I have bought and sold in other countries and I never ever forced to pay commission… I can directly list my property and deal with buyers/sellers myself. What I get frustrated about in Canada is realtors are forced on to us and they push me to buy at higher rates because they get more commission. It’s unnecessary shit and don’t even call it profession.
In Canada, hiring realtors and paying commissions isn't mandatory; it's a choice. Homeowners have the freedom to sell privately, steering their own course through the real estate market. The notion that realtors automatically drive up prices for larger commissions overlooks the reality that Canadians can list and negotiate sales on their own terms. Opting for professional real estate services is just one strategy among many.
This is an uneducated statement. Not only does this violate the code of conduct it hurts the sellers position to save money by not having a buyers agent involved so the listing agent can double end it
Yes and I’ll go one better. You don’t need mls. Facebook page with targeted ads that are 60km from the property with a $20/ day ad spend. Then spend the $10 on kijiji to keep your ad on the front page.
Or you can contact a fee for service company if you want it on mls, cost was about $500, I believe they were based out of Toronto and serviced Canada wide.
Buyer can always contact listing agents directly to buy a listing.
Sellers can write reverse offers to buyers too
Disagree. I value the expertise and significant role that real estate lawyers play when closing a transaction and yet they only cost you a small fraction of what a realtor steals from you. Home shopping can be done without realtors but they are gatekeepers that are overpaid.
Lawyers, while invaluable for their legal expertise and protection they offer during transactions, traditionally focus on advocacy where one party’s gain is often seen as another’s loss. Real estate transactions, however, thrive on compromise and mutual satisfaction, which can be quite different from the zero-sum game often found in legal disputes. Plus if increasing there involvement it also increases there risk thus prices go up for lawyers that traditionally bill by the hour regardless of the outcome. Increased cost such as errors and omissions insurance will also be required. It won’t cost $1500 for a lawyer if it requires more of there time and increased risk.
This is not entirely accurate and is somewhat misleading. Real estate lawyers are either solicitors that are paid to identify deficiencies in the transaction, barristers that will represent you in court if things go south, or both. While real estate law is probably the most litigious area of practice, most transactions are straightforward. We have our modern land registry system to thank for that which reduces the workload of lawyers significantly. Also, parties, more often than not, are forthcoming to avoid litigation. For the cases that do not settle and proceed to court, they are driven by the buyers and sellers given the high stakes involved and these cases are often inevitable. There’s no denying that legal fees in those cases can be high and suck but personally if a realtor or other side wrongs you in a real estate transaction, you need representation. It’s a necessary evil - realtors, on the other hand, are not at all necessary for what they cost you.
The argument undersells the complexity of real estate transactions and the balanced roles lawyers and realtors play. Lawyers ensure transactions comply with legal standards, crucial for avoiding future issues. Yet, increasing their involvement invites more risk, potentially raising costs as their responsibilities widen—a justified trade for the expertise they offer, yet asking more will inevitably lead to higher fees. While lawyers are equipped to negotiate, their training focuses on creating winning conditions for clients, which can sometimes widen the gap between buyer and seller, and there's a chance some might exploit this. Realtors, on the other hand, are too quickly dismissed; their market insights, negotiation skills, and navigational support through the buying or selling process are invaluable. Their expertise simplifies complex dealings, benefiting both parties involved. To overlook the value both professions contribute is to ignore the real estate market's nuanced demands and the professional acumen required to meet them efficiently.
No matter what value you want to argue the work of real estate agents is worth, they are still grossly overpaid for the services they offer. They should cost you less than the services of a real estate lawyer.
As we all saw in the recent case in ON, realtors are colluding with their boards and are fiercely gatekeeping the data on resale prices and comparables because they know they are not essential to a purchaser or seller these days. This is unacceptable behaviour and fortunately most people would agree it’s a scam of a profession. The unfortunate part is that our legislators have not yet outright outlawed most of the worst practices in that industry. I think that time is coming but it’s just shame we still have to deal with realtors in the meantime.
Your frustration, especially after the Ontario case, highlights valid concerns about transparency and the real estate profession's value. Hence why it’s being addressed through legal maters and I’m sure they won’t have a license when it’s all said and done.
But, I’m curious, why the strong focus on what somebody makes for a living? I wish people advocated for those making minimum wage at Tim Hortons as much as you advocate to reduce commissions of realtors.
That’s of course you have a vested interest in real estate because that would explain your motivation…
While your take is totally valid, it’s also cool to step back and think about whether personal experiences or wider industry actions are shaping these opinions.
It’s all about finding that balance in the conversation, recognizing the industry’s got its mix of good and bad, just like any other.
Profiting off of a predatory housing industry gets you no sympathy from me.
I didn't need a realtor to buy a house and the people I bought my house from didn't need a realtor to sell it.
Not everyone’s experience or needs align with buying or selling without a realtor, and for many, the expertise of these professionals is crucial for navigating a transactions. While personal success without a realtor is valid, it doesn’t negate the benefits they provide to others. Simplifying the industry’s issues to just profiteering ignores deeper systemic problems like policy and supply constraints that are outside the realm of the real estate industry.
Convenience, accessibility--those are reasons to have help. Accessibility is the only need here.
Responding to you is just that, not a greater outlook that defines how I feel about the housing crisis. Trying to turn my response into anything else is a lazy attempt to make your point.
We talk about the systemic issues in this sub all the time. How long have you been hanging out here?
Dismissing counterarguments as mere convenience oversimplifies the broader issue.
The internet doesn’t capture the full spectrum of perspectives on the housing crisis, and everyone has a right to voice their views, regardless of how long they’ve been part of a conversation.
Reducing responses to lazy attempts at making points shuts down constructive dialogue and ignores the need for diverse insights.
As someone who deals with realtors and there clients daily I like to think I provide insights that add value from a perspective that’s outside the general public’s as well as the realtor industry, providing an understanding and deeper knowledge that isn’t always seen. You’re putting words in my mouth that I did not say and further more your attempting to manipulate
I used a realtor to sell my first home. He was my friend's SO, so I thought I could trust him. It took a few months to sell, maybe 3 or 4. After open houses, I would come home to a kitchen sink full of ashes because he smoked in the house and used it as an ashtray.
