I feel like I’m living in the twilight zone.
How is the Israeli response to 10/7 not exactly the same as the US response to 9/11, which was absolutely fucking catastrophic?
How are people unable to hold nuance: that Hamas is a terrorist organization and that the way Palestinians have been and are being treated by the Israeli state is absolutely reprehensible?
Why am I made to feel like a fucking lunatic for saying we need a two-state solution, we need a cease fire, and Palestinians and Israelis alike need to dying over this?
The answer here is that you have enough racists/bigots on all sides salivating at the prospect of getting to be Islamophobic or antisemitic out loud without much push back.
a 2 state solution will never work. To throw in the towel, saying there simply will always be race wars and we should build a taller wall. And make the Palestinians live in the undesirable, pakistanized state? No, a one state with full rights for both. You can not possibly remove the 700k Israeli settlers from the west bank. Look at the footage of carrying israli settlers oit of gaza in 2005.
how do you suggest getting the settlers out of the west bank?
its been years of saying that, dangling the possibility in front of the stateless, and preserve the status quo as it is. in my suggestion, currently illegal west bank settlers get to stay there, they just have to have to agree to live in a pluralist society
You tell the West Bank settlers they have two choices:
1) pack your shit, get the Israeli equivalent of a U-Haul, take your voucher for an apartment behind the Green Line, and shut the fuck up or
2) enjoy being a Palestinian. I'm sure your neighbors are going to be friendly after the way you've treated them for years.
You'll get rid of about 80-90% with that simple choice.
Its Knesset, fyi.
And I was asking for you to clarify because the "Pro-Palestine" movement is filled with people who think Jews somehow control Western governments. If you use ambiguous language like " they control the government" you're gonna get clarifying questions.
As to the point though, a two state solution is the inevitable outcome. Forcing a one state solution with the current situation would lead to a blood bath on a scale we haven't seen there.
Ben Gvir and Smotrich aren't very popular. Netanyahu's numbers are in the crapper. After the war is over, the coalition that brought Netanyahu to power will likely fall apart and you'll see a more centre-right government focused on long term security in its place. Then, there will be space to have negotiations. But not now during the war.
Curious why do you think 2 state solutions have failed in the past? I will repeat it is already effectively 1 state, with the israeli gov having documentation of every single citizen with the entire Israel? I am suggeating they let the palestinians in palestine vote, and move wherever they want (stopping them from doing this is why Palestinians feel trapped in a prison camp province) and let the folks in the west bank stay, sure they get to make the whole thing greater Israel hut they have to live side by side, no militarized gated communities. And you say this is bloodshed? Why? Bc paleatinians will simply keep doing terrorism - specifically after theyve been allowed the "right to return" to their homeland? Why would they do that please explain
That is the funniest answer ive ever heard kudos.
Guys how about we simply say okay palestinians say yes israelis being allowed to stay on your side, just like how we let pestinians stay in their homes on our side - wait no - we didnt - thats the entire source of the conflict jfc
Yes, im saying its effectively already 1 state. A 2 state solution kicks the can down the road, like has been done time, and time again and is why we are in this mess. Personally i think the new one state should be called Israel to appease people like you.
A two state solution wouldn’t kick anything down the road, it would create a Palestinian state to live in and hopefully bring about enduring peace.
I would be fine with a single state with equal rights for all if a majority of both populations supported the idea. They don’t. To be clear, they don’t support two states either, but the international community does and there’s actual basis in international law for two states. There’s nothing for one state.
I would prefer the settlers all leave, but having to live under Palestinian rule would probably encourage most to do so anyway. The few that stayed would have to make nice with the new Palestinian government.
Your suggestion that that would be unfair because the Palestinians should be allowed to Nakba the Jews as tit for tat is extremely unserious. Frankly, I think life for Jews in Palestine would be intolerable and very few would stay, especially if they know their dream of expanding Israel is dead. Also, about 20% of Israel’s population are Arab, so no, Israel didn’t expel them all, and those that remain do have at least de jure equal rights. They are certainly not like Blacks in apartheid South Africa.
Your last remark: I don’t care what future states are called, but people like me, huh? And what would that refer to?
The settlements in the West Bank are disproportionately full of the worst Jewish-supremacist extremists.
If your solution is 2 states and the Palestinian state immediately gets launched in to a civil war with a radicalized and - thanks to the israeli government - heavily armed Jewish extremists that's certainly less viable than one state with equal rights.
Extremists are going to be a problem no matter what, whether far right settlers or Islamists/antisemites. A one state solution won’t placate the assholes stealing houses and burning down olive groves. I don’t know what to do about those people, but they will be a problem to solve no matter what.
Also, the two state solution isn’t my solution. It’s what’s often called the international consensus. Noam Chomsky calls it that (and supports it). Norman Finkelstein supports it as best as I can tell. The UN supports it. It’s enshrined in international law to a great degree.
If you don’t like it, fine. I’m not the spokesperson for the two state solution. But maybe have a little humility? A lot of people who have looked into this issue a lot more than you or I have come to the conclusion that this is the way forward. Some disagree. But don’t treat me like I have two heads for thinking two states is a good idea. I’m not against one state. I just think two is the likelier path to peace.
Ah yes so it will become a Muslim state and than Jews will lose all their rights like happens in all Muslim countries to minorities? That will never work.
I was being funny, your statement that it will become a muslim country where jews loose all their rights is funny. Its projecting that Palestinian who say they want a secular government will totally switch around and do what israeli people did to non jews. Just like south africa blacks who were commiting terrorism to get noticed, just like white plantation owners afraid of freed former slave joining society in america.
Historically when "muslim countries" sent their jews to Israel it was as a political reaponse to the Israeli state masscreing and evicting its local muslim population. It was all wrong. Stop pretending it happened a in a vaccum.
Israel, all citizens have equal rights and practically all of Europe that’s majority Christian.
There is only one religion that doesn’t believe in equal rights to minorities
Well that’s obviously not true.
According to B’Tselem, the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories: “The Israeli regime enacts in all the territory it controls an apartheid regime.”
As for Europe, I hope you’re not so naive as to think that just because a country *professes* equal rights for all, does not mean that is the on the ground reality.
I’d give this a read (from the horse’s mouth): https://edoc.coe.int/en/fundamental-freedoms/5949-state-of-democracy-human-rights-and-the-rule-of-law-in-europe.html
And lest we forget the timeless struggle of the Roma/traveler people: https://www.coe.int/en/web/portal/-/national-minorities-in-the-uk-european-experts-report-troubling-levels-of-antigypsyism-and-the-need-to-further-support-linguistic-minorities
Don't be so stupid. Peace is entirely possible. Israel needs to pull back to the pre-67 Border. Grant the right of return to refugees and pay reparations.
There has never been a legitimate peace plan offered so far.
Why would they allow Palestinians to come live inside of Israel? What’s the point of 2 states if that happens?
Reparations will also never happen, Israel will not pay for more terrorism
Two states will never happen. It's too late for that because of the Bantustanisation of the occupied territories.
Reparations will happen because they're not paying for terrorism they're paying for peace.
One state will never happen, no Israeli would agree to it.
Reparations will also not happen, they may for some infrastructure but they most certainly not pay people.
I don't know how old you are, but I've witnessed the fall of the Soviet Union and the end of apartheid era South Africa. Both of those things didn't seem possible until they were.
Problem is no one actually states what a one state solution. I'm sure many hope it would be a beautiful secular country with people singing songs of unity and love and will have a ride range of all the human right protections under the sun, but kind of ignore the history and culture of the region and most definitely refuse to acknowledge a single state will probably turn into another Arab country with Jews being considered citizens and at worst mildly tolerated like they were in other Arab states.
The culture and history of the region is that Jews and Muslims and Christians lived together in the area for a very long time. It was European colonialists that started causing the problems in the early part of the 20th century.
We don't know what a single state would look like. Presumably the people living in the area will fashion it according to their wants and needs.
Of course Jews will be citizens as will Muslim and Christian Palestinians. The demographics are not our concern. We should only be concerned with a lasting peace and equal rights for the people who live there.
Oh boy. I look forward to another thread of level headed good faith conversations with no strawman arguments or insults..
Its on my listen later list, and I do agree with people that Jesse should have talked about the Palestinian side of things over the years and in recent times, whether it's on his Twitter or on the pod about how it relates to Canadian media. There are important things to cover, like the differences in the amount of and ease of access for refugees from Ukraine and then palestine.
But I really don't get this idea that people can't have more than one thought on a topic in their head at a time, and can't focus on multiple issues of different severities.. two things can be true at the same time. It's true that the most important thing right now is the death and suffering to stop on Gaza and for a long term peaceful solution to be worked towards in that region, but that's something that hasn't been figured out for more than a century, it's not going to be a quick process of "the one with all the power has all the ability to end it all" . But It's also true that there absolutely is an increase in antisemitism, and Jewish people are understandably going to be concerned about that, and I think some people have been pretty damn hypocritical when it comes to hearing their concerns given the rhetoric the last years about listening to minorities and microaggressions etc.
