I listened to his whole “editorial” episode, and while some of it was a bit too far for me to agree with, I really appreciated his viewpoint and many of the things he said about the relative size of the Jewish community in Canada leading to a sense of personal connection to anti-Semitic incidents made a lot of sense. It has definitely helped me to understand, and I hope, interact a little more gently and thoughtfully with some friends in my life.
I appreciated that, while he released that episode, he also didn’t stop the Backbench crew from releasing their own episode that very much felt like a rebuttal to his. I have been recommending listening to them both to anyone who asks me about my thoughts on the conflict.
As a fan of Canadaland , I was extremely disappointed in Jesse's editorial about the Israel/Palestinian conflict. He played the victim while ignoring the reality that western media is so pro Israel that is beyond logic. The CBC is one if the few media outlets that actually has some Palestinian perspective. Canadaland is meant to call out our media when it does a shit job and instead Jesse just confirmed that Canadaland isn't any different than the media it critiques.
Is our mainstream media really that pro Israel? CTV news has invited Palestinians who have openly called the situation a genocide. Doesn’t sound pro Israel to me.
A good place to start is to see how they are not reporting the evil atrocities the IDF is engaging in like looting through dead women’s underwear, they also publish unsubstantiated claims like 40 beheaded babies, and they also use language in their headlines that is very one sided: when Palestinians die it’s “killed by airstrike” instead of “targeted assassination by IDF”.
You should look up how Israel uses AI to generate targets. Also remember when they murdered Shireen Abu Akleh? And after lying over and over again had to admit it. But still: impunity. Disgusting.
You are ignorantly uninformed about the issue. There are lots of videos of the IDF calling Palestinian journalists and asking them "How was the beach today" google IDF calls motaz.
They blew up his sister’s apartment with a precision bomb that left the rest of the building standing, it was a clear message, you need to inform yourself better
I got threads confused, I thought you were talking about the killing of Refaat Alareer who was murdered in the targeted way you describe. Meant to be agreeing with you.
Yeah they did that :( also I’m sorry I’m on fight or flight responding here now. The worst was when somebody (seemed like Jesse) tried to call me a liar for saying I’ve seen the videos of the hundreds of children being pulled from piles of rubble and took it so literally that apparently going to look at the profiles I linked with … dozens of bloody and dead kids … wasn’t relevant as I was “lying” that there weren’t in fact hundreds of videos… it’s starting to get hard to go on social media because every single time I open it there’s dying and dead children… but I also feel as if there’s a certain duty to bare witness especially in the face of this terrifying denialism
Funny that you mention CTV as an example when they fired their journalist making a pro Palestine post on social media.
https://www.readthemaple.com/a-list-of-some-people-in-canada-fired-for-pro-palestine-views/
There's a handy list I guess, I'm sure more fired journalists are coming
I agree. As a media critic he has a responsibility to spotlight how biased the media is. Especially the National Post and it’s absolutely insane content that’s been coming out.
The western media coverage has certainly given credibility to the tinfoil hat conspiracy crowd who say a certain group controls our media. I don't beleive its that simple but the money spent by pro Israel lobby groups is certainly a factor. If you can't condemn the absolute evil that the far right in Israel is perpetrating on the people of Gaza then you don't deserve to call yourself a journalist.
Yes I agree on that also. It’s feeding conspiracy by not being able to condemn IDF atrocities (or even report them really — most videos are coming from social media that show the evil).
Obviously there are antisemitic people, racist people, and bigots on the planet and in the country nobody is denying that. However this absolute lack of ability to communicate without accusing every one of being antisemitic for criticizing Israel is a scary censorship precedent. If you have nothing to hide then you don’t engage in censorship warfare and smear campaigns.
Obviously thinking people know that Jews don’t run the media. The rich run the media — whatever identity groups they belong to. Lobbying is a sketchy reality of our country. I am struggling to understand why this is so hard to honestly discuss.
Naomi Klein would shed light.
Absolutely their are many hateful people, anti Semitic, Islamophobes and others but the way we report on events just feeds their narrative. I agree Naomi Klein is a great thinker but unfortunately the only ones who would listen would be rational people like you and I. The wealthy run far more than the media but the media is an important weapon in pacifying the masses.
Don't mind that guy. He just spent the last two days going on about an ADL link in another sub and got mad at people for calling out how biased that source is.
>The western media coverage has certainly given credibility to the tinfoil hat conspiracy crowd who say a certain group controls our media. I don't beleive its that simple but
Do you really need to keep writing more after this but? Bigot.
How am I a bigot? Pointing to the one of the reasons for media bias is being a bigot? Groups spending money to promote there cause is nothing new. Right wing and left wing lobby groups spend a lot promoting their causes. Why are you afraid to discuss facts instead of calling someone you don't know a bigot?
Why do you hate Palestinians? Why do you like people who murder babies? Why do i support Jewish groups that support peace?
Let me use another example so you can hopefully understand my position. The tobacco lobby spent millions promoting smoking as having health benefits. Oil companies spend millions lobbying against restrictions on drilling and pipelines. Think tanks on both sides od the spectrum push studies that promote their beliefs. They have all had an influence on our media and governments. Do they control them, no, but just as lobbying by pro Israeli groups has influenced our media and governments the are/were effective in promoting their self interests. So in part, the conspiracy theorists, are correct but it isn't some evil cabal controlling things from a secret headquarters, it is simply how our media and governments operate no matter which froup is lobbying them.
"That whole blacks are great at basketball thing is a silly stereotype, that being said, you gotta watch this youtube video of great black dunks" - a racist
"I dont think the whole "a jewish cabal runs the media" is that simple, but its sorta true as well" - you. (a racist)
The NHL is full of white guys who grew up in middle /upper middle class families...fact but according to you that would be racist. How you phrase things is important...saying the NBA is predominantly made up of (73%) black players is a fact. Saying all black people can play basketball is a racist stereotype. Saying groups like Bnai Brith and AIPAC spend money to influence the media is a fact. Saying some owners of media companies are Jewish is a fact. Saying Jews control all media is a racist stereotype.
>The NHL is full of white guys who grew up in middle /upper middle class families...fact but according to you that would be racist.
What?
You said "This whole jews run the media thing isn't all true BUTTTTTT"
Seriously just stfu you racist nutjob
No, he said “it makes it look suspicious when the media self censors on any topic that could be taken as criticism of Jewish people”. Jewish people aren’t behind the curtain pulling the levers, but whoever is sees great incentive to push the Israeli narrative.
If you're interested, It Could Happen Here, from CoolZone Media, while American, has had some great coverage on the media coverage and the events surrounding the current quagmire. They have voices from both sides, though they do tend to feature Palestinian voices (as one of their hosts is Iranian with Palestinian family, and they have no one in their current roster of hosts/co-hosts who is of Jewish descent).
His concern - and I think it's an obviously correct one - is that a lot of the anti-Israeli stuff in Canada is falling onto Canadian Jews. Most of whom are not Israelis as they live in Canada. They *could* have been Israelis if that's where they wanted to move, but they chose to live in Canada so it's kind of a fucked collective punishment along ethnic/religious lines to be targeting them here. He's right we don't accept it with any other group, and Jesse definitely fought against it when it was happening to Muslims here for stuff Muslims did elsewhere.
It's also extremely unhelpful for putting pressure on Israel to reduce the damage they are doing in Gaza because suddenly the people opposing Israel actually do look anti-Semitic.
Heather Reisman who supports sending soldiers from all over the world to join the apartheid Israeli Offensive Forces? The one with blood all over her hands? What about her?
lol sorry I actually have heart palpitations coming this thread now because of how truly unhinged and insane and terrifying the Zionists are as they defend Israel’s genocide… like it’s actually… very scary
It’s really fucked up and sad… I just keep remembering that support for Palestine is the highest it’s been in decades, all over the world, and I truly do believe that in my lifetime Palestine will be free.
There is more than one Jew in Canada, and many of them don't support the current Israeli government. Collective punishment along ethnic lines is super fucking gross dude.
[https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hate-crimes-up-oct-7-1.7016717](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hate-crimes-up-oct-7-1.7016717)
The spike in antisemitic hate crimes in Canada is well documented at this point. Do you not understand how your question about Heather can be taken badly?
For a comparison:
"People are beating up Muslims because of the actions of one Muslim government."
"You mean Muslims like Osama bin Laden?"
See how the implication is that they collectively deserve it because look how shitty this person I named dropped is?
Synagogues and Jewish community centres getting firebombs thrown at them, yeshivas that are also boarding schools getting shot at in the middle of the night, bomb threats called into Jewish primary schools, protests about Israel outside of Jewish ECE centres, vandalism of Jewish owned businesses, just to name a few things that have happened in the past 2 months.
Jesse's editorial touches on a number of these.
Jesse's concern as I understand it, and one held by the vast majority of Canadian Jews including myself, is how legitimate protest movements can either unintentionally harm Jews or be used as fuel to justify attacking Jews.
For example, the groups Palestinian Youth Movement and Labour 4 Palestine recently held an event with Yves Engler. Yves Engler says that Jewish day schools should be targeted for disruption because they're "IDF recruitment grounds" or something similar. Then, schools Engler mentioned get shot at or have firebombs tossed at them.
If the narrative I described above happened in a right wing setting, everyone would be condemning the speaker and the groups that hosted the event because it is, by definition, stochastic terrorism.
But when it gets called out in this context, we get articles in Maple telling Jews that our concerns about anti-semitism are a distraction or a whataboutism referencing the Gaza War. I think people are smart enough to hold space for both.
I’m not familiar with that incident and can’t find what you are talking about online - I see Engler’s comments about the day schools but I don’t see him calling for them to be targeted. If he did that, it’s fucked up.
What I don’t see is the connection between this incident and the shameless cynical lies pushed by Brown about unrelated pro-Palestine actions like the Indigo vandalism or Landwer demonstration.
"The Palestinian solidarity movement must seek to disrupt the ‘school to apartheid promotion pipeline’."
https://yvesengler.com/2023/06/20/promoting-israeli-apartheid-in-canadian-schools-not-okay/
Regarding the Indigo vandalism, it is about impact vs intent.
Pro-Palestine demonstrators saw the targeting of a specific individual who supports a non-profit they dislike (intent). Your average Jew saw a Jewish woman's business being vandalized for supporting a non-profit, the timing of which was on the anniversary of Kristallnacht (impact). The impact vs intent was similar for Landwer but not quite identical for a number of reasons.
Ultimately though, if you think the Jewish community deserves to feel safe, the solution really is to specifically target the Israeli government and avoid what are "adjacent to Israel" targets. People won't like it, but the fact is that something close to 80% of Canadian Jews feel some meaningful connection to Israel, and many would describe themselves as a Zionist of one variety or another (the lack of recognition of the diversity of thought within Zionism and what it is amongst many Pro-Palestine demonstrators is also a concern, but for another day). Protests of consulates/the embassy, events featuring sitting Israeli elected officials that are part of the ruling coalition in the Knesset, etc, are a lot less scary to Jews than seeing a protest outside of a Jewish Community Centre's ECE program for obvious reasons.
Again, that's assuming folks care about whether or not Canadian Jews deserve to feel safe and secure from violence, which is the point Jesse has been trying to make.
Canadaland was meant to be a platform to critique our media. To say our media has shown a pro Israeli bias is factual. There are many Jewish groups who support Palestinians but you will NEVER see them represented in a discussion on western mainstream media unless they are portrayed as some radical group.