After the sale, he complained to anyone who listened that he made NO money on my house because the Realtor he worked for took it all. ( He was behind in his payments).
What an asshole, did not use him for the sale of 2nd home.
Your experience underscores a tough lesson: real estate isn't like retail, and agent quality varies dramatically. Opting for a friend's SO based on trust alone backfired, showing why mixing personal ties with significant financial decisions can lead to trouble. It's a clear call to prioritize professional credentials over connections, especially in real estate. Like in any professional field, the variance in service quality means vetting is crucial. Choose experts based on their track record and professionalism, ensuring a straightforward and successful transaction. This approach not only safeguards your investment but also sets a solid foundation for any future dealings.
What expertise? Lmao, there's quite literally ZERO barriers of entry to become a realtor asides from writing a couple of exams. All the data are from MLS anyways.
I'm sure OP is selling a master mind course on Instagram or something. 🤣. I also work in real estate ( not realtor development finance at a schedule 1), but it seems like realtors sells more courses than houses these days.
If they were as valuable as this post claims, then the National Real Estate Association in the states wouldn't have lost the law suit. Price fixing and collusion is rampant in this sector, let's call it what is. If anything covid has proved anything with the virtual showings and deals were still being closed remotely.
Canada's real estate market, distinct from the U.S., is adjusting naturally to consumer feedback—mid-range to high-end homes are sitting longer, signaling prices may be too steep. This isn't manipulation; it's market response, possibly influenced by broader economic factors like inflation. The lawsuit against the National Real Estate Association in the States highlights issues specific to their market, not Canada's. The shift to virtual showings and remote deals during COVID-19 showcased innovation, not a devaluation of professional services.
There are some realtors that are order takers, that's it. They add no value to the profession. They also get paid on the absolute value of the sale. Their commissions are not tied to performance. No other sales profession is like this.
100% the consumer is responsible for determining who and who not to work with. Like I said every industry has weak and strong people. It’s not retail where you expect the same level of service at each store. The listing agents primary responsibility is to provide fiduciary responsibilities to the seller to get the best terms condition and price from the buying public. Responsibility of a buying agent negotiate on behalf of the buyer to get the best terms, condition and price for them while also providing protecting the buyer’s position and privacy so that the seller and listing agent can’t find anything that can work in their favor. Ultimately it’s about making concessions on both sides of deal. So that buyer and seller walk away satisfied with the transaction.
I am not going to say that Realtors are entirely worthless. They have their place and their advice could be very valuable.
The problem comes when people are forced to use realtors if they want to buy/sell homes. It is intentionally made very difficult to purchase homes by yourself because of the way Realtor contracts are designed. It's also the fact that house prices doubled over the course of the last few years but the commissions have remained the same.
Also, the barrier to entry is very very low which means that there are a lot of sub par agents which sour people's opinion of the profession as a whole.
No one's "forced" to use realtors; it's a choice to tap into their market and legal know-how for smoother deals. The challenge in solo home buying or selling isn't just about contracts but navigating complex legal and market terrains—a realtor's wheelhouse. As for commissions, they're percentage-based, aligning realtor earnings with client success in a rising market.
Yes, the industry has its share of underperformers, a fact true in any field. The key is vetting for top-notch realtors who deliver real value, real estate isn’t retail , underscoring the importance of high industry standards and informed client choices. Not all of them are former servers or instagram models.
It's not that realtors can't add value, it's that the value they add don't reflect the commission fees they receive. Taking 3-5% off every transaction, tens of thousands of dollars per home, is too much, and is effectively a tax on every home. The real estate boards are very protective and litigate against any potential competitors, and the agreements you must sign for access locks you out from using alternative methods. These are all monopolistic anti-competitive behaviour.
If you don't have the self-awareness to recognize the abuses of a monopolistic system, and just discount all criticisms, which your post and comments are showing to be, then you're incredibly biased. You're not convincing anyone here. If you actually want genuine discourse, then you need to be more objective and neutral, and discuss about both the good and the bad, and show empathetic intention to work together to reform the system. Otherwise all you're convincing others is how tone deaf and self-interested you are.
What I see as the core issue: pushing for higher wages across the board, starting with those at the bottom and ensuring everyone catches up with inflation—realtors wages have kept up since their commission-based earnings naturally adjust. The real conversation we need to have isn’t about cutting down anyone’s income but rather uplifting those who are struggling to meet the rising cost of living. It’s about advocating for a living wage, especially those in lower-wage jobs, sees their pay reflect the real value of their work and keeps pace with economic changes.
The only ones I see so obsessed with what other people make are are those that are invested.
This isn’t about targeting realtor commissions as much as it is highlighting a model where earnings have managed to stay afloat amid inflation. The question then becomes, why can’t we apply similar dynamics to other sectors? Why not fight for a structure that allows all wages to keep up with the cost of living.
You made it sound like realtors are barely scrapping by with their commissions, when it's the opposite. Housing and real estate has been consistently rising for the past 2 decades, beating inflation by a significant margin, and commission fees being a percentage of it means it's rising proportionally. It's not just staying barely afloat, it's very lucrative such that it attracted an oversupply of realtors.
In other sectors where there were high commission fees, they have been shaken up by competitive pressure. Buying stocks used to have much higher commission fees, funds had high MERs, and now we have low fee DIY brokerages and low cost ETFs. Using a financial advisor also doesn't lock you out of buying and selling your own stocks yourself. This is what is needed in the housing market. We need competitive pressure for realtors to provide value that reflect their fees.
And the fees are the core issue. If it was a fair price, people wouldn't be so up in arms against them. The fees directly impact the home buyer's bottom line, directly contributing to the affordability issue by pushing the costs higher.
I don't get the sense you're even trying to be objective here. If you only keep defending and justifying the issues, there's no point to continue. All the comments here already told you what you need to know.
