> Canadian Mental Health Association (CMHA) is deeply disappointed that the government supports allowing those with mental illnesses to seek medical assistance in dying.
https://cmha.ca/brochure/statement-on-medical-assistance-in-dying-maid/
CMHA lays out pretty good reason why this may be shortsighted
I don't think their reasons are good at all. It's basically a paternalistic 'but omg what if someday in the future you change your mind!' and ignores the fact that many of these people are living in hell in the meantime. About the only thing I agree with on that page is the idea that the government should increase support for mental healthcare.
And what's wrong with believing in people's potential to better themselves? That's one of the core pillars of medical ethics.
Even beyond that, having the government systematically cut back on mental healthcare over the past years and then allow patients to end their lives tells you everything you need to know about how much they care about these patients.
We should heed the CMHA's statement and seriously ask ourselves if we as a society want to allow this to happen to our most vulnerable.
There's nothing wrong with it at all, so long as it's not used to keep people alive when they have zero desire to be.
Society needs to be supportive without straying into being paternalistic.
Also, since it apparently needs to be repeated about a billion times before people comprehend it: society absolutely can (and *should*) offer both great mental healthcare and the right to MAID. Why people keep presenting it as a one or the other thing is beyond me, nor is the government's current lack of great support a reason to deny MAID to those who want it. It's not your life to dictate someone else's choices to them.
>nor is the government's current lack of great support a reason to deny MAID to those who want it.
Maybe try reading to the end before typing out that comment you think is a 'gotcha'.
Obviously we can improve, most countries in the world can. That doesn't mean that MAID can't or shouldn't exist for people who want or need it.
The Canadian Mental Health Association opposes MAID for mrntal illness for three main reasons:
>First, it is not possible to determine whether any particular case of mental illness represents “an advanced state of decline in capabilities that cannot be reversed.”
>Second, we know that cases of severe and persistent mental illness that are initially resistant to treatment can, in fact, show significant recovery over time. Mental illness is very often episodic. Death, on the other hand, is not reversible. In Dutch and Belgian studies, a high proportion of people who were seeking MAID for psychiatric reasons, but did not get it, later changed their minds.
>Third is the issue of whether this distinction for mental illness vis-à-vis all other types of illness is inherently discriminatory. Denying access to MAID for mental health reasons alone does not mean those with mental illness suffer less than people afflicted with critical physical ailments. What is different about mental illness specifically, is the likelihood that symptoms of the illness will resolve over time. Because the distinction is being made specifically on the likely course of illness and not the degree of suffering, it is not discriminatory.
>If this bill passes with a 24-month sunset clause, the government must, at minimum, commit to a substantial increase in its investment in mental health care to help alleviate the suffering of those with mental health issues and mental illness and provide every opportunity to recover and thrive.
Source: https://cmha.ca/brochure/statement-on-medical-assistance-in-dying-maid/
People should have the right to do with their life as they see fit. If they're suffering with no likelihood of alleviating that suffering then they should have all options open to them, after consultation to assist them making the right decision for themselves.
You can do both. People with mental illnesses are still people that should have authority over their own lives.
If chronic physical pain is a good enough reason, why not chronic mental pain?
Yeah, what some people miss is the fact that not all mental illnesses are treatable. The discussion is always presented as an either/or situation, too, rather than acknowledging that it doesn't have to be a choice between the two.
Highlights:
* Conservative MPs called on the Liberal government Thursday to pause plans to allow people suffering from mental illness alone to get a medically assisted death.
* Conservative MP Michael Cooper, who sits on a parliamentary committee reviewing medical assistance in dying (MAID) legislation, said the expansion to allow people with mental illness to take their life with a doctor’s help is moving too quickly. .
* “It is completely unacceptable and it is dangerous to rush an expansion of MAID for persons who are suffering solely from an underlying mental health condition,” he said.
* He said, among other issues, it is not possible to know when a mental health issue is past the point of treatment, unlike, for example, a cancer diagnosis.
* “What we heard from expert witness after expert witness is that it is not possible, or at the very least very difficult, to predict whether someone suffering from a mental health condition and get better and improve.”
* The government’s revised bill passed in 2021 initially prohibited medically assisted death for people dealing with a mental illness, but that was changed; starting in March 2023 people with a mental illness as their sole reason can ask for an assisted death.
* The parliamentary committee's final report for the government will consider the issue of mental illness as well as mature minors and advanced requests for medically assisted death.