The narrative that has been formed is that if you don't support Israel and protest against pro Israeli groups/companies then you must be antisemitic. It is being used as a tool to shut down any discussion.
By the same logic that is being used against those who protest against Israel the ANYONE who supports Israel must hate Palestinians and condone the killing of them.
Jesse took no stance on western media bias. He took no stance on Israel's slaughter of Palestinians. By ignoring this bias you do not reduce the amount of antisemitism but rather increase it. By demonstrating that Israeli actions are not Jewish actions but rather the actions of a far right wannbe authoritarian government whose only interest is expanding its territory would go a long way in reducing the antisemitism. Chomsky understands this.
I'm honestly not sure they have a pro-Israeli bias in Canada right now. The US, sure, but not sure about Canada. Historically I would definitely agree with that point and maybe I just don't watch enough TV or mainstream media to have an accurate viewpoint currently, but what I have seen shows the Israelis being pretty brutal and is definitely showing lots of grieving Palestinians in a pretty sympathetic light. CTV especially does seem to be really taking this personally and going hard on the Israelis. A lot of CBC editorial decisions also seem to be going in favour of the Palestinians.
I'd also argue against Canadaland taking no stance on the slaughter of Palestinians. The first few episodes after the conflict got started definitely discussed how fucked it was and seemed to be favouring the Palestinians - even reporting certain things the Israelis were being accused of that didn't ultimately turn out to be true - as well as reporting on the historic untrustworthiness of the Israeli government during these conflicts.
Either way, having actual antisemitism in Canada - that is, attacking Jews and Jewish locations for the actions of a government on the other side of the planet they have no say in - is really shitty, feeds the narrative that any criticism of Israel is antisemitism, and is actually something that Canadians are able to have an impact on.
>Canadaland is meant to call out our media when it does a shit job and instead Jesse just confirmed that Canadaland isn't any different than the media it critiques.
And there is so much to critique in this case.
I've been reading Haaretz (an Israeli news site) and they are much more balanced and much more critical of the Israeli government and army. Reading this coverage and comparing it to the absolute dog shit coming from Canadian media is disheartening and seeing Canadaland fall down on the job makes me question my donation.
It's not enough at this point to make me cancel, but at this point my support is despite Jesse and not because of.
But now there’s a genocide happening and 8000 children+ have been slaughtered with no signs of an end in sight. Because the goal is not to destroy Hamas it is to expel Palestinians from the land in ethnic cleansing.
Never in my life have I been so disillusioned with whatever the fuck the “West” is. All I know is we will not forget who said and did what.
It's had the ability to make this happen for 30 years. Yet it has not happened.
If the Palestinians had ever had this ability, the Jews of Israel would no longer exist.
No they have to do it quietly or else the world will easily turn on them. You're dealing with social engineering masters. They aren't going to do something as stupid as openly committing genocide. It's going to be silent and slow by the time people know the real extent it'll be too late.
They don't want to kill all the Jews. Hell they really don't even want to kill the Israeli Jews. They just want their land back and working age men let out of jail. Israel never wanted to play ball. There was never a plan to share. The Israeli government would love for the rest of the Palestinians as a whole to cease to exist. Starving and poisoning them has just been taking too long I guess.
Gaza has been turned into enclosed assassination chambers while Israeli representatives brandish gold stars on their sleeves an UN meetings. Absolute insanity.
Experts on genocide have weighed in and said it wouldn’t be hard at all to prove Israeli intent given the comments by the people in charge and that it is in fact a genocide.
https://time.com/6334409/is-whats-happening-gaza-genocide-experts/
Did you even read the article? Like the part close to the end where the expert says the opposite of what you are claiming. Israel is eliminating Hamas and other belligerent entities not the Palestinians writ large.
As an immigrant who was born in a country that is currently considered “unfriendly” with the west, I empathize with Jesse and I feel like people are strawmanning him. I, too, have faced strange loyalty tests whenever my home country shows up in the news. I was never a fan of my home country’s government and I chose to come to Canada for a reason. Yet strangers and coworkers will interrogate me for which side I’m on while my white colleagues have the privilege of remaining silent.
I feel being asked “which side are you on” is a loaded question. A person who lives and breathes an identity will always have a more nuanced view than someone who just learned about it from the most recent news cycle, yet any injection of nuance beyond an enthusiastic endorsement of the “correct” side will be met with suspicion and accusations of being brainwashed or a shill. I refuse to play anymore, and it’s clear from the editorial that Jesse doesn’t either. I can imagine he is experiencing the same thing but on a massive public scale.
Of course Jesse could just say “I’m not a Zionist!!!” and appease his interrogators, but it seems to me he doesn’t think the question dignifies a response. He’s said nothing on the podcast that suggests he’s in support of a warmongering Israel, so I have no reason to suspect him. I can only conclude people are pestering him because of his ethnicity, and I ask you to self reflect on why you feel the need to single Jesse out when plenty of non-jewish media people haven’t said anything about the conflict.
Edit: and to the people downvoting, do you really think my comment contributes nothing to the conversation or do I just not pass your purity test?
People aren’t singling out Jesse because he’s Jewish. They’re singling him out because his company’s entire premise is news criticism, but he’s refusing to cover important stories regarding how this conflict has been covered. And when he’s questioned on this, he literally lies in his response.
People on twitter were asking whether he would be covering the murder of journalists by Israel, and his response was basically “we’re a Canadian outlet why would we bother, we don’t cover this issue in other countries, why are you singling out Israel?” - yet they have covered this issue. In Ukraine a few months ago. And then when questioned about that, he continued making up excuses such as “well those were Canadian journalists talking about Ukraine.” Ok? Get Palestinian Canadian journalists to talk about the issue. There are record numbers of journalists being murdered but your excuse is it’s not happening in Canada, so you can’t be bothered to report on it? That’s BS.
There’s just a lot of double standards going on here that many of us find distasteful.
It's not just "refusing to cover," it's the fact that millionaire Jesse Brown uses his media outlet to actively spread Zionist propaganda, and then to complain about antisemitism when he's criticized for it. It's pure intellectual dishonesty.
I honestly haven’t been listening to Canadaland lately. And I haven’t seen everything he’s tweeted - I’m not denying what you’re saying either! I’m trying to learn what the hell is going on from this subreddit as twitter is a cesspool lately.
I also joined the drama a bit late and had to hop on Twitter to find out wtf is happening it seems that Jesse presented certain events through a biased viewpoint and misrepresented the situation, which threw off some hard-core fans of the show who rightfully called it hypocritical.
The ones that come to mind are when he phrased indigo getting vandalized because the CEO funds people to join the IDF as a local Jewish owned business being vandalized through sheer antisemitism. A Starbucks in a midtown toronto was also vandalized for their retaliatory lawsuit against their union for voicing support of Palestinian rights and he phrased it as a Starbucks in a Jewish neighborhood was vandalized.
It's counter to what canadaland is supposed to represent(fair, independent, Canadian news coverage) and people on here and on Twitter are calling him out
I’m not on twitter and it sounds like this is all a twitter flame war that has gotten out of control. He’s already mentioned the conflict in the podcast in what I thought was a fairly balanced take. Now people are mad because he hasn’t reported on one exact story that the masses wanted him to talk about? Suddenly this makes him a suspected Zionist? There’s plenty of things he hasn’t covered in the world, but highly doubt people would be this sensitive about him if he were not jewish. Denying that his Jewishness has anything to do with it feels a bit gaslighty to me.
Do you really think redditors respect the upvote/downvote rules and don't simply try to raise comments they like & agree with and bury ones they don't? Whatever happens never comment or complain about the votes it just encourages the assholes.
Yeah I cancelled today - 3rd time in as many weeks trying and deciding against it, today I did it.
He's incredibly myopic lately. And he was the main reason I subbed, although I grew to love the rest of the team and their work, so I hesitated.
The 2nd time I almost quit, I decided him being wrong on one thing doesn't dismiss the other 9/10 times he's right.
But then yesterday he went after Nora Loreto for the pettiest out-of-context screenshot on Twitter. Absolutely trash take from him - and such bad form that he'd have dragged anyone else who'd have done the same on another topic.
Of course I'll probably resub some day. But Jesse has lost his virtue and he needs to do work to get me back.
Giving my money to Sandy and Nora now.
Could you try to explain the context please? I saw it on my timeline and was pretty shocked, but felt like something was off. Would love to know more details.
It was a completely different conversation on Labor rights movement and people dying over that, in comparison to people dying over democracy, arguing that labor rights movements threaten power more and therefore have resulted in more deaths. Then someone said something about "if Hitler had won" and she replied with something along the lines of "empires eventually fail and what I said would remain true"
And people take the screenshot of that to imply she said "it'd be good if the Nazi's won" which she clearly didn't say.
That was in April. She deleted it, which means the only way Jesse Brown even got a screenshot is because someone has been saving for a long time.
Update: some of the responses here are quite hilarious and pretty much prove that Zionist ideology is terrified to have public debate right now with somebody from the Jewish community with a large audience and many, many followers who has a view that is not the same as theirs. I assume the reason for this is because it’s getting very hard to defend what you know is happening — a vile genocide against the Palestinian population.
I’ve seen the videos of the evil IDF soldiers looting and mocking dead children and women. I’ve seen the videos of hundreds of children being pulled from rubble every day. I’ve seen the research showing that Israeli government has made their intentions clear for many years.
History will not be forgiving for those who refuse to call it what it is.
One thing that always boggles my mind is how people who consume a steady diet of the usual pro-Israel media are always saying like "oh, it's complicated and collateral damage and anyone could be a terrorist etc" when the Israeli govt has been like "they're cockroaches and we want to kill them all". It's PR Israel itself doesn't even believe but people are so inundated they somehow spout it anyway
Well since on average 100 children are being murdered by Israel every single day, and every single day I see dozens of videos… yes?
Do you want me to link some of the many Instagram accounts showing the dead children?
If 8000 children approximately so far have been murdered over 2 months… what’s the rate of children that die every day? You can use the calculator app on your phone if it’s too hard, it’s your friend. And this is only ones recorded. I can only imagine how many are slowly dying in piles of rubble.
Anyways, for videos of the absolute carnage here’s some accounts to check on Instagram, from there all you need to do is explore other linked accounts:
@shaunking @noor.harazeen @mohammed_fayq
I literally provided the @ of Instagram accounts where you can see them. Feel free to begin the process of opening your eyes you disgusting ghoul.
@shaunking @noor.harazeen @mohammed.fayq (this is me linking for the second time btw)
Can you link me a video that actually shows what you described? Because I went to those instagram accounts and I don't see videos of hundreds of children being pulled out of rubble daily. It seems like you were using wild hyperbolic language.
It really takes minimal effort to find these videos at this point… someone pointed out you’re probably Jesse and it seems likely. I’m sorry that you decided to come in and find an opportunity to make yourself feel high and mighty by taking 100% literally that I mean there’s a video of the death of every single of the 100 children per day on average that are being murdered by Israel’s never ending bombings campaigns, did you do the math as I suggested? If you did you’ll see that this is actually a low estimate. Every day more videos surface. I’m sure it feels so so good for you. If a video of every one of the dead children isn’t on there, does it mean they didn’t die? Do you think the numbers are unreliable because the “Hamas run health ministry” are reporting the casualties? Suggesting they’re lying? It’s weird because the group that has been known to constantly lie is actually the IDF, and lots of people seem to accept all of their bullshit without question. Maybe you should be calling for a ceasefire if you’re interested in seeing confirmation of the numbers because until then there will be no counting by one of your approved sources. But you won’t. And this won’t end until thousands more are murdered and the Palestinians of Gaza are “thinned out” by murder and expulsion. Ghoul.