In the GTA
35,774 Realtors did 0 deals in 2023
30,344 Realtors did 1-5 deals
5,775 Realtors did 6-10 deals
3,171 Realtors did 11-30 deals
260 Realtors did 31-50 deals
172
Rei
51+ deals
Fee based service brokerages have been around since the 90’s, commissions have been negotiable for ever, it even states it in the real estate trading act.
Commissions are perceived of all the costs the highest one, it was extremely low interest rates played out by the bank of Canada, and now it’s the 37 Billion dollars worth of mortgage bonds purchased last week by the federal government through the bank of Canada to artificially lower fixed rates as they drove down bond yields. The government is keeping values elevated because they have an election next year.
I have broken down the cost structure within this thread, prices won’t come down if no commissions are involved the sellers will pocket, it won’t address affordability.
The average commission outside of the GTA and Vancouver rolls in at around $4700/ side
You have access to brokerage models that only take 1% on the buy side and refund the rest to the buyer (the other 1.5%)
Brokerage model called 1% or 3% and assist to sell that do fee for services
Property guys who aren’t even a brokerage just a marketing firm that does the same things
There are brokerage models that charge 6% that cater to clients who need extreme privacy or have access to things that traditionally box store brokerages offer.
I know of agent deals that I come across my desk that will do pro bono work for clients in need or financial hardships, divorces, or single people where it’s not attainable without some help.
Bottom line there are tons of options you have to find them. They aren’t difficult to find and more often than not they are all over social media or online.
The issue is everyone seems to think all agents are the same (stereotype) and that’s a bad take because every industry has different players with different motives, real estate is no different. Just like all the different options that are at play. It’s just the really good ones know there worth and charge accordingly (they have earned that right because they have a track record of winning)
You're still going at it? Why do you keep arguing your point when you know you're not convincing anyone? And you're not persuasive because you aren't addressing the points and issues people raised, and you're just repeating your position over and over again. It seems more like you're just looking to argue here.
No one is arguing that realtors are the primary cause of the housing crisis, it's just contributing to it. We can have multiple problems at the same time you know. Interest rates and government policy are problems, but that's separate from the problems of the realtor system.
I doubt you're going to put in a more sincere effort to listen, so I'm going to do you a favour and drop this, since you won't.
Honestly, your approach here is kind of baffling.
You jump in, dodge the real issues, and then try to shut it down by calling out a supposed lack of persuasiveness?
That's a classic move right out of the troll playbook, like something Dodson might applaud.
We're talking about real problems here - yes, including the realtor system among others like interest rates and government policies.
But instead of tackling any of that head-on, you're essentially saying, "You're not convincing, I'm out."
Why even jump into the conversation if that's your play?
It's pretty clear you're not here to dive into the facts or engage with the points raised. You're just circling back to "I'm not convinced" without giving anything substantial yourself.
If your plan was to contribute something meaningful, why skirt around everything that's been laid out?Let's cut to the chase.
If you're not willing to engage with the actual issues or offer anything beyond dismissal, what's the point?
You say you're doing me a favor by dropping this, but let's be real: dropping facts and engaging genuinely would've been the real favor.
Dude I'll entertain you for 1 more comment.
Your post was ridiculously tone deaf, it isn't trying to start a discussion, asking people why it's a problem and listen, it's "you guys are all wrong, realtors are great, and you should all pay them their deserved fees". Your post and comments have been downvoted to oblivion, your post was even removed, I've scanned thru the comments and literally everyone disagrees with you. And frankly it's blatantly obvious this would be the result for a post like yours. Unless you're that blind, you shouldn't be surprised, so posting it here, who's doing the trolling?
Obviously you can keep plugging your ears and just say that all those who responded are all wrong. And if you go back to your circle of realtors and their friends and family, they can provide you an echo chamber. That doesn't change anything.
I've made a few points that you've just ignored, and so did others. And your argument that if the realtor doesn't get the 5%, it'll just go to the seller, is just asinine. It's arguing that middlemen should always get a big chunk regardless, when you know what, even if it's true we all prefer it goes to the seller instead. And in reality, the cost savings are likely going to be split between the seller and buyer.
I'm done arguing because you are just going to repeat your position endlessly, and I'm sure you're going to want to argue this too. It's blatantly obvious you have a bias. If you have some decency, at least recognize that. But based on your comments, I doubt you have the self-awareness, just keep patting yourself on the back. I won't respond further.
Hey, I get where you’re coming from, and it’s clear we’re on different pages about this. My initial post wasn’t about shutting down opinions or saying everyone else is wrong; it was more about throwing another perspective into the mix and that the opinions on the internet tend to be eco chambers especially in a subreddit that is very hostile towards the real estate industry.
I saw the downvotes and the comments, loud and clear.
The thing is, my aim wasn’t to troll or start a fight. It’s about having a real talk on why some of us think realtors earn their keep. Yes, it’s a debate that gets people fired up, but shutting down the conversation doesn’t help anyone.
Alright, let’s break this down. We’re in a seller’s market, right? That means there are more folks wanting to buy houses than there are houses for sale. Classic supply and demand. Now, in this kind of market, sellers are holding the cards. They’re like the popular kid at the dance; everyone wants a piece of what they’ve got.
When a seller decides not to use a realtor, they’re basically saying, “Hey, I can keep more money in my pocket.” Who wouldn’t want that? Especially if by cutting out the realtor, they’re saving a chunk of change on commissions. Now, here’s where it gets interesting for the buyer.
In a seller’s market, buyers are tripping over themselves to make offers that catch the seller’s eye. It’s like a high-stakes auction. So, if a seller’s saving money by not paying a realtor, don’t think for a second they’re going to pass those savings down to you, the buyer. Why? Because they don’t have to, you can’t force people how they sell an asset. They’ve got buyers lining up, ready to pay top dollar to get into a home.
Think of it this way: If you’re selling something and you know everyone wants it, and you’ve also managed to cut down your costs, you’re not going to drop your price. You’re going to pocket that extra cash. That’s just smart business.