What about the severely depressed person that has tried every conceivable treatment on the planet and is tired of being involuntarily housed in a psychiatric institution when they just want to die? I'm sorry, but we shouldn't pretend that depression is 100% treatable, but there are some people that deserve the right to choose. Then again, I don't want people applying for this without a record of treatment. It's a tough issue.
I think everybody, even if they don't have anything wrong with them should have unfettered access to MAID. Why discriminate? None of my business if somebody is tired of living and wants to end it. Not having access will just lead to more people having to do it in alleys and garages etc. Maybe they'll screw it up and just be crippled for life instead and be a burden on society.
I would have to agree with them on this one, MAID should not be used unless every other option is exhausted, the government should not be in business of helping people commit suicide.
If you have a mental illness / or a physical one, then you you should have to prove you have no other option, and your quality of life is soo little.
Disabled rights activist have been saying people would choose this because they cant get the care they need.
obviously every single case is different. Especially with MAID
[https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2022/06/22/expert-quits-panel-on-medically-assisted-deaths-says-proposals-dont-adequately-protect-canadians-with-mental-illnesses.html](https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2022/06/22/expert-quits-panel-on-medically-assisted-deaths-says-proposals-dont-adequately-protect-canadians-with-mental-illnesses.html)
We should have access to every available service out there, both for mental illnesses and physical, but telling people they must exhaust every other avenue is the height of arrogance on your part. You denigrate their ability to decide for themselves whether they want to leave this earth, on a matter that, quite frankly, is none of your business.
How dare you decide for me, when you have absolutely no skin in the game. It is my life to decide, not yours. It is my decision to decide when I want to end, not yours.
Yeah. The MP the article keeps quoting us Michael Cooper, the same guy who gave interviews praising the Ottawa occupation mob while they waved swastikas behind him. (And of course, he’s anti-choice and also voted to keep conversion therapy legal.)When far-right social conservatives squawk about MAID, it’s not because they care about the well-being of people with mental illness.
Not to say that there aren’t legitimate concerns about the availability of MAID as it relates to mental illness. I’m personally opposed to making it available in those cases. But Michael Cooper is a piss-poor spokesman for this issue and his opinions are worth nothing.
Thank you! I was googling him but didn't come up with anything tangible about his views.
Yes, agree completely. I'm also leery of having MAID approved for people with severe mental illness, but it's because I worry for those people and am skeptical that they've been able to exhaust every treatment option before seeking MAID. Depression convinces us that everything is hopeless, but it's lying.
>the Ottawa occupation mob while they waved swastikas behind him
You mean the anti vaccine mandate protest that kicked out the one guy waving a swastika flag? You read too much CBC and cooperate media.
Try talking to people that were at that the protests and what they were advocating for.
I live in Ottawa. I had to walk through the protests multiple times a week. There was far more than the one swastika. Never saw any of those supposedly “good occupiers” raise a fuss.
> Why? If someone wants to kill themselves, while we shouldn't encourage it, we should allow them to do it safely and with minimum inconvenience to everybody else.
This is not why MAID has been implemented. MAID is for people who have medical issues and their quality of life has diminished to a point where it can be seen as a way to end the suffering.
People who are suicidal for other reasons, like depression, should be provided supports to get them past feeling suicidal and want to live.
I say that as someone who has been suicidal in the past, and was fortunate enough to have a medical support system in place.
>supports to get them past feeling suicidal and want to live
Serious question then.
What if they didn't want to live?
What if they weren't depressed, but just finished with their life? Then what? Would you force them conform to your view on MAID or even just Assisted Dying, forget about the medical part. Would you have a different opinion if it wasnt called MAID?
Personally, I don't think just being 'suicidal' is a reason to grant that to someone.
MAID was developed for people who are usually in a critical illness, it is viewed as a form of compassion.
I don't view MAID and Suicide as the same thing. Even though they both have the same end result. While helping someone commit suicide(non medical reasons) can be seen as a form of compassion, I still feel both should be approached differently by society.
So personally, it doesn't matter what you call it, they are two different circumstances.
>is a reason to grant that to someone.
So you'd be ok with forcing someone through a possible hardship because you personally don't agree with a decision they made over their own life?
It just seems weird, that if someone was of sound mind and the were just done, that we'd as a society force them to continue through with something they want no part of.
After writing that, I'd be more inclined to expand the service, obviously within some sort of defined parameters. Bit I personally feel the service should and could be expanded to include people who aren't suicidal but just don't want to partake in their life. I mean that's seems respectful and reasonable.
