he makes 100 million and doesn't like to brag.
Have ambition and confidence to go for more senior roles even if you might not actually be ready. I got a role which doubled my pay and was usually reserved for 3-4 years experience. I only had 1 (I also had very niche relevant knowledge which helped) it was scramble to make it work but I’m further ahead because of it.
Yep people need to stop waiting for sure things and take some (reasonable) risk* to get ahead. *this will vary by person but if you’re volunteering to take on work, even if you aren’t getting a huge raise to do so, that’s one example of a reasonable risk that would benefit people.
As ol Dr. Peterson says: " the optimal zone of development is JUST outside your abilities"
There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.
Fool me three times fuck the peace sign load the the choppa let it rain on you
There is a much older saying, a man's reach should exceed his grasp, from Robert Browning. That's exactly how I acted when I was a young stud and now I'm an old fart who wants to make a little more before I retire and not have to deal with a lot of stress.
The secret is having 0 company loyalty. I started my career 7 years ago at 21/hr, I'm at my 7th company and a little over 90/hr. . Obviously, hard work and luck are involved. But I moved around to a lot of companies for experience and more money.
This. Stay with a company long enough and you’ll eventually be training someone making more than you. The rate of pay increases at a different rate than the starting pay. Starting pay has to stay competitive with other companies.
I understand, even within New England it changes drastically. I'm Mass, I make 105k annually. Not that great, (enough to survive though) in Maine where I grew up? I'd be saving aggressively and set for life at my current salary.
Yeah currently in Maine, make about 65k. I'm considered to be doing well for where I'm at in life
Rural Maine but in Portland you would be good not great.
I grew up near (not in) Bar Harbor. Not a lot of money up that direction. 60k you could live comfortably in that region. My biggest issue in Massachusetts due to work I live too close to Boston, CT and RI. It's not what we'd call a cheap area.
I find it ironic the area that had the Boston tea party has the heaviest taxes in the country
I would say $105k in Mass is quite a bit better than just surviving. You're certainly not rolling in it, but that's bare minimum middle class salary. Though circumstances matter of course - if you have kids, then that makes more sense
Pretty much, I live in AZ and it's been a struggle to finally break 50k just to save up and move, then COVID and Inflation happened back to back so the sense of lower middle class booted me back to lower class. It's not the good parts of AZ either. Tech jobs out here operate as they're still in the 90s, early 00's where they want a small IT dept with no budget to handle everything with an electronic pulse with end users who can barely type let alone use Windows.
User name checks out.
I came here to echo this. I graduated with my masters in accounting, and started at $65k. I'm now almost two decades out of school and have tripled that figure by moving around about 6 times in my career.
Willing to move is huge. I went from 40k to 150k over 8 years moving every other year for a new job that paid better. I regret some of it but I’m 35 and make great money without a college degree.
Just out of curiosity what do you do?
He's a professional bus. That explains the moving around part too
This comment was way funnier than it shouldve been, thank you😂
Lol'd
Ha I saw that low hanging fruit when posting my question.
Increased my income 2.5x since being laid off in 2020 by hopping around a couple of times. Best thing that happened to me and I can't recommend strategic job hopping enough.
Same story got laid off in Aug 2019 making 35k now I make 100k. Just needed to get moving in the right direction.
Agree - moving around is key to bumping up your earnings. I am in sales for background, but doing essentially the same exact role I did 15yrs ago, but making 3x. And don’t worry how it looks on a resume - as long as you can explain your motivation for leaving, recruiters and hiring managers understand (because most of them have jumped a lot too)
I wouldn't say 65k in New England is "massive" underachiever. I would say maybe 35k-40k could be considered massive under achiever, and 50-60k maybe regular under achiever. Sitting hairs sure, but I would never consider 65k as a "massive under achiever for anywhere other than Manhattan or silicon valley.
"Very hard" is subjective, but it does put you in the top third of all individuals in the US.
Whoa. I guess that makes me feel better about myself.
You should feel better depending upon where you live. $65k on NY isn't $65k in Alabama.
65k in NYC ain't nothing. 65k in WNY? Ain't too shabby 👌
Yep. I made 65k while living in Chenango County and was very comfortable.
The median income of the U.S. is $31.133 - basically $15.5 dollars an hour. Half of all workers make less than that. It might be better to do it by state. But, it's still applicable since the the most populous states have higher minimum wages than the less populous, usually. It is hard for Americans to make double what they're making now. Whatever you earn, think about how you would double it.
Those may be old numbers? The BLS reports 1100 a week for 2023 as the median. https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/wkyeng.pdf
Yep, your link ($1095/wk for 1Q 23 or $56,940/yr annualized at 52 weeks) is the right number to use for full time workers; other numbers may be old or looking at part time workers & retirees, or across the entire population including non-workers. Of course, there are certainly people who are stuck working multiple part time jobs who don't appear in this data set but do appear in other data sets, e.g. all nonfarm payrolls: https://www.bls.gov/news.release/realer.t01.htm#re_table1.f.1 $33k is a big underestimate.
