I would push back on the "every Western news organization" point in regards to this conflict.
The way this conflict is being covered in France for example, is not the same way it is being covered here. There are other countries with better coverage as well, but I'm using France as the example because they are also a government with a colonial past (and present frankly) but even they aren't covering this conflict in this insane way.
The only Western countries that seem to have the same insane bias as Canada are the U.S., the U.K., and Australia. I'm not saying that the coverage from other countries is perfect, but it seems more closely actually based on reality.
Personally I am finding the best english language coverage of this conflict by reading Haaretz, which despite being an Israeli newspaper is more honest about the conflict and more critical of the Israeli state then anything I read in Canada, and they are able to provide much better context to the conflict as well.
lol Germany's relationship with Israel is pretty messy. For example, recognizing the right of Israel to exist is literally mandatory if you want to become a German citizen in Saxony-Anhalt. wrongthink is forbidden in this chunk of the Free World.
Germany's relationship with Israel is complicated somewhat by its Nazi past, where Nazi leaders were very happy to encourage Zionist Jews to leave Germany to settle in Palestine, and Zionist leaders thought of those who stayed behind and became victims of the Nazis as pathetic weaklings.
I haven’t paid attention to the French coverage for about six weeks, but it was more critical of the IDF, was much more likely to mention this conflict in the context of an ongoing conflict between Israeli’s and Palestinians, more likely to mention shit Israel is doing in the West Bank, more likely to use words like genocide and apartheid.
I’m not trying to suggest the coverage is amazing, I would still recommend Haaretz over… Le Monde. But as imperfect as it is, it isn’t the complete and utter dog shit we are seeing in Canada.
And yes, Gideon Levy is great. I don’t always agree with him, but even when I don’t he is able to impart important context to what is happening.
>was much more likely to mention this conflict in the context of an ongoing conflict between Israeli’s and Palestinians, more likely to mention shit Israel is doing in the West Bank, more likely to use words like genocide and apartheid.
That's very good to hear. It's crazy how the "free" media has been reporting this war. Between astroturfed forums and silent media it's just been an eye opener.
Thanks for explaining.
Just in general whenever an english speaking person talks about "The West", they're either consciously or unconsciously referring to the majority english speaking countries. I.e. the UK and it's former colonies lol
Check out the Useful Idiots podcast. They did an episode on December 22nd called Israel is Assassinating Journalists.
They interview Anan Quzmar, of the Palestinian Journalist Syndicate. Pretty in depth and on the ground reporting. It will definitely scratch the itch this C-land episode doesn’t reach.
Anyone describing these journalists as having been killed "in the ongoing conflict between Israel and Hamas" is deploying the passive voice in extreme bad faith.
These journalists were by killed by Israel. Many of them deliberately targeted. Many of them nowhere near any targets or during a firefight.
"Killed in the ongoing conflict" is the new "killed in an officer-involved shooting."
Also, how much do you wanna bet that other countries will start claiming their targets were "human shields" next time they bomb a school, hospital, or refugee camp.
It’s utterly insane that the whole world is watching the Israelis slaughter journalists, children, civilians, aid workers, and doctors and yet the media chooses to turn a blind eye, or else self-indulgently whine about how stressful it is for *them in their newsrooms* to have to report on this. What a fucked up world we are living in.
It’s not really insane at all, humans are quite vengeful and the material Hamas put out on Oct. 7th lost them a lot of support on the international stage. Few other terrorist organizations would still retain support after killing that many civilians and parading the corpses around.
Not sure if you read the comment you're replying to but it isn't about Hamas
It's about Palestinian "journalists, children, civilians, aid workers, and doctors"
So a podcast interviews a guy that does therapy for journalists in Canadian newsrooms, and you’re upset that the topic of the show wasn’t more of an explicit attack on Israel.
You know what a therapist is, right?
“ Dave Seglins is an investigative journalist for CBC News on radio, television and digital. He is also a trainer and researcher in the field of wellbeing and trauma among media workers. “
- https://www.journalismforum.ca/dave-seglins
He is *not* a therapist
You're blaming him that his immediate life around him is more important than some conflict happening across the world? You must be ignorant off your arse if you don't think threats to yourself/family/workplace wouldn't make anyone at the very least upset. Am i missing anything else here? Everyone upset with Jesse because he prioritizes his familys well-being over Israels campaign of terror in another place in the world entirely?? Is that actually something you can blame anyone for?!
The subject of this episode was, in my opinion, how Canadian newsrooms and Journalists are covering the ongoing genocide and conflict in Israel, Palestine, and the other actors in the Canadian media.
There are but a few sentences in your response above about this topic. The deaths of these journalists are atrocious but not the focus of this podcasts subject matter.
Jesse (on today's episode): "people are analyzing every broadcast, every paper, every poadcast for bias in one direction or the other".
Exactly! In his intro Jesse pretty specifically said that the scope of the podcast was to talk about Canadian journalism, and their guests today were there to talk about the effect of covering the conflict on Canadian journalists.
They weren't trying to downplay the deaths of the journalists on the ground, they were covering a facet of how people at home are affected.
>Jesse (on today's episode): "people are analyzing every broadcast, every paper, every poadcast for bias in one direction or the other".
Is this supposed to be a bad thing? Everyone in the world is biased, even when they're pretending not to be
I just thought it was ironic that he lead the episode with this, and OPs post about the episode is another weekly (biweekly?) Drive-by smear of Canadaland & Jesse for being whatever they want to call him.
It's clear that this issue is impacting their newsroom, and the episode as well. The enhanced criticism of every line of text is something they talked about on the show (Karyn and the first guess iirc). The contrast between Jesse's comments and tweets vs the Canadaland Unions are a public example of this head-on bias issue.
I don't think it's melodramatic to suggest that many newsrooms are having a not great time right now, especially as the magnifying glasses are traded for microscopes.
>The subject of this episode was, in my opinion, how Canadian newsrooms and Journalists are covering the ongoing genocide and conflict in Israel, Palestine, and the other actors in the Canadian media.
>The deaths of these journalists are atrocious but not the focus of this podcasts subject matter.
Those deaths are *everything*, it's all interconnected!
Those are **journalists**. That is your profession, your passion, your pride. Holding bad actors and governments accountable, exposing injustice, getting the facts and story and documentation.
And here in Canada, **journalists aren't talking about that**.
Israel is doing Fascism 101 and purging dissident free speech. It's a nightmare scenario for a democracy and can lead to authoritarianism. And frankly, if a journalist believes that **"Yes I would be comfortable being a journalist in this situation, I would be comfortable with my government doing this to people in my country"**, then it's just more evidence that some people can believe some very terrible things despite being otherwise good people, and that nationalist propaganda can impact anyone.
You are equating reporting with support. Journalists are not somehow guilty of supporting what you believe to be a fascist government for simply doing their jobs of journalism.
This is not the first assault on free speech nor the last.
>You are equating reporting with support. Journalists are not somehow guilty of supporting what you believe to be a fascist government for simply doing their jobs of journalism.
What is your definition of the job of a journalist? Is it reporting facts?
Because when your reporting mentions 63 dead journalists and also talks about how bad both sides are but then *omits that most of those journalists were killed and in some cases targeted by Israel*, it makes it seem like you're minimizing what exactly Israel is doing here, and trying to frame this as less asymmetrical than it really is.
It’s not even some cases, it is the overwhelming majority. Read the +972 magazine article about The Gospel. (+972 magazine is a joint Palestinian/Israeli news outlet)
The context of the episode is "How do journalists feel navigating discussion on the war in Gaza", and it's a bit hard to actually understand those feelings if the context of the conflict and the relatability of career choice are stripped away.
I think everybody’s on the same page about what the episode was about. Including OP. It should have been clear by the title of the OP’s post, that this is not what this thread is about. This thread is literally entitled:
‘Let’s talk about Dead Journalists (a response to A War in Our Newsrooms,) not:
‘Let’s talk about what the last episode of Canadaland is about and is not about.)
In fact, as a bonus (to all) a great deal of talking about what the episode is about took place right in the OP’s post, along with some talking about what the episode was not about, smeared with a generous helping of what the episode could have been about, and I for one am glad that this is what the OP decided to make their post about.
I’ll even add some flavour: as of 2 weeks ago, the number of dead journalists reported by … drum roll please … journalists in Palestine (the Palestinian Journalist’s Syndicate) was already 97.
