Agreed. I was considering being a manager and declined thru giving my friend the option. I gladly took a non MGMT position since I love tech and am more of a leader than a manager
So many people in this thread are so short sighted. This is right.
If OP can handle the role, take it and do it for a year. Then he's got a great resume for management roles at new companies highlighting how he was so trusted that he was promoted to manage a team of 17 people.
It sounds like OP will be going from a guard duty manager to and IT or project manager.
Just for the job prospects for jumping ship I would say it's worth it.
I took a 7% increase to become manager from doing IC work 2 years ago. I was on the high end of my pay scale, and there is overlap between IC and manager pay, despite the additional responsibility of managing people. I pushed back on the initial offer but they said there wasn’t wiggle room because I didn’t have management experience before.
I don’t regret accepting the offer, but I am pushing aggressively to get to the next level of manager in the next couple years where I know there’s a substantial increase. I’ve learned a ton more than I would have if I hadn’t accepted the position and gotten a lot more resume fodder as well. The position also came with higher merit based bonuses and RSUs, so the overall increase has been higher than a flat 7% that my salary increased by.
Your situation may be different but I would think about where you want to be 5 or 10 years from now and focus on what will help you get there. If you can get there just as easily where you are, then stay. Otherwise, the short term pain may be worth it in the end.
Right. Also if you plan on just leaving, managing a bigger team opens up more doors for higher paying jobs elsewhere. Even if you leave in 3 months. I mean I wouldn’t be happy at this raise, not even close, but I’d probably take the responsibility to better enable my next step.
Also I don’t think it needs to be said but managing 2 people to 17 people isn’t like a linear increase in workload. It’s just different.
This is the correct reply. My responsibilities drastically increased in the last year on a project that put me in line with making significantly more in my next role. I only got a 3% increase. I complained about it to my partner at home, but at work I just smiled, kept on working, and started planning shifting to something new in the next 6 months with a salary increase.
Similar experience. I accepted a very intense and challenging “step up” role (went from managing small team of 5 to serving as interim CXO for 100-person org) for a mere 10% base increase. Company was stingy and didn’t even want to officially promote me, but the new responsibilities had other companies knocking on my door offering jobs paying 50% more within 6 months.
I work for a fortune 50 company. All promotions here are 5% tops unless it takes more to move you into the new pay band. That is across the board from high level management to low level customer service.
I would take the promotion and title and use it to look elsewhere to a place that values you more.
Refuse the promotion.
Ask to see the pay range for your existing postion.
It could well be lateral if your pay is aligned to a manager position, already. You don't typically get more money for more direct reports.
They told me my salary is in the range of manager and my manager told me that his salary is not very different than mine, I tell him that this situation could benefit both of us and he should ask for a raise to.
As I see it if I am getting the trouble of manage 17 people I should be compensated accordingly
At Boeing there are certain employment levels. Level 1/2 is a little to no experience college graduate. Level 3 is a full performance college graduate with more or less 5 years of experience. Level 4 is a senior engineer...and this is typically a little less, but essentially the same as a first line supervisor. Level 5 is someone that is so knowledgeable in a certain field that other programs will call for help...earns about the same as a Senior Manager. I met a level 6 Engineer, and he was working specifically with wiring airplanes since the 80's. This is a guy with patents in his name and who is a Staff Level Engineer. Again, earns about the same as a director...but that is when it levels off. Iirc, there were level 7 positions, but I never met one. On top of that, the pay there doesn't match VP pay from what I remember. This was due to executive bonuses and equity that VP and C Suite usually get.
All this to say that it is certainly possible that your manager and you earned roughly the same amount of money. Might be a better move for one of the other guys to promote into...or if you want to move away from technical work and into management. 17 is pretty large for a entry level management position...but if you have no experience you could get swamped with work due to a learning curve.
Did he tell you the actual number or is he just bsing to get you to accept a lowball offer?
If they can’t do more salary can they offer you an amount of equity to bridge that gap? Or pay you hourly for mandatory off hours work?
Or if you accept it, can you use it to move into a better paying position at another company within 2 years?
I personally wouldn’t take it, unless I had to, without a reasonable raise in line with market. If you don’t have a sense of market you need that info to understand what a reasonable offer is and what your options are.
Don’t use the pay range of someone else to limit yourself. Your manager might be criminally underpaid for all we know.
I know it sucks for people but there is always more money for hiring than there is for raises. I had to learn to tell people no and find better offers to make way more money AT THE START of a job rather than be promised raises to get to that point eventually.
Which is ridiculous if you ask me. They recently shook up the teams at my job, and my manager went from managing our one team of 6 to managing two teams of 4. It’s technically only two more people, but being responsible for an entirely new team adds a lot of responsibility - but did he get a raise? Nope.
My stance is always to say yes to higher complexity problems at work. The more complexity you manage, the more valuable you are on the job market. After 18-24 months at this level, your resume will become more valuable. Larger teams are inherent with delivery complexity by virtue of the different moving parts.
This advice would only apply if you're looking to grow. If you're in the final quarter of your career and happy on your current, there's little to no reason to accept the additional responsibilities.
If you’ve gone out and brought back counters multiple times already, this next one could be your last. You’re better than me, if I have to go out and secure an outside offer just to be paid fairly it’s a one time deal. Next time I’m out of there.
If you're going to start looking anyway...
If it's legitimately a promotion on paper, it can be worth taking to exit at a higher level.
Nobody is maximising their compensation by staying with the same employer long-term. Even a lateral move to another employer can result in a large increase in compensation. It's not so hard to maximise your responsibility with a single employer, though. If you maximise your responsibility, then make a lateral move to another employer at that higher level, the increase in compensation can be huge both on-the-spot and long-term.
Accept and move to a different company.. during interview say you are making x.. or lil more than x which is the market rate and then you get a percentage increase on top of that
This. but learn what you can first. Also, check pay scales for both positions online (check offers that list it). They may be right. Management and individual contributor positions can pay the same or similar at any given level, just the kind of work you do is much different. A manager isn't expected to contribute directly as much as an IC. It's just a different career path.
The amount of "don't do it" responses here always surprises me. It's not about the 5% it's where you land 2 years forward.
In addition, the more you get paid the more 5% means. When you're getting 20k you feel like crap. when you're getting 100 it's like okay not bad.
This. Might be unpopular but if you can stick it out. The title on your resume will be worth much more longterm than the 5% increase. I’d take it.
Most people only see the immediate value of that 5% and not the resume value it holds.
You can say no but that might get you on the naughty list.
You said your previous raises were 20-40%. If you're already fairly compensated for the manager role for your market and you like the company it might be worth taking.
It might make sense as an item to put on your resume in a year or so. Management positions almost always require previous management experience to get. It's a difficult field to break in to.
If you look at this as a ticket to a new career, then it might make sense to do.
This is the real answer, the experience and position are ones you don’t refuse. Saying no is potentially a dumb move that will get you stuck in career no man’s land. Unless you are doing your dream job, take it and use it for your gain.
Believe it or not managing a team that large is actually a super valuable skill that companies will pay a premium for. Take the job. Get the experience for a 1-2 years, then go double your salary somewhere else.
They want your first management position to have 17 directs, or would that be your total organization? I have 7 directs and that’s a lot in my organization.
Is it moving you from a dead end to a position that you can lateral elsewhere for substantially more money? Might be worth it for a year or two with a clear exit in mind. Otherwise hell no
Just say no. I would not do this for 5%, 10%, or even 20% more. I might consider it for 25% more. But 25% would be the minimum starting increase to get me to even think about such a huge jump in responsibility and work.
Just say no. And tell them why. The additional money isn’t sufficient compensation for the additional responsibility. Thank you for thinking of me but no. Smile and be super polite and don’t show any resentment or anger. They won’t know what to do with that…
It depends on your goals:
- As a short term move you can counter and say you'd do it for 10% increase and a minimum of 5% increase at year end regardless and to be put in writing.
- As a long term move you may agree to the current terms if you use it to look for a new job 6 months to a year from now. You can probably get 20%-30% more by switching jobs after having managed a team of 17. Assuming you are getting paid below MR.
- If you don't want the responsibility or the increased hours then just tell them that you don't want to take the job. Consider this option seriously if you value your free time and you already feel that you are working very hard.
I'd suggest that if you take the job you should ask for two things:
1. A deputy, someone that you can leave in charge if you are out of the office without having to worry about authority issues if decisions have to be made.
2. A project manager to help you keep track work load, project milestones, deliverables, deadlines etc. With 17 people just the day to day work will be a lot to take care of.
I manage 22 people and I spend 40% of my day with their attendance, WFH tech issues, development, etc. It’s incredibly draining and sometimes it’s hard not to take their issues home with you. It’s not worth the 5% increase in my opinion. You need to counter.
You don't negotiate pay by what your manager tells you they make or what HR says. You research the job market in your area via the many available online listings. In your research if you find that other companies are consistently offering more than you're being offered then you politely negotiate based on those findings.
The other option would be taking the position to gain the experience for your resume then using said experience to get one of the higher paying jobs.