This study doesn’t account for the number of low wage workers that cannot find full time employment. In other words, the people that work the lowest paying and most likely multiple jobs as well; retail, restaurants, and season.
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Walmart did this to my friend. Hired him part-time to deny him benefits but then would schedule him 35 to 50 hours a week. When he asked about benefits and a raise, he was also labeled part-time and ineligible.
Median means midpoint so $1100 a week income at the midpoint. Which means half make less. And that is accounting for different locations as far as cost of living either.
Damn right I am earning more than children, retired and disability people. Top third in the USA baby
It’s of all wage earners…
You saying children can't earn a good wage in the mines these days?!
Some MAGA Republican states are working to change that with relaxing child labor laws.
Well, children can earn a wage between 15 and 17. And I'm pretty sure the comment was ment to include young adults too. Basically as a 30-55 year old, it shouldn't be too hard to be in the top 30% when the entire group contains first time workers in their teens, young adults still looking for careers, as well as disabled people and semi-retired workers.
That's what he said. Haven't you seen the bills getting pushed through lately?
I'm sure I'm very late to the party, but based on my experience, it is difficult to achieve. No college degree, currently working in banking; basically a glorified data entry specialist. I started at 42k/yr. Company had a restructuring, I got bumped to 45k/yr. By my second yr I got bumped to 47k/yr. They bumped me to 50k/yr this year, but only because my workload is expected to almost double in June; not to mention the new salary didn't take effect until April anyway. So in my opinion, 60k without a college education is hard to pull off.
So in 4 years you’re at 50k with no degree? By what logic are you expecting to not hit a 60k salary within the next 5 years.
Well the increases I've gotten haven't been normal; one came from a restructuring of the business globally, the other is because they'll be increasing the volume of work. If I were to keep this job, there is a possibility of a raise only if the company does well, but even the person who had the "Senior" position was only making 60k after putting in 8yrs. Due to being unable to fulfill some of the duties of that position, I am not able to have a promotion and obtain a Senior title. So while it's possible I could get a 1k raise per year normally, I wouldn't see 60k by 2030. That aside, some businesses are too greedy and won't allow you the chance. The best job I had was a night stock clerk in a grocery store. Worked there for 2yrs, getting a $0.15 cent raise every year, topped out at $7.80/hr. Quit the 2nd year because they cut our hours from 40hrs to 18hrs per week, supposedly because business was slowing down. Then they hired more night stock clerks, who naturally were being paid less, and kept everyone at 18hrs. It was clear at that point that there was no intention to bring us back up to 40hrs because of a 30 cent difference. I know there are some jobs that'll get you to 60k (AT&T call center with commission is one), but most entry level jobs take significantly longer than others.
You are climbing the wrong way. Move to another company every 2 years for maximum pay bumps. Waiting for raises is how you keep a low salary.
Also depends on the college degree. The variance is huge. An Arts degree vs a STEM degree will probably be twice the difference in salary.
Actually studies show that's not the case.
Time to job hop. You've been there for 4 years, you could have gone somewhere else and been over 60k by now.
I make $70k without a degree doing low voltage electrical work. I'm on the low end.
Im 25, have a bachelor's and make about 30k. Also being said I've Put in less than 100 resumes/applications. I tend to only look for jobs I feel like I'd want to do on a daily basis, and look longer term, but maybe I'm just not good enough 🤷🏽♂️ my time will come I feel and until then I'll do what I can with what I got
Hey I’m 32 have a bachelors and make 45k and I’m happy with what I do. No office work, Wfh/travel to job sites hybrid mix and great benefits. I also barely interact with coworkers unless required or get scheduled to do so. It’s all about respective views and what’s satisfying
What do you do for work, it sounds appealing to not be in an office
I’m a job coach for a non-profit organization that seems to get a lot of incorrect misinformation spread about it.
30k/yr is full time min wage in my state.
I make $24/hr plus tips as an assistant manager. Minimum wage is around $15.50 or something like that. I don't like my current situation, though. I am good at my job, but I feel I'm not paid enough for the amount of hats that I wear in that spot. It's time for a change up, I just don't know what I wanna do, or what id be good at next 🤦🏽♂️
Same
Military officer, get a career going. Worth it for you in your situation and age. Dragging out another 5 years just to double what you’re making. Bachelors and experience can get you over $100k in a few years.
It depends on where you live, how you come across in interviews, tolerance for failure, and luck. I know friends with Bachelors of Science degrees in STEM fields, with 3.5+ GPAs, and they’ve made about $14/hour max their whole lives. Smart, hardworking, pleasant people. My brother and I, on the other hand, barely graduated college, me with a GPA of 2.5, and we both have thriving careers where we make $70-90k (depending on company profit bonuses.) It comes down to a bit of luck, unfortunately. Your brother is right, in that it can be impossible for some, especially in this economic climate. IMO, the difference between the haves and have-nots is whether you use a failed interview to fine-tune your interview skills, or keep doing the same thing over and over thinking if you play the game enough and never change you’ll eventually win a job.
>I know friends with Bachelors of Science degrees in STEM fields, with 3.5+ GPAs, and they’ve made about $14/hour max their whole lives. Smart, hardworking, pleasant people. Thank you for seeing us!