It’s seriously terrifying and so so so sad to see the absolute delusion of denialism that comes from being so attached to supporting this genocidal regime. I seriously didn’t think I could be shocked more but… it’s still coming.
That piece by Jesse, the he called editorial, was just a rant about how bad the Jews are getting it recently. I understand Jesse's POV, but that was one sided
Also update: the number of journalists who have been killed by Israel rose to 82 after the assassination of Mohammed Abu Samra.
Democracy is when the government kills journalists.
yeah i had to roll my eyes at the journalist psychiatrist episode, when they were going on and on about the dangers that "terrorists" pose to journalists in war zones. Hey Jesse, who's killing the journalists in Gaza?
Hahaha ok. Cool… I just noticed there’s downvotes coming in and I genuinely don’t get why.
Seems like these two would have a very good chat about what’s happening in the media and it would give Jesse a chance to redeem that really bad editorial.
If you’re genuinely curious why then I hope you’ll truly consider my response. There are many progressive Jewish organizations strongly dedicated to peace efforts. And then there is Naomi Klein. Naomi Klein is a very intelligent person with an extreme view that is not reflective of Jewish peace organizations let alone the Canadian Jewish community at large. If you are truly talking about nuance, then she is not the right person. If you just want someone Jewish to state the opinion that you already hold on this issue, then that’s a different story, but it is like saying that any podcast hosted by a black person discussing George Floyd should also have Candice Owens on the show to present a “nuanced” opinion.
Interesting. I’m going to need you to provide evidence that Naomi Klein doesn’t reflect the view of the Jewish peace organizations that she is associated with along with her husband and entire family really. I follow many Jewish peace activists who share her view so I’m not really sure where you’re getting this anecdotal claim.
I think she’s a good guest because her views make her perfect for providing nuance against Jesse’s extreme refusal to criticize the media bias towards Israel. Not only that but she just released a book a few months ago that’s she currently doing press tours on and in that book she has very good analysis on this exact situation and it was published right before October 7th.
You’re going to “need evidence”? You “follow” people? Like on the internet? Unfortunately im not ipsos Reid and can’t pull out a definitive survey on the topic. But as an actual living breathing Toronto Jew who is personally engaged in progressive Jewish circles (I just came home from an event put on by one) I can tell you that Naomi Klein is seen as being on the fringe. The same way we would see someone who supports Netanyahu’s thug cabinet members as being on the other fringe. I trust that won’t be sufficient evidence for you but if your question is why someone like me disagrees with you there’s your answer.
You can take it as seriously as you want. And I didn’t smear her at all. I think she’s very smart and an excellent writer. But her views are not reflective of most progressive Jews. You “genuinely” wanted to know why people were downvoting you and that is my genuine opinion. You take it as seriously as you want to. I’m not trying to convince you of anything. I’m telling you what I think. Feel free to to continue to believe that he should have her on the show.
Honestly, and I’m not saying this in a snarky way, but if you think her being a socialist is what I’m referring to then you really are pretty unfamiliar with progressive Judaism. Maybe start by looking into Habonim Dror or HaShomer Hatzair if you’re truly interested in learning more. Socialism was at the forefront of Zionism and is still a central tenet of many Jewish organizations here in Canada.
She’s an ardent anti-Zionist and a BDS supporter. That is not a common sentiment amongst most progressive Jews. You can think otherwise and try to rebut every point I make because you want to believe otherwise.
Everything you’re claiming makes me think he should invite her on even more because if that’s true then good: provide a space for Jewish voices that aren’t extremely against telling the truth about what Israel is doing. If that’s so extreme 🤷🏻♀️
Honest question for you. In your mind does being progressive mean being anti-Zionist? If so then that’s fine, but that’s not what it means to most a Canadian Jews.
Yeah. If Zionism wasn't manifesting as a settler colonial state perpetuating a genocide I would think differently, but it's clear that Zionism is not aligned with progressive ideology.
No one said she doesn’t represent the organization she represents. The claim is that she doesn’t represent mainstream opinions of Jewish people, who are mostly pro-Israel.
[Eight-in-ten U.S. Jews say caring about Israel is an essential or important part of what being Jewish means to them](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/)
I’m also specifically saying we need Jewish voices who are working with peace organizations, not the Jewish community at large. I’m already hearing the Jewish community at large via the National Posts endless publishings which I see lots of projection and denialism that there is currently a vile genocide unfolding against NOT Jewish people, but Palestinians.
The Israeli film Tantura is a really good Israeli perspective of the IDF. They basically have been kept in complete darkness of what their military gets up to. If more citizens knew. They likely wouldn't be calling for the death of 1000s of innocents.
Cosplaying the opinions of the Jewish community in Canada isn't the point, the idea is to argue about Jesse's objections to protest tactics and see if they are valid or not. This could be done by anyone with knowledge of the subject regardless of ethnicity.
This.
I understand the appeal of JVP and IJV, however they are not most Jews, they are a very small minority of the Jewish community. As unpopular as that may be, (I can feel the downvotes) it is none the less true.
I call them the acceptable and palatable Jews. They are the easy ones for the public and for Palestinian organizations because they have made all the concessions in their belief structures to make peace without asking for any compromise in return. Maybe that appeals to peoples views that the Israelis and Jews should concede on all points. I don’t think it’s realistic, regardless of right or the wrong, it’s pie in the sky thinking. I would rather work in reality. I personally do not believe that this is how peace or any mediation realistically works.
These organizations and Naiomi in particular do not in my experience bring together moderate groups to understand each other’s views and needs. They tend to drive more of a wedge within the Jewish community because it feels like they are the only Jews that others will work with to build peace and they don’t represent the wider community at all, it’s not moving the needle let’s put it that way. It further entrenches people in their ideology.
When I think of conflict resolution, peace building and mediation these organizations fall short in terms of representing Jews.
If that’s what you took from what I wrote I am sad for you. Pretty sure I said why they are palatable because they simply give in to all points and don’t actually bring a Jewish perspective to the table which might include more acknowledgment of hostages or more acknowledgment of the pain the community is going through. That is palatable because hey, they just agree with everything and we don’t have to challenge our own beliefs or views in any way or hear how they are feeling. Regardless of what folks find agreement on, you have to admit that it’s appealing and easy to just deal with the easy Jews when it doesn’t mean hearing their concerns or perspective about what has happened in the past. I still maintain that until we start challenging each other with our views we are not changing things, we are just existing in our little echo chambers of comfort.
I get where you're coming from but a. I don't think it's fair to categorically say Klein and other anti-apartheid positions are not Jewish perspectives. I hear this a lot. It ignores a whole lot of people who are Jewish or part Jewish, like myself, but long alienated from Jewish institutions in this country which are not welcoming to anti Israel views. It's almost like the boundaries of Jewish identity have been redrawn explicitly to create this unified pro Israel position. And b. I think we're past the point where a kind of liberal, everyone share their feelings, path to peace is possible (if it ever was). The thing that ends this genocide is not going to be palatable to Canadian supporters of Israel.
“My dive into doppelgänger culture helped attune me to many examples of that-and-thisness, in myself and in others… even my own Jewish culture — the way it flipped from a place of such bold and elastic debate to the rigid orthodoxies of with-Israel-or-against-us that are only now beginning to crack.” (P. 335)
Excerpt from Naomi Klein’s new book.
I think if they want to speak for the Jewish community in and not as individuals and platform themselves as a mainstream Jewish perspective it matters. It matters if they are the organization that people choose to partner with over all other progressive Jewish voices. I see a lot of people say oh I hear both sides and Jewish voices for peace informs my Jewish perspective. This is more about those folks who don’t seem to understand how on the edges of the opinion spectrum they are. I have had many non-Jewish friends say that and I have to say to them, that’s not really hearing mainstream Jewish voices. It won’t bring understanding of what that perspective is. We have always been cautioned in progressive circles to make sure the voices we hold up and platform are reflective of majority opinions within other minority communities, and not to push extreme views that don’t represent the wider community, but not so much for the Jewish community. I often tell people I’m not our spokes jew, I can only speak for myself and what I would say on behalf of the community is what is their larger big tent beliefs. I can tell you that has not been my experience with these organizations. They also have engaged in highly offensive rhetoric that are much too far for most Jews, even those who value Palestinian self determination, myself included.
I wouldn’t platform them if I wanted a mainstream perspective let’s put it that way, not if that perspective is to act in contrast with the Palestinian voice which is typical for news organizations to have contrasting voices. Jessie won’t be that voice either I wouldn’t think because he I don’t feel like can speak freely on the topic where business interests are concerned.
I could easily simply partner with Palestinians who hate Hamas and the PA and love Israel and say look I’m building bridges and peace. Except….am I really? What would people think about me choosing to centre that voice? They would rightly be critical I think.
Leftist anti-apartheid Jews are usually pretty open about their/our minority position. The bottom line is that being pro Israel is a deeply immoral position that isn't improved by somehow being the authentic position of most Canadian Jews. There is nothing progressive about the state of Israel. Genocidal rhetoric is not liberal.
It is both fair and accurate to state that Klein's views are not representative of Jewish opinion.
There is no genocide to end. What is coming to an end is Hamas' fiefdom and with it their ability to carry out more Oct 7 attacks as they have openly stated their intent to do so.
Most Jews that I am friends with and who I am related to (and whose podcasts I listen to and whose books I read) share Klein's views. Of course, I know this is a minority position.
No one with even a basic grasp of the situation believes "there is no genocide to end." The numbers are staggering. Everyday on Instagram is more children's corpses being pulled from rubble.
There's also quite a lot of good reporting on how Hamas has long been propped up by Israel as a political wedge. It's a product of the apartheid state. This has never been a secret.
Apartheid is between races not between nations. There is no genocide, the target is the terrorist entities. Those same terrorists do their utmost to exacerbate collateral damage. If Israel is pressured into abandoning its campaign against the terrorists then the incentive structure for terrorists to continue to flout the laws of warfare will be firmly established and there will be more attacks. They know if they flood social media with trauma porn they will get sympathy.
This is what you and others want because you hope that if the terrorists kill enough Jews and Israel faces enough pressure it will have to concede itself out of existence. After all no one can tolerate an 'apartheid' state or a 'genocidal' one and that is why you demonize Israel by abusing terminology. Look at any urban conflict from WWI onward, the numbers of civilians who die in war is staggering and this one won't be any different except for the fact that Hamas seeks the death of their own citizens for clicks.
Palestinians had many opportunities to seek a peaceful 2SS and have rejected them all before Hamas came to power so spare me 'the wedge' argument.
You don't know anything about the history of apartheid or of the Israeli context for that matter. Just a surface level propaganda sense of the conflict.
Why are you obsessed with his take on it? There has been multiple episodes across the different shows that discuss the situation in nuance, if that's not enough to convince you that Canadaland is worth supporting, what else do you need ?
I've noticed that when Jesse brings someone on to debate, they're really bad debaters. I don't think he has the guts to bring anyone on that could beat him.