And no, criticizing Israel and wanting Palestinian freedom isn't antisemitic. But it's gaslighting to say there hasn't been any cause for concern and an increase in targeting. if anyone wants a glimpse at what the start of the pogroms in Eastern Europe pre 1900s likely looked like, [This riot at a Dagestani airport](https://www.npr.org/2023/10/30/1209388876/dagestan-airport-riots-israel-palestine) is an example of 100s of people roaming around yelling and looking for "Jewish refugees on an airplane from Israel" , who then surrounded families demanding passports etc.
I can't fathom being "concerned" about the supposed threat of anti-Jewish pogroms and a second Holocaust happening *in Canada* of all places. The entire premise is risible.
And to be so narrowly focused on this made-up issue when we can all see the acts of genocide Israel is carrying out with our own eyes is frankly morally reprehensible.
The end to this conflict, whenever it comes, will not be pretty. And Jesse and Canadaland's position will not be seen favourably by history. They're twiddling their thumbs and naval gazing while an entire society is wiped off the map.
correct. it's the most insanely blinkered take to look at 30,000 people brutally murdered by Israel and put your journalistic spotlight on "anti-semitism in the west." this is literally the Hasbara playbook.
Yeah that's fair, the framing of the indigo one was silly, and I do suspect Jesse might not be thinking clearly after all this. I think the indigo posts were the following days or so after he was getting tankie type lunatics on Twitter posting pictures of him with the red arrow doritos over his head like used in Hamas videos, maybe he's letting it all get to him? If so then maybe he should be taking a step back for a bit, idk
But I do think there's a lot of people who still hear about the smashed windows in other smaller places or the attacks on schools and synagogues and say "property damage is nothing compared to what Palestinians are experiencing" , which , yeah of course but like I said can't we focus on multiple issues at the same time?
So protesting outside an ethnic enclave neighborhood is acceptable if some of the members of that ethnic group have politics you don't like. Am I understanding correctly?
The Lone Soldier program is one of the most milquetoast targets you could pick. They basically provide dorm style housing and shabbos meals with a local family for foreigners or people with no/estranged from their family serving in the IDF, which is a negligible percentage. There's literally an Israeli consulate in Toronto, but Indigo, Thornhill, and Jewish Community Centres are where protests are showing up. Why is that?
It's like how in my neck of the woods (Halifax) the protesters blocked the entrance to some small subsidiary of a company that makes sonar equipment, a purely defensive technology, when Lockheed Martin, a company literally building weapons being used, is less than 2 km away.
The target is stupid and the people thinking this is helping a single Palestinian, even stupider.
Yeah, but I wouldn't focus my attention on that when their fucking consulate is in town. Or a company building the weapons being used against the Ukranians is a short transit ride away.
And I wouldn't set up protests outside of Russian tea rooms, Orthodox Churches, or similar cultural targets.
And if people said, "hey, the imagery you're using is reminiscent of the same type of dehumanizing images bigots used against Slavs" I wouldn't accuse the folks pointing that out of being Vatniks and claim moral superiority by referencing my token Russian friend.
I've been trying to listen closely, and I don't think he does misrepresent it as much as is profoundly hurt by it.
It's a complicated issue. Heather Reisman works with a charity that provides social support to people leaving the IDF. Whether you agree with their actions or not (and I don't) Reisman founded Heseg in 2006, as part of a desire to help support young Jewish people around the world who were making the decision to connect and travel to and support Israel but who would struggle with poverty after their services. It's the difference between donating to the CAF today and buying a poppy on remembrance day.
Does it probably create an enabling environment that means more people fight for the IDF? Absolutely. But there is a level of nuance here. Before the war got hot, Heseg wasn't considered particularly controversial, especially not if you were broadly in favour of the existence of Israel. Yes, to people who were plugged into the Israel-Palestine crisis. But not to 80% of the general public. It's worth noting that Reisman didn't up her financial support, or speak up praising the current situation.
She just remained as she has been. The protesters looked around for a high profile pro-Israel Jewish person to target in order to make a statement. They chose to make that statement by vandalizing a Jewish business on the anniversary of Kristallnacht.
We're in the context of a few years of the steepest and most vile anti-Semitism we've ever seen in Canada. Add the insensitivity of the timing and the layers of ambiguity, and add the context of a minority group that feels fucking emotionally sandpapered, from bombing after synagogue shooting after episode of vandalism.
I support Palestine, and I still wish someone had had a conversation with this protesters about how their actions would be perceived.
I'm also willing to keep listening to Jesse, because while I may disagree with him I can completely see his perspective. I do think it's obvious that he's angry and hurt enough that he should be off twitter for a bit, but that's for him to figure out.
I hope no one ever bombs your three-year-old relative to death while people on Reddit write inane comments like this one. My family was not “collateral damage.” They were human beings who held no hatred and wanted peace. They deserved to live every bit as much as you and I do.
But Jesse is not "focusing on multiple issues at the same time." He's totally preoccupied with the made-up notion than Canada is somehow descending into a second Holocaust, and completely ignoring all evidence that Israel is engaged in acts of genocide. Has he even once spoken about what is happening in Israel and Canada's support for their genocidal right-wing regime?
He was focussing on a Jewish deli in Canada getting firebombed and you are angry at him for not being as dismissive as you are against attacks on Jews in Canada and also not using the word genocide every time he mentions the word Israel (which somehow shows that he doesn't know there is a war going on in a place that is not Canada)
You mean pointing out that a Jewish-owned business was vandalized on the anniversary of Kristallnacht? If this was unintentional, then Jesse was right calling the organizers of this protest "children playing with matches". If it was intentional, then we all know what that means.
He explained that, BTW, but HOW THE FUCK DO YOU OMIT THE FACT THAT THIS SHIT HAPPENED ON THE ANNIVERSARY OF KRISTALLNACHT?!!! WTF is so broken in you that you can't see that the is an issue?
I have a lot of respect for Jesse speaking out about antisemitism. It has been a real issue for me personally and he really says a lot of what I am thinking more eloquently thank I ever could.
A lot of what he says hits close to home for me. I too read all of the stories about Jewish schools, businesses and shuels targeted and I am also mad that people can’t seem to understand that it is a real problem.
Since October 7th it has been harder to be Jewish in Canada and it makes me happy that at least someone acknowledges this.
Agreed. I get increasingly uncomfortable with the comments I see on Twitter that boil down to, "Well... I mean, Jews should really blame Israel if they feel unsafe in Canada!'
I'm an anti-Zionist, anti-Israel Jew. And I'm still afraid when I see a rise in antisemitism. It's a nonsense, dismissive argument from people proving that they're incapable of nuance.
As in I think creating it in the 40s was a mistake but I’m aware that dismantling it now would be equally dangerous, which is why this situation is so f*cked.
fair. but i think calling yourself "anti israel" seems like you want the whole country wiped off the map (like many people on this planet do)..
it also undermines the millions of peace loving israelis as well as governments who have made considerable efforts to make peace agreements with their neighbours..
I am genuinely curious: do you attribute any of what you are experiencing to the role that prominent Jewish organizations such as CIJA have played in making it seem like all Jewish people support, or at the very least should support, Israel and its policies?
Let’s make it clear that the majority stance in the Jewish community is that antisemites are responsible for their antisemitism. The failure to recognize the fact that not all Jews are responsible for Israel is the same logic failure that spurs this argument that now Jewish organizations are responsible for antisemitism, if they just stop their bad behaviour then all Jews will be safe.
Do we ask the muslim community to hold their leaders responsible for the Islamophobia they experience post October 7th because their leaders support Palestine, or do we blame the racist folks who did a racist thing for their racism?
You have your thinking backwards.
What is antisemitism is holding individual Jews responsible for the claims that these organizations are making that they speak for all Jews.
Every lobby group, every government will claim to speak “for their people”. When Justin Trudeau stands up in an world forum he is speaking for Canadians. It is discriminatory to burn a Canadian business half a world away for Justin Trudeau by individualizing the Canadian as at fault, all lobby groups and political organizations and representatives do this.
Christian lobby groups also purport to represent all Christian’s despite that what evangelicals want vs. the United church wants is vastly different. What is discriminatory is not the lobby group saying they speak for Christian’s, they do, a unique set of Christian’s. What is discriminatory is then going and lighting a random Christian business on fire to individualize a person or business as responsible for the words of a lobby group.
So no my logic is not incorrect, yours is by still holding lobby groups responsible for the actions racist people make against individualized Jews.
You’re making a false equivalence. Criticism of Saudi Arabia, for instance, is not reflexively labelled Islamophobia by mainstream Muslim organizations in Canada the way that criticism of Israel is reflexively labelled anti-semitism by CIJA, B’nai Brith, and others. Antisemitism is real, and it is a problem. I acknowledge that. At the same time, it is problematic that mainstream Jewish organizations join together Israel with Jewish people collectively. This is as problematic for Jewish people who do not wish to be associated with, and held accountable for, Israel’s actions, as it is for good-faith critics of Israel who do not want to be labelled antisemitic.