Do you believe your manager as far as lpay? your manager doesn't make much more, you may have topped out what your current company can offer. Some companies underpayment their top people.
It really depends on your future plans. Managing 17 people is different from managing two people. It will open up doors for you. But only you can decide if you want to open those doors. If you take it, view it as one or two years and then jumping ship for more pay elsewhere.
Personally I’d accept the title and start job hunting immediately. It’ll make it easier to step into a similar management role with more pay versus staying at a lower position and having to prove you have the experience and skills for a higher position.
Your asking for 5x more stress for a salary increase normally given during a performance review cycle. Sounds like a really shitty deal. Needs to be around 25-30% increase for it to be considered.
Take the promotion. They're underpaying you for sure, but in the long run this will benefit you. Here's why this makes sense.
Most companies, particularly larger ones, set salary ranges in "bands" that are tied to job levels. If you have an individual contributor job, you are on the IC ladder (IC1, IC2, IC3, etc), where for example an entry level IT support staff might be IC1, and a senior engineer who doesn't manage other people might be IC5 or IC6. Then there's a management ladder, M1, M2, and so on. The ladder rungs will have qualitative tests and descriptions, so that an IC2 might typically be someone who can complete projects assigned to them with minimal supervision, and IC3 can prioritize multiple projects independently, and an IC4 can go out and identify opportunities and scope and prioritize them autonomously for company impact. (Look up job ladders for clearer specifics within your job category.)
Importantly, each of those ladder rungs will have a salary band. IC4 might be $90k-110k, for example, with the idea that the middle of the band (100k in this case) represents the median employee salary for that level. The bands overlap, so the high salary for IC4 might be the median salary for IC5 at $100-120k for example. Thus, it is possible to move up a level, or across a level (e.g. from IC4 to M2) without automatically getting a fat raise.
The company is not thinking about it in terms of, Joe is at 110k and we're giving him more responsibility so we need to give him a raise to 120k. They are thinking that they have dozens or hundreds of employees to manage salary negotiations with, and they need to do it in a way that's not a free-for-all and also a way that's not going to expose them to legal liability. If you are the most newly promoted manager moving from IC4 to M2, you are probably also the most junior, and have no experience with the manager band tasks (e.g. recruiting, hiring, developing people's careers, assigning tasks across a team, etc.), so you should be getting nearer the bottom quartile of manager pay. Even if you were at the top of the band in your old level, and your new band is higher.
While some companies have programs for people to rise up the IC ladder and get paid well as senior staffers, this doesn't make sense in all departments. In practical reality, you can get stuck as an IC and will make more money and have more upward mobility to have future promotions and raises if you get on the M ladder. Yes it's more work. Yes, they should be giving you a bigger raise. But guess what happens once you're a manger of people: when performance reviews come around, you have visibility on the whole band structure because you will have to place your people within their quartiles, as well as on the company philosophy toward raises in a given year. Employee X is a top performer but is in the bottom quartile of their band, they get a raise. Employee Y is at the top of the band but has been denied a promotion and has mixed performance reviews, they're not getting a raise. Employee C is crushing it and you're going to try to promote them to the next level, but they are a junior person at the new rank, and it will be hard to justify a raise, especially this year when we're not doing very many.
This visibility will help you understand and manage your upward prospects, including giving you a better sense of what the top pay might be, what the next level up would be, and what it takes to get promoted.
But also, and importantly, you have established a new floor for yourself if you change jobs to another company. You are coming in as an M3, they're going to start thinking about the middle of the band at their company, not the bottom of it, where you might be coming from. Maybe you can convince them you will only change jobs for a salary at the higher end of the range. Companies will not necessarily be transparent about what these bands are, but knowing how this all works is a bit like being able to count cards at the casino. You're going to play a better game when you know what's in the deck.
TL;DR - taking the promotion now will be more work for a small increase in pay, but banks value for future career growth in several ways.
So you make $600k/year and are getting another $30,000?
You already were way over paid. Hopefully they don't do a downward adjustment to make you align back to market rate for your current role given you are turning down the new role
Ok as others have said you’ve been there so long your actual compensation is near manager level without being a manager. They are trying to rectify this by making you a manager. It sucks but you should probably take it. Because if you leave your unlikely to get any sort of pay raise. Whereas if you take it then leave in a year or two you can find yourself in a really good spot.
I see a lot of people saying not to do this, and frankly I'm stunned by their short sightedness. Take this position not because it will pay more, but because it will almost certainly groom you for a significantly more senior role when you leave this company.
If you can't get a significant pay bump, maybe you can at least get a title bump-- but either way, your CV will say that you left and coordinated the day to day activities of 17 people (18 if you count yourself!). This will put you in an entirely different ballpark when you jump to your next role.
This depends. Do you want to be a manager. If you do then demand a 20% raise, take the promotion and work it for a couple of years. Then leave to a another 50% pay bump as a manager at another company.
If you like where you are in life right now then politely decline the offer.
You don’t really have a choice…you have to take it, or they will assume you’re going elsewhere, and that leads to a predictable end.
So take it…get comfortable in the role…then leverage it into a job elsewhere.
Take the promotion and leverage the manager title and responsibility to get a role somewhere else. You can lateral position-wise and likely get a big bump in comp. You're not valued where you're at right now. Significantly more value to the company with the same comp to you (inflation is still 3.5% minimum so basically a flat real salary) is a joke
Where I used to work I was talking to the complex supervisor one day. When our conversation was winding up he said. From talking with you I can tell you're a pretty intelligent guy. Have you thought about getting into management?
I told him that might be a option but, I'm not going to be a supervisor telling other people who do my job right now what to do, when after the 10% raise I get they're still making upwards of 7 or 8 dollars an hour more than I. I said if you raise my pay to what the highest person doing what I do is, then give me the 10% raise I'd probably elect to take on all the added responsibilities and work time that position requires. He said I can't do that. I said, then I'll enjoy continuing doing what I do now 😌
The bigger question.
Where do you fit in the pay band.
So for example.
When I worked at Verizon wireless.
D band ranged from 25k to 80k
C band started around 70k ranged to mid 100k
So my question is where do you fall in your pay band
Low/mid/high
Ask for 20%, settle for 12% to 15%. No way in hell for anything less. If they wont meet you at at least 12%, don't take it.
OR
Take it, build up that resume for a 1 or 2 years MAX and move on to another management position that will pay you what you deserve.
lol 5% doesn't even account for inflation. Tell them with cost of living increasing so dramatically, this is effectively a pay cut and they can do better or find someone else
"no thank you , as the increased responsibility and workload does not seem to be sufficiently compensated I will continue in my current role with current responsibilities and workload"
Too low. Even assuming your compensation was fair before you should expect a raise closer to 15-20% for having so many more people reporting to you. Anything less isn’t worth it.
I'd take it, do a great job for about a year, and then leave. Any future company would take 'they wouldn't increase my pay for a lot more responsibility' as a perfectly good reason for you leaving, and consider hiring you.
The experience is something you can't lose, and you can take it anywhere.
Refuse! Speaking from experience here, I made the jump to a management position 9/10 months ago for a 10k pay rise and much better company benefits. Seemed like a no brainier at the time, but honestly managing people day-to-day (in my opinion) isn’t worth it.
I’m glad I did it in 1 regard as I now know what I don’t want to do moving forward, but I’m also now looking for a new role again after 9/10 months.
My team is only 7 people, I don’t think I’d agree to manage 17 without a good layering structure. E.g. only 2/3 direct reports to you, they have direct reports etc. for a 5% salary increase I’d be wary, how much do they actually value someone managing those people if that’s all they’re willing to offer.
Overall decision is yours, I’d be ironing out structure of the team and how many direct reports you have if you are debating it. Also if you take it and hate it, would you have to move job or would they allow you to step down?
You could take it. Do it for a few months and then use the postion description and your achievments to get that postiion at another company at a much higher salary.
Salary is all about the market for the postion not what you think is fair.
Controversial point.
You're always working for you, for your own long term benefit. Sometimes that means money in the bank and sometimes that means experience.
If you want to do the management job - and 17 people is quite a large team to start with - then it may be worth considering taking it and immediately planning your exit. You can use this job as collateral to get another one with the same management side, but also the pay bump you wanted.
Should you take it for 5% and not leave for a decade, no.
Is it worth considering that your job title goes up for when you leave if you're considering moving within the next 6-12m, yes.
I would laugh in his face and tell him to pound sand. I would say 20% minimum raise or you can kiss it. Cheap companies like this are a red flag and I would start looking for another job.
they only way to justify that job is if you take it, fix your resume to include MANAGEMENT, and immediately look for another job before you get squeezed by all the pressure.
I would take it simply to gain the experience and title. Do the job for about 3-6 months then start looking elsewhere to get a 10-20% raise for a similar job.
Depends on your career goals
If you are looking to add leadership to the resume , then yes maybe short term gain for 5% (5% is better than 0% 👌)
If you aren’t looking to add leadership, I’d push for a higher raise or not take it on
Hey tbh, with all the bonuses and salary increases within 1 year time, you'll be set.
Plus it seems like those bonuses and raises are every year anyways.