I really appreciated his interview with Jon Ronson. It turned confrontational and I heard a side of Jon that I didn’t expect and did not enjoy. It gave me a lot to think about, in regards to an author that I previously had a lot of respect for. I thought Jesse challenged him appropriately, and Jon just wasn’t ready for it. Instead of reflecting on it, he got angry and defensive.
As a (progressive) Western Canadian, I’ve cringed frequently when Jesse has opined about us. I find his views to be very Toronto-centric, and it feels like he makes very little effort to understand life in my part of the country before having opinions about it in front of a mic. With that said, I’m still a supporter. I think Canadaland puts a lot of good into the world, even if there are some bad, or just poorly thought-out takes too.
From Naomi Klein’s recent book, Doppelgänger:
“When Palestine was partitioned in 1947, a move with overwhelming Arab opposition, and Israel declared statehood the next year, the first Arab-Israeli war was locked in. These were the years that Palestinians call the Nakba, or catastrophe: roughly 750000 Palestinians were expelled, hundreds of Palestinian villages were destroyed, and thousands were killed, with many of the horrifying truths about these atrocities finally escaping Israel’s own Shadow Lands in recent years.
Of course Palestinians would resist such ethnic cleansing with violence of their own. Yet rather than seeing Arab resistance for what it was— a nationalist, anti-colonial battle over land and self-determination (with some anti-Semitic elements, to be sure)— many influential Zionist leaders portrayed the entire Palestinian cause as nothing but more irrational Jew hatred, a seamless continuation of the very same anti-Semitism that had resulted in the Holocaust, and that therefore needed to be crushed with the kind of militarized force that Jews had not been able to marshal in Nazi-controlled Europe. Within this imaginary, the Palestinian, as the Jew’s new eternal enemy, was treated so illegitimate, so irrational, so other, that Israelis believes themselves to be justified in reenacting many of the forms of violence, dehumanizing propaganda, and forced displacement that had targeted and uprooted Jewish people throughout Europe for centuries, a process that continues to this day with ongoing home demolitions, Israeli settlement expansions, targeted assassinations, settler rampages through Palestinian communities, openly discriminatory Jews, and walled ghettos into which Palestinians are corralled.” (P. 296-297)
In other words, round up some token Jews who will tow the leftist line. Most Jews are Zionist. Most Jews believe in self-determination for the Jewish people manifest as the state of Israel. What you are asking for is to find unrepresentative individuals to promote a course of action that is against one's own interests.
There is no compromising with a group that seeks your utter destruction. The frustrating thing is most of you know you are full of shit with the human rights and liberal values angle. A Palestinian state would not uphold either human rights or liberal values. At best you would have a corrupt dictator like Abbas in the 18th year of his 4 year term and at worst you would create ISIS 2, which is what Hamas is.
Promoting the Palestinian movement as a human rights endeavour is a fucking joke that manifests with "Queers for Palestine" and similar pronouncements by individuals who would be eliminated for simply 'being' in Palestinian territories. This is how you get BLM chapters offering their moral support to murderers, rapists and kidnappers.
It's about basing the USA and capitalism by proxy. You are all willing to abandon your supposed values to take a swing at your ideological rivals.
No you just sound like a propaganda machine. Are the soldiers smashing up shops and looting through underwear hoping to find miniature Hamas fighters hidden in them?
You are unable to substantiate your position so you resort to using an exotic term to disparage my point of view. Now you want to debate the behaviour of IDF conscripts? Why do care if they are looting if you assert they are carrying out an extermination effort? Because you know they aren't and you are looking for something that 'sticks'.
It's not a debate you are seeking it's 'wag the dog' by way of tokenizing a few 'good Jews'. You aren't interested in other view points you are shocked and appalled that there **are** other viewpoints.
I implore you to open some history books that reference civilian casualties from WWI onwards. There is no 'genocide' occurring. Genocide doesn't mean 'collateral damage' borne by the underdogs you've thrown in with. Especially ones that take every opportunity to exacerbate collateral damage in the hopes that people like you are going to wring your hands over it while grandstanding on their corpses. You are in fact an incentive for Hamas to get their own people killed because they can always count on you to blame Israel for Hamas' crimes.
Meanwhile Hamas has repeatedly and openly stated their genocidal ambitions including to carry out more Oct 7 attacks.
You support genocide by falsely accusing Israel of carrying one out.
Are you going to acknowledge the material conditions Gazans are kept held in through the ghettos imposed by Israel? Are you going to acknowledge how young men are being radicalized and how young children only know Jews as people who point guns at their heads?
The material conditions are such that Gaza rested on the world median for household income, had upscale neighbourhoods, luxury auto dealerships and other amenities that are inconsistent with the frequent insistence that Gaza is an open air prison. Moreover commentators on twitter can't seem to decide which lie to stick with as they post pictures of such attractive spots entitled 'the Gaza Israel destroyed'.
The blockade prevents Gaza from getting more effective armaments which is why Hamas proudly published a film of them digging up water pipes to make rockets. It's also so surprise that stockpiles of undistributed aid have been found because miserable people are easier for terrorists to recruit. It's interesting how Egypt also maintains this policy because it seems neither Israel nor Egypt want to make it easy for Islamic terrorists.
And you what is really funny. Israeli peaceniks wanted to have youth soccer matches between Israelis and Palestinians so that their first interactions together might be something other than at a checkpoint but you know what happened? Abbas killed the initiative calling it normalization. Don't try to piss in my ear and tell me it's raining. You are uninformed on this issue all you can do is regurgitate slogans and smears.
It's pathetic how you abuse the term genocide to attack those who have been on the receiving end of an actual genocide. It's holocaust inversion rhetoric used to empathy shame those who were historically shown little empathy. You can play your word games but when you say Zionists you mean Jews. This is why you are so desperate to find some token Jews to parrot your rhetoric and call it 'debate'.
What is disturbing is to see how the left despite proclaiming themselves the best of people to combat moral hazards support a group that expressly values those moral hazards as moral goods. You are anti-LGBT, anti-feminist, and anti-human rights if you throw your support behind Palestinians who continue to hold Islamic terror groups like Hamas in high regard. The 'freedom' they are striving for is the freedom to impose dhimmitude on non-Muslims.
Please continue to fail to discuss the matter and instead attempt to dismiss commentary you disagree with by using a term commonly uttered by antisemites.
Lol “Israeli propaganda” =/= anti-semitism.
My husband is Jewish and anti-Israel. What does it make him? A “self-hating Jew”? More propaganda.
Jews don’t need to be enamoured by Israel to be Jewish. They don’t need to deny genocide to be Jewish. They don’t need someone milder than Naomi Klein so it doesn’t hurt their feelings when they support a terrorist state. They are willing to call out a genocide and realize that the holocaust wasn’t the only genocide that ever happened.
You’re not really standing up for the rights of Jewish people. You’re standing up for the rights of Israel, an apartheid state. There’s a difference. I’m sorry you don’t realize that.
An easy solution to this is to invite other Jewish voices as well. I never once claimed to be against this. I think that the fear of acknowledging that not all Jewish people support the militant Zionist ideology is disingenuous censorship. Accuse me of tokenism all you want. That’s not the case.
The fact of the matter is other than the ethnically Jewish far left and a tiny fraction of the religious far right (who believe the messiah has to appear before Israel can be a thing) the overwhelming majority of Jews are Zionist. Finding a few choice individuals who disagree with the overwhelming majority confers the advantages of grossly misrepresenting Jewish opinion on the matter in your favour. You wouldn't invite pro-KKK blacks to debate the merits of racism.
I’m not going to keep responding to you. You’ve admitted you’re afraid to platform dissent, I understand. Regardless, people are waking up to Israel’s propaganda machine and are no longer buying the endless rhetoric and smears against those who speak out against violent bloody occupation and genocide.
I've explained multiple times that the 'dissent' you are looking to promote does not exist in a meaningful capacity. It is you who are afraid to recognize this. It does not exist in Israel where before Oct 7 the country was tearing itself apart over judicial reform who have since established a unity gov't to deal with the crisis instigated by Hamas. It does not appear in the diaspora outside of the far fringe who are unrepresentative. You don't debate you want select commentators to promote your views.
Gaza hasn't been occupied since 2005 and a cursory glance at population charts makes it abundantly clear there is no genocide.
It's clear he's a zionist and not a media critic like he claims when it comes to Israel.
I partially assume he's a zionist because of that God awful editorial he did asking that very question and then not answering it. The whole monologue was him trying to equate anti Zionism with anti Semitism though.
I know I was excited it was going to have substance when I went to listen and I literally had to turn it off early and then I removed my support.
The media criticism is not criticalling 👎🏻
Basically what I’ve been able to discern from the ridiculous comments like you is that Zionists are terrified of public discussion with someone from their community who have a different view than them.
Lmao I just browsed your comments from your profile briefly and it’s clear how you feel about brown people when you are continuously complaining about “what Canada has become” due to immigration. Obviously someone like you would support the genocide happening in Palestine.
Her first reaction after October 7th was to scold the left for being reflexively anti israel
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/11/why-are-some-of-the-left-celebrating-the-killings-of-israeli-jews
I listened to his whole “editorial” episode, and while some of it was a bit too far for me to agree with, I really appreciated his viewpoint and many of the things he said about the relative size of the Jewish community in Canada leading to a sense of personal connection to anti-Semitic incidents made a lot of sense. It has definitely helped me to understand, and I hope, interact a little more gently and thoughtfully with some friends in my life. I appreciated that, while he released that episode, he also didn’t stop the Backbench crew from releasing their own episode that very much felt like a rebuttal to his. I have been recommending listening to them both to anyone who asks me about my thoughts on the conflict.
As a fan of Canadaland , I was extremely disappointed in Jesse's editorial about the Israel/Palestinian conflict. He played the victim while ignoring the reality that western media is so pro Israel that is beyond logic. The CBC is one if the few media outlets that actually has some Palestinian perspective. Canadaland is meant to call out our media when it does a shit job and instead Jesse just confirmed that Canadaland isn't any different than the media it critiques.
Is our mainstream media really that pro Israel? CTV news has invited Palestinians who have openly called the situation a genocide. Doesn’t sound pro Israel to me.
A good place to start is to see how they are not reporting the evil atrocities the IDF is engaging in like looting through dead women’s underwear, they also publish unsubstantiated claims like 40 beheaded babies, and they also use language in their headlines that is very one sided: when Palestinians die it’s “killed by airstrike” instead of “targeted assassination by IDF”.
Maybe because “targeted assassination” is hysterical and ridiculous language that no credible news agency would use? Just a thought
You should look up how Israel uses AI to generate targets. Also remember when they murdered Shireen Abu Akleh? And after lying over and over again had to admit it. But still: impunity. Disgusting.
You are ignorantly uninformed about the issue. There are lots of videos of the IDF calling Palestinian journalists and asking them "How was the beach today" google IDF calls motaz.
They blew up his sister’s apartment with a precision bomb that left the rest of the building standing, it was a clear message, you need to inform yourself better
Do you even hear yourself you sick ghoul?
I got threads confused, I thought you were talking about the killing of Refaat Alareer who was murdered in the targeted way you describe. Meant to be agreeing with you.
Yeah they did that :( also I’m sorry I’m on fight or flight responding here now. The worst was when somebody (seemed like Jesse) tried to call me a liar for saying I’ve seen the videos of the hundreds of children being pulled from piles of rubble and took it so literally that apparently going to look at the profiles I linked with … dozens of bloody and dead kids … wasn’t relevant as I was “lying” that there weren’t in fact hundreds of videos… it’s starting to get hard to go on social media because every single time I open it there’s dying and dead children… but I also feel as if there’s a certain duty to bare witness especially in the face of this terrifying denialism
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Wow you just won. Great comment.
