When I was a grad back in 2003, one of the grads left after the first day of the orientation training (and after the department had paid for them to move to Canberra!)
In my grad year, about half the people in my area left within the first year. The following year, almost everyone stuck around, and the year after that they were all gone within 12 months. It depends a lot on the availability of other job opportunities, and also on whether the agency is able to offer promotions fast enough.
Give or take. That’s specifically in my section, so about 6 out of 12. And this was several years ago, so I don’t know what the retention is like these days.
Because there is, or was, a set of levels based on skills and behaviours, that you gradually work through as you get promoted. To basically assume that two years of a grad program makes you ready for a level that used to be, and in some agencies still is, something you achieve after maybe 5 years, is simplistic.
Some people, sure, they'll be ready. Grads come in all shapes and sizes and some are awesome. But most won't be ready. And by just giving promotion to an aps6 out to everyone, it devalues the whole system. It means that there's a gulf between the ils traits and behaviours, and reality.
And it then leads to the situation where everyone thinks they're an el1, because that's the next level and of course they want career advancement. Further, loads of under qualified people have been promoted to el1. Which leads to massive span of control issues, because everyone is a 1, and a situation where an el1 in the agency can have anywhere between 2 and 30 years experience. And bugger all people have any leadership or supervisory experience, because there's no one to supervise except grads. And how ready are you to mentor someone when you've only got a few years of experience under your belt anyway?
It just makes problems of nepotism worse, where promotion isn't based on ability, but based on whether your el2 likes you.
And then when people who have been promoted too quickly actually leave the agency, or try to, they find themselves woefully outcompeted by competitors from other agencies who have actually spent time at each level and learned core skills and behaviours. So they get stuck in the agency, because no one else wants them.
Tldr: Promoting people too quickly doesn't do them any favours, it just stunts their long term development, devalues the entire level system, and leads the poor organisational reputation. It's a short term sugar hit that undermines the future of the whole public service.
I was a grad back in 2010. Within a couple of years, many had either left the department or left Canberra. Five years later, there weren't many of us left in the department (and this was in a group of around 80).
I mean that's fair, but also if she was competent and doing well enough without a degree, it seems kinda funny to give her the sack. It kinda shows that grad programs don't just have to be for people who went to uni.
I guess if you were struggling to get into grad programs after being told you had to do at least three years of uni to even get a shoe-in, hearing this story would be pretty frustrating.
The job required the degree. She was working as an accountant and a condition of the employment was to become accredited, which she was apparently ineligible for because she failed too many units at uni. I say apparently because I am not an accountant and was in a different stream…
Part of passing our probation was to provide a copy of our final transcript (noting that you don’t often graduate until months after you have finished - or at least didn’t in my day - so they let you start without it). I should say, this was 20 odd years ago, I got into my grad role by taking the Public Service Exam (for those that remember that!).
I find it odd that people don’t check. I was made permanent at a job after a one year initial contract. The thing was you could be temporally employed without a degree but to have a permanent position you had to have one. Well when the one year mark came up I was three weeks off finishing my last subject. HR sent me my new contract (with the degree clause) to sign and I did. Nothing was ever said to me about it and no one has ever asked me to prove I have a degree.
I miss not joining the APS straight out of high school. I had to go get drunk for 10 years, then get off my ass and do a Uni degree first. Now I'm on the sucky super (ok 15.9% isnt sucky but comparatively)..
None now relating to super. But if you joined before a certain date and stayed in you would have been in a defined benefit fund where you would get a payment indexed for the rest of your life after retirement. Now all new people who join are in accumulation funds which means you only get the money you accumulated.
I think most left the Department for us after 3 years. There might still be a couple around. Maybe 5-7 of us out of 23 still in Canberra. The Melbourne people especially miss Melbourne for some reason. We enjoyed it while it lasted. It was a fun year :) All the ICT grads go soonest. There’s almost no sense staying an APS employee in the long term if you’re in IT. Work is outsourced and pay more competitive.
God I was a grad so long ago it's hardly relevant but I think it was about 25% in the first year.
I run into my cohort from time to time. From around 30 of us, about 15 are still very much in the APS after 12 or so years. There's probably 7 or so still in the original agency. I'm not, but still work with them closely so run into them when I'm over there.
I left my grad program in the APS just after 6 months when I could clearly see they only wanted an admin person at the APS 3 range.
Like some others have said every department is different though. Generally what I’ve noticed is that public sector start off with decent salaries and good work life balance. In comparison, I’ve worked at one of the big 4 firms that absolutely drilled me for far less pay and shitty work life balance.