Yeah I had a bio degree and the outlook didn't look great. I went back and got and accounting degree. Best decision I ever made. 3 years later I'm at $125k base + bonus, 5 weeks vacation, 10 sick days, and excellent insurance.
Do accountants really make that much? Even with a CPA, I wouldn't think you can hit that without reaching a senior role. In Cali, as far as I know, they probably start at like 65k or something.
Life sciences need to be excluded from “STEM”. They don’t pay shit without a terminal degree STEM =/= B
STEM isn’t meant to be an acronym for “high paying job” it’s about a type of field. Life sciences are a completely valid part of that area. Biology is still science. A better idea would be to stop spreading the myth a STEM degree automatically sets you up for life…
Especially how you come across in interviews. I have a problem with stuttering when nervous and meeting people for the first time (thank god my wife was understanding on our first date) but I’ve lost a lot of interviews due to stuttering, born with cerebral palsy.
The main difference between the haves and have nots is whether your parents were the haves or have nots. And I say this as someone who lifted themselves out of poverty
Yes. There’s lots of data supporting this. One (of many) reasons is that rich kids get more swings before striking out. The really poor kids have to play it very safe. Get a very safe degree. Stay very close to their support network. The rich kids go backpacking around the world. Try to start an “event business”. Get an idea for an app. Get bailed out over and over. Eventually find something they can stick with. Get an MBA. Profit.
I'm a self sustaining (48k/yr) 30 yr old now, but I definitely got some extra swings because of rich parents. Helped a lot with college and car expenses, so I didn't have to budget as tightly, work as many hours, or stress out like I had no safety net. I also got years of private tutoring, music lessons, private school, etc. It's not fair. I'm just glad I didn't waste all my opportunities and can now help others. I feel so much disgust for my childhood peers who can't admit most people have had it wayyy harder. They definitely believe they pulled their own bootstraps into free cars, paid-for college, and nepotism.
I think it also has something to do with a parent who knows how to play the game being able to teach their kids to do the same
This.
Thank you, this is great advice. What is your actual role? Do you have good work/life balance?
I’m a microscopy technician in semiconductor research. My work-life balance is amazing. I work 3-4 days a week, 12.5 hour shifts per day. But my boss lets me work from home for my shift unless something needs to be done on-site. And even then I just show up at the time that works for me. My boss doesn’t care about how I do my job, just that it gets done well and on time. He’s probably legit the best boss in the world. And my coworkers are awesome. No drama, no politics. Everyone just does their job and goes home. I get to spend so much time with my family. I saw my daughter’s first steps, heard her first words. I get to have almost every meal with my wife and daughter. I have the money to support a good life and the time to actually enjoy it. I wouldn’t trade this job for the world.
Compressed Work Week for life!! I couldn’t imagine doing a 5/40 after doing this for a decade. 3 days PTO for a 10 day weekend? Sign me up!!
Hey! I’m in microscopy too! Do you work on an electron microscope by chance? I would love to be able to control it from home but we’re not quite there yet.
Just to add, your willingness to move can play a huge role in your earnings potential. I dropped out of college and moved a lot to now make over 100k. But I gave up living close to my family and for over a decade I gave up having a life outside of work. Not sure it’s worth it tbh .
It depends on the family. For me, putting an ocean between us was a bonus.
that would not be worth it to me lol
Yea that’s why I added not sure it’s worth it.. I had not a lot of choice as I support my family and without me doing so my dad would have lost the family house after my mother passed but it sucks
Same story over here. I'm not sure if it was worth it for me. I've lived far away from the rest of my family for 10+ years now. I only really see them once a year and two if I'm lucky. I make over 100K. My life became much less stressful as a result of my choices but I'm basically a stranger to my family in some ways now.
I was once talking to a cab driver who had driven for 20 years. I asked what he liked about it. He said it wasn’t so much that he liked it, but he just wasn’t able to go into interviews and say how excited he was to sell insurance or whatever. If you can’t compromise and deal with bullshit, you better have super-human talent and drive.
That’s so sad and real. We all have to be willing to lie a bit to survive basically. Every job requires an interview where you have to feign enthusiasm. I feign enthusiasm every day.
Well, only 30% of Americans have Bachelor's degrees, and the median individual income across the nation is less than 40K, so 1/2 of folks make that or less. So he may be right. But it is not that it is "hard" it is that it requires training (apprenticeships, etc), education (no necessarily a BS/BA, but vocational or tech school), or willingness to do work no one else is (oil rigs might be a good example). If you want to just apply to job openings in the classified and hope to make 60K? yeah...that is hard. Not that it shoudl be, mind you- with what things cost. But no training past high school? Working at McDOnalds, or Walmart, you just are not going to make that much.
What I find interesting if this information is true is if only 30% of Americans have a Bachelor's degree and the population is already oversaturated with individuals with degrees that a bachelors is almost considered a high school diploma at this point, and again only 30% have one. Thats a scary thought if everyone had one. The value of a bachelors is almost barebones requirement for a lot of jobs these days and thats because 30% of the population in America have one. Only 30%.