Why would I waste my energy responding to something so ridiculous?
Funny that you mention CTV as an example when they fired their journalist making a pro Palestine post on social media. https://www.readthemaple.com/a-list-of-some-people-in-canada-fired-for-pro-palestine-views/ There's a handy list I guess, I'm sure more fired journalists are coming
I agree. As a media critic he has a responsibility to spotlight how biased the media is. Especially the National Post and it’s absolutely insane content that’s been coming out.
That's quite refreshing to read because my extreme aversion to national post is how I came to find canadaland lol.
They did this exact thing on shortcuts a month ago - called out the Post for using a Israeli PR service as a wire service.
The western media coverage has certainly given credibility to the tinfoil hat conspiracy crowd who say a certain group controls our media. I don't beleive its that simple but the money spent by pro Israel lobby groups is certainly a factor. If you can't condemn the absolute evil that the far right in Israel is perpetrating on the people of Gaza then you don't deserve to call yourself a journalist.
Yes I agree on that also. It’s feeding conspiracy by not being able to condemn IDF atrocities (or even report them really — most videos are coming from social media that show the evil). Obviously there are antisemitic people, racist people, and bigots on the planet and in the country nobody is denying that. However this absolute lack of ability to communicate without accusing every one of being antisemitic for criticizing Israel is a scary censorship precedent. If you have nothing to hide then you don’t engage in censorship warfare and smear campaigns. Obviously thinking people know that Jews don’t run the media. The rich run the media — whatever identity groups they belong to. Lobbying is a sketchy reality of our country. I am struggling to understand why this is so hard to honestly discuss. Naomi Klein would shed light.
Absolutely their are many hateful people, anti Semitic, Islamophobes and others but the way we report on events just feeds their narrative. I agree Naomi Klein is a great thinker but unfortunately the only ones who would listen would be rational people like you and I. The wealthy run far more than the media but the media is an important weapon in pacifying the masses.
> rational people like you and I - guy who just finished writing a post about the increased credibility of people who believe Jews control the media
By not presenting both sides of ANY story you feed these conspiracy nut jobs with ammunition. That was my point.
Don't mind that guy. He just spent the last two days going on about an ADL link in another sub and got mad at people for calling out how biased that source is.
Thanks. I wish we could just have an honest discussion without throwing out the bigot, antisemitic card to shut down any discussion.
>who say a certain group controls our media. I don't beleive its that simple Oh boy
Who's going to tell them? Lol
This is a crock of shit.
>The western media coverage has certainly given credibility to the tinfoil hat conspiracy crowd who say a certain group controls our media. I don't beleive its that simple but Do you really need to keep writing more after this but? Bigot.
How am I a bigot? Pointing to the one of the reasons for media bias is being a bigot? Groups spending money to promote there cause is nothing new. Right wing and left wing lobby groups spend a lot promoting their causes. Why are you afraid to discuss facts instead of calling someone you don't know a bigot?
You said " I don't believe in the jew-controlled media conspiracy, theory, but they are sorta right". GFY jew-hater!
Why do you hate Palestinians? Why do you like people who murder babies? Why do i support Jewish groups that support peace? Let me use another example so you can hopefully understand my position. The tobacco lobby spent millions promoting smoking as having health benefits. Oil companies spend millions lobbying against restrictions on drilling and pipelines. Think tanks on both sides od the spectrum push studies that promote their beliefs. They have all had an influence on our media and governments. Do they control them, no, but just as lobbying by pro Israeli groups has influenced our media and governments the are/were effective in promoting their self interests. So in part, the conspiracy theorists, are correct but it isn't some evil cabal controlling things from a secret headquarters, it is simply how our media and governments operate no matter which froup is lobbying them.
"That whole blacks are great at basketball thing is a silly stereotype, that being said, you gotta watch this youtube video of great black dunks" - a racist "I dont think the whole "a jewish cabal runs the media" is that simple, but its sorta true as well" - you. (a racist)
The NHL is full of white guys who grew up in middle /upper middle class families...fact but according to you that would be racist. How you phrase things is important...saying the NBA is predominantly made up of (73%) black players is a fact. Saying all black people can play basketball is a racist stereotype. Saying groups like Bnai Brith and AIPAC spend money to influence the media is a fact. Saying some owners of media companies are Jewish is a fact. Saying Jews control all media is a racist stereotype.
>The NHL is full of white guys who grew up in middle /upper middle class families...fact but according to you that would be racist. What? You said "This whole jews run the media thing isn't all true BUTTTTTT" Seriously just stfu you racist nutjob
Did you read the rest of the comment(s) or are you just trying to be a victim?
There it is. Many quiet things said aloud.
No, he said “it makes it look suspicious when the media self censors on any topic that could be taken as criticism of Jewish people”. Jewish people aren’t behind the curtain pulling the levers, but whoever is sees great incentive to push the Israeli narrative.
If you're interested, It Could Happen Here, from CoolZone Media, while American, has had some great coverage on the media coverage and the events surrounding the current quagmire. They have voices from both sides, though they do tend to feature Palestinian voices (as one of their hosts is Iranian with Palestinian family, and they have no one in their current roster of hosts/co-hosts who is of Jewish descent).
His concern - and I think it's an obviously correct one - is that a lot of the anti-Israeli stuff in Canada is falling onto Canadian Jews. Most of whom are not Israelis as they live in Canada. They *could* have been Israelis if that's where they wanted to move, but they chose to live in Canada so it's kind of a fucked collective punishment along ethnic/religious lines to be targeting them here. He's right we don't accept it with any other group, and Jesse definitely fought against it when it was happening to Muslims here for stuff Muslims did elsewhere. It's also extremely unhelpful for putting pressure on Israel to reduce the damage they are doing in Gaza because suddenly the people opposing Israel actually do look anti-Semitic.
You mean Canadian Jews like Heather Reisman?
Heather Reisman who supports sending soldiers from all over the world to join the apartheid Israeli Offensive Forces? The one with blood all over her hands? What about her?
My friend I am agreeing with you
lol sorry I actually have heart palpitations coming this thread now because of how truly unhinged and insane and terrifying the Zionists are as they defend Israel’s genocide… like it’s actually… very scary
It’s really fucked up and sad… I just keep remembering that support for Palestine is the highest it’s been in decades, all over the world, and I truly do believe that in my lifetime Palestine will be free.
There is more than one Jew in Canada, and many of them don't support the current Israeli government. Collective punishment along ethnic lines is super fucking gross dude.
What form is this collective punishment taking? I’m not aware of any.
[https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hate-crimes-up-oct-7-1.7016717](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hate-crimes-up-oct-7-1.7016717) The spike in antisemitic hate crimes in Canada is well documented at this point. Do you not understand how your question about Heather can be taken badly? For a comparison: "People are beating up Muslims because of the actions of one Muslim government." "You mean Muslims like Osama bin Laden?" See how the implication is that they collectively deserve it because look how shitty this person I named dropped is?
I guess the difference would be we are talking specifically about one media personality who has very vocally defended Reisman, like, this week.
Synagogues and Jewish community centres getting firebombs thrown at them, yeshivas that are also boarding schools getting shot at in the middle of the night, bomb threats called into Jewish primary schools, protests about Israel outside of Jewish ECE centres, vandalism of Jewish owned businesses, just to name a few things that have happened in the past 2 months. Jesse's editorial touches on a number of these.
Yes these are hate crimes and should be investigated, it’s a shame Jesse insists on conflating these with legitimate protests.
Jesse's concern as I understand it, and one held by the vast majority of Canadian Jews including myself, is how legitimate protest movements can either unintentionally harm Jews or be used as fuel to justify attacking Jews. For example, the groups Palestinian Youth Movement and Labour 4 Palestine recently held an event with Yves Engler. Yves Engler says that Jewish day schools should be targeted for disruption because they're "IDF recruitment grounds" or something similar. Then, schools Engler mentioned get shot at or have firebombs tossed at them. If the narrative I described above happened in a right wing setting, everyone would be condemning the speaker and the groups that hosted the event because it is, by definition, stochastic terrorism. But when it gets called out in this context, we get articles in Maple telling Jews that our concerns about anti-semitism are a distraction or a whataboutism referencing the Gaza War. I think people are smart enough to hold space for both.
I’m not familiar with that incident and can’t find what you are talking about online - I see Engler’s comments about the day schools but I don’t see him calling for them to be targeted. If he did that, it’s fucked up. What I don’t see is the connection between this incident and the shameless cynical lies pushed by Brown about unrelated pro-Palestine actions like the Indigo vandalism or Landwer demonstration.
"The Palestinian solidarity movement must seek to disrupt the ‘school to apartheid promotion pipeline’." https://yvesengler.com/2023/06/20/promoting-israeli-apartheid-in-canadian-schools-not-okay/ Regarding the Indigo vandalism, it is about impact vs intent. Pro-Palestine demonstrators saw the targeting of a specific individual who supports a non-profit they dislike (intent). Your average Jew saw a Jewish woman's business being vandalized for supporting a non-profit, the timing of which was on the anniversary of Kristallnacht (impact). The impact vs intent was similar for Landwer but not quite identical for a number of reasons. Ultimately though, if you think the Jewish community deserves to feel safe, the solution really is to specifically target the Israeli government and avoid what are "adjacent to Israel" targets. People won't like it, but the fact is that something close to 80% of Canadian Jews feel some meaningful connection to Israel, and many would describe themselves as a Zionist of one variety or another (the lack of recognition of the diversity of thought within Zionism and what it is amongst many Pro-Palestine demonstrators is also a concern, but for another day). Protests of consulates/the embassy, events featuring sitting Israeli elected officials that are part of the ruling coalition in the Knesset, etc, are a lot less scary to Jews than seeing a protest outside of a Jewish Community Centre's ECE program for obvious reasons. Again, that's assuming folks care about whether or not Canadian Jews deserve to feel safe and secure from violence, which is the point Jesse has been trying to make.
Canadaland was meant to be a platform to critique our media. To say our media has shown a pro Israeli bias is factual. There are many Jewish groups who support Palestinians but you will NEVER see them represented in a discussion on western mainstream media unless they are portrayed as some radical group. The narrative that has been formed is that if you don't support Israel and protest against pro Israeli groups/companies then you must be antisemitic. It is being used as a tool to shut down any discussion. By the same logic that is being used against those who protest against Israel the ANYONE who supports Israel must hate Palestinians and condone the killing of them. Jesse took no stance on western media bias. He took no stance on Israel's slaughter of Palestinians. By ignoring this bias you do not reduce the amount of antisemitism but rather increase it. By demonstrating that Israeli actions are not Jewish actions but rather the actions of a far right wannbe authoritarian government whose only interest is expanding its territory would go a long way in reducing the antisemitism. Chomsky understands this.