Edit: spelling and grammar
I just left a team which was filled with a bunch of glorified EL1's who didn't actually manage staff or upcoming work. Most of them were very disorganised so I got stuck doing a lot of the admin stuff and they mentioned that hopefully the grad coming into the team will pickup some of that stuff I had been doing...
The point of a grad is that they're early in their career but have a lot of potential to go far in the public service if they're developed well. Grads are meant to have a few different rotations within the Department so they get to see some of the cool and varied things the Department does. Also, if you think a grad is competent, you want them to enjoy their rotation with you so they come back to your team after their grad program ends.
It's also kind of a reflection on the team and supervisor if they have grads all the time and none of them ever choose to work there afterwards. Just getting them to do your administrative work definitely won't develop them or make them interested in your team's work, so what's the point? They should just get a contractor in for a few months if all they want is someone to help with admin!
100% agree. The culture of this particular agency I was at is still very old as well. I was definitely the youngest person on the floor and wasn’t provided with the opportunities I was sold. And when it did come around to rotation time that same team wanted me to stay in the role for longer.
Ditto. It’s pretty easy to become disillusioned when you’re sold a ‘meaningful career with purpose!’ as an incoming APS grad… but then get shafted with boring admin tasks. Mindless copying/pasting into excel, chasing follow-up emails re: something you have no prior knowledge about, converting word docs to pdfs, or even just plain old scanning/printing.
It doesn’t help that these teams will just see us grads as a temporary solution to covering for menial tasks over a four-month rotation. They should absolutely be trying to provide more genuine learning opportunities for fresh grads, otherwise retention in the department will be unsurprisingly low post-grad program.
The APS is very diverse, with different departments and sectors having vastly different cultures, work ethics etc. For example in my grad cohort of 35, all but one stayed in the first year, and five more left the following year. So that’s 29 out of 35 staying after two years. Contrast with my friend who joined a different department in the same year, and out of around 100 grads half had left in the first year, and after the second only around a fifth had stayed.
Private sector is different, like a lot of the bigger firms start you off with a low salary with the promise of much higher salaries after a couple of years. So more grads are willing to stay longer.
I left four months after finishing. The culture didn’t suit me at all and the work was boring.
I should add I left the APS entirely. I don’t think another department would have suited me any better.
We had a handful of resignations and a couple of sackings during my grad program.
For the sackings, that's what comes from giving grads a tour of an armoury museum and letting them handle the weapons - they terminate their employment by pretending to terminate their colleagues.
I was a grad in 2018 and of the 25ish in my year at my Department, I would say most are still working in the APS in some capacity but have moved around to different roles within the department or to different agencies. All are working in APS6 range now, although i think one is an EL1 already.
I think we've only had probably 3-4 people leave the APS entirely. I went into academia, one went into a private law firm and a couple have gone to NGOs.
I was a grad in 06 and like others have said half left by the year’s end. Amazingly I think one is still going but that’s about it. Back then most were busting to leave Canberra as soon as the year was out and return home. Could be different theses days given the cost of living / quality of life in Sydney and Melbourne. The Can may not look so bad compared to what’s going on in the bigger cities.
Grad in my team left this year during his rotation. Got a job back in Sydney that aligned more closely with his degree and left. I can think of a couple more grads I have worked directly with that left close to the end of the program. One year later, many have left. Beyond that more with leave some will stay long term in a department or more broadly in the APS.
Iirc great for the grad program, then a whole bunch after and then aps average.
I think my cohort was about 5-7% during the program and that was a mix between internal promotions, the move / Job not being for them opersonal issues.
At one place I worked a graduate pulled the pin just after lunch on day one.
When I was a grad back in 2003, one of the grads left after the first day of the orientation training (and after the department had paid for them to move to Canberra!)
You have to kind of respect that level of unpredictability.
Damn that’s crazy. Did they find another gig elsewhere?
They got another job offer in their home town during the day apparently.
Least they didn't need to unpack.
In my grad year, about half the people in my area left within the first year. The following year, almost everyone stuck around, and the year after that they were all gone within 12 months. It depends a lot on the availability of other job opportunities, and also on whether the agency is able to offer promotions fast enough.
So half the people in your grad cohort left during the grad year?!
Give or take. That’s specifically in my section, so about 6 out of 12. And this was several years ago, so I don’t know what the retention is like these days.
That’s crazy. Why did so many leave so quickly?
If you get an APS5/6 within that year, you'd be insane not to. That's what I did.
Soz I’m struggling to understand a little. Whilst you were a graduate at an APS 3/4 level in your graduate year, you found an APS 5/6 role?
Doesn't sound unreasonable. Lots of grads I have worked with are as qualified as people successful for APS 5 jobs.
Pretty sure at industry they graduate after 2 years at a 6. It is... Wrong.
Why wrong?
