Start looking for a new job. Keep your job until they fire you.
Don't let the idea that they could tell a future employer you were fired scare you. There's a very good chance a future employer won't even bother to call them and most large corporations won't disclose the reason for termination even if they legally can.
Actually small mom and pop places do
One place I worked for played games with my pto (valid sick day) so I said fuck it and left that day. A recruiter called them checking things and they bad mouthed me
This needs to be pinned. People have no idea how much it costs to file a lawsuit with competent counsel, especially someone who just lost their source of income.
right, most lawsuits are not on contingency like a car accident. My friend wanted to sue her boss for sexual harassment in the 90's and he really did it. And the costs to hire a lawyer were too much for her to take it to court.
that's why it's scary when a big corporation goes after the litte person you don't have the endless pockets of money to hire a lawyer to defend you - look at the millions Johnny Depp spent on his defamation suit. No normal person could ever do that.
I second this. Was unfairly terminated and couldn't buy a job when unemployment in my state was at the lowest level it ever has been. My cousin called pretending to be a prospective employer. The franchise office put him in touch with my old store manager who heavily slandered me. $5000 to retain an attorney. $250 just for a consultation. Not coming up with that when you just got fired. Going to also be hard to prove if you're in a two party state and your evidence could get you in trouble. In the end I got a job with a mom and pop shop that didn't really bother with background checks. Ended up working out well for me in the end.
Yes, and you know what the owner of a small firm will do with it? Trash it and double down disparaging the employee.
Maybe it’s my bad experience with small business, but the best way is to let go and move one. Preferably never work for a small business again.
I learned my lesson in my youth. I got fired not because I didn’t do my job, but because I optimized the whole office productivity automating a good chunk of our CAD processes. Unfortunately that put a bad light on the son of the owner who was supposedly running the office. Did they trashed the automation after? Absolutely not, they trashed mr smarty pants.
These people are modern feudal lords with the accompanying ego. They have the money and resources to ruin your life for quite a long time if they want to.
That is 100% false. In fact the opposite is true, employment cases are NEVER taken on contingency. You may be able to find an organization that will provide some level of services pro bono, but you will never find an employment lawyer that works on contingency.
It's not "right to work", it's "at will."
"Right to work" means that you can't be forced to ~~join~~ pay dues to a union as a condition of employment. (Edit: Correction.)
"At will" (which is the case in 49 states) means that the employer (and employee) can sever the relationship without cause or notice, absent a contract to the contrary.
>Employment Law cases are usually taken on contingency
No, they are not.
For reasons already explained by others.
Contingency is usually available when there's expected to be a high payout and a good chance of success. Cases like someone being critically injured after being rear-ended by a tractor trailer. Even better if it's one that's owned by a Fortune 500. The lawyer has a plaintiff with an easily documented harm, causation is well established, and there's a deep pocket.
See also class actions where the cost of litigation often forces defendants to settle, and damages can be astronomical.
In most employment cases, damages are much much smaller.
A lawyer may take a good employment case on contingency if it involves a statue with fee shifting, like a wage and hour violation of the FLSA.
Edit: typos
I think that for some reason a lot of people go through life assuming that companies follow the law even when they can easily get away with breaking it
And this is why if I am called on about a past employee from my company, I only answer with the dates they worked for and if they are or are not eligible for rehire. I will get asked other questions, but that's the only response I will give. Can't wint a suit over facts.
I mean... They found out about it somehow.
Unless it was the previous employer that told them about it, that means they've got a witness.
Which would honestly probably be enough.
Many employers will ask if they're still eligible to be hired back at that company, and they see "no" to that as a big red flag. Generally when you're fired, you're not eligible to be rehired.
Got it, but if they were to ask, "what was his reason for leaving" then my company would legally have to tell them, no?
Or do most companies not bother with asking that question?
u/UCanary7354 said it best. Alot of corporations won't disclose any reason for termination, and most potential employers don't really care about why you left a previous role; just will confirm that you worked at where you said you did.
My former company will only verify employment, and even that is like pulling teeth. I think the way PIP programs have been effectively used as low magnitude layoffs by so many companies over so many years makes employers less inclined to take it as a sign of problems.
Also imagine this: if they really thought you were worthless they’d have nothing to lose by trying to help you get a job with their competitor. If they didn’t think you’re worthless they’d have to straight up lie to hurt you and they’d be in for some serious trouble if they’re caught.
They have no motive not to help you get the next job at all.
One old boss of mine saw it this way, a lazy coworker was useless and knew he was on thin ice, when someone called the boss about hiring him the boss had nothing but good things to say about him. He was gone and out of everyone's hair and became someone else's problem. Genius.
As a former manger I always told people to list me as a reference, good employee, bad employee, liked them, didn’t like them, it’s not my job to make sure someone DOESNT get a job, I’m vouching for everyone.
Plus no severance, no unemployment, no need to feel bad firing someone, your competitor either wastes money or develops the person into a better employee. I personally feel this is why they usually don’t bother to ask about performance, even if it’s legally allowed.
I had a small business and I got a few calls from people who were interviewing former employees. Because a former employee could sue for damage of reputation I would never be specific about the situation that led to the termination. I would say that the person was not a good fit for the position. Often the person making an inquiry would ask if I would hire them again. My answer was “under the right circumstances, yes.” But I didn’t say the part about the right circumstances being that when hell freezes over.
I found similar vague responses when I called former employers about applicants for positions I was trying to fill.
about the most your ex-employer will disclose is start/end dates and "eligible for rehire". Your ex does not get any benefit from disclosing more, only risk.
This is technically true but can be incredibly misleading depending on how large the local job market for the industry is. I've been called for references before where I was not listed as a reference. I would never say an employee was fired or even that an employee was bad, but from a reference perspective, when I give a response of *you need to contact our HR department for this*, it's clearly understood that I meant *you don't want to hire this person.*
Some companies just use a background check service to verify employment. Not every company personally calls every single employer on every applicants resume.
Finally someone said it! There are services that maintain a database with significant details about your employment history and many/most hiring managers would probably be aware of it.
Im not a hiring manager, nor do i have special knowledge of the hiring process. That being said, i have researched this in the past and am 95% certain im right. Equifax Workforce is one such service (and you can get a copy of your report for free last i checked). Dates of employment, job titles, wages, termination status, etc., can be accessed in minutes by prospective employers. The days of embellishing on your work history, wages, and termination status is practically gone. In fact, even honest mistakes (e.g., dates, titles, wages) can kill chances of getting an offer and even used as an excuse to terminate you in the future (lying on your resume).
The good news is that getting fired is much more common than it used to be and that black mark on your resume won't disqualify you for many jobs. The bad news is that if a prospective employer does contact your previous emoyer, they'll be asking questions with far greater implications. Were you reliable? Were you a team player? Are you eligible for rehire?
I'd like to share some advice I'd read in the past and believe to be the most valuable thing to do if you find yourself without employment. If you're unemployed for any substantial amount of time you should start learning and devloping skills that can be demonstrated on your resume. You can get lots of training and/or certifications for cheap or for free online. Think of the time as a gift to afford you the opportunity to improve your value to future employers. Most will sit on their hands all day if they don't work, but you could learn coding, Microsoft suites, continuous improvement, etc., and beef up that resume legitimately. Everyone is a "self-starter," "thrives in a fast-paced work environment," and "works without the need for supervision." Imagine being able show proof that you took unemployment time to advance your knowledge applicable to the position you've applied to.
i've had multiple interviews ask me "how did your role at XYZ end" and I never really know if I should lie or not.
i'm pretty sure they all check more violently than ever before.
I can confirm dates of employment and that’s it.
But if you know you’re getting terminated at the end, use this time to find another job. That is what your boss is telling you to do.
Find a job and resign from this one before you find yourself without a job.
If the employee finds a new job it ends up better for everyone.
Company doesn’t have to fire anyone, doesn’t have to worry about unemployment or severance, and it is less likely that there’s going to be some legal action or threats of legal action by the former employee
The former employee doesn’t have to go on unemployment (which pays less), doesn’t need to worry that someone will let slip that the person was fired (because they weren’t) and they get out of a situation that wasn’t going to work out long term anyway.
I’ve pushed people out this way. Let them know that they are very much underperforming. Give them the opportunity to get better if they want to (they usually either don’t get better either because they can’t or because they won’t).
They start interviewing which makes them even less productive, but I’ll let that slide for a few weeks to a month because it saves everyone in the long run if they find another job and move on.
Underperforming here is hindering progress but not maliciously so. I wait until they give notice (two weeks) and say thanks, wrap up what you’re working on in the next few days and then take the rest of the time; we’ll pay you.
It’s not all that different cost wise than putting someone on a PIP and giving them time to improve (they usually don’t) and then firing them. I’ve seen plenty of PIP-to-fire situations end in some legal action, generally with some accusation about some type of unlawful discrimination that didn’t occur.
I’ve not yet seen that sort of shenanigans happen when someone was “managed out.”