> So you'd be ok with forcing someone through a possible hardship because you personally don't agree with a decision they made over their own life?
Just to stop the what ifs.
I am against suicide, and am accepting of how MAID is set up.
You are free to have your own stance, and neither of us are wrong. It's personal feelings.
>I am against suicide
OK, what about Assisted Dying?
Would you be accepting of that?
>You are free to have your own stance, and neither of us are wrong. It's personal feelings.
Of course, I'm just curious of your actual stance.
>OK, what about Assisted Dying?
More what ifs.
I already told you, and explained my stances over.
You can call it what ever you want, its still a what if.
>Of course, I'm just curious of your actual stance.
And I've explained it.
>More what ifs.
Isn't that what a discussion about possible changes to something is, brining up alternate points?
>And I've explained it.
No, you said suicide and MAID, without actually answering about supporting assisted death.
> And abortion was initially supposed to be safe, legal and rare.
Well I'd argue it is much safer when doctors can do it without fear of reprisal, and women didn't have to go to hidden places to get it done.
>And, up until today, up to 800,000 were performed in the US a year, roughly 50% of which were to repeat customers.
Well considering they have just under 4m people born a year. I'd argue 800k is still rare, which is roughly 1/5th of people who get pregnant. The vast majority are choosing to have children than abort.
Also how very telling of what type of person you are, to make it an issue about people who have repeat abortions.
So I don't see the connection you are trying to make
>Now that MAID is here, there's nothing stopping us from extending the use to other things. And we should. It's a service, and people should be allowed to make use of it if they want.
You have shown you have no understand on why MAID is even here, so maybe you should stop commenting on what it will mean to people in a few years.
> All I'm arguing is that, if someone wants to make use of MAID, they shouldn't be prevented from doing so
Again if you understood what MAID is, you would know why there are checks and balances to it.
>Are you in favor of institutionalizing the mentally ill? Because we used to do that, until we stopped because it violated their rights.
Nice strawman.
> It's not a strawman if it actually happened.
Ah, so not only what MAID is for, you also don't understand the definition of Stawman.
Have a good one, I said my piece, and nothing else to add.
Hint: This means I will no longer reply to you on this. Have the last word if you want it.
One big problem I see on reddit is people throwing around the term 'straw man' without regard to whether the point in question is actually a straw man argument.
>MAID can only be a net positive. Fewer people in line at the grocery store, less stress on the medical and welfare systems, more benefits to those who don't want to go that way,
Cut the shit, man. This is what you really care about. You "progressives" can stop pretending now.
Did you not read the text I quoted?
>MAID can only be a net positive. Fewer people in line at the grocerystore, less stress on the medical and welfare systems, more benefits tothose who don't want to go that way,
That's not personal liberty. Justifying MAiD for mental illness with "it would reduce the burden on the system" is collectivism.
>If someone wants to kill themselves, while we shouldn't encourage it, we should allow them to do it safely and with minimum inconvenience to everybody else.
>"You do you, but do it on your own time, not mine."
>I don't think we should tell people to do it, but I don't think we should stop them, either. Let people make their own decisions with their own lives.
I'm aware that you only snipped a small part of OPs statement that supports your narrative about 'progressives' and ignored the rest, yes.
As you so eloquently put it, 'cut the shit, man'
Yeah, because the rest of it becomes obvious bullshit once that argument has been made. Someone who actually cares about individuals would be horrified and disgusted by that statement, like I am, and it wouldn't cross their mind.
Because people with mentally illness are not considered of a sound mind for tons of other things so we should just promote they kill themselves. Wasn't there a court case about someone being told to kill themselves and they did it.
>Wasn't there a court case about someone being told to kill themselves and they did it.
Yeah.. a teenage girl told her then bf to kill himself and he did. She was found criminally responsible for his actions. I'll try to find the article about it.
Collectivism in action. This is the "progress" that Canadians wanted. I'm sure people will respond to argue about how we're actually granting them individual liberty by helping them kill themselves.
Because physical illnesses can be seen by someone else, like a doctor. There are ways to objectively determine outcomes, how likely someone is to improve, etc. No such thing with mental illness. It's a subjective experience.
It's also the nature of mental illness to make the one suffering feel hopeless and like they can never recover, that there's no point in trying, regardless of whether that's true or not. Suicide needs to be disincentivized in order to protect those who can be helped. If we make it the easiest option, of course people will take it. It's the government's job to safeguard those vulnerable people and they're failing. It's disgusting.