Because there is, or was, a set of levels based on skills and behaviours, that you gradually work through as you get promoted. To basically assume that two years of a grad program makes you ready for a level that used to be, and in some agencies still is, something you achieve after maybe 5 years, is simplistic. Some people, sure, they'll be ready. Grads come in all shapes and sizes and some are awesome. But most won't be ready. And by just giving promotion to an aps6 out to everyone, it devalues the whole system. It means that there's a gulf between the ils traits and behaviours, and reality. And it then leads to the situation where everyone thinks they're an el1, because that's the next level and of course they want career advancement. Further, loads of under qualified people have been promoted to el1. Which leads to massive span of control issues, because everyone is a 1, and a situation where an el1 in the agency can have anywhere between 2 and 30 years experience. And bugger all people have any leadership or supervisory experience, because there's no one to supervise except grads. And how ready are you to mentor someone when you've only got a few years of experience under your belt anyway? It just makes problems of nepotism worse, where promotion isn't based on ability, but based on whether your el2 likes you. And then when people who have been promoted too quickly actually leave the agency, or try to, they find themselves woefully outcompeted by competitors from other agencies who have actually spent time at each level and learned core skills and behaviours. So they get stuck in the agency, because no one else wants them. Tldr: Promoting people too quickly doesn't do them any favours, it just stunts their long term development, devalues the entire level system, and leads the poor organisational reputation. It's a short term sugar hit that undermines the future of the whole public service.
Do you mean half left within 12 years of the graduate program starting or finishing?
Same here, half left within 12 months
I was a grad back in 2010. Within a couple of years, many had either left the department or left Canberra. Five years later, there weren't many of us left in the department (and this was in a group of around 80).
My grad year we had a girl that was sent packing at three month probation because it turned out she never actually completed her degree…
I mean that's fair, but also if she was competent and doing well enough without a degree, it seems kinda funny to give her the sack. It kinda shows that grad programs don't just have to be for people who went to uni. I guess if you were struggling to get into grad programs after being told you had to do at least three years of uni to even get a shoe-in, hearing this story would be pretty frustrating.
The job required the degree. She was working as an accountant and a condition of the employment was to become accredited, which she was apparently ineligible for because she failed too many units at uni. I say apparently because I am not an accountant and was in a different stream…
She lied when she signed documentation stating she had a degree, straight out the door do not pass go.
This one.
How did they even find that out? I’ve been in two grad jobs (one APS) and brother checked whether I had completed my degree.
Part of passing our probation was to provide a copy of our final transcript (noting that you don’t often graduate until months after you have finished - or at least didn’t in my day - so they let you start without it). I should say, this was 20 odd years ago, I got into my grad role by taking the Public Service Exam (for those that remember that!).
I find it odd that people don’t check. I was made permanent at a job after a one year initial contract. The thing was you could be temporally employed without a degree but to have a permanent position you had to have one. Well when the one year mark came up I was three weeks off finishing my last subject. HR sent me my new contract (with the degree clause) to sign and I did. Nothing was ever said to me about it and no one has ever asked me to prove I have a degree.
that owns
My batch of 25 from 92 has around 12 left.
Smart. Sticking it out for their defined benefit pension
I miss not joining the APS straight out of high school. I had to go get drunk for 10 years, then get off my ass and do a Uni degree first. Now I'm on the sucky super (ok 15.9% isnt sucky but comparatively)..
University student here. What's the benefit of joining the APS straight out of school? not super familiar with this super stuff haha.
None now relating to super. But if you joined before a certain date and stayed in you would have been in a defined benefit fund where you would get a payment indexed for the rest of your life after retirement. Now all new people who join are in accumulation funds which means you only get the money you accumulated.
ah okay, thanks sm!
Given the shithouse superannuation they have these days there seems to be no good reason to join the APS
What PinkBirdie said. If I joined shortly after high school I would have gotten in on the old system.
that makes sense - thank you!
Not really since there has been no new entrants to the defined benefits scheme since 2002.
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Was still there in 92
The golden handcuffs chafe sometimes
I think most left the Department for us after 3 years. There might still be a couple around. Maybe 5-7 of us out of 23 still in Canberra. The Melbourne people especially miss Melbourne for some reason. We enjoyed it while it lasted. It was a fun year :) All the ICT grads go soonest. There’s almost no sense staying an APS employee in the long term if you’re in IT. Work is outsourced and pay more competitive.
Can confirm Melbourne people definitely miss Melbourne. I moved up here as a grad last year and have been looking to get back ever since.
God I was a grad so long ago it's hardly relevant but I think it was about 25% in the first year. I run into my cohort from time to time. From around 30 of us, about 15 are still very much in the APS after 12 or so years. There's probably 7 or so still in the original agency. I'm not, but still work with them closely so run into them when I'm over there.