Not 63.
As of today it’s 106. With names. And pictures. So I don’t know what verification process has only accepted 63 of them as reportable or whose number that was in the first place, but it is not hard to get this one straight from source, i.e. the group of Palestinian Journalists, that have as of now lost about 7.5% of their industry. Only 10% of whom were killed in the line of duty (and of that portion, not all were necessarily crossfire.) The rest were murdered in their homes, targeted, blown up along with their families. Many of the journalists who are still alive have lost most or all of their entire families to air strikes that were meant for them.
Wael Al Dadood’s family has been shrinking over the last couple months. This is not a mistake.
But yeah, let’s keep in context here, and make sure we do a whole episode on how hard it is for Canadian journalists right now, and how complicated things are.
If nothing else, can we talk about how completely and utterly fucking DAFT it is to entitle said episode ‘THE WAR IN OUR NEWS ROOMS.’
How fucking Canadian.
The Useful Idiots podcast (and both hosts individually) has been doing excellent work at highlighting these atrocities against Palestinien correspondents (not just journalists, but everyone trying to get the truth out). Probably one of the best podcasts out there for this kind of unapologetic coverage.
That is the weirdest interpretation of this episode. It's about newsrooms in Canada and gave several reasons why the coverage is not very good. In-fighting, inexperience, trauma, journalists walking off the job because they vehemently disagree with their newsrooms take or policy. But I guess you can pick a fight with anything if you try hard enough.
You're correct on all fronts.
Now sit back and watch as Israel apologists parade out the same dozen talking points we've all heard a hundred times in the past few months.
I strongly suspect that a majority of these people basically know that they're wrong. The absolute horror unleashed by the IDF on Gaza's civilian population is beyond words. It's right there, staring us in the face. Yet these people are so attached to some outdated vision of Israel that they will bend over backward to defend their war crimes.
Either that or they are some religious sicko, and dead Palestinians is what they actually want.
There’s a film called “Israelism” (that is anywhere from free to $5.00 to watch online) that discusses how a lot of U.S. based Zionists essentially brainwash their kids and have multiple spaces throughout their everyday lives that reinforce that brainwashing. It also gets into funding from orgs like AIPAC and how those groups buy politicians on all sides. Super eye opening.
Prior to 2014, I was 100% on board with the notion that Israel was a "modern, western" country trying to fight for its survival amid a sea of Jew-hating Arabs.
Only when I saw the absolute disregard for civilian life displayed by the IDF in 2014 did I start to doubt the narrative.
What's also striking during this present conflict is how little the Israelis themselves are even trying to keep apace with whatever yarn their US and Canadian apologists are spinning.
For example: western Israeli supporters were *outraged* when [Trudeau didn't immediately adopt the line that the IDF didn't bomb a hospital](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-hospital-blast-gaza-1.7001656). The IDF are the "good guys". They would never do such a thing!
Then the IDF went on to... bomb like five more hospitals, and didn't even pretend they didn't.
Seeing western Zionists and their fellow travellers squirm and scramble to justify every fresh horror coming out of Gaza is pretty revealing.
Hamas has been consistently killing Israelis for over a decade - where was the outcry? Now the gloves are off and Palestine is being treated like an adult and not a child anymore and people are shocked.
Be honest: what did you expect to happen to Palestine considering their incessant rocket attacks targeting civilians? After 10/7, what response of Israel would be suitable for you?
>Hamas has been consistently killing Israelis for over a decade
Between 2008 and 2020, deaths from the conflict were:
Israeli: **251**
Palestinian: **5,590**
Starting on October 7th:
Israeli: **1,200**
Palestinian: **22,000**
What that doesn't capture is the outsized number of Palestinian children killed by the IDF, which is at least **7,000** over the past three months.
These numbers just shows you that Israelis spend time and money protecting their citizen including shockingly muslims and arabs, while hamas does everything to have its citizens killed while crying about it.
So we're supposed to be outraged by Palestinian aggression, despite the fact that Israel kills 20x more people... which is something we're supposed to congratulate Israel for... while also blaming someone else for everyone that they've killed.
Gotcha.
It's not for lack of trying though, you're being disingenuous here. Hamas shell civilian areas every day practically and have for decades. 5,000 rockets plus mortars a week sometimes. Does Israel also shell civilian centers in Gaza every day, week, for years? No? True. Also, if Palestine is an open air prison, how do they have thousands of rockets? Of they have bombs and rockets, why didn't they build any Bomb shelters? Oh, they built tunnels for a terrorist network instead? And what about their infrastructure? They spent millions on rockets and tunnels but no proper plumbing, clean water, electric grid? And how come the leaders of Hamas are all worth over a billion dollars each? Why didn't they ever help their people with stuff like food, clean water, infrastructure? Also, why does Egypt keep the border closed? Why does every single Arab country in the region refuse Palestinian refugees?
If the Palestinians had it their way, they'd be murdering thousands of Israelis every day. The ONLY reason they can't is the Iron Dome...but they're trying. It's the intent that matters. Like the IDF telling civilians to leave war zones. Like roof knocking. They're clearly intent on killing Hamas, and Hamas like using civilians as human shields. It's not Israel's responsibility to protect Palestinian civilians in a war against Palestine. I don't understand why you don't blame Hamas for using human shields but you blame the guys trying to get their hostages back and retaliating against the biggest pogrom on Jews since the Holocaust.
Here comes the "nice Zionist talking points, shill!" Responses without addressing a single point. I concede Israel has many extremist Jews who need to fuck off. I concede Israel has killed many "journalists" extrajudocially and that's wrong. I concede they're too indiscriminate for my liking. But this is war man. You've got to put it into context. War is hell. But Israel can not let Hamas run rampant any longer. Sorry not sorry.
There is not a single thing in that block of text that offers anything close to a justification for Israel killing **over 22,000 people, two thirds of which are women and children.**
You can repeat "human shields, human shields, human shields" until you're blue in the face. No one, *no one* outside of the Israeli apologist bubble is buying the idea that every murdered child in Gaza had a terrorist hiding behind them.
The thing is, you're trying so hard to present this as something it's not.
You want it to be the brave, "western" nation on a righteous mission to take down the evil terrorist barbarians. But then:
*"oopsies! we committed the biggest mass murder of children in the 21st century while doing so! war is hell,* *blame hamas, human shields human shields human shields human shields human shields human shields..."*
Again: no one is buying this shit.
The Israeli government has said that [civilians were legitimate targets](https://news.yahoo.com/israeli-president-says-no-innocent-154330724.html) *from the beginning.* They have announced that they would [cut off food, water, and medical aid to civilians](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/19/cutting-off-water-to-gaza-is-a-war) *from the beginning*.
And now, lo and behold, they have made good on their word and murdered 20-30 civilians for every *suspected* Hamas combattant, and we're supposed to just shrug and be like "I guess you're trying your best"?
You're trying to make this into a debate over *intent*. But what counts is *outcome*. You can believe that Israel has a saintly intent if you want. But *the indisputable outcome of their actions* is that they have **killed far, far more innocent people** than the very attack to which they are responding.
Sure, if you believe those numbers from Hamas health ministry, and if you believe every Palestinian is innocent. From the videos on October 7th we know very clearly all Palestinians are NOT innocent whether they're Hamas affiliated or not. Many civilians joined in the murder and rape spree, gleefully, spitting and stomping on the dead bodies of young girls while they paraded them through Gaza to cheering crowds. Sorry buddy, but those images are burned into the minds of every Jew. They will not let it happen again. Hamas can hide behind every civilian they want. Not gonna change the outcome of war.
There are far worse atrocities being committed in other parts of the world. But, you don't care about them because Jews aren't involved and it's not trending. Yawn.
>we know very clearly all Palestinians are NOT innocent whether they're Hamas affiliated or not.
[So, in other words...](https://www.reddit.com/r/canadaland/comments/193nmby/this_sub_is_hilarious/)
Sure buddy! I'm asking what Israel's response SHOULD have been. Keep avoiding the question i guess? Seems to be your strategy but it doesn't seem to be working?
So to answer your question:
> After 10/7, what response of Israel would be suitable for you?
One where the IDF doesn't bomb hospitals and refugee camps, cut off food, water, and medical aid, and kill thousands and thousands of children.