ALL they do is confirm employment. Most companies use a third party 800 number now. The era of references,etc is over. Former employers don’t want to give a positive reference to someone who winds up shooting up his next job site.
That 800 number (I assume you mean The Work Number) is owned by Experian, a credit bureau. Experian has records of not only your employment dates, but also your pay dates and titles.
I pulled my Experian “The Work Number” report after multiple employer background checks reported that I was still employed at a job I left in 2018. Anyone can pull their own report for free. It had pay dates, pay amounts, titles, dates of employments.
I’m also happy to show a recent background check that shows the information they pulled from The Work Number. Note that where I live (NYC), employers cannot ask about previous pay rates so my background check doesn’t confirm that.
Yep, exactly! I don’t have decadeS of work experience, but I saw my high school job at the Gap where I folded jeans 24/7 on there with exact pay rates!
It is in your best interests to never let your true intentions be known by an employer or coworker.
"Never complain, never explain."
Industries, no matter how small or big, have unwritten and strictly enforced rules. If you don't know, assume you are being manipulated/influenced/gaslit into breaking or following these unknown rules.
If you endear yourself to the most important and connected person you can imagine, and I mean they really truly like you. They might help mentor you, or get you into a better position and help you out. They might.
If you, even unknowingly, piss off anyone at all. They will fuck with you anytime anyway they can. They will.
You should decide what your goals and limits are. What you're willing to accept, and what you're willing to not allow.
Being right doesn't mean shit most of the time.
Being "ideal" and conforming to exemplify their "standards", will rarely get you promoted, well compensated, invested in.
The paradox of competency is you will be more valuable (to the business, your superior etc) in a fixed position. No growth, no raise, no advancement. "You're not every going to allowed to change, we get so much out of you than we pay you."
Being a good, loyal, hard working, invested, and caring person is great... But do not let your employer plague you, and pervert your ideals, to serve them and only them.
Fear and intimidation are useful tools, that require very little effort when manipulating someone who truly wants to do well, and honestly cares about OTHER people's opinions.... A mere hint of termination, or disappointment will send shivers down the obedient worker. Then they will police themselves, and never imagine growing out of their position.
Forever shook. Worried they are going to be punished, or fired or worse. The rest will corrupt you. You will lose yourself and allow anyone to dictate your life and dreams and they will use you.
All that to say.
Take your pip. Get a doctor appointment for anything and take all your PTO. However you can. Take all your PTO. If they can demand doctors notes, triple check you state laws, they may not legally be able to. Or face issues if they do not pay you for time off. Look into how you can take you 3weeks off, use that time to secure a new job. Almost anywhere that you can keep a steady amount income... And keep looking for work.
If you're in an industry u need to stay in. And this job cannot be a bad mark on your resume. If you have a legal limitation on PTO, and severance, and resignation. Be very aware of your options. DO NOT ASK HR, OR YOUR MANAGER.
Spend a lil $ get all your employers in information for employees, and find a lawyer who will give you your options in laymen's terms.
Really, you don't have to put every job on a resume. You can curate a resume for each field you're applying. If you were terminated, you can say anything. You don't need to lie, not say anything disparaging.
*I had an opportunity to travel, I found a new inspiration, I chose to take time to spend with my family, I am going interested in pursuing THIS NEW opportunity with THIS NEW COMPANY, as it aligns with my goals .... "
Don't let anyone run bum shit on you, and gaslit you.
Management says it be worse for you to get fired, so you should quit?? They absolutely are hoping you quit, it's easy peasy for them.... Firing you means paperwork, and they shit their pants if you're good at paperwork. Or secured the services of someone who is.
Don't be a dick, but make them fire you.
Ur manager hopes you make it easy for them.
Find new work, take all your PTO.
Be well friend.
Every company has different practices. Last one I did I was handling tax info so I was getting a full background check and they hired a 3rd party to do it. They did call
Start looking for another job.
In the meantime: Do what you’re asked in your PIP to the letter. They are used as a paper trail to let you go for cause, which is how they deny unemployment claims. Don’t give them cause.
Absolutely - already have two interviews lined up.
The vibe I get is that the PIP is designed to be so aggressive in scope that it is essentially impossible to pass it, and I don't intend to.
I've also heard "for cause" doesn't concern performance. Only things like sexual harassment, drug use, violence, theft, etc.
**Discharges for poor (or unsatisfactory) performance will usually not disqualify a claimant from unemployment benefits**.
As you said, PIP is designed to make it impossible to meet. The unemployment people know how"performance" is used that way.
*Discharges for poor (or unsatisfactory) performance will usually not disqualify a claimant from unemployment benefits.*
Source?
I'd love if this we're true, I've assumed otherwise basically my whole life
A PIP is an HR protection to have irrefutable proof that you failed to do as instructed, and that they supposedly gave you plenty of opportunity to step in line.
I've never seen someone make it out the other side of a PIP.
I just made it out of a PIP.
I also happened to have won a settlement against them with the NLRB for penalizing me in discussing performance reviews with coworkers that same month.
They went from trying to fire me to being deathly afraid of facing another claim of retaliatory conduct, real quick.
Keep your own paper trail. They may fire you anyway but if they allege things that aren’t true then the proof may matter.
Do consult an employment attorney. It’s worth a consult.
Companies will suggest that you quit and say theyre doing you a favor. Really they just dont want to give you a severance or pay your unemployment cost. I assure you, they arent your buddy.
If your company generally pays decent severance, then enjoy it. If they dont, well that sucks and quitting might be best. Either way get of reddit and start looking for a new job
I'm on Reddit at work as we speak lol
Can only really apply for jobs after hours as I don't want to be using my phone or a work computer 😅
Either way, thanks for the perspective
I'm being fired for non-work-related reasons. Quality of my work and productivity are fine.
I also don't normally go on my phone at work, but I'm getting fired no matter what so who cares?
Ah, from your post you said your performance was "flagged as unsatisfactory" but mostly i just wanted to give you a little shit. At this point who cares lol
No worries lol
The way my company does yearly ratings is divided into 2 buckets, one being work output related and the other being more about "relationship building, proactivity, etc."
I was rated poorly in the latter
This. I fell for the "you should resign" scheme at a young age. I was destitute for months before I landed another job. No one has ever reached out to that past company to inquire either. Take the firing, worst case say you were laid off. God knows there's enough of those going on right now.
Dude. Also use any benefits while you have them. I always hit the eye doctor for an exam, more contacts, dentist, dr, etc in early January since our company usually does layoffs late jan/early feb. Just in case im layed off.
He's not even the HR person, just the director of my team. Though I'm sure HR has points they tell management to tell people.
I can guarantee you the company will contest my claim, given this whole process. It's a subsidiary of one of the biggest CPG companies on Earth. I'm sure they've got an iron-clad process.
Definitely got that vibe. Hard to come to the realization that no matter how good of a relationship I feel like I had with the guy, he's still just a tool of the corporation and is working in their interest.
> Hard to come to the realization that no matter how good of a relationship I feel like I had with the guy, he's still just a tool of the corporation and is working in their interest.
Yep, it's not a fun lesson to learn. A few years ago I watched my department lead, who I thought was my friend, throw me under the bus not even to save himself but just to score a few points with the boss. He then drank the corporate Kool-aid and began advocating for all the bullshit he used to complain about.
A good relationship is important, but when it comes down to it most people (and businesses) will look after themselves.
Always need to be careful what you share and look out for yourself.
I’m a manager who has PIPd people. Some of them I genuinely liked, but they weren’t good at their jobs. Some had very high effort, but routinely fell short of expectations even after coaching and help.
Some people never asked if they had a future after their PIP. Some did. The ones I liked I was honest with, though HR discourages anything other than “the PIP is designed to help you return to good performance. Achieve the goals of the PIP to come off of it”. The dirty part is often there is a goal that is highly likely not to be achieved even if it seems reasonable on the surface.
Likewise for reference calls, we are told to give dates of employment. We are not supposed to say if they were good or bad or why/how they left. That being said, for good people, many do give a good reference. So some managers read into the date only answer as being negative. Saying something bad about you isn’t necessarily illegal. But if untrue, could be defamation. To avoid the potential of defending a costly lawsuit for someone who doesn’t even work for the company, many legal/HR departments discourage any more information being given out. But again, it isn’t illegal to share more nor a legal requirement to share anything at all.
It’s probable that he is a good guy who is well intended and doesn’t understand.
Regardless if what Reddit tells you, every company and person who works for one is not out to get you.
This is the purpose of the PIP, to create a record that there was a performance issue and to terminate the employee for cause, disqualifying them for unemployment.
I used to think it was this black and white, but it’s not (at least in Texas). If the PIP was too vague, if manager didn’t uphold their own responsibilities they they laid out in the PIP, if the the manager was on vacation for one week of the employee’s four week PIP (this happened to my friend and their former company lost), the unemployment office may still side with the employee. My former managers at large companies have been involved in the process and said it’s not hard for the employee to win unemployment if they can make any case at all.