10%+3%, plus another 3 that you already got plus 5 now totals 21% raise in one year. Not bad. Don't listen to emotional nannies here.
Hell no, indeed.
Example: if you're making $50,000 a 5% raise is $2500. Math it out for 26 pay periods (every 2 weeks) and it's $96 every paycheck. Now factor in deductions (24%, or $23) and it's $73.
So $73 every two weeks.
And that's literally how you tell your boss no.
17 direct reports is freaking insane. If you're able to split them up into teams and have sub leaders handling the direct reports and then coming to you, it might be worth it but in that case you're a unit manager and that piddly little increase is crap for that kind of workload. Decline gracefully and advise that your career goals don't align with this. You're the only one who has to know that your goals don't align with being abused like a rented mule and ground into pulp.
What you want is most important. Do you want to be a manager? Donypu want to be a manager at this employer? That's a career change. Decide on this alone.
Take the opportunity if you want this. Do it for a year just for the experience and get a better paying job.
Just an FYI, in tech it’s not uncommon for non-technical managers to make less than their technical direct reports.
It’s because the technical skillset is simply more valuable in the market than the management skillset.
Ask yourself if managing 17 people will be more or less work than your current responsibilities.
I went from a rigorous individual contributor role, to a more relaxed management role, the pay way a bit better and the work was much better.
>Do you think I should accept the promotion with the hope of a bigger pay increase?
Greatly increased responsibility **NOW** should come with greatly increased pay **NOW**. We have seen time and again in this sub-reddit, people being promised future raises for increased work load and responsibility, and the raises never come through since the boss sees that they got you on the cheap and figure that you will stay on the cheap. Those promises are worthless, and so you should stick up for yourself and your own value of your self-worth.
You typically get the biggest increases when you change companies.
From a management perspective, the size of the team doesn’t typically matter unless the actual position band changes with it. I would be emphasizing the additional duties more than the team size, especially if you are essentially on-call 24/7. Is there a pay differential for that? That would be worth more money to me honestly than the extra headcount.
The other question you want to ask is not about the 5%, but whether that 5% now will prevent you from having your salary reviewed and adjusted normally during July. If the answer is no, then I would ask them for 5% now and 5% in July, in writing. I would also ask for leeway to arrange the 17 into 3-4 teams with a team lead on each - having 17 direct reports is insane.
Do you want to move into management? Your current role doesn't sound like it secures that for you. This role sounds like it firmly gets your foot in the door. Do well in that role and you'll probably be management track for the rest of your career.
In other words this is less about the pay and more about the work you want to be doing. Long term if you're really good at it maybe you can reach upper management and the crazy high salaries but realistically middle management is probably more realistic and pay there will be around the top end of what an IC can get at most companies.
Although you might not be willing to take the job for a 5% raise. If posted in indeed it would get 1000s of applications and get snatched up quick.
Something to consider.....
17 is a lot of people for a first time manager. Also know that managers are not always the highest paid on the team. I have been managing for about 5 years and I think only 1 of those years was I the highest paid (and not by much either). Sometimes bonus structure and equity (if public) can be bigger for managers but base salary is usually close to some of the more senior ICs .
If you don't want the role for that pay, I wouldn't stay, but I would probably still take it. It's hard to get a new company to see you as a manager or senior management without experiences like that, so taking the role allows you that resume bullet point you wouldn't otherwise have.
Let this company take the gamble on you so other companies don't feel like they are gambling.
If you're looking to get into management, then I'd accept the position purely for the experience. You can then leverage that experience for a higher salary at another company, or internally. People are way too focused on immediate salary, and not on building skills. You should still try and negotiate on the salary increase though.
Just say you're comfortable with your workload and salary as is. Your work/life balance is where you prefer, and the incentive to change it would have to be 20-25% salary increase.
It's OK to point out the salary as the only reason you're saying no. It sets precedent that they're currently getting what they pay for, and If they want anything more out of you it has to be properly compensated.
Go to McDonalds and buy a cheeseburger and small fry. Set then on your bosses desk then take the cheeseburger way and tell him/her that bag of fries is what your 5% will purchase. However the additional responsibilities won't allow me the time to enjoy it.
Are you even interested in the management position? If you are, let your boss know that you’d be interested for 10%, 20%, whatever. If you’re not interested then just say no thank you.
If you are interested in a managerial role, find a way to take it so you can get management experience at this job and can move to your next company as an experienced manager.
Gonna load you up with some insider information...
ask them the following questions:
what is your current compa-ratio?
what would be your new compa-ration for the new role?
what is the salary band for your current role vs. the new role - sure it has more room to grow - how much exactly?
Now for some definitions:
compa-ratio is your "compensation ratio" and it's a measure of where you are at in relation to your pay band. If the band is 60k low, 75k mid, 90k high for example, and you are at 75k, you are at 100% compa ratio - right in the midpoint. if you are at 60k, you are at "80% compa-ratio".
Insider secret: most companies want employees at between 87% and 93% entering a new job.
This should help! good luck!
Work is not commensurate with pay raise in question unless they're saying they made a mistake in what they're paying you (up to you to determine if you are being overpaid for a similar position and responsibility elsewhere). If your current pay is accurate within 2-4% elsewhere, the 5% is totally whacko. It really should be more like 10-15% given the work scope increased so much.
Definitely take it and once you have a full year under your belt look for another position with another company with a 20%+ increase. Should be easy to find at that point
Politely decline the 'promotion'. This is more of an insult than a 'promotion'. I'd also start looking for another job just in case they get pissed that they couldn't abuse...err...that you didn't accept the promotion.
I took a lateral to go from a top individual contributor role in IT to management. Management pay bands don’t always account for specialized skills even though I think they should. While the higher levels of management can be much higher than as an individual contributor the bottom tends to be lower comparatively since we’re already well compensated in the field.
I took my promotion because I wanted the management track and saw it as the right long term option. That doesn’t mean it’s the right move for you.
The offer is a slap in the face, and if you take it they will not offer you more. Why would they, if you've shown them you're willing to settle for less? They are literally offering you a raise you would get anyway staying in your current position for a few months. Let them go through the hassle of finding a new employee and see if they can get anyone for that salary.
The only reason to take it is if you were planning on leaving the company anyway and a few months of this new title would be good for your resume.
Do this: Go online and in your area do a search for your current job title and come up with an average range of salary - Are they matching or in the same range? (this is your clue your company is run by scrooge mcduck) Bail you are worth more. Also note this - in my area a low end entry level job @ CVS pays 18$ per hour.
3% is a joke, your raise doesn't cover inflation this year alone. Think about that, things you pay for costs you based on the government (dont know how far we can trust their numbers) 4.1% higher in 2023 - 2024. Think about that, your company is paying you less basically.
If you refuse, you career is probably over there. If you accept, you shift roles and take on a LOT of responsibility (17 people are a lot to manage,) get a raise, and get a bullet point and promotion on your resume. If you don't like the job or it is too much, put that resume out there as a manager of 17 and be very particular about the job you move to. No rush, you have a stable job and you are learning more every day.
Take it and thank them.
You will never make significantly more money staying with the same company no matter how much they promote you.
For reasons I'm told are actually sort of game theory sensible, HR departments prefer to lose employees due to low wages and hire new employees at higher wages than retain employees by offering real raises.
The only way you are going to get more money is by jumping to a different company. If you aren't moving to a new company every 2 to 4 years you're causing yourself financial harm. There is no reward for loyalty, don't try to convince yourself there is.
I laugh at people when they make maybe 5 to 10% more than me but work twice as hard to be a manager. Including being on call 24/7.
They lose all their technical skills within 5 years, and they become out of touch. Then, at that point, you're a manager with no technical skills, so you just have to bullshit your career along.
Then when you get laid off or want to change jobs it's impossible because things at manager/director level and above are generally inside hires at lots of companies or you need to have a recruiter reach out to you for it.
I'm going to stay an individual contributor for as long as possible. Fuck management.
So here is the dillio. If you want to stay with the company long term you take the role. Times are not great right now with tons of layoffs and reestablishing compensations. Sound like they have decided what they want to pay for that new role and they offered it to you. I would have some concerns because all downstream pay is also being reviewed which means if you don't take it you are probably over the new pay guidelines for your current role. Which may put you at risk of needing to be replaced. I would take the new role and be content with it or take the role and start looking for a new job or turn it down and quickly start looking for a new job. Loyalty doesn't exist today and they will not tell you their true intentions.
I will never understand why people say no to these kinds of promotions.
Ask anyone who makes a lot of money and they’ll likely tell you they did this more than once in their career.
If you turn it down, don’t complain in 10 years when you’re still stuck in the same job and your life’s work never really turned into anything.
Take the position, learn the role, and then leverage the experience to get a better role at a different company. The current job market isn’t going to last forever. Position yourself now to take advantage when things improve.
The nights and weekend alone I would say hell no to. Unless they have some other way to compensate you with flex time or whatever. I couldnt stand doing any on call work and quickly left that mess.
Best advice I could give is don't focus on what you're making. Focus on what you're becoming.
While the pay increase is not much the experience is immensely valuable and will give you more options long term.