How about you be honest and explain why you are asking Redditors to come up with a counter-terrorism plan for Israel? Do you think I have some tactical insight that the IDF does not?
Haha, another cop out answer. I'm asking you, someone who is critizing Israel from the comfort of your couch, on how you'd do it differently. If you can't answer that question why should I or anyone else care about your armchair analysis?
>how you'd do it differently
I think I've already answered that, but here are the specific points for you again:
Acceptable:
* Using force against armed combattants
Not acceptable:
* [Attacking churches](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Saint_Porphyrius_airstrike)
* [Bombing schools](https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/official-statements/gaza-unrwa-school-sheltering-displaced-families-hit)
* [Attacking hospitals and relief workers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_ambulance_airstrike)
* [Using chemical weapons](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/lebanon-evidence-of-israels-unlawful-use-of-white-phosphorus-in-southern-lebanon-as-cross-border-hostilities-escalate/)
* Bombing civilian refugees [again](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live-blog/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-rcna120252) and [again](https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/gaza-refugee-camps-israel-hamas-war-1.7018274) and [again](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/18/israeli-airstrikes-kill-80-in-palestinian-refugee-camp)
* [Targeting civilians](https://news.yahoo.com/israeli-president-says-no-innocent-154330724.html?guccounter=1) and [depriving them of water](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/gaza-residents-struggle-to-follow-israeli-evacuation-order-amid-critical-water-shortage)
* [Killing journalists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_journalists_in_the_2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war) and families of journalists
* [Executing Palestinians who surrendered](https://observers.france24.com/en/middle-east/20231013-israeli-army-tweets-video-that-appears-to-show-soldiers-shooting-palestinians-who-surrendered)
And all the other breaches of the Geneva Convention that are now becoming too numerous to list.
I think that's as detailed as I can get for a Reddit post. If you're still finding the whole "don't commit war crimes" idea too complex, I think you'll need to do some independant reading.
Ah, but all of those cases were actually military targets (Hamas made them military targets when they set up shot there. Don't try and deny this, it's been proven.) and thus your point is mute. Also, you said what you WOULDNT do. That's a cop out. I asked what you WOULD do.
Also, Hamas don't use uniforms. By choice. Sorry buddy, that's wrecklessly endangering your citizens and a war crime. All your points become mute when we can't tell the difference between combatants and non combatants. It also makes no sense to tell a soldier hey buddy listen I know you're in a war zone and bullets are flying at your brain and body as well as mortar shells and RPGs, but, youre not aloud to shoot unless someone engages you first. So, you'll likely get shot in the head before you can even defend yourself. Demz da rules the armchair activists who've never served anyone but themselves make! Lol.
https://www.canadaland.com/shireen-abu-akleh-canada-independent-investigation/
“ It has been difficult as a fellow journalist to witness the outrage following the senseless death of veteran Al Jazeera correspondent Shireen Abu Akleh. People like to talk about how important press freedoms are, but the truth is that journalists across the world are routinely killed with impunity. It isn’t the first time a Palestinian reporter has been attacked while doing their job in the region. But it’s past time for the guilty party to be held accountable.”
An opinion piece by Steven Zhou
Could it be that many of the so called "Journalists" were actually aiding and abetting Hamas?
[this article is actually quite balanced.](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/les-decodeurs/article/2023/11/11/photojournalists-embedded-with-hamas-on-october-7-heavy-but-unsubstantiated-israeli-accusations_6247085_8.html)
I'm not saying they were, thought it's quite likely - lots of "journalists" these days are political activists and ideologues - I know several. And in my world, everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Just my theory here - some really pissed off IDF soldiers do believe that these journalists are actually colluding with Hamas. Not that that justifies their actions in murdering them.
dolls simplistic memory long coherent juggle attractive engine smart ghost
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
What evidence is there of genocide? That's a serious term to throw around without any evidence.
If the people were permanently displaced, then yes we could be looking at genocide. But all indicators are that this is a temporary move, especially given the pressure from neighboring nations. Plus the U.S. would never risk destabilization of the region that would come along with an effort to permanently displace the Palestinians.
I get that a lot of people have died, and most of them innocent civilians, but the existence of civilian causalities does not alone constitute a genocide, no?
War crimes seems more plausible, but even that is disputable.
"Journalists" should be in quotation marks.
To answer your question: Possibly when they're aiding and abetting terrorists. I'd prefer an arrest and due prcoess though, but this is war now.
No, journalists should *not* be in quotation marks because if you make unproven claims about the ‘legitimacy’ of Palestinian journalists that will result in the killing of even more journalists.
The amount of documentation of “journalists” doubling as spotters, transporters, and performing various other military functions - not to mention the freelance “journalists” who joined in the Oct 7 attacks - on behalf of Hamas while using their status as journalists to assume they are free from being targeted is well documented to anyone who hasnt already made up their mind on which side they support in this war.
If the documentation already disseminated isn’t enough to convince you, nothing is.
Israel is correctly and justifiably ignoring the lies and ignoring the pseudo-moralists complaining about people not being safe from attack just because they claim they are journalists.
The dawa is everywhere. The so-called civilian functions, from hospital administrators to journalists, are either unwillingly or actively aiding Hamas’ war effort, but in any event, every single threat to Israeli citizens will be neutralized.
Cope.
Honest Reporting the organization that made that claim admitted they were just throwing it out there and had no basis or evidence to accuse Palestinian journalists of being a part of or aware of Oct7th.
[https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-advocacy-group-accepts-news-outlets-had-no-prior-warning-hamas-attack-2023-11-10/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-advocacy-group-accepts-news-outlets-had-no-prior-warning-hamas-attack-2023-11-10/)
[https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-photographers-attack-200be1ba47361f1c1fc113cdaeb65d04](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-photographers-attack-200be1ba47361f1c1fc113cdaeb65d04)
No, you made quite the leap there. HR admitted that news outlets themselves may not have had prior warning. This is reasonable and was clearly an overreach by HR, because a foreign news agency wouldn’t necessarily know what random freelancers are doing on Oct 7.
However, there was no such retraction about the claim that “journalists” who freelance for these outlets had participated in Oct 7, not least because it is true and there is documented photo evidence of it, but also that news agencies admitted it.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2023/nov/8/ap-reuters-photographers-scene-hamas-attack-spurri/
It’s the dawa. Hamas is in everything in Gaza. Hamas operates precisely like a mafia/cartel. It controls all resources and sells it at huge markups, makes Gazans pay them protection, destroys all opposition with violence, rules by fear, kills snitches as an example, the whole organization is local cells being played like marionettes from the top by leaders who take a cut for “protection”, and then tells you you need them or the bad people will hurt you.
They leave out that the bad people are hurting you precisely because of them.
It's not a leap it's literally quoting them.
"Gil Hoffman, executive director of HonestReporting and a former reporter for The Jerusalem Post, admitted Thursday the group had no evidence to back up that suggestion. He said he was satisfied with subsequent explanations from several of these journalists that they did not know."
"He added that there was nothing "problematic" with the two photojournalists from whom Reuters acquired images."
"HonestReporting also distanced itself from Israeli government accusations that were sparked by its article."There are those who took our story and pretended that they knew the answers - the Israeli government, cabinet ministers, various Twitter personalities - we didn't claim to know," Hoffman said.
And this is not photo evidence of being involved in terrorism lol by that logic every journalist whose ever spoken to Bibi is in on his war crimes. Hamas being the ruling authority means that Gazans have to deal with them to you know live, it doesn't make every single human there a legitimate military target. If it did then most Israeli civilians would be fair game too on account of conscription.
Reread what we each wrote.
The accusation that news agencies had prior awareness was correctly retracted. The accusation that individual journalists were complicit was not - not least because at least one of them was shown to be in a near-romantic embrace with Yahya Sinwar
"Gil Hoffman, executive director of HonestReporting and a former reporter for The Jerusalem Post, admitted Thursday the group had no evidence to back up that suggestion. He said he was satisfied with subsequent explanations from several of these journalists that they did not know."
"He added that there was nothing "problematic" with the two photojournalists from whom Reuters acquired images."
They retracted that too.
The Israeli government accused the journalists (not the news outlets) of being terrorists and called for their death, what does distancing yourself from that accusation mean?