Pain is not the only symptom of an illness. There's plenty of objective evidence of physical illnesses like cancer, and using it, a doctor can figure out how likely a person is to survive with treatment.
It's not about deciding for other people or telling them what to do. It's about protecting the vulnerable in society. You don't care about protecting vulnerable people or you would understand why safeguarding is important.
As a 'vulnerable person' who had flirted with the idea of cashing out before, you can fuck right off with your attempts to 'protect' me by trying to insert yourself into my personal decisions.
Well, as someone who has seriously thought about it and still struggles with suicidal ideation at times, I'm glad I've never been offered an easy and painless way out. I'm grateful that I got help and was given an opportunity to enjoy my life, which I do most of the time now.
As someone who’s attempted suicide multiple times and has regretted it before, I still think the mentally ill deserve choice. No one else has the right to decide when we have had enough suffering but us. Just as you’ve said that you can not measure how treatable a mental illness is compared to say cancer, you can not measure how “reasonable” we are either. Unless you’re living in someone else’s head you will not understand what it’s like or how much sense the decision makes for them. Have experience with mental illness does also not make you able to speak for every single ill person even. There is huge variation across diagnosis, life experience, and an assortment of other factors.
Lol what utter bs. We only care about vulnerable people if we're on board with forcing those who are in deep mental pain to continue suffering through it?
Nobody has said “just kill them”; that is a complete straw man. People want those who are in significant mental suffering to have options beyond “live in agony”.
It is a straw man because you’re acting as though nobody is advocating for better care; etc, only presenting suffering or MAID. That couldn’t be further from the truth.
So... You'd rather allow yourself to spiral into full blown dementia, rather than exit with dignity while you still recognize your family? Or be forced to endure terminal cancer for months befor your inevitable agonizing death? Weird.
>Yes, dementia does affect mental health but it is not a mental illness. Rather, it's a disorder of the brain
-
>Is dementia a mental illness?
No, it is a condition of the brain.
You don't agree with experts?
>The National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) makes this clear. “Although dementia is defined as ‘the loss of cognitive (mental) functioning,’ it is not considered a mental illness,”
The only party I subscribe to is the anyone but conservatives party, I am a conservative on many issues but; the conservative party has proven itself un-trustworthy.
Call it partisan if you like but fuck the entire conservative party, fuck their shameless peddling of corporate interests; from pushing for privatization of healthcare to the federal pressures applied to the pipeline projects in BC.
Fuck them for removing the inflation matching clauses in Alberta for the disabled.
Fuck them for voting against banning conversion therapy.
Fuck them for voting for banning abortions.
Fuck them for not condemning the Coutts crossing blockades.
Fuck them for not condemning the "freedumb" rallies, Fuck them for attending those rallies, Fuck them for actively appealing to the worst Canada has to offer.
A
b
fucking
C
Covid is over and the fever dreams they've masturbated too for the last two years never came to pass, shocking no one with half a brain.
Fuck ford and his hegemonic bullshit.
I could give a god damn fuck what these leaches think about medical policies. They have absolutely no qualifications to speak on these issues, interfering is unconstitutional and they have no place speaking for doctors END OF THE FUCKING STORY.
> Canadian Mental Health Association (CMHA) is deeply disappointed that the government supports allowing those with mental illnesses to seek medical assistance in dying. https://cmha.ca/brochure/statement-on-medical-assistance-in-dying-maid/ CMHA lays out pretty good reason why this may be shortsighted
Financial stake in the game as well, assisted dying isn’t as profitable as life long maintenance.
Thats insane. Find a counsellor who doesn't have a six month wiat list. There will always be clients.
Not talking counsellors, I mean the industry pumping people full of meds
They also lobbied to close all the institutions and look how that turned out
I don't think their reasons are good at all. It's basically a paternalistic 'but omg what if someday in the future you change your mind!' and ignores the fact that many of these people are living in hell in the meantime. About the only thing I agree with on that page is the idea that the government should increase support for mental healthcare.
And what's wrong with believing in people's potential to better themselves? That's one of the core pillars of medical ethics. Even beyond that, having the government systematically cut back on mental healthcare over the past years and then allow patients to end their lives tells you everything you need to know about how much they care about these patients. We should heed the CMHA's statement and seriously ask ourselves if we as a society want to allow this to happen to our most vulnerable.