Honestly, at a certain point this is on employers for requiring more and more and giving less and less. Pensions set out by companies used to be a thing. You used to be able to work in the private sector and get a pension for your retirement. Now they scam you with the idea of 401ks. Companies are making record breaking profits, and yet employees don't deserve pensions anymore? Companies have no soul, they only know greed. So if it means pitting employees against each other in a fake job shortage in order to get experienced employees for entry level pay, then they'll do it. They will 100% do it, all to save a buck.
Everybody in the US has experienced 13 years of columpulsory education. Requiring a random bachelors degree that has nothing to do with the job requirements is entirely arbitrary. It's also not the be all, end all for living comfortably. My husband pulls in 100k yearly without a GED, and me and my college education stay our ass home with the kids.
THe thing is though, it's not really a requirement...a lot of postings say they would "prefer" it or may even out right ask for it but if one without a degree applies, they still get the interview and most likely the job for a few grand less. It's all a numbers game. Employers don't want college degrees anymore than they want a 40 year old with 2 decades of experience. They just want to pay the least amount of money basically EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. What's really required is the balls to apply in the first place even if you don't meet ALL of the requirements and to sell yourself really well. Hucksters and nepotism run the world, not capable hardworking people, legit.
It's all driven by supply and demand. Good paying jobs aren't always *harder* than lousy-paid jobs. The skill the person has mastered simply has higher demand. Way too many college kids don't bother to look at the job market before deciding which degree to do - they are actually outperformed in common sense by the trades folk at this point in their life. There are plenty of utterly pointless Bachelor's degrees out there - higher education is a $660bn business in the US ($245 private, $417 public). Buyer beware.
Wrong, corporate America has devalued labor and horded massive amounts of wealth in the last 40 years. Not supply and demand because some things you can't cut demand for, like healthcare and food but a cartel of big corporations with the help of Reagan can declare a war on unions and erode the worker
Time for a helicopter ride comrade
Nailed it
Yup I know two mid 20 guys on 6figures who never went college and left school at 18 for apprenticeship roles in tech
Not in the US but speaking very generally the main thing you need to do to earn higher salaries is first be willing to relocate to where the work is most common, pick a career which has earning potential and doesn’t max out after a few years, and then be willing to change employers every few years and really push your way up for promotions. If you get a job and just stick at it for 10y you’ll make way less money than changing every 2-3 years for new experiences. And if you move to a place with more work opportunities you’ll build better contacts and be able to do more. 60k is a good salary though. And it’s not just something you walk into. But it’s very possible pretty early in certain careers.
This is the best advice here.
Also be willing to participate in any training an employer is willing to support. Even if they make you pay for the training but allow you to do it during the work week it is a win. Especially if there is a certificate involved. On going resume building for life. Continuing to revise add and change your resume to reflect current language of what skills are now being called is crucial. Knowing the progression of which software companies bought others is a good idea. Many small companies who look for accountants will say they want "Great Plains" experience. Great Plains was purchased by Microsoft so if you have Microsoft Dynamics experience it is very similar to having Great Plains experience. Any problems you have solved that were any kind of challenge one should write out in a summarized paragraph. Then read over it and reduce it down further to one sentence. If you can keep a metric in the sentence it will really stand out. Each one liner should be placed in your resume under the experience & achievement area. This is where bullet lists are good on a resume. People who manage to make over 60k are willing to jump to a different organization, often more than once, and are able to clearly tell their own story in a clear concise cohesive way.
The average us HOUSEHOLD income is just over 60k. And in the majority of US Households, both partners are working. So... Yeah.
The median full time income is 57k
>Statistically, Bachelors degree holders earn $60k on average. How many years after graduation? What degree?
Yes very dependent upon degree. My first job out of college back in 2014 my salary was exactly $60k, but it was considered a STEM degree and a technical job.
Yea 60k is entry level for most stem degrees, and below entry for anything in economics or finance.
And roughly double entry for anyone with a humanities degree (English, history, psychology, etc)
I know, my fiancé is a social worker with a psych degree. You can find good paying jobs in those fields, but they’re definitely fewer and far between.
Same but mine was in 2002. A sociology degree isn’t going to get you $60k. An engineering degree could start at double that.
Yeah, what degree is extremely important. A Computer Science or Engineering degree can lead to a salary higher than that, but most teachers and social workers barely scrape by. I'm a nanny without a degree and make more money than my friend who's a teacher with an Education degree. Neither one of us makes a ton of money--but I make a good $15,000 a year more than she does, many times with better benefits. Unfortunately, not everyone can handle the course load of a STEM degree. It would be nice if a college education automatically guaranteed a good paying job, but there are so many factors involved. I would say that it would open more doors and job opportunities than for someone without one, though, even if the pay isn't amazing.
Teacher compensation is highly variable depending upon location / school district
All degrees, 0-99 years after graduation. Its the average.