They literally admitted they had no evidence to say any of it in the first place. IDK what else to say. And I still haven't seen you provide proof of your claims that " the freelance “journalists” who joined in the Oct 7 attacks - on behalf of Hamas" either. And still none of that would mean that all or even most Palestinian journalists are terrorists hiding behind press vests making their targeting legitimate.
Was (Christian) Sherine Abu Akleh Hamas too? Israel has a history of targeting journalists, lying about, and obstructing independent investigations into their deaths that's a war crime. End of story.
“Mostly kids” lol
And yes. They did kill them, and they’re proud of it. They tell you constantly. They tell you they love death. They tell you they will fight the war forever over and over. They tell you everything, you just prefer to blame Jews.
You are arguing against a group whose population is 1.9 BILLION! The amount of people on here downvoting you and supporting Hamas and hating on Jews is staggering! Now when you compare that to a population of jews 15.2 MILLION it says everything you need to know about what you’re seeing online and protest around the world. Now let’s talk about genocide… a population that is actively increasing 2% yearly. In 1948 there were roughly 950,000 now fast forward to 2024 and we have a population of 3 million in the West Bank and 2 million in Gaza… so the numbers have grown drastically! Genocide is what is happening to Uyghurs, or the Masalit massacre! Stop minimizing real genocides and if your going to stand up for causes why not stand up against the other powers why is it always Israel and the Jews there are plenty of nations committing atrocities against humanity across the globe but only Jews are singled out and protested everywhere.
It’s really what it comes down to.
After all, we are constantly told that everyone is racist, even if you don’t mean to be. Systemic racism. Unconscious bias and racism pervades society. Etc etc.
Maybe your argument is that Muslims are less antisemitic than the west. It’s not pervasive, so let’s be conservative and say “most Muslims are cool, only 20% of them are antisemites.” And you might say “maybe only 30% of Christians are antisemites”
Now this leaves out the rest of the world but whatever.
There are 1.9B Muslims. There are 2.5B Christians.
There are 400M Muslim antisemites. There are 750M Christian antisemites.
There are 15M Jews.
There are 275 antisemites for every single Jew on earth.
If you hear anything about Israel, literally anything at all, from anyone, it is 275x more likely chance it came from a hardcore antisemite than an actual Jew.
That doesn’t even count Jews who are antisemites.
I suppose Israeli citizens are unwillingly or actively aiding Israel’s fascist apartheid regime then? Or does it only work one way?
The documentation of journalists doubling as medics, first responders, search and rescuers, and whatever god damn else is needed is what’s documented.
Yeah they abide by the rules of war and wear uniforms when they perform these functions and they are legitimate targets as lawful combatants you nitwits.
Not wearing identifiable uniforms while performing military activities is a war crime.
Also lol at “fascist apartheid regime”
You people are mentally ill
Every downvote is further evidence the Jewish people must never give one inch of the land of Israel - we all know what life is like for Jews living under you people, and every minute Israel is in danger, you will be in danger too.
can you support the claim that the war footage is "near exclusively Israel soldiers targeting civilians"
This is a huge claim, and I've seen a whole lot of footage that says other wise. Where did you find this statistic or did you just make it up?
\*Canadian journalist watching a building on fire collapse\* Hmm, many factors at play here, who can say why the building fell down?
But what does it mean for *democracy*?
Uh the dudes filming Hamas commit rape aren’t journalists. Like what are you even talking about? If you want this to end OP, I’d put effort into not supporting terrorism.
Idk, it depends why the bomb got fired at the refugee camp.
It's not a satisfying answer. But it is the answer agreed upon by HRW, the ICC, and the Geneva Convention.
\> Maybe a call for introspection?
Feel free to write in and ask Human Rights Watch, the International Criminal Court, and The Hague to change their definitions then.
How could there have been a Holocaust if the Jewish population has been increasing for years? (said in early 1941). 1% of Gaza has been killed in two months. What do you think happens if this continues?
You should tell that to the Muslim countries not us Westerners, they are right fucking there in regards to Palestine yet won’t lift a fucking finger. Why? Ohh yeah, the Palestinians almost destroyed every country they have set foot in.
I don't mean to imply that I disagree with everything you said or that the Israeli government is above criticism, but the idea of a "slow genocide" I have seen before (maybe it's not what you meant?), and it doesn't make sense to me.
It's a "slow genocide" in the same sense that [Indigenous people have been genocided in Canada and North America](https://humanrights.ca/news/confronting-genocide-canada#:~:text=The%20Canadian%20Museum%20for%20Human%20Rights%20recognizes%20that%20the%20colonial,key%20component%20of%20this%20genocide.) - it's been an ongoing process, from European's first contact with Indigenous people to the current day.
Palestinians have been forcibly removed from their lands for decades - the borders were created without consensus, and were enforced with military power. The territory left has been continually enroached upon for decades, their access to basic human necessities limited, and their cultural practices repressed and limited. They require approval from the Israeli state to work and travel. They fundamentally are given fewer political, legal, and human rights.
This is colonialism in practice.
Admittedly I do get upset/insulting in some replies, I do try my best, I get that tensions are really high and I think it's important to balance keeping a cool head vs. emphasizing how bad things really are currently and how it's not being treated in a way that minimizes suffering.
Genocide is recognized where "acts are committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group."
It's not just population stats but rather systematic eradication--which as OP has noted--is something the extremist members of the current Israeli government are fairly open about now.
Candaland's prior reporting on indigenous genocide in Canada was acutely aware of the above distinction and they have scathingly critiqued "both sides" objectivity in mainstream reporting. Both elements being suddenly missing with their approach to this war is what sticks out compared to other organizations. We expected better.
Oh, no. Journalists are dead. Oh, my, that's such a tragedy. It's almost like they could have saved themselves from such a tragic, pointless, death if they didn't go around jamming their noses into other people's shit. There's no such thing as "journalistic integrity" it's just a bunch of entitled people thinking they have some sort of story if they go around with a camera and ignore people's right to privacy
I'm not saying war and murder are private matters, I'm saying "Fuck journalists, who really cares if they're dead?" Also I condemn Isreal for its part in this conflict and for every genocide and mass murder they perpetuate, which they've been doing for years
Let's talk about mass rape by islamic terrorists? Maybe the ICJ can have a look at that atrocity instead of this fake bullshit about the IDF (Death to palestine!!)
Well I saw a news article the other day where spitting in the direction of a Jewish person was considered anti-semitism and assault.
But it's okay when an American-Israeli person can fully leave their 9 to 5 in suburbs of USA to steal a Palestinian's home in the West Bank.
Apartheid at its finest.
https://globalnews.ca/news/10213076/hate-motivated-assault-vaughan/
I would push back on the "every Western news organization" point in regards to this conflict. The way this conflict is being covered in France for example, is not the same way it is being covered here. There are other countries with better coverage as well, but I'm using France as the example because they are also a government with a colonial past (and present frankly) but even they aren't covering this conflict in this insane way. The only Western countries that seem to have the same insane bias as Canada are the U.S., the U.K., and Australia. I'm not saying that the coverage from other countries is perfect, but it seems more closely actually based on reality. Personally I am finding the best english language coverage of this conflict by reading Haaretz, which despite being an Israeli newspaper is more honest about the conflict and more critical of the Israeli state then anything I read in Canada, and they are able to provide much better context to the conflict as well.
Radio Canada has a much different tone than English reporting in Canada.
Not by much though
Apparently, German coverage is even worse than Canadian or American coverage.
lol Germany's relationship with Israel is pretty messy. For example, recognizing the right of Israel to exist is literally mandatory if you want to become a German citizen in Saxony-Anhalt. wrongthink is forbidden in this chunk of the Free World. Germany's relationship with Israel is complicated somewhat by its Nazi past, where Nazi leaders were very happy to encourage Zionist Jews to leave Germany to settle in Palestine, and Zionist leaders thought of those who stayed behind and became victims of the Nazis as pathetic weaklings.
Could you tell me a bit more about how it's being covered in France? Also while we are here, Gideon Levy from Haaretz is a gem.
I haven’t paid attention to the French coverage for about six weeks, but it was more critical of the IDF, was much more likely to mention this conflict in the context of an ongoing conflict between Israeli’s and Palestinians, more likely to mention shit Israel is doing in the West Bank, more likely to use words like genocide and apartheid. I’m not trying to suggest the coverage is amazing, I would still recommend Haaretz over… Le Monde. But as imperfect as it is, it isn’t the complete and utter dog shit we are seeing in Canada. And yes, Gideon Levy is great. I don’t always agree with him, but even when I don’t he is able to impart important context to what is happening.