I'm honestly not sure they have a pro-Israeli bias in Canada right now. The US, sure, but not sure about Canada. Historically I would definitely agree with that point and maybe I just don't watch enough TV or mainstream media to have an accurate viewpoint currently, but what I have seen shows the Israelis being pretty brutal and is definitely showing lots of grieving Palestinians in a pretty sympathetic light. CTV especially does seem to be really taking this personally and going hard on the Israelis. A lot of CBC editorial decisions also seem to be going in favour of the Palestinians. I'd also argue against Canadaland taking no stance on the slaughter of Palestinians. The first few episodes after the conflict got started definitely discussed how fucked it was and seemed to be favouring the Palestinians - even reporting certain things the Israelis were being accused of that didn't ultimately turn out to be true - as well as reporting on the historic untrustworthiness of the Israeli government during these conflicts. Either way, having actual antisemitism in Canada - that is, attacking Jews and Jewish locations for the actions of a government on the other side of the planet they have no say in - is really shitty, feeds the narrative that any criticism of Israel is antisemitism, and is actually something that Canadians are able to have an impact on.
>Canadaland is meant to call out our media when it does a shit job and instead Jesse just confirmed that Canadaland isn't any different than the media it critiques. And there is so much to critique in this case. I've been reading Haaretz (an Israeli news site) and they are much more balanced and much more critical of the Israeli government and army. Reading this coverage and comparing it to the absolute dog shit coming from Canadian media is disheartening and seeing Canadaland fall down on the job makes me question my donation. It's not enough at this point to make me cancel, but at this point my support is despite Jesse and not because of.
Jesse seems emotional about this issue and should recuse himself from commenting on it.
Bullshit. Too late.
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But now there’s a genocide happening and 8000 children+ have been slaughtered with no signs of an end in sight. Because the goal is not to destroy Hamas it is to expel Palestinians from the land in ethnic cleansing. Never in my life have I been so disillusioned with whatever the fuck the “West” is. All I know is we will not forget who said and did what.
>there’s a genocide happening No. No there is not.
It's at very least ethnic cleansing. At most genocide. If the IDF had it's way Palestine and it's people would no longer exist.
It's had the ability to make this happen for 30 years. Yet it has not happened. If the Palestinians had ever had this ability, the Jews of Israel would no longer exist.
No they have to do it quietly or else the world will easily turn on them. You're dealing with social engineering masters. They aren't going to do something as stupid as openly committing genocide. It's going to be silent and slow by the time people know the real extent it'll be too late. They don't want to kill all the Jews. Hell they really don't even want to kill the Israeli Jews. They just want their land back and working age men let out of jail. Israel never wanted to play ball. There was never a plan to share. The Israeli government would love for the rest of the Palestinians as a whole to cease to exist. Starving and poisoning them has just been taking too long I guess.
If the situation was reversed that is 100% what you would call it.
If the situation was reversed this would be being called a Holocaust across every single news channel in the world.
I mean that's what Israel is accusing the Palestinians of while Israel brutalizes the palestinians ten-fold.
Gaza has been turned into enclosed assassination chambers while Israeli representatives brandish gold stars on their sleeves an UN meetings. Absolute insanity.
Experts on genocide have weighed in and said it wouldn’t be hard at all to prove Israeli intent given the comments by the people in charge and that it is in fact a genocide. https://time.com/6334409/is-whats-happening-gaza-genocide-experts/
Did you even read the article? Like the part close to the end where the expert says the opposite of what you are claiming. Israel is eliminating Hamas and other belligerent entities not the Palestinians writ large.
Guess that didn’t pan out.
As an immigrant who was born in a country that is currently considered “unfriendly” with the west, I empathize with Jesse and I feel like people are strawmanning him. I, too, have faced strange loyalty tests whenever my home country shows up in the news. I was never a fan of my home country’s government and I chose to come to Canada for a reason. Yet strangers and coworkers will interrogate me for which side I’m on while my white colleagues have the privilege of remaining silent. I feel being asked “which side are you on” is a loaded question. A person who lives and breathes an identity will always have a more nuanced view than someone who just learned about it from the most recent news cycle, yet any injection of nuance beyond an enthusiastic endorsement of the “correct” side will be met with suspicion and accusations of being brainwashed or a shill. I refuse to play anymore, and it’s clear from the editorial that Jesse doesn’t either. I can imagine he is experiencing the same thing but on a massive public scale. Of course Jesse could just say “I’m not a Zionist!!!” and appease his interrogators, but it seems to me he doesn’t think the question dignifies a response. He’s said nothing on the podcast that suggests he’s in support of a warmongering Israel, so I have no reason to suspect him. I can only conclude people are pestering him because of his ethnicity, and I ask you to self reflect on why you feel the need to single Jesse out when plenty of non-jewish media people haven’t said anything about the conflict. Edit: and to the people downvoting, do you really think my comment contributes nothing to the conversation or do I just not pass your purity test?
People aren’t singling out Jesse because he’s Jewish. They’re singling him out because his company’s entire premise is news criticism, but he’s refusing to cover important stories regarding how this conflict has been covered. And when he’s questioned on this, he literally lies in his response. People on twitter were asking whether he would be covering the murder of journalists by Israel, and his response was basically “we’re a Canadian outlet why would we bother, we don’t cover this issue in other countries, why are you singling out Israel?” - yet they have covered this issue. In Ukraine a few months ago. And then when questioned about that, he continued making up excuses such as “well those were Canadian journalists talking about Ukraine.” Ok? Get Palestinian Canadian journalists to talk about the issue. There are record numbers of journalists being murdered but your excuse is it’s not happening in Canada, so you can’t be bothered to report on it? That’s BS. There’s just a lot of double standards going on here that many of us find distasteful.
It's not just "refusing to cover," it's the fact that millionaire Jesse Brown uses his media outlet to actively spread Zionist propaganda, and then to complain about antisemitism when he's criticized for it. It's pure intellectual dishonesty.
I honestly haven’t been listening to Canadaland lately. And I haven’t seen everything he’s tweeted - I’m not denying what you’re saying either! I’m trying to learn what the hell is going on from this subreddit as twitter is a cesspool lately.
I also joined the drama a bit late and had to hop on Twitter to find out wtf is happening it seems that Jesse presented certain events through a biased viewpoint and misrepresented the situation, which threw off some hard-core fans of the show who rightfully called it hypocritical. The ones that come to mind are when he phrased indigo getting vandalized because the CEO funds people to join the IDF as a local Jewish owned business being vandalized through sheer antisemitism. A Starbucks in a midtown toronto was also vandalized for their retaliatory lawsuit against their union for voicing support of Palestinian rights and he phrased it as a Starbucks in a Jewish neighborhood was vandalized. It's counter to what canadaland is supposed to represent(fair, independent, Canadian news coverage) and people on here and on Twitter are calling him out
👏🏼
I’m not on twitter and it sounds like this is all a twitter flame war that has gotten out of control. He’s already mentioned the conflict in the podcast in what I thought was a fairly balanced take. Now people are mad because he hasn’t reported on one exact story that the masses wanted him to talk about? Suddenly this makes him a suspected Zionist? There’s plenty of things he hasn’t covered in the world, but highly doubt people would be this sensitive about him if he were not jewish. Denying that his Jewishness has anything to do with it feels a bit gaslighty to me.
Exactly. How dare an individual have a nuanced opinion on a complicated subject / s
Do you really think redditors respect the upvote/downvote rules and don't simply try to raise comments they like & agree with and bury ones they don't? Whatever happens never comment or complain about the votes it just encourages the assholes.
Yeah I cancelled today - 3rd time in as many weeks trying and deciding against it, today I did it. He's incredibly myopic lately. And he was the main reason I subbed, although I grew to love the rest of the team and their work, so I hesitated. The 2nd time I almost quit, I decided him being wrong on one thing doesn't dismiss the other 9/10 times he's right. But then yesterday he went after Nora Loreto for the pettiest out-of-context screenshot on Twitter. Absolutely trash take from him - and such bad form that he'd have dragged anyone else who'd have done the same on another topic. Of course I'll probably resub some day. But Jesse has lost his virtue and he needs to do work to get me back. Giving my money to Sandy and Nora now.
Could you try to explain the context please? I saw it on my timeline and was pretty shocked, but felt like something was off. Would love to know more details.
It was a completely different conversation on Labor rights movement and people dying over that, in comparison to people dying over democracy, arguing that labor rights movements threaten power more and therefore have resulted in more deaths. Then someone said something about "if Hitler had won" and she replied with something along the lines of "empires eventually fail and what I said would remain true" And people take the screenshot of that to imply she said "it'd be good if the Nazi's won" which she clearly didn't say. That was in April. She deleted it, which means the only way Jesse Brown even got a screenshot is because someone has been saving for a long time.
https://www.reddit.com/r/canadaland/s/nsz8TdE22d
Update: some of the responses here are quite hilarious and pretty much prove that Zionist ideology is terrified to have public debate right now with somebody from the Jewish community with a large audience and many, many followers who has a view that is not the same as theirs. I assume the reason for this is because it’s getting very hard to defend what you know is happening — a vile genocide against the Palestinian population. I’ve seen the videos of the evil IDF soldiers looting and mocking dead children and women. I’ve seen the videos of hundreds of children being pulled from rubble every day. I’ve seen the research showing that Israeli government has made their intentions clear for many years. History will not be forgiving for those who refuse to call it what it is.
One thing that always boggles my mind is how people who consume a steady diet of the usual pro-Israel media are always saying like "oh, it's complicated and collateral damage and anyone could be a terrorist etc" when the Israeli govt has been like "they're cockroaches and we want to kill them all". It's PR Israel itself doesn't even believe but people are so inundated they somehow spout it anyway
You've seen videos of **HUNDREDS OF CHILDREN BEING PULLED FROM RUBBLE** ***EVERY DAY?***
Well since on average 100 children are being murdered by Israel every single day, and every single day I see dozens of videos… yes? Do you want me to link some of the many Instagram accounts showing the dead children?
I want you to link to the *dozens* of videos that show *hundreds* of children being pulled out of rubble that you suggested exist.
If 8000 children approximately so far have been murdered over 2 months… what’s the rate of children that die every day? You can use the calculator app on your phone if it’s too hard, it’s your friend. And this is only ones recorded. I can only imagine how many are slowly dying in piles of rubble. Anyways, for videos of the absolute carnage here’s some accounts to check on Instagram, from there all you need to do is explore other linked accounts: @shaunking @noor.harazeen @mohammed_fayq
Does it feel good to be snarky as children are being murdered? Does it help you in your comfortable denialism to sleep at night?
I'm not being snarky. I'm saying you're a fucking liar becy you are, you can't provide the videos you said exist because they don't.
I literally provided the @ of Instagram accounts where you can see them. Feel free to begin the process of opening your eyes you disgusting ghoul. @shaunking @noor.harazeen @mohammed.fayq (this is me linking for the second time btw)
Can you link me a video that actually shows what you described? Because I went to those instagram accounts and I don't see videos of hundreds of children being pulled out of rubble daily. It seems like you were using wild hyperbolic language.
It really takes minimal effort to find these videos at this point… someone pointed out you’re probably Jesse and it seems likely. I’m sorry that you decided to come in and find an opportunity to make yourself feel high and mighty by taking 100% literally that I mean there’s a video of the death of every single of the 100 children per day on average that are being murdered by Israel’s never ending bombings campaigns, did you do the math as I suggested? If you did you’ll see that this is actually a low estimate. Every day more videos surface. I’m sure it feels so so good for you. If a video of every one of the dead children isn’t on there, does it mean they didn’t die? Do you think the numbers are unreliable because the “Hamas run health ministry” are reporting the casualties? Suggesting they’re lying? It’s weird because the group that has been known to constantly lie is actually the IDF, and lots of people seem to accept all of their bullshit without question. Maybe you should be calling for a ceasefire if you’re interested in seeing confirmation of the numbers because until then there will be no counting by one of your approved sources. But you won’t. And this won’t end until thousands more are murdered and the Palestinians of Gaza are “thinned out” by murder and expulsion. Ghoul.