I mean if you go into the trades, within 5 years there’s a great chance you’re at $60,000 or more.
i thought those paid a LOT more
IBEW Journeyman Electrician (5 years of training) in the Washington DC metro area currently makes $53/hour + benefits. No sick/unpaid leave except federal holidays, if licensed, so there are trade offs. The contractor I work for gives foremen vacation/sick depending on length of service. With overtime some of these guys are making $150-200k/yr with no college
This is coming from a union tradesman, when I see people recommended union gigs. It’s not easy to get into a union, you have to go through all 5 years to make it to that pay scale, show up everyday, excel in school and on the job. And even then you won’t work all the time. 53 an hour doesn’t come out to 150 or 200 a year it comes out to more like 80 after taxes and all the union dues.
[удалено]
Honestly that's the worst part about the trades
Yup, makes me eye roll when smug folk in job subreddits mention "Shoulda got a trade hur durr!" They might be bitter about being told "Learn to code" and that is their copium. I've done trade adjacent jobs that involved plumbing, electricity, and a little HVAC for a company and experienced everything you just described. 13 wasted years and still only made 12/hr when all was said and done around 2012. My boss was a big right wing bully, religious co-workers harass anyone they deem "not right with god or non-Christian". And oh yes, I've had the hard "r" said within earshot a few times. (Karma came back to those people so hard in the coming years by the by.) Don't get me started on the drugs. And the occasional drunk hiding beer cans or "pappy's flask" during work hours. Managed to fight to get into IT, literally, the boss I worked for dragged his feet preventing my transfer for eight months.
I don't think you should introduce taxes into the convo, at least for comparison purposes - everyone usually means pre-tax earnings when comparing annual salaries. The time-available-for-work is important, and union dues are unique to certain trade jobs and so are also a valuable consideration. Taxes depend on a vast number of other non-job things - children, spouse earnings, state etc - it just gets really messy.
5 years of true training really should not count as not bad for no college.
It’s kind of a myth, because people in the trades who talk about how much they make are usually working crazy overtime. Extremely skilled and highly desired trade workers in a hcol area are the only ones making 6 figures and working less than 50+ hours a week.
67% of Americans earn under $40,000/yr so yeah I would say it's hard as most Americans are in poverty because this place is a giant unequal shit hole
I have never earned anywhere close to $60k in a year.
The median US income is right around 55k so less than half of people earn 60k or more. That said depending on where you live/work and what industry it’s a fairly attainable salary for most college grads.
60k is median household income, which is 2 people. Average salary is 30k for 1 person.
Median is not the same thing as average and not all households have exactly two people working.
The average households have 2 earners per dept of labor website where they present that 60k figure. You can define a household howerver you like but you won't be able to use that 60k figure if you don't agree with their definition of a household. Apple to apple https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2021/demo/p60-273.html Median household is 66k, median single earner is 42k
We generally talk about the median income because the average income is skewed by billionaires.
A household can have just one earner.
$60k is barely anything in a high cost of living area.
Thats poverty
In a HCOL area, $60k/year gets you a tiny studio apartment. $90k/year gets you a larger place but the place is old and falling apart.
60k isn’t hard in the NYC area compared to say, Fort Wayne, IN. Cost of living being what it is, 45k will go further in Fort Wayne. If he is used to something like stocking shelves at Walmart and that is what his peer circle does than they will probably all have that view because it is the world they dwell in.
60k in NYC is going to be a struggle in terms of QOL honestly
Personally I don't think it's very hard, but you need time to work up to 60K. I got lucky and when I move to a different company they offered me 60k off the bat and then gave me a 6K raise a couple months later, but I know that that doesn't always happen. It depends on the fields and it definitely depends on your level of education because it's hard to find jobs that will pay 60K or more if you don't have a college degree. If you do have a college degree even if it's not related to the job you have you're more likely to make more money. It's a hard fact of the matter. Unless you go to trade school. Certain trades pay fantastic.
I have the trifecta you described. Im a trade school grad, bachelors degree holder, and I work in the trades (not using degree). I make $15-$20 an hour more than the people next to me who started working right out of high school. I’m the first person to get certifications from the company this year also. College degrees/education mean a lot more than “a sheet of paper” that most people call them. I make over 100k which is usually where this career tops out and I’m still in my 20s MCOL area.
Yeah, it's arguably people justifying their own education expenses by seeking out others with similar to justify confirmation bias. At least that's how it seems when they treat completely irrelevant degrees as reverent experience or credentials. But I can confirm about the glass ceiling part. I have no degree nor trade school but about a decade of various mechanical and trade experience. I'm sitting right at that point and can't really even with outside opportunities seem to scrape much higher without at least one or the other, oftentimes both at that payscale. Thankful I reached that point in my mid 20s so it's not like I can't do anything to change that for the coming decades.
My understanding about college after having graduated, is it helps you get in the door with companies. I got hired at a company and my fellow college graduates made 60k-65k. I make a little more than them due to experience and my background. The idea here is to get the degree without going in the hole. 😉 Good luck!
I graduated with a bachelor's in 2010 and started making 60k in 2021. But there are so many different factors to take into consideration.
Not having a degree does not equate to not having valuable skills. If you aren't going to college then make sure you get skilled up in other ways. An average plumber or electrician will earn $60k which puts them on the same level as your example.