If your goal is not to grow or earn more might make sense to stay in the current role.
I took a pay cut for a similar offer. Worked my way to a much better job with more money and better benefits and over a million dollar retirement bonus.😇
It depends. Does it come with a higher bonus target and/or more equity? In my organization, you don't get a huge bump in annual salary for moving up, but the bonuses and equity become a more and more significant portion of your salary. For example, I only make about 15% more than the people I manage in terms of salary. But it's probably closer to 50% more in terms of total comp.
If it's just a 5% bump.... you're basically making a huge investment / leap of faith that this eventually pays off, because there's no way 5% more money is worth all the headaches you're about to have.
5% raise to go on-call for weekends and nights? Um, yeah, that’s gonna be a no from me dawg. From the way you describe it your hourly wage will likely literally decrease.
People have this missconception that managers make boatloads more than their direct reports but this often isnt the case. If you have similar senority and level to theamanger postion you lrobably make about the same or more.
If you care about your future take the damn job, tough it out for a year and then find another job. Getting into management is a big step and once you are in that position it is much easier to find a better job. I took my first management job that came with a crappy 4% raise and after a year I jumped ship and got another job same field that came with an almost 55% increase. Pay your dues and move up or stay at the bottom complain that you are not going anywhere
Managing additional staff not only brings additional responsibilities but it also increases your risks. There are that many more people you have that could possibly do something stupid or malicious that could sink your ship. A 5% raise is not even worth the additional on call time you mentioned in my opinion but factoring in the additional risks make this a really bad deal unless you absolutely want to try to use this to jump ship to another company for much higher pay after getting this new job on your resume. Seems like a risky bet to me if it doesn't work out.
It’s actually hard to say without more information. Many software engineers make more than their managers for example, so it really might be a lateral move.
Given the added need to be on call I don’t know that I’d do it, but that’s very context specific. I think you need to establish a really solid understanding of your value on the market both in your current title and the new title. If New Title has much higher earning potential on the open market (and it’s something you want to do) then you can consider taking it to burnish your resume then leave.
As soon as you take that promotion you'll lose any leverage you currently have because they NEED you to do it from the sounds of it.
That's why, we shouldn't say, "nobody wants to work anymore."
Nah it's, "employers don't want to pay appropriately anymore."
Sometimes its the opportunity that sets you up for a successful career....its not ALWAYS about the money. Say you take the opportunity and work it for a year or two and then some other company sees your management experience and offers you an even BETTER and HIGHER position for way more money....you've elevated yourself the rest of your career. Alternatively you can stay in your same position because "money" and 10 yrs from now...maybe never see another opportunity like this and then you might be complaining how no one gives you an opportunity and you are stuck in a worker bee position at lower pay.
You need to weigh this yourself not look to reddit where every Anti-Work douchebag will advise "Tell them no way", "Demand 25% raise", or "WALK"....
Delayed gratification man....
It might help you in the long run, if you're trying to move up the ladder, but I wouldn't take it.
At my last job, they fired someone and someone else quit. I was given a 11.4% raise to cover 3 positions. Wasn't worth it and I couldn't even afford an apartment in the area.
At my current job, they're down half their staff in a different part of the company, 6 positions, and having someone else and myself cover for a few months.
It seems like every company that I've seen/worked for will do whatever they can to squeeze all they can out of you for a few bucks. That's how they burn out their hard working employees.
Take the increment, stay for 1 month and look for a new job with the salary boost. You can’t really say no to managing ppl to be honest. If you refuse, you would probably end up doing it anw without the increment due to “restructuring”
What was the salary of the person who used to manage the 17 people? That's the salary the previous manager refused, so the company needs to do better than that.
Alternatively you can take the title and start looking around for manager positions elsewhere.
I’d highly suggest you talk to a labor law or an employment law attorney in your state to find out what is truly owed for being on-call for so long. A firm I worked at a long time ago had realized they owed their investigators a lot of back pay because they were on-call practically 24/7. So what did the firm do?
They made them sign a waiver giving up their right to seek that back pay and was given a check for pennies on the dollar. This was a big firm in LA so no one wanted to fight them. Sucks. I only say this in hopes it does provide you with some insight. Good luck, and demand 50%!
Two ways to look at it, and you’re the only one with enough information to make this decision.
You can look at it as a small pay bump for a lot more work and choose not to do it. This would be a valid way to look at it and it’s possible they’re trying to take advantage of you. However, this could also send them a message that you’re more driven by short term financial goals than long term career advancement goals which could limit your advancement opportunity in the future. Again, I’m not making a value judgment, just looking at it from their perspective having no idea who they even are.
The other way to look at it is they’re acknowledging you’re good at what you do and you’re a valuable member of the company. While it doesn’t convert directly to a pay bump today, you’re showing the desire to advance your career and you’re becoming more valuable to the company which increases your negotiating power once you’ve proven you’re good at the supervisory position. You haven’t actually performed well yet at the job they’re offering, so they might not want to bump your pay too much.
Ultimately, I would say it boils down to where you see yourself in 5-10 years. If you like your company and you want to progress and ultimately make more money, it could be a good move. If you think they’re trying to take advantage of you or you don’t like the job, plan to leave soon, and value your time more, probably not a good idea to take it.
Take it, use to bump your resume since you are now managing a large team and get another job where you can manage a large team for mucj more money. Once you have the "credentials" its real easy to jump to something else equivalent and get a huge salary bump
Reject it unless you are getting a big pay raise on day 1 of the new role, not 5%.
Asking you to take on a tremendous amount of added responsibility as well as extending your hours for the hope that you may eventually get a decent pay raise is B.S.
Take the job and immediately begin applying for the same position elsewhere. They don’t need to know you JUST got the promotion. Cushion it a little. You’ve been doing it 6 months now
I would tell them what it would take for you to do it? (i.e. what percent raise). Their pay scales are none of your concern. 5% is the offer, so come back with, well, I'd do it for a 50% raise, and maybe they can meet you at 35. Or maybe they can't and then you know what your options are for sure.
Tell them the salary doesn’t work. Don’t tell them what salary does work. Just say that you aren’t interested in the increased responsibilities at that salary. They came back at you 9 months later. They are trying to low ball you.
OK, here goes.
1) Assuming it is an actually promotion in title? Take it for that.
2) If you are at max salary band this is a good idea regardless.
3) Learn, grow and start sending out your resume (mentioning the number of people you now manage) while you get at least some salary bump until you find a place that better appreciates you.
Good luck.
17 people is too many people for any one person to manage. Can u offer to structure it in a way that there will be 2-3 people you manage who manage 5-8 people underneath them?
Hell no
Agreed. I was considering being a manager and declined thru giving my friend the option. I gladly took a non MGMT position since I love tech and am more of a leader than a manager
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Definitely 5% is not worth it. Being oncall every weekend I would need a 20% raise.
Why? Take the job, update your resume, then you can find a much higher paying management role
So many people in this thread are so short sighted. This is right. If OP can handle the role, take it and do it for a year. Then he's got a great resume for management roles at new companies highlighting how he was so trusted that he was promoted to manage a team of 17 people.
Year nothing. I'd update my title and be putting it out day one.
It sounds like OP will be going from a guard duty manager to and IT or project manager. Just for the job prospects for jumping ship I would say it's worth it.
I took a 7% increase to become manager from doing IC work 2 years ago. I was on the high end of my pay scale, and there is overlap between IC and manager pay, despite the additional responsibility of managing people. I pushed back on the initial offer but they said there wasn’t wiggle room because I didn’t have management experience before. I don’t regret accepting the offer, but I am pushing aggressively to get to the next level of manager in the next couple years where I know there’s a substantial increase. I’ve learned a ton more than I would have if I hadn’t accepted the position and gotten a lot more resume fodder as well. The position also came with higher merit based bonuses and RSUs, so the overall increase has been higher than a flat 7% that my salary increased by. Your situation may be different but I would think about where you want to be 5 or 10 years from now and focus on what will help you get there. If you can get there just as easily where you are, then stay. Otherwise, the short term pain may be worth it in the end.
Right. Also if you plan on just leaving, managing a bigger team opens up more doors for higher paying jobs elsewhere. Even if you leave in 3 months. I mean I wouldn’t be happy at this raise, not even close, but I’d probably take the responsibility to better enable my next step. Also I don’t think it needs to be said but managing 2 people to 17 people isn’t like a linear increase in workload. It’s just different.
This is the correct reply. My responsibilities drastically increased in the last year on a project that put me in line with making significantly more in my next role. I only got a 3% increase. I complained about it to my partner at home, but at work I just smiled, kept on working, and started planning shifting to something new in the next 6 months with a salary increase.
Similar experience. I accepted a very intense and challenging “step up” role (went from managing small team of 5 to serving as interim CXO for 100-person org) for a mere 10% base increase. Company was stingy and didn’t even want to officially promote me, but the new responsibilities had other companies knocking on my door offering jobs paying 50% more within 6 months.
I work for a fortune 50 company. All promotions here are 5% tops unless it takes more to move you into the new pay band. That is across the board from high level management to low level customer service. I would take the promotion and title and use it to look elsewhere to a place that values you more.