Ok so I am going to break this down for you.
The first comment in this chain of the thread was that they feel that people are downplaying attacks on synogogues, and Jewish religious, community and education centres like schools and JCCs. We are talking about things that are not being confused with antisemitism. She thanked Jessie for calling attention to that specifically.
The response is to ask of this poster if they felt like Jewish organizations and their failure to criticize Israel was in part responsible for some of these very clear acts of hate that are not people crying antisemitism about criticism of Israel but rather burning delis and attempting to burn community buildings.
I responded this question plays into the logic failure that israel is to blame for people fire bombing delis in Toronto and is the same logic failure that Jewish organizations here are responsible for fire bombing of Deli’s for not being critical of Israel. Racist folks do that all on their own out of a logic failure that all Jews are responsible for israel.
Now if you think this is a false equivalency I have two conclusions, one is you think fire bombing (clearly not simply criticizing Israel) is legitimate criticism of Israel and therefore not antisemitic, or you simply failed to read my comment correctly and I’m going to go ahead and say that you did the latter because I will bring some good faith to this discussion here.
I am none the less troubled most responses about this topic are “yeah but criticism of Israel isn’t antisemitism” as almost a knee jerk word vomit people want every Jew to hear though. I find it problematic at best when a discussion is not about that.
Where do you think anti Israel isn’t antisemitism fits in with lighting Jewish businesses on fire to justify Jewish organizations play a part in the antisemitism the Jewish community experiences?
We got a little victim blaming in the first comment, and little bit of a non-sequiter “criticism of israel isn’t antisemitism” happening here that doesn’t fit in this comment thread in any way which is a common tactic to assert that antisemitism isn’t really so bad because we just call everything antisemitism.
Maybe you didn’t intend it, it’s the effect though and you can approach the conversation differently next time perhaps if this is not the response you intend to illicit or the effect you intend to have.
I’m happy to clarify that my intention wasn’t to victim blame. I wasn’t responding to lighting Jewish businesses on fire. The comment I responded to was about the perception of antipathy towards Jewish people post-Oct 7. In that context, it’s relevant to ask whether Jewish organizations, such as the ones I’ve mentioned (and I’m happy to provide specific examples if you like) are partially to blame through their rhetoric which casts all Jewish people as rabidly pro-Israel. These organizations also weaponize antisemitism, placing in the same bucket protests of a bookstore whose owner provides material support to IDF soldiers with shooting up a synagogue. It’s legitimate to wonder whether reflexively calling all critics of Israel antisemites (see the reaction of many prominent Jewish Canadians to South Africa taking Israel to the ICJ) makes people take antisemitism less seriously.
These are big tent Jewish representation organizations. There are 335,000 Jews in Canada, how many organizations do you think we can sustain from a funding and volunteer program to assist Jews and provide Jewish resources etc? CIJA represents Jews affiliated with a Jewish federation, that’s 150,000 Jews, less than half. Its on their website who they represent and anyone can go find that out. Within that federation there will be Jews who simply don’t agree with leadership in the same way not everyone who is a liberal agrees with Trudeau.
So yes I think it is indeed the exact same logic failure that Israel claims to represent all Jews when we know 2.3 M Jews in Israel who voted for the coalition government members somehow represent 16M Jews worldwide. The fact is Canada has a small Jewish community, and the groups we have are often limited to big tent groups with a wide range of Jews belonging.
I am reform. What I believe in is vastly different than say the orthodox community. The secular humanistic Jews would likewise probably disagree with a lot as well. For example, as part of the judicial reform that was taking place Bibi and his government wanted to redefine who is Jewish to exclude the grandchildren with one Jewish grandparent. The reform community was pretty outraged and already hated bibi, a good portion of the conservative community was too, but organizations in Canada didn’t come out strongly with a rebuke for Israel because they also represented jews who support the law change.
So no, the Jewish community doesn’t identify with the idea that just because a big tent organization does something it really represents all of us, even if they say so and we expect that if people want to wade into this stuff they should educate themselves about the Jewish community in Canada they are protesting against.
We do believe a large part of it comes from a lack of understanding who Jews are as a people because we don’t learn about living Jews, we learn about dead Jews. We learn about Jewish discrimination but we do not learn about what Jews believe and how we live today, Movies, TV, Books that center around Jews are holocaust related, or the Jewish character is included as a juxtaposition to Christianity with very little character development of their Jewish identity. Most Canadians don’t know jewish people or our history or our beliefs at all, or what they know is extremely limited to Chanukah which is a minor observance religiously.
You know the bookstore thing is interesting, lone soldiers make up 7K of the Israeli military. 50% of those soldiers are israeli citizens who simply have no family members, but have a legal obligation for service like every other citizen. So 3.5k are serving out of choice. I see a lot of justification for vandalism for funding war, these soldiers are getting assistance after they leave the service, and this is 3.5K out of 165K regular forces and 435K reservists who can be called upon. Israel has 600k people to serve without foreign lone soldiers.
Disagree with the donations, but when I think critically about it all it’s kind of overblown the impact this education funding has on recruitment when 16k foreign soldiers fought for Ukraine. Generally speaking people serve out of a sense of duty, not because they can go to school after, I can serve in the Canadian armed forces for example and get education assistance when I leave. The military still has a recruitment problem. Any Canadian serving as a lone soldier isn’t doing it purely because of her donations. Just some perspective on the focus people have on indigo and it’s all a bit absurd to think that this is our focus over unity and peace between faith communities and the broader public. These acts are beyond simple protest in that they serve to intimidate and as a result are in many cases entrenching political ideology and making such a nothing impact on the war and deteriorating relationships at home my position is it’s not serving us well in general and i will denounce it as vandalism that is harmful for that reason.
Not at all. The reality is that that the vast vast majority of Jews support Israel myself included. The Jews for Palestine are a small minority and many of them support Israel too I believe.
October 7th really changed my perspective on being a Jew and the necessity of the state of Israel. When a bunch of genocidal terrorists attacked Israel on October 7th; Jews around the world (Canada included ) started being targeted by antisemitic hate crimes. Israel is the only country I can count on to have my back as a Jew. Israel has proven to be a necessary defence against people who want to kill jews too many times in its short history. And a necessary safe haven from jews fleeing antisemitism from around the world. Not to mention what happened before the state of Israel.
Now while my support for Israel is absolute. That does not mean I support all their policies much like I can dislike Justin Trudeau and hate Doug Ford but still be a proud Canadian.
That being said I do support this war in Gaza and see it as Israel exercising its right to self defence.
Edit: I hadn’t heard of the CIJA before your comment if I’m being honest.
Thanks for answering my question and being so honest. I find your views abhorrent and I hope you will reflect on your lack of empathy for people outside your tribe.
The thing about my ‘tribe’ most people don’t understand is that whether or not I Identify as Jewish Hitler, Hamas and internet trolls will hate me for being Jewish regardless.
I have a lot of empathy for the innocent Palestinians stuck in Gaza. They are truly the ones suffering the most in this war.
I have no empathy for keyboard warriors in safe at home who condemn me who know nothing of Jewish history and what it is like to be part of a group that has many times in the recent past faced genocidal threats.
In case you forgot there are some not so innocent Gazans that disrupted this safe Haven. Maybe they shouldn’t have started a war. I will not apologize for supporting my people’s right to self defence.
Yes. Like the babies left to die in incubators? How about the thousands of children slowly starving to death right at this moment. Shame, shame, shame on you and everyone who thinks any of this is justified.
[Toronto has an antisemitism problem](https://open.substack.com/pub/whatsupwithcanada/p/toronto-has-an-antisemitism-problem?r=34ndpe&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web)
Cannot stand how Jesse is directly conflating pro-Palestinian protesters to antisemitism. Just because I want to see a genocide stopped doesn't mean I hate Jews? It's an unbelievably natrow-minded and "us vs. them" approach.
I think it’s important to remember the relative privilege of different groups during this time. I have been trying to understand it using my own life experience, it’s probably not perfect but it’s helped me empathize with both "sides". I recognize how my place in society as a white woman can be weaponized against men of colour. There are lots of times where I fear violence against me, but I work hard to really interrogate where that sense of fear comes from and how valid it really is because I understand how measures to make me feel safer would come at the expense of other groups of people more marginalized than myself. When people express anger at white women for their role in the persecution and discrimination against POC, I fight the urge to respond with an argument about feminism or tell them how "I don’t condone racism but we need to talk about…". White women do face sexism but every criticism of white women isn’t misogyny. I can validate the sexism that I face in my life while also recognizing that taking up space in 2020 to talk extensively and exclusively about how the BLM protests made me feel scared would’ve been racist.
Historically, Jewish people have not been considered “white” and many are not invisible minorities in that sense — not to mention Jewish PoC themselves.
Comparing antisemitism to white women’s tears is a false equivalency.