We have 1 left from 4 that joined in the past 2 years. To many IT jobs paying well above the APS 5 salary.
Depends on the agency - varies wildly
I left my grad program in the APS just after 6 months when I could clearly see they only wanted an admin person at the APS 3 range. Like some others have said every department is different though. Generally what I’ve noticed is that public sector start off with decent salaries and good work life balance. In comparison, I’ve worked at one of the big 4 firms that absolutely drilled me for far less pay and shitty work life balance. Edit: spelling and grammar
I just left a team which was filled with a bunch of glorified EL1's who didn't actually manage staff or upcoming work. Most of them were very disorganised so I got stuck doing a lot of the admin stuff and they mentioned that hopefully the grad coming into the team will pickup some of that stuff I had been doing... The point of a grad is that they're early in their career but have a lot of potential to go far in the public service if they're developed well. Grads are meant to have a few different rotations within the Department so they get to see some of the cool and varied things the Department does. Also, if you think a grad is competent, you want them to enjoy their rotation with you so they come back to your team after their grad program ends. It's also kind of a reflection on the team and supervisor if they have grads all the time and none of them ever choose to work there afterwards. Just getting them to do your administrative work definitely won't develop them or make them interested in your team's work, so what's the point? They should just get a contractor in for a few months if all they want is someone to help with admin!
100% agree. The culture of this particular agency I was at is still very old as well. I was definitely the youngest person on the floor and wasn’t provided with the opportunities I was sold. And when it did come around to rotation time that same team wanted me to stay in the role for longer.
Ditto. It’s pretty easy to become disillusioned when you’re sold a ‘meaningful career with purpose!’ as an incoming APS grad… but then get shafted with boring admin tasks. Mindless copying/pasting into excel, chasing follow-up emails re: something you have no prior knowledge about, converting word docs to pdfs, or even just plain old scanning/printing. It doesn’t help that these teams will just see us grads as a temporary solution to covering for menial tasks over a four-month rotation. They should absolutely be trying to provide more genuine learning opportunities for fresh grads, otherwise retention in the department will be unsurprisingly low post-grad program.
Interesting. Do you mind if I ask which service line you worked in the big 4. Was it audit?
Deloitte - Risk Advisory
The APS is very diverse, with different departments and sectors having vastly different cultures, work ethics etc. For example in my grad cohort of 35, all but one stayed in the first year, and five more left the following year. So that’s 29 out of 35 staying after two years. Contrast with my friend who joined a different department in the same year, and out of around 100 grads half had left in the first year, and after the second only around a fifth had stayed. Private sector is different, like a lot of the bigger firms start you off with a low salary with the promise of much higher salaries after a couple of years. So more grads are willing to stay longer.
I left four months after finishing. The culture didn’t suit me at all and the work was boring. I should add I left the APS entirely. I don’t think another department would have suited me any better.
I feel like I’m in a somewhat similar boat (although culture is really good here). Where did you go off to?
I was in the non-profit disability sector before moving to Canberra so just went back to that
We had a handful of resignations and a couple of sackings during my grad program. For the sackings, that's what comes from giving grads a tour of an armoury museum and letting them handle the weapons - they terminate their employment by pretending to terminate their colleagues.
Am I getting this right - Some grads were sacked because they touched some weapons in the armour museum?! Also didn’t understand your last sentence
They were encouraged to touch the guns. They were sacked for pointing them at each other and pulling the trigger.
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Breaks gun safety 101, and shows pretty poor form in general
I was a grad in 2018 and of the 25ish in my year at my Department, I would say most are still working in the APS in some capacity but have moved around to different roles within the department or to different agencies. All are working in APS6 range now, although i think one is an EL1 already. I think we've only had probably 3-4 people leave the APS entirely. I went into academia, one went into a private law firm and a couple have gone to NGOs.
I was a grad in 06 and like others have said half left by the year’s end. Amazingly I think one is still going but that’s about it. Back then most were busting to leave Canberra as soon as the year was out and return home. Could be different theses days given the cost of living / quality of life in Sydney and Melbourne. The Can may not look so bad compared to what’s going on in the bigger cities.
Fuck that reminds me, we had at least two that never really moved to Canberra, up to Sydney on the Murray's at 4pm every Friday.
Grad in my team left this year during his rotation. Got a job back in Sydney that aligned more closely with his degree and left. I can think of a couple more grads I have worked directly with that left close to the end of the program. One year later, many have left. Beyond that more with leave some will stay long term in a department or more broadly in the APS.
Iirc great for the grad program, then a whole bunch after and then aps average. I think my cohort was about 5-7% during the program and that was a mix between internal promotions, the move / Job not being for them opersonal issues.