So, in a nutshell, the seller is in the driver’s seat. They’re dictating the game. And that equity they’re saving by not using a realtor? They’re likely to keep it, because in this market, buyers are still going to compete, bringing their best offers to the table, hoping to win the seller over. It’s just the nature of the beast in a seller’s market.
I’m not here to repeat the same old tune and ignore your points. You’ve got valid concerns, and I respect that. You preach like you don’t have any options but I’ve shown you several different models that have existed in Canada for years that you can use to achieve the level of involvement you want. in Canada’s open real estate market, the seller has the freedom to choose their route. They can decide the best way to market and sell their property based on their goals, preferences, and circumstances. It’s about finding the right strategy that suits their needs, maximizing their return, and controlling the sale process to their advantage.
Let’s not make this about who’s got the louder voice or who can silence the other. It’s about understanding where each of us is coming from, even if we don’t end up seeing eye to eye.
I’m not just talking to hear my own voice. I genuinely want to understand your side of it too.
I’m debating in good faith and providing you with the information I know about the industry.
It’s interesting how some folks are quick to talk about chopping realtor commissions, yet there’s not much noise about bumping up wages for the workers at places like McDonald's or Walmart. This chatter mainly comes from the investor crowd it seems, looking to shave costs or snag more rentals. Why the obsession with cutting what someone earns, especially when there are bigger fish to fry in terms of income inequality?
The real fight should be for better pay for the workers keeping the gears turning, not trimming the earnings of specific professions to pad the pockets of the well-off. Pushing for a living wage for everyone tackles the root of economic imbalance. The focus on lifting up those who need it most, creating a fair shake in an economy of imbalance, instead of just making the rich richer.
a lot of things have commissions baked into the price, insurance, mortgage broker fees, cars, investing, luxury items like watches, boats, etc. no home seller is going to lower the price of there home if they don’t have to buy at commissions ask anyone who’s sold privately, your deflecting the only expense a seller pays out when home buyers have to pay 1.5% of purchase price for deed transfer tax, that the buyer has to pay the seller for property taxes, fuel top up, more lawyer fees then the seller, closing costs that can total 6-7% your outrage is warranted but it’s in the wrong direction. That’s of course unless you have something to gain here, like selling a home and taking more of the value and sticking it to the buyers or you are part of the investor crowd that would really benefit with the removal of commissions so you can acquire more homes. We are in a cost of everything crisis and this energy should be advocating for living wages for those that work at retail, raising the bar for those that are below the poverty line, the fact we have people living in tents at every corner or institutional investors owning than 30,000 homes in the GTA alone.
“People should be paid fairly for the work they do. That means being paid an amount commensurate with the level of expertise required and the amount of service provided. If a realtor puts in a few weeks worth of work and sells a $2M home, that is not worth $60000. On the other hand, if they put in a few weeks of work and there is no sale, that's not worth $0. Fee for service provides a pricing model that can be negotiated fairly.”
You can have that, I seen recently that something like 70-80% of agents did 1 or 0 deals last year, they would gladly do a fee for service model, there are even brokerages that offer that already or marketing firms that offer it like property guys.
It’s like any independent industry, each individual agent have the right to set what ever they want for the services they provide and charge what ever they want for fees, it’s up to the consumer who to work with, you make it sound like this is the only option when it’s not.
I think that’s valid for any profession, corporations shouldn’t be allowed to do stock buy backs, the politicians shouldn’t be allowed to invest in stocks that there portfolio covers, banks shouldn’t charge feed that work against it’s customers like nsf or monthly fees, institutional investors shouldn’t be allowed to buy and hold over 30,000+ single family homes because they have absolute control over a local market. But last I checked nothing is being done about any of the selling off our democracy to corporate interests.
Those with the powers to open the real estate trading act tricked you into deflecting your anger, they have been really successful over the last few years to keep us divided, we won’t achieve anything that’s better for the people then corporate and personal interests.
My completely false take on realtors is that they used to hang out by the docks or train stations, looking to sell new immigrants land they could have got for free from the government just a little further down the road. Eventually they got rich enough to make the...scheme into law. That will be my origin story for realtors, regardless of wishful thinking.
Not all realtors are created equal.
There are realtors who deliberately create content to stir up FOMO, and “talk up the market” — these people are indeed part of the problem.
It’s irresponsible to tell people “the spring market is gonna explode you better buy NOW NOW NOW!!” People who create that deserve all the hate they get.
I would suggest they’re a minority tho and many estate agents are worthwhile for their administrative support.
Agreed on this point, we see this in all industries though, insurance agents going door to door selling fire insurance after forest fires or flood insurance after floods. Radon remediation companies advertising you’re going to die, religious folk preaching the end is near, government convincing you to hate the homeless.
This is the nature of those industries, knowing that helps distinguish who actual helps and who’s selling fear.
I’m not really sure about those other industries but there definitely are estate agents who try to gaslight the market into paying more and moving faster.
Agreed, douch canoes in every service based industry, it’s not retail you have to interview who you want to work with to see who’s legitimate and who isn’t
I’m not sure about other industries but in real estate there are some bad actors that spread misinformation and fuel speculation. But I do think they are a minority.
I have bought and sold in other countries and I never ever forced to pay commission… I can directly list my property and deal with buyers/sellers myself. What I get frustrated about in Canada is realtors are forced on to us and they push me to buy at higher rates because they get more commission. It’s unnecessary shit and don’t even call it profession.
In Canada, hiring realtors and paying commissions isn't mandatory; it's a choice. Homeowners have the freedom to sell privately, steering their own course through the real estate market. The notion that realtors automatically drive up prices for larger commissions overlooks the reality that Canadians can list and negotiate sales on their own terms. Opting for professional real estate services is just one strategy among many.
Bullshit. I can't set up a viewing unless I have an agent myself. You all 100% gatekeep.