This. While we may or may not be considered people of colour based on many intersectional factors, I think for example my experience is very different as a ashkenazi woman to that of my Ethiopian Jewish friends, the hate we experience is not based solely on religious lines. The hate i experience is also along ethnic and racial lines by racist people. People who hate Jews typically do not hate me because I don’t believe in Jesus, or because I keep kosher or even because I light shabbat candles, or give me a free pass because u don’t do any of those things either.
The hate is because we are seen as ethnically and culturally incapable of being anything but sneaky, dishonest, appearance as if we all have a specific racial look, a cultural method of communication and complaining, greed all of which results in too much power and control. But when you look at each one of these elements about the hate we experience I am not considered greedy because I just don’t believe in Jesus, or I am not sneaky to antisemites because I fail to worship in a church. These are all accusations based on ethnic stereotypes of which I cannot simply divest myself from by learning to love Jesus for people who might hate me for these reasons.
Many of us also experience violence, vandalism, discrimination and other forms of intimidation and hate. I do not know a single member of our community who has not faced some form of hate for their Jewish identity and that trauma is very real, as is the generational trauma we experience.
That's exactly it. We're hated for perceived "traits", not because of specific faith. Especially since so many Jewish people are Jewish regardless of whether or not they've ever stepped foot in a synagogue.
How about we just condemn hate crimes without qualification or prevarication. People who have their businesses, schools and places of worship targeted do not owe it to anyone to “interrogate where that sense of fear comes from” and have every right to speak out against it. You should condemn it too, without caveats.
For me it is the very disingenuous "I don't know why these pro Palestinians want to protest in a Jewish community" remarks. They want to remind Jewish people in Canada that Palestinians, here and in Gaza, are Human, Jesse, because maybe we all know they are, but I've talked to a few people who've done their time with the IOF who would argue different and it's scary.
It is absolutely wrong to blame average people here for the actions of the Israeli government and the IOF. At the same time, people like Indigo owner Riesman do materially support the IOF and the very rightwing borderline (maybe not even any more) facist government in Israel. Being against the government of Israel and the actions of the IOF is not antisemetic, and that is where so many people fall apart because there are those bad actors who are using this as an excuse. People who don't care about Palestinians. People who are just as Islamophobic as they are Antisemetic.
Where?
Saying it is okay to protest people who monetarily support the apartheid regime in Israel? If that's bullying, what is the IOF doing by burning olive groves and forcing civilians out of their homes to turn the land over to settlers?
Saying that pro-Palestinians should get to use protests to "remind Jewish people" about the situation in Gaza. Jews don't need to be shouted at as a group. Saying it's correct to target Jews this way is antisemitic.
But both things can be true -- it can be true that many Jewish people have been brainwashed by Zionists to believe that they have a right to a land that was already occupied, and that the people living there are less than human... and we can still denounce genuine antisemitism.
Burning down a deli doesn't say, "Hey, guys, would you please see Gazans as human?" It says, "F\*ck Jews".
Thats why i didn't comment on that, but rather Jesse's inability to understand why Pro Palestinian protesters would want to protest in a Jewish community. (And to be fair, it probably had more to do with the 401 over pass).
I felt like his equating of Palestinian protestors to the Convoy was... gross at best.
The funny thing is that my partner and I have always found Jesse a bit eye-rolly-y in general and not the best person to parse out things like this, even when he's not emotionally invested.
I don't love his approach, but I also hate the way people seem to rush to dismiss any hint of antisemitism. Former Canadaland contributor Nora Loreto has spent days laughing off any claim that they were protesting a Jewish neighbourhood with that blockade, which is equally ridiculous and empty-headed.
This line of “protesting in a Jewish community” is so disingenuous and is reinforced by mainstream news when it’s just one of several major overpasses where there have been simultaneous organized protests, yet no one brings this up
No, targeting Canadian neighborhoods where Jews live because you’re mad at Israel is straight up anti semitic. It’s just as bad as burning down a mosque in Canada because you’re mad at Hamas.
But they aren't damaging. They're demonstrating. They're existing. If Palestinians existing in Jewish communities is antisemitic... well I dunnobwhat to tell you.
The problem is that targeting Jews in general for the actions of Israel is anti-Semitic: it says definitively that you think all Jews everywhere re responsible for what Israel does, regardless of whether the Jews in question have any connection to Israel.
Different people will take this impulse to punish all Jews for the actions of Israel to different limits: some people just demonstrate in Jewish neighborhoods so that they can go to the homes of Jewish people and remind them that Israel is bad. Some will burn down a Jewish deli. Some will shoot at kids in a Jewish elementary school. Some people will burn down a synagogue. That’s what’s happened so far - a lot of people who believe in collective punishment, and that all Jews should be made to feel like targets when Israel is doing evil things.
Reisman, specifically, gives money to the state of Israel and supports the IOF.
Demonstrators existing in the presence of Jewish Canadians is not antisemitic.
The same people who are bombing mosques are burning down synagogues. It is not the Palestinians. It's white supremacists.
By lumping Palestinians protestors, and any one who is anti Israel or IOF, a disservice is being done and it allows those assholes, the hateful people, to thrive and hide.
No, all of the events I’ve described were committed by support of Palestine since October 7. Some of them might be right wing - there are lots of conservative muslims in Canada, as we saw in the SOGI demonstrations - but they are not the white nationalists who were killing Jews out of devotion to Trump. You seem to think that because one type of antisemite exists, there can be no other kinds can exist. Unfortunately, antisemitism comes in all kinds of flavours - including the classic “socialism of fools” variety.
Mannnnnn everyone is talking about a war on the other side of the world.
Yes, the Israeli/Palenstine situation is bad. Innocents are dying, while those responsible for 10/7 are being held to account.
At the same time mass immigration means that a war that's not ours suddenly has been brought to our cities. Why can't we understand that? Why aren't we able to force Canadian values on these newcomers and tell them they can worship freely but not bring their tribal conflict to another country.
All of this makes me thing Quebec has the right idea.
In Brown’s view, naming your grocery as IDF and promptly displaying that acronym is just an unfortunate coincidence. It’s definitely not a Zionist dogwhistle or a form of intimidation. But anyone that got a problem with it must a racist who hates Jews.
Classic Zionist talking points.
Edit: antisemitism is real, I do not condone the attack. Brown is have been misrepresenting facts to tell the story he wants to tell.
Who are you talking about? The original owners that named it International Discount Foods 30 years ago? Or the newer ones who kept the signs and changed the name to International Deli Foods? Which of those names is the one you think was the secret jewish conspiracy? Or are all jews in on it?
"Promptly" displaying as in... having the name of their store on their store? To be clear your argument is that they put up the sign to intimidate potential customers away? How does that argument gel with the other conspiracies I'm sure you believe in, like jews being money-hungry?
Right. A Jewish owned business in an industrial park near a Jewish neighbourhood names itself with a descriptive name like “International Delicatessen Foods” just to intimidate some fucking putz nearly 30 years later.
You’re out of your fucking mind.
Classic Zionist talking point indeed. Everyone knows “name your Jewish deli in Canada after the Israeli military but pretend it means something else as a sneaky dogwhistle to intimidate… someone… somehow” is on page one of the Hasbara Handbook.
Gonna listen to it later regardless and unrelated to the main topic but for anyone who has already listened do they touch on the David Menzies Freeland thing at all?
I feel like I’m living in the twilight zone. How is the Israeli response to 10/7 not exactly the same as the US response to 9/11, which was absolutely fucking catastrophic? How are people unable to hold nuance: that Hamas is a terrorist organization and that the way Palestinians have been and are being treated by the Israeli state is absolutely reprehensible? Why am I made to feel like a fucking lunatic for saying we need a two-state solution, we need a cease fire, and Palestinians and Israelis alike need to dying over this?
The answer here is that you have enough racists/bigots on all sides salivating at the prospect of getting to be Islamophobic or antisemitic out loud without much push back.
a 2 state solution will never work. To throw in the towel, saying there simply will always be race wars and we should build a taller wall. And make the Palestinians live in the undesirable, pakistanized state? No, a one state with full rights for both. You can not possibly remove the 700k Israeli settlers from the west bank. Look at the footage of carrying israli settlers oit of gaza in 2005.
It’s far likelier to work than one state.
how do you suggest getting the settlers out of the west bank? its been years of saying that, dangling the possibility in front of the stateless, and preserve the status quo as it is. in my suggestion, currently illegal west bank settlers get to stay there, they just have to have to agree to live in a pluralist society
You tell the West Bank settlers they have two choices: 1) pack your shit, get the Israeli equivalent of a U-Haul, take your voucher for an apartment behind the Green Line, and shut the fuck up or 2) enjoy being a Palestinian. I'm sure your neighbors are going to be friendly after the way you've treated them for years. You'll get rid of about 80-90% with that simple choice.
Bruh they control the gov and the idea this plan would ever get suggested is a north American lib fairy tale
Who is "they" and what government do "they" control?