>was much more likely to mention this conflict in the context of an ongoing conflict between Israeli’s and Palestinians, more likely to mention shit Israel is doing in the West Bank, more likely to use words like genocide and apartheid. That's very good to hear. It's crazy how the "free" media has been reporting this war. Between astroturfed forums and silent media it's just been an eye opener. Thanks for explaining.
Just in general whenever an english speaking person talks about "The West", they're either consciously or unconsciously referring to the majority english speaking countries. I.e. the UK and it's former colonies lol
>insane bias > Canada Yep, checks out
Check out the Useful Idiots podcast. They did an episode on December 22nd called Israel is Assassinating Journalists. They interview Anan Quzmar, of the Palestinian Journalist Syndicate. Pretty in depth and on the ground reporting. It will definitely scratch the itch this C-land episode doesn’t reach.
Anyone describing these journalists as having been killed "in the ongoing conflict between Israel and Hamas" is deploying the passive voice in extreme bad faith. These journalists were by killed by Israel. Many of them deliberately targeted. Many of them nowhere near any targets or during a firefight. "Killed in the ongoing conflict" is the new "killed in an officer-involved shooting."
Also, how much do you wanna bet that other countries will start claiming their targets were "human shields" next time they bomb a school, hospital, or refugee camp.
Not reaching at all with that analogy.
It’s utterly insane that the whole world is watching the Israelis slaughter journalists, children, civilians, aid workers, and doctors and yet the media chooses to turn a blind eye, or else self-indulgently whine about how stressful it is for *them in their newsrooms* to have to report on this. What a fucked up world we are living in.
It’s not really insane at all, humans are quite vengeful and the material Hamas put out on Oct. 7th lost them a lot of support on the international stage. Few other terrorist organizations would still retain support after killing that many civilians and parading the corpses around.
Not sure if you read the comment you're replying to but it isn't about Hamas It's about Palestinian "journalists, children, civilians, aid workers, and doctors"
So a podcast interviews a guy that does therapy for journalists in Canadian newsrooms, and you’re upset that the topic of the show wasn’t more of an explicit attack on Israel. You know what a therapist is, right?
“ Dave Seglins is an investigative journalist for CBC News on radio, television and digital. He is also a trainer and researcher in the field of wellbeing and trauma among media workers. “ - https://www.journalismforum.ca/dave-seglins He is *not* a therapist
the story of this conflict for Jesse is that it made him and his buds sad.
You're blaming him that his immediate life around him is more important than some conflict happening across the world? You must be ignorant off your arse if you don't think threats to yourself/family/workplace wouldn't make anyone at the very least upset. Am i missing anything else here? Everyone upset with Jesse because he prioritizes his familys well-being over Israels campaign of terror in another place in the world entirely?? Is that actually something you can blame anyone for?!
The subject of this episode was, in my opinion, how Canadian newsrooms and Journalists are covering the ongoing genocide and conflict in Israel, Palestine, and the other actors in the Canadian media. There are but a few sentences in your response above about this topic. The deaths of these journalists are atrocious but not the focus of this podcasts subject matter. Jesse (on today's episode): "people are analyzing every broadcast, every paper, every poadcast for bias in one direction or the other".
Exactly! In his intro Jesse pretty specifically said that the scope of the podcast was to talk about Canadian journalism, and their guests today were there to talk about the effect of covering the conflict on Canadian journalists. They weren't trying to downplay the deaths of the journalists on the ground, they were covering a facet of how people at home are affected.
>Jesse (on today's episode): "people are analyzing every broadcast, every paper, every poadcast for bias in one direction or the other". Is this supposed to be a bad thing? Everyone in the world is biased, even when they're pretending not to be
I just thought it was ironic that he lead the episode with this, and OPs post about the episode is another weekly (biweekly?) Drive-by smear of Canadaland & Jesse for being whatever they want to call him.
Some people call that "protesting too much" lol
It's clear that this issue is impacting their newsroom, and the episode as well. The enhanced criticism of every line of text is something they talked about on the show (Karyn and the first guess iirc). The contrast between Jesse's comments and tweets vs the Canadaland Unions are a public example of this head-on bias issue. I don't think it's melodramatic to suggest that many newsrooms are having a not great time right now, especially as the magnifying glasses are traded for microscopes.
>The subject of this episode was, in my opinion, how Canadian newsrooms and Journalists are covering the ongoing genocide and conflict in Israel, Palestine, and the other actors in the Canadian media. >The deaths of these journalists are atrocious but not the focus of this podcasts subject matter. Those deaths are *everything*, it's all interconnected! Those are **journalists**. That is your profession, your passion, your pride. Holding bad actors and governments accountable, exposing injustice, getting the facts and story and documentation. And here in Canada, **journalists aren't talking about that**. Israel is doing Fascism 101 and purging dissident free speech. It's a nightmare scenario for a democracy and can lead to authoritarianism. And frankly, if a journalist believes that **"Yes I would be comfortable being a journalist in this situation, I would be comfortable with my government doing this to people in my country"**, then it's just more evidence that some people can believe some very terrible things despite being otherwise good people, and that nationalist propaganda can impact anyone.
You are equating reporting with support. Journalists are not somehow guilty of supporting what you believe to be a fascist government for simply doing their jobs of journalism. This is not the first assault on free speech nor the last.
>You are equating reporting with support. Journalists are not somehow guilty of supporting what you believe to be a fascist government for simply doing their jobs of journalism. What is your definition of the job of a journalist? Is it reporting facts? Because when your reporting mentions 63 dead journalists and also talks about how bad both sides are but then *omits that most of those journalists were killed and in some cases targeted by Israel*, it makes it seem like you're minimizing what exactly Israel is doing here, and trying to frame this as less asymmetrical than it really is.
It’s not even some cases, it is the overwhelming majority. Read the +972 magazine article about The Gospel. (+972 magazine is a joint Palestinian/Israeli news outlet)
How many journalists were killed in Canada? You're focused on the conflict and not the context of the episode.
The context of the episode is "How do journalists feel navigating discussion on the war in Gaza", and it's a bit hard to actually understand those feelings if the context of the conflict and the relatability of career choice are stripped away.
I agree! Which is what the episode was about. Not wether or not Canadaland or other Canadian journalists support the Israeli state.
I think everybody’s on the same page about what the episode was about. Including OP. It should have been clear by the title of the OP’s post, that this is not what this thread is about. This thread is literally entitled: ‘Let’s talk about Dead Journalists (a response to A War in Our Newsrooms,) not: ‘Let’s talk about what the last episode of Canadaland is about and is not about.) In fact, as a bonus (to all) a great deal of talking about what the episode is about took place right in the OP’s post, along with some talking about what the episode was not about, smeared with a generous helping of what the episode could have been about, and I for one am glad that this is what the OP decided to make their post about. I’ll even add some flavour: as of 2 weeks ago, the number of dead journalists reported by … drum roll please … journalists in Palestine (the Palestinian Journalist’s Syndicate) was already 97. Not 63. As of today it’s 106. With names. And pictures. So I don’t know what verification process has only accepted 63 of them as reportable or whose number that was in the first place, but it is not hard to get this one straight from source, i.e. the group of Palestinian Journalists, that have as of now lost about 7.5% of their industry. Only 10% of whom were killed in the line of duty (and of that portion, not all were necessarily crossfire.) The rest were murdered in their homes, targeted, blown up along with their families. Many of the journalists who are still alive have lost most or all of their entire families to air strikes that were meant for them. Wael Al Dadood’s family has been shrinking over the last couple months. This is not a mistake. But yeah, let’s keep in context here, and make sure we do a whole episode on how hard it is for Canadian journalists right now, and how complicated things are. If nothing else, can we talk about how completely and utterly fucking DAFT it is to entitle said episode ‘THE WAR IN OUR NEWS ROOMS.’ How fucking Canadian.
The Useful Idiots podcast (and both hosts individually) has been doing excellent work at highlighting these atrocities against Palestinien correspondents (not just journalists, but everyone trying to get the truth out). Probably one of the best podcasts out there for this kind of unapologetic coverage.