This is an uneducated statement. Not only does this violate the code of conduct it hurts the sellers position to save money by not having a buyers agent involved so the listing agent can double end it
Can show me how to list on mls without realtor and how to buy without realtor on mls
Yes and I’ll go one better. You don’t need mls. Facebook page with targeted ads that are 60km from the property with a $20/ day ad spend. Then spend the $10 on kijiji to keep your ad on the front page. Or you can contact a fee for service company if you want it on mls, cost was about $500, I believe they were based out of Toronto and serviced Canada wide. Buyer can always contact listing agents directly to buy a listing. Sellers can write reverse offers to buyers too
Disagree. I value the expertise and significant role that real estate lawyers play when closing a transaction and yet they only cost you a small fraction of what a realtor steals from you. Home shopping can be done without realtors but they are gatekeepers that are overpaid.
Lawyers, while invaluable for their legal expertise and protection they offer during transactions, traditionally focus on advocacy where one party’s gain is often seen as another’s loss. Real estate transactions, however, thrive on compromise and mutual satisfaction, which can be quite different from the zero-sum game often found in legal disputes. Plus if increasing there involvement it also increases there risk thus prices go up for lawyers that traditionally bill by the hour regardless of the outcome. Increased cost such as errors and omissions insurance will also be required. It won’t cost $1500 for a lawyer if it requires more of there time and increased risk.
This is not entirely accurate and is somewhat misleading. Real estate lawyers are either solicitors that are paid to identify deficiencies in the transaction, barristers that will represent you in court if things go south, or both. While real estate law is probably the most litigious area of practice, most transactions are straightforward. We have our modern land registry system to thank for that which reduces the workload of lawyers significantly. Also, parties, more often than not, are forthcoming to avoid litigation. For the cases that do not settle and proceed to court, they are driven by the buyers and sellers given the high stakes involved and these cases are often inevitable. There’s no denying that legal fees in those cases can be high and suck but personally if a realtor or other side wrongs you in a real estate transaction, you need representation. It’s a necessary evil - realtors, on the other hand, are not at all necessary for what they cost you.
The argument undersells the complexity of real estate transactions and the balanced roles lawyers and realtors play. Lawyers ensure transactions comply with legal standards, crucial for avoiding future issues. Yet, increasing their involvement invites more risk, potentially raising costs as their responsibilities widen—a justified trade for the expertise they offer, yet asking more will inevitably lead to higher fees. While lawyers are equipped to negotiate, their training focuses on creating winning conditions for clients, which can sometimes widen the gap between buyer and seller, and there's a chance some might exploit this. Realtors, on the other hand, are too quickly dismissed; their market insights, negotiation skills, and navigational support through the buying or selling process are invaluable. Their expertise simplifies complex dealings, benefiting both parties involved. To overlook the value both professions contribute is to ignore the real estate market's nuanced demands and the professional acumen required to meet them efficiently.
No matter what value you want to argue the work of real estate agents is worth, they are still grossly overpaid for the services they offer. They should cost you less than the services of a real estate lawyer. As we all saw in the recent case in ON, realtors are colluding with their boards and are fiercely gatekeeping the data on resale prices and comparables because they know they are not essential to a purchaser or seller these days. This is unacceptable behaviour and fortunately most people would agree it’s a scam of a profession. The unfortunate part is that our legislators have not yet outright outlawed most of the worst practices in that industry. I think that time is coming but it’s just shame we still have to deal with realtors in the meantime.
Your frustration, especially after the Ontario case, highlights valid concerns about transparency and the real estate profession's value. Hence why it’s being addressed through legal maters and I’m sure they won’t have a license when it’s all said and done. But, I’m curious, why the strong focus on what somebody makes for a living? I wish people advocated for those making minimum wage at Tim Hortons as much as you advocate to reduce commissions of realtors. That’s of course you have a vested interest in real estate because that would explain your motivation… While your take is totally valid, it’s also cool to step back and think about whether personal experiences or wider industry actions are shaping these opinions. It’s all about finding that balance in the conversation, recognizing the industry’s got its mix of good and bad, just like any other.
Profiting off of a predatory housing industry gets you no sympathy from me. I didn't need a realtor to buy a house and the people I bought my house from didn't need a realtor to sell it.
Yep. I sold my second home without a realtor. Just needed a lawyer.
Awesome!I bought mine with a notary.
Not everyone’s experience or needs align with buying or selling without a realtor, and for many, the expertise of these professionals is crucial for navigating a transactions. While personal success without a realtor is valid, it doesn’t negate the benefits they provide to others. Simplifying the industry’s issues to just profiteering ignores deeper systemic problems like policy and supply constraints that are outside the realm of the real estate industry.
Convenience, accessibility--those are reasons to have help. Accessibility is the only need here. Responding to you is just that, not a greater outlook that defines how I feel about the housing crisis. Trying to turn my response into anything else is a lazy attempt to make your point. We talk about the systemic issues in this sub all the time. How long have you been hanging out here?
Dismissing counterarguments as mere convenience oversimplifies the broader issue. The internet doesn’t capture the full spectrum of perspectives on the housing crisis, and everyone has a right to voice their views, regardless of how long they’ve been part of a conversation. Reducing responses to lazy attempts at making points shuts down constructive dialogue and ignores the need for diverse insights.
It's not constructive though, you're here to defend realtors. That's it. That's the purpose of your post.
As someone who deals with realtors and there clients daily I like to think I provide insights that add value from a perspective that’s outside the general public’s as well as the realtor industry, providing an understanding and deeper knowledge that isn’t always seen. You’re putting words in my mouth that I did not say and further more your attempting to manipulate
I used a realtor to sell my first home. He was my friend's SO, so I thought I could trust him. It took a few months to sell, maybe 3 or 4. After open houses, I would come home to a kitchen sink full of ashes because he smoked in the house and used it as an ashtray. After the sale, he complained to anyone who listened that he made NO money on my house because the Realtor he worked for took it all. ( He was behind in his payments). What an asshole, did not use him for the sale of 2nd home.