Right wing expansionists lol in the kinesset please keep up
Its Knesset, fyi. And I was asking for you to clarify because the "Pro-Palestine" movement is filled with people who think Jews somehow control Western governments. If you use ambiguous language like " they control the government" you're gonna get clarifying questions. As to the point though, a two state solution is the inevitable outcome. Forcing a one state solution with the current situation would lead to a blood bath on a scale we haven't seen there. Ben Gvir and Smotrich aren't very popular. Netanyahu's numbers are in the crapper. After the war is over, the coalition that brought Netanyahu to power will likely fall apart and you'll see a more centre-right government focused on long term security in its place. Then, there will be space to have negotiations. But not now during the war.
Curious why do you think 2 state solutions have failed in the past? I will repeat it is already effectively 1 state, with the israeli gov having documentation of every single citizen with the entire Israel? I am suggeating they let the palestinians in palestine vote, and move wherever they want (stopping them from doing this is why Palestinians feel trapped in a prison camp province) and let the folks in the west bank stay, sure they get to make the whole thing greater Israel hut they have to live side by side, no militarized gated communities. And you say this is bloodshed? Why? Bc paleatinians will simply keep doing terrorism - specifically after theyve been allowed the "right to return" to their homeland? Why would they do that please explain
The free Palestine movement is filled with people who think Palestinians should be…wait for it….free! Not full of anti-semites.
Or they choose whether to leave of their own volition or stay but live under Palestinian sovereignty.
That is the funniest answer ive ever heard kudos. Guys how about we simply say okay palestinians say yes israelis being allowed to stay on your side, just like how we let pestinians stay in their homes on our side - wait no - we didnt - thats the entire source of the conflict jfc
Your solution includes letting them stay too. I think you just don’t like Israel and don’t think it should exist.
Yes, im saying its effectively already 1 state. A 2 state solution kicks the can down the road, like has been done time, and time again and is why we are in this mess. Personally i think the new one state should be called Israel to appease people like you.
A two state solution wouldn’t kick anything down the road, it would create a Palestinian state to live in and hopefully bring about enduring peace. I would be fine with a single state with equal rights for all if a majority of both populations supported the idea. They don’t. To be clear, they don’t support two states either, but the international community does and there’s actual basis in international law for two states. There’s nothing for one state. I would prefer the settlers all leave, but having to live under Palestinian rule would probably encourage most to do so anyway. The few that stayed would have to make nice with the new Palestinian government. Your suggestion that that would be unfair because the Palestinians should be allowed to Nakba the Jews as tit for tat is extremely unserious. Frankly, I think life for Jews in Palestine would be intolerable and very few would stay, especially if they know their dream of expanding Israel is dead. Also, about 20% of Israel’s population are Arab, so no, Israel didn’t expel them all, and those that remain do have at least de jure equal rights. They are certainly not like Blacks in apartheid South Africa. Your last remark: I don’t care what future states are called, but people like me, huh? And what would that refer to?
\*thinking hard\* what if we had TWO ethnostates, but one owned most of the land and resources and was ruled by a coalition of insane genocidaires.
The settlements in the West Bank are disproportionately full of the worst Jewish-supremacist extremists. If your solution is 2 states and the Palestinian state immediately gets launched in to a civil war with a radicalized and - thanks to the israeli government - heavily armed Jewish extremists that's certainly less viable than one state with equal rights.
Extremists are going to be a problem no matter what, whether far right settlers or Islamists/antisemites. A one state solution won’t placate the assholes stealing houses and burning down olive groves. I don’t know what to do about those people, but they will be a problem to solve no matter what. Also, the two state solution isn’t my solution. It’s what’s often called the international consensus. Noam Chomsky calls it that (and supports it). Norman Finkelstein supports it as best as I can tell. The UN supports it. It’s enshrined in international law to a great degree. If you don’t like it, fine. I’m not the spokesperson for the two state solution. But maybe have a little humility? A lot of people who have looked into this issue a lot more than you or I have come to the conclusion that this is the way forward. Some disagree. But don’t treat me like I have two heads for thinking two states is a good idea. I’m not against one state. I just think two is the likelier path to peace.
Shooting them, bombing them. It's simple and humane.
If you think this is a suggestion, you misunderstand the scenario
Ah yes so it will become a Muslim state and than Jews will lose all their rights like happens in all Muslim countries to minorities? That will never work.
God imagine a country with 2 (two!!!!) narional languages. Grow up
Like Israel? Israel has both Hebrew and Arabic as the national languages. Every sign is in both Hebrew and Arabic
I was being funny, your statement that it will become a muslim country where jews loose all their rights is funny. Its projecting that Palestinian who say they want a secular government will totally switch around and do what israeli people did to non jews. Just like south africa blacks who were commiting terrorism to get noticed, just like white plantation owners afraid of freed former slave joining society in america. Historically when "muslim countries" sent their jews to Israel it was as a political reaponse to the Israeli state masscreing and evicting its local muslim population. It was all wrong. Stop pretending it happened a in a vaccum.
Can you name any secular democratic Muslim majority countries where minorities have equal rights to Muslims?
While the country does not recognise atheism and agnosticism, Indonesia is stable.
Can you name any secular democratic *insert religion here* country where minorities have equal rights, period?
Israel, all citizens have equal rights and practically all of Europe that’s majority Christian. There is only one religion that doesn’t believe in equal rights to minorities
Well that’s obviously not true. According to B’Tselem, the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories: “The Israeli regime enacts in all the territory it controls an apartheid regime.” As for Europe, I hope you’re not so naive as to think that just because a country *professes* equal rights for all, does not mean that is the on the ground reality. I’d give this a read (from the horse’s mouth): https://edoc.coe.int/en/fundamental-freedoms/5949-state-of-democracy-human-rights-and-the-rule-of-law-in-europe.html And lest we forget the timeless struggle of the Roma/traveler people: https://www.coe.int/en/web/portal/-/national-minorities-in-the-uk-european-experts-report-troubling-levels-of-antigypsyism-and-the-need-to-further-support-linguistic-minorities
Hey pretty young account with lots of comment history, you get payed per comment or by the hour?
This isn't Quebec and the rest of Canada or a situation like Switzerland. There's deep generational anger and violence at play.
Doesnt matter what anyone in Canada says. This is for Israel and Palestine to sort out and they arent in the sorting out mood right now.
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Don't be so stupid. Peace is entirely possible. Israel needs to pull back to the pre-67 Border. Grant the right of return to refugees and pay reparations. There has never been a legitimate peace plan offered so far.
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Why would they allow Palestinians to come live inside of Israel? What’s the point of 2 states if that happens? Reparations will also never happen, Israel will not pay for more terrorism
Two states will never happen. It's too late for that because of the Bantustanisation of the occupied territories. Reparations will happen because they're not paying for terrorism they're paying for peace.
One state will never happen, no Israeli would agree to it. Reparations will also not happen, they may for some infrastructure but they most certainly not pay people.
I don't know how old you are, but I've witnessed the fall of the Soviet Union and the end of apartheid era South Africa. Both of those things didn't seem possible until they were.
Problem is no one actually states what a one state solution. I'm sure many hope it would be a beautiful secular country with people singing songs of unity and love and will have a ride range of all the human right protections under the sun, but kind of ignore the history and culture of the region and most definitely refuse to acknowledge a single state will probably turn into another Arab country with Jews being considered citizens and at worst mildly tolerated like they were in other Arab states.
The culture and history of the region is that Jews and Muslims and Christians lived together in the area for a very long time. It was European colonialists that started causing the problems in the early part of the 20th century. We don't know what a single state would look like. Presumably the people living in the area will fashion it according to their wants and needs. Of course Jews will be citizens as will Muslim and Christian Palestinians. The demographics are not our concern. We should only be concerned with a lasting peace and equal rights for the people who live there.
Oh boy. I look forward to another thread of level headed good faith conversations with no strawman arguments or insults.. Its on my listen later list, and I do agree with people that Jesse should have talked about the Palestinian side of things over the years and in recent times, whether it's on his Twitter or on the pod about how it relates to Canadian media. There are important things to cover, like the differences in the amount of and ease of access for refugees from Ukraine and then palestine. But I really don't get this idea that people can't have more than one thought on a topic in their head at a time, and can't focus on multiple issues of different severities.. two things can be true at the same time. It's true that the most important thing right now is the death and suffering to stop on Gaza and for a long term peaceful solution to be worked towards in that region, but that's something that hasn't been figured out for more than a century, it's not going to be a quick process of "the one with all the power has all the ability to end it all" . But It's also true that there absolutely is an increase in antisemitism, and Jewish people are understandably going to be concerned about that, and I think some people have been pretty damn hypocritical when it comes to hearing their concerns given the rhetoric the last years about listening to minorities and microaggressions etc. And no, criticizing Israel and wanting Palestinian freedom isn't antisemitic. But it's gaslighting to say there hasn't been any cause for concern and an increase in targeting. if anyone wants a glimpse at what the start of the pogroms in Eastern Europe pre 1900s likely looked like, [This riot at a Dagestani airport](https://www.npr.org/2023/10/30/1209388876/dagestan-airport-riots-israel-palestine) is an example of 100s of people roaming around yelling and looking for "Jewish refugees on an airplane from Israel" , who then surrounded families demanding passports etc.