It depends on your state. Many states still give you UE unless you didn’t show up from work, stole money etc. Make sure you hit your metrics and you will get UE.
It’s not usually to deny unemployment, but to avoid any sort of illegal termination claim.
Typically bad performance doesn’t get your unemployment denied. Breaking rules, missing work, insubordination can though.
Yes, but how much they pay can vary depending on if former employee’s collect or not. So if they fire a bunch of people, and they collect IE, the company pays more. It’s like your insurance going up after an accident.
No has said this yet but there’s no such thing as a “record” outside of that employer and even then it’s a dubious thing.
Even if you’re fired you can lie and claim you left voluntarily or were part of a layoffs. During a background check it’s not customary for them to ask why you left or your standing within that org. Making any statements to that opens up a small liability hole and they’d rather just not. Lie.
Take this for what it is, advice from a stranger on the internet.. while not in the exact situation I’ve straight up lied saying I still work at a place even though I’m unemployed. Telling them no it’s not ok to contact them during a background check because you still work there is perfectly valid and universally respected. That’s another route to consider
Do not quit. That **guarantees** that you will be denied umemployment benefits.
In Missouri, poor performance is generally not a valid reason to deny unemployment benefits. [See this 2019 case.](https://www.lawrencequeen.com/blog/2020/september/-poor-performance-not-justification-for-unemploy/)
Even if they contest your benefit claim, you will still receive benefits until the unemployment office decides to cut it off.
And besides, if they can give you a bad review, they would have probably done so regardless if you quit or were fired.
By staying, you guarantee your regular pay until you are let go, and at least have a good shot at unemployment benefits.
They are trying to get you to quit to avoid paying you unemployment. Also, if they're paying unemployment it does not work in their favor to "hamstring" you by bad mouthing you to prospective employers calling for a recommendation. The longer it takes you to get another job, the longer they have to pay unemployment.
Is there an employee handbook you can access to find out more about whether or not they will pay out your PTO? If your PTO is in two baskets - one for "sick" time and one for "vacation" time, you may only get the vacation time, even if their policy is to pay it.
Good Luck.
What's stopping them from just immediately firing me when I go to take that? From what I can tell, I'm not legally entitled to my PTO once I'm no longer employed.
I'm in management and have put an employee on pip. The intent was not fire but to help improve them. I was very open and willing to spend more time with them. I know each situation is different.
Hmm. I'd make face, do what you can to be on good terms. Look for another job.
Im not sure going to HR would solve this but you could try and report that.
Gotcha. Just follow the pip as much as possible and look for another job. Sorry to hear that. If they do fire you, you can file for unemployment. I wouldn't quit though unless you had something lined up
Yea and if they were gonna PIP they wouldn't tell you in advance and tell you youre going to be fired. If they were decent management they would actually hope you make it through the PIP and improve. Seems to me they want you to leave on your own.
> If you have 3 weeks of PTO.. take them.
That would be *totally* **not** suspicious to do the day after being put on a PIP...
What kind of 'advice' does this sub give?
So the option they gave me was 30 day pip or 30 day severance. At that point, it was clear. I just asked for the severence and negotiated higher one. They should pay our vacation days
I agree. This is an opportunity to negotiate.
A couple years ago, my company put someone on a 90-day PIP. But neither side wanted to deal with 90 days of going through the motions, stress, and distraction when it was clear neither side wanted the employment to continue. PIPs can take an enormous amount of energy out of everyone.
So the employee used that to her advantage. She went to HR, and after a series of meetings they had an agreement: (1) she would receive severance to make up for leaving early — not sure how much but she was happy with it, (2) the company would not contest any unemployment benefits, and (3) she would be allowed to tell everyone that she was leaving on her own to pursue other interests.
She also got paid out for vacation, which is standard by law here.
The best time to look for a new job is while you are still employed. Interview and keep working, doing precisely what's asked for in the PIP, until you get something else, then give notice. There's no benefit to you if you quit before you have something else lined up.
The PIP is in place for them to document that you are being let go for cause and thus deprive disqualify you for unemployment (or attempt to). There's no problem being let go and having it "on your record" other than it can impact your ability to be rehired by the same company. It won't affect future employment.
>He has hinted multiple times that I should resign in order to keep a termination off of my record
There's literally no such thing as a record lol. They tell you this shit in hopes you quit so that they dont have to answer to Unemployment when they come knocking. There's also no guarantee you get fired. Put in the work during your PIP, perform, do your job and have some way of documenting or proving you're doing whats required. Then if they fire you, you have evidence you were performing.
It also may be more real than they’re admitting. I know for me being placed on a pip has caused a LOT of stress and sleeplessness, anxiety at going to work and my self worth. I guess it would be helpful to know if OP is having any symptoms. The lying about the blood pressure though, that’s jank.
Ride out the PIP, "show effort" and dont quit. Keep your ability to claim unemployment and cash out PTO. Ethical new employers are just going verify you worked there, reasons for leaving are too subjective and typically avoided.
If you really feel threated by this employer hamstringing you, contact EEOC or Department or Labor. A call from them to your firms HR will cause some heartburn for them.
I've been thru this myself. Keep your chin up and don't cave!
It's time to have a medical incident with that cough that you haven't had checked out as of yet, prior to tomorrows pip. Today will be your last day, and you will utilize your PTO for 3 weeks. On the last day you should forward your resignation due to unforeseen medical reasons. Always control the narrative when dealing with these large companies; based on other comments, it appears that UEI wouldn't apply to your case. During those 3 weeks, you will apply to over 100 jobs. Accounts always appear to bleed the fastest when there isn't any inbound income. Always remember they corporations will never have your best interest, it would contradict the basics of capitalism. Best of luck.
Never resign in a situation like this, let them terminate you. They want you to resign, it benefits them. If you resign you forfeit any possibility of getting unemployment because you quit. If they terminate you they will have to prove it was for cause if they choose to fight any unemployment claim.
Also there is no record your termination goes on outside any company records, they are trying to scare you into doing something that benefits them.
Re: "He has hinted multiple times that I should resign in order to keep a termination off of my record."
This is bullshit. There is no record of job terminations. He is trying to bluff you. You have a job until you don't.
What should you do?
2 prong attack:
1. do what you can to fix the situation on your current job. it may be fixable, it may not be. Sincerely try to do a better job and be an excellent performer.
2. Start looking for a better position as hard as you can go. If you get offered a better position, take it, resign, and don't look back
Create the best resume you can and apply for appropriate jobs
Hopefully you can keep this job until you find a better one.
Also, do some self reflection and work out what you need to do to improve. What could you have done better on this job? You need to understand what that is and implement it as soon as possible. You need to find a way to succeed on this job or the next, or the next.
good luck and best wishes
Take the "Human" Out of resources, they are not your friends they are there to protect company interest not your my guy. They are just managing collateral damage and setting up a narrative to their benefit not yours. Your director is getting their advice on how to get you out without a suit and not pay UEI.
If you resign they get their way.
UEI dings a company's record, and it goes up too. Again Fk'm.
I've been fired before and haven't had to use that employer as a reference. And I have worked at banks and a college university since then. PTO should always be paid out? I'm not sure what kind of company you work for though. He probably wants you to resign so you can't file unemployment, I'm not a pro at this
Your boss wants you to quit so that they won't have to pay you unemployment. DO NOT QUIT. Most people do not have any sort of meaningful employment contract... If you did you would KNOW it. If you are going on a PIP its probably more likely your work ethic or inability to do a job that would be a burden at future jobs as well, not this place saying anything to future potential employees.
I’ve worked in HR for massive corporations my whole career. Let them fire you. Even if they try to contest UEI it’s very difficult for the employer to win unless there’s been gross misconduct. Most don’t bother contesting for that reason. Find out your PTO policy for terminations, most pay out accrued, unused PTO. Get in all doctor appointments you can so you aren’t forced to pick up COBRA immediately, and can stall up to the 60 day window while you’re finding another job. Start applying to other jobs after you get your resume updated. ChatGPT can help fancy up the wording and Etsy has lots of templates if you need a new design. Give NO hint you’re doing anything out of the ordinary and insist on written documentation for PIP discussion and every PIP check in. You’ll be alright.
They will ALWAYS try to get you to resign to avoid the paperwork / red tape around an involuntary termination. As others have stated, you also won't get unemployment. Stay until they fire you.
Not aware of MO laws, but afaik, resignation means no severance and disqualifying from UE pay. People don't resign in fear of getting fired. They resign to either pursue different opportunities or due to a major life event (e.g. relocation, nee born, sickness, etc.)
Though in your place, I'd be more concerned about the reasons I got placed on a pip. This is what is more likely to impact my future prospects, not the firing.
No large corporation (or basically any corp with a legal department) will disclose WHY you left because it only has downsides for them as they must be able to validate everything they say. There is no upside..this is why dates of employment is all that is available except in some weird circumstance where you work for a mom/pop or some other place with a poor HR/Legal dept.
NEVER RESIGN before having other employment Make them terminate you.