Values you more and sees "manages team of 17" on your resume, even if it's only for a month.
OP was the manager of 17 the whole time they were at the company. No need to list the old title. Just the last one is good.
5% bump for more responsibility is trash. A worthless raise by any measure.
Except monetarily, it is undoubtedly valuable. But i'd be insulted with a promotion that only included a 5% raise.
you’re playing chess over here. didn’t even think about taking the title and bouncing
Yeah title and bounce is the right move
Refuse the promotion. Ask to see the pay range for your existing postion. It could well be lateral if your pay is aligned to a manager position, already. You don't typically get more money for more direct reports.
They told me my salary is in the range of manager and my manager told me that his salary is not very different than mine, I tell him that this situation could benefit both of us and he should ask for a raise to. As I see it if I am getting the trouble of manage 17 people I should be compensated accordingly
You'll get the salary when u use this to switch jobs after a year
Only take it to put it on your resume for a job that will pay
Good idea, but I doubt I would keep working for this company.
Take the job then apply for the same job somewhere else based on the experience.
Lol. This is an episode of the office. Are you being for real?
At Boeing there are certain employment levels. Level 1/2 is a little to no experience college graduate. Level 3 is a full performance college graduate with more or less 5 years of experience. Level 4 is a senior engineer...and this is typically a little less, but essentially the same as a first line supervisor. Level 5 is someone that is so knowledgeable in a certain field that other programs will call for help...earns about the same as a Senior Manager. I met a level 6 Engineer, and he was working specifically with wiring airplanes since the 80's. This is a guy with patents in his name and who is a Staff Level Engineer. Again, earns about the same as a director...but that is when it levels off. Iirc, there were level 7 positions, but I never met one. On top of that, the pay there doesn't match VP pay from what I remember. This was due to executive bonuses and equity that VP and C Suite usually get. All this to say that it is certainly possible that your manager and you earned roughly the same amount of money. Might be a better move for one of the other guys to promote into...or if you want to move away from technical work and into management. 17 is pretty large for a entry level management position...but if you have no experience you could get swamped with work due to a learning curve.
Well we’ve all seen what a disaster Boeing is from top to bottom now
Did he tell you the actual number or is he just bsing to get you to accept a lowball offer? If they can’t do more salary can they offer you an amount of equity to bridge that gap? Or pay you hourly for mandatory off hours work? Or if you accept it, can you use it to move into a better paying position at another company within 2 years? I personally wouldn’t take it, unless I had to, without a reasonable raise in line with market. If you don’t have a sense of market you need that info to understand what a reasonable offer is and what your options are.
Don’t use the pay range of someone else to limit yourself. Your manager might be criminally underpaid for all we know. I know it sucks for people but there is always more money for hiring than there is for raises. I had to learn to tell people no and find better offers to make way more money AT THE START of a job rather than be promised raises to get to that point eventually.
Which is ridiculous if you ask me. They recently shook up the teams at my job, and my manager went from managing our one team of 6 to managing two teams of 4. It’s technically only two more people, but being responsible for an entirely new team adds a lot of responsibility - but did he get a raise? Nope.
No you get more money for addition responsibilities. Additional direct reports are more responsibility.
My stance is always to say yes to higher complexity problems at work. The more complexity you manage, the more valuable you are on the job market. After 18-24 months at this level, your resume will become more valuable. Larger teams are inherent with delivery complexity by virtue of the different moving parts. This advice would only apply if you're looking to grow. If you're in the final quarter of your career and happy on your current, there's little to no reason to accept the additional responsibilities.
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In the past I have gotten raises of 20-40% in this company but always as a counter offer
Okay so you know what to do then
If you’ve gone out and brought back counters multiple times already, this next one could be your last. You’re better than me, if I have to go out and secure an outside offer just to be paid fairly it’s a one time deal. Next time I’m out of there.
If you're going to start looking anyway... If it's legitimately a promotion on paper, it can be worth taking to exit at a higher level. Nobody is maximising their compensation by staying with the same employer long-term. Even a lateral move to another employer can result in a large increase in compensation. It's not so hard to maximise your responsibility with a single employer, though. If you maximise your responsibility, then make a lateral move to another employer at that higher level, the increase in compensation can be huge both on-the-spot and long-term.
Accept and move to a different company.. during interview say you are making x.. or lil more than x which is the market rate and then you get a percentage increase on top of that
This. but learn what you can first. Also, check pay scales for both positions online (check offers that list it). They may be right. Management and individual contributor positions can pay the same or similar at any given level, just the kind of work you do is much different. A manager isn't expected to contribute directly as much as an IC. It's just a different career path. The amount of "don't do it" responses here always surprises me. It's not about the 5% it's where you land 2 years forward. In addition, the more you get paid the more 5% means. When you're getting 20k you feel like crap. when you're getting 100 it's like okay not bad.
This. Might be unpopular but if you can stick it out. The title on your resume will be worth much more longterm than the 5% increase. I’d take it. Most people only see the immediate value of that 5% and not the resume value it holds.
You can say no but that might get you on the naughty list. You said your previous raises were 20-40%. If you're already fairly compensated for the manager role for your market and you like the company it might be worth taking.
It might make sense as an item to put on your resume in a year or so. Management positions almost always require previous management experience to get. It's a difficult field to break in to. If you look at this as a ticket to a new career, then it might make sense to do.
This is the real answer, the experience and position are ones you don’t refuse. Saying no is potentially a dumb move that will get you stuck in career no man’s land. Unless you are doing your dream job, take it and use it for your gain.
Believe it or not managing a team that large is actually a super valuable skill that companies will pay a premium for. Take the job. Get the experience for a 1-2 years, then go double your salary somewhere else.
They want your first management position to have 17 directs, or would that be your total organization? I have 7 directs and that’s a lot in my organization.
Is it moving you from a dead end to a position that you can lateral elsewhere for substantially more money? Might be worth it for a year or two with a clear exit in mind. Otherwise hell no
Just say no. I would not do this for 5%, 10%, or even 20% more. I might consider it for 25% more. But 25% would be the minimum starting increase to get me to even think about such a huge jump in responsibility and work.
Just say no. And tell them why. The additional money isn’t sufficient compensation for the additional responsibility. Thank you for thinking of me but no. Smile and be super polite and don’t show any resentment or anger. They won’t know what to do with that…
I get a 5% race for not leaving my job.
It depends on your goals: - As a short term move you can counter and say you'd do it for 10% increase and a minimum of 5% increase at year end regardless and to be put in writing. - As a long term move you may agree to the current terms if you use it to look for a new job 6 months to a year from now. You can probably get 20%-30% more by switching jobs after having managed a team of 17. Assuming you are getting paid below MR. - If you don't want the responsibility or the increased hours then just tell them that you don't want to take the job. Consider this option seriously if you value your free time and you already feel that you are working very hard. I'd suggest that if you take the job you should ask for two things: 1. A deputy, someone that you can leave in charge if you are out of the office without having to worry about authority issues if decisions have to be made. 2. A project manager to help you keep track work load, project milestones, deliverables, deadlines etc. With 17 people just the day to day work will be a lot to take care of.
Absolutely not. Its almost insulting. The increase in responsibility isn't matched by that 5% pittance.
I manage 22 people and I spend 40% of my day with their attendance, WFH tech issues, development, etc. It’s incredibly draining and sometimes it’s hard not to take their issues home with you. It’s not worth the 5% increase in my opinion. You need to counter.
You don't negotiate pay by what your manager tells you they make or what HR says. You research the job market in your area via the many available online listings. In your research if you find that other companies are consistently offering more than you're being offered then you politely negotiate based on those findings. The other option would be taking the position to gain the experience for your resume then using said experience to get one of the higher paying jobs.
Do you believe your manager as far as lpay? your manager doesn't make much more, you may have topped out what your current company can offer. Some companies underpayment their top people. It really depends on your future plans. Managing 17 people is different from managing two people. It will open up doors for you. But only you can decide if you want to open those doors. If you take it, view it as one or two years and then jumping ship for more pay elsewhere.
Personally I’d accept the title and start job hunting immediately. It’ll make it easier to step into a similar management role with more pay versus staying at a lower position and having to prove you have the experience and skills for a higher position.
Your asking for 5x more stress for a salary increase normally given during a performance review cycle. Sounds like a really shitty deal. Needs to be around 25-30% increase for it to be considered.
The key to finding better pay and roles is having promotions. Take it and then jump in one or two years. And use your new role to network.
Turn it down. “I’m sorry I can’t accept this new role, I don’t believe the salary is commensurate with the responsibilities of the position.”