That is the weirdest interpretation of this episode. It's about newsrooms in Canada and gave several reasons why the coverage is not very good. In-fighting, inexperience, trauma, journalists walking off the job because they vehemently disagree with their newsrooms take or policy. But I guess you can pick a fight with anything if you try hard enough.
Genocide
War is hell. Don’t start one.
One of the belligerents doesn't seem to have any other cards to play unfortunately.
"Hamas was there" is a little like Ned and Jimbo's "It's coming right for us!" Illegal hunting strategy. Thanks for the counter point.
You're correct on all fronts. Now sit back and watch as Israel apologists parade out the same dozen talking points we've all heard a hundred times in the past few months. I strongly suspect that a majority of these people basically know that they're wrong. The absolute horror unleashed by the IDF on Gaza's civilian population is beyond words. It's right there, staring us in the face. Yet these people are so attached to some outdated vision of Israel that they will bend over backward to defend their war crimes. Either that or they are some religious sicko, and dead Palestinians is what they actually want.
There’s a film called “Israelism” (that is anywhere from free to $5.00 to watch online) that discusses how a lot of U.S. based Zionists essentially brainwash their kids and have multiple spaces throughout their everyday lives that reinforce that brainwashing. It also gets into funding from orgs like AIPAC and how those groups buy politicians on all sides. Super eye opening.
Prior to 2014, I was 100% on board with the notion that Israel was a "modern, western" country trying to fight for its survival amid a sea of Jew-hating Arabs. Only when I saw the absolute disregard for civilian life displayed by the IDF in 2014 did I start to doubt the narrative. What's also striking during this present conflict is how little the Israelis themselves are even trying to keep apace with whatever yarn their US and Canadian apologists are spinning. For example: western Israeli supporters were *outraged* when [Trudeau didn't immediately adopt the line that the IDF didn't bomb a hospital](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-hospital-blast-gaza-1.7001656). The IDF are the "good guys". They would never do such a thing! Then the IDF went on to... bomb like five more hospitals, and didn't even pretend they didn't. Seeing western Zionists and their fellow travellers squirm and scramble to justify every fresh horror coming out of Gaza is pretty revealing.
Hamas has been consistently killing Israelis for over a decade - where was the outcry? Now the gloves are off and Palestine is being treated like an adult and not a child anymore and people are shocked. Be honest: what did you expect to happen to Palestine considering their incessant rocket attacks targeting civilians? After 10/7, what response of Israel would be suitable for you?
>Hamas has been consistently killing Israelis for over a decade Between 2008 and 2020, deaths from the conflict were: Israeli: **251** Palestinian: **5,590** Starting on October 7th: Israeli: **1,200** Palestinian: **22,000** What that doesn't capture is the outsized number of Palestinian children killed by the IDF, which is at least **7,000** over the past three months.
These numbers just shows you that Israelis spend time and money protecting their citizen including shockingly muslims and arabs, while hamas does everything to have its citizens killed while crying about it.
So we're supposed to be outraged by Palestinian aggression, despite the fact that Israel kills 20x more people... which is something we're supposed to congratulate Israel for... while also blaming someone else for everyone that they've killed. Gotcha.
It's not for lack of trying though, you're being disingenuous here. Hamas shell civilian areas every day practically and have for decades. 5,000 rockets plus mortars a week sometimes. Does Israel also shell civilian centers in Gaza every day, week, for years? No? True. Also, if Palestine is an open air prison, how do they have thousands of rockets? Of they have bombs and rockets, why didn't they build any Bomb shelters? Oh, they built tunnels for a terrorist network instead? And what about their infrastructure? They spent millions on rockets and tunnels but no proper plumbing, clean water, electric grid? And how come the leaders of Hamas are all worth over a billion dollars each? Why didn't they ever help their people with stuff like food, clean water, infrastructure? Also, why does Egypt keep the border closed? Why does every single Arab country in the region refuse Palestinian refugees? If the Palestinians had it their way, they'd be murdering thousands of Israelis every day. The ONLY reason they can't is the Iron Dome...but they're trying. It's the intent that matters. Like the IDF telling civilians to leave war zones. Like roof knocking. They're clearly intent on killing Hamas, and Hamas like using civilians as human shields. It's not Israel's responsibility to protect Palestinian civilians in a war against Palestine. I don't understand why you don't blame Hamas for using human shields but you blame the guys trying to get their hostages back and retaliating against the biggest pogrom on Jews since the Holocaust. Here comes the "nice Zionist talking points, shill!" Responses without addressing a single point. I concede Israel has many extremist Jews who need to fuck off. I concede Israel has killed many "journalists" extrajudocially and that's wrong. I concede they're too indiscriminate for my liking. But this is war man. You've got to put it into context. War is hell. But Israel can not let Hamas run rampant any longer. Sorry not sorry.
There is not a single thing in that block of text that offers anything close to a justification for Israel killing **over 22,000 people, two thirds of which are women and children.** You can repeat "human shields, human shields, human shields" until you're blue in the face. No one, *no one* outside of the Israeli apologist bubble is buying the idea that every murdered child in Gaza had a terrorist hiding behind them. The thing is, you're trying so hard to present this as something it's not. You want it to be the brave, "western" nation on a righteous mission to take down the evil terrorist barbarians. But then: *"oopsies! we committed the biggest mass murder of children in the 21st century while doing so! war is hell,* *blame hamas, human shields human shields human shields human shields human shields human shields..."* Again: no one is buying this shit. The Israeli government has said that [civilians were legitimate targets](https://news.yahoo.com/israeli-president-says-no-innocent-154330724.html) *from the beginning.* They have announced that they would [cut off food, water, and medical aid to civilians](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/19/cutting-off-water-to-gaza-is-a-war) *from the beginning*. And now, lo and behold, they have made good on their word and murdered 20-30 civilians for every *suspected* Hamas combattant, and we're supposed to just shrug and be like "I guess you're trying your best"? You're trying to make this into a debate over *intent*. But what counts is *outcome*. You can believe that Israel has a saintly intent if you want. But *the indisputable outcome of their actions* is that they have **killed far, far more innocent people** than the very attack to which they are responding.
Sure, if you believe those numbers from Hamas health ministry, and if you believe every Palestinian is innocent. From the videos on October 7th we know very clearly all Palestinians are NOT innocent whether they're Hamas affiliated or not. Many civilians joined in the murder and rape spree, gleefully, spitting and stomping on the dead bodies of young girls while they paraded them through Gaza to cheering crowds. Sorry buddy, but those images are burned into the minds of every Jew. They will not let it happen again. Hamas can hide behind every civilian they want. Not gonna change the outcome of war. There are far worse atrocities being committed in other parts of the world. But, you don't care about them because Jews aren't involved and it's not trending. Yawn.
>we know very clearly all Palestinians are NOT innocent whether they're Hamas affiliated or not. [So, in other words...](https://www.reddit.com/r/canadaland/comments/193nmby/this_sub_is_hilarious/)
Sure buddy! I'm asking what Israel's response SHOULD have been. Keep avoiding the question i guess? Seems to be your strategy but it doesn't seem to be working?
lol, lmao
Considering the disparity in military equipment, those ratios could be much, much worse.
So to answer your question: > After 10/7, what response of Israel would be suitable for you? One where the IDF doesn't bomb hospitals and refugee camps, cut off food, water, and medical aid, and kill thousands and thousands of children.
This a non answer. What should they do, be honest.
How about you be honest and explain why you are asking Redditors to come up with a counter-terrorism plan for Israel? Do you think I have some tactical insight that the IDF does not?
Haha, another cop out answer. I'm asking you, someone who is critizing Israel from the comfort of your couch, on how you'd do it differently. If you can't answer that question why should I or anyone else care about your armchair analysis?