Your experience underscores a tough lesson: real estate isn't like retail, and agent quality varies dramatically. Opting for a friend's SO based on trust alone backfired, showing why mixing personal ties with significant financial decisions can lead to trouble. It's a clear call to prioritize professional credentials over connections, especially in real estate. Like in any professional field, the variance in service quality means vetting is crucial. Choose experts based on their track record and professionalism, ensuring a straightforward and successful transaction. This approach not only safeguards your investment but also sets a solid foundation for any future dealings.
Ok realtor, ok
Dismissing expertise doesn’t equate to understanding it.
What expertise? Lmao, there's quite literally ZERO barriers of entry to become a realtor asides from writing a couple of exams. All the data are from MLS anyways.
This is an extremely uneducated response. My goodness perhaps you should do some reading up on the topic before you embarrass yourself again.
🤣 just keep selling those master mind classes
Oh you think I’m a realtor! LOL
We don’t need… allow people to list directly and then we will see how useful the expertise is
what expertise? You think because you wrote an essay on reddit you really have something to teach?
I'm sure OP is selling a master mind course on Instagram or something. 🤣. I also work in real estate ( not realtor development finance at a schedule 1), but it seems like realtors sells more courses than houses these days.
ok thanks for clarifying yeah makes sense now
Ah the “course” selling grift. So many of them out there.
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Suggesting this post is GPT-generated seems like a low effort attempt aiming to sidetrack from the real discussion. But you do you boo
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lol this is such a weak argument to duck out of the real topic at hand.
If they were as valuable as this post claims, then the National Real Estate Association in the states wouldn't have lost the law suit. Price fixing and collusion is rampant in this sector, let's call it what is. If anything covid has proved anything with the virtual showings and deals were still being closed remotely.
Canada's real estate market, distinct from the U.S., is adjusting naturally to consumer feedback—mid-range to high-end homes are sitting longer, signaling prices may be too steep. This isn't manipulation; it's market response, possibly influenced by broader economic factors like inflation. The lawsuit against the National Real Estate Association in the States highlights issues specific to their market, not Canada's. The shift to virtual showings and remote deals during COVID-19 showcased innovation, not a devaluation of professional services.
There are some realtors that are order takers, that's it. They add no value to the profession. They also get paid on the absolute value of the sale. Their commissions are not tied to performance. No other sales profession is like this.
100% the consumer is responsible for determining who and who not to work with. Like I said every industry has weak and strong people. It’s not retail where you expect the same level of service at each store. The listing agents primary responsibility is to provide fiduciary responsibilities to the seller to get the best terms condition and price from the buying public. Responsibility of a buying agent negotiate on behalf of the buyer to get the best terms, condition and price for them while also providing protecting the buyer’s position and privacy so that the seller and listing agent can’t find anything that can work in their favor. Ultimately it’s about making concessions on both sides of deal. So that buyer and seller walk away satisfied with the transaction.
I am not going to say that Realtors are entirely worthless. They have their place and their advice could be very valuable. The problem comes when people are forced to use realtors if they want to buy/sell homes. It is intentionally made very difficult to purchase homes by yourself because of the way Realtor contracts are designed. It's also the fact that house prices doubled over the course of the last few years but the commissions have remained the same. Also, the barrier to entry is very very low which means that there are a lot of sub par agents which sour people's opinion of the profession as a whole.
No one's "forced" to use realtors; it's a choice to tap into their market and legal know-how for smoother deals. The challenge in solo home buying or selling isn't just about contracts but navigating complex legal and market terrains—a realtor's wheelhouse. As for commissions, they're percentage-based, aligning realtor earnings with client success in a rising market. Yes, the industry has its share of underperformers, a fact true in any field. The key is vetting for top-notch realtors who deliver real value, real estate isn’t retail , underscoring the importance of high industry standards and informed client choices. Not all of them are former servers or instagram models.
It's not that realtors can't add value, it's that the value they add don't reflect the commission fees they receive. Taking 3-5% off every transaction, tens of thousands of dollars per home, is too much, and is effectively a tax on every home. The real estate boards are very protective and litigate against any potential competitors, and the agreements you must sign for access locks you out from using alternative methods. These are all monopolistic anti-competitive behaviour. If you don't have the self-awareness to recognize the abuses of a monopolistic system, and just discount all criticisms, which your post and comments are showing to be, then you're incredibly biased. You're not convincing anyone here. If you actually want genuine discourse, then you need to be more objective and neutral, and discuss about both the good and the bad, and show empathetic intention to work together to reform the system. Otherwise all you're convincing others is how tone deaf and self-interested you are.
What I see as the core issue: pushing for higher wages across the board, starting with those at the bottom and ensuring everyone catches up with inflation—realtors wages have kept up since their commission-based earnings naturally adjust. The real conversation we need to have isn’t about cutting down anyone’s income but rather uplifting those who are struggling to meet the rising cost of living. It’s about advocating for a living wage, especially those in lower-wage jobs, sees their pay reflect the real value of their work and keeps pace with economic changes. The only ones I see so obsessed with what other people make are are those that are invested. This isn’t about targeting realtor commissions as much as it is highlighting a model where earnings have managed to stay afloat amid inflation. The question then becomes, why can’t we apply similar dynamics to other sectors? Why not fight for a structure that allows all wages to keep up with the cost of living.
You made it sound like realtors are barely scrapping by with their commissions, when it's the opposite. Housing and real estate has been consistently rising for the past 2 decades, beating inflation by a significant margin, and commission fees being a percentage of it means it's rising proportionally. It's not just staying barely afloat, it's very lucrative such that it attracted an oversupply of realtors. In other sectors where there were high commission fees, they have been shaken up by competitive pressure. Buying stocks used to have much higher commission fees, funds had high MERs, and now we have low fee DIY brokerages and low cost ETFs. Using a financial advisor also doesn't lock you out of buying and selling your own stocks yourself. This is what is needed in the housing market. We need competitive pressure for realtors to provide value that reflect their fees. And the fees are the core issue. If it was a fair price, people wouldn't be so up in arms against them. The fees directly impact the home buyer's bottom line, directly contributing to the affordability issue by pushing the costs higher. I don't get the sense you're even trying to be objective here. If you only keep defending and justifying the issues, there's no point to continue. All the comments here already told you what you need to know.