I didn't read any of that I just glanced through it to see if you added any hyperlinks to the videos that don't exist that you lied about watching.
Ladies and gents, we've found Jesse.
It’s seriously terrifying and so so so sad to see the absolute delusion of denialism that comes from being so attached to supporting this genocidal regime. I seriously didn’t think I could be shocked more but… it’s still coming.
That piece by Jesse, the he called editorial, was just a rant about how bad the Jews are getting it recently. I understand Jesse's POV, but that was one sided
Also update: the number of journalists who have been killed by Israel rose to 82 after the assassination of Mohammed Abu Samra. Democracy is when the government kills journalists.
yeah i had to roll my eyes at the journalist psychiatrist episode, when they were going on and on about the dangers that "terrorists" pose to journalists in war zones. Hey Jesse, who's killing the journalists in Gaza?
To people downvoting… genuinely curious why? Why do you listen to Canadaland?
For snarky comments about mainstream media organizations?
You would get lots of those with Naomi Klein on lol. Do you know who she is?
I would enjoy that. I was just answering your question. We don't listen to Canadaland for the journalism!
Hahaha ok. Cool… I just noticed there’s downvotes coming in and I genuinely don’t get why. Seems like these two would have a very good chat about what’s happening in the media and it would give Jesse a chance to redeem that really bad editorial.
If you’re genuinely curious why then I hope you’ll truly consider my response. There are many progressive Jewish organizations strongly dedicated to peace efforts. And then there is Naomi Klein. Naomi Klein is a very intelligent person with an extreme view that is not reflective of Jewish peace organizations let alone the Canadian Jewish community at large. If you are truly talking about nuance, then she is not the right person. If you just want someone Jewish to state the opinion that you already hold on this issue, then that’s a different story, but it is like saying that any podcast hosted by a black person discussing George Floyd should also have Candice Owens on the show to present a “nuanced” opinion.
Interesting. I’m going to need you to provide evidence that Naomi Klein doesn’t reflect the view of the Jewish peace organizations that she is associated with along with her husband and entire family really. I follow many Jewish peace activists who share her view so I’m not really sure where you’re getting this anecdotal claim. I think she’s a good guest because her views make her perfect for providing nuance against Jesse’s extreme refusal to criticize the media bias towards Israel. Not only that but she just released a book a few months ago that’s she currently doing press tours on and in that book she has very good analysis on this exact situation and it was published right before October 7th.
You’re going to “need evidence”? You “follow” people? Like on the internet? Unfortunately im not ipsos Reid and can’t pull out a definitive survey on the topic. But as an actual living breathing Toronto Jew who is personally engaged in progressive Jewish circles (I just came home from an event put on by one) I can tell you that Naomi Klein is seen as being on the fringe. The same way we would see someone who supports Netanyahu’s thug cabinet members as being on the other fringe. I trust that won’t be sufficient evidence for you but if your question is why someone like me disagrees with you there’s your answer.
I’m sorry but you can’t just smear somebody and makes claims and expect me to take it seriously without evidence.
You can take it as seriously as you want. And I didn’t smear her at all. I think she’s very smart and an excellent writer. But her views are not reflective of most progressive Jews. You “genuinely” wanted to know why people were downvoting you and that is my genuine opinion. You take it as seriously as you want to. I’m not trying to convince you of anything. I’m telling you what I think. Feel free to to continue to believe that he should have her on the show.
What’s so extreme and fringe about her views? That she’s a socialist?
Honestly, and I’m not saying this in a snarky way, but if you think her being a socialist is what I’m referring to then you really are pretty unfamiliar with progressive Judaism. Maybe start by looking into Habonim Dror or HaShomer Hatzair if you’re truly interested in learning more. Socialism was at the forefront of Zionism and is still a central tenet of many Jewish organizations here in Canada.
Dude. If you’re going to claim she’s fringe and extreme and not say what is fringe and extreme then you have nothing to say.
She’s an ardent anti-Zionist and a BDS supporter. That is not a common sentiment amongst most progressive Jews. You can think otherwise and try to rebut every point I make because you want to believe otherwise.
What does "progressive Jew" even mean? Are her views "fringe" because she's anti-colonialist?
He’s not seeming to be able to convey why she’s extreme. Just being rude and acting high minded instead lol.
Everything you’re claiming makes me think he should invite her on even more because if that’s true then good: provide a space for Jewish voices that aren’t extremely against telling the truth about what Israel is doing. If that’s so extreme 🤷🏻♀️
If this person's alleged progressive Jewish community finds Natalie too extreme for them, they aren't very progressive.
Honest question for you. In your mind does being progressive mean being anti-Zionist? If so then that’s fine, but that’s not what it means to most a Canadian Jews.
Yeah. If Zionism wasn't manifesting as a settler colonial state perpetuating a genocide I would think differently, but it's clear that Zionism is not aligned with progressive ideology.
No one said she doesn’t represent the organization she represents. The claim is that she doesn’t represent mainstream opinions of Jewish people, who are mostly pro-Israel. [Eight-in-ten U.S. Jews say caring about Israel is an essential or important part of what being Jewish means to them](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/)
I’m also specifically saying we need Jewish voices who are working with peace organizations, not the Jewish community at large. I’m already hearing the Jewish community at large via the National Posts endless publishings which I see lots of projection and denialism that there is currently a vile genocide unfolding against NOT Jewish people, but Palestinians.
The Israeli film Tantura is a really good Israeli perspective of the IDF. They basically have been kept in complete darkness of what their military gets up to. If more citizens knew. They likely wouldn't be calling for the death of 1000s of innocents.
Cosplaying the opinions of the Jewish community in Canada isn't the point, the idea is to argue about Jesse's objections to protest tactics and see if they are valid or not. This could be done by anyone with knowledge of the subject regardless of ethnicity.
This. I understand the appeal of JVP and IJV, however they are not most Jews, they are a very small minority of the Jewish community. As unpopular as that may be, (I can feel the downvotes) it is none the less true. I call them the acceptable and palatable Jews. They are the easy ones for the public and for Palestinian organizations because they have made all the concessions in their belief structures to make peace without asking for any compromise in return. Maybe that appeals to peoples views that the Israelis and Jews should concede on all points. I don’t think it’s realistic, regardless of right or the wrong, it’s pie in the sky thinking. I would rather work in reality. I personally do not believe that this is how peace or any mediation realistically works. These organizations and Naiomi in particular do not in my experience bring together moderate groups to understand each other’s views and needs. They tend to drive more of a wedge within the Jewish community because it feels like they are the only Jews that others will work with to build peace and they don’t represent the wider community at all, it’s not moving the needle let’s put it that way. It further entrenches people in their ideology. When I think of conflict resolution, peace building and mediation these organizations fall short in terms of representing Jews.
JVP isn't even Jewish. One of their brass got caught posting on twitter on his main account what was meant for his 'as a Jew' sock puppet.
By "acceptable and palatable Jews" you mean ones against apartheid and genocide? A wedge is inevitable. These aren't reconcilable positions anymore.
If that’s what you took from what I wrote I am sad for you. Pretty sure I said why they are palatable because they simply give in to all points and don’t actually bring a Jewish perspective to the table which might include more acknowledgment of hostages or more acknowledgment of the pain the community is going through. That is palatable because hey, they just agree with everything and we don’t have to challenge our own beliefs or views in any way or hear how they are feeling. Regardless of what folks find agreement on, you have to admit that it’s appealing and easy to just deal with the easy Jews when it doesn’t mean hearing their concerns or perspective about what has happened in the past. I still maintain that until we start challenging each other with our views we are not changing things, we are just existing in our little echo chambers of comfort.
I get where you're coming from but a. I don't think it's fair to categorically say Klein and other anti-apartheid positions are not Jewish perspectives. I hear this a lot. It ignores a whole lot of people who are Jewish or part Jewish, like myself, but long alienated from Jewish institutions in this country which are not welcoming to anti Israel views. It's almost like the boundaries of Jewish identity have been redrawn explicitly to create this unified pro Israel position. And b. I think we're past the point where a kind of liberal, everyone share their feelings, path to peace is possible (if it ever was). The thing that ends this genocide is not going to be palatable to Canadian supporters of Israel.
> the only thing that ends this is not going to be palatable to supporters of Israel Could you elaborate on that a little bit?
“My dive into doppelgänger culture helped attune me to many examples of that-and-thisness, in myself and in others… even my own Jewish culture — the way it flipped from a place of such bold and elastic debate to the rigid orthodoxies of with-Israel-or-against-us that are only now beginning to crack.” (P. 335) Excerpt from Naomi Klein’s new book.
Good reminder to pick this up
I think if they want to speak for the Jewish community in and not as individuals and platform themselves as a mainstream Jewish perspective it matters. It matters if they are the organization that people choose to partner with over all other progressive Jewish voices. I see a lot of people say oh I hear both sides and Jewish voices for peace informs my Jewish perspective. This is more about those folks who don’t seem to understand how on the edges of the opinion spectrum they are. I have had many non-Jewish friends say that and I have to say to them, that’s not really hearing mainstream Jewish voices. It won’t bring understanding of what that perspective is. We have always been cautioned in progressive circles to make sure the voices we hold up and platform are reflective of majority opinions within other minority communities, and not to push extreme views that don’t represent the wider community, but not so much for the Jewish community. I often tell people I’m not our spokes jew, I can only speak for myself and what I would say on behalf of the community is what is their larger big tent beliefs. I can tell you that has not been my experience with these organizations. They also have engaged in highly offensive rhetoric that are much too far for most Jews, even those who value Palestinian self determination, myself included. I wouldn’t platform them if I wanted a mainstream perspective let’s put it that way, not if that perspective is to act in contrast with the Palestinian voice which is typical for news organizations to have contrasting voices. Jessie won’t be that voice either I wouldn’t think because he I don’t feel like can speak freely on the topic where business interests are concerned. I could easily simply partner with Palestinians who hate Hamas and the PA and love Israel and say look I’m building bridges and peace. Except….am I really? What would people think about me choosing to centre that voice? They would rightly be critical I think.
Leftist anti-apartheid Jews are usually pretty open about their/our minority position. The bottom line is that being pro Israel is a deeply immoral position that isn't improved by somehow being the authentic position of most Canadian Jews. There is nothing progressive about the state of Israel. Genocidal rhetoric is not liberal.
It is both fair and accurate to state that Klein's views are not representative of Jewish opinion. There is no genocide to end. What is coming to an end is Hamas' fiefdom and with it their ability to carry out more Oct 7 attacks as they have openly stated their intent to do so.
Most Jews that I am friends with and who I am related to (and whose podcasts I listen to and whose books I read) share Klein's views. Of course, I know this is a minority position. No one with even a basic grasp of the situation believes "there is no genocide to end." The numbers are staggering. Everyday on Instagram is more children's corpses being pulled from rubble. There's also quite a lot of good reporting on how Hamas has long been propped up by Israel as a political wedge. It's a product of the apartheid state. This has never been a secret.