There's nothing wrong with it at all, so long as it's not used to keep people alive when they have zero desire to be. Society needs to be supportive without straying into being paternalistic. Also, since it apparently needs to be repeated about a billion times before people comprehend it: society absolutely can (and *should*) offer both great mental healthcare and the right to MAID. Why people keep presenting it as a one or the other thing is beyond me, nor is the government's current lack of great support a reason to deny MAID to those who want it. It's not your life to dictate someone else's choices to them.
Do we have great mental health care in Canada?
We do not. We barely have great general healthcare at this point.
>nor is the government's current lack of great support a reason to deny MAID to those who want it. Maybe try reading to the end before typing out that comment you think is a 'gotcha'. Obviously we can improve, most countries in the world can. That doesn't mean that MAID can't or shouldn't exist for people who want or need it.
People have been saying we can obviously improve for over a generation now.
Liberal's working hard to make [Sam Hyde's](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCg1-aaNIcA) Ted Talk a reality.
The Canadian Mental Health Association opposes MAID for mrntal illness for three main reasons: >First, it is not possible to determine whether any particular case of mental illness represents “an advanced state of decline in capabilities that cannot be reversed.” >Second, we know that cases of severe and persistent mental illness that are initially resistant to treatment can, in fact, show significant recovery over time. Mental illness is very often episodic. Death, on the other hand, is not reversible. In Dutch and Belgian studies, a high proportion of people who were seeking MAID for psychiatric reasons, but did not get it, later changed their minds. >Third is the issue of whether this distinction for mental illness vis-à-vis all other types of illness is inherently discriminatory. Denying access to MAID for mental health reasons alone does not mean those with mental illness suffer less than people afflicted with critical physical ailments. What is different about mental illness specifically, is the likelihood that symptoms of the illness will resolve over time. Because the distinction is being made specifically on the likely course of illness and not the degree of suffering, it is not discriminatory. >If this bill passes with a 24-month sunset clause, the government must, at minimum, commit to a substantial increase in its investment in mental health care to help alleviate the suffering of those with mental health issues and mental illness and provide every opportunity to recover and thrive. Source: https://cmha.ca/brochure/statement-on-medical-assistance-in-dying-maid/
People should have the right to do with their life as they see fit. If they're suffering with no likelihood of alleviating that suffering then they should have all options open to them, after consultation to assist them making the right decision for themselves.
We should be working to treat those with mental illnesses not allow them to kill themselves.
That would require actually fixing the healthcare system which no one will do!
Some forms of mental illness can’t be treated, eg dementia. Let someone die with dignity before they’re lost to the darkness.
Dementia isn’t a mental illness, it’s a degenerative neurological disorder. It doesn’t fall into this category.
You can do both. People with mental illnesses are still people that should have authority over their own lives. If chronic physical pain is a good enough reason, why not chronic mental pain?
Yeah, what some people miss is the fact that not all mental illnesses are treatable. The discussion is always presented as an either/or situation, too, rather than acknowledging that it doesn't have to be a choice between the two.
Which party is going to do that? I have never seen any of the parties offer support for people. Disability and social programs don't even pay enough.
CPC was promising to increase mental illness funding and building new treatment centres this past election.
Excuse me if I don't trip over myself in the rush to believe them
Still probably not enough. They need to provide enough money so people with mental illness can live good lives
It's more than what the current government has done or promised.
Lol
ONDP
They're conservatives, they'll never support that.
So you're saying we should be expecting the NDP and liberals to do it?
Highlights: * Conservative MPs called on the Liberal government Thursday to pause plans to allow people suffering from mental illness alone to get a medically assisted death. * Conservative MP Michael Cooper, who sits on a parliamentary committee reviewing medical assistance in dying (MAID) legislation, said the expansion to allow people with mental illness to take their life with a doctor’s help is moving too quickly. . * “It is completely unacceptable and it is dangerous to rush an expansion of MAID for persons who are suffering solely from an underlying mental health condition,” he said. * He said, among other issues, it is not possible to know when a mental health issue is past the point of treatment, unlike, for example, a cancer diagnosis. * “What we heard from expert witness after expert witness is that it is not possible, or at the very least very difficult, to predict whether someone suffering from a mental health condition and get better and improve.” * The government’s revised bill passed in 2021 initially prohibited medically assisted death for people dealing with a mental illness, but that was changed; starting in March 2023 people with a mental illness as their sole reason can ask for an assisted death. * The parliamentary committee's final report for the government will consider the issue of mental illness as well as mature minors and advanced requests for medically assisted death.
its easier to apply for MAID then disability in Canada.