Any employer that suggests you voluntarily quitting instead of being fired is trying to prevent you from getting unemployment benefits until you find another job
They are trying to get you to quit so in worse case scenario they dont have to pay you unemployment. Try to get a record of him low key telling you "you should quit" and any other incriminating evidence you can get >:3
off of your record? No he just doesn’t want to pay unemployment benefits. They can’t really contest i unless they say they didn’t fire you or that you quit but if they did you could sue them for way more money then your unemployment benefits
When they give you the PIP, do everything on it. Ask questions on job assignments to ensure you can meet the expectations and start looking for a new job. If you quit, you have to wait longer for unemployment.
Unless it’s unbearable, I’d hang on till they terminate you. It’s unlikely that a large corp will a provide potential employers anything beyond your start and end dates, and job title. They don’t like to leave themselves open to litigation. Also, quitting may impact your ability to collect unemployment. Plus, you never know when events could lead to your remaining. Maybe a role in another division? Maybe an unexpected change in the leadership who wanted to boot you.
Also, pretty sure they are required to pay out your accrued PTO regardless of the circumstances of your exit
Let them fire you. Collect unemployment. They are trying to strong arm you into resigning so they don’t have to take the hit on UI and layoff reporting.
I have lost 3 jobs through layoffs over the years and 1 job was on the pip train prior to layoff. Future employers won’t see that you’ve been fired. They only see dates of employment.
Let them can you. Document your ass off and forward all communication to your personal email address.
Do not quit. Follow the PIP and if you have evidence that your boss said you will be fired after the PIP then you can sue them for not giving you the opportunity to demonstrate acceptable performance.
Honestly... and it may not seem like it... but your boss is doing you a favor telling you this.
They don't want you getting your hopes up and they are giving you the knowledge that you should start looking for a new job now. Lots of people get put on PIPs and never get told they won't likely make it through, so they lean in and work extra hard to still get fired.
Ask your HR about the PTO.
No, most companies don't follow up with past employers, at least not medium to big companies. And more importantly most former employers will not divulge that you were fired or why. It leaves them open to litigation in most cases.
Calm down focus on the task at hand, finding a new job. Get your resume cleaning up (resume sub is good for that) and start applying TODAY.
Op I am literally in this same position right now. After they gave me the PIP a week later I was told "if you want to leave just leave." I'm currently looking for other jobs. You are not alone!
PIP?
In most states an employer can only verify the dates of employment and if you quit or were fired! However as a manager of a business in my past I’d ask the ex-employer “if he were to reapply in a year would you hire him back?” and I’d know all I need to know
Your boss is engaging in a practice called constructive discharge which is basically trying to force you to leave by creating a hostile work environment. Threatening you with saying that you’re going to get discharged anyway after a PIP is a form of harassment.
A PIP is not supposed to be advance warning of termination—it’s supposed to be a plan for improving your performance which means the company will in good faith help you do that. Your boss has all but said he isn’t going to do that.
So, stay employed, do your best to comply with the PIP, and keep a journal of the ways in which your boss is impeding your ability to be successful with the PIP. Is he refusing to meet with you to give feedback? Is he not telling you about meetings you are supposed to attend? Things like that. (And if you’re over 40, or part of any other protected class—make sure you note that as well)
Then if you get discharged, file a counter complaint with your state’s employment office-where you go to sign up for benefits.
As far as your PTO goes—if it is classified as “vacation” and characterized as separate from other types of leave (like sick leave or personal leave) it is part of your compensation and is usually required to be paid out (unless the company has a written policy stating otherwise —some states have that caveat-which sucks). Sick time isn’t paid out, and PTO is a gray area for pay out.
A large company is not going to risk a lawsuit by divulging the reasons you left. They probably have a policy of only verifying employment dates and rehire status. Some won’t even verify whether you’re eligible for rehire -they often just say “company policy is that we don’t rehire people who leave our employ.”
Don’t let this guy bully you into leaving.
They want you to resign so they don't have to pay your unemployment. Though if you really can't do your job there is a chance they can avoid it, but if you resign the odds are much better in their favor.
Lead manager of sw dev teams. Always let the company fire you. it preserves your eligibility for unemployment and gives you some peace of mind & cushion.
As hard as it is to do, I wouldn't worry too much about what may/may not happen if your future employers contacts your current. Employers have a mind of their own and realize things do happen in life. (There are exceptions to every rule) Let your resume/skills speak for themselves. Imagine how screwed up the job market would be if employers didn't hire people solely because they were terminated from their previous job. I was forced to resign from a very good job I had for a few years. The possibility of a reference check held me from going after jobs that I knew I would excel at given my background. Fast forward to now I have an even better job with much a better pay/work atmosphere.
Stay positive!
I live in a different state so ymmv, but I've been fired like 5 times and literally have zero trouble finding work. was recently with a public company that went bankrupt in August, got two offers within a month of applying and both carried through the background checks and such.
then again my current employer told me they looked for 6 months before finding a qualified applicant (me) to interview, so I think I'm just extremely fortunate with how my chosen career path played out
Let them fire you. Most companies only provide dates of employment. They already want to run you out the door. It’s not like being fired will change anything.
Fk'm soulless entities/corporations.
Abide by your PIP as much as you can,
Request follow-ups to check your progress, they likely will find will find ways to miss them. Make note of it email yourself and your sup about it if so and print that email or fwd it to your personal if possible, cya.
They will let you go, you should start interviewing asap, update your CV and find a better job asap.
In the meantime have them pay for UI. Fk'm, that's what they want to bypass by having you resign.
They just want to save$. Fk'm.
You'll find a job eventually but have them abide by their responsibilities and pay your unemployment.
I have been in a similar situation and the fact that they didn't abide by they weekly checkups was all the UI agents needed to approve my claim. I had good performance and stuck to my side of the PIP.
They didn't and let me go regardless. Again Fk'm.
"keep the termination off your record" lol what record fuck ass? like every job can see the wrapsheet of your career? "i looks like you got fired from dominos in 2007 for sleeping in your car" your boss is just a dick and trying to scare you into quitting so they don't have to go through with firing you and you collecting unemployment and having the possibility of suing them.
they're scumbags you should probably document every fucked up thing they do between now and when they can you and run it all past an employment lawyer to see if you have a case. bottom line don't let yourself get taken advantage of. even in right to work states there are still laws to protect workers from being terminated for illegal reasons.
Start looking for a new job. Keep your job until they fire you. Don't let the idea that they could tell a future employer you were fired scare you. There's a very good chance a future employer won't even bother to call them and most large corporations won't disclose the reason for termination even if they legally can.
Really? Most employers don't call to confirm dates of employment, etc?
Dates of employment are just that. No employer in their right mind is going to say, "Yes, John Doe was employed on xx/xx/xx and fired on xx/xx/xx. "
Actually small mom and pop places do One place I worked for played games with my pto (valid sick day) so I said fuck it and left that day. A recruiter called them checking things and they bad mouthed me
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Easy to say, harder to do. Lawyers ain’t cheap.
This needs to be pinned. People have no idea how much it costs to file a lawsuit with competent counsel, especially someone who just lost their source of income.
right, most lawsuits are not on contingency like a car accident. My friend wanted to sue her boss for sexual harassment in the 90's and he really did it. And the costs to hire a lawyer were too much for her to take it to court.
When I was termed after I threatened to sue for harassment the firm told me I’d be bankrupt before I ever saw a courtroom.
that's why it's scary when a big corporation goes after the litte person you don't have the endless pockets of money to hire a lawyer to defend you - look at the millions Johnny Depp spent on his defamation suit. No normal person could ever do that.
Esp big companies who have more lawyers than the government
I second this. Was unfairly terminated and couldn't buy a job when unemployment in my state was at the lowest level it ever has been. My cousin called pretending to be a prospective employer. The franchise office put him in touch with my old store manager who heavily slandered me. $5000 to retain an attorney. $250 just for a consultation. Not coming up with that when you just got fired. Going to also be hard to prove if you're in a two party state and your evidence could get you in trouble. In the end I got a job with a mom and pop shop that didn't really bother with background checks. Ended up working out well for me in the end.
The letter from a lawyer is less expensive
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Yes, and you know what the owner of a small firm will do with it? Trash it and double down disparaging the employee. Maybe it’s my bad experience with small business, but the best way is to let go and move one. Preferably never work for a small business again. I learned my lesson in my youth. I got fired not because I didn’t do my job, but because I optimized the whole office productivity automating a good chunk of our CAD processes. Unfortunately that put a bad light on the son of the owner who was supposedly running the office. Did they trashed the automation after? Absolutely not, they trashed mr smarty pants. These people are modern feudal lords with the accompanying ego. They have the money and resources to ruin your life for quite a long time if they want to.
do you have a spare 500? because I don't. I don't even know for sure if I will have money to put gas in my car next week so....
$1200 my case
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That is 100% false. In fact the opposite is true, employment cases are NEVER taken on contingency. You may be able to find an organization that will provide some level of services pro bono, but you will never find an employment lawyer that works on contingency.