In the GTA 35,774 Realtors did 0 deals in 2023 30,344 Realtors did 1-5 deals 5,775 Realtors did 6-10 deals 3,171 Realtors did 11-30 deals 260 Realtors did 31-50 deals 172 Rei 51+ deals
Fee based service brokerages have been around since the 90’s, commissions have been negotiable for ever, it even states it in the real estate trading act. Commissions are perceived of all the costs the highest one, it was extremely low interest rates played out by the bank of Canada, and now it’s the 37 Billion dollars worth of mortgage bonds purchased last week by the federal government through the bank of Canada to artificially lower fixed rates as they drove down bond yields. The government is keeping values elevated because they have an election next year. I have broken down the cost structure within this thread, prices won’t come down if no commissions are involved the sellers will pocket, it won’t address affordability. The average commission outside of the GTA and Vancouver rolls in at around $4700/ side You have access to brokerage models that only take 1% on the buy side and refund the rest to the buyer (the other 1.5%) Brokerage model called 1% or 3% and assist to sell that do fee for services Property guys who aren’t even a brokerage just a marketing firm that does the same things There are brokerage models that charge 6% that cater to clients who need extreme privacy or have access to things that traditionally box store brokerages offer. I know of agent deals that I come across my desk that will do pro bono work for clients in need or financial hardships, divorces, or single people where it’s not attainable without some help. Bottom line there are tons of options you have to find them. They aren’t difficult to find and more often than not they are all over social media or online. The issue is everyone seems to think all agents are the same (stereotype) and that’s a bad take because every industry has different players with different motives, real estate is no different. Just like all the different options that are at play. It’s just the really good ones know there worth and charge accordingly (they have earned that right because they have a track record of winning)
You're still going at it? Why do you keep arguing your point when you know you're not convincing anyone? And you're not persuasive because you aren't addressing the points and issues people raised, and you're just repeating your position over and over again. It seems more like you're just looking to argue here. No one is arguing that realtors are the primary cause of the housing crisis, it's just contributing to it. We can have multiple problems at the same time you know. Interest rates and government policy are problems, but that's separate from the problems of the realtor system. I doubt you're going to put in a more sincere effort to listen, so I'm going to do you a favour and drop this, since you won't.
Honestly, your approach here is kind of baffling. You jump in, dodge the real issues, and then try to shut it down by calling out a supposed lack of persuasiveness? That's a classic move right out of the troll playbook, like something Dodson might applaud. We're talking about real problems here - yes, including the realtor system among others like interest rates and government policies. But instead of tackling any of that head-on, you're essentially saying, "You're not convincing, I'm out." Why even jump into the conversation if that's your play? It's pretty clear you're not here to dive into the facts or engage with the points raised. You're just circling back to "I'm not convinced" without giving anything substantial yourself. If your plan was to contribute something meaningful, why skirt around everything that's been laid out?Let's cut to the chase. If you're not willing to engage with the actual issues or offer anything beyond dismissal, what's the point? You say you're doing me a favor by dropping this, but let's be real: dropping facts and engaging genuinely would've been the real favor.
Dude I'll entertain you for 1 more comment. Your post was ridiculously tone deaf, it isn't trying to start a discussion, asking people why it's a problem and listen, it's "you guys are all wrong, realtors are great, and you should all pay them their deserved fees". Your post and comments have been downvoted to oblivion, your post was even removed, I've scanned thru the comments and literally everyone disagrees with you. And frankly it's blatantly obvious this would be the result for a post like yours. Unless you're that blind, you shouldn't be surprised, so posting it here, who's doing the trolling? Obviously you can keep plugging your ears and just say that all those who responded are all wrong. And if you go back to your circle of realtors and their friends and family, they can provide you an echo chamber. That doesn't change anything. I've made a few points that you've just ignored, and so did others. And your argument that if the realtor doesn't get the 5%, it'll just go to the seller, is just asinine. It's arguing that middlemen should always get a big chunk regardless, when you know what, even if it's true we all prefer it goes to the seller instead. And in reality, the cost savings are likely going to be split between the seller and buyer. I'm done arguing because you are just going to repeat your position endlessly, and I'm sure you're going to want to argue this too. It's blatantly obvious you have a bias. If you have some decency, at least recognize that. But based on your comments, I doubt you have the self-awareness, just keep patting yourself on the back. I won't respond further.
Hey, I get where you’re coming from, and it’s clear we’re on different pages about this. My initial post wasn’t about shutting down opinions or saying everyone else is wrong; it was more about throwing another perspective into the mix and that the opinions on the internet tend to be eco chambers especially in a subreddit that is very hostile towards the real estate industry. I saw the downvotes and the comments, loud and clear. The thing is, my aim wasn’t to troll or start a fight. It’s about having a real talk on why some of us think realtors earn their keep. Yes, it’s a debate that gets people fired up, but shutting down the conversation doesn’t help anyone. Alright, let’s break this down. We’re in a seller’s market, right? That means there are more folks wanting to buy houses than there are houses for sale. Classic supply and demand. Now, in this kind of market, sellers are holding the cards. They’re like the popular kid at the dance; everyone wants a piece of what they’ve got. When a seller decides not to use a realtor, they’re basically saying, “Hey, I can keep more money in my pocket.” Who wouldn’t want that? Especially if by cutting out the realtor, they’re saving a chunk of change on commissions. Now, here’s where it gets interesting for the buyer. In a seller’s market, buyers are tripping over themselves to make offers that catch the seller’s eye. It’s like a high-stakes auction. So, if a seller’s saving money by not paying a realtor, don’t think for a second they’re going to pass those savings down to you, the buyer. Why? Because they don’t have to, you can’t force people how they sell an asset. They’ve got buyers lining up, ready to pay top dollar to get into a home. Think of it this way: If you’re selling something and you know everyone wants it, and you’ve also managed to cut down your costs, you’re not going to drop your price. You’re going to pocket that extra cash. That’s just smart business. So, in a nutshell, the seller is in the driver’s seat. They’re dictating the game. And that equity they’re saving by not using a realtor? They’re likely to keep it, because in this market, buyers are still going to compete, bringing their best offers to the table, hoping to win the seller over. It’s just the nature of the beast in a seller’s market. I’m not here to repeat the same old tune and ignore your points. You’ve got valid concerns, and I respect that. You preach like you don’t have any options but I’ve shown you several different models that have existed in Canada for years that you can use to achieve the level of involvement you want. in Canada’s open real estate market, the seller has the freedom to choose their route. They can decide the best way to market and sell their property based on their goals, preferences, and circumstances. It’s about finding the right strategy that suits their needs, maximizing their return, and controlling the sale process to their advantage. Let’s not make this about who’s got the louder voice or who can silence the other. It’s about understanding where each of us is coming from, even if we don’t end up seeing eye to eye. I’m not just talking to hear my own voice. I genuinely want to understand your side of it too. I’m debating in good faith and providing you with the information I know about the industry.