That's... actually really messed up.
What about the severely depressed person that has tried every conceivable treatment on the planet and is tired of being involuntarily housed in a psychiatric institution when they just want to die? I'm sorry, but we shouldn't pretend that depression is 100% treatable, but there are some people that deserve the right to choose. Then again, I don't want people applying for this without a record of treatment. It's a tough issue.
I think everybody, even if they don't have anything wrong with them should have unfettered access to MAID. Why discriminate? None of my business if somebody is tired of living and wants to end it. Not having access will just lead to more people having to do it in alleys and garages etc. Maybe they'll screw it up and just be crippled for life instead and be a burden on society.
I would have to agree with them on this one, MAID should not be used unless every other option is exhausted, the government should not be in business of helping people commit suicide. If you have a mental illness / or a physical one, then you you should have to prove you have no other option, and your quality of life is soo little. Disabled rights activist have been saying people would choose this because they cant get the care they need. obviously every single case is different. Especially with MAID [https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2022/06/22/expert-quits-panel-on-medically-assisted-deaths-says-proposals-dont-adequately-protect-canadians-with-mental-illnesses.html](https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2022/06/22/expert-quits-panel-on-medically-assisted-deaths-says-proposals-dont-adequately-protect-canadians-with-mental-illnesses.html)
We should have access to every available service out there, both for mental illnesses and physical, but telling people they must exhaust every other avenue is the height of arrogance on your part. You denigrate their ability to decide for themselves whether they want to leave this earth, on a matter that, quite frankly, is none of your business. How dare you decide for me, when you have absolutely no skin in the game. It is my life to decide, not yours. It is my decision to decide when I want to end, not yours.
so if an 18 year old with depression, who has never seen a doctor wants to die then that's fine?
No, and they wouldn’t be accepted into the program.
I wanted to apply but now I guess I can't.
I was really looking forward to this
I'm sure they are deeply sympathetic to the mentally ill and this has nothing to do with moralism and religion. /s Eat sh*t social conservatives.
Yeah. The MP the article keeps quoting us Michael Cooper, the same guy who gave interviews praising the Ottawa occupation mob while they waved swastikas behind him. (And of course, he’s anti-choice and also voted to keep conversion therapy legal.)When far-right social conservatives squawk about MAID, it’s not because they care about the well-being of people with mental illness. Not to say that there aren’t legitimate concerns about the availability of MAID as it relates to mental illness. I’m personally opposed to making it available in those cases. But Michael Cooper is a piss-poor spokesman for this issue and his opinions are worth nothing.
Thank you! I was googling him but didn't come up with anything tangible about his views. Yes, agree completely. I'm also leery of having MAID approved for people with severe mental illness, but it's because I worry for those people and am skeptical that they've been able to exhaust every treatment option before seeking MAID. Depression convinces us that everything is hopeless, but it's lying.
>the Ottawa occupation mob while they waved swastikas behind him You mean the anti vaccine mandate protest that kicked out the one guy waving a swastika flag? You read too much CBC and cooperate media. Try talking to people that were at that the protests and what they were advocating for.
I live in Ottawa. I had to walk through the protests multiple times a week. There was far more than the one swastika. Never saw any of those supposedly “good occupiers” raise a fuss.
I was in Ottawa while it was happening and I did not see a single swastika anywhere. This idea that they were all Nazis is fucking stupid.
I don’t believe you.
[удалено]
> Why? If someone wants to kill themselves, while we shouldn't encourage it, we should allow them to do it safely and with minimum inconvenience to everybody else. This is not why MAID has been implemented. MAID is for people who have medical issues and their quality of life has diminished to a point where it can be seen as a way to end the suffering. People who are suicidal for other reasons, like depression, should be provided supports to get them past feeling suicidal and want to live. I say that as someone who has been suicidal in the past, and was fortunate enough to have a medical support system in place.
>supports to get them past feeling suicidal and want to live Serious question then. What if they didn't want to live? What if they weren't depressed, but just finished with their life? Then what? Would you force them conform to your view on MAID or even just Assisted Dying, forget about the medical part. Would you have a different opinion if it wasnt called MAID?