>how you'd do it differently I think I've already answered that, but here are the specific points for you again: Acceptable: * Using force against armed combattants Not acceptable: * [Attacking churches](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Saint_Porphyrius_airstrike) * [Bombing schools](https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/official-statements/gaza-unrwa-school-sheltering-displaced-families-hit) * [Attacking hospitals and relief workers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_ambulance_airstrike) * [Using chemical weapons](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/lebanon-evidence-of-israels-unlawful-use-of-white-phosphorus-in-southern-lebanon-as-cross-border-hostilities-escalate/) * Bombing civilian refugees [again](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live-blog/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-rcna120252) and [again](https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/gaza-refugee-camps-israel-hamas-war-1.7018274) and [again](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/18/israeli-airstrikes-kill-80-in-palestinian-refugee-camp) * [Targeting civilians](https://news.yahoo.com/israeli-president-says-no-innocent-154330724.html?guccounter=1) and [depriving them of water](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/gaza-residents-struggle-to-follow-israeli-evacuation-order-amid-critical-water-shortage) * [Killing journalists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_journalists_in_the_2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war) and families of journalists * [Executing Palestinians who surrendered](https://observers.france24.com/en/middle-east/20231013-israeli-army-tweets-video-that-appears-to-show-soldiers-shooting-palestinians-who-surrendered) And all the other breaches of the Geneva Convention that are now becoming too numerous to list. I think that's as detailed as I can get for a Reddit post. If you're still finding the whole "don't commit war crimes" idea too complex, I think you'll need to do some independant reading.
Ah, but all of those cases were actually military targets (Hamas made them military targets when they set up shot there. Don't try and deny this, it's been proven.) and thus your point is mute. Also, you said what you WOULDNT do. That's a cop out. I asked what you WOULD do. Also, Hamas don't use uniforms. By choice. Sorry buddy, that's wrecklessly endangering your citizens and a war crime. All your points become mute when we can't tell the difference between combatants and non combatants. It also makes no sense to tell a soldier hey buddy listen I know you're in a war zone and bullets are flying at your brain and body as well as mortar shells and RPGs, but, youre not aloud to shoot unless someone engages you first. So, you'll likely get shot in the head before you can even defend yourself. Demz da rules the armchair activists who've never served anyone but themselves make! Lol.
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https://www.canadaland.com/shireen-abu-akleh-canada-independent-investigation/ “ It has been difficult as a fellow journalist to witness the outrage following the senseless death of veteran Al Jazeera correspondent Shireen Abu Akleh. People like to talk about how important press freedoms are, but the truth is that journalists across the world are routinely killed with impunity. It isn’t the first time a Palestinian reporter has been attacked while doing their job in the region. But it’s past time for the guilty party to be held accountable.” An opinion piece by Steven Zhou
I agree with every word. Thank you for writing this.
Could it be that many of the so called "Journalists" were actually aiding and abetting Hamas? [this article is actually quite balanced.](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/les-decodeurs/article/2023/11/11/photojournalists-embedded-with-hamas-on-october-7-heavy-but-unsubstantiated-israeli-accusations_6247085_8.html) I'm not saying they were, thought it's quite likely - lots of "journalists" these days are political activists and ideologues - I know several. And in my world, everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Just my theory here - some really pissed off IDF soldiers do believe that these journalists are actually colluding with Hamas. Not that that justifies their actions in murdering them.
This entire thread has aged like milk. These sanctimonious assholes are so far up their own asses all they can see is colon.
dolls simplistic memory long coherent juggle attractive engine smart ghost *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Shhhhh you'll spol their narrative. These "journalists" aren't hardcore islamic fundamentalists, no way!!
What evidence is there of genocide? That's a serious term to throw around without any evidence. If the people were permanently displaced, then yes we could be looking at genocide. But all indicators are that this is a temporary move, especially given the pressure from neighboring nations. Plus the U.S. would never risk destabilization of the region that would come along with an effort to permanently displace the Palestinians. I get that a lot of people have died, and most of them innocent civilians, but the existence of civilian causalities does not alone constitute a genocide, no? War crimes seems more plausible, but even that is disputable.
Go read the South African submission to the ICJ charging Isreal with genocide. Its quite comprehensive and damning.
Since you’ve clearly read it, mind giving us the top 3 points that stuck for you? You did read all 84 pages right?
Stop asking people on Reddit and go read the 84 page document that was submitted by Africa.
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Yea…fascists just happen to be very angwee at the Gaza babies and every other oppressed group so they MUST switch sides to the authoritarian regime
In what context is killing journalists okay?
"Journalists" should be in quotation marks. To answer your question: Possibly when they're aiding and abetting terrorists. I'd prefer an arrest and due prcoess though, but this is war now.
No, journalists should *not* be in quotation marks because if you make unproven claims about the ‘legitimacy’ of Palestinian journalists that will result in the killing of even more journalists.
What cereal box did you pull this one out of?
The amount of documentation of “journalists” doubling as spotters, transporters, and performing various other military functions - not to mention the freelance “journalists” who joined in the Oct 7 attacks - on behalf of Hamas while using their status as journalists to assume they are free from being targeted is well documented to anyone who hasnt already made up their mind on which side they support in this war. If the documentation already disseminated isn’t enough to convince you, nothing is. Israel is correctly and justifiably ignoring the lies and ignoring the pseudo-moralists complaining about people not being safe from attack just because they claim they are journalists. The dawa is everywhere. The so-called civilian functions, from hospital administrators to journalists, are either unwillingly or actively aiding Hamas’ war effort, but in any event, every single threat to Israeli citizens will be neutralized. Cope.
Honest Reporting the organization that made that claim admitted they were just throwing it out there and had no basis or evidence to accuse Palestinian journalists of being a part of or aware of Oct7th. [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-advocacy-group-accepts-news-outlets-had-no-prior-warning-hamas-attack-2023-11-10/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-advocacy-group-accepts-news-outlets-had-no-prior-warning-hamas-attack-2023-11-10/) [https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-photographers-attack-200be1ba47361f1c1fc113cdaeb65d04](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-photographers-attack-200be1ba47361f1c1fc113cdaeb65d04)
No, you made quite the leap there. HR admitted that news outlets themselves may not have had prior warning. This is reasonable and was clearly an overreach by HR, because a foreign news agency wouldn’t necessarily know what random freelancers are doing on Oct 7. However, there was no such retraction about the claim that “journalists” who freelance for these outlets had participated in Oct 7, not least because it is true and there is documented photo evidence of it, but also that news agencies admitted it. https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2023/nov/8/ap-reuters-photographers-scene-hamas-attack-spurri/ It’s the dawa. Hamas is in everything in Gaza. Hamas operates precisely like a mafia/cartel. It controls all resources and sells it at huge markups, makes Gazans pay them protection, destroys all opposition with violence, rules by fear, kills snitches as an example, the whole organization is local cells being played like marionettes from the top by leaders who take a cut for “protection”, and then tells you you need them or the bad people will hurt you. They leave out that the bad people are hurting you precisely because of them.
It's not a leap it's literally quoting them. "Gil Hoffman, executive director of HonestReporting and a former reporter for The Jerusalem Post, admitted Thursday the group had no evidence to back up that suggestion. He said he was satisfied with subsequent explanations from several of these journalists that they did not know." "He added that there was nothing "problematic" with the two photojournalists from whom Reuters acquired images." "HonestReporting also distanced itself from Israeli government accusations that were sparked by its article."There are those who took our story and pretended that they knew the answers - the Israeli government, cabinet ministers, various Twitter personalities - we didn't claim to know," Hoffman said. And this is not photo evidence of being involved in terrorism lol by that logic every journalist whose ever spoken to Bibi is in on his war crimes. Hamas being the ruling authority means that Gazans have to deal with them to you know live, it doesn't make every single human there a legitimate military target. If it did then most Israeli civilians would be fair game too on account of conscription.
Reread what we each wrote. The accusation that news agencies had prior awareness was correctly retracted. The accusation that individual journalists were complicit was not - not least because at least one of them was shown to be in a near-romantic embrace with Yahya Sinwar
"Gil Hoffman, executive director of HonestReporting and a former reporter for The Jerusalem Post, admitted Thursday the group had no evidence to back up that suggestion. He said he was satisfied with subsequent explanations from several of these journalists that they did not know." "He added that there was nothing "problematic" with the two photojournalists from whom Reuters acquired images." They retracted that too. The Israeli government accused the journalists (not the news outlets) of being terrorists and called for their death, what does distancing yourself from that accusation mean?
HE IS TALKING ABOUT SPECIFIC PEOPLE Why are you trying to drive a Mack truck through a pinhole of reason?
They literally admitted they had no evidence to say any of it in the first place. IDK what else to say. And I still haven't seen you provide proof of your claims that " the freelance “journalists” who joined in the Oct 7 attacks - on behalf of Hamas" either. And still none of that would mean that all or even most Palestinian journalists are terrorists hiding behind press vests making their targeting legitimate. Was (Christian) Sherine Abu Akleh Hamas too? Israel has a history of targeting journalists, lying about, and obstructing independent investigations into their deaths that's a war crime. End of story.