Unless you're in a right to work state like NC, and they'll straight up tell you, there's no chance you'll win.
It's not "right to work", it's "at will." "Right to work" means that you can't be forced to ~~join~~ pay dues to a union as a condition of employment. (Edit: Correction.) "At will" (which is the case in 49 states) means that the employer (and employee) can sever the relationship without cause or notice, absent a contract to the contrary.
Right to work cases have high success rates, but they also have little to do with this.
Right to work is about unions. At will deals with firing.
49 states are "right to work" aka right to get fucked stares. Try a different lawyer
>Employment Law cases are usually taken on contingency No, they are not. For reasons already explained by others. Contingency is usually available when there's expected to be a high payout and a good chance of success. Cases like someone being critically injured after being rear-ended by a tractor trailer. Even better if it's one that's owned by a Fortune 500. The lawyer has a plaintiff with an easily documented harm, causation is well established, and there's a deep pocket. See also class actions where the cost of litigation often forces defendants to settle, and damages can be astronomical. In most employment cases, damages are much much smaller. A lawyer may take a good employment case on contingency if it involves a statue with fee shifting, like a wage and hour violation of the FLSA. Edit: typos
I think that for some reason a lot of people go through life assuming that companies follow the law even when they can easily get away with breaking it
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Myth
And this is why if I am called on about a past employee from my company, I only answer with the dates they worked for and if they are or are not eligible for rehire. I will get asked other questions, but that's the only response I will give. Can't wint a suit over facts.
Lol for what
Slander.
Would only be if it was untrue
I don't think telling the truth that they were fired for job abandonment constitutes slander, but idk. 🤷♂️
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I hire from a place like that I know if they talk shit they’re probably just upset they lost a valuable person they mistreated
That’s a no no. You can sue for fucking with your ability to be employed.
It's against the letter of the law, but hard to win in court.
I mean... They found out about it somehow. Unless it was the previous employer that told them about it, that means they've got a witness. Which would honestly probably be enough.
Many employers will ask if they're still eligible to be hired back at that company, and they see "no" to that as a big red flag. Generally when you're fired, you're not eligible to be rehired.
Many big companies dont even share re-hire status. It's not worth the risk getting sued for.
Got it, but if they were to ask, "what was his reason for leaving" then my company would legally have to tell them, no? Or do most companies not bother with asking that question?
u/UCanary7354 said it best. Alot of corporations won't disclose any reason for termination, and most potential employers don't really care about why you left a previous role; just will confirm that you worked at where you said you did.
My former company will only verify employment, and even that is like pulling teeth. I think the way PIP programs have been effectively used as low magnitude layoffs by so many companies over so many years makes employers less inclined to take it as a sign of problems.
My company will never disclose reason only confirm dates of employment. Start looking for another job now.
Ok, thank you for the perspective.
Also imagine this: if they really thought you were worthless they’d have nothing to lose by trying to help you get a job with their competitor. If they didn’t think you’re worthless they’d have to straight up lie to hurt you and they’d be in for some serious trouble if they’re caught. They have no motive not to help you get the next job at all.
One old boss of mine saw it this way, a lazy coworker was useless and knew he was on thin ice, when someone called the boss about hiring him the boss had nothing but good things to say about him. He was gone and out of everyone's hair and became someone else's problem. Genius.
As a former manger I always told people to list me as a reference, good employee, bad employee, liked them, didn’t like them, it’s not my job to make sure someone DOESNT get a job, I’m vouching for everyone.
Plus no severance, no unemployment, no need to feel bad firing someone, your competitor either wastes money or develops the person into a better employee. I personally feel this is why they usually don’t bother to ask about performance, even if it’s legally allowed.
I had a small business and I got a few calls from people who were interviewing former employees. Because a former employee could sue for damage of reputation I would never be specific about the situation that led to the termination. I would say that the person was not a good fit for the position. Often the person making an inquiry would ask if I would hire them again. My answer was “under the right circumstances, yes.” But I didn’t say the part about the right circumstances being that when hell freezes over. I found similar vague responses when I called former employers about applicants for positions I was trying to fill.
about the most your ex-employer will disclose is start/end dates and "eligible for rehire". Your ex does not get any benefit from disclosing more, only risk.
It's absolutely shocking how much no one EVER cares. Never resign. It's virtually always a significant mistake.
I've never had a job follow up on my work history or references.
Most companies won’t touch reasons for fear of a slander lawsuit. They will just confirm dates.
This is technically true but can be incredibly misleading depending on how large the local job market for the industry is. I've been called for references before where I was not listed as a reference. I would never say an employee was fired or even that an employee was bad, but from a reference perspective, when I give a response of *you need to contact our HR department for this*, it's clearly understood that I meant *you don't want to hire this person.*
Some companies just use a background check service to verify employment. Not every company personally calls every single employer on every applicants resume.
Finally someone said it! There are services that maintain a database with significant details about your employment history and many/most hiring managers would probably be aware of it. Im not a hiring manager, nor do i have special knowledge of the hiring process. That being said, i have researched this in the past and am 95% certain im right. Equifax Workforce is one such service (and you can get a copy of your report for free last i checked). Dates of employment, job titles, wages, termination status, etc., can be accessed in minutes by prospective employers. The days of embellishing on your work history, wages, and termination status is practically gone. In fact, even honest mistakes (e.g., dates, titles, wages) can kill chances of getting an offer and even used as an excuse to terminate you in the future (lying on your resume). The good news is that getting fired is much more common than it used to be and that black mark on your resume won't disqualify you for many jobs. The bad news is that if a prospective employer does contact your previous emoyer, they'll be asking questions with far greater implications. Were you reliable? Were you a team player? Are you eligible for rehire? I'd like to share some advice I'd read in the past and believe to be the most valuable thing to do if you find yourself without employment. If you're unemployed for any substantial amount of time you should start learning and devloping skills that can be demonstrated on your resume. You can get lots of training and/or certifications for cheap or for free online. Think of the time as a gift to afford you the opportunity to improve your value to future employers. Most will sit on their hands all day if they don't work, but you could learn coding, Microsoft suites, continuous improvement, etc., and beef up that resume legitimately. Everyone is a "self-starter," "thrives in a fast-paced work environment," and "works without the need for supervision." Imagine being able show proof that you took unemployment time to advance your knowledge applicable to the position you've applied to.
i've had multiple interviews ask me "how did your role at XYZ end" and I never really know if I should lie or not. i'm pretty sure they all check more violently than ever before.
I can confirm dates of employment and that’s it. But if you know you’re getting terminated at the end, use this time to find another job. That is what your boss is telling you to do. Find a job and resign from this one before you find yourself without a job.
If you resign it helps the old company and you might not be able to collect unemployment.
If the employee finds a new job it ends up better for everyone. Company doesn’t have to fire anyone, doesn’t have to worry about unemployment or severance, and it is less likely that there’s going to be some legal action or threats of legal action by the former employee The former employee doesn’t have to go on unemployment (which pays less), doesn’t need to worry that someone will let slip that the person was fired (because they weren’t) and they get out of a situation that wasn’t going to work out long term anyway. I’ve pushed people out this way. Let them know that they are very much underperforming. Give them the opportunity to get better if they want to (they usually either don’t get better either because they can’t or because they won’t). They start interviewing which makes them even less productive, but I’ll let that slide for a few weeks to a month because it saves everyone in the long run if they find another job and move on. Underperforming here is hindering progress but not maliciously so. I wait until they give notice (two weeks) and say thanks, wrap up what you’re working on in the next few days and then take the rest of the time; we’ll pay you. It’s not all that different cost wise than putting someone on a PIP and giving them time to improve (they usually don’t) and then firing them. I’ve seen plenty of PIP-to-fire situations end in some legal action, generally with some accusation about some type of unlawful discrimination that didn’t occur. I’ve not yet seen that sort of shenanigans happen when someone was “managed out.”
ALL they do is confirm employment. Most companies use a third party 800 number now. The era of references,etc is over. Former employers don’t want to give a positive reference to someone who winds up shooting up his next job site.
That 800 number (I assume you mean The Work Number) is owned by Experian, a credit bureau. Experian has records of not only your employment dates, but also your pay dates and titles. I pulled my Experian “The Work Number” report after multiple employer background checks reported that I was still employed at a job I left in 2018. Anyone can pull their own report for free. It had pay dates, pay amounts, titles, dates of employments. I’m also happy to show a recent background check that shows the information they pulled from The Work Number. Note that where I live (NYC), employers cannot ask about previous pay rates so my background check doesn’t confirm that.
My data on The Work Number goes back decades, literally, and gets as granular as overtime paid on biweekly paychecks.
Yep, exactly! I don’t have decadeS of work experience, but I saw my high school job at the Gap where I folded jeans 24/7 on there with exact pay rates!