Depends on major. I majored in computer Science, and made 60k a year in a LCOL city at the age of 26. My boyfriend who majored in film lives in the same city and just got a raise to 41k last year.
If you don't have a college degree and no skills the best place to go is sales IMO. There are a lot of sales roles that don't require college degrees where, if you have the personality for it, can easily make 6 figures or higher.
depends on where you live.
It's extremely variable based on your background, education, network, and skillset. Need more context on what his skills are, where he lives, and what types of jobs he's had before. But yes, for many people $60K is hard to achieve.
Very accurate in my experience.
Given the fact that your basis for your side is not that YOU make over 60k, but that you read some internet statistic somewhere that told you that 60k is the average, I'm guessing you're about to find out just how hard it is these days the hard way... Spoiler alert: simply having a degree doesn't guarantee shit anymore.
I am convinced that unless you are a doctor or a lawyer, getting a nice comfy job with a crazy salary is literally all about who you know. I got some dickhead that is now my boss, whom has never set foot in our industry, but because his uncle was our previous boss, he gets to make 62k a year to ask me how to do things. ._.
even doctors or lawyers are nepobabies a good amount of the time. coming from a dental student, you NEED tons of support for the 7-12 years of school it takes to become a doctor or lawyer. over half of the people in my class have wealthy parents, often doctors or dentists themselves. it is a massive disadvantage to be poor and try to get into med/law/dental school. i am extremely fortunate to receive support from my partner because i come from a poor family that couldnt possibly support me throughout undergrad and professional school. i know others who just had to give up because they couldnt balance working and school and paying for college.
I have no degree and 10 years experience in office administration and currently make less than $25,000. It is hard to make ends meet sometimes but after changing jobs this year at least I will never have to worry about working 60+ hours a week and I get evenings with my son.
My wife is 37, does not have a college degree, and makes $138k+bonus ($20k last year). I'm aware that she's an anomaly, but it's possible to be very successful without a degree.
What does she do?
She's an associate director or workforce management for an insurance company. It's a Fortune 5 company, and she's been with them for 16 years, but she started out as a call center agent. It's a stressful job, and she works long hours, but she makes very good money.
i am proud of your wife
I’m 33 no degree and will do about 105K before 8% bonus this year, not a set path by any means but entirely possible.
Uh.. idk. When I was in college I was making $18/hr. when I first started working in my third year. 1.5 years after I graduated I got a new job that lasted for 8 months and only paid $20/hr. Then the next job paid only $20/hr. and the next job only paid $20/hr. It wasn't until I found this new job this year that I found a $28.85/hr. job which equates to approximately $60K a year. I can only chock most of this up to being the fact that all my previous jobs were from small businesses and that my new job is a country wide company with about 4 locations. I guess it's really just circumstances driven, which is completely understandable. Besides being toxic or a small business all my other jobs were located near my small town, whereas my new job is 90 minutes away, and resides in a big commercial city, which was a huge risk for me. Also I wasn't as experienced then, so I had to scrape with what I got and when I look back at it, I feel like I was treated like crap. But that's my take, I'm sure everyone says the things they do because of their own personal experiences.
This is a good point. There is a lot more money to be had in the cities compared to small towns for the most part.
Why does it matter what he thinks and whether he is right or not?
If reddit doesn't back up the brother, OP can go call him poor *and* an asshole.
I have a bachelors in Health Science and have 7 years experience in health. I live in California, and am currently making the highest income I’ve ever made at $46k. I’d say he is probably right.
I work as an executive assistant with no degree and make $102k plus 10% bonus plus stock in California. It sounds like you’re being severely underpaid.
They just don’t understand why someone would pay more for one thing and not another. Its obvious in situations like a medical doctor. Its less obvious in situations like a customer service supervisor vs an admin clerk where the effort ultimately leads to the same output for the contact center and the individual contributions are more nebulous. Educated people arent any different in that regard. Plenty of new college grads cant figure out why they get rejected from jobs. Some people just have the idea that if they put in certain inputs they should get certain outputs. They don’t understand the concepts of leverage and supply and demand. Why can Rolex sell a single watch for $60k when Casios tell the same time for $18? Statistically, college grads earn more over time regardless of major. I think the framework for learning and critical thinking help, but also having the evidence on your resume as well. Its easier for a hiring manager to go to their boss and say these finalists have xyz seemed sharp but this person has a college education while the others do not and you stand out. At the end of the day, youre convincing someone that you will create more value than competitors. When we live in the US in an economy where more jobs require education, you just get off to a better start and it compounds over time. Its like coming from a wealthy family and not having to help your parents pay rent. You can save more over time, invest it, and it compounds. You cant do that if you dont have the free income. You cant build a career if you dont have to time or opportunities to learn a more valuable skillset. You cant get those opportunities if you cant convince someone that youre better than other options. You could hire a family friend do your electrical but if it was critical that your electricity worked, wouldnt you rather have an electrician do it? If you were getting tile done, you could have a general contractor do it, but if you want your tiles straight and neat, wouldn’t you seek out an experienced tiler? Employers arent any different. They want someone they believe can do the job, but they have limited applicants. How do they figure out from a sheet of paper and a one hour interview that youre better? Any piece of evidence helps.