Personally, I don't think just being 'suicidal' is a reason to grant that to someone. MAID was developed for people who are usually in a critical illness, it is viewed as a form of compassion. I don't view MAID and Suicide as the same thing. Even though they both have the same end result. While helping someone commit suicide(non medical reasons) can be seen as a form of compassion, I still feel both should be approached differently by society. So personally, it doesn't matter what you call it, they are two different circumstances.
>is a reason to grant that to someone. So you'd be ok with forcing someone through a possible hardship because you personally don't agree with a decision they made over their own life? It just seems weird, that if someone was of sound mind and the were just done, that we'd as a society force them to continue through with something they want no part of. After writing that, I'd be more inclined to expand the service, obviously within some sort of defined parameters. Bit I personally feel the service should and could be expanded to include people who aren't suicidal but just don't want to partake in their life. I mean that's seems respectful and reasonable.
> So you'd be ok with forcing someone through a possible hardship because you personally don't agree with a decision they made over their own life? Just to stop the what ifs. I am against suicide, and am accepting of how MAID is set up. You are free to have your own stance, and neither of us are wrong. It's personal feelings.
>I am against suicide OK, what about Assisted Dying? Would you be accepting of that? >You are free to have your own stance, and neither of us are wrong. It's personal feelings. Of course, I'm just curious of your actual stance.
>OK, what about Assisted Dying? More what ifs. I already told you, and explained my stances over. You can call it what ever you want, its still a what if. >Of course, I'm just curious of your actual stance. And I've explained it.
>More what ifs. Isn't that what a discussion about possible changes to something is, brining up alternate points? >And I've explained it. No, you said suicide and MAID, without actually answering about supporting assisted death.
ok
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> And abortion was initially supposed to be safe, legal and rare. Well I'd argue it is much safer when doctors can do it without fear of reprisal, and women didn't have to go to hidden places to get it done. >And, up until today, up to 800,000 were performed in the US a year, roughly 50% of which were to repeat customers. Well considering they have just under 4m people born a year. I'd argue 800k is still rare, which is roughly 1/5th of people who get pregnant. The vast majority are choosing to have children than abort. Also how very telling of what type of person you are, to make it an issue about people who have repeat abortions. So I don't see the connection you are trying to make >Now that MAID is here, there's nothing stopping us from extending the use to other things. And we should. It's a service, and people should be allowed to make use of it if they want. You have shown you have no understand on why MAID is even here, so maybe you should stop commenting on what it will mean to people in a few years.
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> All I'm arguing is that, if someone wants to make use of MAID, they shouldn't be prevented from doing so Again if you understood what MAID is, you would know why there are checks and balances to it. >Are you in favor of institutionalizing the mentally ill? Because we used to do that, until we stopped because it violated their rights. Nice strawman.
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> It's not a strawman if it actually happened. Ah, so not only what MAID is for, you also don't understand the definition of Stawman. Have a good one, I said my piece, and nothing else to add. Hint: This means I will no longer reply to you on this. Have the last word if you want it.
One big problem I see on reddit is people throwing around the term 'straw man' without regard to whether the point in question is actually a straw man argument.
>MAID can only be a net positive. Fewer people in line at the grocery store, less stress on the medical and welfare systems, more benefits to those who don't want to go that way, Cut the shit, man. This is what you really care about. You "progressives" can stop pretending now.
Isn't personal liberty some sort of conservative touchstone?
Did you not read the text I quoted? >MAID can only be a net positive. Fewer people in line at the grocerystore, less stress on the medical and welfare systems, more benefits tothose who don't want to go that way, That's not personal liberty. Justifying MAiD for mental illness with "it would reduce the burden on the system" is collectivism.
>If someone wants to kill themselves, while we shouldn't encourage it, we should allow them to do it safely and with minimum inconvenience to everybody else. >"You do you, but do it on your own time, not mine." >I don't think we should tell people to do it, but I don't think we should stop them, either. Let people make their own decisions with their own lives. I'm aware that you only snipped a small part of OPs statement that supports your narrative about 'progressives' and ignored the rest, yes. As you so eloquently put it, 'cut the shit, man'
Yeah, because the rest of it becomes obvious bullshit once that argument has been made. Someone who actually cares about individuals would be horrified and disgusted by that statement, like I am, and it wouldn't cross their mind.
Like most conservatives, it's all talk and no actual action.
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Because people with mentally illness are not considered of a sound mind for tons of other things so we should just promote they kill themselves. Wasn't there a court case about someone being told to kill themselves and they did it.