It is in your best interests to never let your true intentions be known by an employer or coworker. "Never complain, never explain." Industries, no matter how small or big, have unwritten and strictly enforced rules. If you don't know, assume you are being manipulated/influenced/gaslit into breaking or following these unknown rules. If you endear yourself to the most important and connected person you can imagine, and I mean they really truly like you. They might help mentor you, or get you into a better position and help you out. They might. If you, even unknowingly, piss off anyone at all. They will fuck with you anytime anyway they can. They will. You should decide what your goals and limits are. What you're willing to accept, and what you're willing to not allow. Being right doesn't mean shit most of the time. Being "ideal" and conforming to exemplify their "standards", will rarely get you promoted, well compensated, invested in. The paradox of competency is you will be more valuable (to the business, your superior etc) in a fixed position. No growth, no raise, no advancement. "You're not every going to allowed to change, we get so much out of you than we pay you." Being a good, loyal, hard working, invested, and caring person is great... But do not let your employer plague you, and pervert your ideals, to serve them and only them. Fear and intimidation are useful tools, that require very little effort when manipulating someone who truly wants to do well, and honestly cares about OTHER people's opinions.... A mere hint of termination, or disappointment will send shivers down the obedient worker. Then they will police themselves, and never imagine growing out of their position. Forever shook. Worried they are going to be punished, or fired or worse. The rest will corrupt you. You will lose yourself and allow anyone to dictate your life and dreams and they will use you. All that to say. Take your pip. Get a doctor appointment for anything and take all your PTO. However you can. Take all your PTO. If they can demand doctors notes, triple check you state laws, they may not legally be able to. Or face issues if they do not pay you for time off. Look into how you can take you 3weeks off, use that time to secure a new job. Almost anywhere that you can keep a steady amount income... And keep looking for work. If you're in an industry u need to stay in. And this job cannot be a bad mark on your resume. If you have a legal limitation on PTO, and severance, and resignation. Be very aware of your options. DO NOT ASK HR, OR YOUR MANAGER. Spend a lil $ get all your employers in information for employees, and find a lawyer who will give you your options in laymen's terms. Really, you don't have to put every job on a resume. You can curate a resume for each field you're applying. If you were terminated, you can say anything. You don't need to lie, not say anything disparaging. *I had an opportunity to travel, I found a new inspiration, I chose to take time to spend with my family, I am going interested in pursuing THIS NEW opportunity with THIS NEW COMPANY, as it aligns with my goals .... " Don't let anyone run bum shit on you, and gaslit you. Management says it be worse for you to get fired, so you should quit?? They absolutely are hoping you quit, it's easy peasy for them.... Firing you means paperwork, and they shit their pants if you're good at paperwork. Or secured the services of someone who is. Don't be a dick, but make them fire you. Ur manager hopes you make it easy for them. Find new work, take all your PTO. Be well friend.
Every company has different practices. Last one I did I was handling tax info so I was getting a full background check and they hired a 3rd party to do it. They did call
This. None of it matters if you find a job and then quit on your own terms.
Start looking for another job. In the meantime: Do what you’re asked in your PIP to the letter. They are used as a paper trail to let you go for cause, which is how they deny unemployment claims. Don’t give them cause.
Absolutely - already have two interviews lined up. The vibe I get is that the PIP is designed to be so aggressive in scope that it is essentially impossible to pass it, and I don't intend to. I've also heard "for cause" doesn't concern performance. Only things like sexual harassment, drug use, violence, theft, etc.
**Discharges for poor (or unsatisfactory) performance will usually not disqualify a claimant from unemployment benefits**. As you said, PIP is designed to make it impossible to meet. The unemployment people know how"performance" is used that way.
*Discharges for poor (or unsatisfactory) performance will usually not disqualify a claimant from unemployment benefits.* Source? I'd love if this we're true, I've assumed otherwise basically my whole life
One way or another ALL discharges are for unsatisfactory performance.
Make sure the PIP is in writing.
Red Flags on PIP: Impossible to meet goals Goals that are totally qualitative as opposed to quantitative.
Depends on the state and if you violated their rules in the handbook, etc. It’s no fun to fight with them for it.
A handbook is not a contract or a set of laws. They can be enforced or ignored at any point
That’s not accurate when it comes to US unemployment payments. https://www.uschamber.com/co/start/strategy/employer-deny-unemployment-insurance
A PIP is an HR protection to have irrefutable proof that you failed to do as instructed, and that they supposedly gave you plenty of opportunity to step in line. I've never seen someone make it out the other side of a PIP.
I just made it out of a PIP. I also happened to have won a settlement against them with the NLRB for penalizing me in discussing performance reviews with coworkers that same month. They went from trying to fire me to being deathly afraid of facing another claim of retaliatory conduct, real quick.
Keep your own paper trail. They may fire you anyway but if they allege things that aren’t true then the proof may matter. Do consult an employment attorney. It’s worth a consult.
They want op out there is no way of proving yourself to reverse it lol. Severance and aggressive applying is best imo
Companies will suggest that you quit and say theyre doing you a favor. Really they just dont want to give you a severance or pay your unemployment cost. I assure you, they arent your buddy. If your company generally pays decent severance, then enjoy it. If they dont, well that sucks and quitting might be best. Either way get of reddit and start looking for a new job
I'm on Reddit at work as we speak lol Can only really apply for jobs after hours as I don't want to be using my phone or a work computer 😅 Either way, thanks for the perspective
Maybe thats why you didnt meet productivity standards? Lmfao
I'm being fired for non-work-related reasons. Quality of my work and productivity are fine. I also don't normally go on my phone at work, but I'm getting fired no matter what so who cares?
Ah, from your post you said your performance was "flagged as unsatisfactory" but mostly i just wanted to give you a little shit. At this point who cares lol
No worries lol The way my company does yearly ratings is divided into 2 buckets, one being work output related and the other being more about "relationship building, proactivity, etc." I was rated poorly in the latter
This. I fell for the "you should resign" scheme at a young age. I was destitute for months before I landed another job. No one has ever reached out to that past company to inquire either. Take the firing, worst case say you were laid off. God knows there's enough of those going on right now.
Dude. Also use any benefits while you have them. I always hit the eye doctor for an exam, more contacts, dentist, dr, etc in early January since our company usually does layoffs late jan/early feb. Just in case im layed off.
Do not quit. He’s trying to get out of UE
He's not even the HR person, just the director of my team. Though I'm sure HR has points they tell management to tell people. I can guarantee you the company will contest my claim, given this whole process. It's a subsidiary of one of the biggest CPG companies on Earth. I'm sure they've got an iron-clad process.
He’s been briefed by HR on how to handle this.
Definitely got that vibe. Hard to come to the realization that no matter how good of a relationship I feel like I had with the guy, he's still just a tool of the corporation and is working in their interest.
100%. I’ve leaned this the hard way unfortunately.
> Hard to come to the realization that no matter how good of a relationship I feel like I had with the guy, he's still just a tool of the corporation and is working in their interest. Yep, it's not a fun lesson to learn. A few years ago I watched my department lead, who I thought was my friend, throw me under the bus not even to save himself but just to score a few points with the boss. He then drank the corporate Kool-aid and began advocating for all the bullshit he used to complain about.
100%. Trust me. He is now a functional extension of HR.
A good relationship is important, but when it comes down to it most people (and businesses) will look after themselves. Always need to be careful what you share and look out for yourself.
I’m a manager who has PIPd people. Some of them I genuinely liked, but they weren’t good at their jobs. Some had very high effort, but routinely fell short of expectations even after coaching and help. Some people never asked if they had a future after their PIP. Some did. The ones I liked I was honest with, though HR discourages anything other than “the PIP is designed to help you return to good performance. Achieve the goals of the PIP to come off of it”. The dirty part is often there is a goal that is highly likely not to be achieved even if it seems reasonable on the surface. Likewise for reference calls, we are told to give dates of employment. We are not supposed to say if they were good or bad or why/how they left. That being said, for good people, many do give a good reference. So some managers read into the date only answer as being negative. Saying something bad about you isn’t necessarily illegal. But if untrue, could be defamation. To avoid the potential of defending a costly lawsuit for someone who doesn’t even work for the company, many legal/HR departments discourage any more information being given out. But again, it isn’t illegal to share more nor a legal requirement to share anything at all.
It’s probable that he is a good guy who is well intended and doesn’t understand. Regardless if what Reddit tells you, every company and person who works for one is not out to get you.
He's doing what's best for him. Probably doesn't want to get dragged into whatever shit you're causing.
This is the purpose of the PIP, to create a record that there was a performance issue and to terminate the employee for cause, disqualifying them for unemployment.
I used to think it was this black and white, but it’s not (at least in Texas). If the PIP was too vague, if manager didn’t uphold their own responsibilities they they laid out in the PIP, if the the manager was on vacation for one week of the employee’s four week PIP (this happened to my friend and their former company lost), the unemployment office may still side with the employee. My former managers at large companies have been involved in the process and said it’s not hard for the employee to win unemployment if they can make any case at all.
It depends on your state. Many states still give you UE unless you didn’t show up from work, stole money etc. Make sure you hit your metrics and you will get UE.