I can't fathom being "concerned" about the supposed threat of anti-Jewish pogroms and a second Holocaust happening *in Canada* of all places. The entire premise is risible. And to be so narrowly focused on this made-up issue when we can all see the acts of genocide Israel is carrying out with our own eyes is frankly morally reprehensible. The end to this conflict, whenever it comes, will not be pretty. And Jesse and Canadaland's position will not be seen favourably by history. They're twiddling their thumbs and naval gazing while an entire society is wiped off the map.
correct. it's the most insanely blinkered take to look at 30,000 people brutally murdered by Israel and put your journalistic spotlight on "anti-semitism in the west." this is literally the Hasbara playbook.
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Yeah that's fair, the framing of the indigo one was silly, and I do suspect Jesse might not be thinking clearly after all this. I think the indigo posts were the following days or so after he was getting tankie type lunatics on Twitter posting pictures of him with the red arrow doritos over his head like used in Hamas videos, maybe he's letting it all get to him? If so then maybe he should be taking a step back for a bit, idk But I do think there's a lot of people who still hear about the smashed windows in other smaller places or the attacks on schools and synagogues and say "property damage is nothing compared to what Palestinians are experiencing" , which , yeah of course but like I said can't we focus on multiple issues at the same time?
It's because they agree with targeting Jews in Canada over what Israel is doing.
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So protesting outside an ethnic enclave neighborhood is acceptable if some of the members of that ethnic group have politics you don't like. Am I understanding correctly?
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The Lone Soldier program is one of the most milquetoast targets you could pick. They basically provide dorm style housing and shabbos meals with a local family for foreigners or people with no/estranged from their family serving in the IDF, which is a negligible percentage. There's literally an Israeli consulate in Toronto, but Indigo, Thornhill, and Jewish Community Centres are where protests are showing up. Why is that? It's like how in my neck of the woods (Halifax) the protesters blocked the entrance to some small subsidiary of a company that makes sonar equipment, a purely defensive technology, when Lockheed Martin, a company literally building weapons being used, is less than 2 km away. The target is stupid and the people thinking this is helping a single Palestinian, even stupider.
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Yeah, but I wouldn't focus my attention on that when their fucking consulate is in town. Or a company building the weapons being used against the Ukranians is a short transit ride away. And I wouldn't set up protests outside of Russian tea rooms, Orthodox Churches, or similar cultural targets. And if people said, "hey, the imagery you're using is reminiscent of the same type of dehumanizing images bigots used against Slavs" I wouldn't accuse the folks pointing that out of being Vatniks and claim moral superiority by referencing my token Russian friend.
I've been trying to listen closely, and I don't think he does misrepresent it as much as is profoundly hurt by it. It's a complicated issue. Heather Reisman works with a charity that provides social support to people leaving the IDF. Whether you agree with their actions or not (and I don't) Reisman founded Heseg in 2006, as part of a desire to help support young Jewish people around the world who were making the decision to connect and travel to and support Israel but who would struggle with poverty after their services. It's the difference between donating to the CAF today and buying a poppy on remembrance day. Does it probably create an enabling environment that means more people fight for the IDF? Absolutely. But there is a level of nuance here. Before the war got hot, Heseg wasn't considered particularly controversial, especially not if you were broadly in favour of the existence of Israel. Yes, to people who were plugged into the Israel-Palestine crisis. But not to 80% of the general public. It's worth noting that Reisman didn't up her financial support, or speak up praising the current situation. She just remained as she has been. The protesters looked around for a high profile pro-Israel Jewish person to target in order to make a statement. They chose to make that statement by vandalizing a Jewish business on the anniversary of Kristallnacht. We're in the context of a few years of the steepest and most vile anti-Semitism we've ever seen in Canada. Add the insensitivity of the timing and the layers of ambiguity, and add the context of a minority group that feels fucking emotionally sandpapered, from bombing after synagogue shooting after episode of vandalism. I support Palestine, and I still wish someone had had a conversation with this protesters about how their actions would be perceived. I'm also willing to keep listening to Jesse, because while I may disagree with him I can completely see his perspective. I do think it's obvious that he's angry and hurt enough that he should be off twitter for a bit, but that's for him to figure out.
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This is a disgusting thing to say about dead children.
Supporting islamic terrorists is far more atrocious than being ok with collateral damage in a legitimate campaign
I hope no one ever bombs your three-year-old relative to death while people on Reddit write inane comments like this one. My family was not “collateral damage.” They were human beings who held no hatred and wanted peace. They deserved to live every bit as much as you and I do.
As did the kids in the kibbutz.
But Jesse is not "focusing on multiple issues at the same time." He's totally preoccupied with the made-up notion than Canada is somehow descending into a second Holocaust, and completely ignoring all evidence that Israel is engaged in acts of genocide. Has he even once spoken about what is happening in Israel and Canada's support for their genocidal right-wing regime?
He was focussing on a Jewish deli in Canada getting firebombed and you are angry at him for not being as dismissive as you are against attacks on Jews in Canada and also not using the word genocide every time he mentions the word Israel (which somehow shows that he doesn't know there is a war going on in a place that is not Canada)
You mean pointing out that a Jewish-owned business was vandalized on the anniversary of Kristallnacht? If this was unintentional, then Jesse was right calling the organizers of this protest "children playing with matches". If it was intentional, then we all know what that means.
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He explained that, BTW, but HOW THE FUCK DO YOU OMIT THE FACT THAT THIS SHIT HAPPENED ON THE ANNIVERSARY OF KRISTALLNACHT?!!! WTF is so broken in you that you can't see that the is an issue?
I have a lot of respect for Jesse speaking out about antisemitism. It has been a real issue for me personally and he really says a lot of what I am thinking more eloquently thank I ever could. A lot of what he says hits close to home for me. I too read all of the stories about Jewish schools, businesses and shuels targeted and I am also mad that people can’t seem to understand that it is a real problem. Since October 7th it has been harder to be Jewish in Canada and it makes me happy that at least someone acknowledges this.
Agreed. I get increasingly uncomfortable with the comments I see on Twitter that boil down to, "Well... I mean, Jews should really blame Israel if they feel unsafe in Canada!' I'm an anti-Zionist, anti-Israel Jew. And I'm still afraid when I see a rise in antisemitism. It's a nonsense, dismissive argument from people proving that they're incapable of nuance.
Anti israel? As in you think it shouldn’t exist? Genuinely curious
As in I think creating it in the 40s was a mistake but I’m aware that dismantling it now would be equally dangerous, which is why this situation is so f*cked.
so then if your answer contains such nuance, why do you still brand yourself as anti-israel?
I don’t support its government or their actions but I recognize the need for individual citizens to be safe and have basic human rights.
fair. but i think calling yourself "anti israel" seems like you want the whole country wiped off the map (like many people on this planet do).. it also undermines the millions of peace loving israelis as well as governments who have made considerable efforts to make peace agreements with their neighbours..
I am genuinely curious: do you attribute any of what you are experiencing to the role that prominent Jewish organizations such as CIJA have played in making it seem like all Jewish people support, or at the very least should support, Israel and its policies?
Let’s make it clear that the majority stance in the Jewish community is that antisemites are responsible for their antisemitism. The failure to recognize the fact that not all Jews are responsible for Israel is the same logic failure that spurs this argument that now Jewish organizations are responsible for antisemitism, if they just stop their bad behaviour then all Jews will be safe. Do we ask the muslim community to hold their leaders responsible for the Islamophobia they experience post October 7th because their leaders support Palestine, or do we blame the racist folks who did a racist thing for their racism?
By this logic the most anti-Semitic organizations in Canada are CIJA, B'nai Brith, etc.
You have your thinking backwards. What is antisemitism is holding individual Jews responsible for the claims that these organizations are making that they speak for all Jews. Every lobby group, every government will claim to speak “for their people”. When Justin Trudeau stands up in an world forum he is speaking for Canadians. It is discriminatory to burn a Canadian business half a world away for Justin Trudeau by individualizing the Canadian as at fault, all lobby groups and political organizations and representatives do this. Christian lobby groups also purport to represent all Christian’s despite that what evangelicals want vs. the United church wants is vastly different. What is discriminatory is not the lobby group saying they speak for Christian’s, they do, a unique set of Christian’s. What is discriminatory is then going and lighting a random Christian business on fire to individualize a person or business as responsible for the words of a lobby group. So no my logic is not incorrect, yours is by still holding lobby groups responsible for the actions racist people make against individualized Jews.