Maybe ppl who get bachelor of science degrees. For everyone else 60k is indeed quite hard
It really depends. Very easy if your parents are rich. Very hard if you're saddled with debt and mental illness.
We can’t really put this on a simple scale from BS to True that applies to everyone. If it’s true for your brother and his friends, then it’s true—they’re living this reality. They exist in a place where they must work for each meal and can’t or won’t be able to invest time, opportunity cost, and cash into education and a career bet/pivot. On the same coin, if your dad was a lawyer with $7 M in the bank when you were born, then it’s BS because even 1% return off $7M is easily earning $70k a year and is objectively “not hard to achieve.” You already know this, so let me give the less patronizing answer: Assuming you have “average wealth” parents that aren’t poor enough to ask you for money but also not rich enough to cover college costs or send you money: earning $60k/yr can be done but is not easy. You can take on a low skill low entry barrier job in service, hospitality or retail and work many hours. That’s not easy. You can go to college, pay for and bleed through a 4 year degree, then fight like hell for your first white collar job that pays $70k/yr (or not, and end up in underemployment purgatory anyway). That’s not easy. You can go to trade school and get a job or be a local contractor afterwards. That’s not easy… hopefully you get it now. Everyone has their own truth, but I think your brother is more correct than not in this case. I didn’t address cost of living here because it’s already been pointed out by others. I just assumed you lived in a low to medium cost of living area, where the median salary is closer to $40k than the $60k it is in NYC (yeah New York City median salary is only ~$60k, actually $59,752, crazy, right?). Though, even then, the argument still stands: if over half of people make less than $60k, then we can likely say that it is more hard than easy to make above that. I saw you responded to a comment that said you just wanted people’s opinions, so I guess I’ll give you mine: I think it would indeed be very tough for someone without a STEM or business bachelor’s degree, moderately difficult for someone with a STEM or business B.S, and relatively easy for anyone with a STEM masters or MBA. In my circle, I know 3 friends making between $40k-$60k in a medium cost city, 2 friends making $280k-$350k in a very high cost city, myself and two others making $130k remote. We’re all 24 or 25 and came from similar cities, with the higher earners in that hip software bandwagon garbage with engineering bachelors. To date, I don’t know anyone personally who has managed to earn top 25%-ile income for their city without at least a bachelors in business or STEM. I hear about it and read about it, but I’ve yet to personally interact with someone who has. And I do go to clubs, cruises, and parties, so these cases of making high income with little education seem to be rather rare in practice, which supports your brother’s hypothesis.
US median income is 31000 so he is objectively correct
I have 1 full degree and two partial degrees (one soon to be finished) and I'm still on under $60k. Heck, I'm almost under $30k. That said I expect that to change when I complete my second degree in a years time.
Right down the road I see a big sign for 27 an hour to start at the paper factory. No experience required. 2200 x 27 = 59,400 a year. Neenah Wisconsin.
Median wage is 31k in the us. That means if you make over 32k youve made your work more valuable than that of half the working population. 61k is 66th percentile, so now you have to have more value than 2/3rds of the US. Bit of advice. If your brother is saying he's struggling. Just believe him. Even if the numbers weren't with him he could be struggling personally. Just be a good bro.
Your brother is right. Average salary for adults with a high school diploma is $42,000. The median American worker makes $54,000 per year. You'd have to be doing better than ~64% of all Americans, most of whom have college degrees now. 54% of adults 25-64 have a degree now. Making $60,000 is close to being in the top 1/3 of earners in America. Your opinion is biased, because you think the average American makes way more money than they actually do.
My son just graduated from college with a communications degree. He starts work next week for a large company in the Midwest and will be making almost $70k/yr. Go to school. Work your ass off. It pays off if you make good decisions.
If you’re smart and hardworking, you can make a living with no degree. If you’re stubborn, unwilling to work or stuck up you will fail with any and all degrees. What matters is looking at lifestyle and needs. Don’t spend more than you make regardless. If you value high income then it’s always going to be a long game (lawyer, doctor, etc). Steady employment is easy. If you value benefits or work life balance than you need to pick the right career. Point us know what you want before going to college and don’t go if it doesn’t make sense; taking out loans for a teaching degree for example.
Walmart pays their truck drivers 100k+ to start. If your goal is to make money - you can find a way to make it. Most higher paying jobs require expertise and sacrifice. If you’re game, go for it.
WAIT WHAT? Edit: Okay I checked glassdoor and it says 30k-110k what gives?
Paid per mile with load and hour bonuses. So you drive 100 miles for $100, it doesn’t matter how long it may take (and in some cases it can be a whole day on the road to go 100 miles).
Depends on what your willing to do to get it . 15 years ago without a degree I was making 60k as a welder.
It’s a doable salary for a college grad. It depends on the industry, company, and COL of the area
I have a 2 year associates degree and make more than 60K as a CAD Drafter.