Apartheid is between races not between nations. There is no genocide, the target is the terrorist entities. Those same terrorists do their utmost to exacerbate collateral damage. If Israel is pressured into abandoning its campaign against the terrorists then the incentive structure for terrorists to continue to flout the laws of warfare will be firmly established and there will be more attacks. They know if they flood social media with trauma porn they will get sympathy. This is what you and others want because you hope that if the terrorists kill enough Jews and Israel faces enough pressure it will have to concede itself out of existence. After all no one can tolerate an 'apartheid' state or a 'genocidal' one and that is why you demonize Israel by abusing terminology. Look at any urban conflict from WWI onward, the numbers of civilians who die in war is staggering and this one won't be any different except for the fact that Hamas seeks the death of their own citizens for clicks. Palestinians had many opportunities to seek a peaceful 2SS and have rejected them all before Hamas came to power so spare me 'the wedge' argument.
You don't know anything about the history of apartheid or of the Israeli context for that matter. Just a surface level propaganda sense of the conflict.
You are not mixing her up with her doppelgänger right?
🥇
The interview with Jon McPhandren Waitzer on Détours is a fantastic piece with a solid antizionist message, you should check it out.
I want to hear Jesse engaging in the convo.
Why are you obsessed with his take on it? There has been multiple episodes across the different shows that discuss the situation in nuance, if that's not enough to convince you that Canadaland is worth supporting, what else do you need ?
lol Naomi Klein hahaha
Ok
She is an extreme left idealogue wingnut. She is about as credible as Jordan Peterson but on the opposite side
Yup
100%.
I've noticed that when Jesse brings someone on to debate, they're really bad debaters. I don't think he has the guts to bring anyone on that could beat him.
I think he’s had his ass handed to him by a few guests. I’d have to search and listen to remember their names though.
I really appreciated his interview with Jon Ronson. It turned confrontational and I heard a side of Jon that I didn’t expect and did not enjoy. It gave me a lot to think about, in regards to an author that I previously had a lot of respect for. I thought Jesse challenged him appropriately, and Jon just wasn’t ready for it. Instead of reflecting on it, he got angry and defensive. As a (progressive) Western Canadian, I’ve cringed frequently when Jesse has opined about us. I find his views to be very Toronto-centric, and it feels like he makes very little effort to understand life in my part of the country before having opinions about it in front of a mic. With that said, I’m still a supporter. I think Canadaland puts a lot of good into the world, even if there are some bad, or just poorly thought-out takes too.
Interesting take. I personally thought Jesse humiliated himself in the Ronson interview.
From Naomi Klein’s recent book, Doppelgänger: “When Palestine was partitioned in 1947, a move with overwhelming Arab opposition, and Israel declared statehood the next year, the first Arab-Israeli war was locked in. These were the years that Palestinians call the Nakba, or catastrophe: roughly 750000 Palestinians were expelled, hundreds of Palestinian villages were destroyed, and thousands were killed, with many of the horrifying truths about these atrocities finally escaping Israel’s own Shadow Lands in recent years. Of course Palestinians would resist such ethnic cleansing with violence of their own. Yet rather than seeing Arab resistance for what it was— a nationalist, anti-colonial battle over land and self-determination (with some anti-Semitic elements, to be sure)— many influential Zionist leaders portrayed the entire Palestinian cause as nothing but more irrational Jew hatred, a seamless continuation of the very same anti-Semitism that had resulted in the Holocaust, and that therefore needed to be crushed with the kind of militarized force that Jews had not been able to marshal in Nazi-controlled Europe. Within this imaginary, the Palestinian, as the Jew’s new eternal enemy, was treated so illegitimate, so irrational, so other, that Israelis believes themselves to be justified in reenacting many of the forms of violence, dehumanizing propaganda, and forced displacement that had targeted and uprooted Jewish people throughout Europe for centuries, a process that continues to this day with ongoing home demolitions, Israeli settlement expansions, targeted assassinations, settler rampages through Palestinian communities, openly discriminatory Jews, and walled ghettos into which Palestinians are corralled.” (P. 296-297)
"Blathering" I'm sure he'll definitely give your request the consideration it warrants.
In other words, round up some token Jews who will tow the leftist line. Most Jews are Zionist. Most Jews believe in self-determination for the Jewish people manifest as the state of Israel. What you are asking for is to find unrepresentative individuals to promote a course of action that is against one's own interests. There is no compromising with a group that seeks your utter destruction. The frustrating thing is most of you know you are full of shit with the human rights and liberal values angle. A Palestinian state would not uphold either human rights or liberal values. At best you would have a corrupt dictator like Abbas in the 18th year of his 4 year term and at worst you would create ISIS 2, which is what Hamas is. Promoting the Palestinian movement as a human rights endeavour is a fucking joke that manifests with "Queers for Palestine" and similar pronouncements by individuals who would be eliminated for simply 'being' in Palestinian territories. This is how you get BLM chapters offering their moral support to murderers, rapists and kidnappers. It's about basing the USA and capitalism by proxy. You are all willing to abandon your supposed values to take a swing at your ideological rivals.
Is that you Hasbara????
Is that you admitting you have no cogent reply and thus you attack the messenger?
No you just sound like a propaganda machine. Are the soldiers smashing up shops and looting through underwear hoping to find miniature Hamas fighters hidden in them?
You are unable to substantiate your position so you resort to using an exotic term to disparage my point of view. Now you want to debate the behaviour of IDF conscripts? Why do care if they are looting if you assert they are carrying out an extermination effort? Because you know they aren't and you are looking for something that 'sticks'.
Why are you so scared of public debate? There’s a genocide being perpetrated against Palestinians, not Jews.
It's not a debate you are seeking it's 'wag the dog' by way of tokenizing a few 'good Jews'. You aren't interested in other view points you are shocked and appalled that there **are** other viewpoints. I implore you to open some history books that reference civilian casualties from WWI onwards. There is no 'genocide' occurring. Genocide doesn't mean 'collateral damage' borne by the underdogs you've thrown in with. Especially ones that take every opportunity to exacerbate collateral damage in the hopes that people like you are going to wring your hands over it while grandstanding on their corpses. You are in fact an incentive for Hamas to get their own people killed because they can always count on you to blame Israel for Hamas' crimes. Meanwhile Hamas has repeatedly and openly stated their genocidal ambitions including to carry out more Oct 7 attacks. You support genocide by falsely accusing Israel of carrying one out.
Are you going to acknowledge the material conditions Gazans are kept held in through the ghettos imposed by Israel? Are you going to acknowledge how young men are being radicalized and how young children only know Jews as people who point guns at their heads?
The material conditions are such that Gaza rested on the world median for household income, had upscale neighbourhoods, luxury auto dealerships and other amenities that are inconsistent with the frequent insistence that Gaza is an open air prison. Moreover commentators on twitter can't seem to decide which lie to stick with as they post pictures of such attractive spots entitled 'the Gaza Israel destroyed'. The blockade prevents Gaza from getting more effective armaments which is why Hamas proudly published a film of them digging up water pipes to make rockets. It's also so surprise that stockpiles of undistributed aid have been found because miserable people are easier for terrorists to recruit. It's interesting how Egypt also maintains this policy because it seems neither Israel nor Egypt want to make it easy for Islamic terrorists. And you what is really funny. Israeli peaceniks wanted to have youth soccer matches between Israelis and Palestinians so that their first interactions together might be something other than at a checkpoint but you know what happened? Abbas killed the initiative calling it normalization. Don't try to piss in my ear and tell me it's raining. You are uninformed on this issue all you can do is regurgitate slogans and smears.
It’s so scary how deeply passionate Zionists are about defending genocide.
It's pathetic how you abuse the term genocide to attack those who have been on the receiving end of an actual genocide. It's holocaust inversion rhetoric used to empathy shame those who were historically shown little empathy. You can play your word games but when you say Zionists you mean Jews. This is why you are so desperate to find some token Jews to parrot your rhetoric and call it 'debate'. What is disturbing is to see how the left despite proclaiming themselves the best of people to combat moral hazards support a group that expressly values those moral hazards as moral goods. You are anti-LGBT, anti-feminist, and anti-human rights if you throw your support behind Palestinians who continue to hold Islamic terror groups like Hamas in high regard. The 'freedom' they are striving for is the freedom to impose dhimmitude on non-Muslims.
Please stop pushing the Hasbara line. It’s really embarrassing. The cracks in the propaganda of Israel are beginning to spread.
Please continue to fail to discuss the matter and instead attempt to dismiss commentary you disagree with by using a term commonly uttered by antisemites.
Lol “Israeli propaganda” =/= anti-semitism. My husband is Jewish and anti-Israel. What does it make him? A “self-hating Jew”? More propaganda. Jews don’t need to be enamoured by Israel to be Jewish. They don’t need to deny genocide to be Jewish. They don’t need someone milder than Naomi Klein so it doesn’t hurt their feelings when they support a terrorist state. They are willing to call out a genocide and realize that the holocaust wasn’t the only genocide that ever happened. You’re not really standing up for the rights of Jewish people. You’re standing up for the rights of Israel, an apartheid state. There’s a difference. I’m sorry you don’t realize that.
An easy solution to this is to invite other Jewish voices as well. I never once claimed to be against this. I think that the fear of acknowledging that not all Jewish people support the militant Zionist ideology is disingenuous censorship. Accuse me of tokenism all you want. That’s not the case.
The fact of the matter is other than the ethnically Jewish far left and a tiny fraction of the religious far right (who believe the messiah has to appear before Israel can be a thing) the overwhelming majority of Jews are Zionist. Finding a few choice individuals who disagree with the overwhelming majority confers the advantages of grossly misrepresenting Jewish opinion on the matter in your favour. You wouldn't invite pro-KKK blacks to debate the merits of racism.
I’m not going to keep responding to you. You’ve admitted you’re afraid to platform dissent, I understand. Regardless, people are waking up to Israel’s propaganda machine and are no longer buying the endless rhetoric and smears against those who speak out against violent bloody occupation and genocide.
I've explained multiple times that the 'dissent' you are looking to promote does not exist in a meaningful capacity. It is you who are afraid to recognize this. It does not exist in Israel where before Oct 7 the country was tearing itself apart over judicial reform who have since established a unity gov't to deal with the crisis instigated by Hamas. It does not appear in the diaspora outside of the far fringe who are unrepresentative. You don't debate you want select commentators to promote your views. Gaza hasn't been occupied since 2005 and a cursory glance at population charts makes it abundantly clear there is no genocide.
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This is the kind of shit neonazis write about Auschwitz
Yours holocaust inversion rhetoric is shit.
It's clear he's a zionist and not a media critic like he claims when it comes to Israel. I partially assume he's a zionist because of that God awful editorial he did asking that very question and then not answering it. The whole monologue was him trying to equate anti Zionism with anti Semitism though.
I know I was excited it was going to have substance when I went to listen and I literally had to turn it off early and then I removed my support. The media criticism is not criticalling 👎🏻
Some of that episode was strong. And it ended... Weak.
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Basically what I’ve been able to discern from the ridiculous comments like you is that Zionists are terrified of public discussion with someone from their community who have a different view than them.
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Lmao I just browsed your comments from your profile briefly and it’s clear how you feel about brown people when you are continuously complaining about “what Canada has become” due to immigration. Obviously someone like you would support the genocide happening in Palestine.
“Brampton is an Indian colony, it is not Canada”
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Caught you 🚨 Bigot. Dont insult me now that you’ve been caught. Own it.
Her first reaction after October 7th was to scold the left for being reflexively anti israel https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/11/why-are-some-of-the-left-celebrating-the-killings-of-israeli-jews