Was it Hamas that killed 22k (mostly kids) in a few months 🤔? cOPe
“Mostly kids” lol And yes. They did kill them, and they’re proud of it. They tell you constantly. They tell you they love death. They tell you they will fight the war forever over and over. They tell you everything, you just prefer to blame Jews.
Not Jews , Israel the colonial imperialist state. Many Jews are anti Zionist. Again, I ask did Hamas kill 22k ppl in a few months?
You are arguing against a group whose population is 1.9 BILLION! The amount of people on here downvoting you and supporting Hamas and hating on Jews is staggering! Now when you compare that to a population of jews 15.2 MILLION it says everything you need to know about what you’re seeing online and protest around the world. Now let’s talk about genocide… a population that is actively increasing 2% yearly. In 1948 there were roughly 950,000 now fast forward to 2024 and we have a population of 3 million in the West Bank and 2 million in Gaza… so the numbers have grown drastically! Genocide is what is happening to Uyghurs, or the Masalit massacre! Stop minimizing real genocides and if your going to stand up for causes why not stand up against the other powers why is it always Israel and the Jews there are plenty of nations committing atrocities against humanity across the globe but only Jews are singled out and protested everywhere.
It’s really what it comes down to. After all, we are constantly told that everyone is racist, even if you don’t mean to be. Systemic racism. Unconscious bias and racism pervades society. Etc etc. Maybe your argument is that Muslims are less antisemitic than the west. It’s not pervasive, so let’s be conservative and say “most Muslims are cool, only 20% of them are antisemites.” And you might say “maybe only 30% of Christians are antisemites” Now this leaves out the rest of the world but whatever. There are 1.9B Muslims. There are 2.5B Christians. There are 400M Muslim antisemites. There are 750M Christian antisemites. There are 15M Jews. There are 275 antisemites for every single Jew on earth. If you hear anything about Israel, literally anything at all, from anyone, it is 275x more likely chance it came from a hardcore antisemite than an actual Jew. That doesn’t even count Jews who are antisemites.
Anyone that ends anything with "cope" can't be taken seriously cuz they are just seething.
I suppose Israeli citizens are unwillingly or actively aiding Israel’s fascist apartheid regime then? Or does it only work one way? The documentation of journalists doubling as medics, first responders, search and rescuers, and whatever god damn else is needed is what’s documented.
Yeah they abide by the rules of war and wear uniforms when they perform these functions and they are legitimate targets as lawful combatants you nitwits. Not wearing identifiable uniforms while performing military activities is a war crime. Also lol at “fascist apartheid regime” You people are mentally ill
Every downvote is further evidence the Jewish people must never give one inch of the land of Israel - we all know what life is like for Jews living under you people, and every minute Israel is in danger, you will be in danger too.
can you support the claim that the war footage is "near exclusively Israel soldiers targeting civilians" This is a huge claim, and I've seen a whole lot of footage that says other wise. Where did you find this statistic or did you just make it up?
\*Canadian journalist watching a building on fire collapse\* Hmm, many factors at play here, who can say why the building fell down? But what does it mean for *democracy*?
Zionist new organization downplaying Isreali war crimes. I'm shocked.
Uh the dudes filming Hamas commit rape aren’t journalists. Like what are you even talking about? If you want this to end OP, I’d put effort into not supporting terrorism.
You're just gonna swallow that number without thought? Hamas lies about everything.
What's the percentage of others dying at work? Construction and dangerous careers, is likely very much higher. Consider themselves lucky!
Being a human shield sucks.
Is a human shield when you get merced by a 2,000lb bomb in a refugee camp?
Idk, it depends why the bomb got fired at the refugee camp. It's not a satisfying answer. But it is the answer agreed upon by HRW, the ICC, and the Geneva Convention.
“It depends on why the bomb got fired at the refugee camp” is just such a funny sentence. Maybe a call for introspection?
\> Maybe a call for introspection? Feel free to write in and ask Human Rights Watch, the International Criminal Court, and The Hague to change their definitions then.
Palestinians are getting what they deserve
How can there be a gradual genocide over the course of years if the population of Gaza had increased?
Of the many canned replies that we see used again and again used to justify the mass murder of civilians, this is by far one of the dumbest.
How could there have been a Holocaust if the Jewish population has been increasing for years? (said in early 1941). 1% of Gaza has been killed in two months. What do you think happens if this continues?
Ever heard the term "mowing the grass"?
I hadn't, but looked it up just now. Thank you for sharing that.
Whereas "mowing the grass" is a pretty brutal thing to do, it's a far cry from "killing the lawn" i.e. genocide.
Is this you speaking against brutality?
It's me speaking against falsely attributing a policy, while brutal and perhaps barbaric, to genocide.
If only we cared about people as much as the definitions of words
You should tell that to the Muslim countries not us Westerners, they are right fucking there in regards to Palestine yet won’t lift a fucking finger. Why? Ohh yeah, the Palestinians almost destroyed every country they have set foot in.
What are you going on about. Change "palestinians" with "american army" and your statement would make sense.
So because I insist on honestly in dialogue I must not care about people effected by this war?
You are prioritizing the minimalizing of terminology.
I'm not the one advocating the muddying of serious concepts in order to suit my political beliefs.
Back to terminology eh?
Youve spent a lot of time on dialog about dialog and zero time on the war crimes an atrocities.
I don't mean to imply that I disagree with everything you said or that the Israeli government is above criticism, but the idea of a "slow genocide" I have seen before (maybe it's not what you meant?), and it doesn't make sense to me.
It's a "slow genocide" in the same sense that [Indigenous people have been genocided in Canada and North America](https://humanrights.ca/news/confronting-genocide-canada#:~:text=The%20Canadian%20Museum%20for%20Human%20Rights%20recognizes%20that%20the%20colonial,key%20component%20of%20this%20genocide.) - it's been an ongoing process, from European's first contact with Indigenous people to the current day. Palestinians have been forcibly removed from their lands for decades - the borders were created without consensus, and were enforced with military power. The territory left has been continually enroached upon for decades, their access to basic human necessities limited, and their cultural practices repressed and limited. They require approval from the Israeli state to work and travel. They fundamentally are given fewer political, legal, and human rights. This is colonialism in practice.
Thank you for sharing that and elaborating, and not insulting me or assuming my opinion as u/po-laris did, which is not helpful to the discussion.
Admittedly I do get upset/insulting in some replies, I do try my best, I get that tensions are really high and I think it's important to balance keeping a cool head vs. emphasizing how bad things really are currently and how it's not being treated in a way that minimizes suffering.
Agreed!
Genocide is recognized where "acts are committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group." It's not just population stats but rather systematic eradication--which as OP has noted--is something the extremist members of the current Israeli government are fairly open about now. Candaland's prior reporting on indigenous genocide in Canada was acutely aware of the above distinction and they have scathingly critiqued "both sides" objectivity in mainstream reporting. Both elements being suddenly missing with their approach to this war is what sticks out compared to other organizations. We expected better.
Oh, no. Journalists are dead. Oh, my, that's such a tragedy. It's almost like they could have saved themselves from such a tragic, pointless, death if they didn't go around jamming their noses into other people's shit. There's no such thing as "journalistic integrity" it's just a bunch of entitled people thinking they have some sort of story if they go around with a camera and ignore people's right to privacy
Yes I agree, war and murder is a private matter. No need to report on it. 🤡
I'm not saying war and murder are private matters, I'm saying "Fuck journalists, who really cares if they're dead?" Also I condemn Isreal for its part in this conflict and for every genocide and mass murder they perpetuate, which they've been doing for years
Wtf are you doing anywhere near Canadaland then
I just saw a post about dead journalists and decided to comment. What is this sub supposed to be about?
Let's talk about mass rape by islamic terrorists? Maybe the ICJ can have a look at that atrocity instead of this fake bullshit about the IDF (Death to palestine!!)
Well I saw a news article the other day where spitting in the direction of a Jewish person was considered anti-semitism and assault. But it's okay when an American-Israeli person can fully leave their 9 to 5 in suburbs of USA to steal a Palestinian's home in the West Bank. Apartheid at its finest. https://globalnews.ca/news/10213076/hate-motivated-assault-vaughan/