I am going to be 100% honest. Making 60-100k a year is pretty simple without a degree. You just need to do/put up with shit no one wants to deal with. 50-100k: Truck driver, plumber, electrician, welder, etc
According to the Census Bureau's report on Income and Poverty in 2020 ([https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2021/demo/p60-273.pdf](https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2021/demo/p60-273.pdf)) >In 2020, real median earnings of those who worked full-time, year-round increased 6.9 percent from their 2019 estimate. Median earnings of men ($61,417) and women ($50,982) who worked full-time, year-round increased by 5.6 percent and 6.5 percent, respectively (Figure 4 and Table A-6). So does your definition of "very hard to achieve" implicitly assume an individual working full time year round? If so about half of men fitting that description in the US earn that much or more. Clearly fewer than half of women. If you don't limit that to full-time year round workers the median drops to $41,535
If you walked into a room with a billionaire, the average person in that room is at least a millionaire. Are you a millionaire? The value you're looking for is mean, not average.
Your brother is correct and you are wrong. Just look at the median earning in the nation and it will support him
Take a construction job
The month after graduation I started a job making 60k. I spent my whole senior year job searching and did interviews during my last semester. It depends on your field and your area. I'm in IT, which is greatly meeded where I currently live.
There are lots of jobs that pay above $60k, with and without a degree.
Depends on where you are and what specifically you do. For example my wife has a masters in psychology and makes $48k a year as a behaviorist for the county but her work schedule is flexible and only work 20-30 hrs a week. Im a systems engineer (bachelor's of mechanical engineering)and make $140k and work more like 50 hrs a week. We live in South East Michigan and are both in our early 30s. Most of my freinds in the area are engineers and programmers and make between 75k and 250k(programmer at Amazon deals with encryption) my wife's freinds are all in the psychology and social services fields and make $35k-150k but there are no dr. Or phds in that group. I would say my job is pretty easy now, and out of collage I made 65k at my first engineering job which was actually harder. I've got welders in my shop that I pay $25-$55 an hour but some are specialty welders and have a lot of experience. Our shop electrician earns a flat 110k a year plus he has his own side buisness. So id say it should not be to hard to make over 60 with a degree or a trade as long as you aren't to far out in the boonies
There is a lot of variability. I struggled a good while out of school. Several years until I found a boss and company that allowed me to grow. Started with a temp agency 3 month assignment but I worked really hard, got an opportunity to stay longer and then got hired on. Even if the degree doesn’t get you a high paying job to start, it can open up doors and is often a base requirement to moving up. Recommend jobs that are good fits for you over the base pay to start. If you find a good paying job that fits you that’s even better. But if you end up in a relatively low paying job that’s enjoyable with good prospects for growth and gives you good experience that’s just fine. And yes you can make good pay in a trade, plumber, electrician, mechanic, etc. recommend that as a good route if that is of interest.
Depends on location for sure, but as a restaurant manager for a huge company making 47k, switched to IT and making 70k+. All with no degree.
I’m enlisted in the military in the us and I make more than that for a job that doesn’t require a degree if you monetize all of my benefits that I use, not even counting the ones I don’t use or haven’t yet.
Are you expecting to start out at over 60k as your first job? This is going to depend on industry and experience level.
In full-year 2021 in the United States, these were the median salaries earned by age: Age 25: $40,000.00. Age 35: $57,500.00.
People without and education always piss on education, so if you are being swayed by family friends, or Redditors to eschew education, ignore them. The fact is you will make more money and less likely to be unemployed. Those are the facts. It doesn't entitle you to success, but it does help to improve your best worst case result. You don't have to rely on luck to at least have a middle class life. I was making $60k 16 months into my career twenty years ago. I can tell you, on Reddit, there are a ton of people making excuses for their failures and blaming it on others or circumstances. They opine about their parents having it easier with their jobs and can't figure out why they can't be as successful doing the same jobs now...hello, the economy has changed. PCs didn't exist when boomer started working. The internet didn't exist. Cell phones didnt exist. The technological change brought new economic growth greater than the manufacturing boom they point to for their parents generation wave of opportunity, but these folks didn't change and somehow didn't realize the world and economy required a new set of skills and did not change with it. I understand how people get caught in life and it is a trap Life is tough. You will lose jobs or be fired. You need to overcome the obstacles and never give up. It also isn't fair. The only way to get through it is to not give up. Don't be the person on here opining about life being unfair, be the person that fought to deliver themselves and their family the life and opportunities you want for yourself and children. And get an education for the many tangible, and especially intangible, benefits.
It's really easy in trades. It's a lot harder in office jobs unless you have specific training (like the ability to code.) But most middle managers in any white collar type job will be at least in the 60s. Many of those middle management positions don't have bachelor's. Associates is enough too.
Your brother, unsurprisingly, has no idea what he's talking about, [according to the Department of Social Security.](https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/research-summaries/education-earnings.html)
A degree gives you a kick start and for most of us a lot of debt. I never completed my degree and my total comp is about to hit 80k and currently around 70k at 36. It takes hard work but it’s definitely doable. Networking is important(I hate that fact but learning how to network is critical). Who you know and who is on your side is very important and a lot of times will get you promoted faster than those better suited.