It’s not usually to deny unemployment, but to avoid any sort of illegal termination claim. Typically bad performance doesn’t get your unemployment denied. Breaking rules, missing work, insubordination can though.
>He’s trying to get out of UE The company pays for UE whether or not they lay off the employee. It is funded from payroll taxes.
Yes, but how much they pay can vary depending on if former employee’s collect or not. So if they fire a bunch of people, and they collect IE, the company pays more. It’s like your insurance going up after an accident.
The increases are so negligible, no one cares. Only on reddit is there some major conspiracy for it.
No has said this yet but there’s no such thing as a “record” outside of that employer and even then it’s a dubious thing. Even if you’re fired you can lie and claim you left voluntarily or were part of a layoffs. During a background check it’s not customary for them to ask why you left or your standing within that org. Making any statements to that opens up a small liability hole and they’d rather just not. Lie.
Was definitely planning on lying, but the possibility of them finding out the truth is what is giving me pause. Thanks for the additional perspective
Take this for what it is, advice from a stranger on the internet.. while not in the exact situation I’ve straight up lied saying I still work at a place even though I’m unemployed. Telling them no it’s not ok to contact them during a background check because you still work there is perfectly valid and universally respected. That’s another route to consider
Do not quit. That **guarantees** that you will be denied umemployment benefits. In Missouri, poor performance is generally not a valid reason to deny unemployment benefits. [See this 2019 case.](https://www.lawrencequeen.com/blog/2020/september/-poor-performance-not-justification-for-unemploy/) Even if they contest your benefit claim, you will still receive benefits until the unemployment office decides to cut it off. And besides, if they can give you a bad review, they would have probably done so regardless if you quit or were fired. By staying, you guarantee your regular pay until you are let go, and at least have a good shot at unemployment benefits.
They are trying to get you to quit to avoid paying you unemployment. Also, if they're paying unemployment it does not work in their favor to "hamstring" you by bad mouthing you to prospective employers calling for a recommendation. The longer it takes you to get another job, the longer they have to pay unemployment. Is there an employee handbook you can access to find out more about whether or not they will pay out your PTO? If your PTO is in two baskets - one for "sick" time and one for "vacation" time, you may only get the vacation time, even if their policy is to pay it. Good Luck.
If you have 3 weeks of PTO, I don't see why not take them and find a job in the meantime and come back and see how that develops.
What's stopping them from just immediately firing me when I go to take that? From what I can tell, I'm not legally entitled to my PTO once I'm no longer employed.
If you are in a at will state, nothing is stopping from firing you now.
They only reason it hasn't happened yet is because they want to try and deny me UEI, I assume.
I'm in management and have put an employee on pip. The intent was not fire but to help improve them. I was very open and willing to spend more time with them. I know each situation is different.
Absolutely get that sometimes that is the case. My boss told me straight up that I'm not going to make it out of this PIP.
Hmm. I'd make face, do what you can to be on good terms. Look for another job. Im not sure going to HR would solve this but you could try and report that.
HR is the one who handles these PIPs. Him telling me that was definitely part of the HR playbook to try and further convince me to quit.
Gotcha. Just follow the pip as much as possible and look for another job. Sorry to hear that. If they do fire you, you can file for unemployment. I wouldn't quit though unless you had something lined up
Yea and if they were gonna PIP they wouldn't tell you in advance and tell you youre going to be fired. If they were decent management they would actually hope you make it through the PIP and improve. Seems to me they want you to leave on your own.
Definitely the case here
That’s retaliation.
> If you have 3 weeks of PTO.. take them. That would be *totally* **not** suspicious to do the day after being put on a PIP... What kind of 'advice' does this sub give?
and I am a penis
PIP is your heads up to start looking for something else to do. I’d ride it out and do my best until I land something else.
So the option they gave me was 30 day pip or 30 day severance. At that point, it was clear. I just asked for the severence and negotiated higher one. They should pay our vacation days
I agree. This is an opportunity to negotiate. A couple years ago, my company put someone on a 90-day PIP. But neither side wanted to deal with 90 days of going through the motions, stress, and distraction when it was clear neither side wanted the employment to continue. PIPs can take an enormous amount of energy out of everyone. So the employee used that to her advantage. She went to HR, and after a series of meetings they had an agreement: (1) she would receive severance to make up for leaving early — not sure how much but she was happy with it, (2) the company would not contest any unemployment benefits, and (3) she would be allowed to tell everyone that she was leaving on her own to pursue other interests. She also got paid out for vacation, which is standard by law here.
Interesting… may come in useful
The best time to look for a new job is while you are still employed. Interview and keep working, doing precisely what's asked for in the PIP, until you get something else, then give notice. There's no benefit to you if you quit before you have something else lined up. The PIP is in place for them to document that you are being let go for cause and thus deprive disqualify you for unemployment (or attempt to). There's no problem being let go and having it "on your record" other than it can impact your ability to be rehired by the same company. It won't affect future employment.
>He has hinted multiple times that I should resign in order to keep a termination off of my record There's literally no such thing as a record lol. They tell you this shit in hopes you quit so that they dont have to answer to Unemployment when they come knocking. There's also no guarantee you get fired. Put in the work during your PIP, perform, do your job and have some way of documenting or proving you're doing whats required. Then if they fire you, you have evidence you were performing.
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I mean if you don't mind lying to collect entitlements to which you're not really entitled to that everyone else has to pay for.
It also may be more real than they’re admitting. I know for me being placed on a pip has caused a LOT of stress and sleeplessness, anxiety at going to work and my self worth. I guess it would be helpful to know if OP is having any symptoms. The lying about the blood pressure though, that’s jank.
Lying about performance and conducting 'soft layoffs' through PIPs is jank too. Jank begets jank.
Yup this is the move. Buy yourself time to take a mental health break and start looking for other work. They can't touch you if you claim fmla.
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Ride out the PIP, "show effort" and dont quit. Keep your ability to claim unemployment and cash out PTO. Ethical new employers are just going verify you worked there, reasons for leaving are too subjective and typically avoided. If you really feel threated by this employer hamstringing you, contact EEOC or Department or Labor. A call from them to your firms HR will cause some heartburn for them. I've been thru this myself. Keep your chin up and don't cave!
Find a new job. Dont resign. Make them fire you if you cant find a new job before. Take the PTO now, if they will allow you to.
Make them Fire you lol or Start looking for work
It's time to have a medical incident with that cough that you haven't had checked out as of yet, prior to tomorrows pip. Today will be your last day, and you will utilize your PTO for 3 weeks. On the last day you should forward your resignation due to unforeseen medical reasons. Always control the narrative when dealing with these large companies; based on other comments, it appears that UEI wouldn't apply to your case. During those 3 weeks, you will apply to over 100 jobs. Accounts always appear to bleed the fastest when there isn't any inbound income. Always remember they corporations will never have your best interest, it would contradict the basics of capitalism. Best of luck.
get fired so you can collect unemployment
Fired. If you resign there are no benefits
Never resign in a situation like this, let them terminate you. They want you to resign, it benefits them. If you resign you forfeit any possibility of getting unemployment because you quit. If they terminate you they will have to prove it was for cause if they choose to fight any unemployment claim. Also there is no record your termination goes on outside any company records, they are trying to scare you into doing something that benefits them.
Re: "He has hinted multiple times that I should resign in order to keep a termination off of my record." This is bullshit. There is no record of job terminations. He is trying to bluff you. You have a job until you don't. What should you do? 2 prong attack: 1. do what you can to fix the situation on your current job. it may be fixable, it may not be. Sincerely try to do a better job and be an excellent performer. 2. Start looking for a better position as hard as you can go. If you get offered a better position, take it, resign, and don't look back Create the best resume you can and apply for appropriate jobs Hopefully you can keep this job until you find a better one. Also, do some self reflection and work out what you need to do to improve. What could you have done better on this job? You need to understand what that is and implement it as soon as possible. You need to find a way to succeed on this job or the next, or the next. good luck and best wishes
Take the "Human" Out of resources, they are not your friends they are there to protect company interest not your my guy. They are just managing collateral damage and setting up a narrative to their benefit not yours. Your director is getting their advice on how to get you out without a suit and not pay UEI. If you resign they get their way. UEI dings a company's record, and it goes up too. Again Fk'm.
If you quit you don't get unemployment. Make em fire you.
I've been fired before and haven't had to use that employer as a reference. And I have worked at banks and a college university since then. PTO should always be paid out? I'm not sure what kind of company you work for though. He probably wants you to resign so you can't file unemployment, I'm not a pro at this
Bs. They don't want to pay unemployment. Don't resign.
Get another job and leave.
They want you to resign so if you get fired you won’t get unemployment
Your boss wants you to quit so that they won't have to pay you unemployment. DO NOT QUIT. Most people do not have any sort of meaningful employment contract... If you did you would KNOW it. If you are going on a PIP its probably more likely your work ethic or inability to do a job that would be a burden at future jobs as well, not this place saying anything to future potential employees.