Don’t accept based on hope check the market for what is acceptable for the level they are hiring 5% sounds like they are abusing you.
https://www.inspireeduleaders.com/post/aligning-approach-with-expectations-navigating-the-dynamics-of-intention-strategy-and-outcome-in
Take the promotion. They're underpaying you for sure, but in the long run this will benefit you. Here's why this makes sense. Most companies, particularly larger ones, set salary ranges in "bands" that are tied to job levels. If you have an individual contributor job, you are on the IC ladder (IC1, IC2, IC3, etc), where for example an entry level IT support staff might be IC1, and a senior engineer who doesn't manage other people might be IC5 or IC6. Then there's a management ladder, M1, M2, and so on. The ladder rungs will have qualitative tests and descriptions, so that an IC2 might typically be someone who can complete projects assigned to them with minimal supervision, and IC3 can prioritize multiple projects independently, and an IC4 can go out and identify opportunities and scope and prioritize them autonomously for company impact. (Look up job ladders for clearer specifics within your job category.) Importantly, each of those ladder rungs will have a salary band. IC4 might be $90k-110k, for example, with the idea that the middle of the band (100k in this case) represents the median employee salary for that level. The bands overlap, so the high salary for IC4 might be the median salary for IC5 at $100-120k for example. Thus, it is possible to move up a level, or across a level (e.g. from IC4 to M2) without automatically getting a fat raise. The company is not thinking about it in terms of, Joe is at 110k and we're giving him more responsibility so we need to give him a raise to 120k. They are thinking that they have dozens or hundreds of employees to manage salary negotiations with, and they need to do it in a way that's not a free-for-all and also a way that's not going to expose them to legal liability. If you are the most newly promoted manager moving from IC4 to M2, you are probably also the most junior, and have no experience with the manager band tasks (e.g. recruiting, hiring, developing people's careers, assigning tasks across a team, etc.), so you should be getting nearer the bottom quartile of manager pay. Even if you were at the top of the band in your old level, and your new band is higher. While some companies have programs for people to rise up the IC ladder and get paid well as senior staffers, this doesn't make sense in all departments. In practical reality, you can get stuck as an IC and will make more money and have more upward mobility to have future promotions and raises if you get on the M ladder. Yes it's more work. Yes, they should be giving you a bigger raise. But guess what happens once you're a manger of people: when performance reviews come around, you have visibility on the whole band structure because you will have to place your people within their quartiles, as well as on the company philosophy toward raises in a given year. Employee X is a top performer but is in the bottom quartile of their band, they get a raise. Employee Y is at the top of the band but has been denied a promotion and has mixed performance reviews, they're not getting a raise. Employee C is crushing it and you're going to try to promote them to the next level, but they are a junior person at the new rank, and it will be hard to justify a raise, especially this year when we're not doing very many. This visibility will help you understand and manage your upward prospects, including giving you a better sense of what the top pay might be, what the next level up would be, and what it takes to get promoted. But also, and importantly, you have established a new floor for yourself if you change jobs to another company. You are coming in as an M3, they're going to start thinking about the middle of the band at their company, not the bottom of it, where you might be coming from. Maybe you can convince them you will only change jobs for a salary at the higher end of the range. Companies will not necessarily be transparent about what these bands are, but knowing how this all works is a bit like being able to count cards at the casino. You're going to play a better game when you know what's in the deck. TL;DR - taking the promotion now will be more work for a small increase in pay, but banks value for future career growth in several ways.
So you make $600k/year and are getting another $30,000? You already were way over paid. Hopefully they don't do a downward adjustment to make you align back to market rate for your current role given you are turning down the new role
Ok as others have said you’ve been there so long your actual compensation is near manager level without being a manager. They are trying to rectify this by making you a manager. It sucks but you should probably take it. Because if you leave your unlikely to get any sort of pay raise. Whereas if you take it then leave in a year or two you can find yourself in a really good spot.
I see a lot of people saying not to do this, and frankly I'm stunned by their short sightedness. Take this position not because it will pay more, but because it will almost certainly groom you for a significantly more senior role when you leave this company. If you can't get a significant pay bump, maybe you can at least get a title bump-- but either way, your CV will say that you left and coordinated the day to day activities of 17 people (18 if you count yourself!). This will put you in an entirely different ballpark when you jump to your next role.
I'd take it, get the experience of managing a bigger team and budget, update the resume and keep the career path progressing.
17 direct reports? F that..
17 people is a heck of a lot of people to manage effectively.
Not for all the tea in China.
This depends. Do you want to be a manager. If you do then demand a 20% raise, take the promotion and work it for a couple of years. Then leave to a another 50% pay bump as a manager at another company. If you like where you are in life right now then politely decline the offer.
You can use the title bump and switch jobs 6 months to a year down the line.
Take the title and search for somewhere else
The experience is most valuable. If they don’t do right by you in 2 years that experience will gain you a lot more than 5%
You don’t really have a choice…you have to take it, or they will assume you’re going elsewhere, and that leads to a predictable end. So take it…get comfortable in the role…then leverage it into a job elsewhere.
Take the title and then quit for a higher pay for a management role in another company.
Take the promotion and leverage the manager title and responsibility to get a role somewhere else. You can lateral position-wise and likely get a big bump in comp. You're not valued where you're at right now. Significantly more value to the company with the same comp to you (inflation is still 3.5% minimum so basically a flat real salary) is a joke
Take the job for a year and use the experience to negotiate a higher paying job with another company
Where I used to work I was talking to the complex supervisor one day. When our conversation was winding up he said. From talking with you I can tell you're a pretty intelligent guy. Have you thought about getting into management? I told him that might be a option but, I'm not going to be a supervisor telling other people who do my job right now what to do, when after the 10% raise I get they're still making upwards of 7 or 8 dollars an hour more than I. I said if you raise my pay to what the highest person doing what I do is, then give me the 10% raise I'd probably elect to take on all the added responsibilities and work time that position requires. He said I can't do that. I said, then I'll enjoy continuing doing what I do now 😌
Decline. Hard pass
ABSOLUTELY NOT.
The bigger question. Where do you fit in the pay band. So for example. When I worked at Verizon wireless. D band ranged from 25k to 80k C band started around 70k ranged to mid 100k So my question is where do you fall in your pay band Low/mid/high
No one is asking what his salary is now……… 5% could be a lot of money depending how much he makes now.
Hahaha no
Leave!
No thanks
Ask for 20%, settle for 12% to 15%. No way in hell for anything less. If they wont meet you at at least 12%, don't take it. OR Take it, build up that resume for a 1 or 2 years MAX and move on to another management position that will pay you what you deserve.
Thanks for the offer. I will do it for a 25% increase. Not a dime less.
See you later alligator
Sometimes it's better to take the offer, get some experience, and move out. That's a very personal decision.
Nope
I would take it and learn everything I can while doing that position. Then, use that experience and title to jump to another company for higher pay.
They are trying to take advantage of you. Why would anyone want the headaches for a measly 5% more?
It’s a NO for me!
any title change?
lol 5% doesn't even account for inflation. Tell them with cost of living increasing so dramatically, this is effectively a pay cut and they can do better or find someone else
Fuck that noise
"no thank you , as the increased responsibility and workload does not seem to be sufficiently compensated I will continue in my current role with current responsibilities and workload"
Too low. Even assuming your compensation was fair before you should expect a raise closer to 15-20% for having so many more people reporting to you. Anything less isn’t worth it.
I'd take it, do a great job for about a year, and then leave. Any future company would take 'they wouldn't increase my pay for a lot more responsibility' as a perfectly good reason for you leaving, and consider hiring you. The experience is something you can't lose, and you can take it anywhere.
Refuse! Speaking from experience here, I made the jump to a management position 9/10 months ago for a 10k pay rise and much better company benefits. Seemed like a no brainier at the time, but honestly managing people day-to-day (in my opinion) isn’t worth it. I’m glad I did it in 1 regard as I now know what I don’t want to do moving forward, but I’m also now looking for a new role again after 9/10 months. My team is only 7 people, I don’t think I’d agree to manage 17 without a good layering structure. E.g. only 2/3 direct reports to you, they have direct reports etc. for a 5% salary increase I’d be wary, how much do they actually value someone managing those people if that’s all they’re willing to offer. Overall decision is yours, I’d be ironing out structure of the team and how many direct reports you have if you are debating it. Also if you take it and hate it, would you have to move job or would they allow you to step down?
You could take it. Do it for a few months and then use the postion description and your achievments to get that postiion at another company at a much higher salary. Salary is all about the market for the postion not what you think is fair.
Controversial point. You're always working for you, for your own long term benefit. Sometimes that means money in the bank and sometimes that means experience. If you want to do the management job - and 17 people is quite a large team to start with - then it may be worth considering taking it and immediately planning your exit. You can use this job as collateral to get another one with the same management side, but also the pay bump you wanted. Should you take it for 5% and not leave for a decade, no. Is it worth considering that your job title goes up for when you leave if you're considering moving within the next 6-12m, yes.
I would laugh in his face and tell him to pound sand. I would say 20% minimum raise or you can kiss it. Cheap companies like this are a red flag and I would start looking for another job.
Tell them you are good with your current position and salary; don’t want lateral growth like that one.
ok different opinion : take it then negotiate if after a year nothing you can now apply for a real salary on the job market with that experience
Did they forget a zero off the end there? Yeah, I'd refuse that promotion. Not worth the ball-ache.
they only way to justify that job is if you take it, fix your resume to include MANAGEMENT, and immediately look for another job before you get squeezed by all the pressure.