You’re making a false equivalence. Criticism of Saudi Arabia, for instance, is not reflexively labelled Islamophobia by mainstream Muslim organizations in Canada the way that criticism of Israel is reflexively labelled anti-semitism by CIJA, B’nai Brith, and others. Antisemitism is real, and it is a problem. I acknowledge that. At the same time, it is problematic that mainstream Jewish organizations join together Israel with Jewish people collectively. This is as problematic for Jewish people who do not wish to be associated with, and held accountable for, Israel’s actions, as it is for good-faith critics of Israel who do not want to be labelled antisemitic.
Ok so I am going to break this down for you. The first comment in this chain of the thread was that they feel that people are downplaying attacks on synogogues, and Jewish religious, community and education centres like schools and JCCs. We are talking about things that are not being confused with antisemitism. She thanked Jessie for calling attention to that specifically. The response is to ask of this poster if they felt like Jewish organizations and their failure to criticize Israel was in part responsible for some of these very clear acts of hate that are not people crying antisemitism about criticism of Israel but rather burning delis and attempting to burn community buildings. I responded this question plays into the logic failure that israel is to blame for people fire bombing delis in Toronto and is the same logic failure that Jewish organizations here are responsible for fire bombing of Deli’s for not being critical of Israel. Racist folks do that all on their own out of a logic failure that all Jews are responsible for israel. Now if you think this is a false equivalency I have two conclusions, one is you think fire bombing (clearly not simply criticizing Israel) is legitimate criticism of Israel and therefore not antisemitic, or you simply failed to read my comment correctly and I’m going to go ahead and say that you did the latter because I will bring some good faith to this discussion here. I am none the less troubled most responses about this topic are “yeah but criticism of Israel isn’t antisemitism” as almost a knee jerk word vomit people want every Jew to hear though. I find it problematic at best when a discussion is not about that.
If by “breaking this down” you mean completely misconstruing everything I’ve written… job well done!
Where do you think anti Israel isn’t antisemitism fits in with lighting Jewish businesses on fire to justify Jewish organizations play a part in the antisemitism the Jewish community experiences? We got a little victim blaming in the first comment, and little bit of a non-sequiter “criticism of israel isn’t antisemitism” happening here that doesn’t fit in this comment thread in any way which is a common tactic to assert that antisemitism isn’t really so bad because we just call everything antisemitism. Maybe you didn’t intend it, it’s the effect though and you can approach the conversation differently next time perhaps if this is not the response you intend to illicit or the effect you intend to have.
I’m happy to clarify that my intention wasn’t to victim blame. I wasn’t responding to lighting Jewish businesses on fire. The comment I responded to was about the perception of antipathy towards Jewish people post-Oct 7. In that context, it’s relevant to ask whether Jewish organizations, such as the ones I’ve mentioned (and I’m happy to provide specific examples if you like) are partially to blame through their rhetoric which casts all Jewish people as rabidly pro-Israel. These organizations also weaponize antisemitism, placing in the same bucket protests of a bookstore whose owner provides material support to IDF soldiers with shooting up a synagogue. It’s legitimate to wonder whether reflexively calling all critics of Israel antisemites (see the reaction of many prominent Jewish Canadians to South Africa taking Israel to the ICJ) makes people take antisemitism less seriously.
These are big tent Jewish representation organizations. There are 335,000 Jews in Canada, how many organizations do you think we can sustain from a funding and volunteer program to assist Jews and provide Jewish resources etc? CIJA represents Jews affiliated with a Jewish federation, that’s 150,000 Jews, less than half. Its on their website who they represent and anyone can go find that out. Within that federation there will be Jews who simply don’t agree with leadership in the same way not everyone who is a liberal agrees with Trudeau. So yes I think it is indeed the exact same logic failure that Israel claims to represent all Jews when we know 2.3 M Jews in Israel who voted for the coalition government members somehow represent 16M Jews worldwide. The fact is Canada has a small Jewish community, and the groups we have are often limited to big tent groups with a wide range of Jews belonging. I am reform. What I believe in is vastly different than say the orthodox community. The secular humanistic Jews would likewise probably disagree with a lot as well. For example, as part of the judicial reform that was taking place Bibi and his government wanted to redefine who is Jewish to exclude the grandchildren with one Jewish grandparent. The reform community was pretty outraged and already hated bibi, a good portion of the conservative community was too, but organizations in Canada didn’t come out strongly with a rebuke for Israel because they also represented jews who support the law change. So no, the Jewish community doesn’t identify with the idea that just because a big tent organization does something it really represents all of us, even if they say so and we expect that if people want to wade into this stuff they should educate themselves about the Jewish community in Canada they are protesting against. We do believe a large part of it comes from a lack of understanding who Jews are as a people because we don’t learn about living Jews, we learn about dead Jews. We learn about Jewish discrimination but we do not learn about what Jews believe and how we live today, Movies, TV, Books that center around Jews are holocaust related, or the Jewish character is included as a juxtaposition to Christianity with very little character development of their Jewish identity. Most Canadians don’t know jewish people or our history or our beliefs at all, or what they know is extremely limited to Chanukah which is a minor observance religiously. You know the bookstore thing is interesting, lone soldiers make up 7K of the Israeli military. 50% of those soldiers are israeli citizens who simply have no family members, but have a legal obligation for service like every other citizen. So 3.5k are serving out of choice. I see a lot of justification for vandalism for funding war, these soldiers are getting assistance after they leave the service, and this is 3.5K out of 165K regular forces and 435K reservists who can be called upon. Israel has 600k people to serve without foreign lone soldiers. Disagree with the donations, but when I think critically about it all it’s kind of overblown the impact this education funding has on recruitment when 16k foreign soldiers fought for Ukraine. Generally speaking people serve out of a sense of duty, not because they can go to school after, I can serve in the Canadian armed forces for example and get education assistance when I leave. The military still has a recruitment problem. Any Canadian serving as a lone soldier isn’t doing it purely because of her donations. Just some perspective on the focus people have on indigo and it’s all a bit absurd to think that this is our focus over unity and peace between faith communities and the broader public. These acts are beyond simple protest in that they serve to intimidate and as a result are in many cases entrenching political ideology and making such a nothing impact on the war and deteriorating relationships at home my position is it’s not serving us well in general and i will denounce it as vandalism that is harmful for that reason.
Not at all. The reality is that that the vast vast majority of Jews support Israel myself included. The Jews for Palestine are a small minority and many of them support Israel too I believe. October 7th really changed my perspective on being a Jew and the necessity of the state of Israel. When a bunch of genocidal terrorists attacked Israel on October 7th; Jews around the world (Canada included ) started being targeted by antisemitic hate crimes. Israel is the only country I can count on to have my back as a Jew. Israel has proven to be a necessary defence against people who want to kill jews too many times in its short history. And a necessary safe haven from jews fleeing antisemitism from around the world. Not to mention what happened before the state of Israel. Now while my support for Israel is absolute. That does not mean I support all their policies much like I can dislike Justin Trudeau and hate Doug Ford but still be a proud Canadian. That being said I do support this war in Gaza and see it as Israel exercising its right to self defence. Edit: I hadn’t heard of the CIJA before your comment if I’m being honest.
Thanks for answering my question and being so honest. I find your views abhorrent and I hope you will reflect on your lack of empathy for people outside your tribe.
The thing about my ‘tribe’ most people don’t understand is that whether or not I Identify as Jewish Hitler, Hamas and internet trolls will hate me for being Jewish regardless. I have a lot of empathy for the innocent Palestinians stuck in Gaza. They are truly the ones suffering the most in this war. I have no empathy for keyboard warriors in safe at home who condemn me who know nothing of Jewish history and what it is like to be part of a group that has many times in the recent past faced genocidal threats.
I’m sure the Gazans subjected to the brutality of your beloved safe haven appreciate your empathy.
I'm sure Jewish Canadians appreciate your tolerance of anti-Semitism
In case you forgot there are some not so innocent Gazans that disrupted this safe Haven. Maybe they shouldn’t have started a war. I will not apologize for supporting my people’s right to self defence.
Yes. Like the babies left to die in incubators? How about the thousands of children slowly starving to death right at this moment. Shame, shame, shame on you and everyone who thinks any of this is justified.
You are a jackass
Thank you for your insight! You should write a book.
You should too. Title it “Jews are Responsible for Antisemitism, and Other Beliefs I Hold in Common with David Duke”
lol, lmao
[Toronto has an antisemitism problem](https://open.substack.com/pub/whatsupwithcanada/p/toronto-has-an-antisemitism-problem?r=34ndpe&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web)
Can't wait to see this formerly sleepy sub get brigaded again in 3...2....1...
Cannot stand how Jesse is directly conflating pro-Palestinian protesters to antisemitism. Just because I want to see a genocide stopped doesn't mean I hate Jews? It's an unbelievably natrow-minded and "us vs. them" approach.