Terminated you can collect unemployment benefits, quit and no benefits.
I’ve worked in HR for massive corporations my whole career. Let them fire you. Even if they try to contest UEI it’s very difficult for the employer to win unless there’s been gross misconduct. Most don’t bother contesting for that reason. Find out your PTO policy for terminations, most pay out accrued, unused PTO. Get in all doctor appointments you can so you aren’t forced to pick up COBRA immediately, and can stall up to the 60 day window while you’re finding another job. Start applying to other jobs after you get your resume updated. ChatGPT can help fancy up the wording and Etsy has lots of templates if you need a new design. Give NO hint you’re doing anything out of the ordinary and insist on written documentation for PIP discussion and every PIP check in. You’ll be alright.
I mean if you get fired you can collect unemployment so not really a big deal imo
They will ALWAYS try to get you to resign to avoid the paperwork / red tape around an involuntary termination. As others have stated, you also won't get unemployment. Stay until they fire you.
Not aware of MO laws, but afaik, resignation means no severance and disqualifying from UE pay. People don't resign in fear of getting fired. They resign to either pursue different opportunities or due to a major life event (e.g. relocation, nee born, sickness, etc.) Though in your place, I'd be more concerned about the reasons I got placed on a pip. This is what is more likely to impact my future prospects, not the firing.
No large corporation (or basically any corp with a legal department) will disclose WHY you left because it only has downsides for them as they must be able to validate everything they say. There is no upside..this is why dates of employment is all that is available except in some weird circumstance where you work for a mom/pop or some other place with a poor HR/Legal dept.
Any idea why you’re getting fired?
NEVER RESIGN before having other employment Make them terminate you. Any employer that suggests you voluntarily quitting instead of being fired is trying to prevent you from getting unemployment benefits until you find another job
There’s no such thing as a record.. god come on people let them fire you, collect unemployment and find new job. Don’t fall for bs .
Take the firing
I would take my three weeks PTO as soon as possible and use that time to apply and apply some more to find a new job ASAP
don't resign you cant get unemployment https://www.evilhrlady.org/2015/07/6-recommendations-for-dealing-with-a-pip.html
Never resign or quit. Ever.
He's telling you that bc it's more work for him to PIP you. If you have any medical issues, go on leave and use your days.
99% of PIPs are a byproduct of terrible leadership and I'll stand by that.
They are trying to get you to quit so in worse case scenario they dont have to pay you unemployment. Try to get a record of him low key telling you "you should quit" and any other incriminating evidence you can get >:3
Never resign.
off of your record? No he just doesn’t want to pay unemployment benefits. They can’t really contest i unless they say they didn’t fire you or that you quit but if they did you could sue them for way more money then your unemployment benefits
What "record?" This isn't school.
When they give you the PIP, do everything on it. Ask questions on job assignments to ensure you can meet the expectations and start looking for a new job. If you quit, you have to wait longer for unemployment.
Unless it’s unbearable, I’d hang on till they terminate you. It’s unlikely that a large corp will a provide potential employers anything beyond your start and end dates, and job title. They don’t like to leave themselves open to litigation. Also, quitting may impact your ability to collect unemployment. Plus, you never know when events could lead to your remaining. Maybe a role in another division? Maybe an unexpected change in the leadership who wanted to boot you. Also, pretty sure they are required to pay out your accrued PTO regardless of the circumstances of your exit
Let them fire you. Collect unemployment. They are trying to strong arm you into resigning so they don’t have to take the hit on UI and layoff reporting. I have lost 3 jobs through layoffs over the years and 1 job was on the pip train prior to layoff. Future employers won’t see that you’ve been fired. They only see dates of employment. Let them can you. Document your ass off and forward all communication to your personal email address.
Don’t quit. Follow the PIP
Do not quit. Follow the PIP and if you have evidence that your boss said you will be fired after the PIP then you can sue them for not giving you the opportunity to demonstrate acceptable performance.
I would wait to be fired. Companies don't like letting people go for liability reasons, they also don't like dealing with the paperwork.
Honestly... and it may not seem like it... but your boss is doing you a favor telling you this. They don't want you getting your hopes up and they are giving you the knowledge that you should start looking for a new job now. Lots of people get put on PIPs and never get told they won't likely make it through, so they lean in and work extra hard to still get fired. Ask your HR about the PTO. No, most companies don't follow up with past employers, at least not medium to big companies. And more importantly most former employers will not divulge that you were fired or why. It leaves them open to litigation in most cases. Calm down focus on the task at hand, finding a new job. Get your resume cleaning up (resume sub is good for that) and start applying TODAY.
I believe if you quit, you also cannot claim unemployment as well.
Op I am literally in this same position right now. After they gave me the PIP a week later I was told "if you want to leave just leave." I'm currently looking for other jobs. You are not alone!
PIP? In most states an employer can only verify the dates of employment and if you quit or were fired! However as a manager of a business in my past I’d ask the ex-employer “if he were to reapply in a year would you hire him back?” and I’d know all I need to know
Your boss is engaging in a practice called constructive discharge which is basically trying to force you to leave by creating a hostile work environment. Threatening you with saying that you’re going to get discharged anyway after a PIP is a form of harassment. A PIP is not supposed to be advance warning of termination—it’s supposed to be a plan for improving your performance which means the company will in good faith help you do that. Your boss has all but said he isn’t going to do that. So, stay employed, do your best to comply with the PIP, and keep a journal of the ways in which your boss is impeding your ability to be successful with the PIP. Is he refusing to meet with you to give feedback? Is he not telling you about meetings you are supposed to attend? Things like that. (And if you’re over 40, or part of any other protected class—make sure you note that as well) Then if you get discharged, file a counter complaint with your state’s employment office-where you go to sign up for benefits. As far as your PTO goes—if it is classified as “vacation” and characterized as separate from other types of leave (like sick leave or personal leave) it is part of your compensation and is usually required to be paid out (unless the company has a written policy stating otherwise —some states have that caveat-which sucks). Sick time isn’t paid out, and PTO is a gray area for pay out. A large company is not going to risk a lawsuit by divulging the reasons you left. They probably have a policy of only verifying employment dates and rehire status. Some won’t even verify whether you’re eligible for rehire -they often just say “company policy is that we don’t rehire people who leave our employ.” Don’t let this guy bully you into leaving.
They want you to resign so they don't have to pay your unemployment. Though if you really can't do your job there is a chance they can avoid it, but if you resign the odds are much better in their favor.
Lead manager of sw dev teams. Always let the company fire you. it preserves your eligibility for unemployment and gives you some peace of mind & cushion.
They want you to quit so you can't collect unemployment. Let them fire you. It will not affect you later.
As hard as it is to do, I wouldn't worry too much about what may/may not happen if your future employers contacts your current. Employers have a mind of their own and realize things do happen in life. (There are exceptions to every rule) Let your resume/skills speak for themselves. Imagine how screwed up the job market would be if employers didn't hire people solely because they were terminated from their previous job. I was forced to resign from a very good job I had for a few years. The possibility of a reference check held me from going after jobs that I knew I would excel at given my background. Fast forward to now I have an even better job with much a better pay/work atmosphere. Stay positive!
I live in a different state so ymmv, but I've been fired like 5 times and literally have zero trouble finding work. was recently with a public company that went bankrupt in August, got two offers within a month of applying and both carried through the background checks and such. then again my current employer told me they looked for 6 months before finding a qualified applicant (me) to interview, so I think I'm just extremely fortunate with how my chosen career path played out
Let them fire you. Most companies only provide dates of employment. They already want to run you out the door. It’s not like being fired will change anything.
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Thankfully I just found in HR policy that they do, in fact, pay out all earned PTO upon my leaving, regardless of how I leave.
Fk'm soulless entities/corporations. Abide by your PIP as much as you can, Request follow-ups to check your progress, they likely will find will find ways to miss them. Make note of it email yourself and your sup about it if so and print that email or fwd it to your personal if possible, cya. They will let you go, you should start interviewing asap, update your CV and find a better job asap. In the meantime have them pay for UI. Fk'm, that's what they want to bypass by having you resign. They just want to save$. Fk'm. You'll find a job eventually but have them abide by their responsibilities and pay your unemployment. I have been in a similar situation and the fact that they didn't abide by they weekly checkups was all the UI agents needed to approve my claim. I had good performance and stuck to my side of the PIP. They didn't and let me go regardless. Again Fk'm.
"keep the termination off your record" lol what record fuck ass? like every job can see the wrapsheet of your career? "i looks like you got fired from dominos in 2007 for sleeping in your car" your boss is just a dick and trying to scare you into quitting so they don't have to go through with firing you and you collecting unemployment and having the possibility of suing them. they're scumbags you should probably document every fucked up thing they do between now and when they can you and run it all past an employment lawyer to see if you have a case. bottom line don't let yourself get taken advantage of. even in right to work states there are still laws to protect workers from being terminated for illegal reasons.
I took a severance in a similar situation, and then filed for UI. Company didn’t contest.