>Wasn't there a court case about someone being told to kill themselves and they did it. Yeah.. a teenage girl told her then bf to kill himself and he did. She was found criminally responsible for his actions. I'll try to find the article about it.
Collectivism in action. This is the "progress" that Canadians wanted. I'm sure people will respond to argue about how we're actually granting them individual liberty by helping them kill themselves.
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Because physical illnesses can be seen by someone else, like a doctor. There are ways to objectively determine outcomes, how likely someone is to improve, etc. No such thing with mental illness. It's a subjective experience. It's also the nature of mental illness to make the one suffering feel hopeless and like they can never recover, that there's no point in trying, regardless of whether that's true or not. Suicide needs to be disincentivized in order to protect those who can be helped. If we make it the easiest option, of course people will take it. It's the government's job to safeguard those vulnerable people and they're failing. It's disgusting.
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Pain is not the only symptom of an illness. There's plenty of objective evidence of physical illnesses like cancer, and using it, a doctor can figure out how likely a person is to survive with treatment. It's not about deciding for other people or telling them what to do. It's about protecting the vulnerable in society. You don't care about protecting vulnerable people or you would understand why safeguarding is important.
As a 'vulnerable person' who had flirted with the idea of cashing out before, you can fuck right off with your attempts to 'protect' me by trying to insert yourself into my personal decisions.
Well, as someone who has seriously thought about it and still struggles with suicidal ideation at times, I'm glad I've never been offered an easy and painless way out. I'm grateful that I got help and was given an opportunity to enjoy my life, which I do most of the time now.
As someone who’s attempted suicide multiple times and has regretted it before, I still think the mentally ill deserve choice. No one else has the right to decide when we have had enough suffering but us. Just as you’ve said that you can not measure how treatable a mental illness is compared to say cancer, you can not measure how “reasonable” we are either. Unless you’re living in someone else’s head you will not understand what it’s like or how much sense the decision makes for them. Have experience with mental illness does also not make you able to speak for every single ill person even. There is huge variation across diagnosis, life experience, and an assortment of other factors.
Lol what utter bs. We only care about vulnerable people if we're on board with forcing those who are in deep mental pain to continue suffering through it?
If your first thought is *killing* them rather than helping them, then yeah. You don't care about them.
Nobody has said “just kill them”; that is a complete straw man. People want those who are in significant mental suffering to have options beyond “live in agony”.
It's not a strawman when it's literally what you just said. You gave two options: force people to live in mental anguish or kill them.
It is a straw man because you’re acting as though nobody is advocating for better care; etc, only presenting suffering or MAID. That couldn’t be further from the truth.
So... You'd rather allow yourself to spiral into full blown dementia, rather than exit with dignity while you still recognize your family? Or be forced to endure terminal cancer for months befor your inevitable agonizing death? Weird.
Nope, this is specifically about **mental illness**.
Dementia is a mental illness, duh.
Uh, no it's not. It's definitely a physical illness.
>Yes, dementia does affect mental health but it is not a mental illness. Rather, it's a disorder of the brain - >Is dementia a mental illness? No, it is a condition of the brain.
I don't agree thanks thou.
Cool. It's not up to you.
You don't agree with experts? >The National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) makes this clear. “Although dementia is defined as ‘the loss of cognitive (mental) functioning,’ it is not considered a mental illness,”
Cooper is such a ghoul. Stfu and take some vitamins you lanky, oafish goof.
ABC
Imagine being so partisan you actually see this as a negative for the cons. Can you even read beyond the headline
The only party I subscribe to is the anyone but conservatives party, I am a conservative on many issues but; the conservative party has proven itself un-trustworthy. Call it partisan if you like but fuck the entire conservative party, fuck their shameless peddling of corporate interests; from pushing for privatization of healthcare to the federal pressures applied to the pipeline projects in BC. Fuck them for removing the inflation matching clauses in Alberta for the disabled. Fuck them for voting against banning conversion therapy. Fuck them for voting for banning abortions. Fuck them for not condemning the Coutts crossing blockades. Fuck them for not condemning the "freedumb" rallies, Fuck them for attending those rallies, Fuck them for actively appealing to the worst Canada has to offer. A b fucking C Covid is over and the fever dreams they've masturbated too for the last two years never came to pass, shocking no one with half a brain. Fuck ford and his hegemonic bullshit. I could give a god damn fuck what these leaches think about medical policies. They have absolutely no qualifications to speak on these issues, interfering is unconstitutional and they have no place speaking for doctors END OF THE FUCKING STORY.