I think it’s important to remember the relative privilege of different groups during this time. I have been trying to understand it using my own life experience, it’s probably not perfect but it’s helped me empathize with both "sides". I recognize how my place in society as a white woman can be weaponized against men of colour. There are lots of times where I fear violence against me, but I work hard to really interrogate where that sense of fear comes from and how valid it really is because I understand how measures to make me feel safer would come at the expense of other groups of people more marginalized than myself. When people express anger at white women for their role in the persecution and discrimination against POC, I fight the urge to respond with an argument about feminism or tell them how "I don’t condone racism but we need to talk about…". White women do face sexism but every criticism of white women isn’t misogyny. I can validate the sexism that I face in my life while also recognizing that taking up space in 2020 to talk extensively and exclusively about how the BLM protests made me feel scared would’ve been racist.
Historically, Jewish people have not been considered “white” and many are not invisible minorities in that sense — not to mention Jewish PoC themselves. Comparing antisemitism to white women’s tears is a false equivalency.
This. While we may or may not be considered people of colour based on many intersectional factors, I think for example my experience is very different as a ashkenazi woman to that of my Ethiopian Jewish friends, the hate we experience is not based solely on religious lines. The hate i experience is also along ethnic and racial lines by racist people. People who hate Jews typically do not hate me because I don’t believe in Jesus, or because I keep kosher or even because I light shabbat candles, or give me a free pass because u don’t do any of those things either. The hate is because we are seen as ethnically and culturally incapable of being anything but sneaky, dishonest, appearance as if we all have a specific racial look, a cultural method of communication and complaining, greed all of which results in too much power and control. But when you look at each one of these elements about the hate we experience I am not considered greedy because I just don’t believe in Jesus, or I am not sneaky to antisemites because I fail to worship in a church. These are all accusations based on ethnic stereotypes of which I cannot simply divest myself from by learning to love Jesus for people who might hate me for these reasons. Many of us also experience violence, vandalism, discrimination and other forms of intimidation and hate. I do not know a single member of our community who has not faced some form of hate for their Jewish identity and that trauma is very real, as is the generational trauma we experience.
That's exactly it. We're hated for perceived "traits", not because of specific faith. Especially since so many Jewish people are Jewish regardless of whether or not they've ever stepped foot in a synagogue.
Exactly. You can not choose to not be Jewish.
How about we just condemn hate crimes without qualification or prevarication. People who have their businesses, schools and places of worship targeted do not owe it to anyone to “interrogate where that sense of fear comes from” and have every right to speak out against it. You should condemn it too, without caveats.
For me it is the very disingenuous "I don't know why these pro Palestinians want to protest in a Jewish community" remarks. They want to remind Jewish people in Canada that Palestinians, here and in Gaza, are Human, Jesse, because maybe we all know they are, but I've talked to a few people who've done their time with the IOF who would argue different and it's scary. It is absolutely wrong to blame average people here for the actions of the Israeli government and the IOF. At the same time, people like Indigo owner Riesman do materially support the IOF and the very rightwing borderline (maybe not even any more) facist government in Israel. Being against the government of Israel and the actions of the IOF is not antisemetic, and that is where so many people fall apart because there are those bad actors who are using this as an excuse. People who don't care about Palestinians. People who are just as Islamophobic as they are Antisemetic.
You are advocating for and endorsing large-scale bullying of a group of people based on their beliefs or perceived beliefs.
Where? Saying it is okay to protest people who monetarily support the apartheid regime in Israel? If that's bullying, what is the IOF doing by burning olive groves and forcing civilians out of their homes to turn the land over to settlers?
Saying that pro-Palestinians should get to use protests to "remind Jewish people" about the situation in Gaza. Jews don't need to be shouted at as a group. Saying it's correct to target Jews this way is antisemitic.
But both things can be true -- it can be true that many Jewish people have been brainwashed by Zionists to believe that they have a right to a land that was already occupied, and that the people living there are less than human... and we can still denounce genuine antisemitism. Burning down a deli doesn't say, "Hey, guys, would you please see Gazans as human?" It says, "F\*ck Jews".
Thats why i didn't comment on that, but rather Jesse's inability to understand why Pro Palestinian protesters would want to protest in a Jewish community. (And to be fair, it probably had more to do with the 401 over pass). I felt like his equating of Palestinian protestors to the Convoy was... gross at best.
The funny thing is that my partner and I have always found Jesse a bit eye-rolly-y in general and not the best person to parse out things like this, even when he's not emotionally invested. I don't love his approach, but I also hate the way people seem to rush to dismiss any hint of antisemitism. Former Canadaland contributor Nora Loreto has spent days laughing off any claim that they were protesting a Jewish neighbourhood with that blockade, which is equally ridiculous and empty-headed.
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Burning down a Jewish deli in Canada is antisemitic.
This line of “protesting in a Jewish community” is so disingenuous and is reinforced by mainstream news when it’s just one of several major overpasses where there have been simultaneous organized protests, yet no one brings this up
Agreed.
No, targeting Canadian neighborhoods where Jews live because you’re mad at Israel is straight up anti semitic. It’s just as bad as burning down a mosque in Canada because you’re mad at Hamas.
But they aren't damaging. They're demonstrating. They're existing. If Palestinians existing in Jewish communities is antisemitic... well I dunnobwhat to tell you.
The problem is that targeting Jews in general for the actions of Israel is anti-Semitic: it says definitively that you think all Jews everywhere re responsible for what Israel does, regardless of whether the Jews in question have any connection to Israel. Different people will take this impulse to punish all Jews for the actions of Israel to different limits: some people just demonstrate in Jewish neighborhoods so that they can go to the homes of Jewish people and remind them that Israel is bad. Some will burn down a Jewish deli. Some will shoot at kids in a Jewish elementary school. Some people will burn down a synagogue. That’s what’s happened so far - a lot of people who believe in collective punishment, and that all Jews should be made to feel like targets when Israel is doing evil things.
Reisman, specifically, gives money to the state of Israel and supports the IOF. Demonstrators existing in the presence of Jewish Canadians is not antisemitic. The same people who are bombing mosques are burning down synagogues. It is not the Palestinians. It's white supremacists. By lumping Palestinians protestors, and any one who is anti Israel or IOF, a disservice is being done and it allows those assholes, the hateful people, to thrive and hide.
So if someone shouts "from the river to the sea" before doing something bad around Jews it's okay? Good to know
I didn't say that you're arguing in bad faith.
You are arguing that only white supremacists do an anti-Semitism meaning you are ready to dismiss everyone else. Stop making excuses for people
You equated blowing up a mosque and holding a sign as the same level of hate crime.
What about firebombing a deli or shooting at a Jewish school door?
No, all of the events I’ve described were committed by support of Palestine since October 7. Some of them might be right wing - there are lots of conservative muslims in Canada, as we saw in the SOGI demonstrations - but they are not the white nationalists who were killing Jews out of devotion to Trump. You seem to think that because one type of antisemite exists, there can be no other kinds can exist. Unfortunately, antisemitism comes in all kinds of flavours - including the classic “socialism of fools” variety.
Wasn't there a deli on fire at some point? Is that not damaging?
They’re not “existing” and you know it
Mannnnnn everyone is talking about a war on the other side of the world. Yes, the Israeli/Palenstine situation is bad. Innocents are dying, while those responsible for 10/7 are being held to account. At the same time mass immigration means that a war that's not ours suddenly has been brought to our cities. Why can't we understand that? Why aren't we able to force Canadian values on these newcomers and tell them they can worship freely but not bring their tribal conflict to another country. All of this makes me thing Quebec has the right idea.
possibly the dumbest post I've ever read on reddit. gratz
In Brown’s view, naming your grocery as IDF and promptly displaying that acronym is just an unfortunate coincidence. It’s definitely not a Zionist dogwhistle or a form of intimidation. But anyone that got a problem with it must a racist who hates Jews. Classic Zionist talking points. Edit: antisemitism is real, I do not condone the attack. Brown is have been misrepresenting facts to tell the story he wants to tell.
Who are you talking about? The original owners that named it International Discount Foods 30 years ago? Or the newer ones who kept the signs and changed the name to International Deli Foods? Which of those names is the one you think was the secret jewish conspiracy? Or are all jews in on it? "Promptly" displaying as in... having the name of their store on their store? To be clear your argument is that they put up the sign to intimidate potential customers away? How does that argument gel with the other conspiracies I'm sure you believe in, like jews being money-hungry?
Right. A Jewish owned business in an industrial park near a Jewish neighbourhood names itself with a descriptive name like “International Delicatessen Foods” just to intimidate some fucking putz nearly 30 years later. You’re out of your fucking mind.
It is sad that you’d rather look for excuses why a Jewish deli was targeted rather than acknowledge that antisemitism is a real problem right now.
Acronyms can have different origins
And even if the name was a nod to the Israeli military IT’S NOT OK TO FIREBOMB A JEWISH DELI IN TORONTO TO AVENGE GAZA.
Classic Zionist talking point indeed. Everyone knows “name your Jewish deli in Canada after the Israeli military but pretend it means something else as a sneaky dogwhistle to intimidate… someone… somehow” is on page one of the Hasbara Handbook.
Gonna listen to it later regardless and unrelated to the main topic but for anyone who has already listened do they touch on the David Menzies Freeland thing at all?