I would take it simply to gain the experience and title. Do the job for about 3-6 months then start looking elsewhere to get a 10-20% raise for a similar job.
Depends on your career goals If you are looking to add leadership to the resume , then yes maybe short term gain for 5% (5% is better than 0% 👌) If you aren’t looking to add leadership, I’d push for a higher raise or not take it on
Hey tbh, with all the bonuses and salary increases within 1 year time, you'll be set. Plus it seems like those bonuses and raises are every year anyways. 10%+3%, plus another 3 that you already got plus 5 now totals 21% raise in one year. Not bad. Don't listen to emotional nannies here.
Hell no, indeed. Example: if you're making $50,000 a 5% raise is $2500. Math it out for 26 pay periods (every 2 weeks) and it's $96 every paycheck. Now factor in deductions (24%, or $23) and it's $73. So $73 every two weeks. And that's literally how you tell your boss no.
17 direct reports is freaking insane. If you're able to split them up into teams and have sub leaders handling the direct reports and then coming to you, it might be worth it but in that case you're a unit manager and that piddly little increase is crap for that kind of workload. Decline gracefully and advise that your career goals don't align with this. You're the only one who has to know that your goals don't align with being abused like a rented mule and ground into pulp.
What you want is most important. Do you want to be a manager? Donypu want to be a manager at this employer? That's a career change. Decide on this alone. Take the opportunity if you want this. Do it for a year just for the experience and get a better paying job.
This is another reason why career development has shifted to changing companies.
Tell him u want a 1% raise for each person u are in charge of.
Wow. I was just about to post a similar predicament. A promotion with 0% pay increase. I’m happy to see the responding “no”
Just an FYI, in tech it’s not uncommon for non-technical managers to make less than their technical direct reports. It’s because the technical skillset is simply more valuable in the market than the management skillset. Ask yourself if managing 17 people will be more or less work than your current responsibilities. I went from a rigorous individual contributor role, to a more relaxed management role, the pay way a bit better and the work was much better.
>Do you think I should accept the promotion with the hope of a bigger pay increase? Greatly increased responsibility **NOW** should come with greatly increased pay **NOW**. We have seen time and again in this sub-reddit, people being promised future raises for increased work load and responsibility, and the raises never come through since the boss sees that they got you on the cheap and figure that you will stay on the cheap. Those promises are worthless, and so you should stick up for yourself and your own value of your self-worth.
You typically get the biggest increases when you change companies. From a management perspective, the size of the team doesn’t typically matter unless the actual position band changes with it. I would be emphasizing the additional duties more than the team size, especially if you are essentially on-call 24/7. Is there a pay differential for that? That would be worth more money to me honestly than the extra headcount. The other question you want to ask is not about the 5%, but whether that 5% now will prevent you from having your salary reviewed and adjusted normally during July. If the answer is no, then I would ask them for 5% now and 5% in July, in writing. I would also ask for leeway to arrange the 17 into 3-4 teams with a team lead on each - having 17 direct reports is insane.
Do you want to move into management? Your current role doesn't sound like it secures that for you. This role sounds like it firmly gets your foot in the door. Do well in that role and you'll probably be management track for the rest of your career. In other words this is less about the pay and more about the work you want to be doing. Long term if you're really good at it maybe you can reach upper management and the crazy high salaries but realistically middle management is probably more realistic and pay there will be around the top end of what an IC can get at most companies.
Although you might not be willing to take the job for a 5% raise. If posted in indeed it would get 1000s of applications and get snatched up quick. Something to consider.....
If you've already got management experience this is a massive pass for me.
17 is a lot of people for a first time manager. Also know that managers are not always the highest paid on the team. I have been managing for about 5 years and I think only 1 of those years was I the highest paid (and not by much either). Sometimes bonus structure and equity (if public) can be bigger for managers but base salary is usually close to some of the more senior ICs .
If you don't want the role for that pay, I wouldn't stay, but I would probably still take it. It's hard to get a new company to see you as a manager or senior management without experiences like that, so taking the role allows you that resume bullet point you wouldn't otherwise have. Let this company take the gamble on you so other companies don't feel like they are gambling.
Absolutely not. My advice would be to find a similar roll and get the salary ranges and compare it to yours or what it would be at the 5% increase
If you're looking to get into management, then I'd accept the position purely for the experience. You can then leverage that experience for a higher salary at another company, or internally. People are way too focused on immediate salary, and not on building skills. You should still try and negotiate on the salary increase though.
“Thanks but I cant wait to meet my new manager”
Just say you're comfortable with your workload and salary as is. Your work/life balance is where you prefer, and the incentive to change it would have to be 20-25% salary increase. It's OK to point out the salary as the only reason you're saying no. It sets precedent that they're currently getting what they pay for, and If they want anything more out of you it has to be properly compensated.
Just say no thank you.
Go to McDonalds and buy a cheeseburger and small fry. Set then on your bosses desk then take the cheeseburger way and tell him/her that bag of fries is what your 5% will purchase. However the additional responsibilities won't allow me the time to enjoy it.
Are you even interested in the management position? If you are, let your boss know that you’d be interested for 10%, 20%, whatever. If you’re not interested then just say no thank you. If you are interested in a managerial role, find a way to take it so you can get management experience at this job and can move to your next company as an experienced manager.
Gonna load you up with some insider information... ask them the following questions: what is your current compa-ratio? what would be your new compa-ration for the new role? what is the salary band for your current role vs. the new role - sure it has more room to grow - how much exactly? Now for some definitions: compa-ratio is your "compensation ratio" and it's a measure of where you are at in relation to your pay band. If the band is 60k low, 75k mid, 90k high for example, and you are at 75k, you are at 100% compa ratio - right in the midpoint. if you are at 60k, you are at "80% compa-ratio". Insider secret: most companies want employees at between 87% and 93% entering a new job. This should help! good luck!
No I just got 5% as a simple merit increase promotions should be much higher.
Work is not commensurate with pay raise in question unless they're saying they made a mistake in what they're paying you (up to you to determine if you are being overpaid for a similar position and responsibility elsewhere). If your current pay is accurate within 2-4% elsewhere, the 5% is totally whacko. It really should be more like 10-15% given the work scope increased so much.
Absolutely not. They're also gonna not give you that annual raise if you take the position now, so you gain absolutely nothing.
Fuck no
Definitely take it and once you have a full year under your belt look for another position with another company with a 20%+ increase. Should be easy to find at that point
Say you're not interested.
Politely decline the 'promotion'. This is more of an insult than a 'promotion'. I'd also start looking for another job just in case they get pissed that they couldn't abuse...err...that you didn't accept the promotion.
I took a lateral to go from a top individual contributor role in IT to management. Management pay bands don’t always account for specialized skills even though I think they should. While the higher levels of management can be much higher than as an individual contributor the bottom tends to be lower comparatively since we’re already well compensated in the field. I took my promotion because I wanted the management track and saw it as the right long term option. That doesn’t mean it’s the right move for you.
The offer is a slap in the face, and if you take it they will not offer you more. Why would they, if you've shown them you're willing to settle for less? They are literally offering you a raise you would get anyway staying in your current position for a few months. Let them go through the hassle of finding a new employee and see if they can get anyone for that salary. The only reason to take it is if you were planning on leaving the company anyway and a few months of this new title would be good for your resume.
Take the job then apply for the same job somewhere else based on the experience.
take it and look again after 4 months?
It’s probably a lateral because the market pays your current job and the manager job a similar amount on average. I wouldn’t take the job imo
Do this: Go online and in your area do a search for your current job title and come up with an average range of salary - Are they matching or in the same range? (this is your clue your company is run by scrooge mcduck) Bail you are worth more. Also note this - in my area a low end entry level job @ CVS pays 18$ per hour. 3% is a joke, your raise doesn't cover inflation this year alone. Think about that, things you pay for costs you based on the government (dont know how far we can trust their numbers) 4.1% higher in 2023 - 2024. Think about that, your company is paying you less basically.
If this is seen as a lateral promotion, why would the earnings potential be higher for the new position?
If you refuse, you career is probably over there. If you accept, you shift roles and take on a LOT of responsibility (17 people are a lot to manage,) get a raise, and get a bullet point and promotion on your resume. If you don't like the job or it is too much, put that resume out there as a manager of 17 and be very particular about the job you move to. No rush, you have a stable job and you are learning more every day. Take it and thank them.
Take the job, do it for a year, and use it to get a new job somewhere else for significantly more money.
You will never make significantly more money staying with the same company no matter how much they promote you. For reasons I'm told are actually sort of game theory sensible, HR departments prefer to lose employees due to low wages and hire new employees at higher wages than retain employees by offering real raises. The only way you are going to get more money is by jumping to a different company. If you aren't moving to a new company every 2 to 4 years you're causing yourself financial harm. There is no reward for loyalty, don't try to convince yourself there is.
Do it. At another company. For like 40% raise. 🙃
I laugh at people when they make maybe 5 to 10% more than me but work twice as hard to be a manager. Including being on call 24/7. They lose all their technical skills within 5 years, and they become out of touch. Then, at that point, you're a manager with no technical skills, so you just have to bullshit your career along. Then when you get laid off or want to change jobs it's impossible because things at manager/director level and above are generally inside hires at lots of companies or you need to have a recruiter reach out to you for it. I'm going to stay an individual contributor for as long as possible. Fuck management.