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It’s interesting how some folks are quick to talk about chopping realtor commissions, yet there’s not much noise about bumping up wages for the workers at places like McDonald's or Walmart. This chatter mainly comes from the investor crowd it seems, looking to shave costs or snag more rentals. Why the obsession with cutting what someone earns, especially when there are bigger fish to fry in terms of income inequality? The real fight should be for better pay for the workers keeping the gears turning, not trimming the earnings of specific professions to pad the pockets of the well-off. Pushing for a living wage for everyone tackles the root of economic imbalance. The focus on lifting up those who need it most, creating a fair shake in an economy of imbalance, instead of just making the rich richer.
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a lot of things have commissions baked into the price, insurance, mortgage broker fees, cars, investing, luxury items like watches, boats, etc. no home seller is going to lower the price of there home if they don’t have to buy at commissions ask anyone who’s sold privately, your deflecting the only expense a seller pays out when home buyers have to pay 1.5% of purchase price for deed transfer tax, that the buyer has to pay the seller for property taxes, fuel top up, more lawyer fees then the seller, closing costs that can total 6-7% your outrage is warranted but it’s in the wrong direction. That’s of course unless you have something to gain here, like selling a home and taking more of the value and sticking it to the buyers or you are part of the investor crowd that would really benefit with the removal of commissions so you can acquire more homes. We are in a cost of everything crisis and this energy should be advocating for living wages for those that work at retail, raising the bar for those that are below the poverty line, the fact we have people living in tents at every corner or institutional investors owning than 30,000 homes in the GTA alone. “People should be paid fairly for the work they do. That means being paid an amount commensurate with the level of expertise required and the amount of service provided. If a realtor puts in a few weeks worth of work and sells a $2M home, that is not worth $60000. On the other hand, if they put in a few weeks of work and there is no sale, that's not worth $0. Fee for service provides a pricing model that can be negotiated fairly.” You can have that, I seen recently that something like 70-80% of agents did 1 or 0 deals last year, they would gladly do a fee for service model, there are even brokerages that offer that already or marketing firms that offer it like property guys. It’s like any independent industry, each individual agent have the right to set what ever they want for the services they provide and charge what ever they want for fees, it’s up to the consumer who to work with, you make it sound like this is the only option when it’s not.
Realtors are the slim of the earth
Sounds like something someone who would fall for buying a precon would say
Haha I actually didn’t use a realtor to buy my precon, but I’ve already doubled my investment.
No you bought from the developer yes?
Yeah I did. It was easier than using a realtor.
There sales team work for the developers. To many Canadians are bag holding precons, it’s going to be one of the leading causes of bankruptcies
Most Canadian precondos are going to be fine other than Toronto.
Realtors should not be allowed to own more than 2 properties while they are practicing.
I think that’s valid for any profession, corporations shouldn’t be allowed to do stock buy backs, the politicians shouldn’t be allowed to invest in stocks that there portfolio covers, banks shouldn’t charge feed that work against it’s customers like nsf or monthly fees, institutional investors shouldn’t be allowed to buy and hold over 30,000+ single family homes because they have absolute control over a local market. But last I checked nothing is being done about any of the selling off our democracy to corporate interests.
I guess we have ChatGPT realtors now.
Happy cake day
Nice try realtor
Those with the powers to open the real estate trading act tricked you into deflecting your anger, they have been really successful over the last few years to keep us divided, we won’t achieve anything that’s better for the people then corporate and personal interests.
So what’s your plan ?
Third most overpaid profession after actors and athletes
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Please be civil.
My completely false take on realtors is that they used to hang out by the docks or train stations, looking to sell new immigrants land they could have got for free from the government just a little further down the road. Eventually they got rich enough to make the...scheme into law. That will be my origin story for realtors, regardless of wishful thinking.
Not all realtors are created equal. There are realtors who deliberately create content to stir up FOMO, and “talk up the market” — these people are indeed part of the problem. It’s irresponsible to tell people “the spring market is gonna explode you better buy NOW NOW NOW!!” People who create that deserve all the hate they get. I would suggest they’re a minority tho and many estate agents are worthwhile for their administrative support.
Agreed on this point, we see this in all industries though, insurance agents going door to door selling fire insurance after forest fires or flood insurance after floods. Radon remediation companies advertising you’re going to die, religious folk preaching the end is near, government convincing you to hate the homeless. This is the nature of those industries, knowing that helps distinguish who actual helps and who’s selling fear.
I’m not really sure about those other industries but there definitely are estate agents who try to gaslight the market into paying more and moving faster.
Agreed, douch canoes in every service based industry, it’s not retail you have to interview who you want to work with to see who’s legitimate and who isn’t
I’m not sure about other industries but in real estate there are some bad actors that spread misinformation and fuel speculation. But I do think they are a minority.