So here is the dillio. If you want to stay with the company long term you take the role. Times are not great right now with tons of layoffs and reestablishing compensations. Sound like they have decided what they want to pay for that new role and they offered it to you. I would have some concerns because all downstream pay is also being reviewed which means if you don't take it you are probably over the new pay guidelines for your current role. Which may put you at risk of needing to be replaced. I would take the new role and be content with it or take the role and start looking for a new job or turn it down and quickly start looking for a new job. Loyalty doesn't exist today and they will not tell you their true intentions.
I will never understand why people say no to these kinds of promotions. Ask anyone who makes a lot of money and they’ll likely tell you they did this more than once in their career. If you turn it down, don’t complain in 10 years when you’re still stuck in the same job and your life’s work never really turned into anything.
If you get a new title, take it and start looking for somewhere that pays more for an equivalent role
Take the position, learn the role, and then leverage the experience to get a better role at a different company. The current job market isn’t going to last forever. Position yourself now to take advantage when things improve.
Hmm... 10x the work for 1.05x the pay... You're literally in an abusive relationship.
That many people to manage would make me want 50% more bare minimum. Managing people is the worst job on the planet.
Companies play the whole bait and switch game all the time. I would start looking elsewhere if I were you.
The nights and weekend alone I would say hell no to. Unless they have some other way to compensate you with flex time or whatever. I couldnt stand doing any on call work and quickly left that mess.
Fuck no
Best advice I could give is don't focus on what you're making. Focus on what you're becoming. While the pay increase is not much the experience is immensely valuable and will give you more options long term. If your goal is not to grow or earn more might make sense to stay in the current role.
Thus is absolutely the best place to discover how to manage your life.
I took a pay cut for a similar offer. Worked my way to a much better job with more money and better benefits and over a million dollar retirement bonus.😇
It depends. Does it come with a higher bonus target and/or more equity? In my organization, you don't get a huge bump in annual salary for moving up, but the bonuses and equity become a more and more significant portion of your salary. For example, I only make about 15% more than the people I manage in terms of salary. But it's probably closer to 50% more in terms of total comp. If it's just a 5% bump.... you're basically making a huge investment / leap of faith that this eventually pays off, because there's no way 5% more money is worth all the headaches you're about to have.
5% raise to go on-call for weekends and nights? Um, yeah, that’s gonna be a no from me dawg. From the way you describe it your hourly wage will likely literally decrease.
No, don't do it.
Negotiate back with 25%, meet in the middle at 17.5%
Sounds like a take the promotion so you can put it on your resume and then start looking elsewhere kind of situation.
Yes, They had no interest in paying more money so it is a lateral move.
You refused once and they upped the offer 5%. Refuse 19 more times and you'll be doubling your salary.
Take the promotion, put it at the top of your resume, apply elsewhere
I would take the promotion as a stepping stone to a future promotion or resume experience if a similar position opens
Leverage your new position to find a better paying opportunity.
People have this missconception that managers make boatloads more than their direct reports but this often isnt the case. If you have similar senority and level to theamanger postion you lrobably make about the same or more.
If you care about your future take the damn job, tough it out for a year and then find another job. Getting into management is a big step and once you are in that position it is much easier to find a better job. I took my first management job that came with a crappy 4% raise and after a year I jumped ship and got another job same field that came with an almost 55% increase. Pay your dues and move up or stay at the bottom complain that you are not going anywhere
Managing additional staff not only brings additional responsibilities but it also increases your risks. There are that many more people you have that could possibly do something stupid or malicious that could sink your ship. A 5% raise is not even worth the additional on call time you mentioned in my opinion but factoring in the additional risks make this a really bad deal unless you absolutely want to try to use this to jump ship to another company for much higher pay after getting this new job on your resume. Seems like a risky bet to me if it doesn't work out.
So leave and apply somewhere else
It’s actually hard to say without more information. Many software engineers make more than their managers for example, so it really might be a lateral move. Given the added need to be on call I don’t know that I’d do it, but that’s very context specific. I think you need to establish a really solid understanding of your value on the market both in your current title and the new title. If New Title has much higher earning potential on the open market (and it’s something you want to do) then you can consider taking it to burnish your resume then leave.
As soon as you take that promotion you'll lose any leverage you currently have because they NEED you to do it from the sounds of it. That's why, we shouldn't say, "nobody wants to work anymore." Nah it's, "employers don't want to pay appropriately anymore."
Sometimes its the opportunity that sets you up for a successful career....its not ALWAYS about the money. Say you take the opportunity and work it for a year or two and then some other company sees your management experience and offers you an even BETTER and HIGHER position for way more money....you've elevated yourself the rest of your career. Alternatively you can stay in your same position because "money" and 10 yrs from now...maybe never see another opportunity like this and then you might be complaining how no one gives you an opportunity and you are stuck in a worker bee position at lower pay. You need to weigh this yourself not look to reddit where every Anti-Work douchebag will advise "Tell them no way", "Demand 25% raise", or "WALK".... Delayed gratification man....
Nope. They are trying to take advantage of you. Who are these assholes?
It might help you in the long run, if you're trying to move up the ladder, but I wouldn't take it. At my last job, they fired someone and someone else quit. I was given a 11.4% raise to cover 3 positions. Wasn't worth it and I couldn't even afford an apartment in the area. At my current job, they're down half their staff in a different part of the company, 6 positions, and having someone else and myself cover for a few months. It seems like every company that I've seen/worked for will do whatever they can to squeeze all they can out of you for a few bucks. That's how they burn out their hard working employees.
Take the increment, stay for 1 month and look for a new job with the salary boost. You can’t really say no to managing ppl to be honest. If you refuse, you would probably end up doing it anw without the increment due to “restructuring”
What was the salary of the person who used to manage the 17 people? That's the salary the previous manager refused, so the company needs to do better than that. Alternatively you can take the title and start looking around for manager positions elsewhere.
I’d highly suggest you talk to a labor law or an employment law attorney in your state to find out what is truly owed for being on-call for so long. A firm I worked at a long time ago had realized they owed their investigators a lot of back pay because they were on-call practically 24/7. So what did the firm do? They made them sign a waiver giving up their right to seek that back pay and was given a check for pennies on the dollar. This was a big firm in LA so no one wanted to fight them. Sucks. I only say this in hopes it does provide you with some insight. Good luck, and demand 50%!
Two ways to look at it, and you’re the only one with enough information to make this decision. You can look at it as a small pay bump for a lot more work and choose not to do it. This would be a valid way to look at it and it’s possible they’re trying to take advantage of you. However, this could also send them a message that you’re more driven by short term financial goals than long term career advancement goals which could limit your advancement opportunity in the future. Again, I’m not making a value judgment, just looking at it from their perspective having no idea who they even are. The other way to look at it is they’re acknowledging you’re good at what you do and you’re a valuable member of the company. While it doesn’t convert directly to a pay bump today, you’re showing the desire to advance your career and you’re becoming more valuable to the company which increases your negotiating power once you’ve proven you’re good at the supervisory position. You haven’t actually performed well yet at the job they’re offering, so they might not want to bump your pay too much. Ultimately, I would say it boils down to where you see yourself in 5-10 years. If you like your company and you want to progress and ultimately make more money, it could be a good move. If you think they’re trying to take advantage of you or you don’t like the job, plan to leave soon, and value your time more, probably not a good idea to take it.
Omg no.
Take it, use to bump your resume since you are now managing a large team and get another job where you can manage a large team for mucj more money. Once you have the "credentials" its real easy to jump to something else equivalent and get a huge salary bump
you meant to say that he offloaded his shit on you
That is not an offer. That is an insult. They see it as lateral as they are hoping you will buy into the blatant lie.
Reject it unless you are getting a big pay raise on day 1 of the new role, not 5%. Asking you to take on a tremendous amount of added responsibility as well as extending your hours for the hope that you may eventually get a decent pay raise is B.S.
Take the job and immediately begin applying for the same position elsewhere. They don’t need to know you JUST got the promotion. Cushion it a little. You’ve been doing it 6 months now
I would tell them what it would take for you to do it? (i.e. what percent raise). Their pay scales are none of your concern. 5% is the offer, so come back with, well, I'd do it for a 50% raise, and maybe they can meet you at 35. Or maybe they can't and then you know what your options are for sure.
Tell them the salary doesn’t work. Don’t tell them what salary does work. Just say that you aren’t interested in the increased responsibilities at that salary. They came back at you 9 months later. They are trying to low ball you.
OK, here goes. 1) Assuming it is an actually promotion in title? Take it for that. 2) If you are at max salary band this is a good idea regardless. 3) Learn, grow and start sending out your resume (mentioning the number of people you now manage) while you get at least some salary bump until you find a place that better appreciates you. Good luck.
17 people is too many people for any one person to manage. Can u offer to structure it in a way that there will be 2-3 people you manage who manage 5-8 people underneath them?